What I Didn't Know: Building the Life You Recovered For

EP18: Permission to Change | Why Healing Requires Raw Honesty with Alan Horsnell

• Netanya Allyson • Season 1 • Episode 19

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"Our secrets keep us sick, but our truth sets us free." 

There is a specific kind of exhaustion that comes from keeping our own secrets. We think we’re being strong by staying silent, but that 'safety' is what keeps us stuck. Today’s guest, Alan Horsnell, lived behind that wall of silence for over two decades before realizing that raw honesty is the prerequisite for healing. Now 13 years into his recovery, Alan opens up about breaking his own stigma, shedding the fear of being a burden, and leaning into the profound power of being uncomfortable.

In This Episode:

  • The Vocabulary of Truth: We explore how gaining the right words for our mental health—like distinguishing between intrusive thoughts and active intent—removes the power of shame and stops the cycle of isolation. 
  • Dual Diagnosis & The Mountain Metaphor: A deep dive into the "chicken and egg" relationship between addiction and mental health. Alan explains why we eventually have to shed our "safety furs" and walk into the uncomfortable unknown to find real freedom. 
  • The Vulnerability Muscle: Why healing isn't a "one-and-done" event but a practice. We discuss the act of vibe-checking your support system and how "going first” with your truth gives everyone else permission to do the same. 

If you’ve been waiting for permission to be real, to be seen, and to be different—this conversation is for you.

SPEAKER_00:

This podcast is about those about the 2020 things I wish someone had told me that I only understand that. You belong here, and we're going to talk about all this. I'm your host Natalia, and this is what I need to know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Alan Horsnell. And in this episode, I love it so much because we dive a little bit deeper into a couple different mental health issues than I have previously talked about in other episodes, specifically dual diagnosis and having co-occurring things overlapping with each other. We also get into destigmatization of just talking about your stuff and being able to tell the truth and overcoming whatever's stopping you from talking about things that are hard in order to be able to move forward in the process of change and healing. So here we go. Ellen, thank you for being here. I'm so happy to see your face. Yeah, it's good to be here. Um we end up in these heart to hearts all the time in real life, going down deep rabbit holes in the corner of a room, you know, on all of the things, which is why I wanted to have you here.

SPEAKER_01:

But again, I I often refer to you as my unlicensed therapist.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. Um but I would love if we could begin with kind of what what we thought we would talk about and why that is.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So, you know, in in thinking about my recovery, both sort of substance abuse issues and mental health recoveries, the unifying feature for me has been about communication and and so negative communication and positive communication. And and the unifying feature there is talking about destigmatizing mental health by being open with your own issues with people that you trust and people that you love, and how negative experiences with that can shut you down and negatively impact you. Um and and how just kind of creating open spaces for yourself and for others to have those conversations, like you and I often have, is one of the most valuable and also sustainable components of my recovery program. Um, you know, my story starts in early teenage years, and and I was struggling with compulsive thoughts and suicidal ideation, and and I I had an experience with the psych hospital uh after saying the suicide word. And the feedback that I got was because I wasn't actively suicidal, and uh I my actions and my speaking about the suicidal ideations were manipulative and were causing problems. And that led me to shutting down for 23 years and and not being able to talk about that. And at the time as a young man, uh, you know, we're we're talking about 15, 16 years old here. I didn't have the vocabulary to say, um, hey, no, no, no, no, no, these are compulsive, intrusive thoughts about suicide. I actually, I'm not suicidal, I don't want to die. These thoughts are actually they're scary, you know. But because I didn't have that vocabulary to say, no, these are like repeated intrusive thoughts, not a desire to actively end my life. Again, the takeaway that I got was you're being manipulative, you don't have a plan, you're using this as a as a control of relationship tactic and your troubles with your parents or your troubles with your friends or whatever. And so I locked out. Um and that that led to again uh years of stagnancy and years of trying to battle really serious suicidal ideation issues by myself and without without talking about it. And it wasn't until again I was 38 years old and and in the middle of a of a serious life crisis that I, in a moment of kind of venting to a friend of mine released this stuff, and he was like, hey man, so you know those are two different things. Active suicidality and suicidal ideations are two different things. And so, no, you're not being manipulative by talking about this, you're speaking to your internal experience, and you gotta get that out. That's the only way to deal with it. And again, there's the there's a million other miles and side quests and things that happen there, but to focus on the takeaways, the shutdown of communication led to years of suffering. And one moment of openly communicating, openly breaking my own stigma of talking about what was going on can change everything, you know? Um, so yeah, that's why I'm here, Natalia.

