EP06: Compassionate Co-Parenting and Finding Closure After Loss with Scott Kindel

In this profoundly honest and transformative episode, Scott Kindel shares his personal story of navigating life's greatest challenges: co-parenting and grief. 

Scott details the essential work required to evolve his co-parenting relationship and drain the "swamp of resentment." Hear the crucial choice he made to prioritize his kids’ stability and emotional well-being over his own desire to be right. 

Beyond co-parenting, he discusses moving past the profound grief of his father’s passing, transforming a "swirling mass of emotion" into inner clarity. Discover the practices that helped him find inner peace and the role of radical acceptance in transforming his pain. 

This conversation is a masterclass in honest living, demonstrating how to put the ego aside and find the sweet spot where your work and personal life are in true alignment. Scott's story is about letting go, finding peace in the quiet moments, and understanding a fundamental truth: true closure always comes from within. 

Chapters

• 2:53 Navigating Conflict and Acceptance in Co-Parenting
• 11:45 The Importance of Boundaries
• 17:43 On Grief and Acceptance After Loss
• 26:33 Closure, Connection, and the Healing Power of Writing
• 34:15 Confronting Avoidance and Anxiety
• 39:33 The Broader Concept of Service in Recovery
• 47:52 Navigating Burnout within a Career in Recovery
• 51:51 Transitioning Roles and Finding Balance and Flexibility in Work
• 1:01:16 Consulting in Behavioral Health: A New Venture

Transcript

Netanya (01:32) 

All right, Scott Kindel, how you doing? 

Scott Kindel (01:34) 

I'm good. I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. 

Netanya (01:37) 

It is, 

it's wonderful to see your face. Even though I only produce this in audio, we do record via video. And to give you a little bit of a preface, because I don't know that I've actually explained this much in interviews. So this is, you know, I found a lot of healing through the road that I took, which was through addiction, substance use, and abuse. 

Scott Kindel (01:40) 

How? 

Mm-hmm. 

Netanya (02:01) 

and recovery, So that was kind of my road into things. But there's a lot of people, friends, family, people that I've just met in the world that have found... 

Healing and talking about things that are hard through many other avenues, I was in I was in Bali a couple years ago and at this retreat center with people that I didn't know at all and I didn't say anything about addiction and we're all we're all saying the same thing, ⁓ So one of the things I want to start off with you that I'm curious about about your life that I don't know that we've talked about that much is co-parenting 

Scott Kindel (02:24) 

Mm-hmm. 

⁓ geez. That's a big topic. Yeah. 

Netanya (02:35) 

Yep. 

And specifically what I want to know is what that has been like for you in terms of co-parenting with someone who you may not always be on the same page with about how that works. 

Scott Kindel (02:48) 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

It's been a journey. It's a continually progressing journey, I should say. mean, in the very early days, because we split, we separated, coming up on six years now. So it's been a while. And so in those, the co-parenting relationship is completely different. 

six years ago than it is now. And honestly, it took a very long time to get to a point where it wasn't ripe with conflict. a lot of that... Yeah, because I don't want to throw anybody under the bus here. You're looking at it from my journey, my perspective. 

Netanya (03:25) 

No, totally understand. 

Yes. 

Scott Kindel (03:31) 

A lot of it was really coming to a point of acceptance over what I can control and what I can't. That age-old serenity prayer thing. ⁓ figuring out, all right, what are things from a co-parenting perspective that is like on the table, we talk about openly, what are things that I have to find? 

Netanya (03:40) 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (03:56) 

I had to and have to continue to find acceptance over and that being parenting style and discipline and there's so many little nuanced things with raising kids that I think that was the big thing with it in the early days when we were first kind of sorting this out everything was a level red emergency. 

Netanya (04:03) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (04:17) 

potty training stuff and yeah, and that discipline thing and boundaries and all of that. And really, I think that's the part that's gotten much easier for me over time here is truly figuring out, all right, what are the things that I raise my hand about and be like, okay, no, let's talk about this. And what are the things that it's like, you know what? She's gonna do her style. I'm gonna do mine. 

If there's things in her style that I don't agree with, then I focus my energy on countering that when I'm with the kids. And then it's just, yeah, and a lot of that was through trial and error. A lot of that, honestly, and that's the way most people learn, it's definitely the way that I learn is by making mistakes, is by going down the other path of like, I'm gonna die on this hill, you know, over some small thing. 

Netanya (04:50) 

Mm. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (05:10) 

And it's just like, don't dig into that stuff anymore. ultimately, I think the relationship has gotten a lot calmer and a lot more stable without that. then again, the boundaries thing of like, what in her life is my business and what in my life is her business? And really, it's just got... 

Netanya (05:19) 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (05:30) 

stuff that has to do with kids. Outside of that, she can date whoever she wants to date. I can date whoever I want to date. The only time that it's even discussed is if it affects the kids. 

Netanya (05:44) 

I wanted to give you some props there for what you said in beginning of not wanting to throw people under the bus because I'm also not interested in that. And at the same time, I am interested in the truth and things that can help people and how to do that. How do we have real conversations when there's other people? You know, we don't live in a vacuum. So how do we tell the truth about things while also being respectful? Right. So I appreciate that. ⁓ 

Scott Kindel (05:51) 

Yeah. 

Hmm. 

Yeah, yeah. ⁓ absolutely. 

Netanya (06:11) 

you said it's changed a lot since what it used to be. What would you say is the biggest change from what it was like in the beginning to your current seat? 

Scott Kindel (06:20) 

I think at the beginning, because it's almost like one of the biggest things that's changed, and again, I'm looking at it from my perspective and my side of it here, but the biggest thing that has changed is a lot of personal work on my end to kind of drain this swamp of resentment, and because in those early days, ⁓ 

I was angry, she was angry, I was hurt, she was hurt. And that carried on for multiple years. Really, that first three years after we split was contentious. And a lot of that was really just from the echoes of the past. And it had the same flavor to it. We'd talk, get into an argument about this, that, or the other, whatever. And it had the same argument of when we were living together and I left a dish in the sink. 

Netanya (07:01) 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (07:10) 

You know, like that kind of just like, 

those kinds of just like that. And it was all those, was, it know, was a compilation. we're trying to figure out a way to work together in a different capacity where she has hurt feelings. have hurt feelings. I have resentment. She has resentment. 

Netanya (07:24) 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (07:32) 

And so that was the biggest difference is there was so much damage around that and injury around that to that. It's, you'd have an innocuous conversation about this or the other. And then one of us would get triggered about a tone of voice or something small. then it just, de-evolve into an argument. so. 

Netanya (07:48) 

Mm-hmm. 

How do you, in terms of where you're at today, when you do run into those things where you're not on the same page, and it is something, maybe you don't want to die on a hill about it, but it's something you feel very strongly about, how do you sort of find grace for her or for yourself? 

Scott Kindel (08:04) 

Mm-hmm. 

