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Eye Care Leadership Live
I speak with eye care and healthcare clinical leaders and the experts who help their clinics succeed.
Eye Care Leadership Live
Culture Tips for Healthcare: Mike Lyons + Jakub Grajcar
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Most healthcare practices don’t struggle because the medicine is bad. They struggle because leadership gets stretched thin, managers get promoted without support, and culture slowly drifts until turnover, drama, and “constant fires” feel normal. We sit down with HR consultant Mike Lyons to get practical about what actually helps a clinic scale: hiring the right managers, managing those managers well, and building a team environment people want to stay in.
We dig into how to hire for people skills, not just experience. Mike shares what to look for when you’re interviewing, how to pull leadership signals from real situations, and why clarity is a form of kindness. We also talk about the day-to-day mechanics of managing leaders: weekly check-ins, skip-level conversations, and simple documentation habits that reduce risk and prevent surprises. If you’ve ever thought, “I know what I should do, I just don’t have time,” we address that too with a memorable “sharpen the knife” metaphor and a delegation mindset that develops future leaders.
Culture comes up again and again, especially gratitude. We unpack how gratitude changes a leader’s mood, reduces negativity, and helps employees feel seen when they do the quiet work that keeps a practice running. You’ll also hear how to balance appreciation with constructive feedback, and why writing things down can protect both the employee and the organization in difficult HR moments.
If you lead an ophthalmology practice, optometry clinic, or any healthcare team, this conversation is built for you. Subscribe, share this with a practice manager who needs it, and leave a review so more leaders can find these tools. What’s the hardest part of management for you right now?
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This episode is brought to you by Seasoned Advice HR, where I help eye care clinics to hire, retain, and manage better — helping you get Better Results Through People. Learn more at seasoned-advice.com.
Contact me directly at mike@seasoned-advice.com
Get my free HR and leadership downloads here: https://www.seasoned-advice.com/signup-for-free-downloads
Welcome And Why This Crossover
SPEAKER_01Hey everybody, this is a special episode of iCare Leadership Live. Um, this entire show is an episode of Scaling Practice Management with Jakob Greysar. Um, had a wonderful conversation with Jakob, and I just loved it so much. I wanted to share it on my own podcast feed. I hope you enjoy the show. We talk about a lot of great things related to culture and HR. Um, so here's the show with Jakob.
SPEAKER_00Hello, hello, hello everyone, and welcome back to Scaling Practice Management, the show where we help practice managers grow smarter, not harder. My name is Jakub Greizar. I'm the head of marketing at Talkie AI, where we help medical practices stop the phone from ringing off the hook and unburden their front desk team with our AI medical receptionist agents, and we're already helping over 300,000 patients every month with that. My guest on the show today is Mike Lyons. Mike, welcome to the show. Great to have you here. Thank you. Yes, uh, excellent. Uh Mike is an AH is an HR consultant specializing in ophthalmology and healthcare practices through his company, Seasoned Advice. And by the way, I love the name and I love the branding, you know, with the salt and pepper shakers. That's great. Um, Mike, you're also the host of iCare Leadership Live, of course, uh, a podcast for ophthalmology practice managers and leaders. So very much uh you know, pretty much a sister podcast to scaling practice management in in some respects. Uh, and then before going out on your own, my notes say you spent nearly six years building the HR department from the ground up at Austin Ratina Associates. Uh sounds like a great story, and I wonder if we're gonna dig into that as well. Mike, in any case, welcome to the show. Great to have you here today.
SPEAKER_01Jakob, thank you so much. I'm so glad you reached out and man, let's jump in, let's talk HR and all things uh leadership.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. We're gonna talk about that uh after we do the warm-up game, but before that, I'm reminded of kind of the context of our conversation. I think we met kind of indirectly through Jacqueline Waterhouse, right? Because she was a guest a few episodes ago on uh on this show, and then through that on LinkedIn I saw you. Uh you spoke with her as well, I think, on iCare Leadership Live, is that correct? Correct. Yeah, yeah. And when I saw that, I discovered you, and then we had our chat, and now we're recording this conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yes, you know what? It's amazing how people get connected through LinkedIn and podcasting. It's been a powerful combo for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I mean, my generation is in their mid-30s right now, and still a lot of people have this sense of cringe about LinkedIn that I don't really understand. I mean, I'm not saying spend your whole day and night on there, right? It's not there for that. Uh, but it can be such a useful tool in the professional sense, and even a little bit besides. And again, this conversation, that's how it happened. And that's why we get to play the warm-up game today.
Thai Food And Chef Lessons
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so the warm-up game has two stages. Full first you'll pick some numbers and then you'll pick a category. Please pick three numbers from one to ten to start.
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh, three numbers. Um, two, seven, and eight.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so the categories you picked are food, talent, and weekend. Which one do you want?
SPEAKER_01Food.
SPEAKER_00Food, okay. Right, of course. Right. We we had a good one with this one. So uh how so the question would be well, what's your favorite meal in the world or something that brings back memories, something that you like to cook, maybe? Let's treat the category very broadly. Where do you want to go with it?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Well, you know, I was a personal chef for five years. I don't know if you know this. And so um I'm I'm uh there is definitely foods I love to cook. Um, I love Thai food. I have to say, that is probably my number one cuisine. A Thai curry. Uh, I love the herbs um that we get to throw in there. You get some acid acidity, you get a little bit of sweetness, a lot of you know, salty from the fish sauce. You can put whatever kind of protein. Just uh put that over some jasmine rice. Um, give me a little um mango sticky rice for dessert, and I'm happy.
SPEAKER_00Stop it, stop it. I haven't had lunch yet.
SPEAKER_01You're killing me over. Hey, you pick the category. Now, I mean, I guess I picked it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what the warm-up game is all about. That's amazing. Uh, you're a man after my own heart here, uh, Mike. You know, I don't have a lot of um kind of equipment or like uh spices in my kitchen, but the ones I do have that kind of go deeper, you know, outside of the regular salt and pepper, uh, I do have the the curry, the oyster sauce, you know, a little bit of soy sauce because I do love to go there, even when I have because I'm Polish, right? Even when I have pierogi, right? I occasionally season them with with like curry and you know give it a twist like that just to make them you know a little bit more interesting. So so I love that. So what is your like top favorite Thai dish?
