EP20: Resiliency, Reclaimed | The Fire and the Joy of a New Life — with Haven Thomas

"We want what you guys are on!" 
That’s what a young couple told today’s guest Haven Thomas while she was dancing sober at a club with her partner.  Their secret? No "magic potions"—just recovery, better company, and a reclaimed sense of self.

One of the biggest hurdles to starting recovery is the fear that life is about to become stiff, bitter, and boring. In this episode, Haven and I dismantle that myth. From roller skating at Pride to seeing UK DJs in Milwaukee, we talk about how we traded "gripping" onto a life of peril for a life of genuine, hilarious, and memorable fun.

Main highlights from our conversation:

• The "99% Sober" Trap: Why keeping one foot in and one foot out is the most exhausting way to live, and why "taking it off the table" is the only way to find true clarity.
• The Exit Strategy: The tactical power of giving yourself permission to leave any situation that "sucks"—and why having your own car is a sobriety superpower.
• The 100% Success Rate: A powerful perspective on resiliency—remembering that no matter how many "crazy positions" you’ve been in, you have a perfect record of figuring it out so far.

Haven’s story is proof that you don't have to lose your "fire" to find your peace. You don’t have to be in peril to choose a better path—you just have to be willing to take the old one off the table.

Full show notes at https://www.netanyaallyson.com/episodes/20

Transcript

Netanya 0:09

Podcast is about the twin point that things I wish about the other talk about. I'm your host Natalia and I do know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause any time you need to. Take whatever rest needs for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Haven Thomas. Haven and I get into resiliency and how to keep getting back up again after life has knocked you down a few times in a row. We talk about exit strategies and the importance of giving yourself permission to leave situations that are not good for you. And we laugh a lot in this episode. We get into the concept of fun, having fun, and how important that is, especially in the space of doing really hard or deep work on yourself. So here we go. I really go ahead.

Haven 1:31

Oh, I was just saying I'm so grateful to be here. I'm so grateful to talk to you. It's been how many years has it been? I haven't seen you in like three years. I've lived here for three years. Yeah. Okay.

Netanya 1:44

Yeah. And I'm always excited to talk to people on here, but I was just a little bit extra when it came to you because it's, you know, it's just been a while. And um we just used to have such great conversations up in the little clubhouse.

Haven 1:58

Yeah, totally. And I have to tell you, like for me and my um recovery, there's been a handful of people that have been really meaningful and influential,

Defining Resiliency and the "Fire" Within

Haven 2:09

especially when I was first trying to get like my my bearings and my feet under me. And you were very, very instrumental in helping me find my place in my recovery and helping me figure out my foundation of how it was gonna look and what I was going to like get out of this, I guess, you know. Um, so you definitely are important to me. I value you a lot.

Netanya 2:36

Thank you for saying that. That was really beautiful. And I have a same, same respect for you. One of my favorite things about you is you have such, it's actually what I wrote notes about to talk to you about, is that you have such resiliency. And I watched you get kicked over and get back up and be like, uh-uh, you know, like we're not done. This is not how this is gonna go. Um, and you, and in many areas of your life, right? Not just recovery, but you have such a fire about you and it's it's so inspiring. Um, but that's actually where I wanted to start was with the concept of resiliency and what that means to you, where you have felt that that was something that you got to practice throughout your life and wherever you want to take that.

Haven 3:25

Ah, yeah, I think that um recognizing how resilient I am, but especially in the rooms of recovery, like addicts in general, like, damn, we really are some resilient people, you know. And I I remember having a moment of like I've always been hard-headed, you know, and being like, all right, for once I'm gonna like use this to benefit me and not allow addiction to like rule my life anymore. And I'm not gonna like uh let it be like this. But I think that my parents had me in high school when they were 17. I was day day before my mom's 17th birthday, I was born. Wow. And um, they are still together. They just celebrated like 33 years, 32 years of marriage uh the day before yesterday. Um so watching them throughout my childhood and adolescence, they were very resilient. They worked really, really hard and made sure that like they were always just figuring it out, right? And making things happen. So I kind of like saw that in my upbringing. Um and I think I've put myself in in a lot of crazy positions in my life. Um and because of that, I've had to make choices of like what am I going to to do now? Am I going to surrender to defeat or am I going to figure out how to rise up against myself and my inner demons and figure shit out? You know? Um so I've been I've been really blessed to have sort of a second chance, if you will. I moving to Milwaukee was such a random situation. I when we moved to the water. Where are you?

Netanya 5:35

I'm gonna pause you for a second. Where are you actually from?

