What I Didn't Know: Conversations on Resilience, Healing, and Becoming

EP08: Letting Go of the Need to be Right with Ryan MacFarlane

• Netanya Allyson • Season 1 • Episode 9

Share episode

“The most surprising thing I found in recovery was myself.”

In this week’s episode, I get candid with Ryan MacFarlane about our unique three-year journey as roommates, revealing how mutual respect was the foundation for success. We dive deep into recovery, with Ryan outlining the three universal anchors: community, a Higher Power, and service. We also explore the complexity of faith, detailing my evolution to a personal spirituality—including a powerful, physical connection that Ryan witnessed. 

Ryan opens up about finding serenity in solitude and the work of navigating old patterns of anger and sadness. Finally, we celebrate a life of action: from Ryan chasing dreams like paragliding and his new motorcycle to my emotional first snowboard run, proving the power of embracing the messiness of a full life. 

Netanya (01:35)
Hi. I'm so happy you're here. So for those of you listening, Ryan and I, Ryan was my roommate. And we lived together, how long do we live together?

Ryan (01:37)
Hello.

Yeah.

Almost three years

Netanya (01:50)
like two and a quarter, three quarters. ⁓ But I wanted to tell the story because I was thinking about it the other day of how we ended up living together. And I was telling someone that when I had first moved to Steamboat, had rented. It's very common in Steamboat to rent a room out of someone else's house or to live in like a mother-in-law unit.

Ryan (01:52)
Yeah, yeah.

Netanya (02:12)
and i had rented a room from the sky that i didn't know from a face book group and

I had been living there like six, seven months or something. he was very nice, but he was very particular. And he had tape down the middle of the fridge that was like, is my side of the fridge and this is your side of the fridge. So that was very much like what I was living in when you and I connected and started talking. And I think I was talking about like, yeah, my living situation is not my favorite. And then...

Ryan (02:45)
Yeah, you just didn't sound comfortable.

Netanya (02:47)
Yeah, and the next, it was like the next day you called me at work.

And you were like, like, the guy that's currently running this room in my house is moving out. Do you you do you want to move in? ⁓ And I didn't know you that well. And so I had called a different friend of ours and was like, do you think this is a good idea? And he was like, yeah, I do. I was like, OK. But where I was going with this is that the first day that I moved I just remember bringing all my stuff into the kitchen because I wasn't sure where

I

was doing with anything yet and I had all this dry goods right pasta and olive oil

spices and seasonings and I had set it on the floor and turned around to go Like dig into something else out and I turned back around and you were putting all the spices That were my spices in your spice cabinet like mixing them all up and I was like, Are you like do you want me to have like cuz that guy had had me had a separate drawer and this part of the fridge and you were like No, you you said you were like no you live here now

And I just remember that was it was just such a good feeling to know That I had a home and so over the next few years one of the things that's my favorite that I still talk about is living together is such a different sort of relationship, right when you live to someone it's platonic but you're sharing a space and you just did such a good job of

Ryan (03:56)
Yes.

Yeah, sure.

Netanya (04:12)
always making me feel like I lived here too. You know?

Ryan (04:16)
Yeah,

well you did. mean, we slowly became family.

Netanya (04:26)
Yeah. But it was so great that, you just considered me, even in questions of like, I'm gonna get a dog. What do you think? You know, that it mattered and it didn't mean it was like gonna make or break it, but that you weighed my thoughts on things and how it was gonna affect me.

Ryan (04:35)
Yeah, sure, sure.

Yeah, no, very much ⁓ also needed somebody to live with in my house. Just that sense of comfort with somebody else being there, someone to ⁓ eat with or watch a movie with.

you know, all of those kind of things that we did, especially in the beginning there, was very, very comforting for me as well.

Netanya (05:12)
And it's such like a...

It's such a weird, different dynamic, right? Because it's like a level of commitment, where you have a commitment to someone, but you're not in a romantic relationship. But you care. And you have things like you have a son and a dog and things in your family. And even when my family came into Steamboat, you invited them all over and had a party, celebration, barbecue outside with everybody.

Ryan (05:20)
Yes.

Yeah, that was good time. Yeah, what

up, Anita?

Netanya (05:42)
But just,

she just retired last week. I know. Yeah, but just, it was such a cool experience and I've had many roommates over the years and I always tell people you were my favorite roommate. You know?

Ryan (05:45)
awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool.

I say the same, absolutely.

It is, I think that it was a successful roommate relationship because it was based in mutual respect for each other and, sharing responsibility and respecting each other's space, opinions, you know, whatever it might be, that sense of

mutual respect and trust for one another was pretty big and those are not easy things to come by for people like you and I.

Netanya (06:22)
Mm-hmm.

No, no, and it's I still nobody understands like you do the How much I like to go to bed early

Ryan (06:33)
I'm sorry.

Yes.

Netanya (06:43)
Like even the other day, so I work in events, so I often have mixed up schedules and hours and times. And this girl that I work with, it was like our event was over and she was like, hey, do you

go out afterwards? And they all know I don't drink, but I'll still go hang out and know, chit chat or whatever. And I was like, no. I wanna go home. No, I wanna go home. I'm...

Ryan (07:01)
⁓ I do not actually take you for the invite yet. Yep.

Netanya (07:09)
I'm tired. And like we'd...

Ryan (07:10)
I have been trying to get back to my bed since I got out of it this morning yet.

