EP13: The Greatest Rebellion | Following Your Own Pulse with Molly Martin

On this week's episode, I talk with Molly Martin, founder of the culinary events company Juniper Green, about one of the most vital acts of leadership: finding the courage to protect your biggest aspirations from the well-intentioned people who love you but sometimes struggle to grasp the scope of your vision.

We open with the "Running into the Room" experience—when enthusiasm temporarily outweighs judgment—and discuss how this impulse requires navigating a messy middle ground of accountability and ambition. We challenge the toxic belief that you must be burned out and broke to do meaningful work, exploring a new self-care model based on radical honesty and deep self-reflection. 

Molly and I dive into the power of realizing that many industry systems are “made up,” which can lead to breakthrough innovation. Ultimately, success demands the constant balance of leadership, responsibility toward a team, and the unwavering commitment to your most authentic vision. 

Join us for an honest look at ambition, integrity, and the greatest rebellion of all: the simple power of following your own pulse.

Chapters

• 0:00 Running into the Room: Enthusiasm vs. Judgment
• 11:47 The Duality of Impulsiveness and Spontaneity
• 16:17 Embracing Change and Growth in Business
• 20:49 The Journey of Starting a Culinary Business
• 25:32 Finding Balance: Responsibility and Self-Advocacy
• 38:52 The Power of Accountability and Support
• 41:07 Responsibility and Self-Care in Entrepreneurship
• 46:50 Integrity and Redefining Success Beyond Wealth
• 53:30 The Importance of Perspective and Community
• 57:21 Finding Your Voice and Trusting Yourself Amidst External Opinions
• 1:03:00 The Impact of Supportive Relationships
• 1:09:48 Embracing Questions and Collective Growth

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:29

Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Molly Martin. And before I get into the specifics of what Molly and I talk about today, I want to explain a concept that we begin the episode discussing that I don't think I did a very good job of giving context for what I meant. So the the concept that we're talking about is called running into the room. It's something that I coined a couple years ago. I don't like that phrase coined. I made up a thing to describe something that I was dealing with. And so what it means is when you've said yes to something or someone or jump too quickly into a situation without looking at your surroundings first. So if you were to picture a room and the doorway to a room, it's it's the feeling you would get if you ran into the room and you find yourself in the middle and then lift your head up and kind of realize where you are after you're already in the middle of a situation. And it looks like overcommitting, saying yes to something without having all the details, committing to something too quickly, or like letting a person farther into your world than maybe they have earned the right to be. So just any sort of situation like that, usually it's either situational or with a specific person. I wanted to give you some framework for that because I didn't do a great job of explaining it. And so that's really what we get into in this episode running into the room and when it's impulsive versus when it's spontaneous. Uh we talk about Molly's entrepreneurial leap and the role of like responsibility in the seat of leadership and guarding your vision and when you have really big dreams and maybe not everyone can hold them with you. So here we go. What I wanted to start talking about in the beginning is running into the room.

SPEAKER_03: 2:36

Ha ha. I should have known that would be the the opening number.

SPEAKER_00: 2:41

It's just such a we both have experience with it.

SPEAKER_03: 2:44

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 2:45

Um when do you think you do it the most?

SPEAKER_03: 2:50

Well, I'm a deeply excitable person. Um I I get excited about new things. I get excited about helping people. And then if it's helping some helping someone with something new, that's always also very like attractive to me.

SPEAKER_00: 3:10

And for context, can you explain what you think? What what do you define that as?

SPEAKER_03: 3:14

What?

SPEAKER_00: 3:14

Running into the room.

SPEAKER_03: 3:15

Running into the room. So that's a term that you introduced me to, which I feel like I could have used at least a decade ago. Um, but I think it's when your enthusiasm outstrips your reason or your what's the word I'm looking for? Uh your sort of like decision-making process.

SPEAKER_00: 3:39

Yeah, sound judgment.

SPEAKER_03: 3:41

Yeah, judgment is a great one. Yeah. I think most of the time when I run into the room, it is, I think, in some ways, an expression of the best parts of myself. Optimism, um, community, connection to other people, wanting to be like a cheerleader or a wingman or a collaborator. And I get, I generate a lot of ideas very quickly. So I'll just be like, oh yeah, we could do this, this, this, this, this, this, this. Um, but there's all other times that I find I run into the room from more of a shadow place of like it's a thing that I want to feel like I'm good at, or if I feel like there's a room that I want to be in more, or an area of recognition that I wish happened more. Let's say it's a creative that I admire, you know, reaches out to me to do something. I like lose all chill. And I sometimes forget who I am. You know, like I get excited about their work and I'm like, oh, they picked me. And then I will sometimes like overextend because I get excited to be part of something that they do, but I I forget that like I'm also talented and you know, have things to bring to the so a lot of times when I do it from that place, I often end up with the ick after. And I am working on getting better at like extricating myself when I realized I've done that. Because I think when you realize that you've done something from an icky place and you know that it's only gonna continue to go to an icky place, then there's like the shame thing where you're like, well, I can't tell you, I can't tell you that I was feeling an extra like pick me moment. And that's why I can't actually do the thing I said I was gonna do. It's almost like two, I'll get in this place of the shamey voice is like, This is your penance. You have to finish the thing because you created this, you know, like you have to you made the bed and you have to lie in it. And that's so not true, but the self-flagellation. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 5:52

I've also done it where I run into the room with a person where it's like a new friend of something or whatever version of that where you feel like you connect right away or something about it, and then I say yes to something, and then I'm suddenly in the middle of the room and I can't get out of it, and I realize it's like I didn't see the surroundings before I let instead of you know, and so I work on the space of it's hard though, I have to practice, but the space of peeking your head through the door before you run into the room and what's here and do I want to continue? Is this good for me? But I've done it with I've done it with people also and had to like then I have to undo it, which sucks because like my old version would just ghost things. And have occasionally still done that even recently, but I try really hard to stay in integrity and like have some semblance of conversation. I I mean I've had a conversation where I've been like, I think I think the way that you term friendship and how you understand friendship is different than I do. If someone's like texting or calling all the time, I don't keep up with that as recent, you know. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03: 7:07

Totally, yeah. Although I do feel like it would probably be since you are the originator of the term, that you should maybe also share your definition of Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:17

Yes, thank you. It's just it happened because I kept finding myself in situations where I am it's like lifting your head up and realizing where you are and like how did I get here? And it's because I quote ran into the room and now I'm in the middle. And so I I can't undo it. I'm already here. But how do I either back out of it or acknowledge it, converse my way through it, address it, do all the things I have to do. And then in noticing that this is a habit that I've had, how do I not do that moving forward? Right. And everything from going slower, especially what like a similar to yours when you get excited about like a creative project. Um, I'll stay on the friend topic because that was mine. Like uh like I don't have I keep a small group of people that I really value. And I mean I have wider circles of people, but I don't spend, like I don't go in depth with them on a lot of things. And so when I find someone, I'm like, yes, like they really get it or they can go there or whatever. Um, that's when I'll find myself having done that. And so I work on sort of like I said, checking at the door, like how is this responding and noticing patterns and habits, how are they talking about other people? How is how are they showing up for themselves in their life before I get all the way in the room?

