Contact First: Creating the Conditions for Transformation with Matthew Broderick

Georgina and Allard are joined by Matthew Broderick, a coaching psychologist with RocheMartin who works with leaders and teams across Europe, the US, Africa, and the Middle East. With a passion for emotional intelligence and behaviour change, Matthew brings a deeply relational perspective to the conversation.

Together, they explore the significance of contact and how genuine connection shapes coaching and leadership. The discussion reflects on how meaningful change depends on the relational ground we create—and how our inner state influences what becomes possible in the room. Inspired by the writings of John O’Donoghue, the conversation weaves together presence, emotional intelligence, and authentic human connection.

You’ll discover:

• Why meaningful transformation starts with genuine contact. 
• How a coach or leader’s inner state influences team dynamics and outcomes. 
• The role of emotional intelligence in deepening awareness and behaviour change. 
• Why connection and relational safety are essential for growth and learning. 
• Insights inspired by the work of John O’Donoghue and the power of presence. 

This episode offers a rich reflection for coaches and leaders seeking to work more consciously, relationally, and authentically—recognising that what we bring into the field shapes what can emerge from it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Teams Transformed, the podcast for people who want to see real team transformation.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

For courageous coaches, curious leaders, and anyone passionate about unlocking the true power of Teams.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

We your hosts, Georgina and Alard. Here to journey with you through transformational insights on how to coach teams with presence, depth, and emergence.

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Let's explore not just the tools, but the art of transforming teams.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Hello, welcome back everyone. In this episode, we have the enormous pleasure of sitting down with the Matthew Broderick. Not the other one, the Matthew Broderick.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

And we have the most amazing conversation about contact and the significance of contact and what contacting can evoke in our work.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

And it's so, it's so obvious from this conversation that there's no real meaningful change or transformation without the right relational ground, without the right amount of contact.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

And we also dip into how our internal state affects what's happening on the external. And therefore, what's possible is hugely informed by our internal state as coaches and as leaders and what we bring into the field.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

And we've got the visit of John O'Donohue. At least some of his thinking, that is. It's a beautiful conversation. We've loved it.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

And it sounds like it's going to be part one of at least two parts with Matthew. So watch this space for the second part if you enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Enjoy everyone. Matthew Broderick.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Welcome, Matthew. Great to see you after all this time.

SPEAKER_04 1:37

Thank you, Georgina. It's a real treat to be with you and Hunter today.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

And where are you today?

SPEAKER_04 1:45

I am in my office in my home office in the Upper West Side of Manhattan in New York City.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Hence the American accent, Matthew. Yep. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:56

I just fit right in here with the locals. Yeah, I've lived here with my family in New York for four, nearly four and a half years, and just getting ready to move back to Dublin soon.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:09

How about that?

SPEAKER_01 2:11

It's wonderful to see you again. And like we said, when we when we connected just a few minutes ago, um it's it on the one hand it feels like two seconds ago. And but I but but I know that it's been uh quite a bit, um it's been quite a bit more, so it's it's really wonderful to reconnect. I echo what Georgina was saying.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Yeah. Matthew, um, I'm sure the listener would like to know a little bit about you. What what would you like to share?

SPEAKER_04 2:35

Um well, I think in my well, my in my practice as well as in my in my life as a as a coach and team coach and psychologist, I think I the value that always comes to the fore is connection. Um I just really deeply value connection with people, and I think it shapes my practice, and it probably shapes what I pay attention to. Um and and and it's and I think it's a strength, uh, although sometimes maybe it can be an Achilles heel, but maybe talk about that later. But um, yeah, I value connection and and and not only the connections I have with people, I something sparks in me when I see two people in connection with each other. I I there's something that just sparks that that dynamic watching that um when two people are are in in contact with each other. So that's one thing. Um I I spend a lot I work a lot in in the whole field of emotional intelligence. And um I suppose I I suppose I have a I'm deeply fascinated by how the internal affects the external. Um there's a the Irish um, I don't know what I call him, the Irish mystic, the Irish major philosopher John O'Donahu, a wonderful writer, he talks about the ones your your interior landscape. And that really captures me that we have all have this landscape inside us, just waiting to be discovered. And in my practice, I suppose I'm I'm interested in how that that internal bit affects the external. So I suppose it's an awareness, um knowing ourselves. Um and then maybe lastly, I my I feel like my practice is kind of very global at the moment. I mean by that is I I'm here in North America um and I work with people from here all the way across to Japan. And partly that's some circumstance and family circumstance uh moving around. But um I was only thinking about this yesterday. I um there are differences, there are absolutely cultural differences. We express emotion differently and we relate to each other a little bit differently, but from my perspective, anyway, I also see great commonalities. Um the need to be understood, the need for contact, the desire to try to collaborate. So that's been a reflection that's come up. My practice feels global, uh, and seeing some of the commonalities that what makes us human has been quite thrilling, actually. There's a couple of things about me, my work, or about what I what I'm thinking about often.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Wonderful. Um, I already notice sitting here being with you, Matthew, how um how much how how open you are. We talk about being energetically available, how how the doorway is open with you, open-hearted. And um what I don't encounter with you is you walking in with a head on a stick, you know, and not uh talking about uh concepts in an abstract or theoretical way. You you arrive instantly seeking and creating contact. So there's something about you, I really resonate with that bit about your interior landscape. There's something about you and your presence that arrives in that in this open way, and I'm sure that has an impact on the field and uh on people you work with. Um, I'd I'd love to explore with you, and this is all about moments of emergence. Uh I'd love to explore with you if there's any particular moment or moments that come to mind that when um when something shifted, when something significant seemed to happen.