SPEAKER_01Uh I think it would have to be uh is it I think it's is it musman? Uh I'm trying to remember the oh uh panang. Penang curry with beef, tender beef. It's gotta be real tender, um, like a brisket or a or a chuck or something like that. Love it. It has the lime leaves in it. I love lime leaves. Um, they have they lend this great flavor. Run out, get yourself a penang curry today, everyone.
SPEAKER_00That's amazing. Yeah, lime leaves. We um when I meet with my friends for board games, and some listeners, regular listeners of the show will know this that I do board games sometimes. We did put lime leaves in like our drinks as we uh as we play. So that brings back good memories. Wow. I've got a game lined up in just two days from today, so that might be part of the equation there. Yeah, amazing. Okay, so last stop uh while we're on this chapter of the of the conversation. So you were a personal chef, you said for uh five years. What's your top uh cooking tip then?
SPEAKER_01Ooh, top cooking tip. Um have a sharp knife. Um, so many of our knives are dull. Uh we we have these knives, we buy these knives, or we maybe get a gift, and we never sharpen it. And it's unsafe and it makes it harder to cook to cut, it's more dangerous to cut. So own a sharp knife and learn how to cut because that is the gateway to home cooking. So the knife. The knife.
SPEAKER_00You need to be able to enjoy the process, right? And if you have a dull knife, it just makes everything so much harder and so much less appealing. I totally agree, even though I mean I have a pretty new set of knives right now, but they they might be already due for sharpening. So thank you for reminding me, calling me.
SPEAKER_01I would love to come over and sharpen your knives for you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Maybe one day that'll happen. Awesome. So while we're on the subject of number one tip and kind of uh now swerving, swerving, pivoting to the main subject of the show, uh it's time for the number one tip question sent your
The One Tip For Growth
SPEAKER_00way. So, Mike, what is your number one tip on the other hand for growing a healthcare practice?
SPEAKER_01Well, you cannot grow a practice without people, and it takes leaders to hire well and to manage well. And so if you ever plan, if you're a doctor or if maybe you're a single manager, if you ever plan on growing, you're gonna have to have managers. And so have great managers is my one and most important tip for growing a healthcare practice.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I think a lot of people are gonna nod their heads at that, but um, you know, fantastic managers, where to find them and how to actually hire them and get them on board.
SPEAKER_01There's a whole yeah, there's a whole you could write a book, and people have written many books about how to do that. And yes, of course, it's it's it's sounds simple, but obviously, as we know, it's very difficult to do. Uh, and that's why that's why I exist. That's why my whole job exists, I guess.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. And and if you were to give somebody like some
Hire Managers For People Skills
SPEAKER_00some some top-level tips for that, or like even how to get started, or the most important criteria, what do you usually talk about?
SPEAKER_01Oh man. Um, first of all, hire for uh people skills. That is the the number one thing that you need in a good manager. Um, never promote someone that is lacking that. Uh number two, make it really clear what you need from them. You know, just like you're managing a technician in ophthalmology or a medical assistant in, you know, cardiology or whatever, you need to be clear with managers about what kind of management you want to get from them. And this is where a lot of you know doctors um fall short or they because they haven't led, they haven't seen good leadership, and so they kind of just hire the most reliable, experienced person, you know, that kind of falls into their lap, which is understandable. That's what I would do if I didn't know any better, right? But a lot of times that person just is is doesn't have the leadership qualities and they don't know what they should be doing. And so they do things that they shouldn't do and they create problems for your clinic. Um and so hire people with people skills and make make it clear. And if you don't know what you want, study it, research it, work with you know, a consultant or an advisor, get some advice from a peer or a colleague, get a job description. Um, but don't make that mistake of putting that wrong person in the job and not being clear.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I love that. I think I love this enough to pitch a tent here for a second. Right explore this area a little bit a little bit more, right? Let's dig deeper. So you said hire for people skills. I mean, I have some experience with that also from you know from my past experience. I used to run a team of 10 content marketers, so at some point I was hiring like my middle management, right? And looking for you know, for people skills with uh with those people. And you know, the specific things that come to mind is how do you actually check for people skills for something that might come up you know months down the road when you just have this one hiring process, it might be a little bit lengthier for a manager, but still you have you know a few meetings, maybe some some tasks to do along the way. So, what would be the you know the best way to tackle this? How to actually unearth what whether somebody has people skills or not within the recruitment process?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so first of all, if you can hire from within, that is helpful because you that gives you a chance to see what you're getting before you promote someone. So you can see is um Karen a good communicator? Is Karen encouraging and positive? Um and so I guess my first tip is define what good uh people skills look like. You know, it's great to say great good people skills, but what does that mean? For me, that's encouraging. For me, that means they can make a request of someone else without being condescending, and they can do it in a clear way. Um they can confront difficult situations with you know some level of grace and confidence. Um I would say those are three pillar skills that you need to have. They can set a vision, they're not afraid to get in front of their team and say, hey, this is where uh this is where we are now, and this is where we want to get to. Um some level of transparency, ability to be transparent. And anyway, I mean, I could go on, but so define what leadership is, try to promote from within, which gives you the advantage of verifying that that person has those skills. But if you do have to hire from outside, um you're gonna you want to try to get someone with some leadership experience if you can, if you can. So then when you're interviewing them, you can ask them about real-world leadership situations that they've handled. I'm a believer also of looking at their past, right? Let's say someone has never had a management role. Well, maybe they've led a group in school, even going back to high school. Maybe they volunteered somewhere and they became the the the chairman of the of the chess club, or they led something in college, okay? And so you have a chance to demonstrate leadership skills in different ways. And it may take patience, it may take a lot of follow-up questions to kind of draw that out of a fairly inexperienced person. Tell me about that chess club. Like, well, how did you grow the membership? Or what happened when someone wanted to quit? Or what happened when there was a conflict about, you know, chess tournaments? How did you kind of resolve that? And so, like, you got to dive deep and see how they think and can they come up with good answers and things? Um, and then you were talking to references, right? So, oh, let me talk to the the person that that at the college that led the chess club, let me talk to them and see what they have to say about how you ran the chess club or the manager that was your manager at that, you know, dental office that you worked at. You know, and so these are all data points. These are all data points that could help you make a good decision.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I
Finding Leadership Signals In Candidates
SPEAKER_00a lot of these I've tried in the past, and I can also attest that they do work. It's always tricky, but definitely talking about specific situations. You know, the chess club, I've never led that, but before I had a management position, my management experience was running a Toastmasters club, for example. Shout.