SPEAKER_03: 8:37

See, it's funny too, because I I think I can recognize the patterns of that that have not served me, but I also feel like my propensity for that has been a catalyst for me on innumerable occasions. And I think that the experiences that I can count that were like very joyful or surprising or you know unexpectedly really rich were because I was just like, fuck it, let's do it. And so I think I that's a harder vibe to hold on to as you get older, especially like when you get more sort of responsibilities and in my case, dependence um and things like that. But I do feel like my ability to just go deep really fast and like be open to those kinds of experiences and just like a little bit impulsive, I think actually has been something that's served me really well in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_00: 9:42

Well, and there because there's a question of like where is it impulsive versus spontaneous, right? Where like one has a good tone and one has a negative tone. It's really the only you don't know the answer until you get the outcome.

SPEAKER_03: 9:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 9:55

Right? Because you can't determine if this is like, oh, beautiful spontaneity and it has a beautiful Yeah. Unless otherwise if it's impulsive, usually it has a negative tone, like connotation with it of like you didn't think before you did the thing and now there's a negative outcome.

SPEAKER_03: 10:10

Right. It's funny though, I think there's there's even a there's a duality though in what you said about trying to put your head in the room before you run into it or because I think you can also miss out on stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 10:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 10:26

If you do that too much. And I guess I'm just always on the side of like, I'd rather find out something wasn't what I thought it was gonna be after doing it, than like wishing I had done it. You know, I don't really I don't really have a lot of decisions that I regret a lot. I mean, have there were outcomes that were really painful or really hard, and and sometimes I can, when I'm not in the best headspace, be like, I'll pick those apart and be like, here's how you created that or how you ended up in that situation or whatever. But but most of the time when I'm reviewing that tape, it's like some of the most beautiful experiences of my life were happening either simultaneously or were just as much of a result of that let me just jump in this moment kind of thing. And I think too, people I don't necessarily really even fully believe in the whole like sliding doors thing of like you say yes or no and this thing happens because it's it's all these like micro shifts.

SPEAKER_00: 11:33

Say more about that because I don't know what you mean.

SPEAKER_03: 11:35

Like the sliding door thing. It's uh it's almost like parallel universes. Like if you go back in time and have a different decision than this, like you're a completely different person with a completely different life, whatever. You know, I think people get so I think you can get stuck in that mentality when you're reviewing the the path of your life. Of like, if I had chosen that person, if I'd gone to this college, if I'd only done this whatever. Um but that's all sort of a convenient narrative because there's no guarantee that any of that would have had a better outcome than what you are in now. But yeah, I do feel like even when I'm in like a low place of like something isn't panning out the way that I thought, or I think about something that was painful, if I actually really pay attention, I th I see all of that gray, like all of that duality that was like beautiful, joyful things and really hard things. And and I don't know if I would really change any of it.

SPEAKER_00: 12:41

Well, I think too, like I have a and this has only been in recent years, really, but I really have a propensity for living. And in that space I guess I don't have a lot of regrets. It's just been messy and I have you know, I have fucked up some things. But it's also like, you know, you and I had an earlier conversation today that was hard for me talking about something that I was messy about and I was emotional. And it's like but I learn in that space and it's that's what I'm here for.

SPEAKER_02: 13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:12

To get to get better and then make different choices and have different outcomes, and then how do you use those things? It's like gold that you've uncovered, and then how do I get to give that to someone else? Or you know, when you kind of see someone in a different place walking through and you're like, I know where that is. We talked about it with even just with business, right? All of the things that you have learned because you've been in them and made choices with the business that you ran. Now you get to be in a place where you have someone that you meet that's newer and you get to be like, oh wait, I see where you're going. You know, like let me stop you before so you're gonna need this help and support so that you don't fall down the same hole that I did. Right. And it's not to like protect everybody, but it's just like here's a little gift. Like they're gonna learn their own stuff too. You can't save everybody, but I just find it to be like you said, I don't I I would rather be flying out in the world, doing things, living like having a pulse and making choices and being in the middle of Times Square and trying and saying like I I did it or I I gave it a shot and I showed up and I said yes, rather than what I did for many years, which was like to drown in a couch because I numbed out from any and everything for many reasons, but it was just like I've talked about this before too. I've watched people for many years talk about things and not do them. And I just I wanted to be a person that does things, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_03: 14:40

Yeah. I also want to be a person who does things. I think what's interesting is I I did a very big thing, I think, in starting this company and like there was almost this point at which I'm like, are there other big things?

SPEAKER_00: 14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 14:59

That I That's a val it's a like did I spend my tokens already on big things? Like, should I just chill the fuck out? Because I don't I don't wanna I also don't want to just be like, you know, adrenaline junkie and just like blow everything up whenever it's like normal. But I can't believe we've been talking this long and I haven't mentioned the fact that I'm super ADHD, but it's a very big part of my identity and everything, and it's but the dopamine thing is real. Like if I'm not kind of on the the edge of like falling off of something, like it's it's not always easy for me to like stay super engaged in it. It's been kind of fascinating to create something and then get to the place where it was like not on fire, you know, and be in a maintenance place now. There's there's still a lot of growth happening, but it's like it's measured and it's sane. And and there's times where I'm like, I miss a little bit of the high wire act of it, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 16:03

So do you ever feel uncomfortable in the stability of it?

SPEAKER_03: 16:07

Certainly. Yeah. Um, you know, I think in general, like if there's there's that's sort of the the complication of the having that hunger for life thing is whenever you wake up in a day and you're like, I know what today is going to be.

SPEAKER_00: 16:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 16:24

Um, a lot of people find comfort in that. And I kind of don't, you know, there's a big part of me that's like wants to be surprised or wants to like um have new experiences. Like I fully intended to live here for a couple of years, you know. There I was not, this was not supposed to be my landing place. 2006. Yeah, we're going on 20. Yeah. Um, which is bananas to me, but it's been like living in ten different cities to be here over the last year. Yeah, from what I've heard. It's changed a lot. Um anyway.

SPEAKER_00: 17:02

When you I want to go backwards because I don't know that I've ever asked you, like when you started the business.

SPEAKER_03: 17:07

At what point did you Should we tell anybody what it is?

SPEAKER_00: 17:10

Oh, yeah.

unknown: 17:12

I forgot.

SPEAKER_03: 17:13

You ran into the rooms. I did.

SPEAKER_00: 17:15

I was excited about it. You are the founder of a beautiful company. Thank you. Called Juniper Green. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 17:22

Um which w it the term culinary events, is that is that a standard term for Um Well, I think quite honestly, I my background is restaurants, my heart is in restaurants. Uh it's not always um, you know, the kind of place that they can love you back. It's a very codependent situation to be someone who loves restaurants. Um so I knew that I wanted something that had more ability to flex and change with time and trends. And I didn't want the financial sort of like there's an old uh I think it's a Greek myth called the Sword of Damocles. Have you heard of that?

SPEAKER_00: 18:12

No, please.