SPEAKER_00:

So, where did you, once that happened with him, how did you learn how to open up more after that?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, he connected me with his psychiatrist, which was very helpful. I hadn't, I hadn't I had been on um a mild antidepressant for years, but it but it wasn't really functional, and I hadn't had any adjustment and didn't really have any supervision with it. So I was able to connect with the medical team to help, recognizing that the ideations were a thing that could be addressed um pharmacologically. So that was the component. I also immediately started talk talk therapy again. Okay, um, and started working through talking through some of this, working through again getting past my own stigmas and my own learned responses to feeling like I was a burden or being negative or being manipulative. You know, like I had to get into this practice of doing this regularly. I have to be talking about this. This is not a thing that I can talk about once or go to a single uh 12-step meeting or group therapy uh session for and have the problem solved. This is a long-term recurring issue, and it's gonna take long-term conversation and reflection and conversation and reflection. But it also opened me up to doing more things like this. You know, one of the beautiful things about our friendship has always been that we started a friendship with openness about mental health and recovery issues. And so, you know, you and and many other people in my life are such a huge part of my recovery, just because I'm able to speak with them and just because I'm able to put this stuff out there and create a space where we can share. You know, it's remarkable. I encounter a lot of folks in my day job, and and long story short, I deal with with you know a couple hundred people in a community on a daily basis. And so um it's really remarkable how we can be having a cigarette conversation out by the dumpster, and I start talking about, you know, I'm asking you how you're doing, how's your soul, all these things, and I start being honest. Oh, yeah, man, I've had experiences like that. It's bad. I, you know, I needed X, Y, and Z to get over it. It it affected me in all these ways. And and again, people are going to jump in that conversation, and when you hold that space, you help to do the destigmatization in their mind as well. Yeah. Because it's it the the stigma is a dual thing. One is is the social component where you're worried about how other people are going to respond, and you don't want to trauma dump, and you don't want to take over conversations or make every interaction you have about your mental health. But then there's a stigma in the mind too of like, I'm I'm ruining the conversation if I talk about this. I'm not being uh or I'm not keeping with social norms by sitting here at a dinner table and and and you know, talking about what I needed to talk about in therapy this week, you know?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and and so I think again, like there's this wonderful line in the big book, our secrets keep us sick. And we keep those secrets for a number of reasons, but but the reality is the fact that their secrets is what's keeping us sick. And when we can break that stigma and get outside of sort of our self-consciousness and our expectations of social norms, that's when the good stuff happens. And that's where a lot of the growth and a lot of the positivity that you can find in recovery can come from.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and I love that for 700 reasons, but it's also that willingness to go first. Raise your hand of like, I'll I'll go, right? And then in doing so, the when you are vulnerable in a way that's you know, you don't like you say you don't want to just trauma dump, but you're talking about things that are like, yeah, this is real and it was hard and it's true, and you know, this is how I got through it, or whatever. But you're honest and authentic in your vulnerability of it. You give other people permission to do the same thing. It's sort of like saying, that's okay here.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Um I'm curious sometimes go ahead.

SPEAKER_01:

I was gonna say sometimes going first doesn't even necessarily mean about like me taking uh something that a person has said and turning it into my experience. Sometimes it's just about when they are saying, Hey, I'm having a bad day, you say, That's valid. What? Bad days happen. What's going on? And even just then again, giving those little cues and those little feedback to people can be so important in their journey and in yours.

SPEAKER_00:

So what were you talked about stigmas, like your own stigmas? What were your stigmas?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, again, so the the feedback I had gotten, of course, was was you're being manipulative. And and again, this is uh 25, 27 years ago, you know. So um, as a young man, you internalize that. You already you also have all of these weird social pressures about we gotta be tough and we can't talk about our feelings, we have to just show up and get the job done. And those turn into rules in your mind. Uh uh to to piggyback on Miguel Ruiz's uh four agreements theory. Like all of these things that we believe are agreements that we've made with ourselves. And so if if you agree that speaking about your mental health is taxing to others, manipulative and harmful, that's an agreement you've made with yourself. It doesn't matter if that's reality, that's what you're gonna hold yourself to. That's the stigma, right? And so I'm here, I want to be a tough guy, I want to be a strong man in society. I have to, you know, even with all the sensitivity and and emotional sort of uh wellness stuff that was going on in schools in the 90s, like still we were getting these messages of stoicism, toughness, sort of of laconic acceptance of of whatever's going on. Um and so those formed these guardrails and these rules in my head about what I was and was not able to be or represent myself as being. And so, you know, I'm sitting here in traffic, it's 2:30 on a Tuesday, somebody has cut me off, and for the 47th time, this hour, I have a little video playing in my head of me jumping off a bridge. Because I'm not actually suicidal, I can't talk about it.