SPEAKER_01Jakob, we have that in common. Seriously. Yeah, I was the president of a Toastmasters Club in Orlando, Florida, and I I had a mentor told me, hey, if you want to develop leadership skills, join the Toastmasters Club. And I joined, I became the the president of the club, I became the area governor over the little area. You know, yeah, man. Power power trip there. Um, but Toastmasters, I can't endorse Toastmasters enough for someone who wants to develop their leadership because it's like a built-in little opportunity to lead people. Hopefully, did you have a great experience with that?
SPEAKER_00Yes, amazing. And I'm so glad I got an excuse to talk about it on this show. Absolutely the same experience. Uh, that was one of the best things I've ever done for my career to join a Toastmasters club. The public speaking skills, I'm using them right now, and the leadership, you know, experience that I could bring into my all my future engagements, all all the rest of my career. And it was also a mentor, uh, you know, a coach who who told me or advised me to give it a try, and it clicked in such a big way. So, anybody listening to this, look up your local Toastmasters chamber. The great thing about it is that you've got clubs all over the world. Uh, you know, from Orlando over here to to Pozna in Poland, like you got we got multiple clubs even here, so you'll you'll be able to find one close to you, and it's such a great investment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, or start a club if you if there is not a convenient one and you have a big enough organization, start one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, there's great resources for that as well. We'll put Toastmasters in the show notes. I can't believe it took uh took me like 20 plus episodes to to have to mention that, but that's amazing that we you know I I had a feeling, I had an inkling. Excellent. What were we talking about even? Uh yeah. Hiring hiring great leaders. So I want to also pull on the thread of transparency. Do you have any advice for like managing a leader? Uh you know, managing a manager. So do you have any favorite tools? Is it all spreadsheet based? Do you keep a running Google Doc? Uh I mean, these are tactics, right? The approach is also important, but I feel like I would love to give the watchers in the start something something actionable that they can actually use day to day as they manage their manager because they've got such an important role at their practice.
SPEAKER_01Okay, for
How To Manage Your Managers
SPEAKER_01sure. Number one tip is meet with them regularly and talk about management. So, you know, what does that mean? I'm talking about meeting once a week. You know, how's the team doing? Who, you know, who is doing well? Who's giving you challenges? How are you dealing with the people that are giving you challenges? Of what positions are we hiring for right now? Okay, how you know, are we getting good candidates? How are you going about interviewing them? Um, what types of answers are they giving? Uh, you know what? I think I want to sit in on a couple interviews and and see how that process goes. You know what? I'm also gonna talk to some of the employees that you manage and just check in with them and say, hey, how's everything going? Um and build a relationship with the people like you know, two steps down, quote unquote, so that they know that they can come to they they can come to you if um there's an issue, right? So you're you're having FaceTime with your manager and their direct reports. Um, what else? And and um, you know, metrics are good, right? Hey, how many employees, you know, are we losing employees? What's our turnover? Um, why are they leaving? Um gosh, what else? Let's look at our new hires. You know, how are they doing? You know, give me a give me an assessment on our performance of how well we're hiring, that kind of thing. So um communication. It's all about talking and listening, uh, I think to to create accountability. And that will yeah, result in better management.
SPEAKER_00All clear on that. And operationally, would you would you keep that you know running Google Doc of the conversation, something you can refer to? Uh, or you know, have you found something else that works here?
SPEAKER_01Um, I think a Google Doc is perfectly fine. I like to document yeah, the things that we talk about, the things that the feedback maybe I gave or the requests that I made, so that everyone can see um what we talked about and what maybe needs to be followed up next time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I hear you. I can definitely give a big plus one for the skip level conversations. So when I used to run this larger team, I felt like that was crucial, really. Uh, you know, at one point uh I brought on a manager who was maybe not the best pick for that position, and it was the skip level conversations that made me realize that we needed to make a change. We ultimately uh ended up letting that that team lead go. Uh but without those conversations, it would have been a much more difficult process. You know, it would it would all have had to kind of boil over, right? And instead we could kind of cut it off at the head uh in in that particular situation. So you need that direct FaceTime with the direct reports of your managers as well. If you can find the time for it, which is difficult, I understand, but it's it's it's time well invested. I I wonder if you'll agree.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and sometimes it's r it's I would say 80% of it is just being visible and having informal conversations and making yourself accessible. It's the little it's the little conversations and touch points that build the trust so that when something big comes up, they feel like they can go to you, you know. Yeah. So that's my that's how you that's how you get that trust going.
SPEAKER_00I love that. I love that. Okay, so I feel like we explored this area a little bit. And you know, I'm thinking, as I'm recording these conversations lately, I keep asking myself, like, who am I going to send this episode to, right? And I think this one we'll send to anyone who who is looking at kind of managing their people better, right? And let's see if we can kind of keep that frame for the rest of the of the
What Fractional HR Looks Like
SPEAKER_00conversation. And you're the perfect person to talk with about this because you run uh seasoned advice, as we already mentioned. So you did do this fractional uh HR work. And I wonder if you could paint a picture of us uh for us of what that typically looks like. Give us a little bit of the background, and what are the most common problems landing on your desk other than hiring managers, managing managers, what else is there?