Haven 5:38

I'm from Steamboat. Originally, yeah. So I was born in Denver. Yeah, I was born in Denver. Um, and then when I was after first grade, like be yeah, at the very ending of the first grade school year, my parents moved to Steamboat. So um, I think part of that too, having both of their sets of parents in Denver, them being teenagers, getting so much advice, quote unquote, from all the sides. They were like, we're building our own life, we're gonna build our own family, and we're gonna do it here and we're gonna build it the way we want it to look. And so I've definitely taken that model from them, you know, like, okay, I'm gonna separate myself from everything I know and figure it out. But yeah, we moved to Wisconsin and I remember being like, where is Wisconsin? I don't even know where we are right now. This is wild. But I feel like I've had an opportunity to really step back and rebuild. And not everybody gets that opportunity, but that this has been everything I've built has been because I chose to be resilient and not comply with the easy way out, the easy road.

Netanya 7:03

Well, yeah, and I want to go backwards for a little bit just because you know, I know you've been through some hard things at other points in your life earlier. And like you said, some of that you made choices that put yourself in with people that were not necessarily great for you. Totally, yeah.

Haven 7:21

I think that I um I I've had always like this profound curiosity. And I see the way that you're curious and inquisitive and productively so, where for me, I'm like, I want to know what that's like. And you tell me that's hot and not to touch it, but I don't, I'm gonna need to figure that out, you know. So because of this curiosity that I've had my whole life, I find myself being like, oh, you say don't do that? Okay, well, I'll be the judge of that. And I I sort of like I didn't being from young parents, I didn't have a sibling until much later in life. Um, and there, it's not like their friends were having kids, really. So I was constantly around older people, and I just was constantly craving interaction and attention in whatever way that looked. So I'm I was running around trying to find, you know, where what's going on? You know, and when I got a little bit older, that became, well, I'm curious about what those people are doing. And grown-ups seem to always be having fun. What are grown-ups doing? They're getting, they're smoking weed and drinking, they're whatever, you know. Like I I was like, well, I can do that. And I I put myself in positions where it's like, well, maybe I shouldn't have done that, but here we are. So what now? You know, there's no going back on it.

Netanya 9:01

Well, and how did you, when you were in that, you know, in the heat of that, right? When you were really having a hard time and not sure what you were gonna do, you knew you had gotten yourself there. At what point were you able to like p pivot

Divine Intervention and Moments of Clarity

Netanya 9:15

and move forward into a new direction?

Haven 9:19

I've had to pivot in multiple occasions. Um not to get like to woo-woo about things. All of that's welcome here. I did pull cards before we started to interview. I think that there is for me multiple times in my life that I've had divine intervention. Where there have been unexplained moments of guiding me or pushing me or forcing me in a direction that have saved my life. A huge one being, you know, I when you had moved to Steamboat, I was living in Hawaii at that time. And I had moved out there and was like, I'm never going back. Bye mountains, by snow, you know, had this fairy tale in my head of what my life was going to be, and abruptly came to a realization of like all that glitters is not gold. And also that like I just was not making good decisions. I was so excited to be away from everything that I knew that I became really vulnerable to putting myself in situations that I had no business being in. And the biggest point in my life was that um, you know, I found myself divorced my husband and then with somebody in a relationship that was extraordinarily toxic and abusive in many ways, and just couldn't, I was like in this wash cycle of like, I know I shouldn't be here. This isn't comfortable, but I'm so ashamed to admit defeat because I wanted to be on this island living this tropical life, you know. And the universe sort of provided me a moment of clarity of like right now is your time to go. And I really didn't hesitate on that. I I I just had that feeling in my heart that if I don't go now, I'm probably not going to be alive for much longer. So that was the first moment of like, all right, I have to, I have to stand up for myself right now, and I'm gonna have to do this. And nobody's holding my hand, and it's really scary. Um, and then coming back into Steamboat and having to like encounter all these people being like, why would you move back? Why would you leave Hawaii? Why would you and it just was insult to injury, right? And initially my response was to be defensive and to isolate and to drink and drink and drink and never stop. Um and that is not sustainable for many reasons. Um but you know, my I ended up in the hospital a couple of times. And like the first time wasn't enough. The doctors are like, oh, you can't do this. And I'm like, do you need a pancreas? Like, oh, you have to have a pancreas. Got it. Like, okay, this is a big deal. And that's when I was really faced with, okay, well, now it's literally like you either find a way to change or you die. And I'm grateful to have been in Steamboat, even though I was embarrassed. I had a huge support

Dismantling the Myth of the "Boring" Sober Life

Haven 13:13

system. I just hadn't realized because I wasn't willing to to lean on anybody. And once I was vulnerable in a good way, in a way where I was able to be receptive to advice and guidance, then I was able to be more resilient on the other end of it, of like, okay, there is something else. You know, like I don't have to be, I don't have to be the alcoholic that is in and out of the hospital that, you know, is emotionally unstable. And I also don't have to be the bitter person smoking cigarettes in the church basement and hating my life because I can't have vodka anymore, you know, which I was like in my brain. Those were the only two options.

