EP06: Compassionate Co-Parenting and Finding Closure After Loss with Scott Kindel

In this profoundly honest and transformative episode, Scott Kindel shares his personal story of navigating life's greatest challenges: co-parenting and grief. 

Scott details the essential work required to evolve his co-parenting relationship and drain the "swamp of resentment." Hear the crucial choice he made to prioritize his kids’ stability and emotional well-being over his own desire to be right. 

Beyond co-parenting, he discusses moving past the profound grief of his father’s passing, transforming a "swirling mass of emotion" into inner clarity. Discover the practices that helped him find inner peace and the role of radical acceptance in transforming his pain. 

This conversation is a masterclass in honest living, demonstrating how to put the ego aside and find the sweet spot where your work and personal life are in true alignment. Scott's story is about letting go, finding peace in the quiet moments, and understanding a fundamental truth: true closure always comes from within. 

Full show notes at https://www.netanyaallyson.com/episodes/06

Transcript

Netanya 0:00

There are moments in life that split us open. By unraveling sudden breaks or truths we didn't know we needed until we had no choice. This podcast is about those moments. It's about the turning points that change us. The things I wish someone had told me that I only understand in looking back. Come on in, you belong here, and we're gonna talk about all of it. I'm your host, Natanya, and this is what I didn't know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. So today's guest is Scott Kendall. Scott does a really great job in this episode of something that I'm always aiming for, which is talking about something that is true, that is hard, that we've gone through, that also involves other people without throwing them under the bus. And so we kind of begin the conversation with co-parenting and then move into the concept of getting closure. And that changes into a conversation around grief, which was pretty fascinating. So without further ado, here's Scott. All right, Scott Kendall, how are you doing?

Scott 1:34

I'm good. I'm good. Yeah.

Netanya 1:37

It is it's wonderful to see your face. Even though I only produce this in audio, we we do record via video. And to give you a little bit of a preface, because I don't know that I've actually explained this much in interviews. So this is, you know, I found a lot of healing through the the road that I took, which was through addiction, substance use, and abuse and recovery. So that was kind of my road into things. But there's a lot of people, friends, family, people that I've just met in the world that have found healing in talking about things that are hard through many other avenues. I was in, I was in Bali a couple years ago and at this retreat center with people that I didn't know at all, and I didn't say anything about addiction, and we're all we're all saying the same thing. So one of the things I want to start off with you that I'm curious about about your life that I don't know that we've talked about that much is co-parenting.

Scott 2:34

Oh geez. Yep. That's a big topic. Yeah.

Netanya 2:37

And specifically what I want to know is what that has been like for you in terms of co-parenting with someone who you may not always be on the same page with about how that works.

Navigating Conflict and Acceptance in Co-Parenting

Scott 2:50

It's been a journey. It's a continually progressing journey, I should say. I mean, in the very early days, because we we split, we separated, coming up on six years now. So it's been it's been a while. And so in those uh the the co-parenting relationship was completely different six years ago than it is now. And it honestly it took a very long time to get to a point where it wasn't ripe with conflict. And a lot of that um Yeah, because I don't wanna I don't wanna throw anybody under the bus here.

Netanya 3:25

No, totally understand.

Scott 3:27

You're looking at it from my journey, like my perspective. A lot of it was really coming to a point of acceptance over what I can control and what I can't. That age old serenity prayer thing.

Netanya 3:40

Yeah.

Scott 3:44

Figuring out, all right, what what are things from a co-parenting perspective that is like on the table, we talk about openly? What are things that I have to find I had to and have to continue to find acceptance over, and that being parenting style and discipline. And there's so many little nuanced things with raising kids that I think that was the big thing with it. In the early days when we were first kind of sorting this out, everything was a level red emergency, audio training stuff, and um, yeah, and that discipline thing and boundaries and all of that. And and really, I think that's the part that's gotten much easier for me over time here is truly figuring out all right, what are the things that I raise my hand about and be like, okay, no, let's talk about this. And what are things that it's like, you know what? She's gonna do her style. I'm gonna do mine. If there's things in her style that I don't agree with, then I focus my energy on countering that when I'm with the kids. Um, and then it's just yeah, and a lot of that was through trial and error. A lot of that, honestly, and that's the way most people learn, it's definitely the way that I learn, is by making mistakes.

Netanya 5:01

Yeah.

Scott 5:01

Is by going down the other path of like I'm gonna die on this hill, you know, over some small thing, you know. And it's just like I'm I don't I don't dig into that stuff anymore. Ultimately, I think the relationship has gotten a lot calmer and a lot more stable without that. And then, you know, the again the boundaries thing of like what in her life is my business, yeah, and what in my life is her business. Yeah. And really it's just got stuff that has to do with the kids. Outside of that, she can date whoever she wants to date. I can date whoever I want to date. The only time that it's even discussed is if it affects the kids.

Netanya 5:43

Yeah. Um I wanted to give you some props there for what you said in the beginning of not wanting to throw people under the bus because I'm also not interested in that. Yeah. And at the same time, I am interested in the truth and things that can help people and how to do that. How do we have real conversations when there's other people? You know, we don't live in a vacuum. So how do we tell the truth about things while also being respectful, right? Yeah. So I appreciate that.

Scott 6:10

Absolutely.

Netanya 6:11

But it you said it's changed a lot since what it used to be. What would you say is the biggest change from what it was like in the beginning to your current seat?

Scott 6:20

I think at the beginning, because it's almost like the one of the biggest things that that's changed, again, I'm looking at it from my my perspective and my side of it here, but the the biggest thing that has changed is a lot of personal work on my end to kind of drain this swamp of resentment. And um, because in those early days, I was angry, she was angry, I was hurt, she was hurt. And that carried on for multiple years. Uh, really, that first like three years after we split was contentious. It was like and a lot of that was really just from the echoes of the past. And it had the same like flavor to it. We'd we'd talk, get into an argument about it, this, that, or the other, whatever. And it had the same argument of like when we were living together and I left a dish in the sink. I kind of just like you know, like those kinds of just like the that and it was all those, it was it was a compilation. We're trying to figure out a way to work together in a different capacity where she has hurt feelings, I have hurt feelings, I have resentment, she has resentment. And so that was the biggest difference, is there was so much damage around that and injury around that, to that it's you'd have an innocuous conversation about this or the other, and then one of us would get triggered about a tone of voice or something small, and then it just de-evolve into an argument.

