EP15: Finding Your Voice | The Healing Power of Radical Self-Honesty with Reed Hendricks

This week, I sat down with Reed Hendricks for one of the most moving conversations I’ve ever hosted. We trace his journey from the silence of childhood trauma to a life guided by radical authenticity. Reed shares openly about how gaslighting led to years of people-pleasing and compartmentalization, and the profound internal work—rooted in sobriety—that allowed him to finally find his voice and establish healthy boundaries. 

The heart of Reed’s healing is his commitment to full accountability. We discuss how his willingness to own his mistakes became the bridge to repairing relationships and breaking painful generational cycles. Today, Reed maintains a beautiful, unified extended family unit with his ex-wife—a powerful testament to what is possible when we choose to be real rather than right. 

I am deeply moved by Reed’s presence: he is a man who lives in the pause, leads with vulnerability, and chooses connection over transaction. He shares a guiding truth that stayed with me: "I never have to live in a secret again because I have a voice." If you’ve ever felt the need to hide your true self, Reed’s story is a vital reminder that self-acceptance is the path to your greatest freedom. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

There are moments in life that split us open. Quiet unraveling, such as frame, or truth, we didn't know we need it. Until we had no choice. This podcast is about those moments. It's about the turning points that change us. The things I wish someone had told me that I only understand in looking back. Come on in. You belong here. And we're gonna talk about all of it. I'm your host, Natanya, and this is what I didn't know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Reed Hendricks. I love this episode so much, first and foremost, because Reed showed up immediately from the first minute that he sat down to being willing to give from a place of service. And how can he talk about all of these things in order to give other people permission to do the same work and to keep healing? And I couldn't be more of a fan of that. Um we talk about taking complete accountability and finding the courage to set healthy boundaries. And we also have a really full circle conversation on using your voice, specifically going from a place of compartmentalizing things and staying silent when you're younger to finding, using, and owning your voice as a full adult, which is just it's just a really beautiful conversation. I can't wait for you to hear it. Read. Thank you so much for being here. I'm excited. I'm coming through the screen at you.

SPEAKER_03: 1:47

That makes two of us.

SPEAKER_01: 1:50

Um thank you for saying yes to this. I never expect when I ask that I will get a yes, and I'm always honored. And you were very gracious in your response. And I was rereading um when I when I invite people to this, I have them fill out a form just to, you know, schedule it. And there's a question there and it says, Is there anything you specifically want to talk about outside things that I want to talk about? And you said you listed a bunch of things, and then you said you're a safe space.

SPEAKER_03: 2:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 2:19

And I thought that was really beautiful.

SPEAKER_03: 2:22

Um, I I appreciate that because that's exactly what you are to me. So it was a no-brainer. Soon as soon as you asked, it was yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:30

Um so where do you want to begin? You have a really beautiful family story on multiple levels. I want to start with can we go back a little bit farther?

SPEAKER_03: 2:42

We can go anywhere you want. I'm an open book.

SPEAKER_01: 2:45

Cool. I want to talk a little bit about gaslighting.

SPEAKER_03: 2:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 2:50

Is that something you feel been talking about? Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 2:52

Abs absolutely. We I mean that that takes us way, way back. That fortunately or unfortunately, that is something that my family has executed with precise application my entire life. The the first first form of it that comes to mind is with religion. And that was always a really tough topic for me. Um because I I need tangible proof. And I didn't know it at the time, and I certainly know it now, but I needed tangible proof. So the stories, and and I always I have to throw in this disclaimer, I respect anybody's position on absolutely any aspect of religion. In fact, I love hearing about it because that kind of dispels a lot of things that were never spoken to me about. For example, when whenever I ask questions about what was said or um what's in the particular book that my family uh subscribes to, I was always taught it's disrespectful to ask questions and this is just the way that it is, and this is this is what we believe in. And I thought, when you say we, you're including me, but I don't know what they're talking about. And and as a kid, I can remember um asking questions like, well, why isn't everybody this religion? Or um, how come nobody else has been resurrected? Or why has nobody else walked on water? And and in asking those questions, I was always made to feel stupid for asking them. So at a young age, that's how I had my voice taken away from me. You know, I didn't want to be disrespectful to my parents, and everybody else seemed to get it, but I didn't get it. So I just went with the program and thus began what I think is the foundation and people pleasing.

SPEAKER_01: 4:43

Yeah. Um yeah, I had a similar experience with religion as well, and I was that same human that was like, hold up. So can we talk about this? Because I don't so you're saying that this and this happened, and I just had a lot of questions, right? Um and I don't I don't know that I think mine was met a l a little bit differently than yours was met, but it was still the same construct of like this is the thing that we all do. And questions weren't they weren't unwelcome, but there was always sort of a vague deflect of an answer, which I mean there's a lot that goes into any religion. Um but so yeah, I'm curious as to how that has gone for you since then.

