EP05: The Road to Acceptance and a Writer's Second Chance with Michael Carlson

This week, we sit down for a powerful conversation with Michael Carlson, who opens up about his experience growing up in a military family and the lasting impact of his father’s alcoholism and PTSD.

Michael dives deep into the challenge of finding his way back to himself, the complexities of 'clean time' versus true recovery, and how writing became his necessity and portal for healing.

We also get personal: Michael asks about my favorite part of the podcasting process, and I reveal the thing that matters most—the hope that someone will hear this and feel less alone.

For anyone carrying the weight of missed opportunities, this is your permission slip—a powerful reminder that every moment is a second chance to begin again. It’s a deep dive into finding peace, truth, and hope for anyone who feels they are running out of time.

Chapters

• 2:58 Growing Up in Alaska: A Military Childhood
• 6:03 06:03 The Struggles of Father-Son Relationships
• 14:55 Family Dynamics Post-Divorce
• 17:37 Finding Acceptance and Healing, Even if Not Forgiveness
• 30:49 Clean Time vs. Recovery + Relapses
• 37:55 Writing in Healing + Becoming a Writer and Teacher
• 51:12 Finding Fulfillment in the Arts
• 54:55 Career Changes + the Pressure of Expectations and Self-Forgiveness
• 1:02:13 Surrendering to Life's Uncertainties
• 1:11:03 Community Impact through Writing Programs

Transcript

Netanya (01:39) 

Yes, it is official. All right, Michael. I'm so happy you're here. Thank you for joining me today. this is unscripted. so I'm just gonna dive into what I'm curious about from previous conversations. You are not from here. Where are you from? 

Michael Carlson (01:53) 

I'm not. 

I moved to Nashville from Janesville, Wisconsin. 

Netanya (01:58) 

I know where that is. I love that I know where that is. It's not that far from where I'm from. ⁓ Northwest suburb, so do you know where Schomburg is? Illinois? Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, I usually, that's usually, nobody ever knows where I'm actually from, but that's kind of the closest big town that people have heard of. ⁓ 

Michael Carlson (02:01) 

Yeah. 

And where are you from? 

that's right. You're from the Chicago suburbs. Yeah, of course I know where Schomburg is. Absolutely. 

Right. 

Right, because 

I imagine you from Colorado because that's where you were at before you came here and you were at Colorado, you were in Colorado for some time, right? Five years. I really was going to say five years, but I'm like, don't, you're a little too confident. Okay. Yeah. 

Netanya (02:26) 

Yes. 

For five years. Yeah. 

And have you lived anywhere else other than those two places? 

Michael Carlson (02:41) 

I've lived, yeah, 

I've lived in 10 other states. I, yeah, I grew up in a military family. grew up in a large family. I was born in Fort Benning, Georgia, and then we moved all over and I basically, I was raised in Alaska. So from second grade till the summer before my freshman year in high school, I lived in two different places in Alaska. So that's kind of where I was raised. And then we ended up in Wisconsin. 

Netanya (02:45) 

That's right. 

I have so many questions already. ⁓ What was that like living in Alaska for most of your life? I don't know anyone that lives there permanently. I've known people that have traveled there. 

Michael Carlson (03:09) 

Yeah. 

I know. 

I know. Yeah. Great question. I would be asking the same thing if I were you, because it is a unique place to live. And there's not a lot of transference from, like, I don't meet a lot of people down here from Alaska, basically. I mean, to be transparent, I've kind of mentioned, 

Netanya (03:33) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (03:38) 

My childhood was pretty challenging for many reasons, primarily just because of my father and my relationship with him. I was the only boy. I had five sisters. So I went through a lot of things with him. So it was at once magical in Alaska when I had free time and when I was with friends or I was outside of that realm. It was amazing. It was beautiful. And I think for a kid too, it was really 

kind of perfectly adventurous because when you're a kid, don't care about stuff like how cold it gets, how dark it gets, I wasn't the one responsible for making sure the vehicle didn't break down in negative 50 degree weather. You know what I mean? So I just got to hang out. but no, it's truly, it's unlike anywhere I've lived. It's truly a very picturesque in the people there. 

Netanya (04:21) 

Right, yeah. 

Michael Carlson (04:32) 

were really sweet and growing up on a military base, you're just around a lot of people who know what it's like to be the new person. ⁓ kind of kids at those schools are kind of really good at being kind. So I had, ⁓ I felt very fortunate. 

Netanya (04:39) 

Yeah. 

That's really good. 

What about, if you don't mind me asking, what about your relationship with your father was so difficult? I ask because I have a similar experience. ⁓ But, mean, similar in that it was difficult. I don't know what the actual experience was, but what was that like for you? 

Michael Carlson (04:52) 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. 

No, no, for sure. 

Well, so he was in active alcoholism. And he was in, you know, he was in the Rangers. So he was special operations and he had been in a lot of combat. And so he had a lot of PTSD from combat, untreated for sure. Mistreated really with the alcohol, of course. And so 

He was, and I don't mind airing his business out really because I went through enough. So that's on him. That's his shit. So if he didn't want this on a podcast, he should have made different decisions. But no, with respect to him, without getting too much into the weeds. I was ⁓ a product of one of those strange 

Netanya (05:35) 

⁓ Fair. 

Michael Carlson (05:45) 

situations where the father vicariously wants to live through the sun. And so my father was very obsessed with wrestling as a sport. and he wanted me to be a wrestler and he wanted me to be the greatest wrestler ever. And so what started as something I thought was vaguely fun in first grade by second grade turned into a serious thing. And he started training me and I started cutting weight and 

This is a very common storyline, specifically in that sport at that time. You saw a lot of fathers behaving this way with their sons. It's really strange how common it was. But anyways, by second and third grade, basically it just turned into he trained, he started training me a lot. started, my life became kind of under his control and my days just got progressively harder. 

And by the time I was in fourth grade, my time was pretty much purely his. I trained all the time. I wasn't really able to hang out with friends. And I was just in a lot of pain all the time. So I ended up winning a national championship, seventh grade, eighth grade. Like going into high school, I was going to be the number one ranked in the country, but I hated it. And so it was just very, basically I lived my life in sacrifice for my father. 

body and my mind and it took a toll on me greatly, you know, so yeah. 

Netanya (07:07) 

Yeah, I can imagine. 

I'm just still thinking about that. That's not, so first of all, I want to go back for a second. I appreciate that what you said about, 

about wanting to be respectful, but also like, you're gonna talk about things that were true for you, even if he may not want you to talk about them. But why I'm saying that is because I, for a very long time, mine was more in terms of my marriage, but I would go to therapy or talk to friends or do things and I was struggling a lot. 

Michael Carlson (07:27) 

Yeah. 

Hmm. 

Netanya (07:40) 

and I wouldn't tell the whole truth because I was trying to be what I thought was respectful for like not airing someone else's laundry, so to speak, but I was also not getting help because I wasn't fully telling the truth about anything, right? So anything that involved both of us, I would. 

Michael Carlson (07:43) 

Hmm 

Mm-hmm. 

Netanya (08:00) 

half-truth or just tell my part without... I was trying to not include anything involved him even though we lived together so everything was involved but then what happened as a result of that is that I lied a lot or didn't get the help that I need because I was trying to protect his right to tell his own story. Does that make sense? 

Michael Carlson (08:19) 

Right, yeah, which 

I feel for you because it comes from a good place, but also it ends up hurting you and it also gives you a distorted view of how to even present. It sounds like, so this was your husband. So you and your husband, it was a turbulent relationship. 