SPEAKER_03:

You know?

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and that's again, that's the thing I dealt with to the point when I hit this crisis at 38, I was so overwhelmed by the compulsive thoughts that like that was why it came out of me when I was talking to my friend about it. It was happening as I'm talking to him. Like, hey, this this conversation ain't growing going great. I could, I could jump off a bridge, is what my brain is telling you, you know? And so it just slipped out past that filter, past that guardrail that I had set, because I was in such an emotionally delicate state that I wasn't um following through with my normal sort of rational processes. When you can start to look at that stigma in your head as not your voice, you can make a change. And one of the ways that this ties back into to being open about your mental health is like there's a negative voice in my head that I can say is not my voice because when I use my voice in the real world, it is for good. You know?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Like I can distinguish I can prove that voice in my head wrong by doing what I believe to be the appropriate and moral and ethical thing, not what the crazy compulsive thought is. And then you build up and you stack a little success, right? And you start going, yeah, man, that voice sucks. Uh, here's another reason why you suck voice. Here's another thing I'm gonna do in my life to shut you up. I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who was going through a crisis moment, and she was sort of effusively thanking me for for being here, uh being there uh for her. And I was like, I've you know, like you're sitting here talking to me about how you feel like you don't matter. There are times when I feel like I don't matter too, bud. And when part of the reason why I do this is to remind you that you matter, so that when I'm sitting there feeling like I don't, I can look back on this and go, but I proved to somebody else that they did, and that makes me matter too, you know? And those are the little victories that you stack up against that voice in your head. And those happen when you're open and when you're honest and when you expose that vulnerability. You know, there's a lot of um, I'm always fascinated by kind of the seeming contradictions of some of the 12 steps, right? Versus like sort of language versus results, right? And so that first step is a perfect example. Um, admitted that I was powerless over alcohol and that my life had become unmanageable. I take my personal power back through the admission of powerlessness. That is how I gain power over the addiction, is by saying I have no power because then I'm acknowledging what I do control and what I don't. And I can start working on the things that I do. And so uh there's a there's a lot of other contradictions there too. You start to foster manageability through the acknowledgement of unmanageability. And so you strengthen your health mentally, physically, spiritually, by being vulnerable. And what you're doing when you're working out is tearing down muscles so they can be rebuilt, right? What you're doing when you're being vulnerable is exposing that vulnerability to toughen it up. But you can't toughen it up without exposing the vulnerability. And again, that all comes back to that idea of like so much of mental health becomes these routines of how our mind traps us. And there's a lot of science about neuropathways and how we program ourselves into our ways of behavior and everything else. But the reality is all of that shit's kind of made up. It's just rules you've put around yourself, you know? These stigmas about saying I can't talk to the the random manager at the kitchen I work in about my mental health because that's not socially appropriate, that's dumb. That's that's getting in your way. Um, you know, there can be those moments where you experience extreme explosive growth just because somebody acknowledged you. Just because you gave somebody, you held somebody space for them to say that thing, to let that thing slip out of their life like like it slipped out of my mouth with my friend, you know? And as I continue on on this uh uh 13 years without without a drop of the drink, 13 and a half coming up in uh five days. The thing that continues to work the best for me in my recovery is fellowship and is the communication and is the interaction of, you know, they say wherever two drunks are having a conversation, you got an AA meeting. And when you extrapolate the add that out to the broader idea of recovery, wherever two people who are aware and trying to better their mental health get together and talk, that's therapy, but it can happen at the coffee shop, it can happen on the job site, it can happen by the dumpster. I'm in restaurants. A lot of cool things happen by dumpsters. Um but but it's you have to be open to it and you have to be willing to put yourself out there and um get out of your head, get out of other people's head, and get into real-world problem solving.