SPEAKER_03: 5:27

Well, that for that aspect, if you fast way, way forward, knowing, you know, I'm I am an open book about my recovery and my past and my drug addiction, it it took it took uh um December 19th, I'll have eight years clean. It took thank you. Uh yeah, go me. Um but it but it took the the first two years, Natanya, of recovery were all just BS. I just, you know, I was I was clean, but I wasn't in recovery. I wasn't doing any work. And I had overlooked the aspect that I get to choose what a higher power is. That was the first time I wasn't gaslit about making those decisions was surrounded by people who were very similar, had very similar stories to me that I could identify with, but now I'm being encouraged, find your own higher power, whatever it is. And yes, yeah, I was told it could be a doorknob, it it could it could be a book. Um and I and I understood why they were saying that it was giving me the freedom to actually choose. And and so I did, and I had multiple versions of what a higher power was, just as long as it was more loving and caring than myself. That was a a truth that I was denied and trying to figure out who I am and what I wanted to believe in. So that to me was incredibly cleansing. Then I had scenarios to go back. You know, I have I have older brother issues, and I love my older brother, and I mean that. But there were scenarios where I was made to believe that I said things that I didn't say or I acted a certain way, or a big one for us was I'm going to tell you something about your father or your sister or your brother, but you have to keep this in confidence. Don't betray my confidence. That was the line. Don't betray my confidence in you. I hadn't I didn't have the capacity to understand that you're asking me to keep your secrets, you're asking me to lie to you. So now, who am I supposed to believe? I can't, I can't, but I thought it was a badge of courage. Like you can tell me anything, and I'm not gonna say anything. And that eventually led to, you know, if you skip fast forward, to an OD where where I almost punched my own ticket. And and now, let's go to the current version of myself, even this past weekend with Thanksgiving. I don't keep your secrets. And and if somebody is going to tell me something and I'll keep it on my family, I will stop them in their tracks and say, just understand, before you tell me what you want to tell me, if my brother says, Did you and mom talk about this, or did you and anybody talk about this? My answer is yes, we absolutely did. And I will tell you what I said, but if you want to know what they said, I don't and all of a sudden I it when I first started doing that, setting up a healthy boundary, it was you've changed. I'm like, damn right, I've changed. And and thank God I did. So really every version of me that I've become today is 100% correlation to working the steps, working the program, being able to say no. That's what I didn't know back then. That I that I can say no and not to associate guilt, unimposed guilt on me. I didn't commit any crime by saying no to you. I didn't premeditate your unhappiness. It's not it's not my problem. Learning to say no to all of that, uh, to put an end to the gaslighting, and then teaching my daughters how to do that allows me to break the cycle. And that's that's huge for me. And not easy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 9:17

No, not easy. I have so many questions I had to calm down my brain there for a minute. I was like, I have to I have to think a direction. Um I do. I want to talk about your daughters for a little bit and how specifically staying in the same thread of gaslighting, of saying no, how do you come from a past where that was put on you? And I'm saying that very much on purpose, right? Because you're at whatever age that was, you know, you're put in a corner and you don't know what you don't know. And so you're just trying to be a good brother or kid or whatever, not realizing that the weight that you just ended up carrying. So how do you, having learned and overcome and worked through some of that yourself, how do you teach that to a child?

SPEAKER_03: 10:04

That that is a outstanding question and it's it's a it's a two-part answer. My when my daughters were born, I was I was not clean. I was going through this scenario of using maintenance drugs to get off of drugs, but I was using it to just calm everybody else down, like I'm I'm on Suboxin or I'm you know uh so I didn't do that in the very beginning. I was very much of the mindset of, you know, I'm the dad and you know, I'm one of the breadwinners. So I I did what I was taught. Uh-huh. When I got clean and I went through a divorce with Yvonne, which which I played a massive part in, I had to go back and start to give suggestions about scenarios with our daughters. And it was really difficult because my ex-wife is not in recovery, and she's a wonderful human being. She's also very strong-minded, and I respect and love that about her. But I was able to see patterns that I used to participate in, and I would have to start by making suggestions to Yvonne of either of our two daughters and saying, here's this scenario, why don't we ask open-ended questions as to why they said that or why they uh have these feelings or what could be different, instead of just coming out and telling them they're punished and they're wrong. Um it was really, really hard to be able to get to a point of face-to-face open communication with first Yvonne and then translating it to our girls because I participated in that whole, hey, we need to punish them for this. Never, never trying to get to the root of the problem or why they're acting out. I mean, kids don't know any better. And and it's as a to me, it's a parent's job to guide them, you know, from the mistake. How am I going to chastise my daughters for something that I did for years and accepted for years? So we would start to get on the same page of, you know what, when I was your age, I did that too. And here's how it hurt other people, and here's how it hurt me in the process. And it took a really long time. But the dialogue that we have now with our girls, utterly amazing. Not always smooth, but it is open. It's open and it's honest. And we talk about all of our flaws together. We identify the problem and we all participate in the solution. That's not how I grew up. It was, you know, it was a backhand, a punishment, something getting taken away, a violent beating by my brother. None of the good things that I learned how to do today.

SPEAKER_01: 13:02

So how do you um I'm curious, and I have questions about your relationship with her, because that's such a beautiful story, and I do want to get into that. But before I get into that, I would like to know the first the first time you brought that up to her of like, hey, can we do this differently? How did that go?

SPEAKER_03: 13:18

Exactly the same way as my parents. You have changed. And tongue in cheek, I don't know if I like this. I don't she actually said, I don't know if I like this version of you. And and I and I never I never asked why, because it's not that her, it's not that her feelings don't matter to me. It's just that I'm not going to change who I am for anyone. I I used to do that. I would compartmentalize myself to be allowable in your world. I don't do that. And and it's again that that that's how it would suffer. Um we went we went back and forth a few times, and the more I practiced a spiritual principle, and I stopped talking, and I allowed Yvonne the space because she deserves that space to express herself, we kind of work that out. And it's it is a lot better now. We still, you know, we still I wouldn't say struggle. We don't always see eye to eye, but in the end, we are on the same page. And that's that's huge. Because it wasn't always it wasn't always like that.

SPEAKER_01: 14:28

No. Um can you tell me a little bit more about when you said comp compartmentalizing, what has that been like for you over the years? Like where you have to stuff things or put yourself in a box?