Netanya 7:51

So how do you, in terms of where you're at today, when you do run into those things where you're not on the same page, and it is something maybe you don't want to die on a hill about it, but it's something you feel very strongly about. How do you sort of find grace for her or for yourself?

Scott 8:08

Well, so I yeah, I'll break it up into two chunks here. So for one, like how do I approach it and how do I find compassion? Because ultimately that's the biggest thing with it is recognizing what I know and what I don't know. Um, because it's also I'm hearing things secondhand most of the time. It's a six-year-old telling me this. So it's like, uh I gotta take this with a grain of salt. You know, this isn't the associated press giving me a solid fact-based rundown of the situation. Fair. And so approaching it with that openness and not in an accusatory way, you know, of just saying, like, hey, benefit of the doubt here, but I want you to know what she's saying. And and then basically it's just approaching it with boundaries. And that but even still, it's really the only time that it really concerns me is if it starts going into the territory of safety. And anything beyond that, it's different parenting styles. And and it's just it's recognizing through I I put extensive research and developments on this trial and error of like um of trying to control or have her parenting style match mine. And and it's like, no, how's that going? It doesn't go well. I had to try it about a hundred times, though, before I really understood. It's like, no, this you know, because there's a thousand different ways to go about approaching an issue with a kid. And I'm no writer than she might be. And so it's like, I have my beliefs and she has hers, but really that's the biggest part of it is is just letting go. Letting go and and and asking yourself what is actually important.

Netanya 9:56

Yeah. Do you ever get concerned or worried about or just consider kids getting mixed signals or mixed information?

Scott 10:04

Sure. Uh yeah. I mean the mixed signals part of it, or um I mean, because it can get confusing. Like they're they're ultimately the ones that are kind of in the in the middle getting tugged back and forth on a lot of this stuff. So Yeah, I mean sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, go ahead.

Netanya 10:24

I I was a kid of of divorced parents, and so I'm remembering being young, and essentially mine was a little bit I don't know if it's more dramatic, but like it was like I was one person at one house and one person at another house. Like everything was different. Even income levels and what my days were like. It was I I had to sort of chameleon back and forth of like this is who I am and this is what's acceptable, and these are the rules here. And then this weekend it changes. And I obviously turned out to be an okay human, I think.

Scott 10:57

Yeah, I'd say so.

Netanya 10:59

But I'm just I'm curious if if if it's just something you're ever concerned about or how to counteract that when it's like you want to leave room for what she's teaching because there's value in multiple ways. It's no different than if you if I'm training a staff member, I'll have them follow more than one person. Like if they're training with me, and then this person that because you get different styles and you can kind of build your own. Now kids are a little bit different, but there can be value in more than one thing as well.

The Importance of Boundaries

Scott 11:25

Oh yeah. No, absolutely. It's it's a lot of it is I have an ironclad rule that I have followed since day one. And even still, I'm sure I and now just even hearing hearing myself say it, there's probably been some vibes that were picked up, but you know, I don't throw her under the bus with the kids. Like I could be vibratingly pissed off with her about something. And I do everything I can to shield the kids from that because I just I know how much something like that can affect a kid. And so I try and kind of echo that forward with benefit of the doubt for their mom, like when they're talking about a rule that might be different at her house than here, when it's like, well, you're here right now, you know? And um, so I try to approach it with curiosity. Like if they're telling me something that's happening, I dig into it with them and and try to be curious of the why behind something. And then it's also going back to that original question of compassion and grace for her. So let's say, because this is one that I know a lot of parents have dealt with of like mom is yelling at me all the time. And I'm like, all right, well, when was the last time she yelled at you? It's like about, I don't know, two months ago.

Netanya 12:42

Yeah.

Scott 12:42

And then you dig into it and it's like, well, I think we define all the time a little bit different here. All the time means all day, every day. And then even still, there's times when like I'll blow up at the kids sometimes. And then that's it doesn't happen very often, but it happens. And a lot of times there's so much nuance and circumstance around any type of an issue. And so it's like, all right, what do I know versus what do I not know?

Netanya 13:05

Yeah, that's a great point with the circumstance. I'm curious if you feel like we talked about giving her respect and not talking badly about her in front of the kids or anything. Do you feel like that's reciprocated?

Scott 13:19

Uh no, I don't.

Netanya 13:21

Fair.

Scott 13:21

And that and that honestly is one of the was was one of the hardest things. I think to a degree, yes. You know, and I d and again, I back to the original goal. I don't want to throw anybody under the bus here. But No. I don't think it is. But that's also another acceptance piece of this isn't a sporting event where we're keeping score. The reason I aim to have that ideal where that goal is not because it feels good. Or not for anything with me, it's for them. And so it's like, how does that go change if it's not necessarily always reciprocated? And it doesn't. So yeah, I mean, and that that was a big point of contention for those first early years. And that was also just very frustrating. There's a lot of things about co-parenting, I think that's the big part to dig into that are wholly unsatisfying.

Netanya 14:13

Like what? Please tell me more. I'm so interested.

Scott 14:17

Well, it's just like you have these moments of well, it's it's ripe with that. Of all right, do I want to um do I want to be happy or do I want to be right?

Netanya 14:30

Mm-hmm.

Scott 14:31

Type of stuff.

Netanya 14:32

Age old question.

Scott 14:32

You know? Where yeah, where it's it's like, I know I'm likely right in this situation. And and I think honestly, that was one of the biggest things for me to own when we were together in our relationship, is I would just you know, I'd present it like an attorney to a to a to a trial. You know, like I'm going to outline 13 different points of evidence here for why I am right and you are wrong.

Netanya 14:58

Yeah.