SPEAKER_00:

So for someone who really doesn't know how to be vulnerable, hasn't had experience with it, doesn't have a muscle built, feels that like um stifling, like sort of stuffing it back down when you go to say it and I can't do it because I don't know how, how do you begin?

SPEAKER_01:

I think there's two ways there. One is in building up relationships of trust with the people around you. And so just like if you're starting with a new counselor or new therapist, new doc, um, you're gonna you're gonna sort of lead in with the little vulnerabilities to gain some trust before you open up on those big vulnerabilities. And so again, one of those is that trust building with the people you're communicating with. The other is honesty is the only way out of this. Right? We can't solve problems that we don't admit to ourselves. And when you're feeling a hesitation to say something, that's the sickness keeping itself a secret. That's the that's the not healing continuing, right? And so when you feel that hesitation, jump, man. Like part of it for me is is years and years in 12-step programs and recovery programs. Like I'm an open book that I my I've I've addressed most of my guilt and shame issues, and so I can speak on those topics without having that emotion well up, and some of that is experience-based. But you know, I can also talk to the wall. So so for people who are shyer, for people who are less socially inclined, yeah. Um, again, I think it starts with baby steps. I think it starts with building trust in the people that you're speaking with, whether that be a professional, whether that be a friend, a coworker, a parent, a sibling, whatever it is, and letting go of that smaller stuff. Because when you start letting go of that smaller stuff, what you realize when you start talking about this stuff is these things that that are such demons in our mind, when you speak them into existence, they're often kind of laughable. You know? Like when you actually say it, I hate myself so much that I don't want to get out of bed. What do you got a pretty good life? What am I talking about, man? I got these great dogs. I got a what am I what are you talking about, man? Like you can psych yourself out. Into your head, and by getting it out, you release it into the world, and it stops being your secret. It starts being a thing that you can recognize as a different voice. But that's again also about using your voice to speak into reality what you want to be versus what these stupid uh uh uh you know brain issues are telling you, man.

SPEAKER_00:

Um I'm curious, and so we talked about the what, which is a little bit at a time. Same question, but with the who. If someone really doesn't know who they can go to or sort of looks around the room and sees different people and goes, where do I begin? How do you test out who the right people are to talk to?

SPEAKER_01:

I think that goes to the idea of lived and felt experience. And so the right person for me is not gonna be the right person for you. We have entirely different need sets, even just differences in in gender expression. And uh, I mean, that's such a lived experience. So who a woman is gonna want to talk to about issues related to their womanhood and mental health is gonna be very different from who I'm gonna talk to related to issues about sort of traditionally masculine areas of mental health and and the vocabulary that boys don't get, you know? So I think some of it is about finding people who feel like they're holding space for you. Finding people who are genuine. Frankly, they don't have to have anything in common with you so long as you're both genuine. And so it's not necessarily gonna be the guy that dresses just like you or the gal whose hair you love. It's gonna be the person that has an energy around them that you feel like you can share with. And that can be hard to find sometimes, no doubt. But there are grades of it. And you know when you meet somebody, snap judgments aren't great, but you kind of get a vibe check on them. And if you get a vibe check that's not good about somebody, yeah, probably don't open up to them. There's a reason why why that bell is alarm is ringing. But as you converse about sort of normal life stuff, you can also get a gauge of where someone's head's at. Do they have how do they respond to the people around them? Do they treat people fairly and equitably? Is this a person that I feel is gonna be safe with my information? You know? You can kind of do those little tests and and create a calculus for yourself of what a person you can share with looks like, broadly speaking. But again, I I also think it's just about season opportunities when they come. You don't know who you're gonna meet at the at the dumpster, but maybe that guy's gonna ask you how your soul is, and you're gonna be like, you know, I'm tired of giving the I'm okay answer. I want to give this, you know, I don't want to give this person the I'm okay answer. Maybe I am gonna trauma dump a little bit on them. Okay. And then and then if they start responding positively and saying things like, wow, that's really valid, man. I've had a similar experience, or hey man, that's completely out of my wheelhouse, but dude, that sucks. You're right to feel sad or to feel traumatized or to feel angry about this issue. You start to the more you do it, you start to kind of see how those wheels come together and how those conversations come together, and how you can find yourself into healthy versions of that conversation with anyone from a stranger to your bother, you know?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I have a question. It's gonna take us on a little bit of a different tangent. So before I do that, is there anything else in the scope of what we're currently talking about that you didn't get to say that you kind of want to jam on?

