What I Didn't Know: Conversations on Resilience, Healing, and Becoming

EP01: The Art of Setting Boundaries with Chris Ray

• Netanya Allyson • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Chris and I kick off this conversation with my favorite topic of all time: boundaries. It has been the thing I’ve had to work on the most; once I realized I didn’t have any, I set out to go find out what they were about and how to both set and uphold them in all types of relationships. We discuss the importance of setting boundaries in relationships, understanding emotional regulation, and the challenges of navigating personal needs while supporting others.  

Throughout this episode Chris emphasizes the significance of self-awareness, the value of time, and how practicing self-care allows for better support of others. He also talks about how to manage empathy so it doesn’t lead to compassion fatigue, the importance of celebrating small wins and how recovery is a continuous journey of self-discovery. 

SPEAKER_00:

There are moments in life that split us open. Quiet unravelings, sudden breaks, or truths we didn't know we needed until we had no choice. This podcast is about those moments. It's about the turning points that change us. The things I wish someone had told me that I only understand in looking back. Come on in. You belong here. And we're going to talk about all of it. I'm your host, Natanya, and this is What I Didn't Know. Before we begin a quick note, this podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. All right. So today, before you meet Chris, a quick story. When I lived in Colorado, there was a period of time when I was in the hospital and I'm in the hospital in Colorado. My mom still lives in Illinois. And so a few months after I had gotten out, we were on the phone and she was talking to me and she said, you know, while you were in the hospital, I didn't pray for, you know, you to just get better because you might've needed to go through what you were going through as part of your journey? She said, so instead, I just prayed that you'd meet the right people. And after I got out of the hospital, I decided that I was going to quit drinking. And approximately three weeks later, Chris Ray was the first person that I met in recovery. And we spent, I don't know, roughly two, two and a half years working together at a nonprofit in recovery. And he's one of my favorite humans and still a very good friend of mine to this day. So I just wanted to give you that little lowdown before you get to meet him. And I'm just so excited and I hope you enjoy the show. Hi. Hey. I'm so excited you're here, friend. I haven't seen you in, what, when was the last time I saw you? Last fall.

SPEAKER_01:

Not quite a year. Last fall.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

But it was short and brief because you had to run away. I

SPEAKER_00:

didn't have to run away. Something about

SPEAKER_01:

work, responsibilities.

SPEAKER_00:

So I want to talk to you about, I want to start with my favorite topic, which you're also great at. Can you guess what it is that we both had to work at so much? Boundaries? Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, is that

SPEAKER_00:

it? I love that you know

SPEAKER_01:

that. I'm good at it in some ways, and I'm terrible at it in other ways, but it's always a work in progress.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, what do you think, where did it used to be for you before you even started working on it? Just like, yeah, go

SPEAKER_01:

ahead. So where it used to be for me was, I mean, a long time ago, it was... I would do anything and everything to be accepted and to please and to my own detriment. And that was putting myself in legal risk, at my health at risk, my financial self at risk, my all the stuff, you know, to be the person who was accepted and loved and cared for and then I got into recovery because I finally said I've drained myself down enough to a point that I'm spiritually financially physically bankrupt and then I had to rebuild it you know and then I had to learn actually what boundaries are so the first couple years of recovery was let me show you anything and everything so that you can accept this new version of me. Let me bend over backwards. Let me allow, you know, let me answer my phone at two in the morning because you want to talk about how you want to quit drinking. Yeah,

SPEAKER_00:

that was one that I remember specifically was because when we worked together, you had gone And I remember talking to you at one point and people, because clients either weren't respecting that or weren't listening, would still call and text anyway. And at the time you were responding to say, I'm not available.

SPEAKER_02:

And

SPEAKER_00:

we, I remember the conversation we talked about that, how the response, like you were responding to that. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

I set like an away email on my work, on my work email. Like, oh, hey, I'm going to be gone for such and such time. I remember there's a, there's a guy, well, JK, that sent his, I mean, he has a flip phone and then he would set his, he would set his email and he still, it's like something super funny. Like, and that was great. And then I started working with Chow and I remember Aaron, our CEO, I think still, still has this, kind of she's altered it a little bit but it was the first time I saw it it said something to the effect of I will answer your email in two to three days and that's how I operate I mean it was something to that effect but just being like not every form of communication is urgent communication

SPEAKER_00:

yeah go ahead

SPEAKER_01:

well and I think that that also that stems from me wanting to control everything and know the outcome on my end.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

The boundaries are a safety thing. Like I need to know. So if I need to know, then you probably also need to know. So I'm going to make you feel safe by giving you access and letting you know, but not giving any space for the unknown. And I think that's a really disservice, not only to myself, but to everybody else. And it doesn't allow trust. Yeah, I like that. So really just that kind of, I mean, and it's the same thing. Like if, if I, if I want an answer to something, I used to have to be like, well, I need to know right away. Like why, why is it like rude? I need to know what's going on. Are you mad at me? What can I do to fix it immediately? Rather than saying, you know, I think, I think a lot of what I've been working on is, you know, if, if you need something for me and I can't do it, like I just can't do it. I don't need to bend over backwards. I might be able to direct you to somebody that can. But people don't like that, especially people in recovery. People that don't have any boundaries don't like boundaries.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. I love that saying. It's one of my favorites. And it reminded me, when you were talking about that, it reminded me of a, it was a training that I had taken with Kate. And I think it was CCAR training. And it was, and we did, there was a whole section on crises. And it was like 10 different summary examples of situations. And we had to go through and determine what a crisis was and what wasn't a crisis. And I mean, we do it all individually. And then we kind of got in teams and talked about it, whatever. And I mean, they're all different types of situations. Someone's, you know, their rent is late or all these different things that that can put people into states of stress. And the answer, like at the end, when we got to the final thing was that none of them were crises.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