Netanya (08:28) 

Yeah. 

It was, yeah. 

yes, there's a reason we're no longer married. Ex-husband. 

Michael Carlson (08:45) 

So, and 

you took on the role of often trying to do emotional damage control, both with him and then publicly, like public facing. 

Netanya (08:58) 

yeah, I was heavily 

codependent, for sure. Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (09:01) 

Yeah, yeah, I've seen, you 

know, I feel for you. I've seen a lot of women have that experience, including my mother. 

Netanya (09:07) 

Yeah, it's 

more common than I thought. The first time I was in therapy and the therapist was like, do you know what codependency is? And I was like, no. And she's like, well, we're going to talk about that. And she gave me a... 

Michael Carlson (09:16) 

Hmm 

Netanya (09:22) 

notebook or a workbook and it had a full description of what it was and examples and whatever and I there was somewhere in chapter 3 there was like 99 to 100 ⁓ Things that you could think do say or feel if you were codependent and I had like 93 of them I was like, this is a this is the thing I should look at ⁓ 

Michael Carlson (09:37) 

Bless you. 

And when and 

how long ago was that that you had that realization? 

Netanya (09:45) 

Uhhhh 

eight years ago? Nine years ago? 

Michael Carlson (09:50) 

Oh, I 

see. Okay, okay. So you've been going through identifying these things for quite some time now. 

Netanya (09:56) 

Yeah, yeah. huh. Seven? I think? Mm-hmm. Yeah, so we were in couples therapy trying to work things out and that whole thing unfolded and I learned a lot about myself at that point in time. And then, yeah. 

Michael Carlson (09:58) 

How long have you been divorced for? 

Gotcha, okay. 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah, divorce will do that. Yes, recently, yes. 

Netanya (10:16) 

Yeah, you have also been divorced, have you not? ⁓ got it. I'm going to back up real quick and ask you about your dad again, 

because I'm still curious about that. So that was when you were young, right? And then into high school, what happened after that? How is that relationship, or where did that go from there? At what point in time did you stop wrestling, and how did that go? 

Michael Carlson (10:25) 

Sure. 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

See 

Yeah, 

so yeah, great question. So my mother, bless her, my mother is an angel. She definitely, you know, they had six children together. And so there's obviously a lot that goes into, if she wanted to leave him, that was going to present a lot of challenges for a lot of people. But basically, the situation got 

so bad that she asked him to leave. Like, you need to leave the home. So he did. Which was, I jokingly say, but it was so true, like the best day of my life I'll never forget, because I was so used to, I mean, waking up and it was just, it was a hard life. And so when I woke up and went upstairs and my mother was like, your father's gone, he's never coming back. I was like, And, 

Netanya (11:04) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (11:24) 

We got to stay home that day from school and she just let us play video games and it was the greatest. but what transpired after that, so I quit wrestling pretty much right away. Soccer was my passion sport. I was very talented at that too, but what happened is my folks got divorced. I saw him minimally. And then he went to war for the invasion of Iraq. He went a little bit before. 

for like the main invasion, because he went into Afghanistan, but basically he went to war. I didn't see him for some years. I went to high school. I had a lot of issues. Yeah, my life, I went from being a very successful athlete and all these things and having so much promise to just like, things fell apart pretty quickly for me. And before I knew it, I was, inactive addiction, in high school. 

terrible student. I'm not doing anything outside of school other than skateboarding when I'm not strung out on drugs. basically he came back from war. I saw him once. It was bad. We had a really bad confrontation. He went back to Florida where he lived. I didn't see him for some time. And when I was 21 years old, he basically heard I was a heroin addict and 

things were falling apart and he had recently gotten sober. So there's this strange time in my life where my father then asked me to come live with him. judging by all the experiences I had, was it just kind of can tell you how bad of a spot I was in because I didn't, living in Janesville, Wisconsin, by that time I was 21 or 22 and I had been using heroin for a number of years. 

Netanya (12:35) 

Mm. 

⁓ 

Michael Carlson (13:00) 

and everything else I could get my hands on. And I just couldn't, you I had tried to start getting clean by probably the age of 19 or 20. And I just could, I just tried everything. I didn't know about rehab. I didn't know about 12 step meetings. I was just trying to do shit like, all right, I'm just going to use this much today and then a little less tomorrow. You know, I'll try, I'll try and weed myself off. Then I'll try and go cold turkey. Then I'll try and do this. 

Netanya (13:24) 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (13:29) 

I tried everything, do it. So when he said that, I was like, man, I need to get out of here. this place is killing me. So I moved in with him. I lived there for a number of years. He helped me kind of get a second life going, but it was also under the pretense, like we didn't talk about anything that happened. And what I didn't realize is I kind of fell right back into the role of just doing whatever he said. So which sucks because then 

Netanya (13:51) 

Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (13:54) 

like later on in life when our relationship took a turn, he almost was like, I thought we were good. And it's like, no. But ⁓ so basically I was in Florida. He was helping me go to school and everything, but we were both unhealthy in the sense that we didn't address anything. He wasn't really working a program. He was sober at the time, but you know, he wasn't making those changes. I had this undiagnosed addiction. I started using again and went from there. So then I'm in active addiction in Florida living with my father. So 

The short of the long is our relationship hasn't been great. I tried to repair it twice since I've been clean. Both times didn't go super well. And so we've only seen each other twice in the last 12 years. 

Netanya (14:38) 

This is fascinating. Is he still sober? He's not. So was he, when you lived with him and you went back out, was he still sober then? Okay. So at what point did you not live with him anymore after that? 

Michael Carlson (14:42) 

No, he's not anymore. 

Yes, he was. Yes, he was. ⁓ 

I got kicked out. ended up getting kicked out because I was a mess. And then I was living on someone's couch and then that was it. And that was 2011 and 2012. and then I didn't see him again until like 2017 or something. yeah. But yeah, and so then I 

Netanya (14:56) 

Okay. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (15:20) 

Florida was probably the worst, most, most dangerous and kind of horrifying parts of my active addiction. But it went on for a couple more years. And then I got clean in 2015 and yeah, so I'm coming up, you know, in that time. So. 

Netanya (15:28) 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. 

at what point did that, I guess what I want to know is at this point, how do you feel about the way that that went for you? Right? I think personally looking back on stuff and talking to other people, sometimes there's 

Some people have forgiven a lot of it and moved on. Some people have a lot of resentment about it. Some people are in between. Some people have other people that have filled father figure roles for them. I'm just curious how you feel about that, sort of in the past and where you're at today with it. 

Michael Carlson (16:02) 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah, 

thanks for asking. I would say I'm in a pretty good place with it. you know, 12 step and working the steps helped me own my part as best as I could. So I had to do the thing where I had to call and make amends to him. 

Netanya (16:26) 

Mm-hmm. 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (16:33) 

without ever having gotten an apology from him. So I suffered for many years as a child, without going into specific examples. I could share a few things with you and you'd maybe like, ⁓ yeah, that's not good. And ⁓ that was like every day for many years. So you suffer through something for so long. And then you have this person. 

Netanya (16:37) 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (17:02) 

you know, your abuser who denies or doesn't acknowledge anything that happened. And then you have to be the one to turn around and then apologize to this person about mistakes you made as an adult. However, it was very good for me to do that because it forced me 

Netanya (17:09) 

Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (17:27) 

I don't know if I ever forgave him for what happened, but I accepted it. I think it could be a little dangerous to have a child. I don't know about that. As an adult, I forgive the adult. 