Netanya (07:15)
Well, and like we would make dinner and it would be done by I don't know, 6.45 and we're both like, up about that time, see you tomorrow, you know? Which is just the greatest thing. But one of the things I specifically wanted to talk to you about that I just have a lot of admiration for is your recovery work, right? And...

Ryan (07:22)
Good night. Yeah.

Sure.

Netanya (07:41)
You know, we've had so many conversations about recovery and all the different aspects and especially that there's different ways to do things. And I think the way that you go about this through a specific program is just very, you're just so committed to it. ⁓ And I've watched you walk through each part of that. And it's pretty incredible. But I wanted to hear about your recent celebration.

Ryan (08:08)
Well, are you referring to Vancouver? Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that I found in this program of recovery is an extremely large

Netanya (08:12)
Yeah.

Ryan (08:24)
fellowship of people just like me. ⁓ And I serve the program. I am very, very involved in it. I stay in the middle of the pack, you know, where it's safest for me in my recovery. And so I got the opportunity to go to the largest convention that I had ever been to.

There was 35,000 people just like me there. you know, just opening up, saying the, opening serenity prayer. 35,000 people saying it at the same time just made the hair on my arm stand up. it was, it was an amazing event to be in this giant stadium, just packed.

Netanya (08:52)
my god.

Ha ha.

Mm-hmm.

Ryan (09:14)
full of people. And it gave me a new appreciation for how big this thing of ours is.

Netanya (09:21)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Well, and one of the things that, I will die on a hill about is that in this space of recovery, there's a million different ways to do it. ⁓ I like to look at all the different aspects of that personally. But one of the things that I just think no matter which road you take is so important is community. Right?

Ryan (09:40)
Absolutely. Yeah.

You know, no one program or theory or method has the monopoly on recovery. And what I have noticed though, is those who do programs other than the one that I am in, they have three things in common.

Netanya (09:55)
Yeah.

yes.

Ryan (10:00)
And

those three things are, like you said, community. There's fellowship there. There's some sort of connection, introduction, continuous connection with ⁓ a power greater than we are. Call it what you want. And, you know, for most of us, it is non-denominal and

Netanya (10:05)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan (10:24)
You know, for others, it is. And the last part of any other recovery program I've seen that's been successful is that the people that are able to stay clean and sober, they help other people. ⁓ And so if those three aspects exist, I haven't seen it fail.

Netanya (10:42)
Yeah.

Ryan (10:48)
so yes, we all, know, they're, everybody does it even within the same programs. ⁓ people do it differently, and whatever works is wonderful, but those three themes, things seem to be, kind of the anchors in the successful programs that I've seen.

Netanya (10:55)
Yeah.

Yeah,

agreed. I'm curious because, this isn't your first rodeo and you've been around for a little bit doing this. What is your, you know, however you want to answer this question, how would you say that this, experience of recovery has changed for you over time?

Ryan (11:24)
⁓ you know, it's funny, I was just sharing about this last night. And, I don't want to get to like, I don't know, ⁓ Bible thump a year or whatever, you know. ⁓

Netanya (11:33)
Sure.

Ryan (11:37)
as my journey as I get deeper and deeper within my journey of recovery, what I have found is that I have to work a lot more intensely, harder, with more intention to really stay connected to that power greater than myself. When we first come into this and, we kind of succumb to this idea that,

Netanya (11:43)
Yeah.

Ryan (12:04)
no human power, no human thing can get in between me and a drink or whatever your problem might be. And I had to find something, that was bigger than human, And so it's really by default.

that I said, okay, I'm gonna go along with this power greater than me. And a lot of people call that power God just out of simplicity. And so, I'd call my sponsor and I'd say, this and this and this happened today and it was awesome. And he would say, I bet you think that was a coincidence,

Netanya (12:30)
Right.

Ryan (12:46)
It's like, okay, I get it. there's nothing, human power could have made all that work like it's supposed to or like it did, you know? And so I really, those experiences came easily and they were easier to accept that, okay, there is something bigger than me out there and I don't actually have to, control and manage everyone else around me. And

Netanya (13:11)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan (13:12)
as the years have gone on now.

It's not those things don't just happen anymore. It's like I really have to continue seeking this connection. ⁓ And when I don't, I get sideways really, really quickly and and I suffer and the people around me

Netanya (13:23)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan (13:32)
and so that is the I would say the biggest change that I've noticed as of late is that it

has taken me a lot more effort to stay connected and deepen the relationship that I have with my God.

Netanya (13:48)
Yeah,

valid. I love this. And one of the things I always love talking about God as a concept because

I was raised Catholic and that came with a certain structure to it. I went to Catholic school for eight years and I learned a certain thing about what God meant in that school. And then about the time I turned 18, I was like, nope, we're not gonna do any of this anymore. And I did a 180 and didn't wanna talk about it, didn't like anyone that talked about it. If you said the word God, I would listen politely or I would treat you politely.

but I would stop listening. And then later into my 20s, I was working for this woman and we were at like a movement yoga type session. And she opened the session with, I'm gonna start with a prayer. And I was like, okay, you know, I'll just listen. And she started with,

Divine Mother Mary, Jesus, Buddha, Kali, Durga, like she started crossing religions in this prayer. And I was like, you can do that? Like I didn't know that you could make up a different version of what that meant because I had just been raised in one particular version of that. And so after that point in time, I...

Ryan (14:58)
Yeah.