SPEAKER_01Um, you know, HR HR encompasses so many things, but the biggest things that I help with. Number one is helping managers to feel more confident with with every aspect of management. And so sometimes that's situational. And so what I mean by that is uh I've got an employee doing this thing that I don't like. How do I handle that? Give me some confidence to deal with that, or I've got an employee with a medical issue, and there's a little bit of friction there. How do I navigate that without creating risk? Um, and so giving advice and confidence, I think, is a big uh area of help. Another area is structural issues like, hey, I'm not sure our policies are right, or I'm not sure that we have the systems in place to hire effectively. Um I'm not sure that everything we're doing is legal. Um, or even scarier, I think everything we're doing is great. And come to find out they're not doing everything right. And so, you know, it's the things a lot of times it's clinics that they know they they know they don't know things or they don't know what they don't know, right? They're smart enough to know that there's something I know, I know we're not perfect, right? And so I would say giving confidence in situational and giving confidence that structurally they're doing things. And then the other thing that I do spend a lot of time on is just helping with recruitment, um, helping find good employees, helping teach managers good good behaviors when it comes to interviewing and and building good processes for that. I'll do the actual inter, you know, interviewing and phone screening and reviewing resumes and things like that. And that that's a big help because that's a time-consuming task for clinics to do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's very interesting. And a lot of threads to
Building Confidence Through Reps
SPEAKER_00pull on here. Let's talk about confidence then for a moment. Do you think like what kind of lack of confidence are we dealing with here? Is it grounded or like founded or unfounded is what I'm trying to land at here. Is is there a real gap in, you know, in the decision-making skills or the level of information that the managers have? Or is it more of like a literal, you know, you need to believe in yourself type of issue? Is it more emotional? What do you typically find?
SPEAKER_01Um, I typically find that there are actual knowledge gaps because so what I a lot of the businesses that I work with are composed of leaders that have never led, they've never led anywhere else before. Maybe they've been a long time manager in this clinic, 20 years or 10 years, or they've worked as an employee and then are recently promoted. And so they've never worked as a manager anywhere else, and they've never certainly never worked in an organization that used, you know, the very best management practices, the very best hiring and and compliance. And so there's just simply things that they don't know, and there are simply things that they could do better. And a lot of times it's it is a quick process to give confidence. Um, but sometimes it also, you know, it most of the time, I guess it takes repetition, right? Like multiple reps of hiring employees to learn what works, what doesn't, multiple repetitions of of handling difficult situations to see, you know, what's okay to do, what's not okay to do. And then over time those skills, those skills develop. And so that's one of the things I love to do is work directly with managers and and new managers to to show them why we do things a certain way and to help kind of guide them through those hiring decisions, those employment decisions, those policy questions, so that they do start to build that confidence. And so seeing them then feel confident, you know, a year or two later, um, is awesome.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00So it's almost like, you know, you're talking about repetitions. This kind of star reminded me a little bit of the gym, right? So like I feel like with management, the the one trap that you can fall into is that you're you think you're doing repetitions, but you're really trying the same thing over and over, and you're not really experimenting with the way that you manage, right? If we talk about like literal fitness, I don't know if you've had this in your kind of YouTube or social media feed, but I see content all the time about how to like tweak the way you work out, for example, right? Or try this new exercise, you know, it's going to help you. With management, this doesn't get floated so easily, right? Because it's a more you know focused discipline, it's it's not something that everybody uh is engaged in. So I wonder for the you know management curriculum, if you will, that you present to these uh inexperienced leaders, what's on there that they that you go through to kind of upskill them?
SPEAKER_01Um so one thing is uh communication, right? So having regular touch points with employees. Um hey, that's important to do. Well, how do I do it? How do I, you know, how do I make time for that? What do I talk about in those meetings? Um giving information. I'll give them information about how you know effective hiring, you know, questions to ask, what to look for in those questions, how to follow up, um, questions to ask when you're checking references, um mindset around hiring, you know, the mindset of we're not gonna hire someone who's not a great fit, right? And so sometimes managers get into the mindset of, oh my gosh, I need someone now, like I just need to plug this hole, and they need someone to give them confidence that you know what, you're actually gonna be better off if you wait a little bit and get just a you know, a higher quality person. So sometimes it's technical, sometimes it's mindset, right? But how do we look at this situation and uh realize that there is a long-term value to to making a more strategic choice than a kind of a knee-jerk choice?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I understand. So there's I mean, we could dig into all of these topics for a one-hour episode each, I think, you know. For sure. Uh yeah. Uh, but you know, as a as a bit of a um instead, what I would love to ask you is do you ever direct them to like some external resources, like books they should read? You know, is is there do you have favorite recommendations for that?
Books That Shape Culture
SPEAKER_01I do, I do. Uh I'm a huge fan of Patrick Lencioni. He has a couple of great books that I refer to often. One of them, which I think maybe is the one that summarizes everything the best, it is The Advantage. The Advantage touches on so many things for leaders. Uh, but I also really like the uh Ideal Team Player because the Ideal Team Player is a great book uh for managers who are hiring, talks about hiring hungry people who are hungry, humble, and smart. And then the last book that I frequently recommend is called The Energy Bus by John Gordon, and it's all about um trying, it's all about cultivating the right team and the right vibe on your team. And the the one rule he talks about that kind of sticks in my mind the most is we don't want energy vampires. No energy vampires on our team, meaning people who are negative, people who always turn things into what isn't going to work, right? You know, we want people who have high energy and positive energy, and that's what that's one of the things we look for when we hire and how we cultivate leadership.
SPEAKER_00Let's say, as a hypothetical exercise here, somebody heard what you just said and thought, oh gosh, maybe I'm sometimes a little bit negative in T. Maybe I'm a little bit of an energy vampire. Is there a way to help such people to turn things around, as if you will?
SPEAKER_01Um try that Penang curry, number one. Get that Penang Curry in your stomach, that'll instantly change your mood.