SPEAKER_03: 18:13

It's a king who's has these staggering riches and a bevy of wives and all this other stuff, and he uh has a servant who sort of comments on how he'd give anything to trade season for a day, and he's like, Okay, let's do it. And you know, it's like the best day of his life, and then he looks up and there's this giant sword hanging by a filament directly over his head, and he's like, JK, we're good. So I uh I did not want that the financial burden of a brick and mortar hanging over my head. I had just seen a lot of people who were extremely talented and well resourced and had followings and whatever, who just like opened and shut in a few months, and I was like, okay with that. But I think I was also aware that like everything I had been a part of up until that point was like was cool and interesting and stuff that people would like, you know, get excited and write articles about and share on social media and that just is not a thing with catering. Uh it's inherently sort of unsexy in a lot of ways, you know. And I I had to make my peace with F. But I I already had this like contentious idea with it, and I did not want to call it catering, because I think that conjures very specific images of like chafing dishes and sort of institutional large format food. And um I was definitely trying to go for something different than that. So I think I wanted culinary in there because I think I wanted to convey that I was coming from that kind of fine dining farm to table background, and that it was that that the menu design and that those elements and that refinement was like at the forefront of it, not just I can feed a lot of people at one time, you know? But it's also a mouthful. So it kind of I think it's beautiful. Yeah, it kind of fell away naturally over time.

SPEAKER_00: 20:02

But um at the moment of wherever you were before you started that, what was it like like on the edge and what made you jump?

SPEAKER_03: 20:14

Ooh, that's a really good question. So you know, like I said, I had fallen in love with the culture. I think hospitality just kind of attracts interesting people, you know. I think some of them are messy as fuck, but I love that too. I felt like there was just it's always a it's always a place that like artists and creative people are rotating in and out of as a way to sort of sustain while they're chasing other things or making records or whatever. But it's also kind of an inherently unserious environment for the most part. So you can really kind of riff and be yourself and like still be professional and and kick ass at your job, but like there's just not a lot of the like, you know, corporate speak and the, you know, synergy and that kind of stuff. Uh I just I just did not I tried to have like an office job for like eight months. Eight, nine months. Yeah. I I remember telling my mom, I can't have an office job. She's like, Well, you don't know, you've never had one. And the irony of that woman saying that to me is incalculable. But uh I did it for like nine months. I was like going to work in an office park in like in a in like a cubicle in like business casuals, listening to NPR with my travel mug at like 23 years old.

SPEAKER_00: 21:36

And um I just can't see no one. No, that's very not a fucking nightmare.

SPEAKER_03: 21:42

But I remember going home to visit my mom and like she opened the front door of her house and I was like, I can hear my job. Like I just really sort of like bawling, and I was like, I can't go back. So I really went all in on hospitality after that and transitioned to back of house and really just loved everything about it. Got to the point where I was more in leadership and management roles and found that I really loved being part of the direction of things and sort of seeing what people were asking for and finding new ways of giving it to them. And I wanted to be the person who was kind of like writing the the playbook, I guess. So I did some consulting and I helped open several different concepts and uh like wine bars and stuff, and that was incredibly rewarding and incredibly hard. And so I think there was kind of an inflection point where I was like, I have the experience and the network and the whatever, and I know that I'm gonna work this hard.

SPEAKER_02: 22:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 22:43

Whatever I'm doing. So I might as well be working this hard for something that's for me. But I was afraid of having a restaurant for all the same reasons that I mentioned. I knew I wanted to be a mom at some point, and that's a really hard thing to make work. So the thing that just kept coming up for me is I didn't want anything that had a front door. I didn't want, I I didn't want to have well, because it's really like once you say to the world, this is open, the concept is in stone, right? You have to have staff there and product ready and, you know, all of those elements in play and ready, whether anyone walks through the front door or not. And I got really lucky that my job, I got to run something called food company for like five years that was um kind of a heritage business that had been around for like 20 plus years, and they had a really robust catering side. And I loved that that was different every time. And I loved that you get your money up front. Um, and that the stuff that I loved about regulars, that sort of relationship building and that trust and that trying to anticipate these little ways to like surprise and delight them and stuff, like that was in the best cases, like kind of through the roof in the event world. Cause for a wedding, for example, you know, like you're meeting with and talking to and honing this thing with people for like a year, and it's one of the biggest moments of their lives, and like and they trust you. So that part was really cool. And then but I don't know if I necessarily would have done that, except this is a typically verbose. I've taken the longest road to answer your question. Sorry. In the space where I was doing the consulting thing, I was part of three different concepts simultaneously, and I was working like 90 to 100 hours a week to the point where I got shingles on my face. And I got pretty burnt out. And I remember classic overshare coming. I remember sitting in the bathtub watching Chef's Table at like 12:30 at night, probably inebriated, and legitimately like trying to remember why I liked this in the first place. You know, I was like, I've lost the thread. The chef's table is this beautiful art piece that is just like exploring all of the passion and dedication and all the things that drew me to it in the first place, right? So, and I guess it worked. The inspiration was in there. And I was really into just through his cookbooks, Yo Tamada Lengi, who, if you aren't familiar, dear listener, is a Israeli chef who has a whole network of restaurants in London. And it's all like kind of Middle Eastern Mediterranean flavors, really vibrant, really clean, beautiful. And uh I sent an email at like I think one in the morning to info atolangy.co and I asked if they ever accept stages, which is like an internship for kitchens. And I honestly didn't really expect to hear anything because it was such a random, like shot in the dark. I think it was just like so messed up. I was just trying to feel something, you know? I was trying to like take any messy step away from where I had found myself, you know. And uh they remember back the next morning and they were like, Can you come in January? And I was like, Oh shit. And I was married at the time and like, you know, yeah, had these jobs and whatever. They don't pay you to be a stage, by the way. So I was, you know, looking at, okay, how am I gonna afford to go and stay in a very expensive city for five weeks or whatever? And this is sort of like a beautiful, sad thing. But like my aunt, who was really the woman who started my kind of cemented my love of cooking, but also my love of like feeding people and like that sort of alchemy around the table. She passed away and left my mom some money. She I think, I think she got the message about the money the same day that I got the email saying, Can you come in January? And she was like, Let's fucking go. So she financed the whole trip and we went together.

SPEAKER_00: 27:05

I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_03: 27:06

Yeah, and um what was really beautiful was one of her best friends had a daughter who was living in London and just let me stay with her the whole time. So my mom came for the first bit of time and then she actually did some solo traveling. She went to Barcelona, and then we when my stage was over, we ended up in we went to Lisbon and Venice together. But while I was at Adelange, I think I was in a lot of places too. Like I never went to culinary school, so I was like, maybe I'm not a real chef. I don't know if I'm a real chef.