Netanya (15:08)
sort of asked lot of questions and read more things and learn more things about different religions and what people did in different places. And then, I mean, recovery lent itself to that as well. I have my own inquiry around essentially, what do I want this relationship to be like now? Because it can be whatever I want it to be. And so now I love that relationship I have because like nature is my church. Right. And I find God in a grocery store.

with a kid, you know, like just you can find it anyway. And I loved having sort of broken down the way I learned that it was only this one way and then opened and like rebuilt it back up. And now what that looks like to me and how I interact with it is so much more regular and frequent. And yet at the same time, so different than the way that I was taught. Like I pray, I would say I pray regularly, if not multiple times a day, but it looks nothing like what it used to.

Sometimes it's frequently me talking out loud to myself in my house or my apartment. Sometimes I do it while I'm driving. And sometimes it's like, all right, friend, what do you want from me? I don't understand what you're, you know, and it's a little attitude-y because I'm frustrated. I'm trying to work, and that's the relationship I have is very candid and open. And there's a lot of gratitude and a lot of good things and a lot of hurt. And also sometimes I'm mad, and I don't know what you want me to do here.

But that got to be something that I got to cultivate on purpose, which is so great.

Ryan (16:34)
Yeah.

Sure. Yeah,

you know, it's a god of our understanding. ⁓ And yes, I often am in domestic disputes with my higher power, you know, because, you know, it's not going the way I

Netanya (16:44)
Yeah.

Ryan (16:56)
But you were definitely better than I was. Before I had this connection, I was belligerently foul-mouthed towards anyone who had faith. And what I learned in this process was I felt that way because they had something I didn't.

Netanya (16:57)
What do yeah.

Hmm.

Mmm.

Ryan (17:20)
They had a faith in something bigger than them. That they didn't have to fix, control, manage. They didn't have to do any of that. And I'm living life by the seat of my pants trying to make everything go the way I want it to. And if you all would just do it the way I've asked you to, you would be happy too. ⁓

Netanya (17:41)
you

You

Ryan (17:47)
And so that it was a real eye opener for me to understand, that I did not like that they had faith.

Netanya (17:55)
Yeah. Yeah. And I've liked to even that word, what that word means to me, it was so bound by religion specifically.

Ryan (18:05)
Yes.

⁓

Netanya (18:06)
And

I've loved how much that means so many different things now. Like I was in, ⁓ when I went to Bali, I spent three days in a silent retreat, which was hard. But one of the days, they had a labyrinth. You could walk. Do you know what a labyrinth is? Yeah.

Ryan (18:10)
Yes.

I bet.

Yeah, like a

maze. Yeah.

Netanya (18:27)
Mm-hmm and so a lot

of times you go in and you ask a question as you're walking the whole Path and then you listen for the answer on your way out or you meditate on a word There's a million ways you can do it, but they had this basket Of stones and the stones all had words on them before I walked in and it was like pick a stone and I just closed my eyes and picked in the word I picked with faith and I just sort of let it be an experiment for the whole rest of the time that I was involved

of like what does this mean for me? What do I want it to mean for me? ⁓ How can I be more open and allowing instead of me trying to control anything, everything, but specifically my view of what that meant.

Ryan (19:06)
Yeah.

Netanya (19:08)
But it's changed a lot over time and it's something that I think is really beautiful.

and I'm curious, we're gonna go on a sign tannin here because my brain just took me somewhere else, but still related to spiritual, still related spiritually, but I just remembered something I wanna ask you about and see if you remember. Okay, so we're gonna get a little woo woo because that is what I do. I know you're shocked. But I've had a handful, a small handful of what I would consider to be actual spiritual experiences, right? And you happen to be there for one of

Ryan (19:20)
I saw that actually happen.

Netanya (19:43)
and I want to know if you remember it. I have what I call my favorite days, right, across my whole life. And I have them, usually they're revolved around a place or a person. And so one of my favorite days with you, specifically, was Jace's 10th birthday when we went fishing.

Ryan (20:01)
Yes. Yeah.

Netanya (20:03)
It was like one of my favorite days. The weather was perfect. And we went out on, I almost said steam of like stagecoach, and had this boat and a tour guide and we went fishing. And it was such a great day and the weather was amazing. this, you remember the sunset was like just mind blowing. ⁓

Ryan (20:05)
Yes.

Yes.

⁓ man, gorgeous, yeah.

Netanya (20:24)
And so was one of my favorite days. also like fishing for me was a memory from growing up. It's very much connected to my grandfather who died when I was 13 who I adored. And I just love that it's relaxing and serene and exciting all at the same time. And so we had gone out on the lake and caught all these fish. I don't remember how many, but it was a lot of them.

Ryan (20:49)
We caught a lot of fish that day,

yeah.

Netanya (20:51)
⁓

But the experience that I'm talking about, we'll see if you remember, was at the end. The guide had all the fish in a cooler and he was gonna gut the fish. And he like, do you know what I'm talking about or where I'm going with this? And he said, does anyone wanna help me? Or does anyone wanna do this? And I don't think we said it.

Ryan (21:06)
I remember. Yeah, yeah.

about knocked people over to get in there.

Netanya (21:21)
right away. I like waited a minute sort of hesitating and nobody said anything. It was just me and you and the two kids and they didn't want to help and you were next to me I think and I just remember feeling like someone pushed me.

Ryan (21:22)
No. Yeah.