Netanya (17:33) 

Mmm. 

Michael Carlson (17:42) 

And maybe I might forgive. don't think I've reached that point. Honestly. Yeah. I think I still have anger and stuff I'm working towards to like what happened when I was younger. However, as an adult, I forgave him. I was okay enough with him to make that phone call. I made that phone call. And so I took care of my stuff. And then we had a very surface relationship where we would talk maybe once a year, twice a year for five minutes. And I was just like, you know what? 

once I started going to therapy, basically I was like, I'm gonna give him an opportunity to acknowledge what happened. So basically I grew enough as a person, I guess, to answer your question that I was able to identify my own needs and be like, hey, you know, if I'm gonna be in a relationship with you, I want it to be a real relationship, because I love you and I want us 

Netanya (18:19) 

Mm-hmm. 

Right. 

Michael Carlson (18:34) 

If we're going to be in each other's lives, I want it to be real. But for it to be real, we have to talk about what happened and you will need to apologize to me. that's all there is to it. And you're not going to emotionally manipulate your way out of it because if you're going to try and do that, I'm gone. And so that's essentially what I did. it didn't go super well. I learned a lot from that. I unfortunately had higher expectations and 

Netanya (18:42) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (18:58) 

There's also this whole thing where he doesn't talk to any of my sisters and I have a really hard time. my sisters don't have a father in their life and that pissed me off. So I was like, I'm gonna, I thought I could emotionally manipulate him basically into seeing like, hey, this is why you need to be a better father. Like you can be however you want with me, but you need to step up with it. it was, was, know, so it didn't go super well. 

Netanya (19:05) 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (19:23) 

we had another meeting and so where it sits is like, he has his beliefs and viewpoints and I have mine and it's just sad and it's just not healthy for me to be around him. So where am I at with it now? It makes me sad. It's hard. but I'm also at peace with what I've tried to do. 

Netanya (19:35) 

Mm-hmm. 

I like that a lot, especially when you said that about, I think those lines get blurred a lot, acceptance and forgiveness. I also think sometimes people tout forgiveness a lot, like, you should forgive everything. And it's like, well, some of this is really traumatic, right? It's not, you don't just, you know, and that's another long tangent on things, but I don't always think that's the right thing. But I think acceptance is a really beautiful place to land, Because it's, it helps you to keep going and to 

Michael Carlson (19:57) 

Yeah. 

Netanya (20:10) 

heal. 

Michael Carlson (20:11) 

Yeah, exactly. So, yeah. 

Netanya (20:15) 

What was your, so while all of this was happening, what were your sisters doing? What was the rest of your family doing? Kind of generally. 

Michael Carlson (20:21) 

how they were like, 

yeah. So the general arc of my family is kind of, is pretty special. These last couple of years have been tough for our family, but prior to that, basically the divorce, you everyone had, everyone was pretty messed up after the divorce, you know, all of us kids and my mother. And so we all had our periods of 

Netanya (20:39) 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (20:44) 

kind of falling apart in our own ways. know, and it was really rough. I went into addiction. My one sister, attempted suicide twice. Thankfully someone found her and it was just crazy story after crazy story. My mother, God bless her. she's just had one of the hardest lives, of people I've known. All this stuff, we all get spread out. And then my mother had this sister who lived in Janesville, Wisconsin. 

And so, yeah, my aunt, I vaguely knew her. So basically, my mother moves, she's taking care of four children on her own. This woman's just traumatized, working two jobs. We don't have money. Then my mother, her four children, then my one sister was already living with my aunt. We all move into my aunt's basement in Janesville, Wisconsin. So there's like six or seven of us living in this basement. 

Netanya (21:11) 

Did you know her, that sister? The aunt? Yeah. Okay. 

you 

Michael Carlson (21:37) 

And that started that Janesville, Wisconsin chapter. then just fast forward little by little, all of us did our healing. We did our growing. You know, my sisters, they got jobs. They made careers for themselves in Janesville. I ended up getting clean, coming back home to Janesville. And so there was a stretch in the first five, six years of my clean time where we were always doing stuff together, like my whole family. 

Netanya (22:04) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (22:06) 

it's really beautiful. And so we got really close and we just love each other very much. So my sisters, you know, to answer your question, a number of them work at the same corporation out of Janesville and they've worked up, you know, they live the corporate life and they do well for themselves. And a lot of my sisters have children and married and live in homes and my mother lives in her little duplex in Janesville. 

Netanya (22:19) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (22:29) 

She's a happy woman. So yeah, so it turned out pretty well. 

Netanya (22:29) 

That's awesome. 

Yeah, I would say so. I love that you all, you it's hard when we go through hard things together and all have different struggles, but to be able to come, to find your way back to each other, each in your own way is a really beautiful gift. 

Michael Carlson (22:48) 

Yeah, yeah, it's very, it's very, I don't know, I never, know, kind of like my recovery, like my own family, I think we're constantly reliving the pleasant shock of that we actually get to have a family and be close with each other, because I don't think we expected that to happen. So I think we all are really happy that we just get to be brothers and sisters and sons and daughters and stuff. 

Netanya (23:04) 

you 

Yeah. 

That's really beautiful way to say that. It also sort of brings you back to, the little things that are really big things and that sometimes, not to be very cliche, but that sometimes when you've had a lot of dark, the light is so much brighter because you know what, you know, especially if you didn't have that hope expectation for yourself or your family, to get that feels like a really big win. 

Michael Carlson (23:20) 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. 

I mean, yeah, that's very well put. And that's kind of something in writing that I didn't realize this really until just now. But I think it emotionally pulls me in ways, like, for example, maybe having a moment at one of my sister's homes and having all my family in close proximity. I am very fascinated. I mean, who wouldn't be? 

But ⁓ I guess I am fascinated in how much history is in that room at that time and how powerful context is. Like with anyone, you meet people and you just see them. But had you known what they went through and what it took to get there, that would be a totally different story. So in writing, it's always fascinating to see, you know, how can you build a history for a character? 

Netanya (24:07) 

Mmm... Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (24:27) 

or how can you contextualize a scene so when that moment happens, the reader's situated and is like, my gosh, this is such a big deal for them because this happened. That totally comes from just what's happened with my family, for sure. Yeah. 

Netanya (24:33) 

Mm-hmm. 

That's awesome. That was a great 

way to put that. And for those of you listening, Michael and I know each other from a writing workshop for Writing in Recovery, which is a really great program that The Porch offers here in Nashville that has just been really great. And I do want to talk about that more at some point, but I want to have a question from our earlier conversation. Oh, yeah. 

Michael Carlson (24:53) 

Yes. 

Well, may, 

can you, are you, will you not forget it? Can I ask a question or are you going to forget yours? 

Netanya (25:07) 

You can ask a question. I do. 

Michael Carlson (25:09) 

Do you have siblings? 

How many and are you close with them? And you don't have to answer if you don't want. 

Netanya (25:13) 

⁓ I have 

Thank you for the permission I have one biological sibling who is a sister. She's older than I am and She is quite a bit older than me. So she's about roughly 13 years older than me. We have the same parents and I have two stepbrothers. So when I was very when I was when I was born 

my parents were in the middle of a divorce. I was very much an accident. Yep. So we just came out, came out kicking over here. And then when I was maybe two or three, my dad got remarried and my stepmom had two sons. And so I grew up with most, from when I was three-ish till about 16. 

