EP19: The Anchor Effect | Reparenting, Risk, and the Power of Regulation with Talmadge Lowe

"She’s not giving me a hard time; she’s having a hard time."
We often think of leadership and parenting as acts of control. But the greatest tool you have isn’t your ability to "fix" a situation—it’s your ability to stay steady within it. 

In this deeply soulful episode, Talmadge Lowe and I sit down to explore the life-changing shift from living in a "bracing" stance—that exhausting, automatic state of being "on guard"—to becoming an anchor for every room you enter. This is more than a conversation about behavior; it is a roadmap for reparenting yourself through the high-stakes act of raising others. 

Together, we explore: 

• The Superpower of Regulation: How to move from a defensive stance to an open, receptive state that steadies your children, your marriage, and your team. 
• Healing the Inner Child: Practical ways to acknowledge the younger, scared parts of yourself so they no longer drive your adult decisions. 
• The Future-Self Filter: Why self-love is an action, not a feeling. We discuss making bold decisions today based on the person you are becoming. 

This episode is an invitation to choose a more compassionate path toward your own development. It’s a reminder that your worth isn’t tied to perfection: you can make mistakes and still be "good." You can be "grouchy" and still be deeply of service. The work isn't about being flawless; it’s about the bravery of staying present.

Chapters

• 1:39 The Transformative Journey of Parenthood
• 7:15 The Bracing Stance
• 11:37 Reparenting: Healing the Inner Child
• 20:55 The Superpowers of Integration and Emotional Regulation
• 31:04 Embracing Sensitivity and Vulnerability
• 37:27 Ownership and Repair in Relationships
• 42:23 Integrity and Its Role in Personal Growth
• 48:19 Living with Intention and Commitment
• 1:05:45 Understanding Seva: Service as Healing
• 1:19:05 Acts of Service and Self-Care
• 1:30:31 The Journey of Healing and Embracing Mistakes

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

There are moments of life that put us open by unraveling a friend or truth we do not need until we have no. This podcast is about those moments. It's about the turning points that change us, the things I wish someone had told me that I only understand and looking back. Come on in, you belong here, and we're gonna talk about all of it. I'm your host Natanya, and this is what I didn't know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Talmud Jow. And what I adore about Tal is that he's so intentional about the way that he thinks about things and moves throughout the world. And that definitely comes through in today's episode. We get into parenting and inner child work and the experience of going through that. We talk about ways to practice anything as a service. Um, and we also get into a really cool tangent about repair and commitment. So here we go. Well, I'm happier here. We end up in these beautiful like corner conversations at work all the time. So it's it's cool to be able to sit down and do it actually.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31

Yeah, same, same.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33

Um, I want to start with kids. That was something that we talked about at one point, and you had talked about how raising, how raising kids has helped you so much more as an adult. Yeah. Like just how you navigate the world and how you handle other adults.

SPEAKER_01: 1:48

Yeah. I mean, having a child. It's a really big topic, kids, uh, for me especially. But having a child, so I I had a uh a stepson, I have a stepson, he's 21 now. Uh I met him. He came into my life when he was seven. But I wasn't a parent to him. Uh his mom, who is my wife now, uh, was very present in his life. And his dad, even though they weren't together anymore, was also very present in his life. And his dad's a great guy, and we're all friends, and uh their co-parenting has been great. So I was sort of uh his friend, his mentor, his coach in some ways, but not his parent.

SPEAKER_00: 2:28

Got it.

SPEAKER_01: 2:29

Um so I didn't really take on the full embodiment of parent until our daughter was born. And what a learning curve. It's unbelievable the change, the internal shift. First, the the amount of love that you realize you're capable of is it's it's it's indescribable what what you feel when that child comes into your life and into your arms. And then, of course, that informs you as a parent. You say to yourself and to your partner, I want to be the best parent I can be. And what does that mean? I I didn't know what it meant. I want to love her, I want to take care of her. She's my responsibility, but she's also my joy.

SPEAKER_03: 3:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 3:23

I want to do it with my wife so that we're both doing it um from the same place and with the same intentions. And I started reading, my wife gave me some books, I stumbled across some books, uh, I looked things up and read things online. I saw a lot of things on Instagram, which it feels so superficial to say I I read something on Instagram because, you know, Instagram. But but there is some wisdom. You have to dig through a lot to get to it. But there are some really great things that you can learn from people out there who are posting meaningful content. I use that as well, talking to other friends who were parents and listening to them. So I was very invested in learning what that meant to be the best dad that I could be. And also, and I think this was an Instagram moment, I saw something that seemed so simple but so powerful, and it started me thinking about how I could take all of the knowledge that I was trying to gain to be a father uh and apply it to my life outside of parenthood. And it was this she's not giving you a hard time, she's having a hard time. So when you think about a three-year-old, and they are always giving you a hard time, it seems. They don't want to get dressed, they don't want to get in the bath, they don't want to eat the dinner that you gave them. There's so many little moments of disruption and defiance and dysregulation with little toddlers like that. And we have this expectation that they will somehow not have those moments of dysregulation, which is unrealistic beyond belief. So it really reframed it for me when I thought she's not getting dressed for school. We have to leave in 20 minutes. It's so easy to personalize it and say, like, she's really giving me a hard time and I'm gonna be angry and aggressive and forceful. And sure, I can force her to get dressed and get in the car. Or I can say she's having a hard time. We still have to get dressed to get in the car. That's non-negotiable. But if she's having a hard time, then I'm gonna try to be in support and a guide and a comfort, even as we continue to do the thing that's necessary that morning. And instead of being an adversary. And so I was, when I read that, and it really impacted me, and I started to apply it to my parenting. I was also at that time in conversation with this guy who I did business with, worked pretty closely with for many years, and he was a tough customer in a lot of ways. He was a very tough guy to deal with. And we were at a point where we were negotiating something, and he was being difficult. My perception of he was being difficult. He was being dysregulated in the way that we were talking about this deal. And I sat down at one point and I thought he's not giving me a hard time. He's having a hard time. And I realized it was true. He had told me over the years uh of some little stories about his childhood or about his upbringing. And his parents were really, really uh unkind with him a lot of times. And so here he is in a deal and he's fighting for his life. And his I think his perspective was he's fighting for his life. And so I just changed my uh style with him from adversarial to empathetic. Even though I was not going to move from my position in the deal because I felt it was very fair, and I was on the right side of myself and pushing for the deal in the specific way that I was pushing for it. I listened, I empathized, and it changed the energy of that negotiation. I worked with him for several years later, and he is really uh a Pandora's box full of stories of dysregulation and difficulties. And uh he was a teacher in a lot of ways, as much as he was a very difficult person to work with. But it was that moment that I planted the seed, or that the seed was planted, on how I am learning to deal with my toddler and be the best parent I can be. And I was like, we're all kind of toddlers still. Like we all still have our wounds from wherever they may come from from our childhood, whether they were family of origin or uh school or neighborhood, w whatever, wherever it came from, the thing that we are trying to overcome as we move through the world, we're all still kind of good those little kids inside.

SPEAKER_02: 8:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 8:59

Each one of us. Even uh people that we think are so together and so organized in their life, they have some kind of something that is a struggle for them that they deal with. It can be very, very obvious like addiction, uh, and it can be very subtle like avoidance. And so I try to keep my lessons about being a good parent in mind as I as I work with people and deal with people in the world. And it's it's just there, it's just applicable all the way across. It's just applicable all the way across. I um I have found that this book that I read about parenting, one of the pieces of advice that it gives for talking to your child about, again, getting dressed and getting in the car for school. Doesn't matter if they're three, four, five, my daughter is six now. I've it I've encountered this on every at every age, a resistance to it. So this other book that I read has this thing called the two by two, which is you have two feet on the ground and you stand two feet away, and you let yourself get grounded right there, and then you speak. It is time for us to get dressed and get in the car. No anger, no aggression, complete and utter conviction with what you're saying, but you're grounded in your intention to say it. And I've used that in at work all the time because I I I can personally start to get ungrounded and start to live in my own emotions and and be reactionary to what someone said or the way I feel like their what I feel like their energy towards me is. And so I have to reground myself to speak uh with conviction and not with anger or defensiveness, but with conviction. And then another thing that I learned from you know trying to be a good parent, it applies to my adult life.