Netanya (21:37)
like shoved me forward, like from behind, but nobody was behind me. And I said, I do. and I, it it was like somebody shoving me from behind.

Ryan (21:48)
Yeah, sure.

Netanya (21:50)
And it was very much for me, like I said, that was a heart place for my childhood. And my grandfather used to do things like gut fish and you put a worm on a hook and go down to the Fox River and throw it in the water. It was very much like hands on. And I had this moment of like, I wanted to do it and I didn't say anything. then it happened. And I remember telling you or talking to you about it later. And I was like, did you see me? Because I felt like I was nuts.

Ryan (22:04)
Yeah.

Netanya (22:19)
but I felt like someone pushed me.

Ryan (22:19)
Yeah, no,

and that's why I say I remember you pushing people out of the way to get in there, you know? And it was very much like you were interjecting.

Whether you wanted to be or not, you were gonna go clean some fish, you know.

Netanya (22:34)
Yeah.

But it was just like little things like that where I know, like I felt it. And whatever it was or however you want to calculate, know, whatever you want to make sense of that, it was one of the handful of times where I was like something else was there, whatever you want to call that. But I felt it. And the fact that you watched me, like the way it wasn't just like a step forward, it was like a launch, you know. ⁓

Ryan (22:54)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Netanya (23:03)
But when you get, there's not a lot of moments that I have where there's any kind of physical evidence that there's a higher power than you. A lot of it is blind faith and you can't see it. It's not tangible.

Ryan (23:09)
Sure, yeah.

⁓ that's

why it's called faith.

Netanya (23:20)
Yeah, but it's just when I had one in particular that someone else saw, I wanted to know if you remembered.

Ryan (23:28)
Yes, I do remember that. I do.

Netanya (23:31)
⁓ Curious I Did not But we did have a lot of fish that the one in the freezer and I think you gave some away if I remember is like Gifts to people or because we had so much of it Okay, but I'm gonna go back to recovery because I want to keep talking about that what is for you What is the most surprising thing?

Ryan (23:33)
You smelled like fish for days.

Yes we did.

Yep, yeah.

Yeah.

Netanya (23:59)
that you have learned, that you have found, whether it's about recovery, whether it's about yourself.

Ryan (24:04)
you know, and I think the most surprising thing that I have found in recovery is myself.

Netanya (24:10)
I like what you did there

Ryan (24:13)
It's, I did not like who I was. I did not like how I felt. ⁓ I did not like my life. I tried the geographical. I tried drinking and drugging it away. I tried sexing it away. I tried anything I could. I did not like to be alone with me at all.

And I actually remember pretty early on, I want to say I was maybe six months or nine months in, and Jace, my son, was going to stay at his mom's house for the first time since she left.

And it was a big deal, you know, it was a big deal for me. And I was going to be in the house all by myself and I was really nervous about it. And so I got him all put together and he took off and I went and ran a bath for myself and put some like spa music on and like totally just chilled out in the bathtub.

and I remember just sitting there going, just felt this really deep sense of, peace within myself, which I don't know that I had ever felt. And I called my friend up and I told him and he said, welcome, you just got your first little taste of serenity.

Netanya (25:44)
Mmm.

Ryan (25:47)
And that serenity came from just being able to be with me. Not battling myself, not taking part in the battle that was constantly going on inside of me. so surprisingly, that is what the greatest thing that I found in my recovery is me.

And don't get me wrong, I have my own character defects and many of them have been removed and there are some that have not and they tend to boil up sometimes. But I also, I have tools to use to...

Netanya (26:27)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan (26:28)
I can look at it myself now even when I act badly or I harm somebody else and I can look at myself and think wow You just hurt that person You've got to go and clean that up now and Not spiral into this you hurt that person because you're just a dirtbag You know

Netanya (26:51)
Yeah. Yeah.

And you do that.

Very well, and I will say that of all the things I admire about different people one of the things I admire about you the most is that I watched you Like I think because we lived in close quarters and day in and day out when you'd run into something I watched you Address it, acknowledge it take responsibility for it and then work through the necessary process in order to walk through it

to like get to the other side and it's something that It's admirable. That's difficult to do repeatedly because you have to acknowledge your own part in everything and Sometimes depending on who the other person is or what the story is Sometimes people are really open to talking through things or conversations or they're doing their own work on themselves. You can have a really useful conversation around it and sometimes

you cannot. And one of the things specifically that you've done that with many times is the fact that you co-parent. You co-parent with someone who is not in recovery and who does not particularly do that kind of work on themselves. And I've watched you work through that. I'm changing and growing and learning and that affects your son and the person that you're trying to work things out with and be a good, you know, team with.

Who's not your partner anymore, but still very much in your life is not doing those things and so to be able to say what's your part in this and how to move forward through things to find a solution That's the best for all of you. That's a lot of work

Ryan (28:33)
It is.

It's a lot of work. What I have found in my experience of working through these hard times is that it is easier to do the hard work than it is to not. And to carry that resentment around or that, sense of guilt or shame around is far heavier.

Netanya (28:48)
Yes.

Ryan (28:59)
than it is to look at myself in the mirror and say, yeah, you were human there and you acted badly and you gotta go fix it and clean it up and

people don't always respond well to it, and that's okay. And being okay with them not responding well to you taking responsibility or being accountable or whatever it might be, that's okay as well. But for a lot of us, me, you I want everyone to like me.

and so it's hard when it's like, man, I just, destroyed that relationship and this person doesn't like me anymore. And the ego gets hit and that never feels good. And again, there's, more work to be done when that stuff arises.