Netanya 14:08

Yes, I agree. I had a similar experience. And I'm gonna go back for a second because have you ever seen Frozen 2? So my metaphors are terrible, and I'm gonna use this anyway, even though you haven't seen it. There's a part where um Elsa is like trying to run into the ocean, and there's this massive storm in the ocean. And so she like gets like all ready to go and just runs up the thing and like kind of slides through the ice and she eats it and like gets taken up by the and ends up back on the beach again. And you can see her face and she's determined, she's like, I'm gonna go again. She does it and she does it a couple of times, and it's what it reminds me of what you're saying, like, I'm gonna do it again, we're gonna do it again. That didn't work. You know, like I'm gonna keep that's how you feel very much just as a human, in terms of like when I talk about determination and I'm going to figure this out, feels very much like a mantra that I would attach to you if I was giving out if I was giving out mantras to people. Thank you. Um but we have that in common, although mine was a little bit mine's a little bit disjointed because I had like two parts to my big fall apart. But the first part was I I was not yet divorced, and my ex-husband was in the hospital for alcohol-related issues for the ninth time. And so um, I don't need to get into all of that, but it was just at that point it had happened so many, so many different times in my life, had gone downhill so far, and he had gone in, a bunch of stuff happened. I was alone at home, and I had a moment of clarity similar to what you're talking about, and I knew like you have to go now. You have to go now, or this is this is not gonna end well. And I can't explain that tangibly other than being very clear that like this is it. This is the one chat you get because if he comes home from the hospital, you're never gonna leave.

Haven 16:08

Right.

Netanya 16:08

And so it was in that in that moment that I made some choices and phone calls and you know, did the thing I needed to do. But it was I love that you say that it was a moment of clarity because I don't know how else to explain it. Like, you know, the heavens didn't open, but it was just very crystal clear.

Haven 16:27

Yeah. Well, in something in my life, um, I was fortunate when I was younger to have an opportunity to spend time and do studies with a really incredible shaman. And something he always used to say to me was like the universe will always guide you. And it's always gonna like lead hints or like a trail of breadcrumbs, if you will. But the more that you're off track, the louder it's gonna yell at you to change what you're doing. And I I unfortunately uh like to do things the hard way. Yeah. So I used to put myself in positions that were uncomfortable, knowing they weren't right, doing it anyways, having a negative outcome to experiences that I knew weren't gonna benefit me in any sort of way. And then wondering, well, let's do that again, you know, and coming to these crossroads in my life of like, hey, all the lights and sirens are going. It's time to to change things. Like what you're the the direction you're taking. Yeah.

Netanya 17:51

Yeah. Like, are you gonna listen? Yeah. Um, no, and I have the like my mom when I was young used to say that you have to learn everything the hard way. And like I don't think she meant anything mean by it or anything. It was just a sort of a fact. And I can remember thinking, again, when I got into recovery, like I have tried 780 ways to make this work, and it has not worked. What if I didn't have to learn the hard way?

Haven 18:18

Yeah, I mean, even still, I I came into the rooms of recovery the first day of February in I think 2022, and I still was resistant to it. I couldn't quite figure it out. And I I laughed when people are like, keep coming back, keep coming back. But it's true because I just kept coming back, right? And I was in no way in recovery. Um, had I known I needed to get a white key tag, I I would have an entire drawer full of them. For the first three months that I was in the rooms, I was like not, I couldn't get comfortable. And I remember you saying to me, it's way harder to be 99% sober. And I was like, ding. And that was what it

ADHD, Autonomy, and Creating Your Own Path

Haven 19:14

took. And I was like, yeah, Haven, why are you still doing this the hard way? Like, just let go. Let go and see what happens. But you saying that to me was like, oh, and I'm sure it had been said to me a million different ways, but I was not receptive to it until that moment when you were like, yeah, one foot in and one foot out is like really a way harder way to go, girl. And I was like, yeah. Um and learning the hard way, you know, I think also part of it is like I have ADHD diagnosed from the time I was a small child, like I going through all the testing. When I was in kindergarten and teachers being like, I don't know what's wrong with her. She's broken, you know? And me being like, I just don't learn like other people. I don't articulate the way other people do, especially as a child. Like I couldn't articulate my emotions in that same way. So like sitting down and concentrating or reading instructions, that doesn't work. I'm gonna be in there. I'm gonna take everything apart. I'm gonna mess with all, you know, like that's just the way that I function as a human. So naturally, yeah, it's a little bit harder for me because I'm going against a green. Now I think societally we're a lot more aware of these different approaches to teaching children things, but I I've carried that into my adulthood of like, what's the hardest way? That's the way I'm guaranteed gonna take because I just don't know any other way. Yeah.

Netanya 21:03

Well, so at what point though, do you still do that? Like in most things? Yeah.