SPEAKER_00: 11:25

The workplaces.

SPEAKER_01: 11:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:27

Um I'm curious about you had said reparenting, right? That we all go through this of reparenting. I have certainly had that experience myself. Um I'm curious of what this has been like for you. Like that was your experience with another adult, right? That guy that you worked with. How has it been for you and yourself? Do you ever come to a moment where you feel your inner child? Um meaning, and I'll give an example. Like I have, I name mine because um it helps me to identify, like de-identify with that part of myself. So I'm like, oh, that's not me, Natanya, the 39-year-old adult who is very well equipped with tools and emotionally stable and all of that. That's not who's talking right now. The and I call her Becky. And it's not to be me. She's just Becky is 16 and mad and hurt and angry and fiery, and she's not equipped to make decisions. She wants people to like her. Um, she isn't sound or stable. And it's like parts of that were me, really, but parts of that just live internally. And so it's like whenever it's sort of that comes up of a lot of it is reactive. If I'm ever reactive in a situation and I'm not solid and listening, it's Becky. Like just kind of coming up of wanting to fight or argue or prove a point or be right. And a lot of times I think she just wants to be heard.

SPEAKER_01: 12:53

Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 12:54

But I I'm curious of what that has been like for you noticing with that in yourself.

SPEAKER_01: 12:58

Do you find yourself parenting Becky?

SPEAKER_00: 13:01

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:02

Like I will literally, I did this in therapy once. Um, and at the time, so Becky's 16. Um, the first time I did this in therapy was a conversation I was having around men. And she, the therapist had me, she was like, Who is who's talking right now? Because it's not you. And the things I was saying, um, I was like, You're right. Who is that? And so we found, we I went down my, you know, internal space and I found Tanya. And Tanya is seven. You know, and she is cute and adorable, but scared and young and has no, you know, no tools yet. She doesn't, you know, but but Tanya at that age kind of grew up too fast for several different reasons and sort of likes to overprotect because she thinks she has to keep everybody safe.

SPEAKER_02: 13:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:53

Which is a very long story into a bunch of other stuff. But but that space of I was in this therapy session and she's having me, she's like, I want you to go to this room and you're painting the room. And I said, Okay. And so she's like, What are the tools you have? And so I'm talking, I'm I'm naming paintbrushes and things and colors. And um she said, now Tanya walks in the room too, and she's gonna try to take over and paint the room. What are you gonna say to her? And I and I just started talking to her like I would a little kid who's very sweet. And I was like, you know what? I actually got this. You don't have to do any of this. You can sit there, you can play with the paint, like you're welcome to hang out with me. But the walls are a really big job, and I have a lot of tools and I can reach higher than you, like you don't need to be on a ladder, you know. So I'm just sort of talking her through this thing. But the point being, and then we took that scenario and transferred it onto the story I was telling myself about men.

SPEAKER_02: 14:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 14:50

And then she had me again talk to Tanya about that, like I'm I'm well equipped to to lead this version of my life in and around men. But it was just the way of talking to her the way you would a child.

SPEAKER_03: 15:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:05

That a lot of us, myself included, um, self-flagellate or beat yourself up or you're hard on yourself, or you have high expectations for for you that you would never have for someone else.

SPEAKER_01: 15:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 15:17

Um, and so yes, that was a long way to say yes. No, that's great.

SPEAKER_01: 15:20

That's so it's so meaningful, it's so powerful. I usually say, and I'm going to not say this, I you know, I was raised, and and and often I will say, like, you know, my parents did the best they could or whatever, but I was raised by my parents in a way that I think was fairly common to people of my generation, but I'm a bit older than you. Um and that way was was spanking with a lot of threats, a lot of raised voices and yelling and intimidation and fear. These were the tools that were used um in parenting. And um I I believed my parents loved me. I I don't I never questioned that. And that was the way they parented. And so I was before I even before we had our daughter, I was already saying, I'm not doing that. So my I'm starting from a place of reaction. That was painful. I've lived with painful memories, wounds from that era of my life up until now, and I'm not going to inflict that upon my child. One of the books I read before she was born, it said the hardest thing you're going to do as a parent is when you get really emotionally triggered with your child, the first thing that's going to come to your mind is the way you were parented. That will just be like a bolt of lightning into your psyche, and this is what you're going to do, and it's going to be an old pattern that was put on you. The book says the hardest and most important thing you can do is stopping that. Catching yourself right there and redirecting yourself. So I had already committed to that, as had my wife, um to we would committed to parenting differently than we were parented. Um and so there were times when I would take a different approach with my daughter. For example, she loves to play, as all kids do, I would imagine, but she loves to play. So if she's getting dressed for school, and I can't get her to get those socks and shoes on, it's the la we're almost across the finish line. We can we can do it, you know? And um I will pretend like her sock as a monster that wants to eat her foot. She'll sit down because that's play, and we'll get the socks on, the shoes are a little hungry, and we'll get the shoes on. And then we'll be happily skipping to the car and ready to go. My parents would not have taken that approach. And so when I do it, there's a part of me that feels a little like there's a little bit of healing. I'm giving something that was never given me, and I give it with such love and I give it with such intention that there's a little part of me that can feel a bit of healing. My parents did not let my sister and I sleep in their bed. And so we we didn't sleep in in their bed. We would get out of our bed sometimes if we had a nightmare and say, we had a nightmare, can we sleep in your bed? And they would just say no. And our daughter has slept with us up until I mean she sleeps in her own bed now, but she slept with us for a long time. And there was I again, there's a part of me that feels a little bit of healing, soothing that I'm doing this for her, it does a little bit for me too.

SPEAKER_02: 19:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:38

Um the child thing, the inner child is a real thing. It's it's such a it's a term that is used, has been used for many years in therapy. But when you really, really get close to it, you really wrap yourself into it. It's powerful. I did a uh a piece of Work at one of the retreats I went to around this, and there was a truly physical sensation of an eight, nine-year-old version of me sitting with me, and the moments of feeling that and sensing that, and knowing that I, like you did with your uh younger self, that I am now old enough and experienced enough to take care of that part of me that wasn't taken care of in the ways that he needed as a child, that I can now do that, and I can do it through acts of service with my daughter, I can do it through tending to my own uh uh healing and evolution. And when you really get that inner child connection, truly get it, not just talk about it as a concept.

SPEAKER_00: 20:59

That's right.

SPEAKER_01: 21:00

It's powerful.

SPEAKER_00: 21:01

Yeah. I had a, I forgot about this until you just brought this up. I had a meditation that I was in. I don't meditate regularly. I wish I did more. I just don't. Um, but every time I do, I really get a lot out of it. But it was only maybe like a month ago. And I was, I just had music on, I closed my eyes, you know, nothing crazy. And I I am a human that part of my adulthood and spirituality, the opening of that that's happened in the last several years, one of the ways that that has manifested itself is in visions. And um I I can't explain it other than sort of like watching a movie or seeing a photograph, but it's not real, and I'm not I'm not making it up like you would um if you were, you know, like say you wanted to envision something yourself at the finish line, whatever. It's not that where you're trying to make it right, it just sort of happens. Um, but it's not a memory, and and I'm it's just like watching something. And I was laying there um and listening to music, and I had I saw like I was in a forest, and I saw out of the woods, like one at a time, came these girls. And I realized I could see them far off, and then as they got closer, I realized they were me. And there were so to not go through the entire vision, but by the time it was all done, there were seven of them. And they started with me when I was little, like, you know, five, six years old, um, and kind of incrementally got older. And they didn't say anything, they just kind of walked over to me and we were all standing in a line, sort of like you'd see like a height line or something. It's like tall to like short.