Netanya (29:33)
Yeah.

Curious when you run into that right and the urge to be judgy kicks in Right when you want to make someone else wrong because you're right and I'm doing this the right way and you're doing this wrong And if you just would do it my way, it would be so much easier because I'm right, right? How do you how do you navigate that when that shows up in that moment?

Ryan (30:10)
Usually what happens is when I feel myself as disturbed, I know that there's something that I have to look at about me. ⁓ And it's not to say that other people can't treat me badly or harm me, but I have to look at my reaction to whatever that might be.

Netanya (30:22)
Mmm.

Ryan (30:38)
and I forgot the question now my,

my brain just totally went off.

Netanya (30:42)
This is so great. No, but I love

that because it's just about being real, right? Well, I don't remember what we were talking about. When that comes up for you, especially with somebody that you're trying to co-parent with, the judgment of like, but my way is right.

Ryan (30:47)
Yeah. Yeah.

⁓ yeah,

being right is it used to be the goal in life, right? To be right about everything. And again, it's just like trying to be right is so much more difficult than even allowing someone else to be wrong. Maybe you are right.

Netanya (31:01)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Ryan (31:20)
but

you can't allow someone else to be wrong, then that ultimately disturbs me. ⁓ And you know, I really truly try not to ride the right horse, you know, I don't, I can be wrong. I can be wrong and that's okay.

Netanya (31:36)
Yeah.

Yeah, I just relaxed when he said that. Like, I felt my body be like, yep, I can be wrong. and it's almost, there's a relief to it, right? And I want to go back to what you said before about,

Like so much how exhausting it used to be for me even whether you take the recovery aspect of how much My brain used to function over how much I had to think about or how much money I had or where I was gonna get stuff from or whose fault was this or whatever How exhausting that is right and how much easier I think it is also to I don't have to think about most of that anymore and even when stuff does come up where I do have to

My first response or maybe my second if I have a moment of flaw

Ryan (32:24)
Heheh

Netanya (32:25)
But my my often a frequent right away response is okay. Well, let's talk about it Right or let's can I address it? Can we lean into it instead of running from it like avoiding things? Was exhausting because now I'm trying to hide or run or duck and cover from the thing which is still there. It didn't go anywhere

it's still there the next day and then it's still there the next day and I'm exhausted and so just being willing to do an about face and look at things and take full responsibility for yourself and acknowledge things and walk through the messiness of a hard

better at that has been such a better use of my time and is so much easier when you're sort of willing to do it and you practice it then it's like yes something comes up

and I'm like, I have to address this thing. Okay, here we go. because you've done it before. So this is this is just another opportunity to do that, but it's not the exhausting, you know, that the the former way I lived and functioned was exhausting.

Ryan (33:25)
Yeah, I am very much an avoidant when it comes to conflict. I have, and really this is work I'm doing now, is that running is not helpful. Hiding is not helpful. Shutting down is not helpful. It's not helpful to me and it's not helpful to whoever I'm trying to be in relation with.

Netanya (33:43)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, no, that's great. I have another question. Hold on, I have notes. I'm reading them. Hold please. ⁓ I also wanted to know, what are you the most proud of?

Ryan (33:58)
I see.

I'm most proud of...

Netanya (34:09)
Are you, do you not like that word?

Ryan (34:12)
no, no, the words fine. I have to, you know, be cautious that ego doesn't get a hold of it. but you know, I think that,

Netanya (34:20)
Yeah.

Ryan (34:24)
that we should all feel proud about some of the things that we do in our lives. And I think that I am most proud of the way that the relationships in my life have changed with my family and friends and at work. And I think that I am proud

Netanya (34:43)
Mmm.

Ryan (34:54)
that I am able to help so many people and not expect anything in return for that.

Netanya (34:59)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. When you're, I mean, a lot of your relationship, just from what I know, have really changed drastically.

Ryan (35:08)
Yes, very

much so. Yeah, I, you know, I conditioned everyone around me to fear my reaction when I didn't get my way. and so, you know, it's not an overnight matter. And so the family's still like, ⁓ Ryan's gonna lose his shit over this. And I'm like, well,

Netanya (35:24)
Hahaha ⁓

Ryan (35:28)
I have no control over the airplane being late. So, you know, I'm just going to read my book or go take a walk in the airport or whatever. And everybody's like, wait, what? You're not going to go tell the lady at the counter here who also has no power over the airplane being late how they have screwed up your entire life, and it's all their fault. And so, you know, no, but I do, sit back and

Netanya (35:34)
huh.

Yeah.

Ryan (35:56)
and watch those people that used to be me, I was that guy, you know, and I watch them and I just think, yeah, you don't have to control this anymore, ⁓ So it takes time for people around us to get used to the new us,

Netanya (36:00)
Mm-hmm.

How? Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, because they're still functioning from who you used to be in the beginning, right? And they have that expectation, and they have validity because you, in fact, were that person, So it's almost, it's an interesting dynamic to start showing up differently when they're expecting you to be the old version of you. And it's almost like, are you sure? Are you sure you changed?

Ryan (36:19)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, and you know, it's one of those things that as awful as I was to other people around me, I can take those experiences now and I can share them with other people who are seeking a similar recovery that I have and say, look, this is how I used to act too.