Scott 14:59

And then and it would be this concise argument that I would just sharpen to the point of a samurai sword between the hours of 1 and 2 a.m. Um lying in my bed. Um and then, you know, expectation never met reality, and more resentment builded. And so I I think that's the biggest thing with co-parenting, is there has to be an undertone of like altruism and putting my ego to the side and being willing to um um yeah, be the I I don't want to say be the bigger person because she has her perspective and I have mine, but it's it's like, all right, it's I have to, in a very unsatisfying way, keep my eye on the prize, which is ultimately, you know, the kids. Like that's like their stability and their world is more important than my little fragile ego. You know? So it's like um and that's the you know the unsatisfying part of it, because and I think that's where so much of the resentment built in those early days is um and and this was wrapped into so many of the different parts of my addiction and mental health stuff for years is that idea of this castle on the hill of I'm gonna be so happy when I reach that place. And there's gonna be some magical day when the clouds will part and she'll genuinely apologize for all of this stuff. And then that day never comes, and you have to be okay with that, you know.

Netanya 16:38

Yeah.

Scott 16:38

Um yeah, this is the the trials and tribulations of expectation.

Netanya 16:43

Well, in any relationship, right? We always want they use the term closure, right? That like this is all wrapped in a bow and we got closure on the thing. And sometimes for many reasons, you can't get closure. You don't you don't get that full circle moment where it comes back around and they say, You were right, you know?

Scott 17:03

Yeah.

Netanya 17:04

And you have to kind of find your way through that of the putting the bow on it. This was what it was. What it what can I take from this that was good? What lessons were here from me? And how do I keep going?

Scott 17:15

Well, yeah, and then it's like that element of like so true closure comes from within. It's it's not an external prize that you'll find buried in a treasure chest somewhere. It's now granted there might be external things you can initiate and do that will help with that journey, but yeah, I mean, what's what's the line between closure and acceptance? Yeah, now they're nestled right up next to each other.

On Grief and Acceptance After Loss

Netanya 17:39

Yeah. Yeah, well, and especially if closure is, you know, if the person is no longer with us or situations like that where they cannot, you you cannot have that last conversation for whatever reason.

Scott 17:52

Yeah, no, I've had a lot of that. Because um, with grief and loss and be it um a job or a friendship or a relationship or a person. My my dad passed away last year, and so there was a lot to process with that. And then even just friends and people and co-workers, there's been a lot of a lot of death over the years. And I'd had that thought the other day. This is like one of those I'm doing dishes in the kitchen, and it rumbled in the back of my head of like, all right, if I am living in a place of full acceptance in life, full acceptance of what I can control and what I can't, how is there then any space left for regret? Where it's like, yeah, I can like anytime my mind is spinning from a place of regret, because I have everybody has that. And then especially with my dad, he he he was diagnosed with cancer in like April of 2023, and they're like, all right, we think he could probably go uh a good three years. Um that's what our estimates are. And then he was gone in May of 2024, you know, so just a year later. Right. And and so that was the regret part there is all the conversations I wish I could have had, and knowledge I wish I could have gained, and stories that I wanted to hear, and all of those different things. But it's like ruminating about that. I suppose there might be a little microscopic silver lining of living for today that could come out of it. But 99.9% of it is just a complex way of torturing myself that doesn't produce anything. It's the same as like daydreaming about winning the lottery. Like, what does it actually produce? Yeah.

Netanya 19:41

Yeah.

Scott 19:41

It doesn't change anything.

Netanya 19:43

Yeah.

Scott 19:44

You know? It's just uh I mean, hell, that's so much of life is just acceptance.

Netanya 19:50

Agreed.

Scott 19:50

So much.

Netanya 19:51

And so how would you yeah, and it's it's sometimes it's just a bitch. Like it just it takes me a while, or I'm not there yet, or I wish I was farther along than I actually am. And then you have to accept that. Yeah. I have to accept that I'm not farther along in acceptance. How would you say what has been the most helpful for you in navigating the grief after the loss of your father in terms of processing it or closure as much as you could get from that space?

Scott 20:23

I would say, I mean, the number one things that that helps through that process is community, is other people is talking about it, journaling, processing my own thoughts and feelings and everything around it. And then so it's it's it it started as this mountain. It was almost like a heap and a landfill where the different I guess you could talk call it the stages of grief, you know, that applies to it. It's just a swirling mass of emotion. And as you give it time, and as you shine a light on it, and as you take a step back and view it and process, you know, this this giant awkward, you know, bleeding tower of Pisa-esque pile of garbage gets reduced to this little mound. And that's the mound that kind of always will that I suspect will always stay with me. And it's just like, you know what, I wish he was here.

Netanya 21:18

Yeah.

Scott 21:27

And I had done so, you were talking about how you did a a retreat in Bali. So I I do it wasn't nearly as uh I shouldn't even say glamorous. That is pretty glamorous. It wasn't as glamorous as that. But uh yeah, so I do every year um a retreat in Cumberland Furnace, Tennessee, which is kind of out near the EU, right? So it's like an hour and a half outside of Nashville there.

Netanya 21:54

Okay, cool.

Scott 21:55

Um and uh so it's a program out there with Where it's basically a retreat style treatment program. You know, they have a 30-day or 90-day or thing, but they they do these like week intensives. And about 15 years ago, they started doing kind of an off-label intensive for people that work in behavioral health that are like leaders of treatment programs to come out for a week and do their own work.

Netanya 22:21

I love this so much.

Scott 22:23

It's really cool. And I've been involved with it ever since, you know, since the early days here. And so it's basically once a year, myself and the same group of guys in that original group from way back when we all descend upon this little sleepy part of Tennessee to do like in-depth psychodrama and like trauma work. Um, and it we're not focusing on pomp and circumstance and ego and networking and like any of that stuff. It's it's just a recognition of like, or I didn't in order to take our team and our clients and people that we're trying to help farther down this road, we first have to go farther down that road ourselves. Yeah. And that was one of the things, you know. So when I went to it the last time was February of this year. So at that point, it's still eight, eight, nine months, something like that, after my dad had passed away. I was carrying a lot of that with me still. Have you ever done psychodrama before?

Netanya 23:20

No, I have not. Please tell me more. I'm so curious about everything.

Scott 23:25

It's super intense. So, like the real basic, like intro version of it would be the empty chair exercise, where it's like, let's say you have unresolved things that you wish you could say to a a loved one who had passed away. And it's like, all right, I want you to imagine that that person is sitting in that empty chair right in front of you. What would you say to them? And that's basically the idea, but then it's it can also, in a place of like trust and openness, you can have bad people portray the role of that person. And a lot of times what they'll do is they'll have you switch. So basically, and and again, this is a group of people that I've known for over a decade.

Netanya 24:12

Yeah.