SPEAKER_03: 14:41

Hated it. Uh absolutely hated it, but but but I had become so I had be become so good at making what was important to me of the littlest importance, just as long as I could get as l as long as I could get you to like me or not be confrontational. I didn't know I didn't know how to fight. And fight isn't maybe that's the wrong word. I didn't know how to effectively communicate to a resolution. I had to win. And and if and if I couldn't win, then I would go back to that little version of me where I had no voice and I would I would just fold like a long chair and I would suffer the consequence.

SPEAKER_01: 15:23

And yeah, that's yeah, no, it was as I have a lot of the same, so I'm just feeling it as you're talking. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03: 15:31

That's why we get along so well.

SPEAKER_01: 15:33

Where do you think where do you think you lost your voice?

SPEAKER_03: 15:38

Like when you were young. I uh yeah, I I would say I can't this is this is a direct result of step work. Um my my my father, not me, not my brother, was very successful. And and um where I I have determined that I lost we had a very big backyard with a lot of really nice things, and one of them was a miniature baseball field. And my my older brother developed a lot faster than I did. He was outstanding at sports. I eventually became good, but here's the scenario we're in the backyard, I'm in the outfield, and my father would pitch to my brother, my brother would be crushing, crushing home runs. I wanted that so bad. And he would pitch to me and I couldn't do it. I would blame my father for pitching bad. And my brother would be making fun of me, and because I feel like I'm ganged up and I cannot accept I'm just not there yet, I would run to my mother and I would say, Dad's pitching better to Grant, and my mother would come out and yell at my father, and then my brother would beat the shit out of Are we allowed to curse?

SPEAKER_01: 16:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 16:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 16:56

Thank you for asking.

SPEAKER_03: 16:57

My brother would beat the shit out of me a half an hour later, and then I would go to my dad, and then my dad would have an altercation with my brother, which would lead to a cycle of me just getting beat up, and that's when I stopped using my voice. Because if I said anything, it ended up with a beating, and I'm not talking about like a punch in the stomach. I have had I've had my jaw wired shut, I've had six vertebrae crushed, I've been hit with the butt end of a hockey stick, um, to the point where the school almost called CPS on my parents, wondering like what is happening with this kid. My voice, my voice was not worth the violence that would eventually instead of just but I didn't have any tools back then. I I was a kid whose feelings were hurt. And rather than rather than just say, hey, maybe I'm not there yet, I had to blame, I had to blame you. It's your fault. You know, never mind.

SPEAKER_01: 17:59

In your defense also, if as a child, if you don't have an adult that's standing up for you or showing you that it's okay that you're not there yet, you know, like what if if you don't have someone to model that for you, what else would you know?

SPEAKER_03: 18:13

There were times in complete fairness, my dad would say, I am trying so hard to pitch to you like I'm pitching, and he was. He was. But but it wasn't it wasn't good enough for me. You know, it would have been in retrospect, maybe it would have been nice to tell my brother to stop teasing and hey, maybe give him some pointers. Yeah. But but that didn't happen. It was it was just allowed to happen because that's what boys do, right? That's you know, we don't cry like girls, we don't throw like girls, we don't act like girls, like all these negative connotations. And now I have people like you in my life, some of the strongest, most brilliant, beautiful souls that are a direct result of this fellowship. You know, I wish back I wish back then I had the strength of a girl, but I did not.

SPEAKER_01: 19:01

Yeah. That was a beautiful thing to say.

SPEAKER_03: 19:04

It's the truth.

SPEAKER_01: 19:05

How do you feel like that that not having a voice and compartmentalizing also goes along with people pleasing when you were young?

SPEAKER_03: 19:13

All of it, Natanya. All of it. All I wanted to stop the beatings. I wanted to stop confrontation. I wanted you to like me. And I learned that that is very ego-centered behavior. To me, ego was always I'm the best, I'm this, I'm that. That wasn't the definition of ego that I fell into. It was I'm defined by what you think of me. So if you tell me that you liked my hoodie or my hat, I'd go out and buy ten more. And and I'd prop and I'd probably buy you ten more because as long as I'm giving you something, the transaction will be that you'll like me. And it it had it had nothing to do with anything other than I will do anything to get you to like. Me because if you really knew who I was, there's no way you could like me. So that's what I did.

SPEAKER_01: 20:07

So when you got to the point, we're gonna fast forward again towards near future. When you got to the point where you were willing to look at this and sit down with it, acknowledge it, work through it, when is the first time that you felt a shift where you either gave yourself permission or you started to feel like maybe this doesn't have to be that same story?

SPEAKER_03: 20:28

Um with my second sponsor, when when we got to a certain step number four, which I was deathly afraid of, I admit well, I because you know uh Yes. When I when I started, it was ooh, wait till you get to step four. So now I'm petrified of step four. And my sponsor is like, please, here's your suggestion. Forget about this is one of the most beautiful things you will ever do for yourself. And I and I got to work and I did not beat myself up. What I learned was accountability, my part in every scenario. And when I went back to that, when I went back to that ball field, I was able like I felt horrible that I that I did that to my dad. And and and that once I was accountable for that and that domino effect, I was able to forgive myself. I can't go back to the past and change a single thing. I don't belong in the past, and if I could go back, I don't belong there anyway, and I don't want to go.