SPEAKER_01: 27:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 27:39

And um, but then suddenly I was like in this kitchen that's like kind of world-renowned, and with this company that I've admired from afar for years, and was like holding my own. And then they did this thing where they like did a like anybody could submit a recipe to go on the menu. And I put one up and they put it on the menu, and I like blew my mind. I was like, what? But the real, I think, turning point was they were doing, I think, around four or four of them, five million in revenue annually. Yeah. And 40% of that was catering. And it was all the same food, but they did it in this beautiful large format way, and it was like a lot of it was ambient temperatures and grains and things that are fairly easy to produce, but you just sort of like the showstopper element is just is the flavor and the texture and everything. So um, I was like, oh dang, maybe there's something there. And then yeah, by the time I got home, I was like, I think this is what I want to do. Cause even when I was at food company, the way that people were eating, especially in Nashville, was really starting to shift. And I was getting a lot more there, people I was writing a lot more custom menus because that menu is very traditional and southern and like kind of heavy sometimes. And people wanted vegan and gluten-free, and like there was, you know, there were all the crash diets at the time too, like whole 30 keto, whatever. Yes. But um it was interesting because like the restaurant scene had exploded, and there were all of these new interesting experimental restaurants that were being open, but none of that was reflected at all in the event side of things. It was all like barbecue and pimino cheese and whatever, which I do also love. But it felt like there was an opening there. So yeah. I started it with a dear friend of mine named Lindy Stein. And um, we actually met in this class for food entrepreneurs, which is such a wild niche thing. But um we both had other concepts going into it, and then I kind of approached her and was like, Would you wanna do this whole different thing with me instead? And she was like, Sure. So And you did. I did, yeah. Um Yeah, I think it was that combination of like Had had gotten to the point where I felt really confident in myself as kind of an operator and a leader and like an ideator. Having built a couple different things really from gravel, I bought every piece of equipment that went into the space. I trained the whole team. I wrote all the recipes. I did everything. And um, I was a little shaky on like the actual business side of things. And that's where Lindy kind of came in because she has a great mind for that and had gone to business school, but was also really creative and she got social media and she could do graphic design kind of stuff. And her husband is a great photographer. So it was just such a I don't know, it really it felt like we were talking earlier about intuition. It felt like all those pieces were in place. And you know, I was like I knew that I was good at what I was doing, and I knew that I had a lot of people who would support me and refer me, and I had this really solid network, and I also had been through enough of that founding process to know that whatever came up that I would find a way to figure it out. Because it was like, even if I didn't know how to do it, I knew somebody who knew how to do it. And Nashville is even still, I think, uh uniquely close knit in that way. Like people will just move mountains to figure out how to get you what you need. Yeah. Which is awesome.

SPEAKER_00: 31:24

That's really beautiful.

SPEAKER_03: 31:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:25

What do you think over time, like because it's been several years now? How many years has it actually been?

SPEAKER_03: 31:29

Girl eight.

SPEAKER_00: 31:30

Really? Wow. So if it's if it's been eight, there's obviously different iterations and versions and changes over time. Like even just since I've been here, but many things changed before then. What have you loved the most about how things have changed? What have you learned in the evolution of not only the business changing, but you who you have to be from who you were in the beginning to who you've had to become?

SPEAKER_03: 31:54

Ooh, Lord. Wait, we gotta like we gotta parse that out a little bit. No, no, no. There's so much good stuff in there. I just want to make sure I answer it maybe slightly more succinctly than the previous ones.

SPEAKER_00: 32:07

This is why we're at this.

SPEAKER_03: 32:08

So what changed about me or what? Say it again.

SPEAKER_00: 32:12

I think so. As the business changes, who you were on day one, when things move like that and they're alive and they have an evolution, they sort of call you to become something greater. You have to keep changing to go along with that.

SPEAKER_03: 32:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 32:28

What has that required of you?

SPEAKER_03: 32:30

Oh man. Courage, a lot of that, humility. I think that um I feel really grateful. I my mom kind of normalized from a pretty young age, like calling out struggle and that just being a natural thing that everybody just that we need each other, you know? And that being something beautiful versus something to um to hide. Um and so especially the women in my life in the culinary world, but a lot of others. I think I do think when you when you take that leap of trying something and putting yourself out there like that, there's people there to catch you. People are they want you to succeed, and they there's almost an affection for it, if that makes any sense. Every time I felt sort of stuck, I would think of someone that I knew who had been in that place before, or I would even just sort of be vulnerable with other people in the that space, and they would say, I know who you need to talk to. And it was just there was always some door that opened, and I had to have both the courage and the humility to walk through it and go ask those people and to like seek out those resources. But I think it also required somewhat of the opposite of humility, where like I think I tend to go too hard on that side of things. And a lot of people were like, you could be doing bigger stuff. Like you really should, you're playing small ball and you need to get out of your head or you need to do whatever things. And I think that's I had to one of the biggest things I had to learn to do was to advocate for myself because I generally still believe that most people are intrinsically good, and I'm very like optimistic. And so when when people would argue with me or haggle with me about what I was providing was worth, I was often sort of like trying to find a way to make it happen. I wanted it to be something where it felt like collaborative or like I was, you know, um a partner in it. And it took me a while to sort of recognize that people will just ask you to do it for less just because.

SPEAKER_02: 35:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 35:11

And you can say no and everything will be fine.

SPEAKER_02: 35:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 35:14

You know, and like, and often like the more people ask you to do it for less, you should probably be charging more. So, like, the funny thing was I have joked for many times over the years that like I can't afford my own services. Um, you know, like I could not book Juniper Green to cater my birthday party or whatever, but I often more identified with the clients who like couldn't afford what I was doing than I did with the people who could. And I think where I always really got into trouble was like people who I could tell really loved what I was doing and really valued it and wanted, wanted exactly what I was doing, but didn't have the money. And in some ways, like I'm happier to make an exception for that. Yeah, it was learning to value myself and my time and the time of my team and like to protect them because a lot of times stuff that the client's asking me for stuff that's the the check is gonna get cashed by the people who are doing the event. You know what I mean? Like if they say, Can we can we bring three less people and you say yes, it's way harder for everybody who's there. So like, yeah, I just had to like get a stronger voice.

SPEAKER_00: 36:17

I think that's been a thing that I've also struggled with. And where do you where I've had to have humility where you ask for help that I don't know to answer to something, and who do I find that does? And also the opposite. Where do I own that no, I am the right person for this? You want me in this seat, and I do know what I'm talking about, right? And kind of the the dancing between the two because it's not always, you know, you move between those spaces, but the seat of being what I I love, I do my best, like for my whole life, this will be a thing that I do, which is to be both a student and a teacher, right? And how to know when to lean more into one. And when there's there's been spaces where I walk in a room and I am like, I'm not gonna talk. Like, this is a space where you listen. Yeah. You know, and other why and others uh, you know, the alternative being when many years ago I would look at being a room uh when I was in teaching and be like, what what do you look what are you looking at me for? Literally, this happened when someone came in to a class I was teaching. I was very young and asked for the teacher. And I looked around the room and like it just took me a minute because I was very new to it to be like, Oh, you're the teacher. You know, but it was I was out of college. It's and I had, you know, weeks before been in the seat of a classroom where I'm a student and talking to a professor, and now suddenly I'm the teacher. But it's just it was it was more, you know, different then. But now to still run that balance of where do you where do I need to be humble and I have things to learn? And you know, I still fervently believe that you can learn as much from a CEO as you can an intern. Absolutely. And to be quiet and listen, and where do you speak and lead and come from that place of how can I help you? And also still be learning while you're leading, which is its own dynamic.