I mean, well, 

so, cause I'll break it up into two chunks here. So for one, how do I approach it and how do I find compassion? cause ultimately that's the biggest thing with it is recognizing what I know and what I don't know, cause it's also, I'm hearing things secondhand most of the time. It's a six year old telling me this. 

Netanya (08:12) 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (08:29) 

So it's like, I gotta take this with a grain of salt. And 

this isn't the Associated Press giving me ⁓ a solid fact-based rundown of the situation. ⁓ And so approaching it with that openness and not in an accusatory way, of just saying like, hey, benefit of the doubt here, but I want you to know what she's saying. 

Netanya (08:38) 

Fair. 

Scott Kindel (08:51) 

And then basically it's just approaching it with boundaries. and that even still, it's really the only time that it really concerns me is if it starts going into the territory of safety. and anything beyond that, it's, different parenting styles. And it's just, it's recognizing through, I put extensive research and development on this trial and error. 

of trying to control or have her parenting style match mine. And it's like, no, it doesn't go well. I had to try it about 100 times though before I really understood. It's like, man, no, because there's a thousand different ways to go about approaching an issue with a kid. And I'm... 

Netanya (09:25) 

Yeah. How's that going? 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (09:42) 

no writer than she might be, And so it's like, I my beliefs and she has hers, but really that's the biggest part of it is just letting go, Letting go and asking yourself what is actually important, 

Netanya (09:57) 

Do you ever get concerned or worried about or just consider kids getting mixed signals or mixed information? 

Scott Kindel (10:03) 

Yeah, 

sure. Yeah. Yeah, I mean the mixed signals part of it or I mean, because it can get confusing. Like they're ultimately the ones that are kind of in the middle getting tucked back and forth on a lot of this stuff. so, yeah, I mean, no, no, no, go ahead. 

Netanya (10:13) 

Right. 

When I think, sorry, go ahead. 

I was a kid of divorced parents and so ⁓ I'm remembering being young and essentially mine was a little bit, I don't know if it's more dramatic, but it was like I was one person at one house and one person at another house. Like everything was different. 

Scott Kindel (10:27) 

Mmm. 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Netanya (10:42) 

Even 

income levels and what my days were like, it was I had to sort of chameleon back and forth of like this is who I am and this is what's acceptable and these are the rules here and then this weekend it changes. 

Scott Kindel (10:53) 

Mm-hmm. 

Netanya (10:55) 

And I obviously turned out to be an OK human, think. ⁓ But I'm just curious if it's just something you're ever concerned about or how to counteract that when it's like you want to leave room for what she's teaching because there's value in multiple ways. It's so different than if I'm training a staff member. I'll have them follow more than one person. Like if they're training with me and then this person. Because you get different styles and you can kind of build your own. Now kids are a little bit different. But there can be 

Scott Kindel (10:58) 

Yeah, I'd say so. 

Yeah. 

Mm-hmm. 

Netanya (11:23) 

in more than one thing as well. 

Scott Kindel (11:25) 

yeah, no absolutely. A lot of it is, I have an ironclad rule that I have followed since day one. And even still, sure, and now just even hearing myself say it, there's probably been some vibes that were picked up, but you know, I don't throw her under the bus with the kids. Like I could be vibratingly pissed off with her about something. And I do everything I can to shield the kids. 

Netanya (11:50) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (11:50) 

from that 

because I just, know how much something like that can affect a kid, And so I try and kind of echo that forward with benefit of the doubt for their mom, like when they're talking about a rule that might be different at her house than here, when it's like, well, you're here right now, you know? And so I try to... 

Approach it with curiosity, like if they're telling me something that's happening I dig into it with them and and Try to be curious of the why behind something and then it's also going back to that original question of compassion and grace for her So let's say Because this is one that I know a lot of parents have dealt with like 

Netanya (12:24) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (12:34) 

mom is yelling at me all the time. And I'm like, all right, well, when was the last time she yelled at you? was like about, I don't know, two months ago. And then he dig into it it's like, well, I think we define all the time a little bit different here. All the time means all day, every day, And then even still at those times when, like I'll blow up at the kids sometimes, And then it's... 

Netanya (12:42) 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (12:56) 

It doesn't happen very often, but it happens. And a lot of times there's so much nuance and circumstance around any type of issue. And so it's like, all what do I know versus what do I not know? 

Netanya (13:01) 

Yes. 

Yeah, 

a great point with the circumstance. I'm curious if you feel like, we talked about giving her respect and not talking badly about her in front of the kids or anything. Do you feel like that's reciprocated? 

Scott Kindel (13:19) 

no. I don't. And that honestly was one of the hardest things. I think to a degree, yes. again, back to the original goal. I don't want to throw anybody under the bus here. But no, I don't think it is. But that's also another acceptance piece of... 

Netanya (13:21) 

Fair. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (13:37) 

this isn't a ⁓ sporting event where we're keeping score. the reason I aim to have that ideal or that goal is not because it feels good or, not for anything with me, it's for them, And so it's like, how does that goal change? 

if it's not necessarily always reciprocated. It doesn't, So, yeah, I mean, and that was a big point of contention for those first early years, And that was also just very frustrating. There's a lot of things about co-parenting I think that's the big part to dig into that are wholly unsatisfying. Well, it's just like you have these moments of, well, it's ripe with that. 

Netanya (14:14) 

Like what? Please tell me more. I'm so interested. 

Scott Kindel (14:22) 

of, right, do I want to be happy or do I want to be right type of stuff? Where it's like, I know I'm likely right in this situation. And I think honestly, that was one of the biggest things for me to own when we were together, in our relationship is I would just. 

Netanya (14:30) 

Mm-hmm. Age-old question. 

I'm 

Scott Kindel (14:45) 

and I'll present it like an attorney to a trial. Like, I'm going to outline 13 different points of evidence here for why I am right and you are wrong. And it would be this concise argument that I would just sharpen to the point of a samurai sword between the hours of 1 and 2 a.m. lying in my bed. 

Netanya (14:58) 

Yeah. 

Mm-hmm. Yes. 

Scott Kindel (15:13) 

And then, know, expectation never met reality and more resentment build, so I think that's the biggest thing with co-parenting is there has to be an undertone of like altruism and putting my ego to the side and being willing to... 

Netanya (15:27) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (15:38) 

Yeah, I don't want to say be the bigger person because she has her perspective and I have mine, but it's like, all right, I have to, in a very unsatisfying way, keep my eye on the prize, which is ultimately the kids. Their stability and their world is more important than my little fragile ego. And that's the unsatisfying part of it. 

Netanya (15:51) 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (16:04) 

and I think that's where so much of the resentment built in those early days is, and this was wrapped into so many of the different parts of my addiction and mental health stuff for years is that idea of this castle on the hill of I'm gonna be so happy when I reach that place and there's gonna be some magical day when the clouds will part and she'll. 

Netanya (16:22) 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (16:28) 

Genuinely apologize for all of this stuff. And then that day never comes and you have to be okay with that. know? It's just the trials and tribulations of expectation. know? 