Haven 21:11

Well, not intentionally. Um, I think that the clarity that recovery has provided me has just naturally made things a lot less difficult. That is such a gift. So I think that there are still times when I'm like, oh, I just took nine hours to do something like so much more difficult to get to the same endpoint as Tommy walks into a room and does it in 30 seconds. And I'm like, oh yeah, my brain didn't think to do that, you know. But giving myself grace in that too. I used to get so upset when I wasn't doing things the way that other people were doing it.

Netanya 22:06

Yeah.

Haven 22:07

And understanding and being realistic about how I learn, how I am as a human. We were talking briefly just even about work. You know, I mentioned a little bit like I have very I'm I need autonomy. I can't be micromanaged. And being honest with myself and my employer, you know, right away, it has created a space for this in my like I've created space for what I need where I never had that before. I was constantly trying to figure out how to squeeze myself into these situations or these places that weren't quite right. And now I understand like how to create what I need to thrive.

Netanya 22:57

How do you get to the place or how did you get to the place where you could tell the truth about that? Like a lot of people, especially with an employer. And I've done this for years in the past, where you sort of mold yourself to who you think they want you to be so that you sit in the right seat, but then all that does is create a lot of problems. So I'm curious about how you did that or how you felt comfortable doing that.

Haven 23:21

I so in my situation, well, okay. I think that first things first, being in a position where I'm not working a desk job at a computer, I know that would never work for me. So I don't even try to apply myself in a situation where that is the standard. Because if I walked in and was like, oh, I would like this desk job, but I don't work well at a desk. So what I'm gonna need is, you know, like that's not that's not like what I'm talking about. But, you know, saying, hey, I have this skill set and I would love to work and create and build something. What I'm going to need is the space and the opportunity to figure it out. And then I'll present you with whatever it's gonna look like. And I've been fortunate enough to be like, yeah, sure, go. You know? Um, but I'm realistic about it. I I try not to put myself in a position where I'm like, okay, I'm I'm the square block trying to fit in a round hole. Well, yeah.

Netanya 24:34

So first up, you'd have to know, A, you have to know yourself, right? You have to know what you are, how you work, how you function, what works well for you and what doesn't. And then B, the situation, whatever box we'll call it a box, whatever, you know, the structure of a thing that you want to engage with, what is the best environment for you.

Haven 24:55

Totally. Well, and that's boundaries. And that's like all learning that has been through the program of recovery, really. Like through recognizing what are my boundaries and only making time for things that fulfill me in a way that are beneficial. You know, I'm not going to put myself in a situation where I'm uncomfortable because I did that. I did that for 30 years and it didn't get me anywhere productive. The most beautiful, productive, fulfilling part of my life has been the past three and a half years that I have been in recovery actively practicing boundaries and honesty, and being realistic with what are my shortcomings? You know, I'm not I know that I don't have patience for people in a way that I used to. So I'm not gonna be a great server anymore. You know, and also being realistic that I have an I have an alcohol addiction. I cannot be putting myself in a position where I'm serving people alcohol on top of being annoyed by somebody, putting those two things together is creating an opening for me to invite chaos back into my life. And I'm not gonna allow that, you know. So being like, okay, well, maybe I'm better suited in the kitchen. Yeah. By myself. I think that there is a lot to be said for the honesty of like, hey, I am in recovery and I am an alcoholic. And I didn't feel comfortable initially saying either of those things. But like people will give you a lot of like grace and respect those needs from my experience.

Netanya 27:15

How have you gotten better with saying that? Like I'm an alcoholic, I'm in recovery. Everyone's has a different experience. A lot of people don't love it. I'm just curious what things like for you.

Haven 27:26

Well, I was super ashamed initially to uh I was just ashamed in general. I had so much shame behind my addiction. I wasn't gonna try to advertise that I was trying to do anything about it. That would be crazy. I happen to be blessed with a partner who

Vulnerability vs. Anonymity in Recovery

Haven 27:54

will gladly tell the world. And so I found like Tommy will just go and be like, oh yeah, we're like in the rooms and blah blah blah. And I'm like, Tommy, you're telling everybody? He's like, why wouldn't I? I was like, oh, that's a question, you know, like why wouldn't I? Okay, you're right. Why wouldn't I? And I have found that by being honest but not proselytizing, yeah, the 12-step programs, but I've created a space for other people that are feeling vulnerable to be like, oh, I actually like have questions or I have concerns or I need advice or I need resources. And that opening would have never been provided had I been anonymous, quote unquote. Yeah. You know, and I think that it's good for an addict like me to make sure that I'm being clear about it because I am in a point in my life where things are very comfortable. I have been able to rebuild and I have the relationship and the job and the house and the cars and the life is like in such a way that it would be easy for me to not say it anymore. And what that would do again would be providing myself an opening to invite chaos back in. Because the moment I stop remembering that no, no, you aren't actively like in peril. However, if you invite this back into your life, you will be. So saying, yeah, you know, we don't drink, we don't party, but we will gladly come hang out. You know, that keeps me honest. Because if I go out with people and don't tell them why I'm not drinking, and think I can get tricky or whatever, if I go out with somebody and I have a drink in my hand, guaranteed they're gonna say, What the hell are you doing? Yeah. You know, like it keeps me honest. It keeps me on track.