SPEAKER_03: 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 22:49

Um, and then all I could see was the back of the lines. Like now I'm behind it in a scene, and I can see all of them lined up, including my current self. And then we all held hands. Oh, that's beautiful, and just walked, just like walked off into the sunset. And it was just there was no words, there was no nothing with it, but what I took from it and what I had been working on at the time was all around that sort of thing that like these are all parts of me. There's hard parts and sad parts and painful parts.

SPEAKER_02: 23:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:24

And there's a lot of beautiful like beautiful parts and magical. Um and it was just that it was all okay.

SPEAKER_02: 23:33

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00: 23:34

That it it can all exist together.

SPEAKER_02: 23:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:37

There's a lot of love wrapped around all of it, and like we can all keep going. I don't have to, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:43

Yeah, it sounds like it sounds like a vision of integration to me. And that is the that is the thing, isn't it? Like we have so many parts and they're all okay. And we part of one of the goals, at least for me, I think, is integration, to take the things that have felt like they've been pieces that have been abandoned or forgotten, or somehow they they're on the periphery, they haven't been tended to, and integrating them and being the fullest version of yourself that you can be. That's I think what's the most authentic self is the fullest version, an integration of every of everything that you are and everything that you want, and everything that you were. I was reminded while you while you were telling that story of the thing that became and still remains the most clear thing for me. And it's the thing that was that was most important for the little towel. The thing that I think is most important for my daughter. I think it's most important for my entire family, if I'm honest, including like my extended my parents, everyone. I also think it's the most important thing for me in business relationships. And it's a concept that I guess I kind of understood abstractly up until the last couple years, and it's the concept of regulation.

SPEAKER_02: 25:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 25:16

I didn't even know what emotional regulation was until a couple of years ago when I heard it on a podcast about healing. And he's like, for those of you who don't know what emotional regulation is, I'm going to go through it for you. And what he described, I understood in different, I was using uh different language around it, but the the word regulation and the way he described it, and the way he described it as a result of understanding how to emotionally regulate yourself by co-regulating with a family member, a mom or a dad. Sometimes maybe it's an older brother or an older sister if you have that fine that kind of family. But I realized how powerful that emotional regulation it was something that I don't think I really had taught to me as a kid. I had to learn it on my own. And I didn't call it that until I heard this podcast. And now I realize that that's my ultimate goal every day is to be as regulated as possible because the world is going to throw stuff at you, whether it's traffic or something that happens at work or in your family, and to be able to be centered, grounded, and steady to receive it and to act if necessary from that place is kind of like my ultimate goal now in life, to be as regulated as possible.

SPEAKER_00: 26:43

Aaron Ross Powell What helps you move in that direction?

SPEAKER_01: 26:48

Defining it was the first thing because then I could understand it.

SPEAKER_02: 26:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:54

I think it's a it's it's a process and it's a journey. My The tools that I use currently, I think, are part of a series of experiences that I've had over the last few years since I started to do uh a different kind of self-examination. I went to therapy. It's no one in my family has ever been to therapy. And I was in my 20s going, I I want to talk to somebody about my life. Like I feel like there's something that I need to be doing that I'm not doing.

SPEAKER_02: 27:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 27:30

And I didn't have a lot of tools. This is before the internet. I was just swimming around trying to figure it out. And I went to a couple of therapists in my 20s, and then I found one therapist in my 30s who was who like laid the groundwork for me. I was with her for eight years. She was wonderful. She also helped me to learn uh that self-examination, that evolution, that growth is kind of an ongoing process. And so I after after my relationship with her ended, I dabbled here and there, but I didn't really find another home for that kind of work until I started going to this retreat in New Mexico called Antara. And the woman who runs that and runs the runs the retreats, she has a really unique and it's a group setting, so it's a calling a group therapy is not accurate at all, but you're in a group, people are working on themselves over the course of a weekend in whatever manner makes sense to what they're working through. And when I started doing that, then I also started to peel away a lot of layers and look deeper beyond the Jungian psychology approach into a much more deeper spiritual, emotional approach where you're getting really into the mud of yourself and trying to find what's in there. And so as I was more and more on that journey, I was going deeper and deeper and finding more and more about myself, my the historical experiences that shaped me, the relationships in my family that shaped me. And all of that led me to uh in uh a very roundabout twisting ups and down path, it led me to uh having to kind of confront this very uh the the part of me that is kind of uh what's the word? On guard. You know, there's a better term for it.

SPEAKER_00: 29:48

I'm not thinking when you're bracing.

SPEAKER_01: 29:49

Yeah, like I'm kind of ready for something to happen.

SPEAKER_00: 29:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:54

Do you know what I mean? And so that put me in like kind of an automatically defensive stance. And so an offhand comment could carry the same weight to me as a as a intentionally negative criticism.

SPEAKER_02: 30:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:12

I was ready to fight them or myself on both. Like I was just I was just not in a position of receiving things. I felt like I was always ready to fight things and resist things and battle things. And as I as I kind of got to the very heart of it, I realized, okay, so here's the good news. You're sensitive. That's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02: 30:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:39

Like you can feel a lot, you can pick up on a lot. So that gives you really great capacities for love and support and empathy. Also, that sensitivity is gonna make you vulnerable to perceived attacks as well as actual intentional attacks, but those are so rare, you know, really in our adult lives. So I'm I kind of realize like I'm super sensitive and I'm always waiting for the person to do something that uh is gonna hurt me, that I think is gonna hurt me. And so I am going to be ready to defend and protect at all times. And well, that's that's not an open or vulnerable place. And that is not regulated. I'm ready to I'm ready to do battle at any time. And so I started to meditate, and that was a helpful way of grounding. And I start and having a daughter, you get having any child, I gotta say a daughter, it could be a son too, but having a young child under the age of five will give you ample opportunities to have to confront something highly emotional and that feels like very much an attack, and being able to practice not engaging with that attack and trying to be present and regulated. So so, and my wife is a she is a very wise and insightful person. And so she has also uh pointed out to me moments where I've had to catch myself uh in that protective stance and come down from it. And so regulation uh for the last couple of years has been my mantra. I want to be regulated, and I want to be steady. So if you're steady, then your energy can kind of steady the room. It can steady the child, certainly. They need to learn how to steady themselves in life. So you presenting steadiness will help them, it will be modeled for them, and they will be able to get upset and get over it and move on with their lives because they're learning that regulation with you. In a marriage, it's it's crucial. One person can be having a terrible day and be very, you know, kind of cranky. And if you match that energy, you've just upset the whole apple card. If you don't match it, then it helps the other person also to steady themselves and you can go on. In business in life, you are going to encounter a lot of people who are dysregulated. And if you meet them there, then you will not do anything to uh support the room. If you meet them in a place of regulation, then you can help support the room. I am that is that is what I am attempting to do in every meeting, in every client phone call, in every moment of coaching uh someone on my team in my marriage as a parent, in my friendships, uh I am my familial relationships, both my in-laws and my family of origin. I am wanting to try to be regulated and steady so that the room I'm in at least has that one anchor. And I feel like most people gravitate towards wanting to be steady, even if they don't know how to, wanting to be regulated. And so that's my daily intention.

SPEAKER_00: 34:29

So how do you like for people who haven't gotten this figured out yet and are still in the process of the messiness of learning it? How do you when you inevitably at some point react or don't get it right or miss the beat, or you do have a response that's not ideal, how do you move forward once it's already happened to get yourself back into a space without like beating yourself up?

SPEAKER_01: 34:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:57

You know?

SPEAKER_01: 34:58

I mean, I I I reacted yesterday. So I'm still a work in progress. I think the first thing that I do is own it.