Netanya (37:00)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan (37:06)
And there's a bond that's created, there's trust that's created between those two people. it's not that I'm proud that I acted that way, but those were experiences that I had to have in order to help other people.

Netanya (37:20)
Mm-hmm.

How do you feel like your relationship to the emotion of anger has changed?

Ryan (37:32)
it's changed. That was the big one when I first got into recovery. I was very, very angry at everyone and everything. And, you know, my favorite flavor of anger, because there are many, is self-righteous anger. I love that shit. You know, that's good, good stuff. My relationship to anger has

Netanya (37:48)
Hmm.

Ryan (37:58)
We've grown apart quite a bit. We've grown apart quite a bit. And one way that I would say the most helpful way that I learned to be with my anger is I would feel it, feel that knot in my stomach and I would talk to it. I'd say, ⁓ there you are.

Netanya (38:20)
Ew.

Ryan (38:22)
come over here, let's sit down, let's feel it together. And I would talk to my anger. And I had this picture in my head, what it looked like, you know, it's like, kind of like a Captain Caveman sort of looking thing, you know. And,

Netanya (38:26)
huh.

Yeah.

Ryan (38:38)
I would talk to it and it would just take, it would suck all the power of that anger away for me to be able to identify what it was and talk to it and sit with it. It passed far faster than, you know, feeding it.

Netanya (38:59)
Yeah. It's so interesting because I had such an opposite experience with the same emotion. And I learned how to stuff it. And so I remember I was in a women's group at one point many years ago. And the topic, we used to meet once a month virtually. And this is way before recovery.

The topic would change every month and one month that was anger and I remember Thinking like I don't I don't really have any anger. I'm not really angry about anything. Like I'm good. Life's good I don't know. I don't have any anger. I don't know what you want me to do here, you know sort of like Don't look at me And whatever she had us do I Want to say she had us punch pillows?

And like it, I don't remember if there was a prompt or what was it, but I remember starting and I got pissed.

I got really mad at a specific person from my past that I, you know, didn't realize how mad I was and that I had stuffed years of that because I think I didn't know what to do with it. It's not, it wasn't as socially acceptable for me to be angry because women are bitchy or whatever, you know, like, and I didn't want to be that way. I wanted everybody to like me. ⁓ And so I wanted to be the good girl and the nice girl. And so when you want to do that,

you stuff, the emotion, and it often, like I learned how to process sadness pretty well, but sometimes they mask as each other. Like sometimes I think that I'm sad and I'm actually mad. It's sort of an interesting thing that emotions do, you know? But I remember it was the first time being like, I'm angry. And then...

Again, in years later and much more just work. I've done just looking at all my emotions Learning how to acknowledge when I'm angry that that's okay that I'm angry. It's valid How to similar to what you're talking about how to work with it or how to To let it be okay that it's real and not lash out But also to not stuff it as well. because that's not good either, right?

Ryan (41:12)
Yeah, and

I think being a man, I had quite the opposite experience because the only emotion that was socially acceptable for me to express is anger. For me to show that I was sad, was not acceptable. So those, I stuffed everything else down,

Netanya (41:21)
Yeah.

Yeah. How is that? Yeah.

Yeah.

Ryan (41:34)
So yeah, unpacking all that was quite interesting.

Netanya (41:38)
How do you think, how has your relationship to sadness changed if you spent years stuffing it?

Ryan (41:44)
I'm closer to it.

Netanya (41:46)
Ha

Ryan (41:48)
Yeah, so I've got, you know, one of the things that I struggle with and a lot of us do is balance, ⁓ And

relationship with anger, we've grown apart quite a bit and my relationship with sadness, we've grown together a little bit.

And it's okay to feel sad and it's okay to feel lonely. know, those things. I remember early on in my sobriety, I called my sponsor, because I was feeling really lonely and sad. ⁓ And he said, well, let me ask you this. When you're feeling like okay and happy and everything, do you try and fix it?

Netanya (42:21)
Mm-hmm.

Ryan (42:32)
I was like, no. And he's like, well, why do you feel like you have to fix this? It is okay to feel lonely and sad. Feel it. Be proud that you can feel it. And guess what happens is it moves on. It moves on.

Netanya (42:34)
Ha ha.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was talking about that the other day with a girl that I work with. We were talking about being single. I was, someone had said something to me not that long ago about like, don't I wish I had a partner or whatever. I...

I remember what I said at the time, but her and I, the girl I work with, were talking about just the concept of loneliness. And I said, you know, I love so much about my life. Like, it's almost annoying how much I love my life, right?

And it's so real, it's true. And I've also that wasn't always true. There were a lot of steps and moments and one foot in front of the other to get to this place. And I'm really proud of a lot of those things. And at the same time, sometimes I get lonely or I...

you know, wish I had a person to share that with that I was excited about. And it doesn't mean I haven't dated occasionally, but I just haven't found that person for me at this point again. And we were just talking about the validity that both of those can be true, right? I can really love my life and so many things about it. And I have moments where I'm like, dang, I wish I had someone to like come home and tell this thing to, and yes, of course I can call friends and of course I can,

Ryan (44:01)
Yeah.

Netanya (44:04)
I get to do that sometimes too, but there's just something different about one interperson and What we were talking about the concept of loneliness and how to acknowledge it and let it be valid and Okay, and I

can also be sad in a moment and really love my life all at the same time Which feels yeah, yeah

Ryan (44:25)
all at the same time. Yeah.