SPEAKER_04 6:58

Yeah, I um yeah, there was this lovely moment um uh a couple of weeks ago actually. Very so this is very recent. Um I was in a a supervision session and I was talking with my supervisor about an upcoming engagement with a group, and I was I remember saying the word weight, and oh I just felt that word weight, the the weight of something. And she asked me very pointedly, um do you do a check-in? And I you know, uh the first reaction is of course I do a check-in, you know, yeah. Like I've been in I've been in so many um different scenarios of check-ins, but actually when I stopped to think about it, what she was uh really asking me was you a check-in as a structural component of the coaching. Uh a structural component as a way to start help the team start making contact. Not just as a thing you do at the start, because that's what you do when you're in the field. So I had to I had to kind of fess up and and think about, you know, say, yeah, you know what, you're right. I I let me think about that a bit more. I went in the second day, it was a two-day engagement. But a lot of uncertainty about how the first day had gone. What was landing for people, what wasn't. And I just I said, okay, I said I'd love to um I'd love to ask a bit of a check-in question. I'd love to ask what landed for everyone yesterday. What landed for you, what made impact for you? And I'd love to hear from everyone in the group. So um that that became a moment of emergence for a number of wonderful ways. First of all, it it really did the the structure of it and and giving it the space, it it helped people get into contact with each other, first of all, because people kind of listened to each other, so people were hearing each other out and building on what they were what each other were saying. Yeah, you felt that, I felt that too. Um, so that was one thing, but it also helped me make contact with them because I kind of had to slow down a bit, and I I I I felt more in contact with the with the people, so it wasn't just them in contact with each other, it was about what was I was experiencing. Um what also emerged was and I couldn't have ever known this, was I I a lot of things landed for people that I just wouldn't have ever known by not doing this check-in. So I I actually felt very encouraged by the things people said, by the things that were that emerged. And so I kind of was able to be more at ease, I think. Um and then the final thing that emerged was great energy because we kind of we land, we arrived, but we stopped. We listened to each other. And the energy really lifted. It's like we were, it's like it's it's tap tapping into that. We tapped into some positive emotion and some anti contact, I think, just and it it uh it you know it it lifted the energy of the room and it took the conversation in a different direction. Um so that that and then I suppose probably it it's a moment of emergence for me seeing it in action. And I often sometimes think the insight you have to have the insight, and then the action comes. You you develop the insight and then you do the thing. But what if you act and then the insight comes? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yeah, it's um I feel reluctant to come in because I've because I'm so happy just sitting here and and listening to you and and uh and and yeah, and receiving the your full expression. And you mentioned uh John O'Donnell right at the beginning of of the conversation. And I just wanted to go back there real quick because John O'Donnell was many things, right? Was a poet, philosopher, was or I don't know if he was a priest until the very end, or had been a priest at least. So there was a real mystical, that word mystical, again, there was a real mystical connection there. And and when I hear you uh speak about contact and connection and unity, and there I I feel that there's a mystical component to to the way in which you you in your lived experience with contact and all that. Do you is that where am I am I reading something in some of the things?