SPEAKER_02: 35:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 35:12

What an amazing thing that is to be able to have take responsibility for your for the actions that you wish, that you regret, that you don't aspire to, but you did it anyway. If you if one can just take that responsibility and own it in the moment, my bad, I'm sorry, yep, I did that. That was that was a misstep, then the power of anyone else leveraging that against you is gone. Also, it rebuilds a kind of confidence to say, I made a mistake. If you don't say that, you're probably gonna feel shame about it. And the shame spiral will not take you anywhere closer to regulation at all. You probably will feel protective again and defensive again, and it's just gonna double back on itself. But there is a kind of confidence, maybe even a sort of pride in the good sense to say, like, I recognized my mistake, I owned it. And if apology and repair needs to happen, then you can do that. Another really, really great thing that I've learned from uh parenting that I try to take into the real world is you can say, ah, that I made a mistake there. That's my bad, I'm sorry. Can we have a do-over? Can we start over?

SPEAKER_02: 36:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:46

And you can say, I I do say those words with my daughter. You don't have to say it in exactly that way to another adult, but you can have the same intention. My bad, I'm sorry. Let me start again. This is what I'm really wanting to do, or this is what I'm really expecting or hoping that you'll get from this. And so that's the first step is ownership and not beating yourself up because every single person is going to make a mistake every single day, and that's absolutely okay. So ownership and trying to start again.

SPEAKER_02: 37:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:25

Those are the two things. And not not not dwelling on it. Because you can say, my bad, let's start again, and then go back to your office and be like, God, I can't believe I did that again. You can still hold on to it. You gotta let it go.

SPEAKER_00: 37:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:44

That's hard.

SPEAKER_00: 37:45

Um, it is.

SPEAKER_01: 37:46

That's hard for me. I will replay the dumb things I did over and over again.

SPEAKER_00: 37:50

Guilty also.

SPEAKER_01: 37:51

I don't know if I beat myself up over them. I guess I do. I guess that's a form of beating yourself up. But I will shake my head, why did you say that? Why did you do it that way? So letting go is a real important thing.

SPEAKER_00: 38:04

I will say I do that also. And especially if I care a lot about the thing or the person or the whatever it is that I did it in, I will do that. And I try to um like you said to sort of set it down and and I I can't go backwards from the thing, right? Um But I have a question. You said something about a topic that I love that I don't think gets talked about enough, um, which is repair.

SPEAKER_02: 38:32

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:33

I think um I would love to know what that means to you, what your definition of repair is, and what that looks like kind of in your world generally. I think a lot of people think that an apology is repair, just saying you're sorry.

SPEAKER_01: 38:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:49

Um, and I don't think it gets taught enough.

SPEAKER_01: 38:52

I mean, I'm gonna tell you what I think about repair. Yeah. I'm not an expert, but I will say that it is so important to include that step. Ownership and repair go hand in hand to me. And so for me, repair, and it it does start with an apology. And isn't it isn't it amazing how it seems like a such a simple thing what an apology is, but there are so many non-apology apologies out there. Do you know? I'm sorry if you felt that. That's not an apology. No. Anything.

SPEAKER_02: 39:36

No.

SPEAKER_01: 39:37

I think apology has to be a true moment of acknowledgement and regret. Even if it was accidental, if you accidentally spilled your drink on somebody, you can say, I'm you I truly am sorry that I did that. I can't change it. I can't I can't. can go to the to the to the waiter and try to get some towels and help that help you dab it up. But it was truly an accident. And I am truly sorry. I can't you're not going to say, I'm sorry if you feel like your dress got wet. You know, I mean it's you can truly mean it. And it was truly unintentional.

SPEAKER_02: 40:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 40:19

There are moments where we do things that are truly unintentional and we and we can still own that that was something you put something on another person and you can own it. I didn't mean to do that. I'm sorry I did it. I'm sorry that it turned out that way for you. I'm sorry that it hurt you. It was you know not my intention, but I am sorry. But when you've done something that you can own a a real sincere apology can be felt. You feel it when the other person really means it.

SPEAKER_02: 40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 40:50

And they feel it. And that's that's step one is that is to repair is doing that. Step two is what can I do? What can I do to make it better? And there might not be anything that can be done you can say I won't speak to you that way again. I won't forget your birthday again or whatever it may be. But a true ownership a true repair is an apology an ownership and then asking if there's something you can do to help uh to help the repair complete.

SPEAKER_00: 41:33

An action.

SPEAKER_01: 41:34

Yeah. I think so. The action part is hard. If you've spilled someone else's drink, you can go buy them another drink. That's easy. If you were if you've overlooked someone's day off and you were calling them and texting them and and they were like it was my day off and I was getting all these messages from you and it made me feel anxious because I didn't know if there was something going on and it's in the calendar and you didn't see that. You could say I'm sorry I did not see that. I don't know what you could do to repair it. You could just say I won't I will pay more attention to the c calendar this time. I don't know that there was anything else that one could do for that.

SPEAKER_00: 42:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 42:19

But I think sincerity is the is the goal for repair.

SPEAKER_00: 42:25

Well and I had it made me think of a I haven't thought about this in a really long time um a very long time ago boyfriend that I had when I was in college and um he would apologize for things and not change anything. Yeah and so it's like you're saying the thing but your actions are like when they say actions are louder than words. Oh yeah for a long time I just thought that was a cute saying and to get to the point where that that matters so much more. Like what what you're saying isn't in integrity or in alignment with what you're doing. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01: 42:56

Yeah. Integrity is such a good word. I think if you are operating with integrity at all times or as often as you can intentional with intentionality and integrity mistakes are forgivable much better because the person knows that you are a person of integrity. The person knows that you are not intentionally doing X to cause them pain or to cause them frustration even though they may feel it. Yeah and then that's where regulation comes in if that person is yelling at you for what you did and you are truly sorry and you're operating from integrity and intentionality and sincerity then being regulated and saying I hear you.

SPEAKER_03: 43:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:47

Yeah I get it you're frustrated A that calms them down because they have nothing really to yell against because you're not yelling and it it will then bring the the level to a place where they can see that you're still operating from integrity.

SPEAKER_00: 44:04

I'm curious what staying on the thread of integrity because I it's one of my favorite words since I spent many years where I was out of integrity with myself and I I don't know that I knew that at the time I think I was just trying to get by and doing the best I can sort of thing. And that came along with doing a lot of things behaviors actions that were very out of integrity with who I wanted to be in the world. So my question is when you are how do you get to become a person who is integrity if you are not currently I mean that's a great question.

SPEAKER_01: 44:43

I I don't know how qualified I am to answer it. I can just tell you that for me just like everything else has been a journey. Now I had a father who was a man of honesty and integrity and even though I don't know that he gave me lessons like something I want you to always remember you know but I just think I he modeled it and so I am aware of honesty and integrity as being just a very as a being an important part of your self identification. I have not always acted with integrity. In fact I can think of so many dozens probably of times more that I have acted out of integrity with myself out of integrity with a philosophy that I think my father embodied but I also know that I find it to be incredibly important in who I am now and how I try to operate. I'll give you an example yesterday we went somewhere that that they only accepted cash for parking I had a little cash on me but not enough that they were asking. So I said to the woman I don't have you know$10 in cash on me. She's like no problem pay me when you leave and there was an ATM inside so I went to the ATM before we left I got money out. I drove out the exit and what's interesting is the way her the way she was like set up to receive she was only viewing the people who were entering so the people who were exiting were just exiting. She would have never seen me leave.

SPEAKER_02: 46:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 46:24

She had no idea that I was even exiting because of the way her setup was faced. But I stopped the car and I got out and I walked around to where she was and I said I'm paying for my parking and uh I just couldn't do it any other way. Even though I wouldn't have gotten caught I would have caught myself.