Michael Carlson (25:38) 

Okay. Born into a divorce. Wow. 

Netanya (26:00) 

and then they got divorced. 

Michael Carlson (26:03) 

blessing. Okay. Yeah. 

Netanya (26:05) 

Yeah. Why do you, 

what's your question? Why did you want to know? 

Michael Carlson (26:08) 

I mean, if we're being honest, ⁓ I mean, there's just things that I appreciate about your character. You're very, and it doesn't surprise me that you're doing this podcast format is you're very emotionally attentive to people that are in the room. You're very considerate, socially of what's going on. You're asking me these great questions. It's been my experience that me and my sisters have 

Netanya (26:10) 

yeah we're being honest. 

Michael Carlson (26:37) 

gotten some of those skills because of the experiences that we've had. And I know you and I share other things in common, but I was just, yeah, just curious if you have siblings too and a little bit about your family history. So yeah. 

Netanya (26:50) 

Yeah. 

Any other questions while we're at it? And thank you for saying that. 

Michael Carlson (26:52) 

No, I'll I'll leave it at that. Yeah. 

It's hard for me to have a more of a one side. I struggle with this in therapy and I've had to lean into it with my therapist because I would do that thing where I'm like, her name's Amy. And I would need her to tell me how she's doing. And I would need to know she's okay before I started. Cause I'm like, what kind of asshole just comes in here and just talks for, you know what I mean? Like we already have an epidemic of men. 

Netanya (26:58) 

Yeah! 

huh. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (27:20) 

controlling rooms and now I'm supposed to just tell this woman all about me for an hour without you know and so I'm trying to be more comfortable in this format but you're asking me all these great questions and now I want to ask you questions but I'm gonna I'm gonna surrender I'm gonna go back to your format you can ask me more questions. 

Netanya (27:24) 

Yeah. 

Well, what I love about this is that it really is a conversation So ask me questions, you know, it's just the point is to record 

Michael Carlson (27:43) 

Yeah, right. OK. 

Netanya (27:48) 

the truth about things and that includes me as well, right? And people do ask me stuff sometimes. I'm happy to answer and I always tell people if you don't want to answer something that I ask you, just tell me no. I will say like, hey, I'm not up for that today, you know? But please ask. Yeah, you're free to ask the rest of this conversation. I'm curious, you said you were in Janesville and then you left to go into recovery. Did you go to another state? 

Michael Carlson (28:01) 

I appreciate that. Yeah. 

Okay. 

⁓ sorry. so when I moved in with my, I left Janesville to move in with my father who was living in Tampa, Florida. Was that the time or, ⁓ 

Netanya (28:25) 

No, I'm sorry. 

I mean, when you went to rehab or when you got clean, did you get clean in another place? I think, unless I misunderstood that. 

Michael Carlson (28:29) 

Oh yeah, OK, so no. So great question. 

No great question. So I was in Tampa, FL for four years and I had gone to rehab a few times while I was in Tampa. And then I ended up in Evansville, A bunch of stuff happened there within less than a year and I was about to check into a men's shelter. And. 

Basically, my mother drove from Janesville, Wisconsin to get me and what possessions I had left and drive me back home to Janesville. And then my sister was living in a nearby city and she let me move in with her and her husband, which at the time was a pretty big risk because yeah, I did not have a good track record at all. but that's where I started my recovery and I stayed there. So from, that was in 2013. 

Netanya (29:09) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (29:19) 

It took me a few years to get the clean time I have now. So I started my recovery in Janesville in 2013 and finally got the clean time that I have now in November 2015. And then I didn't move from Janesville until I moved to Nashville in 2022. 

Netanya (29:36) 

OK, very cool. I love talking about this, especially with time or. 

number of attempts at things because it's just a very real part of process. But I'm curious about something that this is gonna seem random but I was thinking about it yesterday and I haven't talked to anybody about this really, is about the concept of time in recovery. And so I realized I don't love the concept of time because it doesn't tell me anything I wanna know. 

Michael Carlson (29:46) 

Mm-hmm. 

Mm-hmm. 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Netanya (30:04) 

Really? You know, it 

tells me how much time since you last picked up, but it doesn't tell me how much you're working on yourself, how much you've grown, how much you've healed, how much you've progressed, right, throughout that. And so, and I have been, I have been like attacked with that question. Like how much time do you have? And I was in a meeting, I was chairing a meeting and this guy walked in who I didn't know and sort of attacked me with that and I could feel that it was a challenge, right? It wasn't a general inquiry, it was like, 

Michael Carlson (30:12) 

Sure. Sure. 

Hmm 

Netanya (30:34) 

He wanted me to tell me how much time he had so that or he wanted to ask me so that I would ask him. and so 

Michael Carlson (30:34) 

Yeah. 

Yeah, it's like a setup. Yeah. 

Netanya (30:44) 

I don't love that question, but I was with someone not that long ago who I was getting coffee with and he was saying something about his time and he said, well this time I have about six months. And I said, I found myself asked, well how long do you have? And I sort of cringed afterwards, but then I realized I kind of went and did like, what's the bigger question? What do I really want to know? Cause I don't care about how much time you have clean. What I really wanted to know is how long have you been in recovery? 

Michael Carlson (31:00) 

Mm-hmm. 

Mm-hmm. 

Netanya (31:13) 

How long have 

you been in this world of this is language that you understand so I know how to talk to you, right? If you're brand new at this, there's some stuff you might not know. Versus if you've been around a while, even if you don't have a lot of clean time, I can just kind of speak differently. 

Michael Carlson (31:18) 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

No, totally. It's funny you said it too, because I was one of the I remember I asked you and I could tell you were a little unsettled by it and I felt bad. Yeah, I felt I felt bad. But also, that wasn't the first time I've seen someone get unsettled by that question. And I totally understand where you're coming from. Also, to be on the receiving end of that too, like, and I've told a friend of mine in recovery, like, I, I don't like asking people that question. 

Netanya (31:34) 

I think it was right after that happened. Anyway, continue. 

Michael Carlson (31:57) 

and then having them unsettled and then like I happen to have more time. It's just a bad weird situation, but it's funny because as you're talking about it, yeah, there's all sorts of posturing and stuff involved. I think I didn't realize this until you were talking about it that. Nashville and being in a city in recovery is much different. I think there's a lot more posturing. With clean time and using that as like this social currency. 

Netanya (31:59) 

Yeah. 

Yes. 

Michael Carlson (32:21) 

Because in where I'm from in Janesville, one of the big impetuses, I think, behind asking that question is there's not many people with much time where I'm from. And what we get a lot more is newcomers who bullshit a lot about it. So they'll just be like, oh, one line I've heard, and it's been my experience, is 

Netanya (32:24) 

Mm-hmm. 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (32:50) 

a lot of people who say this, there's some sort of reservation they have, or they're not totally committed to their recovery. And it's almost that early, that addict arrogance in early recovery, when you want to be different, or want to know some shit. And so I'll be like, Hey, how long do you have? And they're like, I'm not really counting. I just have just for today. And I'm like, is that because you're embarrassed because you have six days clean? Or like, like, where are you at? You know? And so I think 

One of the reasons we ask that question is because we want people to be proud of how much time they have, but we like to just, we just like to know because what happens is, know, to me, and I see where you're, you have a totally valid point that I want to speak on just a second that I think is beautiful and I'm glad you're passionate about that very thing. It's hard sometimes to get newcomers to be proud of clean talent. 

Netanya (33:21) 

Yes, always. 