Netanya 30:16

Yeah, I love the way that you said that about I'm not in peril, but it's still like I will be if I go back in that route. And I think because I was thinking while you were talking about where I changed, about when because I didn't like the word, um, I didn't like the word addict. Recovery, I didn't mind as much, but addict felt like I had this stamp that was negative, and I just really didn't like it. But so uh in the beginning, I really struggled with that when I was doing step work and other things. Um, like languaging was difficult for me in some spaces. And I think somewhere in there, and I I I don't know when, but somewhere just in doing all of this, I started to change the way that I saw not only myself, but people in recovery in general, to the point where now, without flinching, I just see recovery as a superpower. And I don't know how I got there necessarily. I think just doing the work, being surrounded by people and being, I am so impressed on a regular basis, listening to people share things that are vulnerable, that they're in right now and just sitting in and don't have answers to. But I'm gonna talk about it. I'm gonna name it, I'm gonna work through it, I'm gonna, you know, take accountability for it. I'm so impressed. And after a lifetime of not being around people that do that, it's it's so empowering to me and it gives me permission to keep going. And it just somewhere in there that changed. Where now I tell people everybody knows I'm in recovery, every job I've ever had since then, you know, and I'm very open about it. I talk about it in most places without flinching. Like it's like, it's like saying your name, you know. Um, and I don't like necessarily announce it in every room I walk in, but if it comes up or if someone asks me if I want to drink, like sometimes I'll just say no. But if someone asks me or like probes a little bit into it, I'm like, oh yeah, you know, I'm in recovery. It's not a thing I do anymore. And then it's so interesting too how many times I've been surprised by the people's response or interest or curiosity, or they'll tell me a story about someone that they know, or you know, my sister has a really hard time with this. You know, and it sort of like opens a door just by just by saying that, it sort of opens up this space that I didn't know was possible.

Haven 32:41

I couldn't agree more. I think that the language can be harsh and sometimes um feel stigmatizing. However, I recognize the importance of maintaining the traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous or Narcotics Anonymous because like venturing, veering off in too many different directions, trying to manipulate the programs, you know, is not what it's about. And understanding that like if I'm in the rooms, I'm going to be mindful of the language that is expected to be used in the terminology, because that is what keeps everybody on an even playing field. You know, that's what keeps us all balanced. There's varying degrees of things, but like the moment I start trying to make myself other than, I know I'm in trouble. That's what prevented me from getting the help I needed a lot sooner because I was other than. And I mean, even in other ways of my life, that need to be other than has made me an outcast voluntarily throughout multiple times of my life because I had a point to prove. So I'm gonna go, I'm gonna be other than. I'm not one of them. I am this person, you know, and like especially, especially at this point in my life, understanding that, yeah, I belong here as much as the person that is one day out of detox, you know, because at the end of the day, it might be different quantities, different substances, different circumstances. The result is gonna be the same. Right. Which we all joke, jails, institutions are death, but literally like I'm under no illusion that I had to take it off the table, as you told me. Take it off the table, Haven. And I did. And the superpower comes in the vulnerability that I I've not always like I to for lack of a better term, prickly person. I don't mean to be a prickly person. I'm just like a fiery person in general. And sometimes it makes me feel a little unapproachable. So like having the vulnerability of, yeah, I am in recovery, it creates space for people to like approach me a little more easily, I think. Um I wish that honestly, like I wish that the 12 steps were just like part of a curriculum that we were taught at like 20 something. Yeah. Like just in society. Yeah. Because the the the the benefits um I've had in my life from working the 12 steps has been incredible. And it's applicable to everything. I have it's it I it's laughable to me that like I'm the like quote unquote like counselor of the of the office because people come back and like will present me with these conflicts that they're having. And you know, I will give them advice or like a solution, and they're like, wow, how did you think of that? And I'm like, honestly, the 12 steps, you know, like wow.

Netanya 36:29

Well, and I've done, I mean, I've done the 12 steps on a relationship. I've done like you can apply them to like other areas as well, which is fascinating. Um, but what you said hits a nail on the head for me of why I created the podcast in the first place, which is I was mad that like, why didn't we talk about any of this? Of all the things you can teach us, we all spend, you know, how many years in the school system? And why is this not part of that? And whether it's, and I'll go bigger, like whether it's the 12 steps themselves or things I've learned in therapy, right? Self-help books that I've had to go pay for and read and spend time that I chose to do voluntarily. Um, you know, service work or mission trips, whatever, whatever thing it is that you do, all these healing modalities that are really tools that just help you not only handle the because like I always tell people being in recovery and getting sober didn't change my life. It didn't save my life, it didn't change my life. The act of not using didn't do that for me. But what it did is gave me the clarity to acknowledge that I'm a mess and to go actively take steps and learn things and practice tools and put things into place that did change my life. And all of that, why did I have to, again, why did I have to learn that the hard way? Why could we not have had better tools to talk about things that have been hard when I was younger? Yeah, that would have been great.