None of them. Because what people get overwhelmed about or stressed out or frustrated or what puts them in a heightened state of anxiety is many things that are not actually a crisis. And so especially when you work

SPEAKER_01:

in that world. secure. really less things are crisis right less things less things constitute a crisis um i had my eyes here because i'm on my phone and this feels a lot better and i can see you

SPEAKER_00:

my glasses are somewhere i actually put them on and we will match

SPEAKER_01:

yeah i noticed last night i was at a restaurant i couldn't see the menu um so yeah i mean and i think that's just i mean a great example of crisis and boundaries because i also not only did i not have you know, I mean, it just goes, boundaries are so back and forth. Like, I mean, I was driving down the pass on Friday and I didn't get such on you and I drive it off the pass and my engine blew up, man, that sucks. Right. It's awful. It's, it's just, you know, it is what it is. It's it, I, I, I was actually literally saying, Oh, this car's running great. I just, you know, stuff. And then, you know, I got into it, whatever engine blew up and I didn't like start calling everybody and be like, Oh my God, you know, this is awful. This is, this happened to me, blah, blah, blah. No, I said, all right, well, what do I do next? Uh, this, I'm in a safe spot. This isn't necessarily a crisis. A tow truck driver pulled up behind me. I was able to talk to my insurance. I was able to kind of, you know, figure out a way to get the car to Denver. It's a holiday weekend. Nobody's going to answer. I still don't, nobody has talked to me about it because they don't come into the shop on on Monday, but I was just like, I'm going to bring it down there. I don't need to know what's going to happen. I'm able to step into the unknown and just let this be. So I'm not going to try to find some shop that's open on a Friday or a holiday weekend. I'm not going to do all these things that just go down the line and see what I can put in front of the other. And that is allowing... The boundaries of what's possible for me, what the universe has allowed me to be in, like some friends couldn't come and pick me up. They have boundaries. I'm not going to be like, well, what do I do? I just call down the line. Much like in recovery, I'm having a bad weekend. I need to talk to somebody. I'm having a craving. I need to talk to somebody. If my sponsor doesn't answer or if my best friend doesn't answer, what do I do? I don't just keep calling them back.

SPEAKER_02:

I

SPEAKER_01:

just go down the line and say well they're doing something. Maybe somebody is available. And take

SPEAKER_00:

that next step. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, you didn't do that

SPEAKER_01:

overnight. that you want the best for, you know, family, things like that. It's, it's really tough. when you really just want the best for them. And you really, you're just trying to shake them and show them that, you know, this is not the way. Don't, people please. But that, what I always say with people, and you and I have practiced this together, and I remember saying this to each other a number of times, was, hey, if you need to practice, practice on me. I'm a good note. You know, especially good friends. You know, I may actually want to really stretch my schedule, or I may want to actually do something something that is very very inconvenient for me but you said you need help and i might just practice with you say hey you know what maybe you should find somebody else because then that's helping me build a muscle where it's something that i like it's not necessarily that i can't do it it's not like i'm at the end of my rope i can't do it it's just it's a little inconvenient and why don't i give you the opportunity to reach outside of your of of this and see if somebody else can help you. And, and, you know, that's, that's, that's practicing for me, building a muscle for when I am at the end of my rope, or if I am talking to somebody that I don't feel comfortable with boundaries or I don't want to have boundaries with, because I, I desperately still want them to be in my life or I want them to show up in a certain way. And I think that's, that's a really valuable part of friendship for me is, is when I can practice that or when people practice that with me.

SPEAKER_03:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

you know i didn't know i'll go back to the car again i had somebody say no and i wasn't like i wasn't like hey but you know you know but you said you do do anything you said you said call me if you need anything i'm calling and i need something

SPEAKER_00:

yeah okay you're

SPEAKER_01:

busy i'm gonna go down the line

SPEAKER_00:

yeah well and even i love because there's there's big things and there's little things like at one point like we function it's one of my favorite things about you specifically is that you and i have some things that are very very similar in common that we had to work on and functionally we are so different right and like one of the things that um you are more of a night owl than i am right and i remember well maybe that was well i don't go

SPEAKER_01:

to bed at 8 30 i think that's probably it i go to bed at midnight and i wake up at six

SPEAKER_00:

yeah that's a night owl yeah but there was it was a work thing at one point and you had called me and it was like nine o'clock at night to talk about i think a client that called you and it was but it's the point of practicing because i was on comfortable because I care about you and I want you to know that I support you that I support you at work that you know whatever and I want you to know that I'm here for you and it's past my bedtime right so like how do you say that 6

SPEAKER_01:

30 p.m

SPEAKER_00:

how do you like it but to be able to like vocalize that and to honor that like I want you to like to to transmit the fact that I care about you and I care about this topic and it's important and in the future if it's past 8 30 don't call me about work

