Launching Clinical Research In Eye Care

We sit down with Amy Ford of Curo Research to map the real-world path to launching and scaling clinical research inside an eye care clinic. We dig into staff growth, budgeting that actually covers the work, sponsor red flags, and where ophthalmic research is headed.

• defining coordinator, data, and regulatory roles as distinct growth paths
• physician traits that predict success, led by humility and trust
• building profitability by negotiating budgets against protocol time
• sponsor green flags and red flags in communication and turnover
• retention risks, deviations, and protecting institutional knowledge
• motivations that sustain research beyond finances
• emerging trends across retina, presbyopia, IOLs, and myopia control
• shifting workload between ophthalmology and optometry over time

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Greetings and welcome to iCare Leadership Live. This is the podcast for iCare leaders who want to level up their leadership, create better cultures, and improve the financial results of their clinics. In this episode, I'll be talking to Amy Ford from Curo Research. Amy is an expert on clinical research. We're going to talk about the benefits of research practice, how to start one up, and many other topics related to clinical research in your ophthalmology business. I'm excited to have this conversation. So let's join the show. My guest today here is Amy Ford from Curo Research. Welcome to iCare Leadership Live.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

No, thanks so much for having me, Mike. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Absolutely. And um, you know, I wanted to wanted to have you on the show because, well, first of all, research is super fun and interesting. I think it's a hot topic, or at least it has been really hot over the last, you know, five to ten years. So I'm gonna definitely ask you about kind of the future. Um I love research staff and talking to them. They're so excited about the work they do. So that's always been interesting. And you're, you know, you have an eye care background. And so that's a fun, that's you know, that's my thing, right? So thanks for being on the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Yeah. Um, just a little bit of my background so everyone knows. I got my start in clinical research at a small private practice, and then from there I went to an academic setting, and then I moved on to large hospital setting, and now I do my own consulting business. So um just kind of seen it all, every aspect of research um as far as you know, phase three, phase four clinical trials. Um, haven't done a lot of benchmark research, you know, with animals and things like that. But actual clinical research, FDA approved clinical trials, you know, that we're moving forward to uh mass approval for everybody. Um, I have quite a bit of experience in that.

Personal Reads And Working Geniuses

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Okay. Sounds great. Well, um, well, let's let's go ahead and dive in here. Um I guess let's start. Like, what is it? I always like to kind of ask a personal question here. And this is a totally off topic here. This is a new thing. Okay. Okay. Um, so totally off topic, not on iCare or anything. What is like a book? I know you're a reader, so like, is there a book you've been reading or something you've read recently that you want to share? This is your opportunity to share with the world a great.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

All right. Well, then I have to say that I read an article and I can't remember where that talked about those of us who read um tend to pigeonhole ourselves into a certain genre. And some of the benefits of reading are when we branch out of that genre. So I am usually in the big in the self-help realm. Um, I'm a big lover of anything from the table group. Um, and that's I never say his last name correctly, but it's like Patrick Lin Lincone. Lencioni. Lencioni. See, there you go. I knew I was gonna butcher it, right? Um, so his newest one is called the Six Working Geniuses, and it talks about how we have six geniuses that in the workplace. We have two that we're super strong in, we have two that we're we can function in, and then we have two that kind of completely drain us. Like we can do it, but they'll drain us. And the two that we're most proficient in kind of fill us up. And if we spend too much time in like our lesser buckets, we'll get burned out really quickly at work and things like that. So I highly recommend that for any leaders. And then in my new genre that I've been exploring a little bit more of, I'm reading a series called Um Throne of Glass, which is very interesting. It's by an author named Sarah Mass, I think. M-A-A-S. Um, anyway, it's it's like a fantasy dragons and creatures and things like that. Um, so but it's been really good and um I've I've enjoyed it pretty much. So yeah.

Why Clinical Research Hooks Professionals

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Okay, cool. Awesome. Well, you know, I hope you guys out there listening enjoy this feat new feature of iCare Leadership Live because I think it's fun to just like get to hear from other people and like, I don't know, a fun personal question. So uh to get things warmed up. Um and I'm a huge fan of Patrick Lenciani too. So thank you for dropping that. Um, why do you think um getting into clinical research here? Why do you think that you gravitate to that field? What was it that kind of grabbed you about it? And what's kind of kept you engaged with that so long?