Scott 24:13

You know, so I have implicit openness and trust with them. And so it's basically a close friend of mine sitting in front of me playing the role of my dad. And then me playing the role of me, and us having that conversation. And they would have me switch. So it's like, all right, I'd say something, and then she would have me switch and like literally get up and move over and sit in that chair. Now I'm playing the role of my dad, responding to my own question.

Netanya 24:41

Oh.

Scott 24:42

You know, and it's like that back and forth.

Netanya 24:44

Yeah.

Scott 24:45

Super intense.

Netanya 24:46

I bet it is.

Scott 24:48

Super.

Netanya 24:50

But I can see it being massively powerful.

Scott 24:53

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean, it's really, really cool. And that was basically one of the many things that was kind of talked about with that was it was a question of when when do you sense my presence? You know, like when do you feel like I'm there and this is you know, my dad. And it's like, and that was my instinctual thing with it, was just in the moments of calm. When the moments of quietude, of meditation, of being in nature, and those those that couple of minutes between different things and meetings of just like leaning back and taking a sip of coffee. And that that that like was this almost awakening moment of just calm that kind of washed over me from that. And honestly, that's probably the closest thing that I found to closure on his death was just the like everything's gonna be okay.

Netanya 25:55

Yeah.

Scott 25:56

And there's like an element to him that's that's here with me. And I got tons of pictures of him up on this. I know the people can't see, but I'll show you at least.

Netanya 26:05

Oh man. That's a lot, yeah.

Scott 26:07

I got a lot of pictures up over here, but there he is holding my my sister when she was a baby, and there he is holding William about the same age. So I I surround myself with that stuff.

Netanya 26:18

Yeah.

Closure, Connection, and the Healing Power of Writing

Scott 26:20

Like I hold on to so many of the good memories and vibes and things that made him him. And also that's the great thing about it, of me, you know, being in recovery, and like I kind of became the bedrock for that last year of his life. I was the person he leaned on the most. I was the one at the doctor's appointments. I was the one, you know, helping him getting settled into assisted living and hospice and like, oh hey, I need you know, this or that, or I was blessed with the ability and the opportunity to show up for him in those in that final year. You know, which I think gift.

Netanya 26:59

Yeah.

Scott 27:00

Oh yeah. Like I would not have been able to do that if it was 15 years earlier. Right. You know?

Netanya 27:07

One of the things that has helped me that I've started doing, and I think I started this in recovery because it it's sort of in the step process where you're writing things, and I wrote a letter to someone who was no longer here that I had some things to say to. And so I've started I've started doing that more frequently, which is whether someone has passed on. Like I mean, I've done this with from childhood things all the way to someone that for whatever reason, I can't have that conversation in real life, right? For for any reason, whether it causes more harm than good or all those things. And I've just started writing truths and letters and just letting myself sob or feel all right. Uh, it's so great.

Scott 27:49

It's so it's so powerful. I mean, honestly, like uh the amount, and you know, going back to the co-parenting part of it, the amount of letters that I have written that I've never sent, for every one communication, there's probably a hundred that I just like vented onto a page and then like, all right, delete. Or it's a powerful thing, you know, of of really the perspective from journaling. I downplayed it for so long.

Netanya 28:16

Yeah.

Scott 28:17

But just you take it from this nebulous like cloud that's like your head is is adrift in to something concise that's sitting in front of you. And it almost makes something imaginary then real. And then you put it down, you go grab a cup of coffee, take a step back, and then read it again, and it's like, oh, all right, now you have perspective. And that carries over to so many different parts of life.

Netanya 28:42

Well, and I think how how much I have realized through that experience that I didn't know that I was carrying. And giving voice to it for me is a way of like getting it physically out of my body. Um so I don't I don't have to walk with this anymore. It's here, I got it out of me, I've acknowledged it, you know, in the processing of it. But it's just I I didn't know I was still carrying that. And like I said, sometimes it's been, you know, the the what I was talking about before was specific letters to people, but sometimes I will pick like a topic if I just am in a knot about something. So say it's it could be a person, you know, if I wrote someone's name at the top of a piece of paper, sometimes it's a topic like career or money or just whatever I'm in a knot about at that particular time. And I will free write on what memories I have around that thing. So if it's a person, say, you know, I'm mad at my mom or something, kind of writing about like what am I mad about? Where do I remember this? Where has this happened before? And getting it all out and being like, man, I did not remember that some incident when I was 10 where I dropped ice cream on the ground, you know, something like that still lives in me. And I know in theory that we, you know, you carry the six-year-old Scott and the 15-year-old Scott and the 25-year-old Scott. You know, those all still live in you. But when you sort of get to that point where you you have a recollection of something that you didn't realize still lived in there that vividly, it's kind of mind-blowing how much we carry.

Scott 30:12

Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, it's the stuff that we carry, and then it's also like that's where in my morning journaling practice here, a lot of it is in the processing of anxiety. It's taking something, and it's the same idea. It's like I wake up and how am I feeling this morning? You know what? I'm feeling stressed and anxious. Why? And like asking myself that question and kind of like peeling away the layers of the onion of like, oh, you know what? I have this work deadline that I didn't meet two days ago and it's hanging over me. All right, I'm gonna take a look at my calendar and I'm gonna proactively schedule an hour here, an hour there. That'll give me enough space and time to get this thing done. And I oftentimes it's the same thing with just like me being short with my kids, or I'll have a certain feeling after a meeting or something like that. And it's kind of identifying and drawing these lines between emotions and what we're carrying. And stuff happens with work all the time. Where I'll leave a meeting that like on paper it went really well. So it's like, why am I feeling all anxious after this? And it's like, you know what? This brings up this feeling of self-doubt that I got from when I did a similar project a couple of years ago. And it's like, all right, well, why is that there? And and and that's it's like spelunking, you know? It's like you put on put on your little forehead lamp and dive into the cave, and you get down to the base of it and you realize, oh, there's not that much there. Okay. You know? And and then you're able to kind of breathe, reprocess. That's one of my favorite quotes, is like the quickest tool for countering anxiety is action.

Netanya 31:53

Mm-hmm.

Scott 31:55

And just that simple task of like, you know what, I'm gonna carve out an hour to do this tomorrow.

Netanya 32:00

Yeah.