Netanya (16:30) 

Ha! 

Yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Well, in any relationship, we always 

want to use the term closure. 

Right? That like this is all wrapped in a bow and we got closure on the thing. And sometimes for many reasons you can't get closure. You don't get that full circle moment where it comes back around and they say, you were right. You know? ⁓ And you have to kind of find your way through that of the putting the bow on it. This was what it was. What can I take from this that was good? What lessons were here from me? And how do I keep going? 

Scott Kindel (16:48) 

Mm-hmm. 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Yeah. Well, yeah. 

And then it's that element of the true closure comes from within, it's not an external prize that you'll find buried in a treasure chest somewhere, it's not granted. There might be external things you can initiate and do that will help with that journey. But I mean, what's the line between closure and acceptance? Yeah, now they're nestled right up next to each other. 

Netanya (17:36) 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. Yeah, well, and especially if closure is, you know, if the person is no longer with us or, situations like that where they cannot, you cannot have that last conversation for whatever reason. 

Scott Kindel (17:40) 

Yeah, man. 

yeah, 

I've had a lot of that, because with grief and loss and be it a job or a friendship or a relationship or a person, ⁓ because my dad passed away last year. And so there was a lot to process with that. And then even just friends and people and coworkers, there's been a lot of, a lot of death over the years and... 

Netanya (18:07) 

Yes. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (18:14) 

I had that thought the other day. This is like one of those I'm doing dishes in the kitchen and it rumbled in the back of my head of like, all right, if I am living in a place of full acceptance in life, full acceptance of what I can control and what I can't, how is there then any space left for regret? 

Netanya (18:36) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (18:38) 

where it's like, yeah, I can like anytime my mind is spinning from a place of regret, because I have, everybody has had, and then especially with my dad, he, he was diagnosed with cancer in like April of 2023. And they're like, all right, we think he could probably go a good three years. that's what our estimates are. And then he was gone in May of 2024, you know, so 

Netanya (19:03) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (19:04) 

just a year later. And 

Netanya (19:04) 

Right. 

Scott Kindel (19:06) 

so that was the regret part there, is all the conversations I wish I could have had and knowledge I wish I could have gained and stories that I wanted to hear, and all of those different things. But it's like, ruminating about that, I suppose there might be a little microscopic silver lining of living for today. 

Netanya (19:17) 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (19:27) 

that could come out of it, but 99.9 % of it is just a complex way of torturing myself. That doesn't produce anything. It's the same as daydreaming about winning the lottery. What does it actually produce? It doesn't change anything. So it's the... I mean, hell, that's... So much of life is just acceptance. So much. So much. 

Netanya (19:27) 

Mm-hmm. Sure. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Agreed. And so how would 

you... Yeah. And it's... Sometimes it's just a bitch. Like it just... takes me a while or I'm not there yet or I wish I was farther along than I actually am. And then you have to accept that. I have to accept that I'm not farther along in acceptance. 

Scott Kindel (20:04) 

Hmm... Yeah... 

Netanya (20:09) 

How would you say, what has been the most helpful for you in navigating the grief after, the loss of your father in terms of processing it or closure as much as you could get from that space? 

Scott Kindel (20:22) 

Hmm, 

I would say I mean the number one things That help through that process is community is other people is Talking about it Journaling, processing my own thoughts and feelings and everything around it And then so it's it's it started as this mountain It was almost like a heap in a landfill, where 

Netanya (20:30) 

Mmm. Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (20:47) 

The different, I guess you could call it the stages of grief, that applies to it. It's just a swirling mass of emotion. And as you give it time and as you shine a light on it and as you take a step back and view it and process, this giant awkward, know, bleeding tower of Pisa-esque pile of garbage gets reduced to this little mound. 

Netanya (20:51) 

Mm-hmm. 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (21:11) 

And 

that's the mound that kind of always will, that I suspect will always stay with me. And it's just like, you know what? I wish he was here. and it's just that, this is just this little sad mound of, the memories and things that, he's not around for. and, I had done, so you were talking about how you did a retreat in Bali. So I, I do, it wasn't nearly as, 

Netanya (21:18) 

Yeah. 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (21:37) 

I shouldn't even say glamorous. That is pretty glamorous. It wasn't as glamorous as that, yeah, so I do every year a retreat in Cumberland Furnace, Tennessee, which is kind of out near a UU, right? So it's like an hour and a half outside of Nashville there. And so it's a program out there where it's basically a retreat style treatment program. You know, they have a 30 day or 90 day or thing, but they... 

Netanya (21:51) 

Yeah! 

Okay, cool. 

Scott Kindel (22:05) 

They do these like weak intensives and about 15 years ago, they started doing kind of an off label intensive for people that work in behavioral health that are like leaders of treatment programs to come out for a week and do their own work, you know? And it's really cool. And I've been involved with it ever since, you know, since the early days here. And so it's basically once a year, myself and the same group of guys from that original group from way back when we all... 

Netanya (22:07) 

Mm-hmm. 

Ugh, I love this so much. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (22:36) 

descend upon this little sleepy part of Tennessee to do like in-depth psychodrama and like trauma work. And we're not focusing on pomp and circumstance and ego and networking and like, any of that stuff. it's just a recognition of like, all right, in order to take our team and our clients and people that we're trying to help farther down this road. 

Netanya (22:50) 

Yeah, 

Scott Kindel (23:02) 

We first have to go farther down that road ourselves, And that was one of the things, know, so when I went to it, the last time was February of this year, So at that point, it's still eight, nine months, something like that, after my dad had passed away. I was carrying a lot of that with me still. Have you ever done psychodrama before? ⁓ it's intense. ⁓ it's intense. 

Netanya (23:20) 

No, I have not. Please tell me more. I'm so curious about everything. 

Scott Kindel (23:26) 

It's super intense. So like the real basic, like intro version of it would be the empty chair exercise where it's like, let's say you have unresolved things that you wish you could say to a loved one who had passed away. And it's like, all right, I want you to imagine that that person is sitting in that empty chair right in front of you. What would you say to them? and 

That's basically the idea, but then it can also, in a place of trust and openness, you can have people portray the role of that person. ⁓ And a lot of times what they'll do is they'll have you switch. basically, and again, this is a group of people that I've known for over a decade. So I have implicit openness and trust with them. 

Netanya (24:00) 

Mmm. Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (24:18) 

And so it's basically a close friend of mine sitting in front of me playing the role of my dad. And then me playing the role of me and us having that conversation. And they would have me switch. So it's like, all right, I would say something. And then she would have me switching, like literally get up and move over and sit in that chair. Now I'm playing the role of my dad responding to my own question. You know, and it's like that back and forth and super intense. 

Netanya (24:24) 

Ooh. 

Mm-hmm. 

Ugh. 

Yeah, 

I bet it is. But I can see it being massively powerful. 

Scott Kindel (24:47) 

That was like suuuuper intense. 

yeah, yeah, I mean, ⁓ it's really, really cool. And that was basically one of the many things that was kind of talked about with that was it was a question of when, when do you sense my presence? You know, like, when do you feel like I'm there? 