SPEAKER_04 12:00

Oh, you've got that you put your finger on. It is, it's it's deeply mystical for me. I it's it's deeply there's just I suppose you you walk into organizations and you walk into teams and even just for meeting people, and there's a there's a kind of a always a kind of a mask and a and a type of language, and we're talking about our tasks and responsibilities, and but when you get beyond that and to just see the whole person, the person as a human being, um and when you and I said, but this is this is the diploma, this is really the diploma now. This really brought things together for me. When we talked about Martin Buber's Ai Dow, and it's not just the eye down, it's what is birthed, um what is born in the connection, the possibility of what emerges from that connection. That's the mystical element for me. Because you have one person over here, you know the person here, but when when the contact comes together, you know, so I'm always feeling that, and then I and I have to sometimes I'm I'm not dialing it back, but you're you're just a you know, you you gotta meet people where they're at. But even just a check, even just kind of being intentional. That was the word intentional with a check, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Yeah. Hey Matthew, um some people will be listening, not watching this podcast. And um sitting here with you, I noticed as you were talking there something shifting, something moving through you. What was your what was happening in your internal experience in that last minute or so?

SPEAKER_04 13:55

These are powerful concepts. Um but I think I I ultimately I think I'm just I'm I I the vocational part of what I do as a coach and team coach is about you know helping people change and and so I'm interested in that question of how change happens. And when I think about the possibility of how contact can facilitate change, um when maybe thinking about it like when we showed up in that room and we made contact, we were ready to then do some work together. So it it it slowed people down. It got us thinking about, you know, well, what is landing for me? So we're thinking, we're we're thinking internally, we're thinking about our you know, we're we're becoming more aware. And that it's that awareness that leads to the change. So, you know, when I when I was saying that about the Martin Buber, I just that that was Yeah, that that has now really settled for me. It's it's what uh it's the possibility of but he's he said all real living is encounter. All real living is encounter. So and and I I heard you say, I remember you said, Georgina, on the diploma. Um we said we often go to the strategic, don't we? In our but but it's it's making space for the relational. I I'm not sure if I'm getting that completely right, but I it really was a shift for me. We often our focus is often on the strategic, but what could emerge if we focus on the relational? Something to that extent has stuck with me.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Yeah, it's almost like the the like the renate the relational is the soft stuff, right? It doesn't really matter. If there's time left over, we'll do some relating at the end of the session when we all hit the bar or something. But right now, let's let's yeah, but right now let's focus on on the strategic and the tactical stuff at hand and work through this agenda. And and when I yeah, and it feels like when I hear you talk, you you make such you make such a powerful case for the opposite to be true, you know, that there's you know, there's got to be a strong relational ground for anything strategic to even have a chance to happen. And there's got to be real contact for any transformation to happen. Otherwise, it's just going through the motions.

SPEAKER_04 16:30

Um absolutely. And you know, I notice a little bit of self-consciousness in me. Just to name that, because I'm thinking these people that are gonna be listening to this and thinking this is he's just talking, as you say, that's just soft. But I I'm getting, I'm, I'm, I'm seeing more and more actually. No, this is it's not just about being warm and fuzzy. It really, it's that relational ground that seems to make real impact in in doing good work together, in becoming the we. And becoming more confident in that, I suppose. In br in giving voice to it, in advocating for it. That this is not just as you say, Alan, like not just the aside at the end of the day after the real work is it kind of is the work.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Contact and awareness is the work. Uh not um not absorbing a cognitive model of team performance that takes us outside of ourselves and outside of contact with each other. For me, it's not there. It's in what's what's the potential of this moment, that generative potential that's sparked by authentic contact between people. I think it's probably not dissimilar to you know, leadership people have talked about for years that people are hired for their skills or their knowledge or their IQ. But but what gets in the way, or what they're fired for, or what they or what they leave an organization for, is their incapacity to make contact, healthy relational contact, positive, generative relational contact, authentic contact with others. So um I'm not surprised you're a little bit shy of this in a way, Matthew. I feel that because it's not the language of organizations. Um, but that's I think that's why there's such a need. And um, you know, when I think back to the landscape of team team development, um 30 years ago, research was saying that less than 20% of teams are effective. And research is still saying that. In fact, some research I read now says less than 10%. So the dial's not going up, it's potentially going down. Even with AI, loads of team diagnostics, loads of research into what make team what makes teams effective. But we're not gonna change it by doing the same old workshops that that we've been doing for years. We're gonna change it, I think, by being more able to represent and to be available, to be with complexity, to to be able to hold tensions and and to be able to hold love for each other, open heartedness for each other, humanity. Yeah, and you represent that beautifully.