Michael Carlson (33:39) 

So we are kind of a little more forthright of like, hey, no, you've been clean 11 days, that's a big deal. But you need to have a clean date. And then the add-on to that is working with so many newcomers who lie about their clean date. But to go back to what you were saying, that's been my experience for sure. And clean time can work against people so much. And I don't think we do a great job in recovery. 

Netanya (33:54) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (34:06) 

Yeah, it's a hard thing to honor clean time in a way that doesn't become divisive sometimes ⁓ to people who just are your equals and want to feel equal. But then clean time is just a part of your story. And so it's always an ongoing topic. So I think that's, yeah. 

Netanya (34:19) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (34:32) 

you know, as I say, clean time doesn't equal recovery. 

Netanya (34:35) 

No, 

and I've seen people, I mean I've seen people relapse with a number of years and have a really hard time because they were so attached to the number that... 

Michael Carlson (34:42) 

yeah. 

Netanya (34:50) 

that was part of their foundation was that number. And so with the number being gone, they built an identity around it. And so a lot more got shaken than just that. And then just relapse in general, is, I've seen people have a lot of shame around it or come back in and say, you know, look what I gave up or look what I lost. And I get a little on a baby soap box about like, still have 

Michael Carlson (35:02) 

Mm-hmm. 

Netanya (35:20) 

that knowledge. Right? You're not the same as the first time you walked in this door, 

Michael Carlson (35:21) 

Yeah. 

yeah, yeah, because they want to feel like, yeah. And the only person they're hurting is themselves, you know. And that's what's sad about, The shame and the relapsing is so heavy. I just talked to someone at a meeting the other day who just came back after a few years. And they have 50 something days now, but they were just like, doing well, they're super recommitted and everything. But that was their first time. 

Netanya (35:42) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (35:53) 

being out there after being exposed to recovery. And that is just different, at least in my experience, because before when I was using, I had not felt any sort of hope for change or anything like that. And so then, then when you actually start changing or having some hope or whatever, and then you're back in that stuff again, it's just like, it's like doubly wretched. So yeah. 

Netanya (36:07) 

Mm-hmm. 

Well, and I would imagine it's something like you can't unsee what you've seen, right? 

Michael Carlson (36:28) 

Entirely 

and you have this conscience that you did not have before Yeah 

Netanya (36:32) 

Yeah. 

have, relapse has not been a part of my story. And even saying that makes me cringe because it doesn't mean I'm better than anyone else. And in fact, there have been many times I've felt shame about that. Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (36:42) 

Alright. 

You showed it, I'll just soapbox 

for one second. I love, I love when I hear that statement. My sponsor has the same story. I don't ever wanna hear anyone have to go through laughs. So I, as someone who's been through plenty of them, I'm, it makes my heart well, like sincerely when I hear someone say it. So I'm glad you haven't gone through real laughs. 

Netanya (37:09) 

Well, when people ask me about that, really listen when people share their stories about relapse, how they got there, whatever. And I just believe them. So often, the people come back and say the same thing, which is I went right back to where I came from. It didn't matter how many years I had. I went right back. 

and it was as equally as hard and now I have to dig out of it again and and similar to what I said before like I know a lot more now so it's not even fun. 

Michael Carlson (37:38) 

Well, and it's very clear that you listen because like my sponsor and other people who haven't gone through relapse, if they're not listening and if they're not believing these people, then they do go back out. So it's obvious that you listen to them. So that's really cool that you respect it that much. 

Netanya (37:55) 

Well, and I don't think I'm any different. I am an addict. I don't think that, how many more years of that is gonna make it. I see a lot of people get stuck on the, thought I could have just one, and I just cannot ever get close to that because I it doesn't matter if I could or couldn't or think I could or maybe I could or I've learned so much now. Whatever story you wanna tell yourself, like, I am a... 

Michael Carlson (38:08) 

my god, yeah. 

Netanya (38:21) 

generally a pro-risk human, I will take risks that are calculated or smart or whatever in the way that I function, that is not a risk that I am willing to take. 

Michael Carlson (38:31) 

That's 

amazing, Natanya. Good. I love hearing that, you know, because it's just very important. 

Netanya (38:35) 

Anyway. 

I just think I'll end up exactly where they tell me that I will because they did already, you know? ⁓ 

Michael Carlson (38:45) 

Yeah, yeah, 

absolutely. Yeah, it's horrible. 

Netanya (38:49) 

So I'm curious about where you turned, or maybe you always had this and we just didn't talk about this, where did you turn towards writing? 

both just because it's such a, so I write and we talked about this somewhat, I write very inspirationally and it's about emotion and feeling. And one of the things I love about this class and being in there and watching you teach and all the different things that we've talked about is it's such a different way for me to think, right? Like scene writing and telling a story from that space is such a different way to come about that. And what you said earlier when you were talking about 

Michael Carlson (39:05) 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. 

Netanya (39:24) 

And I could almost see it. Like the scene in that home and the stories of each person. Like that's a book somewhere in there if you haven't written that already. And I would be so curious to read it. But what I'm wanting to know is how did you, at what point did that become a thing for you? Did you always write? Or where did that become the thing that you now do for a living? 

Michael Carlson (39:30) 

Yeah. 

Yeah. Well, I like telling the following story, but I'll say on the mode of writing you're used to and stuff, I'm excited because this weekend I have this little activity that I think plays to everyone well and I'm excited for it. I get, I don't know, sometimes I get emotional talking about this stuff. So, because it just means the world to me, but I like telling this story. 

because how I got into writing and having the childhood I have, if I look back, there was always an interest in books. So I think I just had it as a kid, but it was never, that soil wasn't fed, it wasn't watered in any sort of way. And then I just remember feeling really heartbroken, but I was very angry in high school that I skipped a lot of school. 

I had a lot of hurt and anger and I did not adjust well at all. And I didn't, I wasn't proud of being a bad high school student, but I had a huge hip chip on my shoulder. and also at the time, teachers were not all straight up. My high school administration did a shitty job dealing with problem kids. they had no training, no language for it. Like 

Netanya (40:58) 

yeah. 

Michael Carlson (41:02) 

you know, the slightest, condescension or something from my end, and they just came back at me, you know? And it's like, I'm a 16, 17 year old kid, who's clearly struggling and you're gonna shame me? So anyways, all this to say, I think I really wanted to be in the classroom, I didn't have what it took. And it always broke my heart. And so because I still loved reading. And so I read outside of high school. 

Netanya (41:08) 

Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (41:24) 

But when I went to Florida and I got into a community college, I was 21 years old and it was just like, it meant the world to me. I used to have dreams when I was in active addiction that I was back in school. And they were sad dreams because I would not be getting good grades or not turning my work in on time. And I'd be like, just, just give me a chance kind of thing. 

Netanya (41:38) 

Mmm. 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (41:50) 

So then now I'm in Florida and I'm at this community college and I'm in school. And I'm like, my God, I'm in school. this is amazing. I was so excited. And I took this literature class with this guy, Professor Jeff Rubenstein. And it was probably the first day or second day. It was just his zest for literature and how he talked about it. 

Netanya (41:56) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (42:18) 

and who he was and he was reading Faulkner in class and then he was talking about it and a light bulb went off in my head and I just thought this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. this seems to be the most important thing to me is sharing this, And so that, I wasn't conscious of that, but that's looking back now. So anyways, 

So then I started taking all these classes and I'm reading all these books, but then I plunged back into active addiction. So as I'm in an active addiction, I borrowed a book from Jeff and I also was in the National Guard. There's just a lot of stuff going on and I'm just messing up left and right. And I had become friends with Jeff. 