Haven 38:05

I think I think that there's a noticeable shift in the way that um these ailments are viewed now. You know, whether it's any type of mental health or emotional imbalance or, you know, substance reliance issues, like now it's becoming more approachable. And I think that that's one of the things I had taken issue with initially was because, you know, A was created at a time that was not the same as now. Yes. And so some of the the way that things are worded aren't relatable to me. And that gives me an opportunity to reject it. Right. So I think it's important to like recognize that yeah, things are changing a little bit in the community of recovery, if you will. But now is the first time that people are making it cool. You know, I feel like our generation of people right now, with all of these like at concerts, shows in the past couple of years, you'll find like the the sobriety booths or whatever people there that are just like, hey, if you need support, we're proud of you for being here and not drinking or doing drugs. Like you can hang with us. Yeah. You know, like what you guys used to do at the free concert series in Steamboat, like things like that, making it um okay to be not indulging in mood and mind altering substances, but still be having a good time. Like there is um there is a space for that. And I think it's just really. Recently being like integrated into a common understanding. Right? Like, yeah.

Netanya 40:11

No, please. I was in the um I volunteered. I know the person's a friend of mine that that runs the sober section for like New Year's Eve in Nashville, like the big New Year's Eve city party and Fourth of July, same thing. And so I volunteer with him occasionally to help run things because it's what I it's what it's one of the ways I like to be of service. And so we did, like I helped him set up for Fourth of July. And there's like a section on the map. It's stamped out that like this is the sober section. And you know, I think even in the beginning it was sort of like you're pushed off into the corner of, you know, like it's this tiny section, whatever. And and we were in like the best seats, like we had the best spots. I love that. And it's just not, I think it's growing, and not only as like people in recovery, but I I've just watched more people where it's more of a lifestyle choice for different reasons than ever would have been a thing when I was growing up. Like never was that a thing or a conversation.

Haven 41:16

Totally. Totally. I um I am so appreciative of it because one of my biggest fears and things that made me most reluctant was like, I thought it was over. Like life is over, and we aren't having fun anymore. Yeah. And so

"We Want What You’re On": Rediscovering Joy

Haven 41:40

just get used to it. Yes, you know, and um coming out the other side, it took me a moment to re-establish my relationship with social interaction for sure. I definitely had to rebalance and recalibrate, but understanding how much fun I can still have. I'm having more fun than I ever had. And I remember all of it. Yeah. You know, I spend way less money and I remember the whole night. It's like a win-win. But I it's it's even funny. Tommy and I decided to go to well, and out here there's like actual nightlife and stuff, which wasn't, you know, but we went to a club to see an DJ from the UK that we used to listen to years and years and years ago. We were the oldest people there for sure. And we were just having the best time. And I remember the this young couple turning to us and being like, Oh my god, we want what you guys are on. And we were like, Oh yeah, you can. You too can have this. Like, um, but it it was just that, like something about that just was so sweet. Like, I was like, Yeah, all this time I thought I needed these things to like have a good time, but like really, I just needed to have better um company, like the company I keep. I needed to have better company and I needed to have um a better kindness and better self-esteem. And those are the two things I really needed to have a good time. I just didn't know what it was. So I was trying to create all these like magic potions.

Netanya 43:26

Yeah. No, I also I heavily, heavily associated fun and using. That that was that was where the source of it was for me. Um, I always had to have something with me that made it fun. It's like you could have a Fourth of July parade and candy and a pr, you know, all of the things and fireworks, and it wasn't fun if you weren't drinking. That was that was like the thing that made it better. And so I thought my I same thing, I thought my life was over. I was like, this is gonna suck. But I was I had pushed myself so far that I was like, I don't, I don't really want to play this game anymore, you know. But the very first time I had, I was in the hospital for the second time, and I had a flyer in my like discharge papers, and it had um a sober event on the flyer. And I went back to where I was living at the time and it was on the floor, and I just like threw all my stuff on the floor and it stayed there for three weeks. I cleaned up everything else, but that flyer, I just kept stepping over and like I wouldn't pick it up and I wouldn't do anything about it. And the event date was approaching, and I finally I don't know, something in me was like, What like you might as well? What so what? So you don't like people, so you don't, you know, you don't want to do the thing, just go try it because you don't know, and you already know what all the other ways look like. So what what do you have to lose? And if it sucks, leave, you know? Right. And so I did, and I went, and the first person I met was Chris Ray, who was also the first episode of this podcast. And um, but we I don't know if I've told this story on here or not, but I'm gonna tell it again anyway, even if I have. We started talking, and I'm super like there's like a couple people there. I am not a social butterfly at all. I can be very social when I know people, when I'm comfortable, absolutely, but like I'm not the person to walk in a room of strangers and just go talk to everybody. And so he was was sitting by me and chatting, and um I said something, and he looked at me and he goes, That's what she said, and just walks off. And I laughed out loud, and somehow him making a joke, I was just like, Oh, you're in the right place. Like, this is not some stiff room full of people who are quiet and read books and talk about Jesus all day, every day. And that's no offense to religion or anything, because I have all of that too. But I just really thought that this was gonna be a stiff way of life that sucked and that all the fun was gone. And I couldn't have been more wrong. And one of my favorite memories of you was when we were roller skating for pride. Yeah, we were at Pride, and they had this like roller rink that they put up in the middle of downtown, and it was night, and all these neon lights are up, and everybody's there, and we were just having so much fun, and all of us are not on anything, and I'm just totally so hard, and also couldn't roller skate and just ate it like seven times.