SPEAKER_05: 21:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 21:32

So I got I got to heal that that little that little kid on that field, and I got to move forward. And I actually made that amend to my father, who was in tears. You know, he he waited. I'm terrible at math, you know, he wait, he he waited like 48 years to get I don't think he expected it. He had moved on. But the fact that I was able to acknowledge my partners, I you know, that's how I get my voice back by by stopping the finger pointing, being accountable, and giving an altruistic, I am so sorry for that moment, you know, and not wanting anything in return. Not every apology, no matter the time frame, um, should be accepted. It's you know, I I accept that as well. But that's that's how I live now.

SPEAKER_00: 22:23

That's a lot though. Did you physically actually go back to the ball field?

SPEAKER_03: 22:28

No, no. Um in my head, yeah. The um, you know, my parents sold the house probably like nine years ago. So I drive I drive past it a lot and I and I think about it, but that was metaphorical in my head.

SPEAKER_01: 22:44

That was really beautiful. I'm just gonna sit with that for a second.

SPEAKER_04: 22:47

Please do.

SPEAKER_01: 22:49

One of the reasons I asked you to be on this on this show and and people in general that I surround myself with, the thing they have in common is that when I when I really have respect for someone, the thing that they all kind of carry the thread among all of them is the willingness to turn and confront yourself, tell the truth, be honest, face the thing, take, you know, take responsibility for that thing. And that and that goes into, you know, even you and I have had other conversations. And I'll be like, hey, do you want to look at this thing? Like, are you willing to sit with me in something uncomfortable? And you say yes. Right. And it's that really beautiful willingness to be like, to be able to say, I was wrong, or I didn't know as much as I could have. And I still like to to own your own part of that. But it's something that I have a lot of admiration for.

SPEAKER_03: 23:44

Thank you. I appreciate you have you're you're the same exact way. How freeing is that to how that that on the and I stole this, so it's not mine. But um, you know, that that awkward moment of of realization or acceptance, whatever it is, I can't speak for you, but for me, I live, uh I want to live on the other side of awkward. That that's where I've been hiding the entire time by an by an inability to be accountable. You know, it was that that is a beautiful place that I was so scared to go to. Because what do you mean? I I gotta look in the mirror at this guy for the rest of my life. And uh sometimes I liked the outside, but I had always hated the inside.

SPEAKER_05: 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 24:35

A mirror does not tell the full story.

SPEAKER_01: 24:38

No, and it's one of the I think, you know, there's certain choices that I've made over this journey that are like the catalyst points of really this one thing. All the rest of it is useful, but this one choice that I made really changed a lot. And one of those for me was when I sat there and decided I'm gonna take 100% responsibility for my own life. Right. And that includes everything in the rearview mirror, everything, even things that happened to me that were not, it doesn't mean blaming yourself, right? Or that that was my fault, but what were my rules in those things at that time, if there were some? Um, where am I still holding myself hostage? Right. From things that maybe I didn't know back then. And how do I sit in that? The mirror is a great metaphor. It's one of my favorites, and tell the full truth.

SPEAKER_03: 25:31

It's it's cathartic. Did did you ever did you ever have your voice taken from you?

SPEAKER_01: 25:37

Um, ooh, I have to answer my own question now. Um You know what? I think I took my voice from myself. I do. And I yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 25:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 25:54

Um you know, when I when I had gotten divorced, one of the things that I was the most upset about was, you know, I'm in the moment of realizing I'm gonna, I'm gonna leave, I was not heartbroken over the decision. I felt a lot of relief. Um I knew it was the right choice, and I didn't have a lot of emotion around the relationship itself. But the thing that I was devastated over, and I remember saying out loud to myself alone on a kitchen floor, um was I am so sorry. And I was talking to me.

SPEAKER_04: 26:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:33

And I was I was like, I am so sorry, and we are never gonna do that again. Because what had happened and what I realized I had done was I had abandoned me. And I had done the compartmentalization and the people pleasing, but nobody made me, you know, and I needed to own that I was trying to fit in. I've thought this is how I was supposed to do life. I thought I have to check off boxes and, you know, watching, watching dysfunctional family members in different relationships growing up, I was trying to get it right. And so I thought, like, if I do this and don't do that, I'm sort of like watching everyone else. This is the right key. This is what this is how I win. And then I flash forward to a decade into that and was like, this isn't, this isn't it. You know, but I think that space of where I had to apologize to me, and it was really, I was apologizing to the little girl that thought that she had to be everything other than what she was to be enough. You know, and it was, I've talked about this before that like I have I've I wanted to be enough so much in some spaces. And then there's a whole record of mine, specifically with men, where I have made myself smaller because I'm too much. Right. So either way, I have to change.

SPEAKER_05: 27:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 27:57

And I can't be me. And so, you know, there's all these times and all these ways that I didn't say something, or I I'm gonna, I'm not, I'm not gonna want this big of a dream. I'm gonna want something smaller because that fits in the context of the framework of what I think he can hold for me. Right. And I'm trying not to hurt him. I'm trying to like, I'm trying to mold myself into this little box. And that was the thing I was the most sad about. It wasn't the relationship. I was sad about things, and I like commitment matters so greatly to me. I took that very seriously. But at the point of which this had already fallen apart, that was the thing I was devastated the most about.