Netanya (43:05) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (43:05) 

And I tried to take advantage of my friendship with him by asking him for an extension on a paper. And he sent me this response and he said, no, and give me my book back. And it devastated me. I felt so like he basically was just like, I can't believe you would, you know, try and leverage our friendship, you know, and it devastated me. anyways, I am 22 when this happens. 

Netanya (43:12) 

Mmm. 

Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (43:35) 

and then I had to go to class after that. So now I'm so I'm in his class. I'm dope sick. Then I start skipping his class literally driving to a dope house in the Tanya and while classes going on, I'm back in this dope house and I'm like. How did this happen again? And I was so heartbroken. So fast forward to. 

Netanya (43:38) 

Yeah, so you still have to see him. 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (44:01) 

Eight years later, I'm in Wisconsin. I'm working the steps. I've been clean for a couple of years. It's time for my ninth step. It's time to call people and make amends. And I was terrified of calling Jeff. I just felt so, because before I made this phone call, I never thought I would be in school ever again. So it was also hard to bring myself to call him. 

to make amends to this part of my life that would never be. But I was like, well, I have to call and make my amends. So I called and he had never known what happened to me. And I explained to him that I was in active addiction at the time and he told me he was so sorry. He said, I figured something was going on. You were out of it. You were failing my class. And he was so sweet. 

And I got off the phone and I remember the parking lot I was in. I had just dropped a Sponsee off at his apartment. And all of a sudden I just thought, I want to go back to school. I want to go back to a classroom. And at the time it was insane. I was about to get married, like the fuck, I'm going to go to school and I'm 30. what are you doing? And it just took over. I just had to go back to a classroom. And so it started with wanting to go to school. 

Short along as I meet another mentor who further inspired me and I just decided to go for it and I learned about these things called MFAs and. They would pay you to go to school. ⁓ sorry, Masters in Fine Arts. Yeah, so I love how you asked for clay. I like I do really love that about you, cause I'm the same way. So I love that about you. So. 

Netanya (45:29) 

And what is an MFA? Thank you. 

I love it. 

Michael Carlson (45:44) 

this mentor of mine, I'm learning about him. You know, as addicts, we're just trying to like, ⁓ like now that I want this, I need to learn how to do it. And so I learned that, you know, he got this MFA and, and, and basically at the time I learned that if you could write a short story well enough. 

you could get admission into a master's in fine arts program. And a lot of the top MFA schools would pay your tuition, give you healthcare, and also pay you a monthly stipend. So then it would be like a job. So I was like, I have this window now, this year window to figure out how to write. And if I can write a good enough story, I can go to the next level. And so that's what I did. 

Netanya (46:18) 

Mm-hmm. 

And so that was here. 

Michael Carlson (46:31) 

That's how I got to Nashville. So I got into Vanderbilt's MFA. 

Netanya (46:35) 

And now you teach. 

Michael Carlson (46:38) 

And yeah, now I teach and now, yeah, now it's, I'm going to try and go to the next level and that would be eventually getting a university teaching job. And so there's all sorts of things I have to do to get there. 

Netanya (46:52) 

Yeah, 

that was a really beautiful story. And you can tell how much you care about that. ⁓ But I love that now in two different parts of your life, one was your family and two was really your career, you've had very rough beginnings and somehow found your way back to a much better ending. You know, and not that it's the end, it's the beginning really, but just, you know I'm saying? 

Michael Carlson (46:58) 

Thank you. 

Yeah. 

Netanya (47:18) 

to be able to come around and to say, we're not done here. And I have say in how the rest of my life goes and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, step into that. 

Michael Carlson (47:23) 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah, 

no, I appreciate that. Yeah, I really do care, you know, and I appreciate you recognizing that, Natanya, because yeah, I mean, by the time I got back into the classroom when I was 30, I mean, the reality was I 15 years before that, I was in high school classrooms messing up, brokenhearted. Eight years, seven years later, I was in a community college classroom messing up, brokenhearted. And so the opportunity to be there yet again, 

was so charged that it just meant the world to me. And also I was just doing it because that's all I knew what to do. It was kind of like this blind faith. But along the way, I started believing in the arts. And then that was different. When I actually saw what it did in my life, it made me kind of evangelical. 

Netanya (48:18) 

Mm-hmm. 

Right. 

Michael Carlson (48:27) 

Not kind of, it made me evangelical about the arts. It made me actually have a belief in the power of the arts. And so that was cool because I think I thought it was more of a superficial environment. And then I really saw like, no, you can really help people with this. because it helped me. 

Netanya (48:46) 

Mm-hmm. Well, and it's, and 

it's whether you know it or not, it's a really beautiful story of just for anyone that, thinks it's too late for something in your life, that it's never too late to begin again. 

Michael Carlson (48:59) 

Right, right. I mean, I mean, there's costs, it's hard sometimes, you know, I'm 38 now and working at Barcelona, I serve people all the time who are, you know, almost half my age who have homes in these high paying jobs and all this stuff. And it's very easy for me to compare sometimes. But I did 

choose the path that I'm on and it's not the most financially viable, but it's spiritually fulfilling. and that is something I'm very, you and we all have our, there's just times where I'm like, why am I doing this? But it's like, this is all I care about. I imagine it's, an architect, I would like to think there's some architects out there, that's their thing. you're not going to tell them not to be an architect. Like this, 

Netanya (49:38) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (49:47) 

I want to teach. I wish I could be rich doing it, but that's OK. 

Netanya (49:53) 

Well, 

and the beautiful thing is, I'll challenge that for a moment here, is that I was you not that long ago, right? I... 

Michael Carlson (49:59) 

Yeah. 

Netanya (50:01) 

My career has changed many times. I don't need to explain all that at this point, but I'm happy to later but there came a point when I Worked for myself for a while. I moved to Colorado. I got sober. I worked for a nonprofit in recovery for a couple years. I was so broke and Then I left and I left because of a lot of things but I just I needed a minute and I was like I care so much about 

mental health recovery all of this world and yet this job isn't it I can't do this job forever It's not sustainable I was burning out and so I took a step back and when I did that I leaned on the thing that I have had for many years which is serving ⁓ 

Michael Carlson (50:43) 

yeah. 

Netanya (50:44) 

And I worked in in steamboat in, you know, it's a tourist town. So I worked in restaurants and I got real good at it and I got all the best shifts and I made good money. Right. And so in doing that, it gave me a minute to step away and sort of reconsider what I want to do, how I want to do that. And I just think and what you're seeing me live into in this moment is I then moved to Nashville. And when I first came here, I had fully intended on just taking serving jobs because it's easy. 

Michael Carlson (50:54) 

Yeah. 

Netanya (51:14) 

for me to transfer that skill. I can pick up a serving job in any city when you've done it as long as I have, that's not a big deal. 

Michael Carlson (51:16) 

Right, right. 

Netanya (51:22) 

And that was my intention. then three days before I moved, the company that I now work for, they hired me to be a service, like a captain, like a lead server there. And they called me three days before I moved and said, do you want a full-time job? Because your resume says that we think you could do more than just serve here. And they needed help. And you know where that went from there. ⁓ But it was just, I trusted a lot. And I kept saying yes. 

Michael Carlson (51:33) 

Mm-hmm. 

That's so cool. 