SPEAKER_00: 46:45

Yes and I love that sorry I almost jumped jumped out of my seat over here because it's something that um you know and I'll use an example from recovery because it's just what is in my head. But that being out of integrity or or the things you're doing it's like when you're you know pushing a grocery cart like do you put your cart back when no one's looking sort of thing when you're at the very far end of the parking lot. But there was a I was in a meeting one time and somebody was talking about like using right substances and he was telling the story about how for a long time he was was trying to not use things like around people so nobody saw you know because it was about whether people saw him or not. And um this other guy just shared in the moment he's like you know I used to do that. Like it was I was trying to look good whether you saw me or didn't see me mattered how I functioned and how I made choices because it was about the perception. But he was like but but today you can leave me alone in a liquor store in the middle of Nevada and I'm not I'm not going to touch anything because I care because I'll know and it's not about hiding it from someone else it's about the choices that you make for yourself. And that has become I just I agreed so much with what he said for myself personally, but it's just who I am and how I function in the world the choices that I make are so much bigger than who sees them. And it's become the life that I live and who I want to be and the legacy I want to leave is so much greater than the image of whether or not that's perceived. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01: 48:23

It does I it's your self-image that that you are that you are connected to. And I guess it's the same for me. I don't want to do something that I can look that I can't look at myself and say, why did you do that?

SPEAKER_02: 48:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 48:39

I don't want to look at myself in the mirror the internal mirror or the actual mirror and say that's the guy that didn't pay the parking and I just I just can't do it. Not now. Would I have done it in my younger days? I don't know. Maybe I may I totally would have I probably have to your example.

SPEAKER_00: 49:01

I probably would have but not now and I think I had um I've I've just noticed more in the last we'll say three four years that something has become true that didn't used to be true for me.

SPEAKER_02: 49:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 49:15

And it's the most fascinating thing and I love it so much. And I heard myself say it one day and I I sort of like stopped and was like did I just say that and it was I was talking to someone and I just said out loud I really like myself.

SPEAKER_01: 49:29

Oh that's great.

SPEAKER_00: 49:30

And I meant it and then I got curious because I was like where did that come from? Because it was true. And I I spent years thinking that I had to do more yoga or lose weight or do you know do all of these external things in order to get to a place where I really liked myself. And so I got curious about what was the source of this thing because it it was true. And I I sort of because I'm overly analytical I went home and wrote down all these different things about do I think it was this do I think it was that well that hasn't changed from before I was sort of comparing my life before my job isn't better. You know, all of these things and when I got to the end of the list I had crossed off all these things it's not this it's not this it's not my weight it's not my hair it's not my job or you know a man or whatever where you live it had only there was only one thing left and it was it came down to the choices that I made. I really really like the choices that I make and that doesn't mean there's not hard things in there but I will often for what I respect in myself and in other people I will choose the brave choice. I will choose I will often take a risk like smart risks risks that put me a little bit on my edge of my comfort zone because I know it'll make me grow and I like that I do that I will go first. I'll raise my hand and I'll speak so that it gives other people permission to do the same thing. I will do things like pay for parking right and it's when no one's looking and it's like all of these choices that I've made some out loud some that people know about but a lot of them sort of behind closed doors and I'm going to do this differently and this is what I believe in. Those choices are very, very in alignment with not only what I believe is integrity of the person I want to be, but if you sort of um see like the future version of you, right? Like that that distant version of the man you would want to become right at the at the end of this road, the legacy that you want to leave, I started making choices from her.

SPEAKER_02: 51:41

What does she do? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 51:42

Right. And so you sort of have to live into the woman or man that you want to become yeah and it it changed everything because it changed how I saw myself. Sometimes it's hard you see yourself now with all your flaws and your whatever but if you're if I'm making choices from her it holds me to a higher standard because she is great.

SPEAKER_01: 52:02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 52:03

And so somewhere in doing that and it's not every moment of every day but a lot of what what what do I want to do? What is that version of me? What does she do? And then I do that today. Even if it's scary some of it has been things that made me nervous like the good kind of nervous the leaning in um this is true this apartment I I was in a smaller apartment on a different floor and um the human that lived above me was very loud and would come home at three, four or five o'clock in the morning multiple nights a week and it sounded like a bull in a China shop. And I am not being traumatic like would wake me up and then it got to the point where I'm anticipating. So I'm bracing and nervous because I don't even it was no consistency to this. And it's affecting my sleep it's causing me stress. I'm not relaxed it's just causing me all sorts of stress and so this happened one this happened one day uh last year three nights in a row and on the third night I had a really big wedding the next day and so I was just I I didn't sleep at all. I was exhausted and so I went down to the office in the morning and I had I had sort of mentioned it before but I'm trying to like let other people have their experience and they live here too you know and I was like I'm I need I need you to do something here because I can't it's literally causing my well being to be so out of whack that I can't even function. And so I sat and talked to them at the office and they heard me and she had me email this manager and so I did that and she responded very kindly and she was like I I hear you that's really frustrating and I'm sorry. And I said can you move me up to the top floor and and she gave me my options and one of them was that I couldn't move into the same size apartment. Like I was not allowed. That wasn't a choice. They would they would move me to a bigger apartment I had to go at least the next size up and they wouldn't charge me the transfer fee for breaking my lease because it was like an internal there's a reason I was the lease would still exist. Right. But it was that lease would break I would have a new a new lease but I had to upgrade right and the difference per month in an upgrade was not small. And I thought about it, prayed about it was like this is pushing my limit on you know I like to be comfortable I like to have a certain amount of savings and this and that and I was like this is going to stretch me a lot. And yet everything in my being was not only for my sanity for the physical like experience that I was having that this my home matters too much to me for it not to be comfortable safe relaxing somewhere that I can decompress when I get back from all of being out in the world. So not only does that matter but when you keep in mind how I live which is very much intentional to move forward to become that bigger better version of me that creates impact, creates things in the world that cause change, build things, and helps people help themselves which is such a passion of mine. Yeah that version of me says yes to things and takes risks and leans in and knows the value of all of the the things there that are not monetary, right? We're just talking about monetary in the increase of cost. But all the other things you're not seeing all the things I didn't learn growing up like it would just be a financial decision, not like what about the effort, energy, time all of these things that you aren't really measurable in the same way. She makes decisions like a badass. And so when it came to this choice, I I thought about it for a little bit and I was what I was nervous about was just that's that's going to make it really tight.

SPEAKER_02: 55:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 55:50

And I didn't think long about it because I know who I want to become and what I want to live into. And I said okay I'm gonna upgrade and went downstairs I signed the contract and then I just trusted and then I I did say I prayed about it and I was like you know what I'm listening. I'm doing the things that you said you know I think that I'm should be doing for the right reasons. This matters to me but I need to feel safe and I need to make sure that I can afford where I'm living and three months later I got promotion that I did not know was coming at the time.

unknown: 56:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 56:25

Oh yeah and so it but the timing on that and the trusting of that it's like there's sometimes you're flying on faith and it's hard and you can't see the thing.

SPEAKER_01: 56:37

You're kind of always flying on faith. There are there are shorter flights and there are longer flights.

SPEAKER_00: 56:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 56:43

But we all are flying on faith.

SPEAKER_00: 56:46

Yeah but that's a that's an example of leaning into the thing taking a risk being in integrity with who I want to be I keep saying and like the universe does this say what you want to say it has happened to me so many times where you get tested of like you said you wanted this thing. Are you really going to show up for it? And it's like I keep saying I want to lean in I have a vision very clearly of who I want to keep becoming are you going to become her? Because she doesn't balk at that choice and she trusts that she's helped in that experience.

SPEAKER_01: 57:16

But it's a really beautiful like it's hard to walk that in real life in a tangible world you know it is it is I am I mean I need to keep bringing this back to parenting but that's where we started I am also aware that I read a quote I'm I think I'm gonna butcher it but I read a quote that said something like be the person that your child will say they want to be just like or something I'm paraphrasing it terribly but basically when your kids grow up and they look at you and they think about you they will say oh I want to be like my mom or I want to be like my dad in a good healthy way. They are they're seeing you as a real role model and behaving in a way in life in which the people that are nearest and dearest you see you as someone of integrity someone a role model someone they appreciate even if it's your partner especially almost if it's your partner then you're also doing that same kind of future thinking in your current in your current behavior choice choices around your behavior.