Staff Growth And Career Paths In Research

SPEAKER_02 4:38

You know, I think most of us that are in clinical research, we all just kind of fell into it. It's one of those career spaces that is not very well known and people don't really um set out in their life to go, I want to be a clinical researcher. It just kind of happens. And so uh I guess one part of my history I left out is I served in the United States Air Force for seven years, which military loved structure. And um whenever I started working in research, I just loved the structure. And I was really good at it because it's very um methodical. There's things you have to do, there's things that you need to report, you have to do it this way in this time, it's all laid out for you. Um, there's not a lot of, I mean, obviously in any research project, you can do whatever you have to do to take care of your patient. Um, but on an average patient, you come in, you do this. Um, and so I think that's what it really drew me to it. And then as I got started with it, I just I couldn't believe how many people we were helping, how many different people we were helping in different ways. Um, like you said, most of my background is in ophthalmology, but I did some with cardiology and a few other specialties as well. And so my first experience with helping patients that didn't have any other option was um with an anion. Um, so it's a like uh ocular disease that there's no treatment for, and it's like a neuropathy, like affects the optic nerve. I'm so sorry. It's been a lot of years since I worked on that project. Um, but basically, um, if we caught them early enough, we were able to give them an injection and hopefully save some of their vision, um, where most of these patients didn't have any other option. So it was really exciting to get to see that. Um, but I think my favorite, you know, or the most compelling reason was kind of you started seeing in cardiology, you know, these patients that we're telling them, you know, you have heart failure, you guys have about three months to live, you're not a candidate for a transplant for one reason or another. And then, but I have this study for this new device that we're working on to help your left side of your heart work well. And, you know, five years later, these patients are coming in. I got to see my kid graduate high school. I got to meet my first grandbaby. And when you kind of realize like those impacts that you're making in people's lives, it's just phenomenal. And I am probably a little bit of a weirdo, but every job I left, I would always leave a note for my patients. Like, I've thank you so much for all of your commitment. I've moved on to a better position. I've let you in the great hands because I think it's important to build the confidence in the next person before you move on. And so believe it or not, I still get Christmas cards from some patients from my very first clinical trial. And it's just so rewarding to see, you know, how we've been able to impact their lives.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

I'm so glad you said that. I really think that's one of the underappreciated uh benefits of working in clinical research, both from the provider side, but maybe even more so on the research coordinator side, is you get to really have a relationship with those patients.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, and I I think you don't realize how much time you spend with these patients. I mean, you're in there with them, you know, sometimes for three hours. These exams are not short. Um, and it's a commitment for both the practice and the the patient. And so when you're spending three hours with somebody, and part of the time is sitting in the dark, getting dark adapted, so you can do their next visual acuity and all you can do is talk to each other. I mean, good relationships.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Okay. Okay. I guess there's a the protocol mandated just sitting there time.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Um, this is interesting. I I I wanted to get into this, but later, but now seems a good time. You know, this is something that emplo your employees in a clinic can really benefit from. So if you're a physician, you own an ophthalmology practice, um, it sounds like there are some benefits for the staff who are helping with the study. And one of them is developing relationships with patients. But one that I've seen is growth opportunities. So have you seen clinical research as being a growth opportunity for the technicians and the staff within the clinic?