Netanya (51:48) 

and where I want to go with my life. I currently work in the hospitality industry and run events and do things which is really beautiful, but it lends itself to what I want to do in the future. I don't want to work in hospitality forever. And they knew that when they hired me. I talked about what I want to do in the interview. But yeah. But I just, what I'm saying is that I had to find a way, I want to go build things in recovery. And I will. 

Michael Carlson (51:58) 

Yeah. Right, Right. Everyone in hospitality knows that. Yeah. 

Mm. Mm. 

Yeah. 

Netanya (52:12) 

And, 

but I had to kind of find my way around how can I still, I will forever, I have a degree in teaching also, I don't know if we talked about that. I will forever be a teacher. 

Michael Carlson (52:18) 

No. 

Yeah. 

Netanya (52:23) 

at 

my core, like I just, I couldn't stay in the public school system of America. That was not how teaching worked for me. So how do I take like all these things, helping people run online businesses? I did that for a couple years, working for a nonprofit, skills I learned in the customer service industry, and then how to lead groups and teach discussions and lead a classroom and lead a group of people and put all that together. And guess what? That is a magical recipe for everything that I want to do in the future. But it doesn't, it seems all 

Michael Carlson (52:30) 

Yeah. 

Mm-hmm. 

Right, right, right. 

Netanya (52:53) 

not connected. And so I just, where I was going with this for you is that I had to rethink maybe I don't work within the same system that everybody tells me that I work in and how do I still teach people because I care more about teaching than I do anything. 

Michael Carlson (53:03) 

Mm-hmm. 

bright. 

Netanya (53:08) 

And I do it in the daily. Like I do it at work. I do it in just side conversations. And now you're watching me as I built something that I could connect with people on so that we could share this stuff with people who can't hear yet. That's a different form of teaching. Right? So and how do I keep doing the things that I'm passionate about and stay open to how this might unfold differently than I got attached to? There's not just one way to be a teacher. 

Michael Carlson (53:18) 

Yeah. 

Yeah, yeah. 

Hmm. 

Netanya (53:36) 

Right? And in the same way with writing. there's so many things you could do with that. And I have no idea what you might, you know, what rabbit hole you might find your way to. But I have a lot of faith that if you wanted to stay open to that, that you might be surprised. 

Michael Carlson (53:51) 

Yeah, no, 

I appreciate that. I, yeah. And that's so cool to hear more about how things culminated with you, you know. And I'm happy for you and I'm interested to see what, you know, comes next for you. ⁓ Because that is, it sounds like it's been a long time coming for you and that's wonderful, you know. ⁓ 

Netanya (54:09) 

Hahaha 

Well, yeah, 

and just to say that even though you're doing that today, there's some people that want to be a server for life, which is awesome. I know people that that is their choice, it's their vocation. They want to do that and live in a ski town, and it affords them the opportunity to do that for a life, and they love it. I wasn't that human. I used it as a bridge. Right? 

Michael Carlson (54:21) 

Mm-hmm. 

Right. 

Right. 

Right, yeah, no, and 

it's interesting because I'm fortunate right now because thankfully I only have to serve part time because I work at this art center on campus. I think I've said that in class, but like yeah, my heart goes out to people who have to serve full time and I was getting ready to do that before I took this like fellowship. I'm in right now, but it's like you know, work at serving full time in the service industry is like a totally different beast. know, so just doing it part time, but yeah, I. 

Netanya (54:50) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (55:08) 

And with the path I chose, I'm in an interesting spot right now, like post MFA, where essentially for me to get to that next level, it's either get a PhD or sell a book. And I'm trying to go the book route because, yeah, the PhD is just a whole nother commitment. And I don't know if I'm ready for that or want to do that and all these things. And so it's a very interesting kind of self-searching kind 

time working these two jobs, writing in between, also, obviously, post divorce and all this stuff. so, yeah, one thing I appreciate you and other people in my life is the spiritual life, just the connection to relationships and what's important. 

Netanya (55:40) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (55:57) 

seems to be an anchor across the board. I hear that a lot when I, you know, I listen to a lot of interviews 

I do appreciate that about you and hearing some of your stories. seems like part of the impetus to this podcast. 

and some things you're going through is you seem to be interested with, at the basis, connection and truth and the way you're asking me these questions, it's like, what has happened to you and how are you responding to it? And what did that do to you? And which is to say you care about people. And I've had to draw back on that because Vanderbilt, 

Um, I don't mind saying, uh, it is one of the hardest program. mean, most of the MFA programs are very hard to get into just because it's such a, it's a crazy industry now. there's for most of the top schools, there's a few hundred applicants for six spots or less. You know what I mean? So it's just like this dream shot, you know? Um, and Vanderbilt, especially cause there was like, 

Netanya (56:53) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (57:00) 

someone who I studied, who mentored my mentor that I wanted to study under and so getting in. But basically, there's a natural performative pressure that came with that as a writer and just as a person. And I think that's fine. And I think it was good in a way. It taught me a lot in a way. Don't get me wrong. But I say this whole rant to say that as an artist and just as a person, I'm learning how to slow down today. 

and to take the pressure off and it's really opening things up for me. 

Netanya (57:35) 

Well, and it's a, what you said is accurate, right? It's a practice. Like you have to work at that. That's not natural for most people. And and I don't know if I made that sound really easy, what I said before about this sort of, not linear journey that I've been, but there was a lot of times when I had to lean on faith. 

Michael Carlson (57:43) 

Yeah, yeah. 

Netanya (57:56) 

And I, mean, whatever that means to you, I'm not talking about religious connotations specifically. I'm just talking about faith that it's gonna work out, that I'll figure it out, that if I can't figure it out, that I can ask for help. And that I've just, I've seen enough and done enough to know that sometimes life surprises me. 

Michael Carlson (58:01) 

I like I know what you mean. 

Netanya (58:13) 

I think if you can leave room for that it which is really we'll go back to what we talked about in the beginning which is surrender can you surrender to You know, there's only so much you can control you've done certain things you've worked on certain things and at some point you kind of have to step back and say like All right. What do you got for me now? and I don't know, what your relationship to higher power is like but it's I 

Mine has changed a lot. but just the concept of it in general, of something bigger than yourself and trusting that you're not alone and you don't have to human figure it all out right now. 

Michael Carlson (58:49) 

Mm-hmm. 

Netanya (58:50) 

And that you didn't know some people a couple months ago. didn't know, you you and I didn't know each other not that long ago, right? And that you start, kind of find your way and things open and then you have a new, from that new seat, then you have different perspective and then you have a different conversation and then something else changes, 

Michael Carlson (58:57) 

Right. 

Yeah, 

no, entirely. And, I'm going to lose it and I can't. 

That was going to really bother me because you said something that but yeah, I. 

Netanya (59:22) 

Hahaha 

Michael Carlson (59:27) 

It's gone. it's about getting it's about getting older. ⁓ Okay Yeah, and I think when you said high power and spirituality and you were talking about some of those principles and made me think of this guy, you know, we all hear those cliches and recovery and 

Netanya (59:31) 

you almost 

Michael Carlson (59:41) 

one the cliches early on is like, don't be in the results business, which is pointing, of course, people in recovery to just focusing on making the effort because that's all you can control. And I think that's a very healthy practice. And it's been my experience that a lot of those cliches, just kind of just anything in life in general, the more you practice, then the more powerful they become as a concept. 