Haven 46:35

I was like, how hard could it be? There's four wheels on these things, you know? And Tommy's like, it's okay. I never roller skated before either. And I'm like, Bambi, getting legs for my first day of my life, like first day on my new legs.

The Exit Strategy: A Sobriety Superpower

Haven 46:52

And then next thing I know, I turn around, Tommy's like skating backwards. I was like, Where did this, who had this guy in here? And I think, you know, there was something you said that I wanted to touch on too, because I think it's very important, um, is the if it sucks then leave part, because I always, no matter what, have an exit strategy. Yes. And that is what is like if there is one piece of advice I had for anybody at all in recovery, or especially if you're new to recovery, is have an exit strategy. You can leave. And so I never like I always know how I'm gonna get home, or I always just know. And especially if you have a friend that you're going with making a pact of like, if one of us gets uncomfortable, just say the word and it's time. Like, you don't even have to explain anything. And I think that is that is very important, and understanding this element of FOMO and fear of missing out on the party or whatever. I had such a profound experience and understanding, like, yeah, I missed that concert, or I didn't go out to whatever. And guess what? Like the people around me may have spoken about it for like a second, and then the world just kept turning. And I was like, oh my God. I didn't miss out on a huge thing, you know? So that's been that's been um very instrumental. I think that circling back to the resil resilience of it all and overcoming something I love you say, like building the life that you recover for, right? Like what do I want it to look like? Because the first thing that you have to change is just everything, right? And that's like very daunting. And I laugh at it because it's like, oh sure, I'll just change everything. And in one way or another you do, but like the beauty of that is like, hey, like out with the old and in with the new, what do I want to what do I want this to look like? Because and it can constantly evolve. Nothing is my life is very fluid now. I don't have a lot of rigidity because I change my mind all the time, and that's okay, right? But understanding, oh, I have the space and ability to change anything at any given moment, and I have a 100% success rate of figuring it out. Like that blows my mind, you know, like no matter what has happened to me thus far in my life, I have a 100% success rate of figuring it out. And I'm not saying that like me on my own, like I'm independent. Like I've had a lot of help from a lot of beautiful, caring people, and I'm very blessed. But I think it's important to remember like we're gonna make it through whatever this looks like. As long as we want to. That's all you have to. That's all I had to have was the desire to make it out of it. So my ADD brain is like bouncing around. I hope that like I hope not.

Netanya 50:37

No, it was great. And I love that you brought it back around to resiliency full circle with where we started. I will say though, I just I want to agree with you on I give myself a lot of permission to leave. I also always have an exit strategy. And it's not like it doesn't come from a place of, oh my God, this might be awful. How am I gonna get out? It's just like I will often drive myself so that I can leave whenever I want. And that way, if someone doesn't want to go, I can still go and I'm not gonna, you know, make them leave. Or if someone else wants to leave, I'm like, no, I'm I'm actually having a good time, you know? And I've just kind of learned that to a point where that's just how I live now. I don't really think of it as next week strategy, it's just kind of how I function. But also, I wanted to say when you said that about concerts and missing out on things. There's also like I'm not, I don't love concerts. I'm not a concert goer. I wasn't before. And if, you know, it's not that I don't like them occasionally. Um free summer concerts at steamboat are awesome. But just like that wasn't that's not my favorite thing to do. But I know many people in recovery who really did love concerts and still go and choose people to go with and have a blast. And that's what I love about building the life you recovered for. What do you want this to look like? Recovery a la carte. Take what works for you. What do you want this to be? And I like to think of it as a canvas. What are the colors you want to choose that work for you so that you stay? And some people that requires more structure and rigidity, and others it means more freedom. But it's up to you. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Haven 52:13