Traits Of Successful Physician Investigators

SPEAKER_02 9:08

Yes, 100%. I mean, I think sometimes we feel a little pigeonholed that we're either optometry or ophthalmology, you're optical, or you're doing special testing, you know, you kind of get into those spaces and you think this is it. And where do I go from here? Oh, well, I become a practice manager from here, you know, and and that kind of cuts back on your patient care. And if you're not an administrative person, gosh, how appealing is that for you? Um, but with clinical research, you know, I've seen some patient, I mean, some technicians do some amazing things with their time, you know. Like I said, my background was primarily ophthalmology, and then I I branched out and I did more. But when you're working with those sponsors, there's oftentimes the ability for your technicians to learn from people that they wouldn't have access to before. Um, they get the opportunity to travel for investigator meetings. Um, so let's say you live in a smaller area, your staff doesn't really get to go out for, you know, additional um CE events or things like that. Um, they're getting to travel to Chicago or Miami or Orlando, Los Angeles for these investigator meetings, um, which, you know, is I I think is a perk. I mean, there's don't get me wrong, there's some folks who don't enjoy traveling or, you know, maybe are a little more introverted. And the idea of coming to investigator meeting might not feel so exciting. But I think most people, if you're building these relationships with patients, you've got to have some extroversion and the ability to kind of want to build that. So there's exposure to people that you normally wouldn't have exposure to, a chance to travel. And then I think it broadens your career path. And in clinical research, um, during my time at the large hospital setting, we didn't have a career ladder. We called it our career tree because we would bring people in entry level and teach them a little bit about everything. And so there's kind of three main buckets around research. There is research coordinating, which is your patient care interaction portion, there's data entry where you're taking all the information that was gathered from those visits and you're putting it into the computer. And then there's regulatory, which is dealing with the IRB and the sponsors and all the regulations. And so if somebody comes into your research department and they're like, man, I love to sit in front of a computer and type data all day long. If I don't talk to a patient, that's great. Then that this is the space for them. Um, if they're like, oh, I love enforcing the rules, great. You've got a regulatory coordinator. If they're like, I just want to see patients all day, every day, then guess what? Maybe you have an amazing research coordinator there for you. So I think what I see most is yes, there's advancement, but I think there's room in research for everyone and every personality type.

Sponsor Budgeting And Profitability

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Cool. I love that. I love that perspective. Um, and there really are growth opportunities within the clinic, within the industry, and that I think can be really exciting. You you kind of helped me with my segue onto my next topic. But before we go on, I do want to say if anyone's listening live, um Amy is here. She's an expert in clinical research. If you have a question, shoot us a question. Or if you're a friend of Amy, say hi, give us a little wave. We love that. Uh, we'll acknowledge you here on the live show. Um, but as I said, you kind of offered me a segue. You know, there are traits that can be a fit in clinical research for staff. But let's say that I'm a provider and maybe I don't have clinical research. I'm a I'm a doctor, I'm thinking about starting clinical research. What are the traits that you think, you know, tend to predict success in a doctor who's thinking about clinical research?

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Um I think for me, there it's humility and trust are probably the two biggest ones that I've seen be very successful in clinical research. Um, and the reason that I say those two is because we do have a protocol we have to follow. So your research coordinator is likely coming to you and saying, hey, doc, I know you want to order this today, but per the protocol, you know, we're we're we're not supposed to do that until the next visit. And it's not that we can't do it, but I just want to make sure that you're aware that the protocol says that we're kind of supposed to do it this way. Do you still want to do it? Right. And it's almost like a checks and balances system. And so you kind of have to be willing to not just trust your research coordinator that they know the protocol and that they're here to help you, but have enough humility to accept that they are also there to try to kind of keep things um going the way that the protocol has said that we're gonna go. So um I think those are probably the two best ones.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Okay. I'm gonna have to clip that um little comment there for my uh video snippets because I thought that was so powerful because you know, I have definitely seen that. That relationship between the coordinator and the and the physician is so important, and there's a lot of power that's being delegated to the to the coordinator, and uh being able to trust them is is really important because they know that protocol probably better than the than the doctor a lot of times, right? So this show is sponsored by Seasoned Advice HR Services, where I help eye care businesses to make more money and save more money by hiring better, retaining better, and reducing your HR risk. If you would like an HR assessment or ongoing HR support, please reach out to me at seasoned-advice.com okay. So let's say that I am a physician and I'm thinking about starting up clinical research, but maybe I'm skeptical, you know, and I'm like, well, you know, okay, there's feel good benefits, right? We can help our patients, but you know, it does have to make sense financially. Do you think that there's a strong case for a financial return on clinical research? Or is it kind of like, hey, we're gonna roll the dice and see if this is gonna work or not?