SPEAKER_02:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

it was a it wasn't even that you called me it was about work like for me at that time work ended yeah you know 5 5 30 unless we had an event and so and it dragged me into then I'm done talking to you at 9 30 and I can't decompress

SPEAKER_01:

well and also what that does is it teaches it teaches the person oh hey maybe maybe this is something you can learn from because I would call you know through the process of me working and us working together and now I'm still going through that process of hey I'm available between these hours you call me you're not sleeping on my couch I'm not answering your call at midnight I'm not you know coming to pick you up to do this like and that and that helps people develop their own skills and their own way of problem solving

SPEAKER_02:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

and I mean I think to the same effect you said on Thursday or whatever it was Wednesday for this you were like oh what are you doing you know this weekend night and I'm like I'm fucking I'm out partying you know like I'm out on a Friday and Saturday night so we have to do Sunday morning or Sunday afternoon which you know no detail to that but um but it is yeah it's funny like so so conversely you saying don't call me at this time also allows me and gives me the space to say hey I feel comfortable with this person because they have stated their I also feel comfortable stating my own and there's no like hard feelings. It's just we'll figure it out.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, and it goes back to that that saying, which I didn't understand for a long time and then I didn't like, which is you teach people how to treat you.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And so by having those conversations, I mean, like, hey, I'm available for this. I'm not available for that. And then setting the boundary is the easy part. It's the upholding the boundary. That's the hard part. Right. Especially if it's something you want

SPEAKER_01:

or something that you consider to be a crisis, right? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Sorry, I got excited. But you specifically, you have impressively worked on that so much in the past several years, especially with people you love.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And I mean, it falters sometimes, but it is... I think more so I've worked on my need to know. I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's going on with this person. I don't know what's going on with this situation. I don't know how things are going to turn out. But that's okay, right? I can step into the unknown and let things unfold in ways that before I could not. And that's, you know, a lot of that's trauma work. A lot of that's understanding you can't control every situation, nor should you.

SPEAKER_00:

And

SPEAKER_01:

it's a lot of higher power stuff.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, which is, I mean, you're right in the realm of trust, surrender and letting go, right? Yeah. What do you think has helped you the most to move into that from being that over functioning former version of yourself that really gripped a lot because you didn't trust into moving into what I've seen you do over the past few years, which is actively practicing how to settle and let go. And even especially when we go back to how we function differently, you are very extroverted. You're very motion based. You're doing Yeah. We talked about it afterwards, and I remember you saying that Shavasana was the hardest part for you, was like the surrender.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, 100%, that, especially in the first year or two of my recovery period. I mean, I've told you this story a number of times, but I think it's worth saying is that right out of rehab here at the foundry, I went back to Indianapolis and I volunteered at a yoga studio. And I would sit in shavasana and I had to be there a few classes a week. And especially early in the morning, I was sitting in shavasana and I would just like, I mean, I would audibly bang my hand because I... I couldn't sit still and it was so frustrating. And it was so, so frustrating. And I had to learn how to sit still. I had to learn how to be okay with myself. And that is such an acute physical manifestation of uncomfortability. And I mean, it still gets me to this day because I think of myself and I think of how... Sorry, my glasses are a little wonky. I think of how... I watch people get up before Shavasana now. And I mean, I, I literally, sometimes if I have someone I'm close to and I see them do that, I'm like, why'd you do that? Like, you're not able to sit still. That might be a little projecting, but whatever. Um, and one of the things that I, I really actively practice, um, is, um, Sometimes I'll go into a class, especially a hot power class, and just... either sit out a number of poses or sit out one out of a sequence of three and just sit there while everybody else around me is moving and try to stay as still as possible not in sleep I wear my eyes open I'm looking forward and stillness while the rest of the world around me is moving and I was inspired from that through a fellow yogi who came into a class and sat there the whole class and I was just blown away I was blown away she didn't move a lick she after the class I was like what did you do what did you do that whole thing she's like I needed to rest and I was like so beautiful so I think how I how I switched that off to get back to your question was that I started becoming comfortable with myself I started becoming comfortable in my own skin and And that has taken and is taking a long time. I mean, Costa Rica has helped.

SPEAKER_00:

I like that you said is taking though, that like this is a thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, this, you know, what is, I mean, especially as a man, a lot of the times as a human, as an American, my value oftentimes is placed upon my productivity.

SPEAKER_00:

Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

And it is, rest is resistance. I think we hear that a decent amount now. And it's so true. And I started hearing that phrase a few years ago, four years ago. And it is a practice that I continually try to embody. Because it is. It's wild when someone comes up to you and you say, hey, how you been? All busy. I've been busy. I've been busy. And that is what they're doing or what we're taught and they're consciously or subconsciously doing. He's saying, I am of value. I am contributing to productivity. Therefore, look at me and I am worthy. I'm not saying that that's 100%. I'm not talking about black and white in this. But what I am saying is that it doesn't have to be the first thing. And I practice trying to say, you know, I've been hanging out and sometimes I'm like, I've been busy because I've been busy. But other times, you know, when they say that and I was with them, the friend's dad back in Cincinnati. If he sees this, he's going to remember. And his dad's a businessman. He's a developer and this, that, the other. Great guy. Love him to death. We were at their lake house and just the three of us sitting in. And I go, how you been? He goes, oh, busy, busy. He goes, how you been? What have you been up? I've been chilling, trying to work as little as possible. You know, which is, you know, I, you know, I'm even trying to justify it now, right? But the, I mean, he was He's just like, what you got going on? Yeah. You can tell he was taken aback. Like, what do you mean? You should be busy.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and that I remember seeing this a couple of years ago somewhere online. And it was, I think, a Facebook friend or something. And it was somebody posting about and they tagged someone I knew in the post. And it was about how she was such a great mom. And it was essentially the super mom. Oh, because she does this, this and this. She's always at sports. whatever. She's always got Gatorade for all the kids. And then she teaches. And then she would like, it was all about how much she does out in the world. And they were applauding that, which the intention was, it was meant to be complimentary. But what it's really doing is like shoving. And I also happen to know this person and she was exhausted. Yeah. And burnt out. Yeah. And like on the verge of tears. And that's what's like, they're cheerleading, right? That that's where the value in a woman or a mom comes from. is how much she can do for her kids and her community and that was it was a high five right which is it's the problems the amount of problems wrong with that are you know a lot but

SPEAKER_01:

yeah I mean it is it's so like and what happens when mom gets sick

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

dad gets fired yeah or gets injured

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_01:

you know I twisted my ankle and okay and then let's help them how do we get them back Oh, my God. is prenatal, you know, pregnancy care before, during and after and Western society and how we Try to yank the baby out and get everybody back to work, basically. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Or even the thing I've heard often in the culture of women after pregnancy is the getting– how do I get my body back? And it's like you don't. And I don't mean that in a mean way. I mean your body changes through that experience. So whatever happens, like– I mean, it's a new version of it.

SPEAKER_01:

What's the end goal? Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Well, and even, you know, we were talking earlier about some of our differences. And one of the things that I think people misconstrue a lot is extroversion versus introversion. Right. And I think sort of societally that's misconstrued as being outgoing or being shy, which is not true. Right. The source of those words and how they function is in energy, where you get energy from. Right. And so even so yesterday or whatever, a couple of days ago, I was helping with the Fourth of July stuff downtown. And I am an introvert, which means Yeah. And I'm like, I want to punch people and go home. And so I learned again through being an adult and being empathic that I feel people a lot, that I take that on even though I don't mean to and how to manage that better so that I can function in those systems. Whereas someone who is extroverted will often gain energy from being around people and it will fuel them and they have a little bit more of that than I do. Right. And so where I was going with this is the other day I was helping with the Fourth of July stuff downtown and we started at like 730 in the morning. And I am in output mode and it's hot. It's like 95 in Nashville, right? And it's not, you're not buying an ocean. There's no breeze. And so we're doing stuff. Yeah, we're doing stuff all day long. And it got to be like two o'clock and I volunteered for the day. And it got to be like two o'clock and we were done with all the setup. We're just hanging out talking to people at this point. And I had just met some of these people and I turned to the guy next to me and I was like, I'm going to go home. And he just looks at me and I was like, I'll be back. I'll be back in like three hours, but I need a break. And I just said, I explained what I just said to you and I said if I don't do this if I keep trying to push through by like 6 o'clock I'm going to crash and I'm going to be an ugly version of me and I'm not going to stay for the fireworks or stay for anything for the rest of the night because I will have crossed that line and then I'll just leave for the night and I won't care at all and then I'll be mad later that I missed the whole point of why I was there and so we were talking about it and he's like I get like that too and so I was like okay well I'm going to go home and he said I think I'm going to push through no he said I'm going to push through. And I said, OK. So I came home. I decompressed. I just chilled out. I ate some food, air conditioning, whatnot. And then it was like 5.30, I think. And I called a Lyft to get back over there. And I got a text from him right as I was getting in the Lyft. And he was like, I should have listened to you. I'm so wiped. And he's like, I'm going to go try to take a nap on the lawn over there. But I'm really having a hard time. And I just laughed. But I also, I've been there and that's why I do this now and I manage it better because I have not listened to that so many times that I know how it'll go for me but still that thing of like I should be here I should stay because I volunteered for the whole day it's like first of all I'm a volunteer I didn't have to do this at all we did all the hard part and this other stuff isn't till later you don't need me right now you know and but to honor that in the midst and they all looked at me like what do you mean you're going home right nobody was mad I just kind of I just said you know I'm gonna go take a break it's hot and I'll be And they were like, oh, okay. But it was a moment of like, if you don't feel permission to do that yourself, you'll question when other people do it too.

SPEAKER_01:

And then when somebody does it, you give others permission. That's beautiful. And it's something that came up for me. And again, I think we're continually diving deeper into the accessibility of autonomy, which is also boundaries. I have autonomy. Yeah. Similar situation, I was in a Buddhist retreat where I was volunteering for the week back in May. And It was– they really integrated boundaries as practice in Zen Buddhism. It's at the Crestone Retreat down there. And the abbot was like, okay, before you go off and do your task for the day, you're going to clean this. I'm going to give you something to clean for 10 minutes.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And you don't have to say, I'm going to start and finish this certain cleaning process in 10 minutes, so I have to navigate what I can clean in 10 minutes. No, you have a whole house. In my case, it was the whole house, big hallway to clean, but I only had 10 minutes. When that 10 minutes is up, stop. It doesn't matter where you are. It doesn't matter that you didn't finish. Stop. And then go on and go to your other task. And at the end of the day, we're done at work at, you know, whatever it was, 3.30. Stop. Like, find a stopping point. The task does not have to be completely done. And if you need to rest, rest. You know, you have permission to rest. And it was this... Even though you said you were running out of energy, I think in your example, what I'm hearing is that you're trying to create more abundance of your energy for what you wish to spend that energy on.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, yes, exactly. So

