EP05: The Road to Acceptance and a Writer's Second Chance with Michael Carlson

This week, we sit down for a powerful conversation with Michael Carlson, who opens up about his experience growing up in a military family and the lasting impact of his father’s alcoholism and PTSD.

Michael dives deep into the challenge of finding his way back to himself, the complexities of 'clean time' versus true recovery, and how writing became his necessity and portal for healing.

We also get personal: Michael asks about my favorite part of the podcasting process, and I reveal the thing that matters most—the hope that someone will hear this and feel less alone.

For anyone carrying the weight of missed opportunities, this is your permission slip—a powerful reminder that every moment is a second chance to begin again. It’s a deep dive into finding peace, truth, and hope for anyone who feels they are running out of time.

Full show notes at https://www.netanyaallyson.com/episodes/05

Transcript

Netanya 0:18

Come on in. You belong here. And we're gonna talk about your post and Tanya and that is what I need to know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Michael Carlton. Michael and I met at a writing workshop here in Nashville. And we dive pretty deep into his family history. He was raised in a military family with a father who suffers from alcoholism and PTSD. And one of the most interesting things about this episode is that at multiple points in time, he has experiences that were difficult or didn't go well and steps away from those experiences and those people for different reasons and then comes back around later. And after having taken more responsibility for himself and his role in the in those things, addresses and reconnects with those people. And they all go different ways. And what I love about this so much is that it takes a lot to be able to do that, to self-acknowledge, to take accountability and responsibility for the things that you have done or not done. And then to re-enter something voluntarily and readdress it can be really difficult, especially when you have to detach from the outcome of how that might go or how the other person might receive it or respond. So I hope you enjoyed the episode. And here's Michael. Yes, it is official. All right, Michael, I'm so happy you're here. Thank you for joining me today. This is unscripted. So I'm just gonna dive into what I'm curious about from previous conversations. You are not from here.

Michael 2:23

I'm not.

Netanya 2:24

Where are you from?

Michael 2:25

I moved to Nashville from Janesville, Wisconsin.

Netanya 2:28

Oh, I know where that is. I love that I know where that is. Yeah. It's not that far from where I'm from.

Michael 2:34

And where are you where are you from?

Netanya 2:36

Northwest suburbs. So do you know where Schaumburg is?

Michael 2:39

Oh, that's right. You're from the Chicago city.

Netanya 2:41

Yeah.

Michael 2:42

Yeah, of course I know where Schaumburg is. Absolutely.

Netanya 2:44

I usually that's usually nobody ever knows where I'm actually from, but that's kind of the closest big town that people have heard of.

Growing Up in Alaska: A Military Childhood

Michael 2:52

Right, because I imagine you from Colorado, because that's where you were at before you came here. And you were at Color you were in Colorado for some time, right? Five years. I I I really was gonna say five years, but I'm like, don't that you're a little too confident. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Netanya 3:08

Um and have you lived anywhere else other than those two places?

Michael 3:13

Yeah, I've lived in ten other states. So I yeah, I grew up in a military family. I grew up in a large family. Uh I was born in Fort Benning, Georgia, and then we moved all over, and I basically I was raised in Alaska. So from second grade till the summer before my freshman year in high school, I lived in two different places in Alaska. So that's kind of where I was raised, and then we ended up in Wisconsin.

Netanya 3:37

I have so many questions already.

Michael 3:39

Yeah.

Netanya 3:41

What was that like living in Alaska for most of your life? I don't know anyone that lives there permanently. I've known people that have traveled there.

Michael 3:49

I know it, yeah. Great, great question. I would be asking the same thing if I were you because it is a unique place to live, and there's not a lot of transference from like I don't meet a lot of people down here from Alaska, basically. So um I mean to be transparent, I've kind of mentioned my childhood was pretty challenging for many reasons, primarily just because of my father and my relationship with him. I was the only boy, I had five sisters, so I went through a lot of things with him. So it was at once magical in Alaska when I had free time and when I was with friends or I was outside of that realm. It was amazing, it was beautiful. And I think for a kid too, it was really kind of perfectly adventurous because when you're a kid, you don't care about stuff like how cold it gets, like how dark it gets. I wasn't the one responsible for making sure the vehicle didn't break down in negative 50-degree weather. You know what I mean? So I just got to hang out. Um, but no, it's truly, it's unlike anywhere I've lived. It's truly uh very picturesque, and the people there were really sweet. And growing up in a military on a military base, you're just around a lot of people who know what it's like to be the new person.

Netanya 5:09

So yeah.

Michael 5:11

Kind of kids at those schools are kind of really good at being kind. So I had That's really good. I felt very fortunate.

Netanya 5:19

What about, if you don't mind me asking, what about your relationship with your father was so difficult? I asked because I have a have a similar experience.

Michael 5:28

Yeah.

Netanya 5:29

I mean, similar in that it was difficult. I don't know what the actual experience was, but what was that like for you?

06:03 The Struggles of Father-Son Relationships

Michael 5:34

No, for sure. Well, so he was in active alcoholism, and he was in, you know, he was in the Rangers, and so he was special operations, and he had been in a lot of combat. And so he had a lot of PTSD from combat, untreated for sure, mistreated really with the alcohol, of course. And so he was, and I don't mind airing his business out really because uh I went through enough, so that's on him, that's his shit. So if he didn't want this on a podcast, he should have made different decisions. But um no, with respect to him, without getting too much into the weeds, I it was a product of one of those strange situations where the father vicariously wants to live through the sun. And so my father was very obsessed with wrestling as a sport, and he wanted me to be a wrestler, and he wanted me to be the greatest wrestler ever. And so what started as something I thought was vaguely fun in first grade by second grade turned into a serious thing, and he started training me, and I started cutting weight, and it this is a very common storyline, specifically in that sport at that time. You saw a lot of fathers behaving this way with their sons. It is really strange how like common it was. But, anyways, by second and third grade, basically it just turned into he trained, he started training me a lot. He started my life became kind of under his control. Um and my days just got progressively harder. And by the time I was in fourth grade, uh my time was pretty much purely his. I trained all the time. I wasn't really able to hang out with friends, um, and I was just in a lot of pain all the time. So I ended up winning a national championship, uh seventh grade, eighth grade. Like going into high school, I was gonna be the number one ranked in the country, but I hated it. And so it was just very basically I lived my life in sacrifice for my father, my body and my mind, and it took a toll on me greatly, you know.

Netanya 7:36

So Yeah, I can imagine. I'm just still thinking about that. That's not so first of all, I want to go back for a second. I appreciate that what you said about about wanting to, you know, to be respectful, but also like you're gonna talk about things that were true for you, even if you know, he may not want you to talk about them. But why I why I'm saying that is because I for a very long time, mine was more in terms of my marriage, but I would go to therapy or talk to friends or do things and I was struggling a lot and I wouldn't tell the whole truth because I was trying to be what I thought was respectful for like not airing someone else's laundry, so to speak. But I was also not getting help because I wasn't fully telling the truth about anything, right? So anything that involved both of us, I would half truth or just tell my part without I would try to not include anything involved him, even though we lived together, so everything was involved. But then what happened as a result of that is that I lied a lot or didn't get the help that I need because I was trying to protect his right to tell his own story. Does that make sense?