Netanya (59:51) 

Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (1:00:06) 

And I'm really having to learn how to do that in a different way today and to really focus on that. And because there's a lot of peace in that, we're all haunted by things. And one thing I'm haunted by, and it's unfortunately heavily informed by language my father used and stuff, but like, I'm haunted by the concept of not making the most of my opportunity, you know, ⁓ gratitude is 

Netanya (1:00:31) 

Mmm... Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (1:00:33) 

such a beautiful thing. However, I can pervert gratitude into being this pressure cooker of like, are you really grateful for what you have? What are you going to do with it? You know, ⁓ you're so grateful. I mean, this is literally my thought. I mean, I'm just such an addict. I'm zero to 10. It's like your mom's still in that, duplex up north. Like I, I, I want to give my mom a huge home. She doesn't want to live in a huge home. She said that many times, but 

Netanya (1:00:44) 

Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (1:01:02) 

I want to give my mom the world. So it's like, yeah, I'm happy where I'm at, but I want to do everything for everyone. And if I don't, what have I really done with this opportunity? And so getting older, not only have I, am I learning to have faith in just making the effort, but also even if I don't perform well, and even if I don't put in full effort, I'm learning to be 

more forgiving towards myself. I can think of days in the last month, I can think of days a few years ago where I was tired that day, I was unmotivated, I could have written, I could have gone for a run, I could have called a friend, and I watched Netflix for an hour and a half. And that would have irritated me more like a year ago, but now it doesn't, because now I'm breathing and I... 

Netanya (1:01:47) 

Mm-hmm. 

Mmm... Yeah. 

Michael Carlson (1:02:00) 

You know what I mean? Like it's just different 

and so I don't know. I just connect with a lot with what you're saying and having these conversations. You know, sometimes I wonder about the podcasting format when people get into these really niche conversations. Because sometimes podcasts I listen to. I'm like, is this serving them or is it serving the viewer? And it's funny, because in this moment it's like. 

Well, this is helping me. So who cares? 

Netanya (1:02:31) 

Hahaha 

Well, I'm glad. And 

that's part of the goal. And I can't control. 

What the responses of a guest that I have on here the conversation we have anymore that I can control People listening, you know, there's gonna be people anything I do There's gonna be people that support me and love me and champion me which is amazing There's gonna be people that are indifferent that don't really care and can take a leave it and there's gonna be people That don't like me that don't understand me or that straight-up want to take me out Because of things that probably have nothing to do with me, right and that that what? 

Michael Carlson (1:03:09) 

Mm-hmm. 

Netanya (1:03:11) 

just said will always be true no matter which direction I go in. so you might as well keep doing the things that... right. and like I you know but but I do love 

Michael Carlson (1:03:13) 

Yeah. 

And yeah. 

And it's living with that. 

Netanya (1:03:25) 

It's always a gift when people get something out of this because I get something out of this if this was just like a side hustle for me and I didn't care immensely. I wouldn't do it. I can't I'm built that way. I can't do anything that I don't care about. I genuinely love doing this and I get so much out of it, whether it's the gift of listening to other people's stories or things that I learn or reminders that I need to hear. And so whenever anyone can get anything else out of it, 

Michael Carlson (1:03:39) 

Yeah. 

Netanya (1:03:52) 

That's a huge win for me. 

Michael Carlson (1:03:55) 

What's 

your favorite thing you get? And how many guests have you had on before me? Because you just started this, right? Yeah. 

Netanya (1:03:59) 

⁓ that I've rec... I did. Mm-hmm. So I've recorded 

several episodes that are not live yet. As of the moan of this recording, I posted episode four today. Yes. 

Michael Carlson (1:04:10) 

I see and you have more than that. So what's your 

What's your favorite thing you're getting out of it? 

Netanya (1:04:17) 

I think what I love the most, which is telling the truth and hearing other people tell the truth, that things are messy and hard and that's okay. And we're all learning and I, this always is true, the dichotomy of how beautiful my life is and how much I've been given and gifts and grown and love and all the things that are good and so much hard things and places I still struggle and where I have to practice what I preach. 

Michael Carlson (1:04:27) 

Mm-hmm. 

Mm-hmm. 

Netanya (1:04:44) 

Right? 

I was at work today and I was in tears. And I called, I had to call somebody else because I was like, hey, I'm, need to talk through this, you know? And so it's that we're all human, that we're all learning. 

Michael Carlson (1:04:48) 

Mm-hmm. 

Netanya (1:04:56) 

⁓ that I get to learn things like I just did with you about things that I don't talk about this in writing class. You know, and not that you wouldn't, but it's just not the platform for it. So getting to connect with people. I think my favorite thing is the hope that I have that someone will hear this and say, too, and feel less alone. 

Michael Carlson (1:05:02) 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Right, 

Okay, we'll ride on. Yeah, that's great. 

Netanya (1:05:16) 

But, 

well with that, I'm gonna end on that so that respect your time for where you're headed. ⁓ Is there anyone, if anyone wanted to find you or get in touch with you, is there a good place for that? Social media, email, anything that you, and you don't have to, if you wanted to share anything, I'm happy to do that. 

Michael Carlson (1:05:23) 

Yeah. 

No, yeah, that's great. 

Absolutely. Yes, my Instagram account, they can be my 460th person or something like that, which is a lot to me. It's kind of crazy. Social media is so freaking weird. I feel like I have 17 people in my life. So these people that have millions of followers, I don't know. Social media is terrible. But if you do want to use Instagram, 

Netanya (1:05:43) 

I'm 

Michael Carlson (1:06:02) 

I am Michael underscore E underscore Carlson. And if anyone wants to send me a message, that would be great. 

Netanya (1:06:06) 

Okay. 

Cool. 

And one last thing, will you tell me a little bit about the porch and the writing program? Because I would love to just share that with anybody. 

Michael Carlson (1:06:17) 

Yeah, happily. Yes, 

the porch is a. Locally started and operated nonprofit. It was started by two women, Susanna and Katie. Susanna felt and Katie McDougal and their essential goal was just to get people to hang out and talk about literature. What it's turned into is. 

⁓ It's a nonprofit that serves a lot of different parts of the community. So in the context that Natanya and I know each other, it's a class called Writing for Recovery, which I teach on Sunday nights from 5.30 to 7. And you can find all their different courses online at, believe it's the porchtn.com, but just Google the porch Nashville and you can get there. But they put on ⁓ a lot of events. They have a lot of classes. They do a lot of amazing work. So go to their website. 

Netanya (1:06:58) 

Mm-hmm. 

Michael Carlson (1:07:08) 

and check it out. And it's truly one of those things where like knowing that, you know, one of the co-founders quite personally and seeing what goes on behind the scenes, like it gives me more hope in nonprofits because some nonprofits are very ulterior and theirs is just like two women who have a passion for something beautiful and that's all there is to it. So yeah. 

Netanya (1:07:15) 

Mm-hmm. 

Yes. 

Yes, I agree with 

you. I am blessed to know them as well and I'm... I do. Uh-huh. Small world. But I will link to all that. Thank you for explaining and sharing. just, the more we can talk about stuff that helps people, especially in recovery, but really anywhere. And writing is one of those things that has helped me, obviously has helped you, and hopefully can help more people too. 

Michael Carlson (1:07:36) 

Yeah, you know them too, yeah, because your events and stuff. So yeah, they're wonderful. Yeah. 

Yeah, well, thanks for having me on. This is really charming. 

Netanya (1:07:57) 

You're welcome. Thank you so much for showing 

up and just for sharing that with me. That was really great. All right. All right. Take care. 

Michael Carlson (1:08:02) 

Yeah. All right. You have a good night. Bye-bye.