SPEAKER_02: 38:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:12

But it's just a really beautiful, a beautiful way of living that I think you also do a really good job of.

SPEAKER_03: 38:18

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 38:19

I'm curious about what responsibility has felt like throughout that process. Like when you when you start something and it's just you versus when you have a partner or then staff, as that number grows and people rely on you, whether it's monetarily or just safety, security, all the things that come along with being in charge, what has that been like?

SPEAKER_03: 38:40

Yeah. You know, I think for better or worse, most of the time I'm more worried about taking care of other people than myself. And so I feel like because I started it uh with another person who balanced me in a lot of ways that I needed. Like I think that helped me be more motivated and push harder in the beginning than I probably would have if it was just me by myself. Um and she was someone who I think saw very early on, she saw me as much bigger than I saw myself. She was reminding me of that all the time in the beginning. And we we had extremely high standards and we held each other accountable. And so I felt that responsibility to her right away because she took a risk on me just as much as we like took a risk on the business. I certainly felt responsibility to my husband who trusted me to do that. But I would say that the weight of that was kind of not as prevalent in the first maybe year or so because it was all just more fun and exciting. And I just like I put pressure on myself to to make it happen. And then we both got pregnant.

SPEAKER_00: 40:03

Both of you.

SPEAKER_03: 40:04

Yeah. Oh, within three months of each other.

SPEAKER_00: 40:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_03: 40:08

Yeah. Uh fun fact, we were driving to uh an office to sign a commercial lease, or we had an appointment to go sign a commercial lease after all these negotiations and walkthroughs, and my dad came up and like drew plans of what this space was gonna be and whatever. We had investors lined up and everything, and then I found out I was having twins the morning of that meeting, and we were like, just kidding. Um talk about responsibility. But that really forced us force our first hire, you know, and I think we may have we may have played smaller if that hadn't been a thing. And then so suddenly, yeah, you have the responsibility of an entire other salary and than your own and all of that. But I I think we I think we did things really creatively and very we ran very lean for a long time. But I think that the responsibility always felt it felt more motivating, maybe, to me than than paralyzing. Like I felt I always felt really I've never taken it lightly when people put their trust in me to deliver an experience. And I know how it feels when I nail it, and I know how it feels when I don't. And so like that responsibility was always very much at the forefront for me too. But there's that immediate like dopamine payoff when everybody's just elated, you know. So yeah, it it there was it was always it's always very rewarding. I think there were certainly times like COVID was a big one where, you know, there were two people on salary and I quite honestly kept them on a lot longer than I probably should have because I felt like obligated to. I felt like that was my yeah, that was my responsibility to them. But then I think that's where it gets messy, is when when you had to navigate taking care of people on your team versus taking care of the business as a whole and the health of it and the sustainability of it. Because sometimes like one or two people will need more from it or take more from it than um than is healthy. And um I think those have been some of my biggest learning experiences is figuring out how to care for people and the overall health of the company in equal measure. Because I would say I always erred on the side of caring for people, which I don't really regret necessarily, but I think I just it took me a while in the same way that it took me a while to get the voice of of confidence and like clarity and boundaries with clients, it took me a lot longer to get that with people on my team, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 42:49

Well, and then the question that will not talk you that I ask you, how do you how do you then in the middle of all that make sure that you take care of yourself?

SPEAKER_03: 43:00

Um, I don't have an answer for that, Natanya. Um I've not done that very well.

SPEAKER_00: 43:04

Well, I talk about it because I get and I get they give me a hard time at work for this, because I'll get on tangents about it with some of our team. One of them affectionately told me I was momming her the other day because I'm like, you know, I can see where you're burning out a little bit and it matters. Yeah. Right? But how do you walk that walk so that those people also have the permission to do that?

SPEAKER_03: 43:27

I mean, girl, I have given that speech so many times, and I've even given the speech to middle management of you have to model this thing or no one will buy it while I'm simultaneously not modeling it, you know. I'm like, well, it doesn't count because I'm the owner and I, you know, I'm supposed to suffer, you know. Again, I made this bet. Now I have to lie in it. But um, you know, I think I I think I had seen a lot of owners who were kind of absentee landlords in their own businesses, and I remember what I said about them and what other people said about them. And I decidedly did not want to be one of those people. You know, it also I feel like there's a lot of phony self-care talk in the entrepreneurial space. Most people are not walking that walk at all. Um, and like maybe they're taking vitamins or some shit, but they're not really, you know, leaning in on the self-care. It's like there it is still very glamorized the hustle, the grind, the you know, blood, sweat, and tears, and all of the like imagery, even that you hear about it's like you're in the arena, you're like your trenches, you're all this stuff. And um, especially when you have a network of other people who are in that space, like even your greetings to each other are like how are you doing? Oh, I'm you know, treading water, or I'm like whatever. It's it's so easy to fall into that and um and to glorify it to each other, and and like and everyone's secretly like, I don't really want to do that anymore. But they keep but they keep it. You know, yeah. But you feel like if you're not doing that, then nobody has nobody has a problem really like kind of slacking a little bit on the job when they're um answerable to a boss that they don't really like. But it's like when it's your company and you are not doing everything you can 110% all the time, then you're looking at yourself in the mirror and you're like what's the point? Like, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00: 45:30

Yeah, well, it's something you do very well um is looking at yourself in the mirror. Oh and we've had many conversations on this, but it's and I bring that up because that's its own form of self-care. Right. And it may not look like, you know, spa days and vitamins, but it's a different thing, and it's I find it to be extremely valuable and I have a lot of respect for people that do that. And you are one of those people in the situation of whenever anything is brought to you, or we do, you know, you do have to walk through something, it's like you will sit in it and look at it and own it and be very honest about what your role is in it, and anyone else as well, but it's very you do a really good job of seeing the whole landscape and owning whichever part of it may be yours, and then you know, finding ways how do we get more support here or what do we do to to work through that?

SPEAKER_03: 46:22

And the term self-care is it's not my favorite for all the way that it's like farm to table, it is pretty like that's on potato chip back there.