And I think that um for me, like the the taking and borrowing all sorts of different I I'm that way about my spirituality, like I'm that way about all sorts of things in my life. So why would it be different for the recovery? Yeah, I do want to emphasize though, I want to make sure that I say, like, with that said, if I'm in a room a 12-step meeting, yeah, I make sure to be respectful of and adherent to the guidelines of that program because it can confuse people and and it's just that's not the spirit of it, you know. But I also am just on board with like happy, healthy humans, and whatever it takes for somebody to get there, I support them. If you're not hurting yourself or other people and you find that this works for you, I support that. Let's do that, you know. I know what works for me. Um, and I also have to be mindful of this. I have sponsees, right? Like I was very reluctant to go into sponsorship because of this I don't feel one size fits all type of deal. And like I don't want the way I don't want to be disingenuous to a program in of any program, um, because the rooms of recovery are sacred, you know, they really they save people's lives. And so I don't want to be harmful in any sort of way by trying to put my spin on anybody else's recovery because it's not that. But I will say, like, I I get a lot from my my Sponsey, she one of them, she has a spiritual coach and a recovery coach, and you know, like all of these, and she sort of blends all of that in, but then like at the end of the day, we work the the the 12 steps out of the stepworking guidebook, right? And like are respectful to that. And I I think that is really important, but also I think that's why it's important to vet who your sponsor is and who you're sponsoring. And that's a huge, I mean, that can that's a whole different conversation for another time for sure. But uh getting in where you fit in is what re what my life is now is like where do I fit in and where do I not fit in? And it's okay if I don't dive in this room with these people at this party, whatever it may be. I don't have to be there, and that's okay. You know, like I don't need conflict, and I don't for once in my life, I'm not trying to constantly go against the grain for the sake of going against the grain because I want to set myself apart from everybody else. Um, I'm happy to be a part of the family that is recovery because it is, it's like such a beautiful thing to be a part of. And I wouldn't have had such a smooth transition into living here in Milwaukee without

Finding Your Place in Recovery

Haven 55:55

that, because I didn't know anybody moving here. I'd never been here. I didn't know, but I knew that if I walked into uh a 12-step meeting, um, I automatically was gonna like feel safe and comfortable and I spoke that language. So again, that's why it's important to be mindful of that as well. Um but anyways, I'm like, I could chat with you about a million things.

Netanya 56:28

I have a lot of respect for that also. And like I do, I feel the same way. I try to be respectful, even if I were to, you know, I was in Bali a year or two ago, and there are temples there. And some of them to walk in a temple, you keep your your shoulders covered, right? That's not a thing that I do as a human on a regular basis, but when I'm in that space, you be respectful of the space that you're in, right? And it's also my choice to be in that space. If you don't want to follow anything, you don't have to be there. So I try to do the same when I am in the again, any kind of space that has a doctrine or a program or a system that's designed around it to show up availably, you know, for that space, or if you are, you know, chairing a meeting to use the right language. And um I also just the way I live life, invite people to ask questions and look at, you know, what parts of things may or may not feel good to you with anything. And that's where the the phrase take what resonates and leave the rest. It doesn't mean you ever slander people or make them wrong for the things that they're doing that you may not believe in. It's just like I might I might go this way and then I might go that way, and there's room for all of that too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Haven 57:42

So yeah, I think not needing to be right all the time. Yeah, uh, has been something I've grown into and understand more clearly now than I ever did in my life. Like I the way I feel isn't always right and might not be even true. Like, and my same for somebody else, you know. I uh there's there's beauty in that. Yeah.

Netanya 58:13

Well, I have one more question before you let you go. What is something that you hope that listeners give themselves permission to do after hearing this? Have fun.

Haven 58:28

Life is supposed to be fun. I spent so much time in peril making things harder than they needed to be. But like I can't think of the last time I cried. I laugh till I pee my pants almost every day. You know, like I think it's so important to not take it too seriously because it's at the end of the day, if you can't laugh and have fun at something, I don't want to be a part of it, you know? It's so much simpler to just have fun. Like that's that's all there is to it. I mean, safe fun.

Netanya 59:17

Thank you for the caveat. Let's be responsible adults.

Haven 59:25

Wait, clean, safe, fun. Okay. No, but you know what I mean? Like I took shit way too seriously. Yeah. I felt like everything was I a hill I needed to die on, and I was hanging, I was like gripping onto like my life. You know, I just was incapable of relaxing and learning just how to just have a little bit more fun with things. Because if something doesn't go my way, it usually is better. Yes.

Netanya 1:00:06

I think that so often, and it's hard to get like detached from outcomes and the way you think that things should be, but I just have so much evidence that when things go the way they're ever supposed to go, I it turns out better when I'm not trying to control it.

Haven 1:00:25

Yeah, that's a I could just chat with you forever. There's just so much. I just appreciate you and just love you and value you. Thank you.

Netanya 1:00:36

Same. And I'm so thankful you said yes and things like I'm so happy to see your face and gaff with you over, you know, multiple states apart. And um I'm just really glad that you were here and said yes to this. Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to NataniAlison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.