Netanya (44:29)
Yeah, but it's just such an interesting thing of like how to let all your emotions be valid and true.

Cool. Well, I have one last question. Let's see. Wait, wait, pause. You got a motorcycle. I want to hear about it.

Ryan (44:41)
You know what I'm I did, yeah. I love you.

man, I love it. ⁓ It is one of the most freeing. Yeah, ⁓ I'm riding it down to Grand Junction this weekend to an event. So I'm really looking forward to that.

Netanya (44:50)
You talked about it forever, so I'm like, ugh.

Yeah.

Ryan (45:03)
It is, I went and met Ali down at Red Feather Lakes area, I don't know, a month or so ago. And I rode my bike down there and had to go over a couple of passes, you know, and it just rained and I could just smell the rain and, know, Ali is asking me, I don't get it. Like, why do you want to ride?

Netanya (45:15)
you

Mm-hmm.

Ryan (45:28)
like halfway across the state, you know? And I said, you know, when you're in a car, it's like you're cut off from.

Netanya (45:30)
You

Ryan (45:37)
the rest of the world, you're in this little box just traveling through life, And for me, when I'm on a motorcycle, I'm not just seeing what's out there, I'm part of it. I am the scenery and it feels awesome, It's just, it's been really, really freeing I do have to admit, I got a little, ⁓

Netanya (45:42)
Yeah.

Ryan (46:03)
confident in myself and I ate it real hard a few weeks back and Yeah, it brought me back down to you got this to have fun not prove anything to anybody, you know and getting in a motorcycle accident at 51 years old is a lot different than it is when you're 25, you know

Netanya (46:04)
Hahaha

Hahaha

Yeah.

Yeah. No, for sure. But I was so excited when you said you got it because you used to talk about it. And I was just glad that you did it. What made you pull the trigger?

Ryan (46:37)
it's so awesome.

you know, I've been looking and looking and thinking and thinking about them. and one day this one popped up. and there was a bunch of just perfectness around it, and I, I don't know. I just got this feeling of, it's okay. It's okay.

There are gonna be people that are not gonna be happy that you've done this, but it's okay. You can do this. You've earned this. ⁓ And I just, I've been dreaming about it and I called my buddy Seth, who is the reason that I didn't ride motorcycles for the last 10 years. And...

Netanya (47:24)
Yeah.

Ryan (47:25)
I told him, hey, you know, I think I'm going to pull the trigger on this thing. What do you think? and cause it matters to me what he thinks, you know, he's my closest friend in life. And, he's in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. Cause he crashed his motorcycle. and he said, you know, you're sober now. So your chances are a lot better.

And I was like, okay, so you're cool with it. And he was like, yeah, man, go have fun. and so that was it for me. And, I did, and I, yeah, I got the thing. I got the thing in the middle of winter too. I just was dying to ride it. Yeah.

Netanya (48:01)
And like Colorado, Colorado

winter is also not just like winter. It's like you are in 50 inches of snow.

Ryan (48:08)
Yeah,

so I really couldn't ride it for months. You know, I'd take it for little trips around the neighborhood or whatever every now and again. But yeah, finally, I mean, I've put thousands of miles on it in the last handful of months. Yeah.

Netanya (48:15)
Hahaha

Mm-hmm.

That's awesome. Well, and I love it too because so many

people, something I grew up with a lot, watching people around me. And one of the reasons I live the way I live so much now is that I watched a lot of people talk about things and not do them. Right? And.

Ryan (48:40)
Yes. Yeah.

Netanya (48:42)
I could go on a lot of tangents and stories around that, it's what made me move to Colorado. It's what made me move to Nashville. It's what made me, you know, go to Bali. It's like I didn't want to be a person that talked about things. ⁓ And actually, this is a random story that I don't know that I've told anyone. There was a day, hi tiny dog. He's like, my God.

Ryan (48:56)
Yeah

What is that?

Netanya (49:10)
⁓ I miss him. ⁓

Ryan (49:10)
Who is that? Yeah, that's your morning ball thrower, huh?

Sorry, I interrupted.

Netanya (49:20)
It's okay. got you see me like immediately lose track of what I was thinking about What was I saying? Oh so story in 2016 I think

Ryan (49:23)
Yeah.

Netanya (49:35)
I was watching the X Games with my ex-husband. And we had this big TV in the living room, and we had a big sectional couch. And I was sitting in the corner, and he was sitting on one of the ends. And we're just just the way we're chilling watching TV. And I remember it because.

Sean White was breaking a lot of snowboard records that year and it was like mind-blowing to watch, right? But I had this moment, I might cry at end of this, but because you're in the story too, I had this moment that I sort of watched TV and I looked over at him and had a moment of realization that we were having a different experience.

He's watching this and like he is a watcher. He doesn't do a whole lot of things with his life He's not a doer He was very content to watch someone else on the screen breaking records and like to be a part of the witnessing of it, right? He's very happy to do that and I'm over here, you know six feet away Watching this and all I can think of is I want to go do that

And it didn't mean I wanted to go on a half-pipe, but I wanted to snowboard down a mountain. I wanted to be engaged in my life and live and try things. And it was just a moment that I remember thinking, we're not on the same page. And this is several years, 2016, so this is two years before I left.

Ryan (50:43)
Yeah.