Michael 8:50

Yeah, which I feel for you because it comes from a good place, but also it ends up hurting you and it also gives you a distorted view of how to even present. It sounds like so. This was your husband.

Netanya 9:03

It was, yeah.

Michael 9:04

So you you and your husband, it was a turbulent relationship.

Netanya 9:10

Oh yes, there's a reason we're no longer married. Ex-husband.

Michael 9:15

So and your yeah, your ex-husband. So um and you took on the role of often trying to do emotional damage control both with him and then publicly, like public faith.

Netanya 9:28

Oh yeah. I was heavily codependent for sure.

Michael 9:31

Yeah, yeah. I've seen, you know, I feel for you. I've seen a lot of women have that experience, including my mother.

Netanya 9:37

Yeah, no, I that's it's more common than I thought. The first time I was in therapy and the therapist was like, Do you know what codependency is? And I was like, No. And she's like, Well, we're gonna talk about that. Um, and she gave me a um notebook or a workbook, and it had a full description of what it was and examples and whatever. And I there was somewhere in chapter three, there was like 99 to 100 things that you could think, do, say, or feel if you were codependent. And I had like 93 of them. I was like, oh, this is a this is a thing I should look at.

Michael 10:12

And when how long ago was that that you had that realization?

Netanya 10:16

Uh eight years ago, nine years ago.

Michael 10:21

Oh, I see. Okay, okay. So you've been you've been going through identifying these things for quite some time now.

Netanya 10:26

Yeah. Oh yeah.

Michael 10:28

How long have you been divorced for?

Netanya 10:31

Seven.

Michael 10:32

Gotcha. Okay.

Netanya 10:33

I think. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So we were in couples therapy trying to work things out, and that whole thing unfolded, and I learned a lot about myself at that point in time. And then yeah.

Michael 10:44

Yeah, a divorce will do that.

Netanya 10:46

Yeah. You have also been divorced, have you?

Michael 10:49

Yes, recently, yes.

Netanya 10:50

Got it. I'm gonna back up real quick and ask you about your dad again, because I'm still curious about that. Is that so that was when you were young, right? And then into high school. What happened after that? How is that relationship or where did that go from there? Like at what point in time did you stop wrestling and how did that go?

Family Dynamics Post-Divorce

Michael 11:10

So, yeah. Um great question. So my mother, bless her, my mother is an angel. She definitely, you know, they had six children together. And so there's obviously a lot that goes into if she wanted to leave him, that was going to present a lot of challenges for a lot of people. But basically, the situation got so bad that she asked him to leave. Like, you need to leave the home. So he did, which was, I jokingly say, but it was so true, like the best day of my life. I'll never forget. Because I was so used to, I mean, waking up and it was just a it was a hard life. And so when I woke up and went upstairs, and my mother was like, Your father's gone, he's never coming back. I was like, What? And uh we got to stay home that day from school, and she just let us play video games, and it was the greatest. Anyways, but what transpired after that, so I quit wrestling pretty much right away. Uh soccer was my passion sport, I was very talented at that too. But um uh what happened is my folks got divorced. I saw him minimally, and then he went to war for the invasion of Iraq. He went a little bit before like the main invasion because he went into Afghanistan, but basically he went to war. I didn't see him for some years. I went to high school, I had a lot of issues. Yeah, my my life, I went from being a very successful athlete and all these things and having so much promise to just like things fell apart pretty quickly for me. And before I knew it, I was in active addiction in high school, terrible student. I'm not doing anything outside of school other than skateboarding when I'm not strung out on drugs. And um basically he came back from war. I saw him once, it was bad. We had a really bad confrontation, he went back to Florida where he lived. I didn't see him for some time, and when I was 21 years old, he basically heard I was a heroin addict and things were falling apart, and he had recently gotten sober. So there's this strange time in my life where my father then asked me to come live with him. And judging by all the experiences I had, it was it just kind of can tell you how bad of a spot I was in because I didn't living in Janesville, Wisconsin, by that time I was 21 or 22, and I had been using heroin for a number of years and everything else I could get my hands on, and I just couldn't, you know, I had tried to start getting clean by probably the age of 19 or 20, and I just could I just tried everything. Um, I didn't know about rehab, I didn't know about 12-step meetings. I was just trying to like do shit like, all right, I'm just gonna use this much today and then a little less tomorrow, you know. Yeah, I'll try and wean myself off, then I'll try and go kill turkey, then I'll try and do this. I tried everything, couldn't do it. So when he said that, I was like, man, I need to get out of here. This place is killing me. So I moved in with him. Um I lived there for a number of years. He helped me um kind of get a second life going, but it was also under the pretense like we didn't talk about anything that happened. And what I didn't realize is I kind of fell right back into the role of just doing whatever he said. Yeah. So which sucks because then like later on in life when our relationship took a turn, he almost was like, I thought we were good. And it's like, no. But uh so basically I was in Florida, he was helping me go to school and everything, but we were both unhealthy in the sense that we didn't address anything. He wasn't really working a program, he was sober at the time, but you know, he wasn't making those changes. I had this undiagnostic addiction, I started using again and went from there. So then I'm in active addiction in Florida living with my father. So the short of the long is uh our relationship hasn't been great. I tried to repair it twice since I've been clean, both times didn't go super well. And so we've only seen each other twice in the last uh 12 years.

Netanya 15:08

This is fascinating. Is he still sober?

Michael 15:12

No, he's not anymore.

Netanya 15:13

He's not. So was he when you lived with him and you went back out, was he still sober then?

Michael 15:18

Yes, he was. Yes, he was okay.

Netanya 15:20

So at what point did you not live with him anymore after that?

Michael 15:24

Um I got kicked out. I ended up getting kicked out um because I was a mess. And then I was living on someone's couch. Um, and then that that was it. Um and that was 2011 and 2012. So and then I didn't see him again until like uh 2017 or something. So yeah. But yeah, and so then I uh Florida was probably the worst, most most dangerous and kind of horrifying parts of my active addiction. But um it went on for a couple more years. And then I got clean in 2015 and yeah, so I'm coming up, you know, on that time.

Netanya 16:06

So Yeah. So at at at what point did that I guess what I want to know is at this point how do you feel about the way that that went for you, right? I think personally looking back on stuff and talking to other people, sometimes there's some people have forgiven a lot of it and moved on, some people have a lot of resentment about it, some people are in between, some people have other people that have filled father figure roles for them. I'm just curious where you how you feel about that sort of in the past and where you're at today with it.