SPEAKER_00Toastmasters too, that really helped me to kind of I was my most optimistic self and I was passionate when I was there. You know, but keep going.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and I think that's a great point because you have to know yourself, you have to know what feeds your soul, uh, but feeding yourself, and so for me, Toastmasters too, because I get to be around people and we're we're interacting and I'm putting into myself, right? So Toastmaster is about pouring into yourself. Uh for you, maybe it's going for a walk. I always, you know, when I was working um in-house and I had to go to an office every day, I would I would go for a walk and just give myself some time for myself to get outside and think. Um, and so find ways to to pour into yourself. If you find that if you think you might be the energy vampire, um, maybe you're burning burning out. Maybe you've been putting everyone else ahead of yourself. Uh the and the last thing I would say is start a gratitude journal. Start writing down things you're grateful for, practice gratitude, and that will start to shift your mindset. It's like you talked about going to the gym and you know pumping iron. Well, doing gr practicing gratitude is like practicing is like it's like developing your gratitude muscle. And when you're grateful, it's hard to be negative. All you start start seeing more positive things than all these negative things.
SPEAKER_00That's so interesting. I should I should correct the record here. I typically work out at home, not at the gym. Uh, but that's just the detail. As for gratitude, you know, do you know why I ask you this question? Is because I looked at my behavior on some on some meetings, you know, over the last, let's say, I don't know, year or two, uh, maybe a little bit more. And sometimes I'm the Debbie Downer on the meetings. People listening to the podcast will not know that because I am my best self for these, right? Uh and I do run a gratitude journal, have been for almost 10 years now. But now I'm thinking about it, I think maybe I should kind of refocus that gratitude also towards the work context, right? Uh you know, because typically, I'm noticing that now, when I uh write down stuff in my gratitude journal, it's it's outside of work, and there's definitely a lot of elements inside my work environment that that I'm grateful for as well. I mean, uh our excellent team, uh, you know, shout out to the talkie team if if you're listening to this. You should be. I'm telling you on Slack all the time, listen to the podcast. So I'm so I'm definitely uh that that's meshing, uh that's connecting quite well.
Gratitude As A Leadership Tool
SPEAKER_00Let's stay on the subject of gratitude then for a little while longer. Uh, because that's you know, I remember our conversation before the show, and you mentioned that this is an important part of the mindset, you know, for uh for running uh practice successfully and just as a leadership tool. Okay, gratitude as a leadership tool. Tell me tell me more about that. How does that actually work? Why should leaders actually put that higher on their agenda?
SPEAKER_01Oh man, that I I'm so glad you asked me that. Um gratitude is like the Swiss Army knife of leadership because first of all, it is going to change your mood, it's gonna change your attitude, it's gonna change the way you show up in your clinic every day. Um and so you're you're taking care of yourself. And the other awesome thing about gratitude is it will make you more positive at work, it'll make sure you're not an energy energy vampire. It will train you to see little things as being worthy of appreciation. So, an example you have an employee, you have a receptionist in your medical office, and they show up every day, they're kind of quiet, um, and they don't really make a splash, but they show up every day, and you may say to yourself, Well, you're supposed to show up every day. Why should I praise you for that? But if you are truly practicing gratitude, then you would absolutely say to that person, Hey, Sally, you know what? I'm so grateful, you're always here. I'm I can count on you to be here. And that go that that means so much to me. Uh, you know, they say sometimes in the sports world that the best ability is availability, and that means that like being present is incredibly valuable. And so, yes, thank you for being here. Like it means so much, right? Because when I look around, I see Sam calling in and I see Joe like coming in late. But you, I can count on you. I mean, you wouldn't say all that stuff, but but be being grateful. And the reason why this is such a powerful tool is because people want to know that they're making a difference. They want to know they're making a difference, they want to know that you noticed. Uh, you know what, Jacob never notices that I'm here every day. They go home to their girlfriend, boyfriend, spouse. Jakob never, I'm there every day, and I just never mentions anything. I don't think he cares about me. And so you've got to mention it. You've got to show that you're noticing. And then the other thing when you are expressing appreciation, by the way, is you want to say why. So, Sally, you're here every day. I truly appreciate that. And our that means, you know, when patients come in, they won't have to wait in a line to check in. There's always a smiling face because you're here. And if you weren't here, they might have to wait, or they might not, you know, get they might get be in a rush, and we might get inaccurate, you know, information because we're all rushing around. And so just having you here every day, um, it's great. And I appreciate it. And you always have a smile, thank you. And so that two-part thing of what's is what I noticed, and this is why it matters, is is so key. So, anyway, back to the point is gratitude is just is so powerful for you and for changing the culture. Talk about energy bus, man, gratitude is where it all starts.
SPEAKER_00I love that. I absolutely do. And I I also I really like how you mentioned in particular to point out the second order effects, so to speak, of you know, of the work that or just the effects, I don't think I need to use second order here, just the effects of the work that uh the people are putting in. You know, I'm typically on the other end of the spectrum here. I mean, I love appreciating other people, um, to the point where uh sometimes I wonder if there's a flip side to it.
Feedback Without Shame Or Drift
SPEAKER_00I wonder what you would say to somebody who who might say that, okay, if I praise them too much, they'll be spoiled rotten. You know, they won't be able to act on feedback, they'll think that everything is totally fine when actually they still have things to work on, and how to actually strike that balance. I wonder what you'll say.