Netanya (50:59)
But just being like, oh, like we're not on the same page about the way we live or what we're looking for. And then I stuffed it and went back to my life for a couple more years. But flash forward to January 1st of 2022. I had just hit one year sober. I think I think my dates are right here. I'm going to go with it.

Ryan (51:07)
Right, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Netanya (51:25)
And I had got a pass. So I now live in Steamboat and it was the first and only year that I have a pass to the mountain. And I've never done this before. I don't know anything about snowboarding. I have to ask all of you who know what you're doing. Like, what do I need? What's the right equipment? I have a board. What else do I need? You know, and I got different stuff from different places and I had gotten a pass to the mountain and I had only gone like one or two times by myself because I, it was sort of overwhelming.

to me and so going by myself felt easier because I'm not like pressuring anyone else to like stay with me because everyone else there knows what they're doing and so but this particular day it was I remember it because it was New Year's Day and I went with you and Chris and Cole and there were other people there but the three of you were the three that I was closest to and the three of you are like and you and I that's the picture we have of you and me and Chris on the on the ski lift which I love um like I actually went

Ryan (52:11)
Yep. Yeah.

Yep.

Netanya (52:25)
like up the mountain for the first time and it was a bluebird day and so the sky is just crystal blue and I went snowboarding down the mountain for the first time and it's like nothing fabulous but I just when I got done I remember crying

Ryan (52:36)
Yeah?

Netanya (52:46)
And the reason I cried is because I remembered sitting on the couch and thinking I want to go do that. And I was just like, I did it. know, and just with awesome humans that, you didn't care that I was falling down and you're all laughing at me. You're like, we're going to do this again, you know. And at one point, somebody took a picture of Chris because Chris is on the skis. And so if you get yes. And so if you get yes,

Ryan (52:54)
Did it, yeah.

Yeah.

Yep, he was the only one on skis. So he was the most helpful to you. Yeah.

Netanya (53:16)
get stuck on like a flat plateau and a snowboard you have to like undo your binding. You can't you can't move and so he would come and give me his ski pole and he would ski off holding the pole and I'm just holding it to get me back to it to a place where it went down again. But it meant so much to me. I love that we have photos from that day because it was... yeah.

Ryan (53:30)
you

Yeah, it meant a lot to us too. We were very proud to be part of that.

Netanya (53:42)
And it was I think that it was a blooper day, that it was New Year's Day, and that I adore all of you, and I just had so much fun. But what it meant to me remembering that I wanted to be a person that lived. I wanted to go do things in my life, even if it's messy.

Ryan (54:00)
Yeah, yeah,

no, I'm still, you know, it's something that I drive Allie crazy with. And one of the reasons that she was not happy with the motorcycles, because I talk about doing a lot of stuff, you know, ⁓ but then it's like,

Netanya (54:12)
Yeah.

Ryan (54:19)
I've always wanted to paraglide. You know, and so I just was in this place and I remember you naming it for me. I was just in flow, like life was just cruising right along, you know, and, and so I, talk about a lot of things and it was one of the things I talk about. And so I decided, you know what, I'm going to go learn.

Netanya (54:21)
Yes, that was my other, I'm glad you brought it up. I was gonna go there too.

Mm-hmm.

Ryan (54:44)
paraglide and took this three-day course and by the end of the three days I was flying solo and ⁓ and it was awesome and motorcycles the same way you know I talked about it talked about it talked about it and one day it gets delivered to the house

Netanya (54:51)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I love that you brought that story up because that was one of the examples. It's just like, you were so happy. It's like you were glowing when you came back from that. there are certain things. You love Mexico. When you go to Mexico and you come back, you're all glowy. But it's also a mark of, I did a thing. And it's not just talking about it.

Ryan (55:10)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Could be the tanning

oil too.

Netanya (55:31)
⁓

But it became especially when I you know decided to make my life better like I wanted to really live it and So when and where I will jump in things sometimes and be like I'm gonna do this thing and sometimes people are like you're gonna what?

Ryan (55:41)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Netanya (55:50)
You know, I

mean if you saw how many people when I said I was gonna move to Nashville from this beautiful mountain town in Colorado, there were a lot of, there was a lot of people that were not all that excited for me. Mm-hmm, yeah.

Ryan (56:02)
Yeah, sure. ⁓

And a lot of that comes from, you know, they can't see themselves doing that, you know. Yeah. No, yeah.

Netanya (56:11)
No. No. But they're not me, right? And that's what's so great

about it is like...

You wanted to do a thing and whatever, you know, like you were talking about about the Seth thing, there's going to be people that don't like what you do. There's going to be people that don't understand what you do. you're going to ruffle feathers if you keep listening to whatever that voice is. And so part of that was getting better at being

being uncomfortable or other people maybe not agreeing, maybe they don't like you all the time, especially as a former person who really wanted to be liked all the time. And I say that as both of us, we've both had that. So to be like, yeah, you know, like I am gonna go do the thing.

Ryan (56:45)
Yeah, sure, absolutely.

Yep, that talks for you.

Or like Chris says, sorry about your luck.

Netanya (56:55)
Yeah, uh-huh, Christopher. Anyway, well, I'm so thank you so much for meeting me on here and having a conversation with me just about all the things. They're all true. And I love to talk about all of it, and I appreciate that.

Ryan (57:07)
They are. I

appreciate the invite. ⁓ I miss you. I do. I miss you. ⁓ And I think that we should do this more often.

Netanya (57:13)
I miss you too.

Agree,