Finding Acceptance and Healing, Even if Not Forgiveness

Michael 16:38

Yeah, thanks for asking. I would say I'm in a pretty good place with it. I you know, 12 step and working the steps helped me um my part as best as I could. So I had to do the thing where I had to call and make amends to him without ever having gotten an apology from him for all, you know. So I suffered for many years as a child. And you know, without going into specific examples, you know, I could share a few things with you and you you know, maybe like, oh yeah, that's not good, you know. It w that was like every day for for many years. So you suffer through something for so long and then you have this person, you know, your abuser, who denies or doesn't acknowledge anything that happened, and then you have to be the one to turn around and then apologize to this person about the mistakes you made as an adult. However, it was very good for me to do that because it forced me. I don't know if I ever forgave him for what happened, but I accepted it. You know? I think it could be a little dangerous to have like a child. I don't know about that. As an adult, I forgive like the adult him. And maybe I might forgive. I don't think I've reached that honestly. Yeah, I think I still have anger and stuff I'm working towards to like what happened when I was younger. However, as an adult, I forgave him. I was okay enough with him to make that phone call. I made that phone call, and so I took care of my stuff. And then we had a very surface relationship where we would talk maybe once a year, twice a year for five minutes. And I was just like, you know what? Once I started going to therapy, uh basically I was like, I'm gonna give him an opportunity to acknowledge what happened. So basically, I grew enough as a person, I guess, to answer your question that I was able to identify my own needs um and be like, hey, you know, if I'm gonna be in a relationship with you, I want it to be a real relationship. Because I love you and I I want us if we're gonna be in each other's lives, I want it to be real. But for it to be real, we have to talk about what happened. And you will need to apologize to me. That's all there is to it, and you're not gonna emotionally manipulate your way out of it because if you're gonna try and do that, I'm gone. And so that's essentially what I did. Didn't go super well. I learned a lot from that. I unfortunately had higher expectations, and there's also this whole thing where he doesn't talk to any of my sisters, and I have a really hard time. My sisters don't have a father in their life, and that pissed me off. So I was like, I'm gonna. I thought I could emotionally manipulate him basically into seeing, like, hey, this is why you need to be a better father. Yeah, like you can be however you want with me, but you need to step up with so it was it was, you know, so it didn't go super well. Uh we had another meeting, and so where it sits is like he has his beliefs and viewpoints, and I have mine, and it's just sad, and it's just not healthy for me to be around him. So, where am I at with it now? It makes me sad, it's hard, but I'm also at peace with what I've tried to do.

Netanya 20:14

I like that a lot, especially when you said that about I think those lines get blurred a lot, acceptance and forgiveness. I also think sometimes people tout forgiveness a lot, like, oh, you should forgive everything. And it's like, well, some of this is really traumatic, right? It's not you don't just see, you know, and that's another long tangent on things, but I don't always think that's the right thing. But I think acceptance is a really beautiful place to land because it's it helps you to keep going and to heal.

Michael 20:41

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So yeah.

Netanya 20:45

What was your so while all of this was happening, what was what were your sisters doing? What was the rest of your family doing? Kind of generally.

Michael 20:53

Oh, yeah, yeah. Um so the general arc of my family is kind of is pretty special. These last couple years have been tough for our family, but prior to that, basically the divorce, you know, everyone had everyone was pretty messed up after the divorce, you know, all of us kids and my mother.

Netanya 21:11

Yeah.

Michael 21:12

And so we all had our periods of kind of falling apart in our own ways, you know, and it was really rough. I went into addiction. My one sister attempted suicide twice. Thankfully, someone found her, and it was just crazy story after crazy story. My mother, God bless her, she's just had one of the hardest lives of people I've known. All this stuff. We all get spread out. And then my mother had this sister who lived in Janesville, Wisconsin.

Netanya 21:39

And so did you know her, that sister?

Michael 21:43

Yeah, my aunt. I I vaguely knew her. So basically, my mother moves, she's taking care of four children on her own. This woman's just traumatized, working two jobs, we don't have money. My mother, her four children, then my one. Sister was already living with my aunt. We all move into my aunt's basement in Janesville, Wisconsin. So there's like six or seven of us living in this basement. And that started that Janesville, Wisconsin chapter. And then just fast forward, little by little, all of us did our healing. We did our growing. You know, my sisters, they got jobs, they made careers for themselves in Janesville. Um, I ended up getting clean, coming back home to Janesville. And so there was a stretch in the first five, six years of my clean time where we were always doing stuff together, like my whole family. Like, and it's really beautiful. And so we got really close and we just love each other very much. So my sisters, you know, to answer your question, a number of them work at this same corporation out of Janesville and they've worked up, you know, they live the corporate life and they do well for themselves. And a lot of my sisters have children and you're married and live in homes. And my mother lives in her little duplex in Janesville, and she's a happy woman. So yeah, so it it it turned out pretty well.

Netanya 23:03

Yeah, I would say so. And it's I love that you all, you know, it's hard when we go through hard things together and all have different struggles, but to be able to come to find your way back to each other, each in your own way, is a really beautiful gift.

Michael 23:18

Yeah, yeah. It's it's very, it's it's very, I don't know. I never, you know, kind of like my recovery, like my own family, I think we're constantly reliving the pleasant shock of that we actually get to have a family and be close with each other. Because I don't think we expected that to happen. So I think we all are really happy that we just get to be brothers and sisters and sons and daughters and stuff.

Netanya 23:43

That's a really beautiful way to say that. It also sort of brings you back to the little things that are really big things. And that sometimes, not to be very cliche, but that sometimes when you've had a lot of dark, the light is so much brighter because you know what had, you know, especially if you didn't have that hope expectation for yourself or your family to get that feels like a really big win.

Michael 24:07

I mean, sure, yeah. That's very well put. And that's kind of something in writing that I didn't realize this really until just now. But I think it emotionally pulls me in ways like, for example, maybe having a moment at one of my sisters' homes and having all my family in close proximity. I am very fascinated, and I mean, who wouldn't be, but I guess I am fascinated in how much history is in that room at that time and how how powerful context is. Like with anyone, you meet people and you just see them, but had you known what they went through and what it took to get there, that would be a totally different story. So in writing, it's always fascinating to see. You know, how can you build a history for a character or how can you contextualize a scene so when that moment happens, the reader's situated and is like, oh my gosh, like this is such a big deal for them because this happened, you know, that totally comes from just what's happened with my family for sure.

Netanya 25:12

That's awesome. That was a great way to put that. Um, and for those of you listening, Michael and I know each other from a writing workshop for writing and recovery, which is a really great program that the porch offers here in Nashville that um has just been really great. And I do want to talk about that more at some point, but I want to I have a question from our earlier conversation. Oh, yeah.

Michael 25:33

Can you are you will you not forget it? Can I ask a question or are you gonna forget yours?

Netanya 25:38

You can ask a question.