SPEAKER_00: 58:44

Yeah. Um and so I'm gonna tell you something else funny. So I pull cards that's the thing that I do and we sometimes talk about intuition and the way smoke works. Um and so I wrote this down before you came in because it was a card I pulled and I didn't know why that it it was bothering me. But we've never talked about this. Let's get it but um it goes a it goes very hand in hand with what we've already been talking about in terms of integrity and repair and how you show up in the world. And that is commitment. And so I'm curious of what your relationship to commitment has been like whether it's committing to parenting committing to a partnership with a wife that you're someone you're gonna do life with committing to a job what has that been like for you how have you changed in that over time boy yeah commitment.

SPEAKER_01: 59:37

I feel like all right so the dark and the light of commitment is what's coming to me. Yes and the dark part of commitment is getting stuck it's not it it's committing for commitment Its sake or committing for the sake of be uh of uh leveraging something somehow. I'm committed, you're not committed, you know, that kind of thing. And I have found myself on the dark side of commitment where I have agreed to be in some kind of relationship and stayed in that relationship only because I was, and I'm using air quotes, committed to it, beyond what was healthy, perhaps, or beyond what was necessary for my own self-care. So I would stay, I stayed in maybe personal relationships, maybe some friendships, certainly some professional relationships longer than I should have because of the negative, dark shadow side. Let's call it the shadow side of commitment. Um that's in that's instructive. I don't I don't I think I have learned to recognize the shadow side of commitment and and not and and and be informed by it as I make decisions for real the light side of commitment, which which is so much deeper. There's a real depth to true commitment. I mean, marriage is certainly an incredible challenge and an incredible place to experience deep, deep commitment. Because on the daily, things can be difficult. Small things and big things can be difficult. But real commitment says, yeah, and we're gonna keep going. Because we're committed to what we're doing together, we're committed to each other, we're committed to this third thing we call our marriage, I'm committed to you, you're committed to me, I'm committed to myself, you're committed to yourself. We're committed to this third thing we call us, and we're committed to this fourth thing that we call the family, and we are truly committed. And so real commitment is doing something, is staying with something that has a profound importance to you. And the shadow side for me, like I think about this business relationship that I was in for much longer than I should have been, at least in the iteration that I was in it at the time. You know, I kind of said, I'm committed, like I'm a person of integrity. I don't just leave. And and all of that is just lip service to the fact that I had some fear and some uncertainty. And so I dressed it up as commitment. And I used commitment to defend my inability to act.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:01

Ooh, that was good.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:04

And that's a shadow of commitment, is that you can be gripped by fear and cling to commitment because you're gripped by fear, versus having a more uh a wider aperture of of where you are, knowing that it's that there's going to be bumps along the way, but still staying committed. Yeah, I haven't thought about that in a long time. I really made some mistakes in in commitment.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:36

The the relationship that I should have either exited or changed significantly, but I didn't because I was dressing up as commitment. That's that's one very big one. And I I had I had decided in my twenties to kind of reject the college, job, wife, house, kids path. And I basically got rid of everything and moved to New York, and I was going to study and start becoming an actor. And how committed was I to being an actor? There were times in those years that I was so deeply committed to it. I felt like I was in the right place. I was poor as a church mouse, but I didn't care. Also, I was younger, I didn't have a wife or kids, that was just me. So if I ate ramen for dinner, who cares? Right. But anyway, so I was so committed to it. And then there came a time where I had to question that commitment. And I don't know if I made the right decision objectively, universally speaking, if I could go back and do the sliding doors thing where I look at my life, which way was the right way. I feel like I'm in the right place in my life right now.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:53

And I feel like maybe I didn't quite see it through as an actor. They're both true. I have a former friend, and I say former not because we had a falling out, but because I he went his way and I went my way, and we haven't been in touch in years, many, many, many years. But he was also an actor. And the last I heard of him, he was still committed to it. And he was still in the struggling phase. He had never gotten over the struggling phase. And I think he was okay to still be in the struggling phase, even though he'd been it for 15 years or more. But I look at that and I say, I wouldn't want to be that. I wouldn't want to be still in the struggling phase after almost 20 years of being an actor. I would I don't think I would be happy in that phase. So did I do the right- I mean, I can't tell you if I was going to make a career. And who knows, maybe if I stayed with it, the struggling phase wouldn't have been wouldn't have felt like a struggling phase in the way that it does when I look at it from distance.

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:58

So I look back sometimes and I say, how committed was I to that? I don't maybe I wasn't as committed as I thought I was.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:07

And I couldn't imagine myself anywhere but where I am right now. I I am the life I have right now is so full and feels so right that I wouldn't want it any other way.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:22

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I have my own version of the staying in it for the wrong reasons, so to speak. And um It was somewhat of a that's actually a lie. I almost said it was somewhat of somewhat of a battle when I got divorced in my own head because of commitment. That's actually not true. I was okay with it because I was done. But just I care and I did make a commitment to someone, and that was important to me. That I don't take that lightly when I commit to anything.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:06:53

Um, and also at the at the seat of which I broke the commitment somewhere along the way that happened and I I don't know when it happened, I lost me. And I use this example. I don't know if I've ever said this out loud actually, but when I think of my marriage, I use the example. Have you ever heard of the like frog in a pot of boiling water? So right, so I'm gonna say it anyway, but if you have a pot of boiling water and you put a frog in, um, the frog will jump out because it knows that it's a bad environment, that it's gonna die in and so it'll leave. But if you put a frog in a pot of water that's cold and then slowly bring it to boil over time, it doesn't recognize the change in temperature because it's so slow and incremental, and it doesn't know that its environment has not become dangerous and um it doesn't know to leave. And so it'll stay and eventually die because it doesn't make it doesn't recognize the vast difference because of this the slow incremental change. And that was what my marriage was like. And that's a very small example for a very large experience. But at the seat of which I was asking these questions, and how did I get here? And like there wasn't, you know, when you have a catalytic event like a car crash, um, a fire, a you know, something like that that you can see the thing that happened, the start and the beginning, the giant, you know, we call it big T trauma versus what my life has been, and I didn't know this until I went to therapy, which has been for years since I was young, lots of little tea trauma, things that were subtle that I didn't know how to name, things like gaslighting and manipulation, and what is this and how did this happen, and small changes over time. It's like, well, when I when I said yes to that marriage, it was a very different thing than I said yes to than what it had become.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:48

Right. And at what point, you know, millions of people have asked the should I stay or should I go, whether it's a relationship or a job. And I I did eventually leave that. And I have, you know, I that was the right choice. Like there's not a there's not a question there for me. But it's just something I've considered over years since then, how I've changed, what am I committed to now? And I think one of the best things I did was recommit to me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:15

And went backwards for a while to do a lot of healing work before I could go forward. And it was messy and hard and uncomfortable, but so worth it. And that was I was very sure that I was committed to that for myself.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:30

So that I I was not interested in repeating patterns. And I wanted to keep getting better. Yeah. And so that was a thing that I committed to. And then something else that I'm very committed to is bravery and what that looks like for me, which may be different than someone else, but the willingness to take a risk or say yes or lean in, or I'm not sure, but we're gonna try this. Um so I'm curious what what are you committed to these days?

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:03

I want to answer that question, but I have another question.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:05

Yes, please ask.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:07

Your story reminds me uh or puts me in mind of a question about commitment because we're talking about committing as individuals to a person or a thing, a job, an institution. How does someone else's lack of commitment impact your commitment? Right? So uh a cheating spouse or a or a or a business associate who is not operating out of integrity or is feels untrustworthy. You commit, one commits, and one in in relationships uh expects that another will commit.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:49

And so now we are both committed.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:51

Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:52

And then the other's commitment changes. What impact does that have then?