SPEAKER_01:

in order to do that, you're not operating from scarcity saying, oh, I'm tired of this. Like, hey, no, I want more energy for later. I know that that is my intended goal is to see the fireworks, to be present, and to be fully myself for the space that I can be. So therefore, I need to take rest. And I'm going to honor that. And, you know, you don't see that too often people burn, I mean, burnout, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

overextending yourself.

SPEAKER_00:

And I was in, I spent, you know, I have my second degree is in teaching, I spent a little bit of time in the teaching system. And I will not forget this, because it was just one of the years that I was there, like you had certain amount of days that you can take off. They're given to you, whatever. And if you don't use them, they will roll over. Right. So it is common in teaching for teachers to not use those days to collect them because then they keep them. And if you're going to be a teacher for many years, that adds up to a year or so or whatever off of retirement. Right. So you can retire a year early or however much time that you have saved. Right. You know, I have a this is I get all feisty about this, but I won't do that. I mean,

SPEAKER_01:

I'm getting feisty just thinking about it. Anyway, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00:

But at the time I was in a school and I was very intent on taking all of my days because I use them to reset. I need a break. I'm a little burnt out. I'm whatever. I wasn't taking big trips. I was just taking like I'm going to take this Wednesday off to break up my week. But there was a subtle like non-spoken about response from other teachers whenever I said I was taking a day off. And I'm trying to explain it because it's not overt, right? They're not like directly saying things, but there would be things like, oh, you're taking the other day off. That must be nice. Yeah. And I'm like, you have the same days that I have, right? But it's like sort of frowned upon by people who don't feel like they have the freedom to do that or choose not to do that. They have the same days that I have. In fact, many of them had many more. But if the culture is such that there's sort of a subtle implication that you're not working as hard or you're like that that's the way we do things here and you're breaking that culture or going against it it is frowned upon and like i said the way of which it happens was very subtly like slid into conversations until i

SPEAKER_01:

actually perhaps

SPEAKER_00:

yeah yes very much so and i remember at one point i happened to be in the hallway and i saw these other two teachers who had been there for many years and i just heard them talking to each other during like a passing period and they were talking about heat It was a guy, it was a man and a woman. And he was talking about how many days he had left before retirement because of how many days he'd saved up. And she was in agreement and in her own version of how many days they, not competing, but like, oh, I have this many and I have that many. And I remember thinking, like, there's certain moments where I make choices and I remember that like across my life. And I just remember thinking, I will never do that ever. And I get it. I understand why people do that and what the mindset is. It's just not Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

There's so much to unpack there because it is, I mean, I think teachers, nonprofit where we worked in together, nonprofit, I mean, hospitality.

SPEAKER_00:

Any like service industry where you're caring is part of your job and empathy and giving and nurturing or whatever.

SPEAKER_01:

It's weaponized and martyrdom becomes the currency of value.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, that was good.

SPEAKER_01:

Where just like you are, oh my God, so-and-so has so many organizations and does so much. And I can't tell you how many times I've met people that are in recovery and the nonprofit work. I grew up, my mother was a teacher. She had pretty good boundaries then. But other teachers that I've known, I mean, I work still in hospitality in the mental health space. Chefs, I mean, one of the highest suicide rates in any industry is among chefs. Where... oh, they're here when the place opens, they're here when the place closed, they don't take a day off and it's looked upon as this celebratory thing. But what's behind that, right? What's their family life like? What's their health like? What's their physical health, mental health? How are they abusing substances? Is their partner happy? Are their children happy? I mean, you see it in the mental health space in psychiatrists and therapists and things like that. How often do they work so hard at getting the outside world to approve of them while their family or their own mental health deteriorates? And specifically to reflect upon like the teachers, just the hardest working, most, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

They work so hard.

SPEAKER_01:

They work so hard and it's because they care so much. And people, and how many finance bros do you know that don't do shit, just move money around and, you know, make millions and millions of dollars. Some of them in that time as well, I do know some people that work in finance that have sacrificed in the same way where they don't spend time with their families, lawyers, things like that. But they get paid, right? Here's a question. What do you think is worth more, time or money?

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, there's a, I mean, it is, it's, I, like you, actually rest nowadays, which I didn't used to. Central America has taught me some deep, deep lessons along with plant medicine, which is another reason why I've really come to view time as it's valuable, but it's also infinite for me. So there's no rush, right? Because when time is so valuable, I can look at it in this scarcity mindset.

SPEAKER_00:

I

SPEAKER_01:

only have so much time and we'll go back to I need to control this thing because I only have so much time I need to have this person do what I want them to do because I only have so much time rather when time is seen as precious and abundance it's still because if it's in abundance it is so precious then it will happen when it needs to happen for most things not everything sometimes you're like I need to get to the store I you know I'm not going to show up 15 minutes late or an hour late that's just disrespect but when I'm trying to get something done it is going to happen when it's going to happen and it seems to fall in place when it needs to fall in place and that is Complicated.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. How has that worked for you with working still in the, like, restaurant industry, but in the angle that you're working now? I

SPEAKER_01:

mean, I see, like, I was actually working at a restaurant a couple years ago here in Steamboat, and the owner said to me, and I hear it a lot now because it's stuck, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Yes.