Michael 25:39

Do you have siblings? I do. How many? And are you close with them? And you don't have to answer if you don't want.

Netanya 25:46

Thank you for the permission. Um, I have one biological sibling who is a sister. She's older than I am, and she is quite a bit older than me. So she's about roughly 13 years older than me. We have the same parents. And I have two stepbrothers. So when I was very when I was when I was born, my parents were in the middle of a divorce. I was okay. I was very much an accident.

Michael 26:10

Born into a divorce. Wow.

Netanya 26:11

So we just came out, came out kicking over here. And then when I was maybe two or three, my dad got remarried, um, and my stepmom had two sons. And so I had I grew up with most from most of it from when I was three-ish till about sixteen. And then they got divorced.

Michael 26:33

Oh, bless them. Okay.

Netanya 26:35

Yeah. Why do you what's your quiet? Why did you want to know?

Michael 26:38

I mean if we're being honest.

Netanya 26:40

Yeah. We're being honest.

Michael 26:42

I mean, there's just thing there's just things that I appreciate about your, you know, character. You're very, and it doesn't surprise me that you're doing this podcast format is like you're very emotionally attentive to people that are in the room. You know. Um you're very considerate socially of what's going on. You know, you're asking me these great questions. It's been my experience that me and my sisters have gotten some of those skills because of the experiences that we've had. And I know you and I share other things in common, but I was just uh yeah, just curious if you have siblings too, and a little bit about your family history. So yeah.

Netanya 27:20

Yeah. Any other questions while we're at it? And thank you for saying that.

Michael 27:24

I'll leave it at that. Yeah. It's hard for me to have a more of a one-side. I struggle with this in therapy, and I've had to lean into it with my therapist because I would do that thing where I'm like, her name's Amy, and I would need her to tell me how she's doing.

Netanya 27:39

Uh-huh.

Michael 27:39

And I would need to know she's okay before I started.

Netanya 27:42

Yeah.

Michael 27:43

Because I'm like, what kind of asshole just comes in here and just talks for you know what I mean? Like, we already have an epidemic of men controlling rooms. And now I'm supposed to just tell this woman all about me for an hour without, you know, and so I'm trying to be more comfortable in this format, but you're asking me all these great questions, and now I want to ask you questions, but I'm gonna I'm gonna surrender. I'm gonna go back to your format. You can ask me more questions.

Netanya 28:09

Well, what I love about this is that it really is a conversation.

Michael 28:12

Yeah.

Netanya 28:13

So ask me questions, you know? It's just the point is to record the truth about things, and that includes me as well, right? And people do ask me stuff sometimes. I'm happy to answer. And I always tell people, if you don't want to answer something that I ask you, just tell me no. I I will say, like, hey, I'm I'm not up for that today, you know? But please, you're free to ask the rest of this conversation.

Michael 28:35

Okay.

Netanya 28:36

Um I'm curious, you said you were in Janesville and then you left to go into recovery. Did you go to another state?

Michael 28:44

Oh, sorry. So when I moved in with my so I left Janesville to move in with my father who was living in Tampa, Florida. Uh was that the time or no, I'm sorry.

Netanya 28:56

I mean when you went to rehab or when you got clean.

Michael 28:59

Oh, oh, yeah, yeah.

Netanya 29:00

Did you get clean in another place? No, I think, unless I'm a little bit more than a good idea. Great question.

Michael 29:04

No, great question. So I was in Tampa, Florida for four years. Um, and I had gone to rehab a few times while I was in Tampa, and then I ended up in Evansville, Indiana. Um, a bunch of stuff happened there within less than a year, and I was about to check into a men's shelter, and basically my mother drove from Janesville, Wisconsin to get me and what possessions I had left and drive me back home to Janesville. And then my sister was living in a nearby city, and she let me move in with her and her husband, which at the time was a pity pretty big risk because yeah, my I did not have a good track record at all. So, but that's where I started my recovery and I stayed there. So from that was in 2013, it took me a few years to get the clean time I have now. Um, so I started my recovery in Janesville in 2013 and um finally got the clean time that I have now in November 2015, and then I didn't move from Janesville until I moved to Nashville in 2022.

Netanya 30:06

Okay. Very cool. I love talking about this, especially with with time number of attempts at things because it's just a very real part of the process. Um but I'm curious about something that this is gonna seem random, but I was thinking about it yesterday and I haven't talked to anybody about this really. Was it about the concept of time in recovery? And so I realized I don't love the concept of time because it doesn't tell me anything I want to know.

Michael 30:33

Yeah.

Netanya 30:34

Really, you know, but it tells me how much time since you last picked up, but it doesn't tell me how much you're working on yourself, how much you've grown, how much you've healed, how much you've progressed, right, throughout that.

Michael 30:45

Sure.

Clean Time vs. Recovery + Relapses

Netanya 30:45

And so, um, and I have been the I have been like attacked with that question. Like how much time do you have? And I was in a meeting, I was chairing a meeting, and this guy walked in who I didn't know and sort of attacked me with that, and I could feel that it was a challenge, right? It wasn't it wasn't a general inquiry. It was like he wanted me to, he wanted to tell me how much time he had so that or he wanted to ask me so that I would ask him. Yeah. Um, and so I don't love that question. But I was with someone not that long ago who I was getting coffee with, and he was saying something about his time, and he said, Well, this time I have about six months. And I said, I found myself ask, well, how long do you have? And I sort of cringed afterwards, but then I realized I I kind of went into like, what's the bigger question? What do I really want to know? Because I don't care about how much how much time you have clean. What I really wanted to know is how long have you been in recovery? How long have you been in this world of this is language that you understand? So I know how to talk to you, right? If you're brand new at this, there's some stuff you might not know. Versus if you've been around a while, even if you don't have a lot of clean time, I can just kind of speak differently.

Michael 31:58

No, totally. It's funny you said that too, because that was one of the I I remember I asked you, and I could tell you were a little unsettled by it, and I felt bad.

Netanya 32:04

I think it was right after that happened.