SPEAKER_00: 46:30

It is, but I found that that's for me, that's the most valuable way to do that is how do I show up, be honest, tell the truth, walk through things, and then when something is hard and I have to look at the mirror to sort of get right with that and be like, you know what, I was wrong here. But you do a really good job with that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 46:48

Yeah, I mean, I I have to say, like, I feel really lucky. I had parents who both were like integrity's in like a non-negotiable, you know? And um they talked a lot about about honesty and accountability and all those kinds of but it was it was just very much like the value of a person is in how they treat other people. And my dad in particular, also kind of a solo operator, he's an architect. He still draws everything by hand, and that's the one thing he would never do is anything that he felt like would impact his integrity, and that's one of the things I respect the most about him because it limited his opportunities in a lot of ways. He could have made a lot more money and done a lot more things, but I think he was always driven by his craft and his creativity and like his relationships and his reputation. And and I watched him honestly get get pretty shafted a number of times. Like he had clients who had tons of money and shafted him on tens of thousands of dollars worth of work, but he never let that change how he operated in the world. And so it's interesting to hear you call it self-care because I would not have categorized it as that at all. But it's like I'm never I'm never really suffering in that way. You know, like I'm never I'm never really feeling like I'm worried about my karmic load, you know?

unknown: 48:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 48:12

Um but yeah, I think one of the honestly one of my biggest challenges um in starting the business was like, or even really considering myself a business person, was that I I kind of had this mentality that like you could either be ethical or be rich, and you couldn't be both. And um and so I or you could be deeply creative or be rich, and it couldn't be both. And so I didn't have a lot of models of people who did something that sort of fed them and then also had accumulated even stability, not wells. Um, but uh yeah, it took a while for me to recognize like that there are people who do that, and like you could do that. And some of it does come down to how you value yourself and your output and whatever. But but I think like what has always been gratifying is the people that are around me and like the relationships both with people on the team and and the clients and stuff. Like I was telling you earlier today, I like still run into people who, you know, I cater their wedding and they're showing me pictures of their kids and they're excited to see me, you know, and that's really cool.

SPEAKER_00: 49:24

Um well, and that integrity thing, like it matters so much to me. It didn't always, right? I went through a lot of things in somewhere that it just became like a like it stuck out more than other things about things that I was passionate about. Even if I'm messy about this or I don't know what I'm doing over here, that part of it was very important to me. But I can remember being I worked for a nonprofit for a couple of years in recovery. It started to be a louder noise in my head that it was a problem that myself and many of our team were exhausted, burnt out, and broke, and doing work that we all loved. And like somewhere in there, like in the beginning, I was just happy to be there and doing the thing, and I got to be in the world that I cared about. And as time passed, it became a louder, it just became a louder noise that like.

SPEAKER_03: 50:09

Also a culture of glorified suffering.

SPEAKER_00: 50:12

And I get a little fiery about it because when I when I ultimately left, it was just like one of my other passions is like finding a problem and solving it. While I can't change the whole world of nonprofit, I just was very clear that I'm gonna step back from this work because I'm I need a minute to like re reassess all of this, but I was very sure that I would come back and that how I would come back later would be different and that it would not I would not have to make that distinction of that one has to cost me the other. Yeah. And I I haven't solved all of that yet. I have ideas in my head and things, but I was just like, I I believe that you can be a person that wants to help people and heal and work in things that you love, and the cost doesn't have to be that you're broke. And like again, depending on the situation, they're all different. But I was just like, this is it's not okay.

SPEAKER_03: 51:02

Mm-hmm.

unknown: 51:03

You know?

SPEAKER_03: 51:03

You know what that makes me think of is a thing that a topic that we haven't really ever talked about, which is a small list, I think. Um but uh there what's funny is I think I I try to see a lot of different perspectives and have a more global view of just the options for existence, I guess. But sometimes I'm really surprised by the things that I just take for granted as like this is how things are.

SPEAKER_01: 51:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 51:34

And um I have long been kind of obsessed with this woman named Reshma Sajani. She founded a nonprofit called Girls Who Code because she was at all these like coding competitions and realized that all of the kids that were involved in these things were boys. And she was like, the future is in computers and data and internet, and there are no female voices in line to be part of this conversation. So she started that nonprofit. And then during COVID, um, she had this, you know, killer team that she's like hanging out with, you know, Michelle Obama and um Melinda Gates, and that's her sphere, right? But she saw that like even these incredibly badass, well-resourced, amazing women were floundering because there was just no institutional support for them to be able to have a career and also be parents. And the conversation and the burden of solving that is always on moms. And she just basically was like, you are not failing. The system has failed you. It is a system that is designed for you to fail. And in order to continue to operate in a way that services the people who are in the wings of it, like you believing that it's your own failure is the key to it, right? And I was like, oh my God, you know, and it literally like rewired my brain. I was like, shit, it's so true because you look at all of the policies and the structures and everything, it's it's impossible to beat it, right? And um, and there are so many things like that. And so I think it's it's similar when you're looking at like these avenues that are or these industries that feel like they have this sort of impenetrable cultural foundations, like, you know, hospitality restaurants are always gonna be fucked up. They're always gonna be, you know, rife with misogyny and drug use and you know, usurist practices and whatever. And then you have people on the side of nonprofit who are just like, if you want to do this work that matters to you, this is the bill you have to pay. And it's it's not often, I think when you when you have been in those industries and you're steeped in them and everyone is saying the same script, it can be hard to kind of see the forest for the trees. And like when you say things like, I feel like I should be well paid and work for a nonprofit, people are like, ha ha. Yeah, you know, yeah. And it's like ridiculous. But you have to have those conversations. And um and any anybody who's been perceived as sort of a like disruptor or whatever has come from that. And but it's just it's interesting how like even really thoughtful, intelligent people can operate in a broken system and totally believe that like that's just the way it is and the way that it will always be.

SPEAKER_00: 54:54

Um and I think at the first time I had that thought where I could, you know, I grew up in a system and then I went to college and checked off boxes and got a job and resume and built like all of that stuff. Um, and then there came a point in which I ended up working from home, which was I had been teaching, whatever, and a bunch of things happened. And I ended up working for this woman who lived in California. Um, and I'm working from home, and she ran a business and I was like a right-hand person. Um, and it started from me literally my first task that she gave me when she hired me was to organize her blog posts. I like chronologically put links to all of them, the titles like make us. I'm like, great. And it started there, and then I spent five years with her. And I had other clients that she had introduced me to later and had more than one business I was behind. And I learned so much about how much everything is made up. Yeah. And really, I was like, you just make up things, and then you slap a price on something and people buy it. And I mean, I you can go to the extremes with that. I mean, there were people that were selling coaching packages, which is just a phone call once a month for many thousands of dollars, and people would buy it. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying it helped me to change this like lock-in grid system that I learned everything in to be like to ask questions. Be like, well, well, can it be different? I don't know. Says who, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 56:19

Um but that's well, and also that your value can change dramatically based on the room you're in.

SPEAKER_00: 56:23

Yeah. But it but it made me think differently about how this all works and set like says who, and I can't do that, you know? And and yes, within certain structures, and I think you can you can try to take on the whole system of nonprofits as a whole, which seems like a difficult job. Um, but even just changing the way you think about something or how you approach something, or how can I I was in restaurants for years when I lived in Colorado, and how can I give and coach and teach while I'm a while I'm a server? And I would find myself in the corner of a room with a younger person and would come talk to me about stuff and be like, hey, can I talk to you? And for me, that's that's its own rebellion, the most beautiful kind of like, you watch me, we're gonna make this different. And I don't, I do not have all of the building blocks to get there in this moment. But I have a lot of thoughts and a lot of drive. And I think when something comes from within you and pulls you forward, that whatever you call it, passion, when you care about something so much, whatever that thing is, when it keeps you up at night, when it like I get up in the middle of the night sometimes and half asleep, write notes about whatever came into my head that look like I was drunk in the morning because I can't even tell. Yeah. But it's just it's it's things like that that I care so much about making a difference.