Netanya (24:56) 

Ugh. 

Hmm? 

Scott Kindel (25:13) 

And this is, you know, my dad. And it's like, and that was my instinctual thing with it was just in the moments of calm, in the moments of quietude of meditation of, being in nature and those, those, that couple of minutes between different things and meetings of just like leaning back and taking a sip of coffee, and that, that like was this. 

Netanya (25:16) 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (25:39) 

almost awakening moment of just calm that kind of washed over me from that. And honestly, that's probably the closest thing that I found to closure on his death was just the like, everything's going to be okay. and there's like an element to him that's that's here with me, and I got tons of pictures of him up on this. 

Netanya (25:44) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (26:03) 

I know that people can't see, but I'll show you at least, but you know. I got a lot of pictures up over here, but there he is holding my sister when she was a baby, and there he is holding William, the same age. so I surround myself with that stuff, like I hold on to so many of the good memories and vibes and things that made him him, 

Netanya (26:04) 

Yeah. man. That's a lot. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (26:28) 

And also that's the great thing about it, of me being in recovery and I kind of became the bedrock for that last year of his life. I was the person he leaned on the most. I was the one at the doctor's appointments. I was the one helping him getting settled into assisted living and hospice and like, hey, I need this or that. So I was blessed with the ability and the opportunity to show up for him. 

Netanya (26:55) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (26:56) 

in those in that final year, you know, which I absolutely yeah, like I would not have been able to do that if it was 15 years earlier, you know. 

Netanya (26:58) 

That's a really big gift, yeah. 

Right. 

One of the things that has helped me that I've started doing, and I think I started this in recovery because it's sort of in the step process where you're writing things and I wrote a letter to someone who was no longer here that I had some things to say to. And so I've started. 

Scott Kindel (27:16) 

Mm-hmm. 

Netanya (27:21) 

I've started doing that more frequently, which is whether someone has passed on. I mean, I've done this with from childhood things all the way to someone that for whatever reason, I can't have that conversation in real life, right? For any reason, whether it causes more harm than good or all of those things. And I've just started writing truths and letters and just letting myself sob or feel all the things. Oh, it's so great. 

Scott Kindel (27:37) 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. 

Isn't that a beautiful thing? It's 

so powerful. mean, honestly, the amount and you going back to the co-parenting part of it, the amount of letters that I have written that I've never sent, for every one communication, there's probably a hundred that I just like. 

Vented onto a page and then I like all right delete Or it's a powerful thing, know of really the perspective from journaling I downplayed it for so long But just you take it from this nebulous like cloud That's like your head is adrift in to something concise that's sitting in front of you 

Netanya (28:08) 

Haha, yeah! 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (28:27) 

and it almost makes something imaginary then real. And then you put it down, you go grab a cup of coffee, take a step back and then read it again, and it's like, whoa, all right, now you have perspective. And that carries over to so many different parts of life. 

Netanya (28:30) 

Mm-hmm. 

Mm-hmm. 

Well, and I think 

how much I have realized through that experience that I didn't know that I was carrying. 

Scott Kindel (28:49) 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Netanya (28:49) 

and giving voice to 

it for me is a way of getting it physically out of my body. So I don't have to walk with this anymore. It's here, I got it out of me, I've acknowledged it, and the processing of it. But it's just, I didn't know I was still carrying that. And like I said, sometimes it's been, what I was talking about before was specific letters to people, but sometimes I will pick a topic if I just am in a knot about something. 

Scott Kindel (28:57) 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Netanya (29:19) 

person. know if I wrote someone's name at the top of a piece of paper, sometimes it's a topic like career or money or just whatever I'm in and not about at that particular time and I will free write on what memories I have around that thing. So if it's a person say you know I'm mad at my mom or something. 

Scott Kindel (29:28) 

Hmm. 

Netanya (29:38) 

kind of writing about like, am I mad about? Where do I remember this? Where has this happened before? And getting it all out and being like, man, I did not remember that some incident when I was 10 where I dropped ice cream on the ground or something like that still lives in me. And I know in theory that we, you carry the six year old Scott and the 15 year old Scott and the 25 year old Scott, those all still live in you. But when you sort of get to that point where you have a recollection 

Scott Kindel (30:01) 

Damn, damn. 

Netanya (30:06) 

of something that you didn't realize still lived in there that vividly. It's kind of mind-blowing how much we carry. 

Scott Kindel (30:12) 

yeah, well 

yeah, it's the stuff that we carry and then it's also like, like that's where in my morning journaling practice here, a lot of it is in the processing of anxiety. It's taking something and it's the same idea. It's like, I wake up and how am I feeling this morning? You know what? I'm feeling stressed and anxious. Why? 

And asking myself that question and peeling away the layers of the onion of like, you know what? I have this work deadline that I didn't meet two days ago and it's hanging over me. All right, I'm going to take a look at my calendar and I'm going to proactively schedule an hour here, an hour there. That'll give me enough space and time to get this thing done. ⁓ And oftentimes it's the same thing with just like, 

Netanya (30:53) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (30:57) 

me being short with my kids or, I'll have a certain feeling after a meeting or something like that. And, it's kind of identifying and drawing these lines between emotions and what we're carrying. 

Netanya (31:09) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (31:10) 

And stuff happens with work all the time. Where I'll leave a meeting that, on paper, it went really well. So it's like, why am I feeling all anxious after this? And it's like, ⁓ you know what? This brings up this feeling of self-doubt that I got from when I did a similar project a couple of years ago. And it's like, all right, well, why is that there? And it's like spelunking. You put on your little forehead lamp and dive into the cave. 

Netanya (31:13) 

Sure. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (31:39) 

and you get down to the base of it and you realize, there's not that much there. Okay. And then you're able to kind of breathe, reprocess. That's one of my favorite quotes is the quickest tool for countering anxiety is action. And just that simple task of like, you know what, I'm carve out an hour to do this tomorrow. And it's like, ⁓ okay. ⁓ 

Netanya (31:39) 

Yeah. 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. 

Well, and I love that, yeah, I love that 

so much, because I have learned enough about myself over the years to know that if I am avoiding something... 

that's such a flag for me. I don't call it red flag. It's just like an alert of like, hey, as soon as I'm avoiding something, ⁓ a lot of times it means I don't know how to do the thing. And so I am missing information or I don't feel confident in addressing or dealing with it. And so I keep putting it off instead of looking at it and going, hey, what is it that you don't know and how do we work through it? And so now when I do that, I notice and sort of stop and interrupt 

Scott Kindel (32:29) 

Right. 

Damn. ⁓ 

Netanya (32:38) 

the pattern and go, okay, why are we avoiding this and what do I need to do so that I can face it and move through the thing, right? 

Scott Kindel (32:44) 

And 

that right there is such a big part of it too, of avoidance. The why behind avoidance is all right, well, I'm not gonna fail if I don't try. And that was like, those are my life for a long time. Just avoid, avoid, avoid, avoid. 