Choosing Good Sponsors And Studies

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Yeah. So I think there's a lot of folks that get into research and they don't recognize their power in the project. You have to advocate for yourself, but sponsors need you just as much as you want them. So don't be afraid to negotiate, right? They're gonna give you a budget and you have the ability to say, hey, this budget works for me, or no, this budget doesn't work for me. And you need to make sure that when you're looking at the budget, you're looking at the protocol, everything that they're asking you to do, the time commitment that they're asking you for, and compare that to the budget, right? And so I think that's where maybe some of that confusion or like that, oh, I don't know if this is gonna be profitable comes in. Because if you're not truly looking at everything they've asked you to do and how much they're asking or they're saying they're gonna pay you, you can easily fall into that trap of, well, this is all I'm gonna get. No, don't be afraid to go back to them and say, hey, like I'm gonna need a little bit more here. This exam, like, yeah, there's usually like for a, you know, whatever office code, like 99214, you know, I get paid this much from insurance. But this office visit that you're asking me to do for research is like three hours long. And my usual visit is only 30 minutes. And so therefore, I need more um compensation for the time that you're tying up a room, you're tying up my tech, um, things like that. So I think that's where that skepticalness kind of comes in. People have heard, like, well, I did research and I didn't make any money. Well, did you just accept the budget as they gave it to you? I've even heard of sites where they do something like, oh, I'm gonna mark it up 10% and that should be good enough. Well, if you haven't done a true analysis, may not be worth it.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Okay. That that's a that's gold right there. Because, you know, once you get locked into an agreement, that's it, you know. So that's your one opportunity. Kind of like, kind of like hiring staff in your clinic is your one opportunity to, you know, bring in someone that's gonna help you. This is your moment to determine if this project, this research project is gonna be a success or is it gonna be a money drainer? And in my experience, a good research coordinator is needs to be paid a good bit more than a technician, too, right? So, like those those hours of those coordinators are worth more. You know, so they need to be charging more or receiving more fees in exchange for that.

Turnover Risks And Protocol Deviations

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Right. And I just want to say too, if you have a really outstanding technician and you want to find a way to get them a raise, but it's not really in your budget, research is a great way to do that because if the study is paying for part of that coordinator's time, then that's not coming out of your practices bottom line. It's coming out of the research budget. So you can think about that in that way also.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

I like the way you think there. Um, okay, we talked a little bit about like study startup and contracting. Um, on in that same vein, you know, maybe you're, you know, I don't know how this maybe you can educate me a little bit, but you know, maybe you're out there and you have multiple options of studies that you could that you could help out with. And there are different sponsors out there. What are some of the green flags of a study slash sponsor that might be good to pursue and some of the red flags that might indicate, man, this is going to be not such a great relationship?

Motivations That Predict Success

SPEAKER_02 19:12

Yeah. So it's actually kind of the same, I think, a little bit on both sides, right? So even for sponsors that are looking at sites, these are some of the things that we talk to them about looking for, as well as things that sites should be looking for for the sponsors. And it and it is like timeliness of response, is like my number one thing. Um, if you have a sponsor and they tell you, like, I need this back in a week, and you get it back to them, and then you don't hear anything for a month and a half. I mean, chances are that their either project is not moving quick enough, their team is overworked. Um, and if a team is overworked, I think we all know that like the communication can get a little bit curt, a little bit, you know, um adversarial sometimes, even because they're feeling the pressure from their side. Um, and so, you know, I think that's like the biggest one for me. It's like you as the site want to get back to that sponsor quickly, but you also want to notice how quickly they get back to you. Um, and then I I think it's tone of emails and conversations. Um, is it along the lines of, hey, let's work on this as a team, like we, or is it I versus you? Um and I, you know, it's it gets kind of hard, you know, there has to be some separation between the sponsors and the patients, but ultimately we are all on the same team on this project. We are all trying to get this product to market. We are all trying to get quality data out there, and we are all trying to make sure that our patients are taken care of appropriately and timely. So I think that the tone of the messaging that you're getting also makes a difference. Um, and then finally, just um in that whole startup process, the number of people you're dealing with and the number of like new faces you're seeing, right? So if you have like one project manager and one research uh monitor kind of person that you're dealing with, that's usually a good sign, right? Turnover, I think, is always my biggest thing on both sides again. Uh so if you see, oh, they sent this person, but now that person's moved on, and then they sent me this person, and now I'm talking to that person, you know, chances are that team is it it could be that the team is very fluid and they're all working together to cover each other, or it could be that there's been some turnover and that maybe isn't the healthiest um environment for things. And so just remember, you know, if it's not a healthy work environment on both sides, and it can get a little stressful for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Well, now you're you're right in my zone right here because you know, staff retention is is huge. I was just having a conversation the other day about staff retention and MIPS in the office and how it can get your MIPS off track. And I think that's really true in clinical research because think about if you have patients coming in for um visits and now you've lost a coordinator, you've got to find a new coordinator and that learning the protocol, you know, what is the and I could go on and on, but let me let me let you answer that. What are some of the problems that can arise with you know staff turnover in the clinical research department?