SPEAKER_01Well, I would to that person, I would say that's a really dumb way to think. Um, you know, because we don't you can't give too much. Now, if there's a person that needs to improve, we do have to counterpoint by doing giving some constructive feedback. I would never say just be like Sally Sunshine all the time and never give constructive feedback. But if I had to tell you to do one thing, it would probably to be grateful because what most people are doing the right thing most of the time, and so you want to reinforce that so that they will continue that. But you also have to give constructive feedback, you have to put that in there, and you need to do it quickly and privately and clearly, and you need to give the reason again, just like with gratitude. Why? Why is this an issue? You know, um, Thomas, I've noticed that you've been, you know, coming in late quite a bit, and it makes your coworkers frustrated, and it kind of gets us, puts us behind. The doctor notices, and he kind of grumbles at me, and it just kind of hurts us overall. So, you know, can you work on getting here on time? You've got to do that, uh, or else you know, you know, maybe people will think, oh, I'm perfect, but more importantly, your co-workers, your employees are gonna get ticked off because Thomas isn't showing up, and you're not gonna be getting the results you want. And so don't make the mistake of don't make the mistake of never giving constructive feedback, but you can't spoil your at the same time, you can't spoil your employees um with too you know, with too much gratitude. No, I've never heard of that. I've never seen that, it has never happened.
SPEAKER_00Okay, okay, interesting. Uh, and I like your stance on that, definitely. So, you know, let's go deeper into the the constructive feedback part of it then, because I feel like I mean that's something that's a classic, right? For any leader, you'll never be 100% happy with everything your team does, and sometimes you have to course correct. The initial conversation, I feel like that's not the most difficult part of it. The difficult part comes when it's a repeat offense, so to speak, right? If uh you know, if this uh person you just mentioned, if they keep coming uh late to work and it keeps reoccurring, does the tone change? Does your approach change as it keeps uh you know repeating? If it does.
SPEAKER_01Um, I think the the approach definitely changes. I don't know if the tone has to change, right? And so what I mean by that is constructive feedback should never be shaming, it should never be condescending, it doesn't need to be angry or emotional any kind of way. And so when we talk about tone, that's kind of where my mind goes. However, um, yes, you do need to change the approach, you need to change the wording, and so you need to make reference to the fact that, hey, we've talked about this before, um, you know, and I haven't seen a change. We, you know, I asked you if you would improve, I haven't seen an improvement. And so now, you know, not only have you continued to do that behavior, but you've said that you would improve and you haven't improved, and so, you know, we kind of have an issue here. There's
Documenting Performance The Right Way
SPEAKER_01a pattern. And so, you know, this is when you need to start documenting the performance. And this is something that a lot of managers just fail to do. I've had so many clients, so many managers that I've worked with who've come to me and said, I gotta get rid of, I've got to get rid of William today. I'm tired of him. The doctor is tired of William. And I say, okay. I say, What kind of documentation have we got? And often we'd have no documentation. And so that creates risk for you. Number one, it creates risk. Number two, maybe even importantly, more importantly, it's gonna really upset William because he's never probably been told. Let's be honest, he's probably never been told clearly that there was a problem. And so now you look like a big jerk, and you are kind of a jerk if you're gonna fire William. And so don't be a jerk. Be clear. Documentation is actually kind because it gives them clear direction. And it gives them and I have most of the time people do improve, I would say. Most of the time people do improve when they're given clear feedback, and especially if it's in writing. But if not, you've got it there and it will protect you legally.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I definitely see that part of the equation as well. So could you expand a little bit on what you mean by documentation? What kind of documentation is this? You know, notes for meetings, something something more specific.
SPEAKER_01Sure, sure. So you've got to create some kind of a record that a conversation took place, and you want to have some kind of documentation that that person was there for that kind of wasn't just you talking to yourself.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_01Either either they sign it or you send it to them in an email, you know, which which shows that they received it. But you need to explain what the issue is, why it's an why it's a problem, and what what your expectation of them is, um, and then what the consequences could be if things don't change. And uh, like I said, this is this is a kind thing to do because it lets them know, oh my gosh, there's a real issue here. Um so and that documentation um will help you because if they ever s accuse you of not having communicated or um then you can show that you've had that that conversation. It was a it was a violation. You'll be able to show that, hey, I set out an expectation, they crossed that line, and I did what I said I was gonna do, which is you know further disciplinary action, and then then you tend to have better outcomes in a legal stance.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're mentioning the the legal aspect of it uh once again.
Legal Risk And Why Records Matter
SPEAKER_00So uh what do you mean exactly by that? So what's uh what what's it what is that layer like? I think some of the watchless ministers are going to be aware, maybe many of them, you know, not to the extent that they should be, right? That's why we're interviewing experts like yourself. So what should they know?
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness. Well, you there's so many legal traps that you can fall into. So one of them one of them being um someone can say that, well, first of all, someone can say, hey, I thought I was gonna uh you owe me a job, you know. Um I've been here for so long. And they could make an argument in the court of law that basically um, you know, that their job should continue and you've taken it away from them uh without due process. Uh that's kind of a hard argument to take, but but some people have tried to do that. Another one is people, uh some employees will say that I was terminated for false pretenses, meaning um, you didn't really fire me because of my performance. You fired me because you didn't like the harassment allegations that I made, you know, last month, or the workers' compensation claim that I made, you know, a year ago. Um, or you didn't like the fact that I am a little bit older, you know. So uh that's the biggest reason, that's the biggest protection. And so you can say, no, I've got documentation here. We talked about this, had nothing to do with your claims that you made, uh, which we investigated thoroughly, by the way. And it had everything to do with these uh communications that we've done. So an example, another example would be someone makes a claim. Let's say someone makes a claim of harassment, and but they have been a poor performer. And this happens so often. A person who's not performing well and you've had conversations with them, then they make some kind of a claim. Now it's very difficult to go back and say that they were a poor performer if you hadn't already documented that. And so you just have more risk. You put yourself at legal risk that they could sue you uh under feder US federal law um for discrimination or or any number of routes.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I see. So it all drives point uh drives home the point of the importance of documentation. And and can I just say, I mean, this isn't just on the dark side of HR or the on the side of uh on the side of you know these uh these difficult situations that we have. I think it's also very important to document the wins as well, right? Uh you know, just coming back, I guess I kind of want to leave the dark place.