Netanya (32:54) 

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was in my life for a lot of things for a long year. Yeah. Yeah. 

Yeah, and put my head in the sand so I don't have to face, again, truth, is why I created this, why we're having this conversation, is because I want to talk about the things that I didn't have context for, I didn't have language for for many years. Nobody taught me how to do that. And so in getting to the space where I now know how to do that, I've become much more. 

Scott Kindel (33:19) 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Netanya (33:27) 

even things like if I have to give a speech or something in... ⁓ 

You know, say in college you used have to give presentations. I would pray that nobody called on me. And so you'd sit there, say it was like three days of presentations. I would just be like, please don't pick me. I wouldn't raise my hand. I would hide as much as I could. And then I started to realize that I just dreaded that. I spent three days dreading the thing that I'm going to have to do anyway. And so what I started to do was she would say, does anyone want to go first? And I would go. 

Scott Kindel (33:36) 

Right. 

and 

just, yeah. No, exactly. Well, it's, and that's so much of mental, like the work of doing the work is ultimately making our minds more efficient, And what can I do to mitigate and reduce the amount of wasted energy and worry? Like, how much, if I were able to 

Netanya (34:02) 

off the... and then and then I have three days of like, oh I'm done, you know. 

Scott Kindel (34:26) 

somehow formulate all of my worry and anxiety and stress onto a pie chart. It's like, how many of those things actually came from reality? And how many of those things were actually benefited by that anxiety? And it's like, that's a tiny, tiny slice. yeah, right. 

Netanya (34:38) 

Mm-hmm Well, how much did you make up? How many things did you make up that there's 

no facts to support and you have now projected into some Potential future reality that doesn't actually have anything to back it 

Scott Kindel (34:47) 

Yeah. 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

That's the age old, know, perception is nine tenths of reality, And yeah, I've so many times lost sleep over some perception or dreading some meeting or, you know, because I'll do these high pressure presentations to, big organizations. 

Netanya (35:08) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (35:15) 

And I just have this rock in my stomach for multiple days. And I'll spend six, seven hours preparing intensely for this thing that I go in and ends up being 15 minutes of casual conversation. And I was like, why in the hell did I pickle my insides over this? Yeah, so it's just like, right, yeah, how do I mitigate this? How do I see things for what they are? 

Netanya (35:29) 

Hahaha 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (35:44) 

Yeah, rip the bandaid off, as you were saying. Yeah. Sure. 

Netanya (35:48) 

Yeah. So I'm going to change topics for a second because I want to 

talk a little bit more. I want to get to the point we talk a little bit more about what you do in the world these days. But I want to start with something that I just had in my brain. And I don't know that I've talked about a lot. So you get to be the bearer of a thing that was in my head that hasn't come out yet. ⁓ But it leads into doing things in recovery. And I want to talk about service. So one of the things that ⁓ 

Scott Kindel (35:55) 

Mm-hmm. 

love it. Do it. 

Netanya (36:12) 

I get a little feisty about sometimes within 12 step programs is that there's sort of a very particular way that people can give back. Within a program like that, I mean, you can be a sponsor, can chair a meeting. There's certain structured ways or positions or things that you can do that's considered service. And there have been times where I've gotten dirty looks for my take on that. 

which 

is that not only do I think that that's not true, right? That that's not the only way to give back. You can give back within a program, whichever program you do, you know? But I also think you can give back bigger within just the context of recovery. Maybe it has nothing to do with the program that you're in. I worked in recovery for several years. You have done the same. Or just other things in recovery that are not about whatever program that you're in that's bigger than that. And you can go even bigger which is 

I was, you know, I worked in a restaurant for several years and so I'm not in the quote context of recovery or a structured program or even a recovery anything but I would find myself, was always, everybody always knew that I was in recovery, that's not a secret and I would find myself cleaning something at the end of the night at like 11 p.m. and someone would come find me. 

Scott Kindel (37:30) 

Mmm. 

Netanya (37:31) 

and 

be like, can I talk to you about this thing? And it would be like, I think I'm drinking too much or whatever. And so now I'm just out in the world, sort of being a ninja and living from that space. But I was curious about your take on service, how to give back, and what's helped you the most here? Kind of pull whatever thread you want from this. But you obviously have also worked in recovery and then taken that to another level. 

Scott Kindel (37:34) 

Yeah. 

Netanya (38:01) 

now with the business that you have. So I just wanted to know what you think about that. 

Scott Kindel (38:06) 

⁓ it's a broad one, you know, like service work. Well, the thing I remember, I had a mentor years ago, and this is a fairly common 12 step saying, it's service work starts at home. and so that's one of the first things I think about is me not being reactive when my kids are bugging me. 

Netanya (38:07) 

I know. Yeah. 

Mm. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (38:29) 

⁓ 

is a form of service work. Like right now, mean, like, Clara's playing loudly in the background and I have this little earworm of wanting to turn off a microphone and be like, no, we'll play in another room. And it's like, no, like, yeah, she's six. I'm let her play. I'm gonna let her do her thing. I don't think you care that much. I don't, okay, good. 

Netanya (38:44) 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

I don't. Thank you for... 

No, we're here for all of it. Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (38:53) 

Okay. But it's like those little moments, those little moments 

of like stepping up, putting my ego to the side, leading with kindness and compassion and understanding So that's one of the first parts of it, those little acts. And beyond that, mean, because service work. 

Service is also just to my fellow man. It's just to like, going through Costco the other day and there was a guy that was struggling to unload this giant workbench off of the shelf onto his car. So it's running over there and helping him load it. it's those little things, like, service work is broad. It's really broad. Cause there's like the organic ones. Like I have sponsors, you know, I people that I mentor and that I work with. 

Netanya (39:35) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (39:39) 

But then there's also just a standard of ethics that I carry myself with and all of the work that I do and how I spend my time and everything else that's kind of a form of service work, So, yeah. 

Netanya (39:47) 

Mm-hmm. 

I think I get, 

so something I will say, I don't carry sponsors. And it is, it kind of goes back to that. I like to use like the metaphor of, I like to use the metaphor of the band. Nope, all good. 

Scott Kindel (39:58) 

Mm-hmm. 

Sorry. 

Netanya (40:11) 

So I like to use the metaphor of a band, which is like, sometimes you're the drummer, sometimes you're the lead singer. Everyone has their own seat, and it's all necessary and relevant. ⁓ And I may not be a good drummer or lead singer. I just don't want to do it, or it's not my passion. And so part of where I've had that sort of 

Scott Kindel (40:20) 

Bye. 

Bye. 

Netanya (40:37) 

feeling that has not gone well with other people is that I choose not to sponsor people because I it's not my strong suit like like personally working with people that are new in recovery I think my strong suit is a little bit people that have had some time and I can work into this kind of conversation with this because this is what I love and this is where I 

I shine a little bit more and it drains me and depletes me and I've met other people that are the opposite, right? They love newcomers. They love, you know, they love this space and I don't think there's a right or wrong, but I just, I'm trying to work on breaking that stigma that there's one right way to do this or that if you don't do it the way that everybody says you should that you are wrong or bad or somehow doing this like, incorrectly. 