Scott 32:01

And it's like, okay.

Netanya 32:03

Well, and I love that, yeah, I love that so much because I am, I have learned enough about myself over the years to know that if I am avoiding something, that's such a flag for me. And I don't want to call it a red flag. It's just like an alert of like, hey, as soon as I'm avoiding something, a lot of times it means I don't know how to do the thing. And so I or I'm missing information or I don't feel confident in addressing or dealing with it. And so I keep putting it off instead of looking at it and going, hey, like what is it that you don't know and how do we work through it? And so now when I do that, I notice and sort of stop and interrupt the pattern and go, okay, why why are we avoiding this? And what do I need to do so that I can face it and move through the thing, right?

Scott 32:44

And that right there is such a big part of it, too, of like avoidance, like the why behind avoidance is is like, all right, well, I'm not gonna fail if I don't try.

Netanya 32:54

Yeah.

Scott 33:01

Yeah. Yeah. No. Just avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid. Yeah.

Netanya 33:05

And like put my head in the sand so I don't have to face again, truth, which is which is why I created this, why we're having this conversation, is because I want to talk about the things that I didn't have context for, I didn't have language for for many years. Nobody taught me how to do that. Right. And so in getting to the space where I now know how to do that, I've become much more even things like if I have to give a speech or something in uh, you know, say in c in college, you used to have to give presentations, right? I would, I would pray that nobody called on me for, you know, and so you'd sit there, say it was like three days of presentations. I would just be like, please don't pick me. I wouldn't raise my hand, I would hide as much as I could. And just and then I started to realize that I just dreaded that. I spent three days dreading the thing that I'm going to have to do anyway. And so what I started to do was she would say, Does anyone want to go first? And I would go and just like rip off the and then and then I have three days of like, oh, I'm done. No, exactly.

Confronting Avoidance and Anxiety

Scott 34:08

And that's so much of like mental, like the work of doing the work is ultimately making our minds more efficient. Yeah. And like, what can I do to mitigate and reduce the amount of wasted energy and worry? Like how much if I were able to somehow formulate all of my worry and anxiety and stress onto a pie chart, it's like, how many of those things actually came from reality? And how many of those things were actually benefited by that anxiety? And it's like, that's a tiny, tiny slice.

Netanya 34:40

Well, how much did you make up?

Scott 34:42

Oh yeah.

Netanya 34:43

How many things did you make up that there's no facts to support? And you have now projected into some potential future reality that doesn't actually have anything to back it.

Scott 34:53

Aaron Powell That's the age old, you know, perception is nine tenths of reality. And um yeah, I've um so many times lost sleep over some perception or dreading some meeting, or you know, because I'll do these these high-pressure presentations to um big organizations, and um I just have this rock in my stomach for multiple days, and I'll spend six, seven hours preparing intensely for this thing that I go in and it ends up being 15 minutes of casual conversation. And like, why in the hell did I pickle my insides over this? Um Yeah. So it's it's just like, all right, yeah, how do I mitigate this? How do I see things for what they are? Uh you know, and rip the band-aid off, as you're saying.

Netanya 35:49

Um so I'm gonna change topics for a second because I want to talk a little bit more. I want to get to the point where we talk a little bit more about what you do in the world these days. But I want to start with something that I just had in my brain and I don't know that I've talked about a lot. So you get to be the bearer of a thing that was in my head that hasn't come out yet. Do it. But it leads into doing things in recovery. And I want to talk about service. So one of the things that I get I get a little feisty about sometimes within 12-step programs is that there's sort of a very particular way that people can give back within a program like that. I mean, you can be a sponsor, you can um chair a meeting, you know, there's certain certain structured ways or positions or things that you can do that's considered service, right? Um and there have been times where I've gotten dirty looks for my take on that, which is that not only do I think that that's not true, right? That that's not the only way to give back. You can give back within a program, whichever program you do, you know, but I also think you can give back bigger within just the context of recovery. Maybe it has nothing to do with the program that you're in. I worked in recovery for several years. You have done the same, or just other things in recovery that are not about whatever program that you're in, that's bigger than that. And you can go even bigger, which is I was, you know, I worked in a restaurant for several years. And so I'm not in the quote context of recovery or a structured program or even a recovery anything. But um, I would find myself, I was always, everybody always knew that I was in recovery. That's not a secret. Um, and I would find myself eaning something at the end of the night at like 11 p.m. and someone would come find me and be like, hey, can I can I talk to you? You know, about this thing. And it would be like, I think I'm I think I'm drinking too much, or you know, whatever. And so now I'm I'm just out in the world, right? Sort of being a ninja and living from that space. But I was curious about your take on service, how to give back, and um what's helped you the most here, kind of pull whatever thread you want from this. But you obviously, you know, have also worked in recovery and then taken that to another level now with with the business that you have. So I just wanted to know what you think about that.

Scott 38:05

Oh, it's a broad one.

Netanya 38:07

I know.

Scott 38:08

Like service work. Well, the thing I I remember um I had a mentor years ago, and this is a fairly common 12-step saying, but it's service work starts at home. And so that's one of the first things I think about is me not being reactive when my kids are bugging me.

Netanya 38:29

Yeah.

Scott 38:30

Is a form of service work. Like right now. I mean, like, Clara's playing loudly in the background, and I have this little earworm of wanting to turn off a microphone and be like, oh, go play in another room.

Netanya 38:44

Yeah.

The Broader Concept of Service in Recovery

Scott 38:44

And it's like, no, like yeah, she sits. And I'll let her play and let her do her thing. I don't think you care that much. I don't know. I don't. Thank you for good. But it's it's like those little moments. Those little moments of like stepping up, putting my ego to the side, leading with kindness and compassion and understanding. Um, so that's one of the first parts of it. Those little acts. And and beyond that, I mean, because service work, service is also just to my fellow man. It's just to like going through Costco the other day, and there's a guy that was struggling to unload this giant workbench off of the shelf onto his cart. So it's running over there and helping him load it. Sure. It's it's those those little things, but like service work is broad. It's really broad. Because there's like the organic ones, like I have sponsees, you know, I have people that I mentor and that I work with, but then there's also just a standard of ethics that I carry myself with and all of the work that I do and how I spend my time and everything else that's kind of a form of service work.