SPEAKER_01:

No, man. Uh again, just destigmatize mental health by talking about your mental health. Hold space for others, be real and treat each other with kindness. That's all I got for that.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. So, what I want to ask about is I want to get into dual diagnosis a little bit.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I love can you, just for listeners who may not know what that is, kind of give a blanket explanation of what I'm talking about and what I'm referring to when I say that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. So so dual diagnosis is also referred to as co-occurring disorders, and it is generally used for the co-occurrence of substance abuse disorder and addiction disorders with other underlying mental health issues. So part of why it's dual diagnosis, but also co-occurring is it might be more than two. You know, you may have depression and anxiety issues, PTSD issues, and addiction issues, right? And the way that all of this stuff has to kind of be treated in concert. And so um you've got the way I explain it, and I think you and I have talked about this, is like some people are gonna look at a dual diagnosis or a co-occurring issue and say, oh, well, the underlying mental health issues are causing the addiction issue, right? And some people are gonna look and say, no, it's the addiction and substance abuse issues that are driving the other underlying mental health care issues. And from a person who has experienced being dual diagnosis for for most of my life, that's like a which came first, the chicken or the egg.

SPEAKER_03:

The chicken or the egg we matter.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't need chicken solutions and I don't need egg solutions. I need chicken and egg solutions. I need solutions that work for both things. Um, because there are parts of, you know, you can one of my big issues uh going back to like that kind of bad vocabulary stuff is that, you know, when I was going through my addiction stuff, I couldn't tell you, do I want my substance because I'm anxious, or am I anxious because I want my substance? It didn't matter. I was anxious and I needed a substance. Um and I and and you have to address these things together. And so you can never be uh on top of your mental health issues while in active addiction. I wish you could, it'd be really cool, but to anybody listening who's in active addiction, that's not how it works. The mental health issues, oftentimes the substance abuse becomes a failed solution to the problem of the mental health issues, right? And so I have to deal with the underlying mental health issues while abstaining from my substance and doing the recovery work in the substance abuse recovery side of it. At the same time, if my depression or my anxiety or my PTSD is kicking in, that's gonna increase my drive for the substance. And so if I again am just trying to get one or the other together, but I I got out of treatment, spent 10 years kind of hibernating in my mental health and shutting myself down because I wasn't actively working a mental health program too. And I stayed sober, but I didn't have the quality of life of a person who was out there. I was alive, I was doing things, but I wasn't living a life. I had kind of, you know, the the metaphor that I previously used is it's like going through uh uh uh heading out west on a wagon train, you get up over those mountains and you get to the top of the mountains and you're safe. And the trip up was awful, and the trip down looks miserable too, man. So I'm just gonna hang out up here in the mountains, or at least I know I'm safe. Right. So I was up there in those mountains safe from the substance abuse because I had isolated myself from the substance abuse, but I wasn't heading back down the other side. I wasn't getting to the flatland in the hills and the valleys on the other side of the mountain, and I had acquired so much baggage and so many tools for living on top of the mountain, for being in this state of only dealing with one side or the other, that when it came time to actually make a decision and get down the mountain, I'm having to shed things left and right that I thought were super useful. And I don't mean that like jokingly, I mean that like again, things that like rules and regulations I had set up in my mind, ways of being, how I like my complete existence was rooted in this sort of sheltered, safe place. And like when you're up there on the mountain and you got five foot of furs on, yeah, that's real cozy, but you can't climb the mountain. You can't count the mountain with the five foot of furs on the button. Yeah, it's gonna kill you. So when you are a person who has those co-occurring issues, it is very important, especially if you were working a pharmacological or medical program, to make sure you are working with somebody who has dual diagnosis, understanding, because the other side of it is like I'm a drunk, man. I'm a rot gut drunk. And I'm also super anxious. Now, one of the frontline treatments for anxiety is a benzo. That's actually booze and pill form, bud. Um, so when I'm talking to my psychiatrist or to my docs, it's not, hey, what is the frontline defense? It's hey, what you got that ain't gonna screw with the alcoholism? Right? So um asking me to take a Valium one time a day is like asking me to take one shot of whiskey a day, but I ain't never taken one of anything like that. When you're going through this treatment process, like having somebody who understands that helps you protect yourself from falling into that trap of, well, I followed a doctor's instructions and it led me into a a trap of greater addiction, you know?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um well, how do you break that loop, like initially? Say, say you haven't had a program or you don't have a doctor yet, and you like the depression or the anxiety tells me that I need to drink, but then the drinking tells me that I'm depressed. How do you actually break that initially?