Scott Kindel (41:22) 

No, 

no, exactly. And then this is also like your personal choice with it where it's like, I love sponsoring people. I love, you know, but then even still not all sponsors are newcomers. You know, so it's, it's like, yeah, but it's, it's, to your point, it's figuring out what is your strengths, what fills the tank, what depletes it. And then most importantly, asking the question of why does it deplete it? 

Netanya (41:27) 

Mm? Yeah. 

true? Yep. 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (41:48) 

You 

know, where, ⁓ cause there's so many different, just like service positions and structure within 12 step and I've done a lot of them, where it's like, event planning and representing the group at like bigger, more regional meetings and stuff. And, and it's like, I, yeah, I've, I've learned through each one of them that are, I've challenged myself. I've tried something new. I just don't like it. 

Netanya (41:56) 

Yeah, 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (42:15) 

It's 

Netanya (42:15) 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (42:16) 

like, and that's okay, but I could hold space and talk with a guy who's struggling about something and offer perspective. I could do that all day and like. 

Netanya (42:23) 

Sure. Yes, and So I will 

say it's interesting to be able to be like, I will mentor people. I just don't hold the consistent commitment of sponsorship. And I'm currently more interested in building things. sure, yeah, yeah. 

Scott Kindel (42:39) 

Yeah, it's also an issue of bandwidth and boundaries too. 

then I'm like, there's like, I, because I've known people that are like, I have a rule that every time someone asks me to be their sponsor, I say yes, no matter what. And it's like, no, I'm not gonna do that. Because I have to, you know, and ultimately, it's questioning the why, but it's like, 

Netanya (43:00) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (43:01) 

I've got, you know, I'm a business owner and I'm a dad and I think it also goes back to that base thing of like, I remember asking myself this question a handful of years ago when I was experiencing burnout of like, at what point in my life did I convince myself that self-care was optional? You know? 

Netanya (43:21) 

Mmm... 

Scott Kindel (43:23) 

where it's like, 

Netanya (43:23) 

Yeah! 

Scott Kindel (43:24) 

no, I can push that shit to the side. don't need to go to the gym today. I don't gotta work on myself. And it's like, no, dude, this is not optional. You've seen what happens if you choose ⁓ direction B here. so it's also a point, mean, hell, in any recovery program, not just 12 step stuff, honesty is the foundation of it all. So it's like, if I'm honestly at my bandwidth, 

Netanya (43:32) 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (43:48) 

and I take on another Sponsee when I have no room to do it the right way, am I really doing that person a service? It's like, no, no, I'm not. I'm probably doing more harm than good if I'm not returning phone calls and I'm distracted and half-assing it when we're meeting. it's like, no, it's, yeah, that's just kind of like living in reality. 

Netanya (43:52) 

Mm-hmm. 

Right, yes. 

Yeah. 

Yeah, and I think that my, 

I've changed over time. My life changed. What jobs I have had has changed, and how, like I said, at one point I worked full time in recovery and I found that... 

I was all recovery all the time and I couldn't turn it off. And for me at that time and the job I had and the way in which that was going. So I was already working full time but then running events which is all the time that I'm not at work. I'm also running events and then trying to take care of my own recovery and going and I was just I was so burnt out. It was not funny. You know and I was like this is costing me a lot. This trying to to do this for. So I had to 

Scott Kindel (44:27) 

Yeah. 

out. 

Netanya (44:51) 

step back and I took some time away from all of that. Not recovery itself, but the working it sort of thing and to give myself a new perspective. And it was some time, it wasn't like a month, it was a while. And to give myself, how do I wanna, I'm gonna come back to this. That was never a question, it was just I have to come back to this and re-approach this in a way that I can thrive in the things that I'm the best at and I love the most, which is 

currently building things, talking about things. And I love finding what didn't work for me or what hasn't worked for me and solving that problem. How do I make this better? How do I create something where there's a hole that I wish I could have had that I didn't have? And it doesn't mean to like, you know, take away from anything that's already there because there's so much good stuff that's there. I just think there's I have a lot of questions. like, what can we do here? And why didn't that work? You know, and that's kind of what drives me on how do I how do I keep 

Scott Kindel (45:44) 

Yeah. 

Netanya (45:48) 

creating and recovery and not cost me me. 

Scott Kindel (45:50) 

And then that sounds like, you know, going back to acceptance. it's like acceptance of ⁓ reality, of where you're at. And I've had that kind of moment a number of times over the years where it's like, I need to take a step back and breathe and kind of figure out how I can proactively design how I'm spending my energy in a way that it's not. 

dejecting or as frustrating or, you know, because that was ultimately, running treatment programs for years and that felt like, there's the mythology of Sisyphus, know, right? The man doomed for all eternity to push a boulder up a hill and that was how it would feel because... 

Netanya (46:22) 

Yeah. 

Yes, that's a great one. 

Scott Kindel (46:37) 

overseeing this broad team of people that are doing very intense, very emotional, difficult work. 

Netanya (46:45) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (46:46) 

⁓ whenever my phone rang, it was a work call. It wasn't somebody calling to say, Hey, I'm really happy with you. You're doing a great job. Thank you. And I just wanted to reach out and see how you're doing. It was never that, you know, it was this thing is fucked. Can you please unfuck this for me? And, and that's, like, I love that part of my life and I loved a lot of that work. 

Netanya (46:51) 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (47:12) 

But for a person such as I, who so easily will toss my own self-care out the window, it was a vicious combination. Where I loved the work, but there was a never-ending flow of stuff popping up. And so I would very easily work 80 hours a week, and just... 

Netanya (47:20) 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (47:39) 

Yeah, from the crack of dawn until 10 PM without even thinking about it, until I got to that point where I started seeing those classic signs of burnout of just not caring as much and not showing up and investing. And I'd sit there at my computer and then realize it's like, wow, I've done maybe 10 minutes of work over the last two hours. And so I had to take a step back from that. 

Netanya (47:52) 

Mm-hmm. 

Mm-hmm 

So 

I actually, I'm asking because I genuinely don't know. At what point did you transition from that position into what you do now? When did that happen? How? What was your motivation and how did that go for you? Because I don't know, yeah. 

Scott Kindel (48:07) 

Yeah. 

Sure. 

Sure, yeah, so 

I mean, it was a staged thing. So the organization I was working with, they had in like 2022 undergone a leadership change. So basically the CEO of the company built an investing group and then bought the organization. And... 