Netanya 39:53

So I think I get so something I will say, I don't carry sponsees. And it is it kind of goes back to that. I like to use um like the metaphor of I like to use the metaphor of the band. No, all good. So I like to use the metaphor of a band, which is like sometimes you're the drummer, sometimes you're the lead singer. Everyone has their own seat and it's all necessary and relevant, right? And I may not be a good drummer or lead singer, or I just don't want to do it, or it's not my passion, right? And so part of where um where I've had that sort of feeling that has not gone well with other people is that I choose not to sponsor people because I um it's not my strong suit. I like like personally working with people that are new in recovery, I think my strong suit's a little bit people that have had some time and I can work into this kind of conversation with this because this is what I love and this is where I I shine a little bit more. And it drains me and depletes me. And I've met other people that are the opposite, right? They love newcomers, they love that, you know, they love this space. And I don't think there's a right or wrong, but I just I'm trying to work on breaking that stigma that there's one right way to do this, or that if you don't do it the way that everybody says you should, that you are wrong or bad, or somehow doing this like incorrectly.

Scott 41:21

No, no, exactly. And then this is also like your personal choice with it, where it's like I love sponsoring people.

Netanya 41:28

Yeah.

Scott 41:29

I love, you know. But then even still, not all sponsees are newcomers.

Netanya 41:34

True. Yep.

Scott 41:36

You know, so it's it's like, yeah, but it's it's uh to your point, it's figuring out what is your strengths, what fills the tank, what depletes it.

Netanya 41:43

Yeah.

Scott 41:44

And then most importantly, asking the question of why does it deplete it? You know, where because that there's so many different just like service positions and structure within 12 step. And I've done a lot of them. Yeah. Where it's like event planning and representing the group at like bigger, more, you know, regional meetings and stuff. And and it's like I uh yeah, I've I've learned through each one of them that all right, I've challenged myself, I've tried something new. Yeah. I just don't like it.

Netanya 42:15

Yeah.

Scott 42:15

And it's like, and that's okay. But I could hold space and talk with a guy who's struggling about something and offer perspective. I could do that all day. Yes. And that's right.

Netanya 42:26

So I will say it's interesting to be able to be like, I will mentor people. I just don't hold the consistent like commitment of sponsorship. And I'm currently more interested in building things.

Scott 42:39

And um it's also an issue of bandwidth and boundaries.

Netanya 42:42

Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Scott 42:43

And I'm like, there's like I because I've I've known people that are like, I have a rule that every time someone asks me to be their sponsor, I say yes, no matter what. And it's like, no, I'm not gonna do that. Because I have to, you know, and ultimately it's questioning the why, but it's like, I've got, you know, I'm a business owner and I'm a dad. And um it and I think it also goes back to that base thing of like, um, I remember asking myself this question a handful of years ago when I was experiencing burnout, of like, at what point in my life did I convince myself that self-care was optional? You know, where it's like, no, I can push that shit to the side. I don't need to go to the gym today. I don't gotta work on myself. And it's like, no, dude, this is not optional. Yeah. You've seen what happens if you choose direction B here. And so it's also a point, uh, I mean, hell, in any recovery program, not just twelve step stuff. Honesty is the foundation of it all. So it's like if I'm honestly like at my bandwidth and I take on another spawn C when I have no room to do it the right way, am I really doing that person a service? Right. Yes. I'm not I'm probably doing more harm than good. Yeah. returning phone calls and I'm distracted and half assing at when we're meeting. So it's like no, it's yeah, it's it's that's just kind of like living in reality.

Netanya 44:09

Yeah. And I think that my I've changed over time. My life changed. Where what what jobs I have had has changed. And how, like I said at one point I worked full time in recovery and I found that I was all recovery all the time and I couldn't turn it off. And for me at that time and the job I had and the way in which that was going so I was already working full time but then running events, which is all the time that I'm not at work, I'm also running events. And then trying to take care of my own recovery and going and I was just I was so burnt out. It was not funny, you know, and I was like this is costing me a lot this trying to to do this for so I had to step back and I took some time away from all of that. Not recovery itself but the like working it sort of thing and to give myself a new perspective. And it was some time like not it wasn't like you know a month. It was a while and to give myself how how do I want to I'm gonna come back to this like I was never that was never a question. It was just I have to come back to this and reapproach this in a way that I can thrive in the things that I'm the best at and I love the most, which is currently building things, talking about things and I love finding what didn't work for me or what hasn't worked for me and solving that problem. How do I how do I make this better? How do I create something where there's a hole that I wish I could have had that I didn't have and it doesn't mean to like you know take away from anything that's already there because there's so much good stuff that's there. I just think there's I have a lot of questions. I'm like what can we do here and why didn't that work you know?

Scott 45:43

Yeah.

Netanya 45:44

And that's kind of what drives me on how do I how do I keep creating in recovery and not cost me meat.

Navigating Burnout within a Career in Recovery

Scott 45:50

Yeah well then that sounds like you know going back to acceptance. It's it's like acceptance of reality, of where you're at. And I have had that that kind of moment a number of times over the years where it's like I need to take a step back and breathe and kind of figure out how I can uh proactively design how I'm spending my energy in a way that it's not dejecting or frust as frustrating or you know because that was ultimately I was running treatment programs for years. And and that felt like there's the the the mythology of uh Sisyphus. Yes a great one the man doomed for all eternity to push a boulder up a hill. And that was how it would feel because oversee this broad team of people that are doing very intense, very emotional difficult work. Whenever my phone rang and it was a work call, it wasn't somebody calling to say, hey, I'm really happy with you. You're doing a great job. Thank you. You know I just wanted to reach out and see how you're doing. It was never that you know it was this thing is fucked. Can you please unfuck this for me? And uh and that's like I I loved that part of my life and I loved a a lot of that work but you know for a a person such as I who so easily will toss my own self-care out the window it was a vicious combination where you know I loved the work um but the things were there was a never ending flow of stuff popping up. And so like I I would very easily work 80 hours a week you know and just yeah from the crack of dawn until 10 p.m without even thinking about it until I I got to that point where I started seeing those classic signs of burnout of just not caring as much and not showing up and investing. And I'd sit there at my computer and then realize it's like wow I've done maybe 10 minutes of work over the last two hours. And so I had to take a step back.