SPEAKER_03: 28:41

Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Just another identification. It's crazy. The um you asked me earlier uh if there was another there is another specific incident that took years for me to talk about. Um, but I was molested over the course of a year and a half. Um, it might have been a little bit longer. There's some trauma in there. So it was by a man who was a coach that I had invited into my parents' house, and ironically, uh it happened during Thanksgiving when I was 11, turning 12 years old. And that was a moment where I had my voice literally stripped of me. And this the circumstances around it are were really unpleasant. One of the most jarring memories is if I close my eyes, I can still smell the alcohol on his breath, I can still feel his hand on my throat, and I can still hear him whispering, you're gonna learn to like it. And none of that was true. Um, and I kept that secret for the better part of you know, 36 years until I heard another individual talk about their experience, and I was like, How did you just say that in a room of strangers? And the response was this is these aren't strangers, this is my family. And it's and it's not my fault that it happened, and this is how I get better. Did you want to talk about it? I'm like, new, and that took another that took another seven or eight months before I finally told that story and and a lot of painful regret because um I never said anything for fear of being uh having a a some sort of horrific tag attached to me. And um and about four years after that whole incident it happened, you know, when it finished it finished, um, he did it again to another boy, and that boy took his life. And I felt responsible for that person's death. And um I carried that with me until I finally told that story. And I knew that kid too. And he was he was younger than me, but we both went to this same camp, and um and that still haunts me to this day. Um but if I don't talk about it, it runs the risk of leaving my memory or or burying it, and I can't do that. Um I wished it was different. I don't know if it would have changed anything. I want to believe that it could, but that that one still hurts to this day. You know, the I'm not going to say anything because you might think this about me, and yeah, that was a that was a brutal one.

SPEAKER_02: 31:40

Yeah. I'm still feeling it.

SPEAKER_04: 31:44

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_02: 31:45

Um I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_04: 31:48

Thank you. I am too.

SPEAKER_01: 31:52

I do want to say I do want to say that the most beautiful thing you said in there was what you said about this is my family.

SPEAKER_03: 32:01

Yeah. Yeah. You know. Yeah. He did he did it again. And um I believe he's in he uh his sentence I think is sixty years. So he's got a lot more time left. And there was a time where I would wish the most heinous thing on the planet could happen to him, and I had to stop that because I can't allow that that energy into into my world. Um, I can't say that I have forgiven him, and I I don't want to be the person who wishes that kind of evil or harm on someone. I will just say I stopped wishing it. And whatever the universe does, the universe will do, but I do take a little little bit of comfort knowing that he will be behind bars where he belongs um to keep the rest of this world safe.

SPEAKER_01: 33:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 33:05

Yeah, it's a it's it's a tough one.

SPEAKER_01: 33:07

It is tough, and I didn't know that about you. And I I like I said, I think I'm sitting in the pain of hearing that.

SPEAKER_03: 33:19

When I see you again, I will um I will show you the the newspaper clipping of his arrest. Uh I will I will not blurt that person's name out on here. I know that's not what this is about, but I I will I will share it with you. It will be healing certainly for me. And your support is also healing.

SPEAKER_01: 33:39

So how do you like n nobody would blame you for for still being enraged, right? How did you get to a space where you, even if we don't call it forgiveness, how do you get to a space? Like, what did you actually do to help take that down a notch so it's not taking over you so much?

SPEAKER_03: 33:58

I I spoke to the individual who motivated me. When I when I got to that point of wanting to talk about it, it was a weak day. I knew this person was at work, and I said, I need to talk to you. That individual left their job and met me at a safe spot and I unloaded all of that. And I'm talking the snot and tears and hyperventilating crying, and they just gave me space. And that's when I realized the longer I hang on to it, I'm going to suffer for it. Yeah. And and the more that I have thoughts of retribution or justice or I I don't control any of that. What what I have is the opportunity to talk about what happened that I did not want and I did not ask for, but I get to heal myself because of it. And and that fellowship that we have is is it's the greatest therapist on the planet. No, and and I was in I was encouraged to find my way through it. Nobody told me forgive. Nobody nobody told me anything. We just talked. That that dialogue is what saved me.

SPEAKER_01: 35:19

Well, and it's you know, forgiveness I think sometimes gets painted as this like, oh, just forgive someone. And like while it's true in the sense that you holding things is harming you to keep that in you for too long. I also don't think it's just that easy. You know, especially when it's stuff like this.

SPEAKER_03: 35:40

It took years. It was not it was it was not overnight. You know, I I can it's a different and I agree with what you said, Natanya. Someone cuts me off, I can forgive you for that. Um and I will forget about that. This this is a different this is a different scenario. It took it took it took years. It took years and a lot of work. Like I didn't it took years. That I don't know how else to word it. I just want I I wanted to be free of of that anger and I mean rage, hate. Um you know, like the things like I I would talk about it, about how I wish this person's demise would be, and I would say things that I had never said in my life, like violent, disturbing.

SPEAKER_00: 36:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 36:34

Like I I don't want to allow that anymore. I don't I, you know, because I'm allowing this person and what happened to me, my disappointment is now an entitlement to become this version of me that I'm just not. And I I'm not a I am not a violent person. And I mean I am a person nonetheless, but oh the things I was saying, Natanya, they were they were ugly. Yeah. So I I could continue to hang on to that ugly part of me, or I could let it go. I chose let it go. Maybe that's the word. I don't I'll I'll never really forgive it, but I I learned to let it go and and I don't bury it in here anymore. It's out there. And do with it what you want, because I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01: 37:26

Even even talking about it though, and the truth of anything is my experience of that when I started telling the full truth, not the censored truth, not the truth that I thought you wanted to hear or that I should say, or that made me look good. I mean the full truth, period. Is when things started to change for me internally. Like I don't know that anyone else would have s seen that I changed that much externally, but I started to I think I started to free myself in talking, like giving voice, literally, back to the voice part of not only the truth of things that happened to me, things I did, shame, guilt, resentment, all the, you know, anger, hard emotions, but also just everything that I was feeling that I didn't have permission to feel.