Michael 32:07

Yeah, I thought I felt bad, but I also that wasn't the first time I I've seen someone get unsettled by that question, and I totally understand where you're coming from. Also, to be on the receiving end of that, too, like, and I've told a friend of mine in recovery, like, I don't like asking people that question and then having them unsettled, and then like I happen to have more time. It's just a bad, weird situation. But it's funny because as you're talking about it, yeah, there's all sorts of posturing and stuff involved. I think I didn't realize this until you were talking about it that Nashville and being in a city in recovery is much different. I think there's a lot more posturing with clean time and using that as like this social currency because in where I'm from in Janesville, one of the one of the big impetuses I think behind asking that question is there's not a there's not many people with much time where I'm from. And what we get a lot more is newcomers who like kind of who like bullshit a lot about it. So they'll they'll just be like, oh, like one one line I've heard what and it's been my experience is a lot of people who say this, there's some sort of reservation they have, or they're not totally committed to their recovery. And it's almost that early, that addict arrogance in early recovery when you want to be different or want to know some shit. And so I'll be like, hey, how long do you have? And they're like, Oh, I'm not really counting, I just have just for today. And I'm like, Oh, is that because you're embarrassed because you have six days clean? Or like, like, where are you at? You know, and so I think one of the reasons we ask that question is because we I want people to be proud of how much time they have, but we like to just we just like to know because what happens is, you know, to me, and I see where you're you have a totally valid point that I want to speak on in just a second that I think is beautiful, and I'm glad you're passionate about that very thing. It's hard sometimes to get newcomers to be proud of Queen Town. So we are kind of a little more forthright of like, hey, no, you've been clean 11 days, that's a big deal. Yeah. But you need to have a clean date. And then the the the add-on to that is working with so many newcomers who lie about their clean date. But to go back to what you were saying, that's been my experience for sure. And clean time can work against people so much, and I don't think we do a great job in recovery. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a hard it's a hard thing to honor clean time in a way that doesn't become divisive sometimes to people who just you know are your equals and want to feel equal, but then clean time is just a part of your story. And so that's it's always an ongoing topic. So I think that's yeah, you know, as I say, clean time does an equal recovery.

Netanya 35:05

No, and I have seen people I mean, I've seen people relapse with a number of years and have a really hard time because they were so attached to the number that that was part of their foundation was that number. And so with the number being gone, it it they built an identity around it, and so it a lot more got shaken than just that. Um and then just relapse in general, right? It is I've seen people have a lot of shame around it or come back in and say, I, you know, I look what I gave up or look what I lost, and I get a little on a baby soapbox about like you still have all that knowledge.

Michael 35:51

Yeah.

Netanya 35:52

Right? You you're not the same as the first time you walked in the store.

Michael 35:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause they want to feel like, yeah. And and the only person they're hurting is themselves, you know. And that's what's sad about the shame in the relapsing is so heavy. I just talked to someone at a meeting the other day who just came back after a few years. Um, and they have 50-something days now, but they were just like doing well. They're they're super recommitted and everything, but that was their first time being out there after being exposed to recovery. And that is just different, at least in my experience, because before when I was using, I had not felt any sort of hope for change or anything like that. And so then then when you actually start changing or having some hope or whatever, and then you're back in that stuff again, it's just like it's like doubly wretched. So yeah.

Netanya 36:51

Well, and I would imagine it's something like you can't unsee what you've seen.

Michael 36:58

Entirely. And you have this conscience that you did not have before.

Netanya 37:02

Yeah. Um I have relapse has not been a part of my story. And even saying that makes me cringe because it doesn't mean I'm better than anyone else. And in fact, there have been many times I've felt shame about that.

Michael 37:15

You showed it. I'll just soapbox for one second. I love, I love when I hear that statement. My sponsor has the same story. I don't ever want to hear anyone have to go through relapse. So I, as someone who's been through plenty of them, I'm it makes my heart well, like sincerely, when I hear someone say it. So I'm glad you haven't gone through relapse.

Writing in Healing + Becoming a Writer and Teacher

Netanya 37:39

Well, and I when people ask me about that, really listen when people share their stories about relapse, how they got their way, you know, whatever. And I just believe them. So often the same people come back and say the same thing, which is I went right back to where I came from. It didn't matter how many years I had, I went right back and it was as equally as hard. And now I have to dig out of it again. And and similar to what I said before, like I know a lot more now. So it's not even fun.

Michael 38:08

Well, and it's very clear that you listen because like my sponsor and other people who haven't gone through relapse, if they're not listening and if they're not believing these people, then they do go back out. So it's it's obvious that you listen to them. So that's really cool that you respect it that much.

Netanya 38:25

Well, and I I don't think I'm any different. I I'm an addict. I don't think that how many more years of that is gonna make it. I see a lot of people get stuck on the um, I thought I could have just one.

Michael 38:38

Oh my god.

Netanya 38:38

And I just cannot ever get close to that because I it doesn't matter if I could or couldn't or think I could, or maybe I could, or I've learned so much, not whatever you story you want to tell yourself. Like I am a generally a pro-risk human. I will take risks that are calculated or smart or whatever in the way that I function. That is not a risk that I am willing to take.

Michael 39:01

That's amazing, Natanya. Good. I love hearing that, you know, because it's just very important.

Netanya 39:10

I just think I'll end up exactly where they tell me that I will because they did already, you know?

Michael 39:15

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, it's it's horrible.

Netanya 39:19

So I'm curious about where you where you turned, or maybe you always had this and we just didn't talk about this. Where did you turn towards writing? Both just because it's such a so I write and we talked about this somewhat. I write very inspirationally, and it's about emotion and feeling. And one of the things I love about this class and being in there and watching you teach and all the different things that we've talked about is it's such a different way for me to think, right? Like scene writing and telling a story from that space is such a different way to come about that. And what you said earlier when you were talking about, and I could I could almost see it, like the scene in that home and the stories of each person. Like that's a book somewhere in there if you haven't written that already. Um, and I would be so curious to read it. But I'm what I'm wanting to know is how did you, at what point did that become a thing for you? Did you always write, or where did that become the thing that you now do for a living?

Michael 40:14

Yeah. Uh well, I like telling the following story. Um, but I'll say on the mode of writing you're used to and stuff, I'm excited because this weekend I have this little activity that I think plays to everyone well, and I'm I'm I'm excited for it. So um uh and I'm I get I don't know, sometimes I get emotional talking about this stuff so uh because it just means the world to me. But I like telling this story because how I got into writing and having the childhood I have. If I look back, there were always there's always an interest in books, you know. So I think I just had it as a kid, but it was never, you know, that soil wasn't fed, it wasn't watered, you know, in any sort of way. Um, and then I just remember feeling really heartbroken, but I was very angry in high school that I skipped a lot of school. I had a lot of hurt and anger, and I did not adjust well at all. And I didn't, I wasn't proud of being a bad high school student, but I had a huge hip chip on my shoulder, and also at the time teachers were not all straight up, my high school administration did a shitty job dealing with problem kids. They had no training, no language for it, like you know, the slightest condescension or something from my end, and they just came back at me, you know? And it's like I'm a 16, 17-year-old kid who's clearly struggling, and you're gonna shame me. So, anyways, all this to say, I think I really wanted to be in the classroom. I didn't have what it took, and I it always broke my heart. And so, because I still loved reading, and so I read outside of high school, but when I went to Florida and I got into a community college, I was 21 years old, and it was just like it meant the world to me. I used to have dreams when I was in active addiction that I was back in school, and and they were sad dreams because I would not be getting good grades or not turning my work in on time, and I'd be like, just just give me a chance, kind of thing. So then now I'm in Florida and I'm at this community college and I'm in school and I'm like, oh my god, I am in school, this is amazing. I was so excited. And I took this literature class with this guy, Professor Jeff Rubenstein, and it was probably the first day or second day. Um, it was just his zest for literature and how he talked about it and who he was, and he was reading Faulkner in class, and then he was talking about it, and it a light bulb went off in my head, and I just thought this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. This seems to be the most important thing to me is sharing this, and so that I wasn't conscious of that, but that's looking back now. So, anyways, so then I started taking all these classes and I'm reading all these books, but then I plunged back into active addiction. So as I'm in an active addiction, um I borrowed a book from Jeff and I also was in the National Guard, but there's just a lot of stuff going on, and I'm just messing up left and right, and I had become friends with Jeff and I tried to take advantage of my friendship with him by asking him for an extension on a paper. And he sent me this response and he said no and give me my fucking book back. And it devastated me.