SPEAKER_02Oh gosh, thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that was stressful. So, you know, you want to document. Document the wins as well. You can't always give the feedback or like the kudos in person right away, right? But you still want to remember. I think people appreciate it very much. I know I do, where it's the end of the month or the end of the quarter, even, right? There's a team meeting, and somebody says and the leader says that, you know, I remember Jakob, for example, what you did in January, right? Uh, you know, that that really set us up for success throughout the rest of the of the quarter. So, yes, I think it it goes for both sides, but definitely, you know, for the for the legal side of things and the risks that we mentioned, it's it's important as
Sharpen The Knife Self Care
SPEAKER_00well. So one thing that's crossing my mind related to all of this, I think, you know, with discussing these kinds of topics, there's always the issue of of bandwidth and capacity, uh, right? Because some of the watches and ministers are going to hear all of this and they're going to say, Yes, I know I should be doing all of these things. Practicing gratitude, doing more documentation, you know, maybe being more conscious uh or conscientious with my with my hiring process. But I'm just stretched so thin as a manager, you know. Managers have it hard just in general, and in healthcare even more so. So I wonder if you have any, you know, relevant advice for somebody who feels like they're stretched thin how to take take better care of themselves when they feel like they can't step back from things that much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So my f my first advice is the r if you step back, then you will notice that it becomes easier to to do the things that you're struggling with right now. And so the f the reason you're struggling so hard could be because you haven't taken a step back. You haven't taken some time off, you haven't done the gratitude journal, you haven't exercised and gone for the walk. Um, if you continue to grind down that knife, let's go back to the food analogy. Um you have that cooking knife and you just keep grinding it and you're cutting through these tough whatever, you know, objects, bone and and gristle and stuff, and you never sharpen it, it will just continue to get duller and duller, and you're gonna say, Man, why is cutting so hard? I don't get it. Well, you need to take like five minutes, sharpen that knife, and then now, oh wow, I find that I can cut way more, and now I have even more time to do a little sharpening, and I have a little time to read my cookbook, and now like cooking is actually a pleasure. Man, wasn't this brilliant how I brought this back to that? Um so taking time creates more time later. Um, that's one thing um that I'll say. Another thing that I'll say is going back to leadership, find people on your team that you can trust with little tasks, right? What can you delegate to to people? Maybe I can delegate uh a task off of my plate, and guess what? Not only now am I getting that off my plate, now I'm developing someone to be a future leader. Okay, that's one thing. Now I'm also making that person more engaged in their work. They're gonna be more likely to stay, they are going to be uh more likely to to think about leadership and start motivating their team, right? So delegating things has um a powerful, a powerful advantage, and uh, it's actually fun to pour into other people and and and cultivate them. That's a you know, research says that volunteering and giving to other people actually makes you feel better. So showing gratitude, mentoring people, these are things that you can do to not only help yourself, but help your team uh and help your whole clinic run better.
SPEAKER_00I absolutely love the framing of that, you know, because in the past when I was delegating stuff to people, I thought I was dumping work on them. But you would look at it completely differently. You're mentoring them, you're leveling them up, you're helping them acquire new skills in a way, you know, provided that they still have the capacity, right? Because that can be a different conversation, but in a way it is it is a lot of support and a lot of help for them for their future career. So I love how you kind of installed that in my brain, that you can look at it completely differently. And for the sharpen the knife uh metaphor, it reminds me of one of my favorite books, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People by Stephen Covey. And that was the seventh habit. Uh they were kind of two groups of three, and the seventh is sharpen the axe in his case. Uh so I think it was I don't want to misquote, but I think it was something of a like an Abraham Lincoln quote or something. Like if I were to uh chop down a tree in like a day, I would spend however many hours sharpening the axe. Am I getting that right?
SPEAKER_01Is that is that yeah, I think you're right in there. You're right in there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I will put a correction in the show notes if I got it wrong. Because I personally hate when people get stuff wrong on the podcast and they never address it. Uh so but yes, yes, that definitely makes uh makes a ton of sense. Uh make your body feel good. You know, we mentioned the gym, we mentioned food and cooking, and these can feel like tangents for this sort of conversation, but honestly, we neglect the fact that we are physical bodies doing a lot of mental work too, but the walk helps so much, good food helps so much, good sleep helps so much. It's not yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not the first time you're probably mentioned uh hearing this washers in the stars. It's not even the first time we're talking about this on this show, which is like a year old at this point, which really drives home the importance of it. But anyway, thank you for sharing that on that
Podcasting And How To Connect
SPEAKER_00topic. And um one of the last stops I wanted to make with you here as we as we slowly close off the conversation is you're a podcast host. I'm so lucky that I got to interview a few other podcast hosts in recent uh in recent weeks. So I definitely want to talk about iCare Leadership Live just a little bit. Um can you tell me about what it's been like hosting that show, you know, the approach you have, what you learned throughout that show, either about running a show or you know, uh from the guests that you've had.