SPEAKER_03: 38:19

Ooh, that's that just went right through me. That went right through me.

SPEAKER_01: 38:25

Um but telling the truth, even about the hardest, darkest things, has been the most freeing. And whether, you know, some of them I've told in therapy, some I've told to a sponsor, some I've told to a close friend or family, someone that I trusted, um, some I've written down, you know, but like you know, like at this point, to the best of my knowledge, there is not a single thing that I have not spoken somewhere to someone.

SPEAKER_03: 38:59

How many times do you think in your life you have heard and the truth shall set you free? And and and for real, like, and not even giving it a second thought. Agreed. Like it's it's just this is just so somebody dropped that one day, and okay, and yet I'll I'm gonna include you on this. Yeah, no, no true words have ever been spoken for the two of us. It literally set us free.

SPEAKER_01: 39:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 39:30

Oh, all we had to do was be honest.

SPEAKER_01: 39:33

That's it. And I think, you know, what are we afraid of? What were you afraid of? What was I afraid of? Because I think we get to the surface stuff of what people think, right? And then there's also I think the underlying thing, which means like, who am I? If that's what I if that's really the truth, what does that make me? Not what people think, but am I a bad person? Am I awful? Am I a monster? Am I, you know, and you could go down the roads with things that I have thought about myself at different points, but just all the reasons I didn't want to tell the truth and didn't really, you know, I think that's one of the important parts of the steps is when it's not, you're not just telling the truth, it's to another person, like specifically, that you have to like have a witness. And it's something that I've loved in my, in my journey moving forward, is one of the ways I like to give back is to bear witness to other people, to hold space for that and to know like you can talk about that here.

SPEAKER_03: 40:35

Yep. It is that is a beautiful part of our lives. It's so true.

SPEAKER_01: 40:43

Um, but you've done such a great job. Like I said, it's one of the things that I have great respect for you in not only telling the truth to yourself about yourself and about your life, but then consciously making different choices to move forward in a new direction. And one of the things that you talk about frequently that I would love for you to share here is how you have done that with Yvonne.

SPEAKER_03: 41:06

Happily. Um when I when I first came in, I told a half story about our divorce. And it was the part, again, to get you to like me. Uh I I I told a story and it was it was true, but I wanted you to feel a certain way. And and it was my second sponsor, and at this time, we did not have a healthy relationship, and I played a huge, huge, huge part in that. But in order to do that, yeah, in our in our towards the end of our marriage and and during our divorce, I did not talk about the things that I did. I only talked about the things that she did. And it wasn't until my second sponsor had said to me, Wow, that sounds horrible. And he leaned forward. He was like, What'd you do to her? And and I literally two middle fingers and said, Didn't you hear what I just said? He said, I heard every word, and it still sounds horrible. What'd you do to her? And and I was stuck, Natanya, because I had a choice in that moment. I can continue to gaslight and lie, or I could just come clean. And I again snot tears and I dumped it all out. And all of a sudden, I don't even know how to describe what I felt. It was a multitude of different things. And I got to work on, I stopped telling those stories, I started to use her first name only. I talked about all of the good things, and I talked about a lot of the bad things that I did. And I and I told the rooms, I haven't been honest with you. I've told you half truths. It believe me, most of them knew it, but they just they just waited. And all of a sudden I got, wow, man, that's really cool that that you I started to grow because somebody saw a version of me that I couldn't see in myself. And it a multitude of step work, which is literally right over there because I stay, I saved my stepwork. Um, I changed the entire storyline of what I would share about my divorce. I no longer had a conversation about somebody who could never be in the room or never tell their side. I no longer tried to control a narrative to make myself look better. I started to hold myself accountable.

SPEAKER_04: 43:53

And on my fourth year clean, Yvonne and Brian showed up.

SPEAKER_03: 44:04

This woman that I berated and spoke poorly of and used bad words, who had no idea that I did any of that, showed up to celebrate my clean time. And shortly after that, um after the my second round of steps, which I had put her on, it was time to do something for the two of us. And and I spoke to my sponsor in great detail about an in-person amend. And that it was suggested to follow my gut, and I called her and I said, Would it be okay to get 10 minutes of your time? I just I have something that's very important I'd like to say to you. And she said, Of course. Um, come on over. And I said, Well, I can't do it in front of anybody else. She said, All right, we'll sit on, we'll stand on the front lawn. And I went to their home, and and her husband was there, and our daughters were there, and they stayed inside. And I got to stand on her front yard and look her in the face and tell her, I am sorry for any any amount of pain that I caused you or anything that I did to hurt you. I am deeply and profoundly sorry. And that was it. I d I expected nothing in return. What I hoped for that this new version of me would be given the grace to be able to say, I'm sorry, and I did. And we said we love I love you to each other, and it was the kind of I love you where it had nothing to do with physical appearance or or a romantic or inappropriate suggestion. It was I s I see the woman who I was I had involved with, and we shared time, and we created a family, and it got broken, and and an opportunity to put it back together by being able to authentically say, I'm sorry. We didn't do a bullet point of what I had done. She just looked at me and said, Thank you, and I love you too, and we hugged, and I got back in my vehicle and I drove away.

SPEAKER_04: 46:32

It was as much for me as it was for her.