Netanya 43:51

Wow.

Michael 43:51

But I felt so like he basically was just like, I can't believe you would, you know, try and leverage our friendship, you know. It devastated me. So, anyways, I'm 22 when this happens. And then I had to go to class after that.

Netanya 44:08

Yeah, so you still have to see him.

Michael 44:10

So I'm in his class. I'm dope sick. Then I start skipping his class, literally driving to a dope house, Natanya. And while class is going on, I'm back in this dope house, and I'm like, How did this happen again? And I was so heartbroken. So fast forward to eight years later, I'm in Wisconsin, I'm working the steps, I've been clean for a couple years, it's time for my ninth step, it's time to call people and make amends. And I was terrified of calling Jeff. And I just felt so because before I made this phone call, I never thought I would be in school ever again. So it was also hard to bring myself to call him to make amends to this part of my life that would never be. But I was like, well, I have to call, make my amends. So I called. And he had never known what happened to me. And I explained to him that I was in active addiction at the time, and he told me he was so sorry. He said, I figured something was going on. You were out of it, you were failing my class. And um he was so sweet. And I got off the phone and I remember the parking lot I was in. I had just dropped a sponsee off at his apartment. And all of a sudden, I just thought, I want to go back to school. I want to go back to a classroom. And at the time it was insane. I was about to get married. Like, the fuck? I'm gonna go to school when I'm 30. What are you doing? And it just took over. I just had to go back to a classroom. And so it started with wanting to go to school. Short along, is I meet another mentor who further inspired me. And um, I just decided to go for it. And um, I learned about these things called MFAs, and they would pay me. And what is a school?

Netanya 46:00

What is what is an MFA?

Michael 46:01

A master's in fine arts.

Netanya 46:03

Thank you.

Michael 46:04

Yeah. Um, so I love how you ask for clay. I like I do really love that about you because I'm the same way, so I love that about you. Um, so this mentor of mine, I'm learning about him. You know, as addicts, we're just trying to like, oh, like now that I want this, I need to learn how to do it. And so I learned that, you know, he got this MFA, and and and basically at the time I learned that if you could write a short story well enough, you could get admission into a master's in fine arts program, and a lot of the top MFA schools would pay your tuition, give you healthcare, and also pay you a monthly stipend. So then it would be like a job. So I was like, oh, I have this window now, this year window to figure out how to write, and if I can write a good enough story, I can go to the next level, and so that's what I did.

Netanya 46:59

And so that was here.

Michael 47:01

That's how I got to Nashville, yeah. So I got into Vanderbilt's MFA.

Netanya 47:05

And now you teach.

Michael 47:08

And yeah, now I teach, and now, yeah, now it's I'm gonna try and go to the the next level, and that would be eventually getting a university teaching job, and so there's all sorts of things I have to do to get there.

Netanya 47:22

Yeah. Um that was a really beautiful story, and you can tell how much you care about that.

Michael 47:28

Thank you.

Netanya 47:29

But I love that now in in two different parts of your life, one was your family and two was really your career, you've had very rough beginnings and somehow found your way back to a much better ending.

Michael 47:43

Yeah.

Netanya 47:44

You know, and not to that it's the end, it's the beginning, really. But just you know what I'm saying, but to be able to come around and to say, we're not done here. And I have say in how the rest of my life goes, and I'm gonna I'm gonna step into that.

Michael 48:00

Yeah. No, I appreciate that. Yeah, I really do care, you know, and I appreciate you recognizing that, Natanya, because yeah, I mean, by the time I got back into the classroom when I was 30, I mean, the reality was I 15 years before that, I was in high school classrooms messing up, brokenhearted. Eight years, seven years later, I was in a community college classroom messing up, brokenhearted. And so the opportunity to be there yet again was so charged um that it just meant the meant the world to me, and I and and also I was just doing it because that's um all I knew what to do is like this blind faith. But along the way I started like believing in the arts, and then that was different. When I actually like saw what it did, like in my life, right? It made me kind of evangelical, not kind of, it made me evangelical like about the arts. It made me actually have a belief in the power of the arts, and so that was cool because I think I thought it was more of a superficial environment. Um and then I really saw like, oh no, like you can really help people with this.

Netanya 49:15

So it's whether you know it or not, it's a really beautiful story of just for anyone that thinks it's too late for something in your life, that it's never too late to begin again.

Michael 49:29

Right, right. And I mean, I mean, there's costs. It's hard sometimes. You know, I'm 38 now and working at Barcelona. I serve people all the time who are, you know, almost half my age who have homes and these high-paying jobs and all this stuff, and it's very easy for me to compare sometimes, but I did choose the path that I'm on, and it's not the most financially viable, but it's spiritually fulfilling. Um and that is something I'm very you know, and we all have our there's just times where I'm like, why am I doing this? But it's like this is all I care about. I imagine it's an architect. I would like to think there's some architects out there, that's their thing. You're not gonna tell them not to be an architect, like this, you know, I want to teach, but I wish I I wish I could be rich doing it, but you know, that's okay.

Finding Fulfillment in the Arts

Netanya 50:22

Well, and the beautiful thing is, I'll challenge that for a moment here, is that I was you not that long ago. Yeah. Right? I my career has changed many times. I don't need to explain all that at this point, but I'm happy to later. Um, but there came a point when I worked for myself for a while, and I moved to Colorado, I got sober. I worked for a nonprofit in recovery for a couple years, and I was so broke. Um and then I left, and I left because of a lot of things, but I just I needed a minute, and I was like, I care so much about mental health, recovery, all of this world. And yet this job isn't it. I can't do this job forever. It's not sustainable. I was burning out. And so I took a step back. And when I did that, I leaned on the thing that I have had for many years, which is survey.

Michael 51:13

Oh yeah.