SPEAKER_01:

I think it starts with acknowledging that both things are happening. I know for me, when I was trapped in in my addictive phase, I ain't hearing that. You know? I'm not my mental health is fine. I just need to drink, you know? Um, and and you you get to a point where you gloss it over really easily, and you get um it's kind of the equivalent of like being noseblind to a smell in your house. You just completely black out this idea that that these are two separate things. So it starts with with breaking that and saying, okay, I am actively using a substance. I am also really, really in need of some mental health care. Um the the first advice I'm gonna give you is if it is safe for you to stop using without medical supervision, do that. That said, alcohol, benzos, there's a lot of drugs that it is not safe for you to discontinue without medical supervision. So caveat there. But if it is safe for you to discontinue the substance abuse, do that. Because what you'll realize is that your mental health and your uh substance abuse are intricately tied together. And I've got a buddy, he was struggling for a couple of years with his recovery and would have a relapse every couple of months, and his mental health would be shit for like three days afterwards. And I was like, what? It's because you broke the cycle. You let the thing back in, and now your body is craving the thing, and it sent you on this downward mental health care spike. So being able to separate the two and getting the substance abuse and addiction stuff, that's probably your primary concern. Um, and then you can start getting into other resources like counseling, like a psychiatrist, or you know, whatever modality of therapy you want to do. For those that don't have resources, 12-step programs are amazing. Like AA saved my life, but I'm not the world's biggest proponent of every 12-step program's specifics and and traditions and patterns and all that, but I will tell you, if you look at any modality of therapy that doctors have found to be successful, they're putting a lot of weight from that or of that success on the finding people, uh like-minded people who are trying to do better to talk to. And so if you're just kind of trying to quit drinking, check out an AA meeting, check out a an NA meeting, check out a CA meeting, man. The cocaine kids know stuff too. We're all just trying to get better. And I think that can also help you break the spell that's keeping you isolated and keeping you sick.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Um, what do you wish you knew for those sitting at home that have never done this, that are nervous to go do the thing, what do you wish you knew about therapy or 12-step programs before you did it that would have made you do it sooner?

SPEAKER_01:

Um, if you're honest and are willing to work a program, the programs will change your life. I know it looks boring on TV. I know that what you hear about AA isn't great. But if you can manifest the willingness, a different life is possible. You know, that's the thing they tell you when you get in rehab. You know, you want what we have. Um, I didn't think that was possible for me. I thought I was an exemption because I'm a drunk, I'm special. We all think we're special. You're not special. It can work for you too. But you gotta believe in yourself and you you have to be open to the idea that everything is is possibly going to change. And if that means you getting better, so be it. All these little things that you think about yourself or believe about yourself or believe that you must follow, none of that means anything, man. It's all in your head. You can be whoever it is you want to be, with whatever values and whatever characteristics you want to have if you sit down and make the choice to pursue that honestly and openly and and with a willingness to accept whatever the results are.

SPEAKER_00:

What do you think about people who don't want to change their surroundings or the people that they're with or the life that they've built in order to go work on themselves?

SPEAKER_01:

Um, I honestly I don't know how anybody gets sober without rehab because the life pause was probably the most important component of that for me. Will you talk about that? Yeah, it looks like you're in timeout, man. I don't have to worry about where dinner's coming from. I don't have to worry about what time I'm getting to work, I don't have to worry about who's feeding anybody else. I'm here because I'm in timeout and I need to focus on my my recovery, right? I am surrounded by some really, really broken and really sad people, and I am no better than those people. Um, and I got here because my way of doing things don't work, and I need to learn a new way of doing things. Um, you know, in terms of the people, places, and things, I know it's hard, but you are what you surround yourself with. And so, you know, one of the things that I find so valuable about you and our friendship is that like you challenge me to grow and to be the best version of myself possible. And that's what friends do, that's what loved ones do. And unfortunately, if you're actively in addiction, most of your people are probably actively in addiction. And it doesn't mean they're back, it doesn't mean that you can't love them or be their friend. What it means is that they can't help. You have to find people with something to give in order to get help. And people stuck in their own cycles of abuse and addiction and and and suffering, unfortunately, just don't have a whole lot other than I love you and I support you to give because they're so involved in their own narrative and story. And it sucks because you want to look at your butt and be like, hey, let's go do this together. But you're gonna figure out you don't have control over any of that, man. All you have control over is you, and unfortunately, that that those people that you love, they've got their own tough lessons to learn. And you can't stop your own learning processes just because they're not willing to hop on board. And again, it sucks to change in people places and things, it's hard, but you need to be uncomfortable. Being comfortable has gotten you to the point of a breakdown, right? So, yeah, be uncomfortable. That's what you need. Being comfortable causes you problems.