UNKNOWN:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And it feels like when I'm rushing, when I'm in the weeds, another, I saw another, a friend of mine said the other day, he learned from another restaurateur here, that being in the weeds is just perspective. You know, you're not in the weeds if you don't think you are. Like, it's just all perspective. So I think if you're, you know, why am I in the weeds? Let's take that example. Why am I in the weeds? Why am I behind on tickets if I'm a chef? Why am I... Why am I on a two-hour wait? It's because I tried to please everybody. I tried to say, oh, yes, we'll get you in. And as a customer, I'd rather someone say, it's going to be an hour. Are you willing to wait an hour? And then it's 45 minutes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Then it's going to, oh, you know, I want you to stay. I really need you here. I want your business. It's only going to be five minutes. I'm going to make it happen. Mm-hmm. And then it's 45 minutes. And then I'm like, well, if you just would have told me it would have been 45 minutes, I would have been fine. Then I could have made the choice around whether it was valuable for me to stay. And then I'm happy, right? I'm happy if you sat me in 45 minutes and you said it was going to be an hour. I'm unhappy if you told me it was going to be five and it ends up being 15. And even though the 15 is a shorter time than the 45, my perspective is that you don't have boundaries. is that

SPEAKER_02:

yes

SPEAKER_01:

you don't understand yeah you're just you're just trying to you're not being honest with yourself or with me and i mean i think that's a tangible hard example of something i've experienced of how to really piss people off is to tell them you can do something when you can't yeah and even though i really love to get you sat in five minutes believe me but i can't i'd love to yeah

SPEAKER_00:

and i used to talk about this when i i would talk to hosts in the restaurant that I worked at, like pick a restaurant because I would talk about this a lot, because they would seat people. And if the server is busy or overloaded at that point in time, the people then have to wait at the table. And that waiting, you just told them to wait at the door for five minutes. Waiting at the door for five minutes is not equivalent to waiting at the table five minutes. It's a very different experience. Waiting at the door is no big deal. Everybody's like, cool, five minutes. I'm going to make a

SPEAKER_01:

call. I'm going to go look at Yeah, sure. We're

SPEAKER_00:

talking about five minutes. But if you seat someone and the guests are sitting at a table waiting for a server for five minutes before they see anyone, that feels like an eternity. And so I was like, it's in perspective and how you handle the situation. They're not equal, right? But training and around the functionality of how we think about that. I'm a big proponent just how I do anything is can I under-promise and over-deliver?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Freaking, like I live my life on it. that all the time what can I and I will I repeatedly do that and I want to do that but I try really hard to commit like commitment to me is very important I try to be very clear people ask me to do stuff all the time I try to be very clear what is the ask because I've said this before I've said this to you I remember specifically you asked me to do something and I was in a hurry and whatever and I just said yes and then I remember calling you later and being like hey I know that I said yes to that I was flustered and I would like to know what are like what's the ask what are you actually asking of me so I can think about it and decide whether I can give it to you or not because otherwise we just say yes because we want to make someone happy or we want to whatever and then I'm behind and I'm resentful

SPEAKER_01:

yeah and I'm not going to do what you

SPEAKER_00:

ask me to

SPEAKER_01:

do a good job no or even yeah I'm either not going to do it all or I'm not going to do a good job of doing

SPEAKER_00:

it yeah that was a big

SPEAKER_01:

that was a big um part of my of last year i i and it also when you talk to a host like that and you're talking about sitting tables you have a precedent so then you have an example so that when the next host comes in they know because you set a boundary instead of stating from the get-go we're you know we're gonna like dominoes you know for years 30 minutes or less 30 minutes or less now you're lucky if you get it in an hour but you know it is like you set a precedent and you and you know what your capabilities are. So with a host, hey, it's going to fluctuate. It's going to change. If it's 4th of July weekend, our wait's most likely going to be on an hour for most of the weekend. And when I did, when I worked the plant medicine retreat last winter, I had no precedent. I had no understanding of what I should feel like, what the base level was of what I should be doing. And I had to figure that out for myself. And I had to listen to my body I had to listen to my spirit I had to listen to the capabilities of of myself and then when I felt that when I felt like I was getting stressed I had to use all those other times where I'd set boundaries or I was able to speak up for myself and say I'm not I don't feel like this is right I don't feel like my body or my spirit can handle this anymore and I need to take a break and even though I didn't I my precedent was blank. I didn't know. I thought I was doing a bad job. I sat and I sat as a doorman for over 30 ceremonies in the rainy season in like three months, which then I started speaking up. I remember when someone actually came up to me, one of the facilitators and I'm sitting there and he was just like, and I knew they were all exhausted too. And he was just like, Hey man, are you all right? And that's all, honestly, all it took. And I was just like, No, I'm not. I'm not all right. And it really, like, it took somebody penetrating that hard shell that I had of commitment, of expectations, and of not knowing to say, hey, like, how actually, as we say often, like, how are you really, right? To say to me, when Robert said that to me, how are you really? It wasn't like, hey, how are you? It was like, how are you? And it sunk and it hit me. And it really, I can picture it now, it hit me to the core of like, it was almost like an awakening of like, I'm not well, and I need help. And then having boundaries and having practice, I was able to say, and this is the way that I need help. And I reached out in a way that I knew how to reach out. And then when I started reaching out, you know, everybody around me and the organization said, oh, yeah, like, you shouldn't be doing that. This was out of the realm of normalcy. We'll see. And we're, we, you know, we're going to correct that and let's, let's shift instead of, instead of which in the past. If I have a relationship, whether it's with a job or with a lover or with family, maybe not recently in the past couple of years, but in the past, I would hit my breaking point and then it would be black or white. I'm either in or I'm out, right? Something's wrong, I'm either in or I'm out. Instead, now I'm able to say, this part of this is not feeling good. I don't even have to say it's wrong. It doesn't feel like this is in line with what I'm capable of. Let's figure out a way to make this relationship work for both of us, whether it's work, whether it's romantic, and shift it so that it feels good for both of us and see if that is something that we can come to terms on. And with the Ayahuasca Retreat Center, I was able to do that without resentment. And I was able to, you know, I started teaching yoga more. I started doing pickups with them. And I sat in lesson ceremony. And then, you know, I was able to recover physically. And so I really, you know, that was just last winter. And I probably had it been two winters ago or three winters ago or, you know, 10 years ago. It would have driven me into a really dark space.