Netanya 51:14

And I worked in in Steamboat in, you know, it's a tourist town. So I worked in restaurants. Um, and I got real good at it, and I got all the best shifts and I made good money, right? And so in doing that, um, it gave me a minute to step away and sort of reconsider what I want to do, how I want to do that. And um, I just think, and what you're seeing me live into in this moment is I then moved to Nashville. And when I first came here, I had fully intended on just taking serving jobs because it's easy for me to transfer that skill. Right. Like I can pick up a serving job in any city when you've done it as long as I have. That's not a big deal. And that was my intention. And then three days before I moved, the company that I now work for, I was they hired me to be a a service, like a captain, like a lead server there. And they called me three days before I moved and said, Do you want a full-time job? Because your resume says that like we think you could do more than just serve here and they needed help, and you know where that went from there.

Michael 52:13

That's so cool.

Netanya 52:14

But it was just I trusted a lot and I kept saying yes and and where I want to go with my life. I currently work in the hospitality industry and run events and do things which is really beautiful, but it lends itself to what I want to do in the future. I don't want to work in hospitality forever. And they knew that when they hired me. I talked about what I want to do in the future.

Michael 52:33

Everyone in hospitality knows that.

Netanya 52:35

But I just what I'm saying is that like I had to find a way, I want to go build things in recovery. And I will. And but I had to kind of find my way around how can I still I will forever. I have a degree in teaching also. I don't know if we talked about that. I will forever be a teacher at my core. Like I just I couldn't stay in the public school system of America. That was not how teaching worked for me. So, how do I take like all these things, helping people run online businesses? I did that for a couple of years, working for a nonprofit, skills I learned in the customer service industry, and then how to lead groups and teach discussions and lead a classroom and lead a group of people and put all that together. And guess what? That is a magical recipe for everything that I want to do in the future.

Michael 53:20

Right.

Netanya 53:21

But it doesn't, it seems all not connected. And so I just where I was going with this for you is that I had to rethink maybe I don't work within the same system that everybody tells me that I work in. And how do I still teach people? Because I care more about teaching than I do anything.

Michael 53:37

Right.

Netanya 53:38

And I do it in the daily, like I do it at work, I do it in just side conversations. And now you're watching me as I built something that I could connect with people on.

Michael 53:48

Yeah.

Netanya 53:49

So that we could share this stuff with people who can't hear it yet. That's a different form of teaching.

Michael 53:53

Yeah. Right.

Netanya 53:54

So and and how do I keep doing the things that I'm passionate about and stay open to how this might unfold differently than I got attached to. There's not just one way to be a teacher. Right. And in the same way with writing, and there's so many things you could do with that. And I I have no idea what you might, you know, what rabbit hole you might find your way to, but I have a lot of faith that if you wanted to stay open to that, that you might be surprised.

Michael 54:21

Yeah. No, I've I I appreciate that. I yeah. Um, and that's so cool to hear more about how things culminated with you, you know. Um, and I'm happy for you and I'm interested to see what, you know, comes next for you. Because that is um it sounds like it's been a long time coming for you, and that's that's wonderful, you know.

Career Changes + the Pressure of Expectations and Self-Forgiveness

Netanya 54:47

Well, yeah, and just to say that like even though you're doing that today, there's some people that want to be a server for life, which is awesome. I I know people that that is their choice, it's their vocation. They want to do that and live in a ski town, and it affords them the opportunity to do that for a life and they love it.

Michael 55:04

Right.

Netanya 55:04

I wasn't that human. I used it as a bridge.

Michael 55:08

Right. Yeah. No, and and it's interesting because I'm fortunate right now because thankfully I only have to serve part-time because I work at this arts center on campus. I think I told said that in class. But like, yeah, my heart goes out to people who have to serve full-time. And I was getting ready to do that before I took this like fellowship I'm in right now. But it's like, you know, working serving full-time in the service industry is like a totally different beast, you know. So just doing it part-time, but yeah, I and with the path I chose, I'm in an interesting spot right now, like post-MFA, where essentially for me to get to the next level, it's either get a PhD or or sell a book. And um I'm trying to go the book route because yeah, the PhD is just a whole nother commitment, and I don't know if I'm ready for that or want to do that and all these things. And so it's it's a very interesting, like kind of uh self, self uh searching kind of time um working these two jobs, writing in between. Also, obviously post-divorce and all this stuff. And so, you know, one thing I appreciate you and other people in my life is um, you know, the the spiritual life, just the the connection to relationships and w what's important seems to be an anchor across the board. I hear that a lot when I, you know, I listen to a lot of interviews. I do appreciate that about you and hearing some of your stories. It seems like part of the impetus to this podcast and some things you're going through is you seem to be interested with at the basis connection and truth and the way you're asking me these questions. It's like, oh, what has happened to you and how are you responding to it? And what did that do to you? And which is to say you care about people. And um I've had to draw back on that because Vanderbilt um I don't mind saying uh it is one of the hardest programs. I mean, i most of the MFA programs are very hard to get into just because it's such a it's a crazy industry now. There's for most of the top schools, there's few hundred applicants for six spots or less. You know what I mean? So it's just like this dream shot, you know. Um in Vanderbilt, especially because there was like so, you know, someone who I like I studied who mentored my mentor that I wanted to study under and like so getting in. But basically, um there's a natural performative pressure that came with that as a writer and just as a person, and I think that's fine, and I think it was good in a way. It taught me a lot in a way, you know, don't get me wrong, but I say this whole rant to say that um as a as an artist and just as a person, I'm learning how to slow down today and to take the pressure off, and it's really opening things up for me.

Netanya 58:05

Well, and it's a what you said is accurate, right? It's it's a practice. Like you you have to work at that. That's not natural for most people.

Michael 58:13

Yeah. Yeah.

Netanya 58:14

And and I I don't know if I made that sound really easy, what I said before about this sort of not linear journey that I've been, but there was a lot of times when I had to lean on faith. And I I mean, whatever that means to you, I'm I'm not talking about religious connotation specifically. I'm just talking about faith that it's that it's gonna work out, that I'll figure it out, that I, if I can't figure it out, that I can ask for help. And that I've just I've seen enough and done enough to know that sometimes life surprises me. And I think if you can leave room for that, it which is really we'll go back to what we talked about in the beginning, which is surrender. Can you surrender to, you know, there's only so much you can control. You've done certain things, you've worked on certain things, and at some point you kind of have to sit back and say, like, all right, what do you got for me now? And I don't know what your relationship to higher power is like, but it's I mine has changed a lot, but just the concept of it in general of something vaguer than yourself and trusting that you're not alone and you don't have to human figure it all out right now. Um, and that you didn't you didn't know some people a couple months ago. You didn't know, you know, you and I didn't know each other not that long ago. Right. And that that you start, you kind of find your way and things open, and then you have a new from that new seat, then you have different perspective and then you have a different conversation, and then something else changes.