Future Trends In Ophthalmic Research

SPEAKER_02 22:29

I you know, it's the same for just in general, right? In loss of institutional knowledge is the biggest thing that we see whenever there's turnover anywhere. Hey, this research project is here. How are we doing the billing for that? Who am I supposed to invoice for that one thing? You know, um, which patient is this number? What was their last visit like? What does the protocol say that I can and can't do? Is that an adverse event? And then we haven't even talked about protocol deviations yet. I mean, let's be honest, as it as an anytime a new protocol comes into your office and you start seeing your first couple of patients, you're probably gonna have a couple of protocol deviations. You know, the protocol is specific, but there are some things that are a little bit up to interpretation. Your interpretation may be a little bit different than the sponsors, and then, oh, by the way, we needed you to do it this way. Oh, okay, great. Now I know moving forward, right? But if that doesn't get passed down from coordinator to coordinator and things like that, then you're gonna see a repeat of some of those mistakes. And then that kind of becomes a red flag for audit issues. Um, and then also if you're training a new coordinator while trying to continue with a running study, it can get a little difficult because the things like protocol deviations aren't getting reported or taken care of timely because this person is so busy just trying to learn what what patient do I need to see? What does the protocol actually say? So then sometimes those things can fall to the wayside and you end up with protocol deviations and other queries not answered in a timely manner. And then that kind of becomes another red flag for audit issues. So I think those are the big ones that I see.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Okay, yeah. Well, I uh you're preaching to the choir on that for sure. Um and so, you know, you've got to retain that that team, you've got to keep them engaged and take care of them, and because they're taking care of your study subjects. Um and so yeah, I can't say that enough. So I appreciate you kind of echoing that.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

I and I think it goes right across the board too. Like let's talk about even just turnover within the clinic. You know, if there's a a person that usually does the OCTs and knows that they have to be programmed into OCT a specific way, and then that regular clinic person is now gone, and the research coordinator has to teach now a new person how to put everything into the OCT, right? It's I mean, it's just across the board all the way. Um, retention, retention, retention. I think we all know it, but it's not as easy. It's it's easier said than done, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Right. For sure, for sure. Um, you know, we talked about, you know, the traits that that doctors should have to be successful. I'm curious about like the motivation that you tend to see, you know, are are physicians getting into research because they want to be on the cutting edge? Are they getting into it because they think it's a profitable thing? Are they getting into it? Um I don't know, for different reasons. What are what are the motive main motivators that you are seeing? And then do any of those motivators tend to predict success or failure?

How To Connect With Amy And Closing

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Maybe I think you hit two of them right off the bat. You know, there's patient doctors out there that want their patients to have access to cutting edge. They want their patients to be able to say, like, oh, I I can give you this, I can give you that, they can give their patients options. Um, and then I think there's physicians that are like, hey, we need an additional revenue stream. And so how do we, how can we do that? Right, you know, obviously insurance reimbursements are always dropping and we're having to do more with less. And so everyone's looking for something new as far as revenue streams are concerned. And then I think there's the other, like the KOL type folks that we, you know, they want to be on the speaker podiums, they want to be sharing their knowledge, they want to do uh more for the I guess the industry, or I guess it's not really the industry, but for their, you know, specialty um more. They want to make sure that people are educated and they know what's going on and out there and like that. Um, I would say the first and the last we see the most success with um people that want to provide great care with their patients and want to get um information out to others tend to be the most successful. Sometimes folks who only have a financial mindset, um, it's hard for them to see the fours for the trees, I guess. You know, it's like it's all this work, and then they feel like, oh, they don't get their payment for you know a quarter. Like, so you know, they do all this work in January and February, they don't see any money, and then it finally comes at the end of March, and they're like, that's it, uh like I, you know, in their head, they've turned it into like I was in the clinic for four hours.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