Netanya 48:03

So I actually I'm I'm asking because I generally don't know.

Scott 48:07

Yeah.

Netanya 48:08

At what point did you like transition from that position into what you do now? Sure. When did that happen? How? Like what was your motivation and how did that go for you?

Scott 48:18

Because I don't know I mean it was a staged thing. So the the the organization I was working with, you know, they had um in like 2022 undergone a leadership change. So basically the CEO of the company built an investing group and then bought the organization. And and then in about at that point there was always talk of expansion of like okay how can we take the great parts of this program and do it on a bigger scale with a different style. And so with that came a new corporate structure came a reorganization of it and it came the need for a financial person. And to a degree that's a bit of my background. That's also just something I've been inherently good at for a long time was doing the budgets and the pro forma and the business planning and that kind of stuff. And so this opportunity came across and this was like to transition from you know at that point I was executive director of this this whole treatment program and transition into this financial position within the parent company. And I was you know again I was that I was at that place of burnout where it's like I want to keep working but I was longing for a hey it's 5 p.m yeah you know we're turning off the phone and um something with more predictability and and kind of stability to it. So I transitioned to that role in 2023 and kind of passed the keys over for this treatment program which I'd taken from inception to that point.

Netanya 49:59

Right, yes, yes.

Transitioning Roles and Finding Balance and Flexibility in Work

Scott 50:00

It was very, very hard but it was also the right thing to do. I mean it was basically it was it was putting my baby into a little bassinet and then like putting it up for adoption you know and then and then trying to help that next person to take care of it. And then so I did that financial role for probably about a year. And in the middle of that that's also when my dad passed away um that's when I I moved um out in a very rural area to the city. And so it was a lot of change going on with life and and basically worked to help launch this other treatment program. And uh that was the thing after about because I needed I would say three to six months of that to deal with everything going on with my dad and his final days and all of the life changes. And then I I got but after that I got to this point where it's like I'm clocking in, I'm doing the work um and I would maybe talk to two humans the entire day and the rest of it I I'm working on spreadsheets and gathering data and doing reports and stuff like that. And it's like okay now did I take this transition and this to this other position because it's something I really wanted to do or is because I was burnt out. And really a lot of it was because I was burnt out and and I needed that. I needed that but then I started missing elements of the work I was doing before and the more client care and working with people and developing programming and things, you know? And so I really it it came to this point of there's nothing within the organization here that I could say transition to. And at that point I've been with the organization eight and a half, nine years, which like in this space is like in the behavioral health world very long time. You know and and so it was just time. It like it became obvious to me and again I was at a place in life where I could take a step back. And so it's like okay it's kind of that that age old leap in the net will appear type of a thing. Yeah. And so I moved on from that organization. That was actually right about a year ago so it was October 2024. And when I did I you know posted the little lovely social media thing just like trying to summarize all the gratitude and everything that I was feeling and my plan at that point was like I'm gonna take three months to to just breathe and reorganize all these different puzzle pieces and see what I want to do. It's like do I want to work in behavioral health anymore? Like do I want to just freaking do something completely different. And I'd I had explored all right you know healthcare is a broad tent. There's a lot of different administrative or leadership roles I could do there. Or do I want to just leave all of this behind and be a writer? I explored that. I always loved writing so I joined a little like writing group in my area here and started doing that and um playing music again more. You know, I've been playing music since I was a kid and and just being creative. And um so anyway I within two days of putting that little lovely Facebook post on, I'd had seven job offers from people just reaching out to me like, hey I saw your posts. And so that was my line with them. It's like no I'm gonna take time for myself here, you know, and I'm not interested in working with another organization right now. Thank you. I'm very flattered and and for a handful of them it was like well what do you think about doing consulting work for us then? So it has a little bit more freedom to it and we'd still love to just have you involved even if it's just on a really part-time basis. And I was like okay sure I'll give that a go. And so I still ended up taking a bit of that time but started doing some of this consulting work on the side.

Netanya 53:50

Yeah.

Scott 53:51

And then after a month or so I I started putting a little more time and energy into it and realized for one I really like it where it's it's like I've I've just years of working in this field there are so many little nuanced weird pieces of knowledge that I've gained not just from like the clinical side of it but it was you know from the financial side of of doing that role for the last year. It was the licensing and credentialing side of it it's accreditation and like standards of ethics and policies and procedures and staff development and building HR departments and you know insurance billing. Like insurance is freaking I don't have to tell you you know it's like it's broken. It's real fucked up in a lot of ways in the US and so there's a lot of like nuanced very niche things that you have to know in order to kind of make any sense of it. And so I had these like just from trial by fire over the years just this very uh specific set of skills that I had developed you know um and consulting lends itself really nicely to that you know and so then I started pointing more time and energy towards that and this just awesome business like unfolded before me. So now I you know I have a whole team of people that I work with that each have their own specialties and kind of fill the gaps of what I don't have. And you know we do everything from um helping it really it's in three broad categories. It's helping people start new treatment programs. It's helping people expand or pivot existing treatment programs, which I'm seeing a lot of today with the state of Medicaid and the uncertainty that's out there is like adding different service lines and working with private health insurance instead and you know and then it's also management consulting. So it's programs that are well established and are doing okay but they need to be streamlined and mentored and that's part of it I really like I shouldn't say the most but of one of the most is mentoring people that are in these kind of leadership roles of like what I did where they're they're in the hopper. Yeah you know they are in the thick of the shit. And it's like all right how do I kind of help them navigate that and avoid crashing into that brick wall that I crashed into. So that's that's basically it. Yeah. So I mean I work all over the country. I I think I'm working with like 10 different programs at this point here from you know little mom and pop uh methadone clinic in Iowa to residential psych facility in Kansas to you know an intensive outpatient program. I'm actually the executive director of an intensive outpatient program in Houston right now.

Netanya 56:38

That's awesome. I'm not surprised but it's still awesome. In Houston?

Scott 56:42

That's great. In Houston yeah so I I work in Texas. I've gotten to know the state of Texas very well.

Netanya 56:49

Really?

Scott 56:50

Yeah.

Netanya 56:51

Do you does there a lot with crossing state lines and stuff is there a lot of paperwork and different rules and stuff that you need to know across state lines to do what you do?