SPEAKER_01Well, having a podcast has been just the funnest thing. I have to say, when I was a child, I would take these cassette tapes and I would record myself um pretending to be a radio DJ. And I'm getting to live my fantasy of being a radio host uh by doing podcasts. It's truly a childhood dream come true. So that's number one. Uh, number two, it's been a wonderful way to connect with other people. So, you know, Jakob, you and I have connected, and I feel like even here in this show, you know, we have the music thing in common, we've got the food thing in common, we've got the Toastmasters thing in common. But having guests on my show has been just so fun to help me to get to know them and create a bond with them. And we're giving back, you know, people that talk for a living or they they talk as part of what they do, they want to share. They want to share the things that they know. And I just love giving people a way to do that. Um, and yeah, from a you know, just from a technical standpoint, it's just been kind of fun figuring it all out. And so if anyone has ever thought about having a podcast, I totally encourage you to give it a try. I would love to chat with you about how I did it or how I do it, and uh would love to see other people get into podcasting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think so too. So a couple things to I mean, I'm very passionate about this uh this form. I even started my own personal podcast on the side. You have to message me on LinkedIn, Watchers and Listeners, to find out about that because I'm not uh I'm not putting that in the show notes. It's a secret, half-secret. Uh, but either way, uh it definitely helps with uh with making connections, it definitely makes for a good you know opener for making new connections uh you know in your career, which I think can be very, very useful. And the deep conversations, look, you don't necessarily, if you whether you're looking at a podcast for your career or just personal, you don't necessarily need to think about having a very large listener base. In many cases, for me, the deep conversation itself, kind of the connection that you make through that, what you learn, what the guest learns about themselves through the conversation, that is valuable in itself, even if not very many people uh see that, or you just send it to a few people who f about whom you know that conversation will be relevant to them. That is the one thing that I think people aren't seeing about podcasts. You don't have to be or try to be the most popular podcast in the world, and there are so many wonderful niches. I mean, yours is just you know, I care uh leadership. It would definitely be interesting for for me or uh for me for you to mention uh who you're looking for uh for the podcast in case anybody's listening.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So anyone I love talking to people who focus on ophthalmology and optometry. Anyone who wants to help ophthalmologists and optometrists run better practices is who I want to talk to talk to. I've had optometrists, I've had ophthalmologists, uh, I've had marketing leaders, I've had operations leaders, uh, I've had coaches, mindset coaches. So, you know, if you have something to contribute to help people be lead iCare better, I would love to chat with you on on tape.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. And live the radio host fantasy. I can definitely relate to that. And you said marketing leaders, so what I'm hearing is there's a chance, maybe we'll chat again.
SPEAKER_01There's a chance.
SPEAKER_00Excellent, excellent. Uh that's that's that's so great. And well, I mean, there's ton of there's a ton more we could touch upon. Uh, but I think at this point I would ask you to kind of help the watchers and listeners find out more about you, find out more from you, where where can they access you, your content, where can they find you, so that we put into the show notes and they stay in touch.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you can search for me on LinkedIn, Mike Lyons. And if you want to add SPHR, that's the senior professional and HR certification. Mike Lyons SPHR is a great way to find me on LinkedIn. I'm on at seasoned-advice.com is my website. Great domain name. Can I just say great domain name? Oh, thank you. Thank you. And then the the podcast, um, I care leadership live. Check it out on Apple, Spotify, YouTube. Uh, would love to connect with you and learn more about what you do, great listeners out there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Definitely a great connection to have. I've listened to some episodes of your show, and I really appreciate the diversity of guests you've had and some of the you know, I listened to to a recent episode. I am blanking on the name of the guest, but I will put that episode in the show notes. Her approach, just uh, you know, in terms of a positive mindset. That was one of the recent ones. Uh so maybe yeah, so uh that that one really inspired me, not just for my you know, healthcare marketing career, but in general. In general. So I'll put that in the show notes uh when I remind myself of that of that episode. Yeah. So my insurance question, uh, Mike, anything else that you wanted to add on to what we discussed today for you know for the people uh struggling with uh or maybe looking for ways to get better with management leadership that I neglected to ask you about that you wanted to also share before we close out.
Get Help And Final Takeaways
SPEAKER_01Um get help, you know, get help. Um we all often try to do things therapy. Yeah, yeah, get help. We often try to do things ourselves, and uh finding a great person to give advice, you know, so many times in my life when I've been going through difficult moments, personal, professional, it was another person. It was another person who was able to give me an insight uh or advice, and that's what moves us forward in life. If it was if you could do it all by your I don't know anyone that's a truly self-made person. We we've all learned from other people. A lot, whether it was watching someone do it or having someone mentor us or a podcast or something we learned from a book. You don't come out of the womb knowing how to be awesome at the things you want to do. And so just get help from someone and and uh join a community or get a consultant or find a friend and and commiserate and learn from each other.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it all happens through connections. We're we're a social animal. It's been it's been said, it might be trite advice, but honestly, it bears repeating. I'm gonna repeat it. And on the subject of nobody being self-made on my personal podcast, that's like the leading thought. That's so interesting that you mentioned it in almost the exact same words. Uh so yes, so that means I definitely agree uh with that. And you know, I mentioned, I just want to say say one thing. I mentioned, you know, therapy maybe in a joking manner, but actually that can be a big help if you're in a if you're in a management position. You know, I mean, working with a consultant like yourself, it can be a form of therapy as well. Uh, but that but definitely having somebody that you can safely talk with about your emotions around your work, uh that's that's really, really useful. So unironically, you might want to look into that, and that can really, really help.
SPEAKER_01You know, uh uh just one other book I'll mention, a book that transformed my life is uh Change Your Brain, Change Your Life by Dr. Uh Daniel Eymon, I think is Daniel Eyman. Um, and it's all about at least the thing that I took from that is changing your automatic thoughts. You know, we have these automatic negative thoughts that pop into our brains, and when we start to realize that they're there and change them, it has a transformative effect on our leadership. And yeah, a great therapist can help you to recognize those automatic thoughts and and do things about them. So I'll double-click on that, Jakob. Excellent.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I'm so glad that we added that in uh before we closed off the conversation. Really love this episode, Mike. Thank you so much for coming on on the show. Uh really enjoyed this uh this conversation we had, and I can't wait to to publish this episode. So that'll be it for uh for today, watchers and listeners. Uh definitely go check out Mike, you'll find everything in the in the show notes that we mentioned, as well as you know uh the books uh that we talked about. And for both this show, Scaling Practice Management, and for iCare Leadership Live, don't forget to click follow and subscribe and all those other stuff. Oh, those all those other buttons that give us podcast hosts a nice good hit of dopamine and they keep us going. So definitely 100% that. Yeah, so thank you, Mike, and thank you, watchers and listeners, so so so much for joining us here today. And I'll see you in the next one. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_01Thanks so much for listening to this episode uh with me and Jakob Greysar from Scaling Practice Management. I know it was a really long episode, but Jakob is such a engaging host, and I think we touched on so many cool topics that I had such a good time. I hope you enjoyed it. Anyway, this has been iCare Leadership Live, and we'll see you on the next show.
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