SPEAKER_02: 57:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 57:51

Right. And and whichever avenue that is for you, whether it's culinary or whether it's, you know, mine happens to be in recovery. But how do we challenge that in a way that's like, and I have uh something else is like I I don't love resistance. I don't want to battle against and rage against the thing. It's just not my style of doing things. Um and in that I always have found it feels resistant, like I'm pushing against the thing versus how can I think differently? How can I create a different space for this? What if we did it this way? And sort of opening pockets of other ways to think and exist and function that maybe aren't there yet. I don't know. It just I'm so I'm so interested in it. It's like the the thing that I can't not do.

SPEAKER_03: 58:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 58:33

You know?

SPEAKER_03: 58:34

Well, and it's also there's something to be said for like you know, if you're having to fight that hard and there's that much resistance to something, then like at what point do you say like I'm not in the right room or I'm not I'm not like talking to the right people. Because like I do think there are there are all in any industry anything that you want to do, there's there's some gatekeeper type people. There's like um these these chosen ones that we've all sort of elevated to being the the standard of that we're all aspiring to, sometimes they're worthy of that and sometimes they're not. But I think that you can be in a space where, again, like your idea doesn't track to this one person.

SPEAKER_01: 59:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 59:25

And they don't see what you see. But if they're one of the people that is within whatever space that you want to be in has a louder voice than other people, if they don't see what you see, you're very inclined to be like, well, I guess this doesn't work or this doesn't make sense or whatever. But you could have a call the next day with somebody else who's like, Oh, I let's do it. I see it, you know. Um, so I remember like there were several of those sort of moments, like you're saying, of like it's all made up, where um I was just convinced that like everyone else was good at business and I did not know business. I did not understand what business was. And then um, you know, I got in this uh like sort of um catalyst program that was designed to help entrepreneurs scale their businesses after a certain sort of like growth inflection point, right? And I was in the room suddenly all my whole context had been hospitality for years and um you know it's a little bit of a bad news bears situation. You know, like there's a lot of people just kind of fumbling their way through like big hearts and you know you have to be you have to be somewhat insane to go into restaurants because like it's insanely hard and low profit margins and people we all acknowledge this about ourselves, you know. But um so I go in this room with like you know people who are uh CPAs and um you know financial advisors and lawyers and the one guy who had like a decorative concrete installation company. I don't know. But all these people that seemingly were doing bigger numbers and were more professional or more experienced or whatever than me. And um like you said I was not gonna be talking in that room or so I thought. And then as they really started talking and opening up I was like oh God they have all the same problems. They have all the same insecurities you know like their shit looks great on paper but they have no idea what they're doing. You know or they would talk about this one thing that was keeping them from the next step in their business and it was so obvious to me. You know it was like and it was almost almost always a people problem. And that's when I realized like oh that people is what I do. You know it's like um and like business is people and relationships and all this stuff. And um so all of a sudden I was like oh wow there is literally nothing was stopping me like there's nothing holding me back except for like my perception of like where I fit in this thing. And I remember like when we first started talking about getting investors like Lindy had to like really hold my hand on that because I was just like what do you mean you want to ask someone for$50,000? Are you nuts? You know? And um we had one conversation where they're like well we were thinking more like a hundred and I was like you know like I almost yaked on the table. I was like what do you mean? And um but yeah it's like another person was like pass and then that person was like I'd like to give you double what you're asking you know so it is it is an interesting exercise to try to be constantly like am I in the right in the right room? Am I talking to the right people?

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:37

Well and to to trust yourself in the process of the thing that is talking to you whatever it is and however it looks even if there's not a map for it you don't have a someone that's gone first right to to go back to what we talked about to listen to when do I need to learn? Where do I need to you know get counsel and to be open to whether or not that counsel looks like what you thought it was going to look like or what you thought you needed. But it's the beauty in immersing yourself in experiences with people that are different than you. What can I learn here? And also I've had to turn down the volume on other people.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:11

Oh that's my next big plateau or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:14

And it's hard it's hard, right? Especially if it's people that you put on a pedestal for one reason or another, whether it's personal that you care about them or it's you've put them on a professional pedestal because they've done X, Y, or Z. Um but to be able to like know the difference between like constructive criticism and when something is useful and when someone just doesn't see the vision that you see and that that's their own limitation and I'm gonna go this way while you're doing that.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:44

I think I maybe this I read um Ina Garden's memoir recently and she was talking about this experience where like she had never trained as a chef. She had never I don't think even worked in a restaurant she bought barefoot contessa out of like a backpage ad in a newspaper and taught herself how to do all of it and then basically got bored and kind of like sold it to the employees I think but people had been asking her to do a cookbook and she was like no no no no no but then she decided she wanted to do it and uh she got really involved in like the art direction and the layout and they were all like no no no no no this is not what you do. We don't want you here like she was like my fucking book what are you talking about? Um and then it was this like smash success. Actually this was such a cool thing. She's like all serious cookbooks right of like serious chefs um were these compendiums of like 500 recipes and they were all in tiny font and like typewritten and there were no pictures. She was like I learned to merchandise like everything about what made Barefoot Contessa so successful was that like people eat with their eyes first and they walked in and were like holy shit I need to eat that right now. And she was like why wouldn't you apply the same logic to a cookbook and she was really one of the first people to do that. And so then she's at one of her incredibly chic parties uh in the Hamptons with I think it was Richard Avedon like this you know lionized photographer like one of the best and he said he had looked at her book and she asked oh she was about to do her second one and she asked him what he thought of it and he said it was one of the most hideous books that he'd ever seen he said he said it something about how he said it in a loving way and instead of being like immediately super crushed she was like sit down with me and walk me through it. Show me every part of what you don't like and why it doesn't work for you and da da da and then she said I could have taken his advice and completely re you know revised my approach to the second book because he's a genius. You know he's a legendary person in his field and she's like but then I realized like he's fashion and like high art and like it's very cerebral and like chic and whatever and like that's not it that has it has no resemblance on like what I'm trying to do. So she just threw it all in the trash and I was like what like that just blew my mind because when she said I could have let it crush me I was like that's exactly what I would have done. Like I would have probably gone to live in a cave somewhere she I don't know it's just her like her moxie is unparalleled.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:42

Well I aspire to that level of beautiful yeah and I think it it does something to me with um like when you get into this face of um I just lost my train of thought right there.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:58

I do that all day every day um wait what did you just say Moxie honey no but um but throwing out what other people Yeah you were kind of saying take what's useful and turn down the volume on what doesn't align. Yes but like staying true to what is driving you what is the thing that you know and need to do more than other people because like you know I do think that energy if you can protect it is the motor behind everything. I think that's the thing that people are drawn to and um and one of the most surprising rewarding things of this business being around for eight years and where it is now and everything is like the fact that so many other people get it and identify with it and like believe in the concepts and the idea of what it is enough to want to like dedicate themselves to it. There's plenty of people for whom it's sort of a gig and that's fine. But there's a whole lot of people who put their heart and soul and energy and intelligence and integrity and whatever in service of that thing. And that's like incredibly moving to me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:16