UNKNOWN:

Mm hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's really nice. It's a really beautiful thing to be able to navigate that gray space Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. In those conversations, it was really beautiful because I think it's just a space to talk about things that you don't get to talk about, right? But I noticed at one point I was in a couple meetings and people were, you know, not doing great on that scale. And I would come in and like have a really good day. And then I almost feel like I can't celebrate, right? Because the sort of the setup is to talk about things that are hard, which is beautiful. But then I was like, am I too happy for, you know, like, should I tone it down? Like the celebration of how good my life's gotten it so that I'm on the same page as everyone and so it took me a little while to practice and that this just in my head that's not you know they didn't set that up that's just in my head of like

SPEAKER_01:

oh yeah

SPEAKER_00:

that I can't and that's it that's a childhood thing for me actually which is that like I can't shine too much I have to dim it because I don't want to make anyone else feel

SPEAKER_01:

bad then I better be upset too I better I better tone my mood down because the household is in disarray

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, well, and I don't mind was like, I watched different people struggling with things. And so I didn't want to add to the struggle. So I'm going to just be in the in the corner metaphorically of like, let me take up as little room as possible. So I don't. And then I'm always like, Oh, I'm good. I'm good. You know, like, whatever. So I'm sort of like, I'm good, but I'm not great. But I'm just out of the way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. When you're like, really bubbling inside, like, man, I'm having a really good day.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, but it's just I want to celebrate

SPEAKER_01:

that. But if someone else isn't, and I we do that often in chow. I mean, there's, there's very, very often that, you know, a couple of people will check in well done. And I mean, in all honesty, some really, really, really heavy stuff. I mean, they're, they're confidential meetings. We're not going to share what it is, but much like in, in recovery. And I think 12 step rooms do a really good job of that. And chow is not a 12 step group. It's not a recovery group, but I think modeling that someone can be just getting out of jail or they had, you know, Someone passed away that same day and I go into two 12 step rooms all over the country, all over the world. And, you know, someone can check in and say, my husband died of an overdose yesterday. Right. And then you go down the line and someone else can say, you know, I got a new job today and I just had a baby and I just got out of rehab and I'm celebrating three years sober and for 30 days sober. And and it could be held in the same way. space. Yeah. And I think that's really special about 12 Step. And it's something that when you said earlier, I made myself small. I think that's a really strong reflection and a really good lesson of being able to say I can hold both at the same times and allowing other people to have grief And have compassion for that grief, but not dive into that with them.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Then that

SPEAKER_01:

circles back around the boundaries.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. And yet, that was great. But full circle because we had, and again, I've had a lot of training in my jobs over the years. But one of the examples I liked the best. Yes. Oh, yes. And your experience is better than

SPEAKER_02:

training. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. And being in situations where I'm having to practice all this actively in real time. Right. But one of the best metaphors or example that I examples I liked of that of what you just said is like was in compassion fatigue training right when we we would get I would get burnt out especially like I can feel people and it has taken me years to understand that even the word empath like doesn't do it justice like I literally can feel them and I take it on and sometimes don't even know it and I have had to learn how to handle that so I function better right but as a as a person when you had when I had clients and they are in very heavy very deep very dark spaces and I'm in conversation around that how to not take that on myself because it was depleting me because I cared right and so to but anyway what the example was that it was the boat it was like if you're on a boat I can't remember you'll have to help me with this if you're on a boat if

SPEAKER_01:

you're in a canoe and somebody's drowning and you have a life preserver compassion is throwing them the life preserver say here's a tool for you to use if you decide that you want to grab onto that it's going to help you because someone threw it for me one time but empathy is jumping in trying to grab them and they drag you down with them and then you're both in the water and then you're both in the water and most likely you're going to have a hard time and I think that is one of the hardest practices is that is when you watch someone drown and you do you know you watch someone die I've watched many people die yeah I've watched many people go back into addiction. I've watched many people go back into just mental health struggles or go back to a job they don't like or go back to a relationship that's bad for them.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And there's the tools out there for them to do it. And I've done it myself. Right. But.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that is the, it really plays into that whole rare and well done. Like I can be rare and you can be well done and we can sit in the same room and that's okay. And if you're mad at me because I'm rare and you're well done, or I'm mad at you because you're rare and I'm well done, then that's a deeper problem.