SPEAKER_04 19:53

Yeah, I can't get over that thing that it's possibly less i it 30 years ago it was 20%, it's possibly 10% now.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Yeah, it's a lot of work to do. Relational work, eye thou work to do.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

But but yeah, because it's not easy. This con you know, we we we we speak of contact and eye thou relationships as if they were just a simple choice. And for a lot of in a lot of organizations they're they're they're they're not. Um Georgina and myself, we we were doing a keynote the other day for a coaching organization, and we didn't call it contact. We ended up talking about contacting, like the gerund, right? The ing verb, like contacting, this this ongoing process of checking in with ourselves and with each other to make sure that we're in contact or out of contact. And then we and and and that you cannot talk about contacting without all the all those different interruptions to contact that happen. And and how it's not just it's not just your choice or my choice or Georgina's choice to turn the contact on magically, but how the field, how the context that we're in the field of the or you know, the overall culture of the organization, how all that has an impact on the amount of contact and the amount of contacting that we're able to muster, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

And Matthew, um I think when we were talking um before we started to record this episode, um I think you were saying that there are there's there's a number of different moments that we could talk about today. Is there something else that that builds from this that's uh Zalad was saying about you know contacting? I love that link.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

Yeah, always be contacting. Um I know Matthew.

SPEAKER_01 21:57

That's that's good. I think of this, it just yeah, that's very good. Trademark that trademark AB ABC always be contacting. Contacting.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Well, that's really what it's about, isn't it? It's you know, I I I talked about there the check-in, but you know, it didn't stop there. The contacting didn't stop there, just it's building on it. But you're you know, you're right, it's not easy. And I was thinking there as well, um what you were saying, Alert, you know, interruptions to contact, and there was an um a moment, another moment, um a different setting. I was working with a team, and we were having, I think it must have been early on in our engagement, so maybe session two, and we were talking about something like um um the purpose of the team or what we val what we value being why do what do I value about being on this team, right? And and one person went and they shared and they said I val I I value, she didn't say the words contact, but that's what she was getting at. I value being doing this work with other people. I love learning from people, I love growing with people. So for me, I I just I wanted to be on a bigger team like this one so that I can um so so that I can be in contact. So she she values that. And then the next person went and they said something very different. They said, for them, being on a team is is about getting the tasks done. It's about um it's about being managed by a manager, it's about um and and also I I I get I get the relational elements in different parts of the organization. So that those were said side by side, and someone else shared. Now that in itself was a moment of emergence because in the next 15 minutes the energy just dipped. And this is online, by the way, which is interesting that you can get a sense of the energy of a team when you're in on Zoom. Yeah, oh my goodness. Now I was in turn talking about interior landscapes, I was just thinking about how I intervene, what what I I'm I'm noticing something. And there was a lot, it wasn't, it wasn't, there was a lot of talking around these two comments, but these were the figural ones. And so I you know, this is this is all learning for me, so this is all just I my mode, I I I engaged mode three, and I said, Look, I paused, I said, um, I've just noticed a real dip in the energy in the last 15 minutes. Has anyone else noticed that? Yes, absolutely. There was a lot of nodding. And so so that so that that from that moment, we and it wasn't even from me, somebody said, Okay, let's just take a pause. Okay, we've got a there's a lot of values that have been talked about, different values. Um, why don't we use the a tool? Why don't we experiment? I didn't say experiment, but essentially that's what they were doing. Let's do a little experiment. We put all the values that we've been talking about on a zoom whiteboard, and and so um in that moment, um there was that shifted the energy. So, and we and actually we ended up seeing that this team is more on the same page than than we originally thought. But and and we were able to then take that work of just a bit of reflective, quiet work, and um and from there think about almost how we're gonna meet in the middle here with these essentially these two positions. Now, so that was in it that that's what emerged, but the deeper stuff for me was it happened afterwards, so as it always does. I was talking with the team leader and he said, What did you actually notice? He asked me pointedly, What did you really notice? And I said, Well, I noticed when that person said basically they they don't value as much the the relational elements of being on this team, and he said, I wish you'd said that. And just that the deeper moment of emergence was about what I was learning as a team coach to name name the phenomenon, just to say it. Almost, I don't know, is this engaging more mode too? But look, this is what I'm observing. You said one thing, you said the other, and and I've just noticed the energy did as a result of that. Um, but I I kind of you know, so that in a way that is that was a moment of emergence for me. Yeah, um, and and you know, I will I it probably goes back a little bit to the connection of so much of what I do is in service of connection. I was probably thinking in the moment, I don't know if I want to put this person on the spot, and or maybe it was um maybe it's just a little bit of avoidance, you know. We we talked about the paradoxical theory of change. I have turned that theory over in my head for about six months. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't, but I probably there was probably a part of me that avoided that a little bit because it was uncomfortable. But the part the whole idea of just accepting what is look, people aren't on the same page. That's okay. We don't that's okay. Let it let it be and name give language to it. So that's a long, a bit of a long answer for you there, but they there was a moment of emergence from the mo what happened in the room, but the deeper thing was the learning that I to to to to name it, to say it out. Even if it doesn't land, you know, that's okay. I think my supervisor said to me, not everything has to land. So that was another moment, probably yeah, an interruption to contact.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