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:57

Oh, it's a massive impact. Right. Sure.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:59

Your commitment changes completely. And it's interesting because our commitment does depend on the other. Just like even in the my example earlier about acting. I was committed to acting. Well, is acting committed to me, right? I don't know that it was. But but we do have to be commitments are to a street.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:25

So our commitment to a relationship is an interdependent commitment.

SPEAKER_00: 1:11:33

It is. And I think because when you have that and someone else either their commitment changes, they change, whatever, the thing that they wanted, they no longer want, or whatever, then enters choice. Right? But even so, what you're doing, what I'm they affect each other.

unknown: 1:11:49

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:50

Yeah. And I think that that it then that it then draws back to your commitment to yourself. Like you just said, I'm committed to myself. I'm committed to integrity. I'm uh so integrity asks me to exit a relationship when the commitment equality has changed so significantly that I no longer feel uh that being a part of this relationship is healthy or meaningful or fill in the blank.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:20

Aaron Powell Well, and I think that that same on that same token that like because I am committed to me and I I've gotten clear on my own values and what are the things I hold in highest regard for myself, then if I'm l leaning in and listening to that and following that, when I enter into, you know, into contact with people who are out of integrity or not in the same boat, it's sort of a filter, like a filtering system, my own integrity. Because I've found the more like I've the more that I've that's been true for me, the more my orbit has changed. And the people in my circle or in my world or that I let in in any way, mental, emotional, physical is very different because I have higher standards.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:03

Yeah. It's a qualifier.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:06

Yeah. You asked me what I'm committed to.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:09

That was a great question, by the way.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:10

It's just it it's an interesting topic.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:13

So fascinating. I mean, I'm committed to some things that are are obvious, like my marriage, but I want to talk about commitment to things that are that are uh less defined.

SPEAKER_02: 1:13:29

Yeah. Like that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:30

I I think I think that uh the first thing I want to be committed to is to growth. To never stop being committed to growth. To never stop being committed to being open and receptive. And to never well, it's hard to say, so I'm committed to growth. I'm committed to being open, receptive, vulnerable even in my life. And for me, the I will almost this was the third thing I was going to say, uh, which is committed to myself. That's a hard one to define. It's broad. So because growth is a part of who I am, and being open and vulnerable and receptive is a part of who I am and how I move to the world. Uh I am committed to wanting to always strive to be my best self, my most authentic self. And those are the things that I feel like I can wake up every day and say, this is what I'm committed to. I'm the big things and the small things that I do during the day will have those intentions behind them. I think often, at least the way that I can sometimes define a commitment to oneself is similar to what people call self-care. And I am not good at that. And it is it is something I'm really not good at. I my wife is so good at it. And I am not good at it, and I have to say that I don't even know if I could define it. It's not massages and things like that. Sure, going out to dinner with a a buddy. It's a small little moment of self-care to spend time with a friend. But for me to define how I take care of myself is is difficult. I feel like I am, whether through an adaptation of growing up or a natural inclination, maybe some combination and of all of the above, I want to take care of others. I want to take care of my family. I want to take care of uh I want to make sure that my uh direct reports in the business feel taken care of. I want to make sure that uh the people that I am close to, my friends outside of my family, feel like I am uh taking care is not the right word, but that I'm invested and interested in them. So for me to turn around and say, how am I invested and interested in taking care of myself? I don't know how to answer that. I really don't. I think a lot of men don't.

SPEAKER_00: 1:16:22

Yes, I would agree.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:25

I think it's cultural. I think it's also just kind of masculine in a particular way. My father, he's retired now. And one of the things that he does with full support from my mom is play golf twice a week. And I think that's a a sort of a self-care for him. He gets out with some guys that he is friends with, they enjoy competitive games, they play enjoy the courses, they get a little exercise, and and I'm very like I'm cheering him on to do that. I I will call him once a week and say, how was your golf game? And we'll talk about it. And he's so enthusiastic about it. I don't have a thing like that. I mean, it could be golf, you know. I played golf all growing up, and but I just I don't prioritize that, and I don't know that I could even define what that prior priority would be for me. I just don't know Yeah, I don't I I just it's a it's a blind spot for me. So I'm committed to being my best self and growth and and receptivity and I don't know what self-care means. Yeah, fair. Like both things can be true. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:46

And I love that because it's it's it leaves room, right? Because you're also evolving. You said the word evolution earlier, and that does change, and like what I needed ten years ago or what self-care looked like that is very different than what it does now. Yeah, you know. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:02

But commitment is just I think it's really beautiful. I've it I've enjoyed part of a delight that I've experienced in getting older is that the things I'm committed to has changed, you know, have changed. And I like that. Yeah. I don't I don't want the same things. You know, and sometimes I'll joke about it with people who are younger or whatever. The things that they're doing on a Friday night is probably very different than what I'm doing on a Friday night.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:29

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:30

And we're we just have different commitments.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:32

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:33

They're not better or worse, they're just different.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:35

Um, but I've enjoyed finding things that I have more passionate about than I am that do light me up in a different way than than I did when I was twenty one.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:44

Yeah, same.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:45

You know?

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:46

A hundred percent the same.

SPEAKER_00: 1:18:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:49

One of my small moments of real peace uh happens almost every morning. I am uh, and maybe this is a little piece of self-care now that we're talking about it. I wake up extremely early with no alarm. I will wake up between 5 and 5:30 every morning, just naturally wake up. I go downstairs and I take care of the cats, I feed them. I will make my daughter's lunch, and I will pray and I will meditate. I will make myself a cup of coffee, and I will sit in the dark, and I will read the news, play Wordle, which my dad and I send to each other every day. And I have probably about an hour and a half of dark quiet to myself in the morning. And I look forward to that. That is a moment of self care, I think.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:53

That's absolutely self-care.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:54

Uh and and and I've cared for others, like the cats get their food, and like they're swirling all around my feed running. Against me, they're so excited to be fed, you know. Um my daughter's lunch is ready and on the counter. That's a an act of real love and service. And I think and I and I want to do it. Yeah. You know, if my wife is is is traveling or doing something early in the morning, I want to make sure I get her suitcase out and a bottle of water for her to have in the car, whatever I can do. Those acts of seva. Do you know that term, seva? It's a it also means service. I think it I think it is Hindu, but don't, you know, when you do the fact check on this, you'll need to you'll need to check that one. But it's a it's a concept that was introduced to me when I started doing this work at Antara. And it has been really transformative. Sava is acts of service, but the way that I understand it from my work there is that it's acts of service that are given freely, lovingly. There's a sacred component to it, there's no expectation of reciprocity. So I have this little particular bugaboo that I want the dishes to be clean in the sink every night.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:25

And I have now in my house, I have my wife, my daughter, my 21-year-old, and me. We do a lot of cooking, breakfast, lunch, dinner, coffee, tea, snacks. There's a lot of cooking that happens. Now, during this season, we're baking cookies, and there's so there's just a lot of activity in the kitchen. And so previously, years ago, before I started doing this work, uh, I would go in there and clean it up resentfully. You know, no one else is going to do it. I have to do it. This is, you know, no one cares. They're taking advantage of me. They just dump their stuff in the sink. And I would really, I could really get on my high horse of resentment about doing it. And when I started learning about Seva, it's it's things you do for others and it's sacred. It's holy. And so I started saying, I want to do the dishes with Seva. I want to do the dishes as a as a service of love and with a holy component to it. It's it's work I'm doing not just for my family, not just for me, but also as a as a service to in a holy way that I am almost almost like a mantra or a prayer, this service. Not that I stand over it and pray and do mantra, but it's it's in the same family of acts that you do uh when you are in praise or worship of your higher power. So now two things have happened. One, I do this without resentment. I mean, sometimes I'll walk to the sink and I'll be like, okay, so a lot of saver today. You know. And sometimes like, oh, okay, just a little bit of saver today. But also I feel more empowered to ask for help. So before I would think like I have to do everything and I'm just man, and I was like, oh, and full victim consciousness over it. And now I will say to um my 21-year-old, I've just cleaned the sink, cleaned the dishes, put everything in dishwasher, dishwasher, I've started the dishwasher. I want you to unload the dishwasher when it finishes today. I'll be at work, you'll be at home, will you unload it for me?