Scott 57:02

Oh yeah you know each of each state has its own nuances. A lot of the the baseline stuff is the same but really where the the difference is from state to state is in state regulation and their different requirements and their way of doing things but well there's a there's a thread that kind of goes between all of it. So it's I've learned a lot.

Netanya 57:22

Um figure You're like a ninja really am I?

Scott 57:28

That sounds much cooler.

Netanya 57:29

You should ride with that that's a good you know what I mean but when you can do that sort of jack of all trades and you have um you know I found this just in my own life at one point that my resume doesn't read beautifully in some beautiful order, but I have this like you said like Liam Neesome I have this particular set of skills that just has acquired from all these different things that I did that actually all lend themselves very nicely to this one thing that I want to go do. And it sounds like you have something similar which is pretty great. Are they all are they all in and around treatment specifically?

Scott 58:04

Yeah behavioral health and like there's I've done some work with acute because there's acute psychiatric so mental health specific programming there's SUDE so substance use disorder so addiction treatment programs. There's co-occurring which honestly most of the SED ones are because you you know there's not just like oh you remove the booze and then somebody's you know sunshine sunshine and rainbows you know so there's mental health stuff in there with all of them. Um but then there's all different types there's inpatient outpatient treatment there's um so yeah there's all these different types all these different types of programming.

Netanya 58:41

Yeah well I'm sure like you said there's people that how either want to start a thing or already have a thing and just need need support in that right that they just don't have that skill set for which is Yeah I mean and then just the the experience.

Scott 58:55

And it's like uh because that's a thing I I I do as well is they have a gap. They need to recruit and fill a role and so it's like I step into that role with the idea of all right I'm gonna clean this up and get everything organized and extinguish the dumpster fire and package this thing up and then hire and get the right person in there. Which is great. Like that's like the the part that I love is the discernment is that all right what's a good idea what's a bad idea what's going to actually work here? What can we do? What can't we do? And when it's consulting when I'm owning the business it's like I can just drop kick my phone into a lake at any point here and disconnect really whenever I want. You know I know I have to do it proactively and not just in the middle of a meeting or something. But it's lend itself so much better for eliminating those after 5 p.m fires and it gives bandwidth for me to just play board games with my kids and go for a walk around the lake down by our house and live life. And and I think that's the biggest part of it is like I was at the grindstone for so long and I'd forgotten why I was grinding. And ultimately that's why is so that I can travel and live life and joke and laugh and eat good food. Yeah. That's the stuff that I work for. And I'm just I'm blessed in that sense. I'm extremely grateful and lucky that it's like no this is work that I love. Like this is I'm doing something that I love to do which then enables and props up me to do things that I love even more.

Netanya 1:00:30

Right. And all of that makes not only really cool but it's also very sustainable. Yeah. Right. And it feels like it leaves room for flexibility and changing. You know like one of my favorite phrases is like I love to I reserve the right to change my mind. Say this works for a little bit and then you find like this one part of it that you like better. Like you can sort of morph with that as it goes which makes it really malleable.

Consulting in Behavioral Health: A New Venture

Scott 1:00:55

Well and that's that's like really been one of the great parts of it recently here is like I'm afforded the opportunity to work with people in programs that are in alignment with me. So it's like if if there's an organization that I'm trying to help and I see some stuff that's like no this is not cool. For one, I'm not emotionally invested in it and they brought me on there to tell them this stuff.

Netanya 1:01:21

Yeah.

Scott 1:01:21

So I will be like hey this is kind of unethical and fucked up so you need to fix this. And then if they start justifying and say oh no it's fine I talked to you know then it's like okay well you you have good luck with that. I'm gonna work with somebody else.

Netanya 1:01:36

Yeah.

Scott 1:01:37

And and I've had that a few times with organizations that I work with over the last year. And um or or some you I work with people that are oftentimes very, very stressed out. Owning a treatment program is like holy cow like that is I get it, but uh reverting to a place of anxiety and panic, especially if you're in a leadership role, it's like no I I I do my best to help them, but then I also accept um there there might come a point when I can't help them. And then it's also just for me it's it's like I moved on from a couple of different organizations because every meeting that I would jump on with them is them just like laying into me and reaming me for something that has nothing to do with me. And it's like, you know what I'm good. Yeah. I'm good on that. You know I wish you nothing but love and success going forward, but I think we're done here. Yeah. And it's like okay that's fine. You know that's that's yeah that's fine.

Netanya 1:02:36

I love that. So where can people find you?

Scott 1:02:40

So the the business page is Kindleconsulting.com so that's K-I-N-D-E L consulting dot com. Um and yeah that's probably the best place.

Netanya 1:02:50

Cool.

Scott 1:02:50

You know? Yeah.

Netanya 1:02:51

Yeah we'll leave that we'll leave links to that so if people are looking for you they can find you.

Scott 1:02:55

Cool.

Netanya 1:02:56

Um thank you so much for your time today. And should you find yourself in Tennessee. We'll go get coffee or something.

Scott 1:03:05

I would love that. No this next uh February I'm coming out again to to do that work.

Netanya 1:03:11

It's pleasantly not snowing in February in Tennessee.

Scott 1:03:14

No I know they'd prepared me for it last year. It's like it's freezing out here and it was 60. Yeah I'm like what are you talking about?

Netanya 1:03:21

This is like flip-flop weather my first the last year is my first winter and they there was one day for like a week everyone was like oh have you heard about the weather there's weather coming in everybody's gonna work from home it's gonna snow. And so I I do understand that the city is not built for it, right? That they don't have those you know plow systems and whatnot. But so we all worked from home and I look outside in the morning to see like how much snow we got that we had to work from home and I could still see the ground. It was a dusting yes and I've never laughed so hard. But they also I mean they don't know how to drive in it either so I don't leave because it doesn't matter that I know how they don't so I'm just like I'm gonna stay here.

Scott 1:04:01

All the other people you gotta worry about. Yeah.

Netanya 1:04:04

Anyway well look me up if you get or shoot me a message if you get here and I will I definitely will yeah yeah but thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. I appreciate it greatly catch up. Yeah thank you for asking yeah all right well good luck with everything and we'll talk soon. All right beautiful bye bye thank you so much for being here it means more than you know if you enjoyed this episode please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me head on over to NataniaAllison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday we'll see you next week