SPEAKER_00:

Will you talk a little bit about that specifically? And it's like whether it's me and you and we sit down and have a conversation and chat like there's a challenge in there. Will you kind of explain what that feels like for you, why it's valuable, um, and what you get from that? Like, what is that like sitting in it actually?

SPEAKER_01:

I have told you many a time that I hate you or I hate what just came out of your mouth while sitting in a coffee shop. It's challenging. But the deal is like when you have people that you trust and you can be authentic with, yeah, it's challenging, but they're challenging you to grow. Growing kind of hurts. It ain't that fun. There's a great song lyric of uh ask anyone who can recall. It's terrible to be born. It is terrible. Uh, but you gotta go through that, you know? And and as many times as I can look at you and go, I feel stupid by how easy you made that sound. I can still get up from the table and go, man, that's really good advice. Stop worrying about feeling stupid. You are stupid. It's what you got. It's okay. We all kind of are. We learn from others and and and we grow from others and from others' challenges. And like I said, it feels challenging, it feels frustrating sometimes, but you get up from the table feeling so much better. Going back to the the friend who was struggling in AA, when he first started to try and get sober, I was like, man, you're not special. You need to go to an AA meeting. And he was like, Will you come with me? And I was like, No, I will not, because you need to be uncomfortable. If we go to the AA meeting house and you and I are standing in the corner smoking a cigarette before the meeting and going together and sit together and hang out and then smoke, leave together, you haven't been uncomfortable. No, you have to go meet these people, you have to go build these relationships, you have to go create a recovery path for yourself and a recovery community for yourself. And you can't do that if you're not uncomfortable, man. Because the feeling of being uncomfortable drives you to seek comfort. And that's how you find those new people.

SPEAKER_00:

So in this space that you're currently in with the people that you're surrounded with, the with the with the crew that you now intentionally surround yourself with, and you are one of, right? Two other people. What does service look like for you?

SPEAKER_01:

It looks it looks like a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, tell me about it.

SPEAKER_01:

Um you do a lot of the stuff. So so sometimes service is as simple as like asking the homeless dude outside the coffee shop what his name is and trying to shake his hand and treating him like a human being because so many people get caught up in this idea of um being invisible that when you shake that loose, um, there's a there's a lot there. I've met a lot, like I in the past two years I've had at least three dudes cry when I asked them what their name was and stuck my hand out because they saw me seeing them as a person. Um so it looks to me a lot like viewing people as people. And so wherever I can do that, um again, I talk about being open about my mental health at work. So to me, that's a form of service work. Pumping positivity into the world is a form of service work. I help with. Lunches, I help with. When it's super cold outside, man, I'm baking off some baked potatoes and just running them to the homies because you can just help people. You don't have to ask. They they'll take your potatoes if you offer them to them. Um, coming up with things like uh like you helped me with setting up winter care packages, winter uh preparedness packages, just to keep in the pickup truck and hand out to somebody else to get a stoplight. My personal path is is very driven to those who are unhoused and those who are overlooked and those who are invisible. Because without my support network, that's what I am, right? People ask me, hey, why have you had more success in recovery than somebody else has? It's because of my support network. But if I want to keep that support network, I have to go be good support, right? And so again, my service work looks a lot like that. It takes a lot of different shapes. You know, I've I've been volunteering with some some groups that work with youth that have had some level of involvement with the juvenile justice system and giving them culinary training and and helping them learn skills and morals and values in the place where I learned skills and morals and values, you know. Um, but I don't think I think people put up some more walls around that recovery service work too. Like service work has to take place in an AA room, or it has to take place at a silver function, or it it has to have some, you know, certain way, shape, look, or form like nomin, you can just go out there to help people. It's actually really neat. Um there's a lot of people that need it. And when they find someone who's genuinely trying to like give without reservation and without condition and without insult, um, you know, I get you get a lot of positive feedback. One of the things, again, like the part of town I live in has has a lot of folks who are struggling and who are on the streets, and I don't know how other people don't see them, but I can't just not see them. And and so a lot of the core of my service starts with seeing them. And then what can I do from there? Because everybody has different needs. Um, so what can I do from there?