SPEAKER_00:

One that, that like, I don't, it's not, I can't rescue, fix and save.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Yeah. I haven't heard you say that all, all those whole time, which is a modern miracle. I

SPEAKER_00:

love it. It's good. I had to work on it so much. I can't rescue, fix, and save. And

SPEAKER_01:

you have to reiterate it to people that you care about when they're trying to rescue, fix, and save others. And that's seen as heartless among some groups, especially groups that celebrate martyrdom.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Like, you should be working tirelessly and sacrifice your life in order to fix these individuals or systems that are failing. And, you know, that's a larger conversation. But I mean, it is like, you know, we, I've said this in many aspects, but I think it's always worth saying is, especially in teaching, in recovery, in mental health, in a lot of areas that you and I have seen a lot of these Yeah. Yeah. And if we don't get to those, it just, and as we see, you know, I don't, it's so hard. As we see in a larger scale, more and more people are falling into that river and more, and we're trying to save more and more. And then just like the canoe reference, we fall right in with them. And how many peer specialists or teachers or mental health advocates relapse or ignore their own health or ignore their relationships and their family in order to help others or try to change the symptoms at the symptoms rather than at the larger systems. And then it's a big ask.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And there's no hero

SPEAKER_01:

in it. There's no hero in it, right? There's no like, I, you know, helped Susie find a job and, you know, she didn't, she didn't kill herself this week. And, and, you know, it's like, cool. There's, there's 10 more people down the river, you

SPEAKER_00:

know? Yeah. And it's like, I think, and I think you and I both function this way kind of generally in whatever we're doing. I will speak for myself, but I just know you well enough to know you do a lot of that too, which is I keep coming back to me. I keep taking care of me and trying to work on me because the more I do that and the more I voice it out loud, the more that I think I hopefully give other people permission to do the same. And I think that's how we teach, right? Is by going out and being in the world and being in a part of that and creating impact and picking at people along the way and being like, hey, you can do this too, right? In whatever way. No, oh no. It's in the quiet conversations. Yeah. I mean,

SPEAKER_01:

when I first got into recovery the first couple, three years, it was like, here's what I'm doing. Here's how I help somebody. This is it. Look at me. And it is, it's much more subtle and you celebrate less pain rather than you know it's not it's not like it's not you're not celebrating winning you're just celebrating less pain which is you can't quantify that and you don't get awards for it

SPEAKER_00:

no you don't get awards for it and there have been times there have been times throughout that process where I've said no to helping because it was actually detrimental to me

SPEAKER_01:

yeah right

SPEAKER_00:

anyway

SPEAKER_01:

I had someone I had someone say to me last summer because I have a so boat you know and we started off with a real kick. We have like, you know, we still have like 1,500 people. It's just a little, it's like a forum for people to get together. But first we make t-shirts and we do

SPEAKER_00:

this. I was wearing mine the other day. I

SPEAKER_01:

have mine. It's great. You know, at some point it may expand into some other things. I have some ideas, but it's where it's at now because I'm exploring these other things. But I had someone say to me because I had quit my health partnership job and I had someone say to me actually last 4th of July They go, I just thought you would have done more with that. Oh, like, and, and, you know, it was like in a real, like, and I was like, I mean, obviously it still sticks with me. It's a year later and it still sticks with me because I, you know, it's very hard to untrain your mind of value of productivity. And it was someone in the, in the nonprofit world. And I was just like, I was like, I mean, I responded and like, okay, yeah, appreciate that and I walked off you know but again it is you know a year later it still sticks with me

SPEAKER_02:

and

SPEAKER_01:

it sticks with me because it's a lesson in allowing others to be disappointed in you and I think that is that for me is something that I work with my men's group now a lot is how do we allow others to be disappointed with us without trying to appease them to the detriment of ourselves And if I'm stay, if I know, if I'm confident, if I'm healthy, if I'm practicing, if I'm doing all that I can and someone's disappointed in me, that's really not my thing. Like be disappointed in me. And how do I handle that? How do I allow them to be disappointed and not let it affect my day to day? And I, and I, I really found that as a, as a stump, as a starting off point or maybe even a midpoint in really practicing, uh, Allowing people to have expectations of you that you cannot and do not intend to meet.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Well, I am so glad that you're here. I could just sit and talk to you for another six hours. I

SPEAKER_01:

think we got to one question. Did you have three more? Do you have another three hours? No,

SPEAKER_00:

but it's perfect. And I appreciate you so much. Thank you for spending time with me. And I always like one of the reasons I have you here is not just because I'm friends with you and really life right it's because I value your perspective on things and you challenge me right when I come up against something you'll be like hey like are you sure about that and I value that so so appreciately or so much so I appreciate that but thank you for being here love you for spending time with me I love you too we'll talk soon

SPEAKER_01:

all right see you thanks bye

SPEAKER_00:

bye