And then at about, at that point there was always talk of expansion of like, okay, how can we take the great parts of this program and do it on a bigger scale with a different style, And so with that... 

came a new corporate structure, came a reorganization of it, and it came the need for a financial person, and, to a degree, that's a bit of my background. That's also just something I've been inherently good at for a long time, was doing the budgets and, the pro forma and the business planning and that kind of stuff. And so this opportunity came across, and this was like, 

Netanya (49:08) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (49:21) 

to transition from, know, at that point I was executive director of this whole treatment program, and transition into this financial position within the parent company. And I was, again, I was at that place of burnout where it's like, I want to keep working, but I was longing for a, hey, it's 5 p.m., you know, returning off the phone, and something with more predictability and... 

Netanya (49:25) 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah, right. 

Scott Kindel (49:49) 

kind of stability to it. So I transitioned to that role in 2023 and kind of passed the keys over for this treatment program, which I'd taken from inception to that point. it was very, very hard, but it was also the right thing to do. I mean, it was basically... 

Netanya (49:59) 

Right, yes, yes. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (50:07) 

was putting my baby into a little bassinet and then like putting it up for adoption, you know, and then trying to help that next person to take care of it. And then, so I did that financial role for probably about a year. And in the middle of that, that's also when my dad passed away. That's when I moved, from... 

Netanya (50:10) 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (50:29) 

out in a very rural area to the city. And so there's a lot of change going on with life and basically worked to help launch this other treatment program. And that was the thing after about... 

I needed, I would say, three to six months of that to deal with everything going on with my dad and his final days and all of the life changes. And then I got, but after that, I got to this point where it's like, I'm clocking in, I'm doing the work. And I would maybe talk to two humans the entire day. And the rest of it, I'm working on spreadsheets and gathering data and doing reports and stuff like that. And it's like, okay, 

Now, did I take this transition and this other position because it's something I really wanted to do or is because I was burnt out? And really a lot of it was because I was burnt out, And I needed that, I needed that. But then I started missing elements of the work I was doing before and the more, the client care and working with people and developing programming and things, you know? 

Netanya (51:16) 

Mm-hmm. 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (51:34) 

And so, like really, it came to this point of there's nothing within the organization here that I could say transition to. And at that point I've been with the organization eight and a half, nine years, which like in this space is like in the behavioral health world, that's a very long time, you know? And so it was just time. It became... 

Netanya (51:48) 

That's a long time. That's a long time. Yes. Yes it is. 

Scott Kindel (51:56) 

obvious to me and again I was at a place in life where I could take a step back and so it's like okay it's kind of that that age-old leap in the net will appear type of a thing you know and so I moved on from that organization that was actually right about a year ago so it was October 2024 

Netanya (52:06) 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Okay. 

Scott Kindel (52:14) 

And when I did, I posted the little lovely social media thing, like trying to summarize all the gratitude and everything that I was feeling. And my plan at that point was like, I'm to take three months to just breathe and reorganize all these different puzzle pieces and see what I want to do. It's like, do I want to work in behavioral health anymore? Like, do I want to just fricking do something completely different? 

and I had explored, all right, know, healthcare is a broad tent. There's a lot of different, administrative or leadership roles I could do there. Or do I want to just leave all of this behind and be a writer? I explored that. I've always loved writing, so I joined a little, like, writing group in my area here and started doing that and playing music again more, you know, than playing music since I was a kid and just being creative and... 

Netanya (52:56) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (53:07) 

So anyway, within two days of putting that little lovely Facebook post on, I'd had seven job offers. From people just reaching out to me, like, hey, I saw your posts. 

Netanya (53:13) 

Hahaha! 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (53:17) 

And so that was my line with them. It's like, no, I'm going to take time for myself here, you know? And I'm not interested in working with another organization right now. Thank you. I'm very flattered. And for a handful of them, it was like, well, what do you think about doing consulting work for us then? So it has a little bit more freedom to it. And we'd still love to just have you involved, even if it's just in a really part-time basis. And I was like, OK, sure. 

Netanya (53:33) 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (53:42) 

I'll give that a go. And so, I still ended up taking a bit of that time, but started doing some of this consulting work on the side. And then after a month or so, I started putting a little more time and energy into it and realized for one, I really like it, where it's, it's like, I've, I've 

Netanya (53:51) 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (54:02) 

Just years of working in this field, there are so many little nuanced weird pieces of knowledge. 

that I've gained, not just from the clinical side of it, but it was from the financial side of doing that role for the last year. It was the licensing and credentialing side of it. It's accreditation and standards of ethics and policies and procedures and staff development and building HR departments and insurance billing. Insurance is freaking, I don't know how to tell you, it's broken. 

Netanya (54:28) 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. 

Yes. Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (54:36) 

It's real fucked up in a 

lot of ways in the US. And so there's a lot of like nuanced, very niche things that you have to know in order to kind of make any sense of it. And so I had these like, just from trial by fire over the years, just this very ⁓ specific set of skills that I had developed, you know, and 

Consulting lends itself really nicely to that. Yeah, and so then I started pointing more time and energy towards that and this just awesome business like unfolded before me, so 

Netanya (55:11) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (55:13) 

Now I have a whole team of people that I work with that each have their own specialties and kind of fill the gaps of what I don't have. we do everything from helping, really it's in three broad categories. It's helping people start new treatment programs. It's helping people expand or pivot existing treatment programs, which I'm seeing a lot of today with the state of Medicaid and the uncertainty that's out there is like adding different service lines and working with private 

Netanya (55:35) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (55:42) 

health insurance instead and you know. And then it's also management consulting. it's programs that are well established and are doing okay, but they need to be streamlined and mentored. And that's part of it I really like. I shouldn't say the most, but of one of the most is mentoring people that are in these kinds of leadership roles of like what I did where they're in the hopper, you know. 

Netanya (56:04) 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (56:07) 

They are in the thick of the shit. And it's like, all right, how do I kind of help them navigate that and avoid crashing into that brick wall that I crashed into? So that's basically it. Yeah. So I mean, I work all over the country. I think I'm working with like 10 different programs at this point here from. 

Netanya (56:08) 

Hahaha 

Scott Kindel (56:24) 

You know, little mom and pop methadone clinic in Iowa to ⁓ residential psych facility in Kansas to, you know, an intensive outpatient program. I'm actually the executive director of an intensive outpatient program in Houston right now. And, 

Netanya (56:27) 

Yeah. 

That's awesome. 

I'm not surprised, but it's still awesome. And Houston? 

Scott Kindel (56:42) 

It's great. 

In Houston, yeah, so I work in Texas. I've gotten to know the state of Texas very well. Yeah. Yeah. 

Netanya (56:49) 

Really? ⁓ 

Do you, does there a lot with crossing state lines and stuff, is there a lot of paperwork and different rules and stuff that you need to know across state lines to do what you do? 

Scott Kindel (57:01) 

Mm-hmm. Oh, 

yeah. You know, each state has its own nuances. lot of the baseline stuff is the same, but really where the difference is from state to state is in state regulation and, their different requirements and their way of doing things, but there's a thread that kind of goes between all of it. So it's, I've learned a lot, But yeah. Am I? That sounds... 

Netanya (57:24) 

You're like a ninja, really. I mean, 

Scott Kindel (57:28) 

That sounds much cooler. 