Well and I agree with you you know we talked about that the other day because I was thinking about something that I was working through and I was like when I consider things I think of you and that like you gave me something that's precious that's yours that and other people gave that to me too and I take that very seriously in how I navigate anything that I'm doing that that that matters right um but where I where I lost track and found my way back. Thank you for that um was that like even when I you know when I talk about how I think about recovery, right? Because that's the thing that I want to build the things that when I've read into all these things that I don't work for me or I have questions about or I'm like well I don't what do I have to agree with it like just because this is the system that has been set forth before and there can be a lot of good in all of those systems. But there's just some holes in which I'm like I don't know about this, you know? And what keeps me going is for a long time I would shut that down and be like, oh but this is the way that everybody does it. So we're gonna go back to doing that. And then I I let it be okay that I had questions and I started to talk about it. And I found that when I talked about it that there were other people that had those questions too. And so I sort of I think it's what helps me back me is that if if I have thoughts about this or this isn't working for me or I consider like is there a better way to do this someone else has that problem. You know, and they maybe nobody I've ever met, but someone out there is having that same thought I am hardly individualistic in this problem, whatever it is. And the more I keep acting on that and talking and then sort of living it out loud, the more I get validated in people coming up to mute and be like me too, can we talk about this? You know, whatever the thing is but it's sort of you know when I get into like confidence comes from evidence right the more evidence I have because I've chosen to follow my white rabbit so to speak and then voice it and then I get the mirrored back of like oh me too from this thing then I get more confidence and then I can keep going. Right. And so it's not a perfect system but it helps you in the face of all of the shadows that kind of come in and whether they intentionally tell you that it's not gonna work or that you're not good enough or whatever the thing is or whether it's like subconsciously kind of picked up in here that like no I am and I can and I'll figure it out. And it may not look anything like what anyone believes it could, but there's something here because it's still talking to me.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:44

And you know what is like and it's just so crucial in the conversation about which voices to listen to is that I think there will be voices who tell you you can't you know it that's not how it is it can't be done whatever whatever a lot of times those are the voices of people who are benefiting from the way that that system is currently set up. I see what you did there. Um but and I don't even think it's always that conscious of a manipulation. Yes agree it's just like it's not currently their lived experience or they've drunk the Kool-Aid to the point where they're like well I had to do this I had to you know go through the hazing to get where I am so everyone does too. In some ways it's easier to rebel against those voices the ones that are the hardest are the ones that are people telling you you can't, it's not possible, whatever, from a place of like protection. Yes. Where they think that they are you know looking out for your best interest and they don't want you to get hurt and they don't want you to fail and be embarrassed or whatever it is. They want you to be safe.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:05

And when those are people that you love and trust and you know that they love and trust you or even just people that like you believe are coming from a place of good intention it's it's easier to like flip a bird at someone who's like trying to keep you down than it is to turn down the voice of someone who loves you and cares about you. Because and especially like someone who sees you in a lot of other ways it's it's harder to sort of parse that out. And you know I remember having this revelation in college of like my mom and I are insanely close and she knows me better than anyone on the planet. And so if she said something a suggestion or I don't think that's a good idea or whatever, I was like, oh okay and I would just not do it, you know? And I remember missing out on something I really wanted to do because she get that feedback. And it actually was a thing where I it caused this like rift between a good friend of mine because I had said I was going to do this thing and then I di backed out and she was really bummed and and I remember thinking like wait a minute I really wanted to do that. Why did I what it was one of the first times that I really was like she does have my best interest at heart. She absolutely believed that she was being helpful and supportive and the whatever and it was also not the right thing for me. And I was just like oh God you know like and it was one of the first moments that I really felt like oh I'm on my own now you know in bit ways both beautiful and scary. But I was like I can make a different decision for myself and we will still be fine.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:48

Well and I love that you brought that up because that's I agree with you that that's almost more dangerous of a dream crusher than the people that are like straight direct naysayers. And I had to I came to a point where I I realized that was happening with people that loved me and not at all intentionally but just the like the fear of I want you to be safe and I don't want you to get hurt and I don't want you to be disappointed if it doesn't go the way that you really hope it does whatever the thing was. Um and so I what I ended up doing was I got quiet. And I I realized I can't share that's not a thing that I I can't share my dreams with everyone. Not everyone can go that road with me. And that's okay. Right. And and so I had to sort of um like who are my people for this particular thing. And it's a very small number of people and that you either have to be able to like hold space for the dream that I have to exist, like the potential of it no matter what it is or how big or scary it is like if you can hold that conversation and listen and not put anything on it, right? And and just like leave space for it to breathe, I can share it. Or my favorite is someone who can pull me higher. Can you pull me higher than my own dreams and sort of give me the vision of like well what if what if you could you know like even better. And it's not about whether I do it or not. It's about the field of potential. And so that number of people is is very small that I will actually go into specifics about it for there's a lot of people I will say I'll I have a larger group of people that I will sort sort of vaguely share dreams with and not get into the detail because they still very much want to cheer me on, but maybe can't hold the vision in the way that I can but it's it was a lesson learned. I think the first time I learned it I was in teaching and I was leaving teaching to go do the job with the woman that I said that I would do which was I was so excited I got to work from home I got to be in the back end of a business it was so I was so excited to do this thing and teaching had not been had not taken me where I thought it was going to go. And I remember the day that I left like teaching for good I had given my resignation letter to seven different people and they were it was like our principal our vice principal our superintendent I was working in special edit at the time so superintendent special it was like all those and then the HR lady and no one and I had worked side by side with several of these people very closely for different projects that I was working on and no one responded except for the HR lady who had to because she needed me to fill out some stuff. But but in that same process I was again like I'm just I would wish people well just in my own doesn't matter what I want to do but nothing. And then as I said goodbye to teachers I got some some flack and sort of passive aggressively like nobody who was outright mean but but I learned that like sometimes if you're doing something differently or you're you're reflecting to people that they might you know things that are their own fears or things they wish they could do whatever the thing is and then I would talk about like I'm leaving the I'm leaving the field that they've all chosen to be in and I'm very excited. It was just there was a lot of layers and there was a lot of layers to that but I realized that like not everyone is going to be happy for me. And that's okay also but it was a lesson in I was so excited to go do the thing and I kept trying to share that with people and getting met like fallen short on nobody could be in that excitement with me. And I was like oh this isn't this isn't the place you do that. And that was my first first lesson with it. And then since then I've had a couple other iterations of just like oh like my big dreams aren't for everyone. And so I keep that group small and the people that I really can share it with are just like I said either they can really listen and hold that and be like let me know how that goes. I'm so excited for you and I'm next to you the whole time like I don't know what you're doing but I'm here for it. Or people that can be like that's all you're gonna do. Like what else can we do here? You know that kind of it it's not about whether or not it's the right thing. It's about the like boost of like I'm gonna I think we can go even further just to help expand the field of your own vision. Yeah and quite literally the the pulse of potentiality that is possible.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:24

Yeah thank you for sitting down and spending time an absolute delight thank you so much for being here it means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me head on over to NataniAlison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday we'll see you next week