SPEAKER_03: 46:35

We both deserved that moment. Now, you know, we are not best friends, we do not talk every day, but when I went home a few days ago for Thanksgiving, I was in their kitchen on Thanksgiving morning and we were having food and laughing and taking pictures and telling funny stories. And if I go home for Christmas, I will be at their house sharing gifts. Brian, Brian calls me or texts me on my birthday. When our daughters went to college, we all went together and saw the girls off. We we move as an extended family. That's the greatest gift that I get. You know, my life is the greatest gift. But my daughters, my family, Yvonne, Brian, every single person who knows me, you, recovery is the single most important thing of my life. Everything else is a very close second or a 1.1, if you will. Well, because without it, they don't get me. And I don't get me. So but that that's how I I rebuilt the kind of relationship that Yvonne deserves from me and that I deserve from me.

SPEAKER_01: 47:56

That was very well said.

SPEAKER_03: 47:58

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 47:59

How does this version of you that I get to know that people listening get to hear? How do you move forward as a dad?

SPEAKER_03: 48:10

Um that is a girls are your girls are older.

SPEAKER_01: 48:14

They're not, you know.

SPEAKER_03: 48:16

Yeah. Yep. One one just graduated college and now lives full-time in Miami, and the other is a sophomore in college. Um there are times when it's really painful. Um, you you know this. They're my world. And you know, uh, somebody said, you know, your job is to get them to 18. Or I read, you know, in one of my late night scrolls on some some form of uh social media. You spend your entire life teaching your children how to live without you. And then when it happens, it's hard, Tanya. I can't lie, it's hard. I I wanted more time with them over Thanksgiving, but they are these beautiful, smart, strong women, and they have their lives. So I it hurts when I don't get the time that I want, but there is a level of gratitude and immense joy when I see their lives forming and building. And and I have to let that happen because I don't uh that's one of the reasons I came home. You need to spend more time with us, you need to do this, you need to do I'm like, no, I I don't. Um, I got to see the people that like there's one side of my family that still demands and expects certain behaviors. Uh-huh. And I have the opportunity to break the cycle where I tell my girls, look, I love the time I got with you. Go be with your friends, have fun. If you if anything changes, call me. Inside, my my heart hurts because I I I want them to want to spend time with me. But that's that's not how this works. Yeah. So it's hard. It's it's hard. I I don't know if I'm going home for Christmas. I hope they come out here. And if they don't, then I'll I'll see them when I can see them. But there's evidence that Yvonne and I did good. You know, Zoe is living her life. And um, and she's not coming home. And I support Yvonne's pain through that because, you know, I have I will never know what it's like to be a mom. I think it's the most difficult um and often overlooked jobs. It's a horrible word, but I don't know what's the word. Like, mother is the greatest. No man could do it. No, there is no man. If even if we could carry children, we would suck at it. Um no, it's Yvonne is a great mom, and she it's painful that you know Zoe is she's living her life, and I try to redirect that. But it's yeah, I wish I saw them more. I do.

SPEAKER_01: 51:04

Um, I know you talk about them a lot. I love that. I love that every time I see you, it's like new pictures of them.

SPEAKER_03: 51:10

Um my babies.

SPEAKER_01: 51:12

I'm curious, you said that part of your family still demands and expects that old behavior. What is that like today?

SPEAKER_03: 51:21

It's more difficult for them than it is for me. Um I I still get scenarios. My parents and I don't agree on certain topics that uh we will never bring up.

SPEAKER_00: 51:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 51:35

We we don't see eye to eye on religion, and we don't see eye to eye on politics, and I respect anybody. I'm I am not a combative individual, but I don't hold space for things that don't elevate my recovery. I get a lot of like I want, I want uh time alone with my daughters because of, you know, our locations. And I have to respect the fact that my my parents are older and they would like to be included unlimited time. And I did. I I harbored a slight resentment when I had something planned for the three of us, and it became the five of us. It's it's still a little difficult to navigate, but I do. But the longer I stay home, the more well, how come you won't spend time with me? Or how come, you know, how how come you won't?

SPEAKER_00: 52:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 52:33

Is the is the underlying thing. The short answer is because it doesn't elevate my recovery, and I'm not here to please you. But at the same time, I want to be respectful of that what their needs are. They miss me and I miss them. But but again, I'm not here to make your life better because you didn't plan for certain things. Does that does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01: 53:00

Yeah. Well, you're sort of go ahead.

SPEAKER_03: 53:03

No, I'm being a little vague. Um It's okay.

SPEAKER_01: 53:07

But you're sorry, we're both excited.

SPEAKER_03: 53:10

Ladies first. Ladies first.

SPEAKER_01: 53:12

Um it's but it's the interesting dynamic of when you're inside someone else's expectation, right?

SPEAKER_03: 53:20

Yes, that's I'm glad I let you go. Keep going.

SPEAKER_01: 53:25

Especially, you know, it's one thing to say that to a peer or to someone that's also on the same playing ground. I've found with especially older people who are family members of a different generation who and it doesn't it doesn't mean they're not aware of what's happened or whatnot, but just they have an expectation on what everything should look like, what family time means, what you should be like as a son, and what what you loving them should look like, you know? And that may not match who you are becoming.

SPEAKER_03: 53:58

You literally just said what I was struggling to say. So thank you. Yeah, I I wish uh I'm gonna go back and listen to this because you worded it so perfectly. I I used to live in other people's expectations. And when I when I put that in my notes on my phone, I'm putting your initials next to it. It's such a great way. Yeah, that's no way to live.

SPEAKER_01: 54:20

Yeah. Well, and so I just wanna. Can you paint me a picture of the man that you're becoming?

SPEAKER_03: 54:30

Yes. I have I will, and it used to be awkward. Um I love to live in the pause. I used to be really reactionary and hyper defensive. I am critically aware of my character defects. I do not feel the need to try to talk about things that I don't know about.