And so then they're like, that's all I got. And so I would say that, you know, if your only motivation is finances, then you might not be as successful because it is hard work and it is extra time and it is a little bit different than clinic, and it will throw off your usual pace seeing these patients. And so if it's just financial, you're not as likely to be as successful. But if you want other parts of research, usually that's enough motivator to keep it alive.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Okay, excellent. Um last last thing that that's kind of on my mind here is about you know, the trends and the future of clinical research and ophthalmology. Um, I know in retina, at least at one time, it was booming. So many opportunities, so many new things. Um, are you can are you seeing that continuing? Is it does it depend on the specialty that you are working in? Um is the future bright for clinical research, I guess is what I'm asking here.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Yeah, I think we had a pretty slow year last year, one of the slowest years we've ever seen. Um, just from like a funding standpoint, you know, the NIH does a lot of the benchmark research that then drives towards um big pharma. And so as you know, the NIH slowed down a little bit, we kind of saw a slowdown in our other clinical research. But overall, I would say, yeah, it's an it's not a dying breed. It's only gonna people are only gonna want to do more as we learn more about, you know, the more we learn, the more we can innovate. And as we innovate, there's gonna be more products. I mean, we've seen everything um in the market recently. Um new IOLs, I've seen new um retinal injections, I've seen new, I mean, obviously, presbyopia drops are all the rage right now. Um, so we've seen a couple of those coming out and even a few more in the pipelines to be tested. Um, and then even with some of the kids stuff, you know, I've seen a lot of uh myopic trials with um dilation drops for those kids to kind of help try to slow the progressive myopia, especially with all the screen time we're using. Um but I think one of the biggest shifts I see coming for research in the optometry ophthalmology space is I think we're gonna see a shift of all the surgical trials sticking with ophthalmology and a lot of the like eye drops and things like that going more towards optometry. I I don't know. I I've seen a projection that stated something like ophthalmology was gonna be reduced over the next like 10 years by like 80%. Like they weren't replacing ophthalmologists nearly as quickly as they needed to. And so, because of that, I think the demand on the current ophthalmologist is going to come very surgically minded because they're, you know, optometrists can't do surgery. Um, and so the surgeries are gonna have to go to the ophthalmologist. And then where does that leave everything else? The ophthalmologists aren't gonna have time to do it, and so we're gonna see a lot more optometrists, I think, moving into the space of eye drops and things like that, um, as far as research is concerned. Okay, interesting. So, yeah. That's just my prediction. I I don't I don't have anything other than what I just told you about it. Um, but I think that's the way that we're going.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Okay. Well, I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me. Um, just with with so many um trends and um indicators in the in the labor market, in the marketplace, that actually makes a lot of sense. Um, well, Amy, you have shared so much awesome knowledge um and so well. Thank you for being on the show.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Yes, thanks for having me. This is really fun, super easy and laid back. That's how I like it.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

That's right. That's how I like to have it. And um, if anyone wants to get to know you a little bit better and the work that you do with helping clinics to start up and and improve their research operations, um, how can they get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Yeah, so Amy at curocuro research.com is my email. Anyone's welcome to reach out. Um, I'm also on LinkedIn, Amy Ford, just find me and send me a message or add me. I'm always open to having any conversations that anyone wants to have around research. Uh, I am not a gatekeeper. If there is something that I can do to help you, let me know. I am happy to do as much as I can. Um, I just think it's important. My my big thing that I say a lot is as we grow the pie, everyone's piece gets bigger. So um just remember that as we kind of move into these different spaces. There's no need to try to keep somebody from gaining knowledge. If we all gain the knowledge together, we can all grow together.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Well, that brings this episode of iCare Leadership Live to a conclusion. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the show on your podcast app and share it with someone who would value the content. I promise to bring you more guests and content to help make you a better iCare clinical leader. I also invite you to subscribe to my HR newsletter for iCare leaders. You can find information about that at seasoned-advice.com. Now go out there and lead with confidence.