SPEAKER_00:

So, in terms of who you have been in the past, right? All the things that you have gone through, who you are in this moment, what do you think is possible for you moving forward because of what you've worked on?

SPEAKER_01:

I think the kindness has the ability to literally change lives. Um, it would it would take a whole nother episode for for me to go into what what you know is the Caleb situation in my life. But I think that that starting with single acts of kindness and being there for people and seeing them has the ability to change lives. And you know, I don't know what the future holds for me, but if you ask me uh how I want to be remembered, it would be as a guy who tried. You know? I tried. Uh and that's that's all you can do. I don't have to have, I don't, I don't, you know, need uh a book of success stories. I want to make a difference in one person's life if I can. And if I can do that, awesome. If I can do it for two, awesome. We're gonna keep trying. But the way I look at things, I've got a pretty gnarly outstanding debt debt with the universe. I've been given so much in my life, and so paying that down is is the only thing I'm really trying to do. How can I offset this balance of goodness that I've been given by being good for other people? Because there's a lot of suffering and a lot of meanness and a lot of ego and a lot of idiocy in this world. And how can I not contribute to that? Um that's that's what the future holds for me. Is is finding ways to make positive change in the world around me. You know, there's the old Martin Luther King quote about, you know, not everybody can be the the tree on the top of the mountain, man. Some people have to be the bush in the valley, and if you're the bush in the valley, be the best ambush you can be. So I'm I'm just down here being the best ambush I can be, man. Um trying to uh to be better than I was yesterday. And if I can help somebody else along the way, so be it. Uh a lot of people went out of their way to help me, so I gotta give that back.

SPEAKER_00:

Of all the things that you have done, right, intentionally, what are you the most proud of? What are you the most grateful for? Like for your own choices.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, the thing I'm most proud of was absolutely holding strong on the sobriety. Um I can say after, you know, like I said, coming up on 13 and a half years, that was the decision that made everything after it possible. The I there was a version of me that died in the hospital and a new version that walked out, and making the choice to allow myself to be that new version, absolutely the most important thing I've ever done for my star. Uh what was the second question?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, most grateful.

SPEAKER_01:

Most grateful support, man. I I have had and continue to have the most wonderful, beautiful, kind, uh, intelligent, giving support network, man. I've I've got family who's in recovery, I've got friends in recovery, I've got um professional connections that are as near and dear to me as any personal connection could ever be. And so I'm grateful for that. Uh I would be nothing, you know, like I'm when I'm feeling bad about myself, man, I think about the fact that I am a vessel that a lot of love has been poured into. And so I'm grateful. I'm grateful that people pour love into this vessel because when I'm feeling down, that's the thing that gets me up. And when I'm feeling like doing something for somebody else, it's because I have love in me that they put there.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I I want to be respectful not only of your time, but the fact that you've been standing out in the rain for like an hour getting poured up. But you I love that just thank you so much for taking the time to do that and just keep plowing through, even though you're stoked right now. I have one more question and then we'll let you go. What is something that you hope that listeners give themselves permission to do after hearing this conversation?

SPEAKER_01:

Change. Absolutely change. If you are wondering if you still have a mind, the best possible way to prove that you do is by changing it. And my entire life since I got sober has been built upon the idea that people are capable of change. People can be more than what they are in any given moment. And so, yeah, if if there's if there's one thing that that you should do, um be willing to change because you're gonna grow. And the more you restrict that, the worse it's gonna be for you, man. I've I've never been good at being anything other than exactly what I am. And what I am needs space to grow. Um, and changing is how you do that. Uh again, ask anybody who can recall. It is terrible to be born. But good things become of it.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you so much for spending time with me. Yes, for giving me all your wisdom. There's so much in there.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you so much for challenging me to be uh the best version of myself I could possibly muster on any given day.

SPEAKER_00:

All right, we'll talk soon. Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to NataniaAllison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.