Netanya (57:28) 

yeah, you should ride with that. That's a good, you know what I mean? But when you can do that sort of jack of all trades and you have... 

You know, I found this just in my own life at one point that my resume doesn't read beautifully in some beautiful order, but I have this like you said, like Liam Neeson, I have a particular set of skills, that just has acquired from all these different things that I did that actually all lend themselves very nicely to this one thing that I want to go do, And it sounds like you have something similar, which is pretty great. Are they all are they all in and around treatment specifically? 

Scott Kindel (58:04) 

Yeah, behavioral health. like there's, I've done some work with acute because there's acute psychiatric, so mental health specific programming. There's SUD, so substance use disorder. So addiction treatment programs, there's co-occurring, which honestly, most of the SUD ones are. Cause you know, there's not just like, you remove the booze and then somebody's, know, sunshine, sunshine and rainbows. You know, so there's mental health stuff in there with all of them. ⁓ but then there's all different types. There's inpatient, outpatient, 

Netanya (58:06) 

Got it. 

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. Right. Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (58:33) 

treatment. 

There's all these different types of programming. 

Netanya (58:36) 

Yeah. 

That's awesome. 

Well, I'm sure, like you said, there's people that either want to start a thing or already have a thing and just need support in that, right? That they just don't have that skill set for, which is awesome. 

Scott Kindel (58:50) 

Mm-hmm. Yeah, 

I mean, and just the experience, and it's like, ⁓ because that's the thing that, I do as well is they have a gap, they need to recruit and fill a role. And so it's like, I step into that role with the idea of, right, I'm gonna clean this up and get everything organized and... 

Netanya (59:03) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (59:10) 

extinguish the dumpster fire and ⁓ package this thing up and then hire and get the right person in there, Which is great. Like that's, like the part that I love is the discernment is that. All right, what's a good idea? What's a bad idea? What's gonna actually work here? What can we do? What can't we do? And when it's consulting, 

Netanya (59:25) 

Mm-hmm. 

Scott Kindel (59:30) 

and I'm owning the business. It's like I can just drop kick my phone into a lake at any point here and disconnect Really whenever I want, you know I know I have to do it proactively and not just in the middle of a meeting or something But it's lend itself so much better for eliminating those after 5 p.m. fires 

Netanya (59:38) 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (59:50) 

And it gives bandwidth for me to just play board games with my kids, and go for a walk around the lake down by our house and live life. And I think that's the biggest part of it is like I was at the grindstone for so long and I'd forgotten why I was grinding, and ultimately that's why is so that I can travel and live life and joke and laugh and eat good food. 

Netanya (1:00:06) 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (1:00:15) 

that's the stuff that I work for. And I'm just, blessed in that sense. I'm extremely grateful and lucky that it's like, no, this is work that I love. like this is, I'm doing something that I love to do, which then enables and props up me to do things that I love even more. It's like, that's pretty dang cool. 

Netanya (1:00:31) 

Right, and all of that makes not 

only really cool, but it's also very sustainable. Right, and 

It feels like it leaves room for flexibility and changing. One of my favorite phrases is, I reserve the right to change my mind. Say this works for a little bit, and then you find this one part of it that you like better. You can sort of morph with that as it goes, which makes it really malleable. 

Scott Kindel (1:00:47) 

yeah. 

Mm-hmm. 

Well, that's really been one of the great parts of it recently here, is like... 

I'm afforded the opportunity to work with people in programs that are in alignment with me. so it's like if if there's an organization that I'm trying to help and I see some stuff that's like, nah, this is not cool. for one, I'm not emotionally invested in it. And they brought me on there to tell them this stuff. so I will be like, hey, this is kind of unethical and fucked up. So you need to fix this. And then if they start 

Netanya (1:01:19) 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (1:01:27) 

Justifying and say God it's fine. I talked a bit bit bit bit bit, you know, then it's like, okay Well you you have good luck with that. I'm gonna work with somebody else and and I've had that a few times with organizations that I worked with over the last year and Yeah, no or some I work with people that are often 

Netanya (1:01:35) 

Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (1:01:48) 

Time's very, very stressed out. owning a treatment program is like, holy cow, like that is, I get it. But reverting to a place of, anxiety and panic, especially if you're in a leadership role, it's like. 

No, I do my best to help them, but then I also accept, there might come a point when I can't help them. And then it's also just for me, it's like, I've moved on from a couple of different organizations because every meeting that I would jump on with them is them just like laying into me and reaming me for something that has nothing to do with me. And it's like, you know what, I'm good. I'm good on that. You know, I wish you nothing but love and success going forward, but I think we're done here. 

Netanya (1:02:12) 

Yeah. 

Yeah. 

Scott Kindel (1:02:31) 

And it's like, okay, that's fine. You know, that's, that's yeah, that's fine. Yeah. 

Netanya (1:02:31) 

Yeah. 

I love that. So where 

can people find you? 

Scott Kindel (1:02:41) 

So the business page is kindleconsulting.com. So that's K-I-N-D-E-L, consulting.com. And that's probably the best place. You know? Yeah. 

Netanya (1:02:47) 

Mm-hmm. 

Cool. 

Yeah, we'll leave that. We'll leave links to that. So if people are looking for you, they can find you. Thank you so much for your time today. And should you find yourself in Tennessee, shoot me a message. We'll go get coffee or something. 

Scott Kindel (1:02:56) 

Cool. 

Absolutely. I will. I will be out there. I 

would love that. No, this next February. I'm coming out again to do that work. So I'll drop you a line. I know. I know. They had prepared me for it last year. It's like it's freezing out here and it was 60. I'm like, what are you talking about? This is like flip-flop weather. 

Netanya (1:03:10) 

Cool. It's pleasantly not snowing in February in Tennessee. It's so delightful. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

My first the last year is my first winter and they there was one day for like a week Everyone was like, have you heard about the weather There's weather coming in. everybody's gonna work from home? It's gonna snow and so I do understand that the city is not built for it, right? That they don't have those, you know plow systems and whatnot But so we all work from home and I look outside in the morning to see like how much snow we got that we had to work from home and I could still see the ground it was a dusting. Yes, and I've never left 

Scott Kindel (1:03:38) 

Bye. Bye. Bye bye bye. 

Yeah. Was it a dusting? 

Netanya (1:03:52) 

hard. 

But they also, I mean they don't know how to drive in it either so I don't leave because it doesn't matter that I know how. They don't. So I'm just like I'm gonna stay home. Anyway, well look me up if you get, or shoot me a message if you get here and we'll find, you know, meet up. Yeah. But thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. I appreciate it greatly and it was good to catch up. Alright, well good luck with everything and we'll talk soon. Bye. 

Scott Kindel (1:03:59) 

Yeah, it's all the other people. All the other people we gotta worry about. Yeah. 

I will, definitely will. Yeah, all right. Of course. I enjoyed it. Yeah, thank you for asking. Yeah. 

All right, beautiful. 

Bye.