So new naming the what is, and and the what is of um the team leader not saying anything and being witness to this uh leaning towards task and not the relational side. Although both existed in the team, like a yin-yang, yes, the leader perhaps not even showing that they really value the relational side uh in some way. So naming it is so important, it's one way we kind of put a highlighting pen over the the what is. And I get that for somebody who's very uh relational and contactful like you, it can produce some anxiety, can't it? Because you're worried you're gonna break relationship.

unknown 28:59

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

And so we can be caught up in a bit of a parallel process of of what of not wanting to, not wanting to disturb the contact that the team so greatly needs and is building. Yeah. Great, real great realization and uh lovely example. Both your examples, I think, are beautiful examples of how small emergence is. I think sometimes when we talk about it, um, we talk about it like like at a conference that Al was talking about last week. It can seem like a big thing or mysterious thing or a complex thing. Um or or sometimes people believe the whole approach has to be emergent. We can't have any structure. That's what sometimes people hear or take from it. But the beauty of these podcasts of what we're talking about today is you've described plenty of what we call minimum viable structures like the check-in. Small container, but where you're not going through it like an exercise. You're you're you're going through it to say, what can we make contact with here? What's wanting to come forward? And and to build contact between team members, group members. The process of contacting. Yeah. Al, what's connected?

SPEAKER_01 30:25

Well, it's we're we're we're kind of nearing the end of the episode here, but I think we have to have Matthew back on a second time because I'd love to explore um this notion of contact and agreement. Because for me, they're not synonyms. Contact doesn't mean agreement. We don't all have to agree. All I know is that disagreement, if there's no contact, disagreement gets really difficult and ugly real quick. And so I hear you when you say I didn't want to call them out on it, or I didn't want to intervene too provocatively, because that would have no, I I think with the right contact and with the with the right relational ground, as you said earlier, in place. Where I think we we we we're allowed to disagree and and and explore the disagreement and maybe land in a completely different place. Not not in the middle, but maybe on a whole different uh kind of polarity scale.

SPEAKER_03 31:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:21

So please come back again, Matthew.

SPEAKER_04 31:24

I I just love speaking with you. And I, you know, I was I was just thinking there, I I I read this quote recently um around attention, that attention is primarily a moral act because it changes what we see in the world, that what we what we pay attention to. And that kind of brings up for me that we can be we can have our attention on one thing and be totally just not aware of something else completely. Um it it's a reminder for me to s to slow down there, to always be checking my interior landscape. Um and to allow and to allow what com to to let it be. To let what comes up be, not to kind of try to brush over it, I'll say that's not that's not part of the to go to him because I agree, I I learned that's it. The contact, you can disagree but have contact. Um you know, perhaps that we were still building the relational ground. We're only session two, so yeah, of course, of course.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

Matthew, that was a fantastic summary, and doesn't need, I think, either of us to summarize. Um, but I do want to support Alad's idea of having a further conversation. Because it feels like we're not done here today. We've in fact opened up through our contact, a new a new thread has emerged that would be fun and meaningful to explore, and I'd enjoy that very much. I've got no idea where we go with it, but it would be fun to have the conversation. So if you're up for it, let's do that.

SPEAKER_04 33:05

Absolutely. I feel like there's some unfinished business. Yeah, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

But for now, I just want to thank you very much for being here with us today. It's been very wonderful to spend time with you again and makes me want to spend more time with you, Matthew. And I'm excited about you coming back this side of the day.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Yes, we'll see more of you in person there.

SPEAKER_04 33:30

That's been a real treat. Thanks for having me on, and thanks for holding the space. It's been wonderful. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

And thank you all for listening. See you real soon.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

See you soon.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Thanks for joining today's Journey of Teams Transformed.

SPEAKER_02 33:53

If this sparked a new insight or a deeper question, we invite you to sit with it. Not to solve it, but to let it unfold.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

For resources, community, and reflection prompts, visit teamcoachingstudio.com.

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Until the next time, stay present, stay curious, and keep leaning into the art of emergence.