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:57

And invariably he says, Yes, of course, no problem. So it has made this little moment in the kitchen, it's made it like a peaceful place for me to do what I need to do, but also to ask for help when it's needed. And this this thing of seva has really become a powerful component of serving. And I think serving is something that I also uh something I also want to commit to.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:31

Serving my family, sir serving the the people in my life, serving others outside of my life when and where I can. I and that that could be something as simple as taking clothes to Goodwill or some other uh community service. It could be volunteering. It can't there's so it can take so many small and large um uh moments. And service is is an important thing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:02

Well, and you changed, you changed is the whole thing, the scenario is still the same, the dishes are still there. You changed you.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:09

Right? And the the approach of which you walked up to the sink.

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:13

And instead of coming from the victim mindset, like you said originally, you're coming from a place of service. Yeah. And it I wrote down something because it made me think of when we were talking about commitment, like commitments you have to do versus commitments you want to do.

SPEAKER_01: 1:25:29

You choose to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:30

And I think that that's I'm uncovering this as we're talking right now, but I think that those commitments, the ones that I mean, I said some of them, I have other things, but like things that I'm committed to for the most part, I really want to do. And so it makes it makes the yes so much easier to not only say in the first place, but the follow-through because it's so much bigger than just me. Mm m most of the things that I'm committed to, right?

SPEAKER_02: 1:25:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:58

And so it's about other people, it's about impact. A lot of it is about service, and that matters so much to me to to take what I've been given and transmute, transform it into into something that can be a gift to someone else.

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:14

And how can we create impact and change and keep healing things and keep making the world better? It's so high to me. I could be annoying how much I talk about it and think about it. Yeah. But that form of commitment, so many things are are rooted to the same, to the same place of service because I care that it makes commitment easy.

SPEAKER_02: 1:26:34

It does.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:35

In the sense of, and again, not everything and not all the time, but overall the thing I committed to, I'm such a yes for.

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:26:44

That even in the minutia of the day to the day, when I'm irritable about something or I don't want to do this thing, or I'm late, or I'm tired, if I if I even just for a minute remember why I'm here, like the why of something, I'll I'll pretty easily step back into place because I care so much.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27:01

Yeah. Yeah. And and no one, I don't think anyone says that you can't do good and be cranky.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:27:11

You know? Uh you can. And um, I've even heard stories uh about you know people who are doing uh Seva. So uh Ama is, do you know who Ama is? She was she's been called the hugging saint, and she is what people would consider now an awakened being, you know, someone who's got a full and direct uh open channel to the divine. And she goes uh all around and and holds these services where they're singing and praying, and and it's like a revival, what you would think of of a revival in in Protestant, uh especially old-time Protestant religion, like these big revivals where there's preaching and singing and healing and all of this going on. Well, she does things like this, they're they're very different in tone. Uh and but they're she's there, there's praying, there's singing, and she will give a darshan or a blessing by hugging people. And uh anyway, so Ama is this great source of wisdom. And I have heard that the people who travel with her, a significant number of them, uh they're not being paid. They're going on pretty much their own time. They may get some small per diem, but basically they have to do all of this as a part of their seva.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:35

And um so uh my teacher, Jan from Antara, has been on many of the of the uh experiences with AMA all over the country. And she says that you can go, and sometimes the people who are doing seva are the grouchiest. Like they've been serving food for 14 hours, they're exhausted, they're cranky, they're grouchy, and they're still doing their seva. And I think it's okay, you can serve and be grouchy sometimes. It's not you don't have to be pure of of heart uh uh and clear of eye at every moment that you're serving someone. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:15

Well, and it's just to come false or call on all the stuff we talked about with parenting, with com all the things is that like all of it's valid and real, right? Whether you're in the dark or the light of something, whether it's your past and wounds and things that are are, you know, when I talked about those seven different versions of me, like all the different parts of you that you've reparented. Yeah, it's like you don't arrive. There's not a perfect place where it's all good and you're all better and everything's great. I do think you can get better. I've gotten better. I feel a lot better than I used to on a daily for sure.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:51

But it's like all of those other parts of you that are there, all of the all of the full range of emotion, the full spectrum, all the things in material. Have you ever seen the feelings wheel or the feelings chart?

SPEAKER_01: 1:30:02

We have a feelings chart hanging in our daughter's bedroom.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:04

Okay. So you know how many feelings are. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:30:06

A lot of feelings.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:07

Um they're just there's so like nuanced between certain things. It's like, ah, this one's a little bit nicer than that one, you know. But there's just space for all of it. Yeah. And it's all valid.

SPEAKER_01: 1:30:18

It's all valid. And and I uh you said something earlier. I want to just go back to it because I think it's so universally important. You said we were talking about service, and you said it's a part of healing. And it absolutely is, which is almost counterintuitive when you think about it. Hey, I need healing. Can everyone come over here and do something that will heal me? Right? But it's really outward. You're gonna do things that heal yourself, and you're gonna do things for others that that help heal you. Healing, to me, healing is universally the most important thing that needs to happen for every single individual on this planet. I don't know how we can preach healing to the world, because I think there's a gr huge amount of people who don't want to hear about it. But I would have never called it healing before. I'm in therapy. Yeah, I'm in therapy. You know, my parents they don't even say therapy, they're in counseling.

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:21

Oh.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:22

Right?

SPEAKER_00: 1:31:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 1:31:23

So old school, they can't even say therapy. They say, She's in counseling, you know, her daughter's in counseling. You know, they or or they'll even say to me, how's this how's it going in counseling? They can't they can't even say therapy. Now, I said therapy when it was when that's all I that I knew. Yes. But when I discovered that healing and therapy, they're two different things. They're connected, of course they are, but they're two very different things. So in a way, I feel like I've graduated from therapy to healing. And healing is first off, it's a never-ending process. It's healing is you're always healing. Healing yourself also heals others. You know, the hurt people, hurt people, and heal people, heal people. It's so true. And it goes back to our original conversation about regulation. A regulated person helps to regulate others. So I will never stop. That's another commitment I will make. I will never stop healing myself, helping those I love find places where they need to be healed, wounds that I can help be aware of and tend to and heal. Anytime I look at politics, or even beyond politics, it doesn't even have to be politics, it can just be the the pop culture in general, and I see people acting in extreme ways, especially extremely negative ways. I just think they are in such pain. They are struggling. They are really struggling. They need some love, they need some support, they need some healing. They probably have needed it for a long time. And they don't have it, they never got it, and now here they are in a position of power or a position where they get a voice in the in the news media, and they're saying things that other unhealed people are agreeing with and hearing, and they're all bonding over this thing when I just wish they were bonding over the parts that are hurt that need some healing.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:36

Yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:33:39

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:40

I have one more question. Okay. Because otherwise I will talk to you all day.

unknown: 1:33:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:33:45

This is gonna be like a three-part or I know I have other now, like we can't go down this program if I'm literally never messed up. What is something that you hope that listeners give themselves permission to do after hearing this conversation?

SPEAKER_01: 1:33:59

Hmm Gosh. I mean, there's so many things. I really I feel like I need to nail it. Uh but there's not one right answer. Right, of course, there's a million right answers. I think that if I were to pick anything from this conversation, it would be it's okay to make mistakes. And it's okay to acknowledge those mistakes, and it isn't a reflection on who you are. You can make mistakes and still be good.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34:43

Love that. Thank you so much for spending time with me.

SPEAKER_01: 1:34:48

It's been great.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34:48

I love this. Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to NataniaAllison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.