SPEAKER_04: 54:57

I love being vulnerable. I love saying no for the right reason.

SPEAKER_03: 55:06

I I will never compartmentalize myself again for a single human being. I don't use three words to get to manipulate someone. I don't tell people I love them because I want to sleep with them. If I tell you I love you, it's because what I see, what you're presenting to me, I love, I love you. This version of you. That doesn't mean I'm in love with someone because I tell them that. Um I want I want to live a life where if people do speak of me, it's because it's this real version of of me without me trying to get over. I used to try to buy and sell people. Not not just with money, um, either with false kindness or take your pick. The if I ever get into a relationship again, which would be lovely, that person is going to get the best version of me that I have ever presented because it's going to be me. So there's no, it's not like what you see is what you get in sort of like a demeaning character. Like, I'm not going to fold for anyone. I'm going to continue to be kind and and I'm going to compliment somebody because what I see I think is beautiful. Or, or, you know, if I if I like your hair and I I'm going to notice, I pay attention now for the right reasons. I don't say yes when I want to say no. I literally will say no. And and I really don't care if your feelings get hurt about that, because we can talk about it. And and if somebody calls me out on something, and I have no doubt that at some point I will give you the opportunity to call me out on something, um, I'm going to ask you what it what did I do? Because your opinion matters to me, because I value who you are, and I don't always see the thing. So if somebody says something to me or calls me out, I'm going to want to change that behavior, not because you told me to, but because you because you you know I can do better. That that's the kind that's the kind of that's who I want to be.

SPEAKER_04: 57:31

I I I don't want to lie anymore.

SPEAKER_03: 57:36

I want to have the kind of relationships that that are that are based on all things good. Not based on what I could do for you or what you could do for me. Like, God, I used to surround myself with yes people, Natanya. And it was it was exhausting. I just I wanna be real. That's what I want to be.

SPEAKER_01: 58:00

I love that. And I love what you said about specifically the part about just being you without an agenda, where you're trying to where it's an exchange. You know, one of the ones that I had was that if you give me something or you tell me something or you compliment me or you this, I owe you something. I somehow owe you.

SPEAKER_03: 58:20

Yes, that was me. That was me. Look what I did for you. Why, you know, just because you you pay a compliment, it's not reciprocal. It doesn't entitle you to the exact same response because then you're not being altruistic. And that was that that was all this.

SPEAKER_01: 58:37

Well, and if you're giving a compliment to get something, you know, what does that say about the root of that in the first place? Right.

SPEAKER_05: 58:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 58:46

Um what do you what do you hope that listeners give themselves permission to do after listening to this?

SPEAKER_03: 58:59

I'll just if you feel like you're not enough or you're not deserving of being loved for who you are, I can promise you if you do the work, you will find out that you have always, always been enough.

SPEAKER_04: 59:19

You just need to find your tribe. Just be who you are. It's a it's I never thought I was enough.

SPEAKER_03: 59:31

Ever. And I have always been enough. I just I just needed help. Use your voice. Don't let anybody take your voice from you. It's a shitty thing to do.

SPEAKER_01: 59:45

Well, and I found that the more I did that, and I think you're talking about the same experience, the more I lived that out loud. Live that not just pass time.

SPEAKER_03: 59:55

Yeah, no, I I'm with you.

SPEAKER_01: 59:57

But the more that I do that, it's like It's almost like being in a magnet. Suddenly people show up and they're like, what are you talking about? And they want to tell me stuff too, and they're like, Me too, you know? And it's that space of I found that the more I was authentic and just just being real about the truth, the hard stuff, the good stuff, the transformation change over time, and that that's okay to be messy, the more I found mirrors in other people.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:30

Yeah. Oh, you know, I think I've I've I stole this one too, and I think I've shared it with you. When people show you their true colors, it is not our job to repaint them. So don't I love that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:44

I don't think I've heard that before. Will you say it again?

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:48

Yes. When people show us their true colors, it's not our job to repaint them. Just pivot.

SPEAKER_04: 1:00:57

Pivot and move.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:59

Yeah. And we spend a lot of time there.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:02

Yeah. Am I allowed to plug a song? Sure. Okay, because you made me think of this. Um this is for you. And if somebody hears it, that's great. Have you have you ever heard the song She Used to Be Mine by Sarah Barellis?

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:21

Yes. It's one of my favorites.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:24

Okay. Have you heard the version with Rufus Wainwright?

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:28

No.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:28

It's on YouTube. Okay. I thought I thought it was a breakup song. Clearly, you know it, you know it's not. It's not. That I'm a you know, I'm a massive music fan. I'm gonna say as close to vocal perfection, but please listen to that and watch the video. And when you're done crying, you can you can text me and I will remind you that I cannot listen to it without, even for the twelfth thousandth time. Boo.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:02

Yeah, it's a good one.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:03

Um I'm gonna do that right when we hang up from this. Thank you for sharing that. And I have one last question. What is one truth? Just one, one truth that is guiding the life that you're creating.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:23

I never have to live in a secret again. Because I have a voice.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:31

Yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:36

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:37

I'm super emotional.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:39

Yeah. I have an enormous amount of love and respect for you. You are a really good person, and my life is better because you're in it. And I mean Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:50

Likewise. Likewise. I appreciate you so much, and I feel honored. Not only that you said yes, but you just showed up as you. And I love you.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:02

I love you too. And I see you, and I love you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:06

I see you too. We'll talk soon.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03:08

All right. Sounds good.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:13

Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to natanyaallison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.