Michael 59:40

Yeah. No, entirely, and um uh shoot. Oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna lose it and I I can't that that was gonna really bother me because you said something that but um I uh it's gone. It's about getting it's about getting older. Okay, yeah, and I think when you said high power and spirituality and you were talking about some of those principles. Um it made me think of this guy, you know, we all hear those cliches in recovery, and one of the cliches early on is like don't be in the results business, which is pointing, of course, people in recovery to just focusing on making the effort because that's all you can control, and I think that's a very healthy practice. And it's been my experience that a lot of those cliches, just kind of just anything in life in general, the more you practice them, the more powerful they become as a concept. And I'm really having to learn how to do that in a different way today, and to really focus on that, and because there's a lot of peace in that. We're all haunted by things, and one thing I'm haunted by and it's unfortunately heavily informed by language my father used and stuff, but like I'm haunted by the concept of not making the most of my opportunity. You know? Gratitude is such a beautiful thing, however, I can pervert gratitude into being this pressure cooker of like oh, are you really grateful for what you have? What are you gonna do with it?

Netanya 1:01:14

Yeah.

Surrendering to Life's Uncertainties

Michael 1:01:16

You're so grateful. I mean, this is literally my thought. I mean, I'm just such an addict, I'm zero to ten. It's like your mom's still in that duplex up north. Like, I I want to give my mom a huge home. She doesn't want to live in a huge home, she's said that many times, but I want to give my mom the world. So it's like, yeah, I'm happy where I'm at, but I want to do everything for everyone. And if I don't, what have I really done with this opportunity? And so getting older, um, not only have I am I learning to have faith and just making the effort, but also even if I don't perform well, and even if I don't put in full effort, I'm learning to be more forgiving towards myself. I can think of days in the last month, I can think of days a few years ago where I was tired that day, I was unmotivated, I could have written, I could have gone for a run, I could have called a friend, and I watched Netflix for an hour and a half. Um and that would have irritated me more like a year ago, but now it doesn't. Like because now I'm breathing and I you know what I mean? Like it's just different, and so I don't know, I just connect with a lot with what you're saying and having these conversations. You know, sometimes I wonder about the podcasting format when people get into these really leash conversations because sometimes podcasts I listen to I'm like, is this serving them or is it serving the viewer? And it's funny because in this moment it's like, well, this is helping me. So fuck it, who cares?

Netanya 1:03:05

Well, I'm glad. And that's that's part of the goal, you know, and I I can't I can't control what the response is of a guest that I have on here, the conversation we have anymore that I can control people listening. There's gonna be people, anything I do, there's gonna be people that support me and love me and champion me, which is amazing. There's gonna be people that are indifferent, that don't really care and can take or leave it, and there's gonna be people that don't like me, that don't understand me, or that straight up want to take me out because of things that probably have nothing to do with me. And that that what I just said will always be true.

Michael 1:03:43

Yeah.

Netanya 1:03:43

No matter which direction I go in. So you might as well keep doing the things and it's living with that. Right. But I do love it's always a gift when people get something out of this because I get something out of this. If this was just a side hustle for me and I didn't care immensely, I wouldn't do it. I'm built that way. I can't do anything that I don't care about. I genuinely love doing this. And I get so much out of it, whether it's the gift of listening to other people's stories or things that I learn or reminders that I need to hear. And so whenever anyone can get anything else out of it, that's a huge win for me.

Michael 1:04:22

What's your favorite thing you get? And how many guests have you had on before me? Because you just started this, right?

Netanya 1:04:28

I did. Mm-hmm. So I've recorded several episodes that are not live yet. As of the moment of this recording, I posted episode four today.

Michael 1:04:37

Oh, I see, and you have more than that. So what's your what what's your favorite thing you're getting out of it?

Netanya 1:04:44

Uh, I think what I love the most, which is telling the truth and hearing other people tell the truth, that things are messy and hard, and that's okay. And we're all learning. And I the dichotomy of how beautiful my life is and how much I've been given and gifts and grown and love and all the things that are good and hard things and places I still struggle and where I have to practice what I preach. Right. Um, I was at work today and I was in tears. And I called, I had to call somebody else because I was like, hey, I'm I need to talk through this, you know, and so it's that we're all human, that we're all learning, that I get to learn things like I just did with you about things that I we don't talk about this in writing class, you know, and not that you wouldn't, but it's just not the platform for it. Right. So getting to connect with people, but I think my favorite thing is the hope that I have that someone will hear this and say me too and feel less alone.

Michael 1:05:41

Okay, well, right on.

Netanya 1:05:42

Yeah, that's a great Well, with that, I'm gonna end on that so to respect your time for where you're headed.

Michael 1:05:49

Yeah.

Netanya 1:05:50

Is there anyone if anyone wanted to find you or get in touch with you, is there a good place for that? Social media, email, anything that you and you don't have to, I just if if you wanted to share anything else. Happy to do that.

Michael 1:06:01

Absolutely. Um, yes, on my Instagram account, they can be my four hundred and sixtieth person or something like that. Um, which is a lot to me. It's kind of crazy. Like I I don't even you know, social media is so freaking weird. I feel like I have 17 people in my life, and I um so these people that have like millions of follow- I don't know. Social media is terrible, but if you do want to use Instagram, I am Michael underscore e underscore Carlson. Okay. Um, and if anyone wants to send me a message, that would be great.

Netanya 1:06:38

Um, and then one last thing, will you tell me a little bit about the porch and the writing program? Because I would love to just share that with anybody.

Michael 1:06:45

Yes, the porch is a locally started and operated nonprofit. It was started by two women, Susanna and Katie. Susanna Feltz and Katie McDougall. And their essential goal was just to get people to hang out and talk about literature. What it's turned into is it's a nonprofit that serves a lot of different parts of the community. So, in the context that Natanya and I know each other, it's a class called Writing for Recovery, which I teach on Sunday nights from 5:30 to 7. Um, and you can find all their different courses online at I believe it's theporchtn.com, but just Google the Porch Nashville and you can get there. But they put on a lot of events, they have a lot of classes, they do a lot of amazing work. So go to their website and check it out. And um it's truly one of those things where like knowing the you know, one of the co-founders quite personally and seeing what goes on behind the scenes, like it gives me more hope in nonprofits.

Netanya 1:07:47

Yeah.

Michael 1:07:48

Because some nonprofits are very ulterior, and theirs is just like two women who have a passion for something beautiful, and that's all there is to it. Yes.

Netanya 1:07:59

I agree with you. I am blessed to know them as well.

Michael 1:08:01

And I Yeah, you know, you know them too. Yeah, because your your events and stuff. So yeah, they're wonderful.

Netanya 1:08:12

Especially in recovery, but really anywhere. And writing is one of those things that has helped me, obviously, it's helped you, and hopefully can help more people too.

Michael 1:08:20

Yeah, heck yeah. Well, thanks for having me on. This was really you're welcome.

Netanya 1:08:24

Thank you so much for showing up and just for for sharing that with me. That was really great.

Michael 1:08:28

Yeah. All right, you have a good night.

Netanya 1:08:30

All right, take care. Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to Natania Allison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.