EP26: Brave in the Process | Finding Strength in the Messiness of Becoming — with Mark Martin

In this episode, I sit down with Mark Martin, who is currently nine months into a deep process of personal transformation and recovery. We dive into the raw, honest reality of what it looks like to dismantle an old life and the vulnerability of starting over at 36—reminding us that "on time" is wherever you happen to be right now. 

This isn’t just a conversation about sobriety; it’s a profound exploration of forgiveness, radical honesty, and the bravery it takes to be a beginner. 

Key takeaways from our conversation: 

• The Marble Jar of Trust:
  We talk about why trust isn't built through grand gestures—it’s the "marbles" we put in the jar every time we simply show up, stay accountable, and keep our word. 
• Childhood Toolboxes vs. Adult Problems:
  We discuss the realization that many of us try to fix adult problems with the "plastic saws and rubber hammers" of childhood survival mechanisms, and how to finally trade them in for tools that work. 
• The Power of Receiving Grace:
  Why refusing a compliment or a helping hand can accidentally "stiff-arm" the people who love us, and how learning to be a good receiver is a necessary act of healing for everyone involved. 

Whether you’re in the "messy middle" of your own transformation or just need a reminder that you haven't "missed the boat," Mark’s story is a powerful testament to the fact that it is never too late to change. 

Full show notes: netanyaallyson.com/episodes/26

Transcript

Exploring Faith and Personal Growth

Netanya 0:29

Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Mark Martin. Mark and I have a beautiful conversation diving into the bravery it takes to be a beginner. We talk about how trust is built in tiny moments over time, that many of us are adults still using mechanisms from our childhood to survive, and how learning to be a good receiver makes you a better giver. Let's dive in. Awesome. Well then we're just gonna keep going. So I'm gonna pick up where you left off and what we were talking about, faith.

Mark 1:23

Yeah, so you know, I've definitely come into the program with zero faith. I definitely don't and didn't believe in like this old man in the sky with a beard and you know, just I guess the Christian, the Christian concept of God. And I just finished my step three in Narcotics Anonymous, and it's all about like defining what God's will is, what is God's will and what yours is, and not acting on your own will. So anyway, I was struggling with going to see my dad, being sick and everything, and like I have to preface it by saying, so I always like with the stuff with my dad, like not ever being in my life, I always felt really abandoned and not good enough. And I know me and you have talked about that before. I just never felt as good as my brother and my sister because I never got that expression of love from him. So talking about like God's will and seeing things through these like God lenses, went ahead and went up there to like make my peace and uh do it, you know, more for me than it was like for him, because I didn't feel like he deserved the kind of grace that I was supposed to offer him. So there was this moment, and this all comes together. There was this moment where my brother is sitting there beside his bed, and he's like, he's crying and he's like, I'm gonna miss you so much. And I'm just sitting there just watching all this happen. And my dad like pats his hand and goes, It's gonna be okay. In that moment,

Family Dynamics, Acceptance and Responsibility

Mark 2:58

I realized this man has no idea how to express himself or to be vulnerable. Here he is, literally on his deathbed, and he can't tell the son who he's closest with that, hey, I'm always gonna be with you. I'm proud of you. Like the things I guess I would want to hear, and not to project and pretend you know my brother wanted to hear the same things I would want to hear, but I feel like there's some pretty common things you'd want to hear when your parents are dying. Um again, like I'm I'm gonna be with you or whatever. And in that moment, I realized that he has no idea how to express himself. So I really cannot be mad anymore that he never gave me the expression of love that I wanted. And the way I came up with this comparison, like you're not mad at a baby because it doesn't know how to walk, right?

Netanya 3:50

Yes.

Mark 3:51

So I can't be mad at this guy who never he was never shown how to show affection and doesn't know how to. And so in that moment, I was able to almost just immediately let go of that anger and just be like, this dude doesn't know how to do it. I can't be mad about it anymore. You know, did tell him I loved him, thought I was gonna see him the next day, but I didn't, I didn't get back to hospice in time. But a lot like that, I was really able to leave there with a sense of peace over that. And then I, you know, was able to be there for my brother and my sister, which I never would have been if I was out using. Um I mean my brother um have talked more in the last, you know, two weeks, week and a half, it's only been like a week and a half, than we have in the last five years, you know? Some good came of it. I feel like it was kind of like a catalyst for change.

Netanya 4:50

Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I'm curious in the moment where you're sitting there having the realization that like he doesn't know what he doesn't know, right? He didn't learn those things, he doesn't have context for it, the people that came before him didn't teach him that. And you have the that sort of realization, how do you feel now, like from that moment moving forward?

Mark 5:14

Free. Um I don't so for so long, any time I thought about my dad or even that side of the family, there was so much anger and resentment attached to it that I couldn't I couldn't even remember like the good times. Because there was good times with my brother and my sister and even my dad uh when I was younger, but the hate and the anger clouded that so much. And so now that I was able to like let that go, I feel like I can I I can not that I didn't remember them, but I can appreciate those good times more. Like it's not so tainted anymore. And yeah, I just I feel a lot more free. I don't when I think about it now, I I'm just not so angry.

Netanya 6:06

Yeah. And that can be a really big release. Yeah. You know, to not carry that weight anymore. How are you feeling about that relationship with them from this point on? Like, do you have hope there?

Mark 6:17

I I have a lot of hope. My sister's one of us, so she has definitely given me a lot more grace than my brother has. And and I I take responsibility for, you know, the reason why my brother, you know, why we fell out. You know, I was in and out, I wasn't reliable, I was chaotic. But now, uh, and I still have a lot of of work to do and a lot of um proving myself to both of them that I'm I'm you know, this is gonna stick this time. And um, but I have a lot of hope for for our relationship going forward. As long as I do what I'm supposed to do and keep doing the work and keep showing up, that's the biggest thing, is just showing up. Like I don't have to do anything. I just have to, if I say I'm gonna be somewhere, just be there. Or if I say I'm gonna call, call. Um, I think it's gonna like organically just continue to get better. I don't necessarily have to like make any like grand gestures or anything like that. I just have to show up.

Netanya 7:20

Yeah. There's a um, I don't remember which book it's in, but there's a book by Brene Brown where she talks about the the building of trust. And the way that she uses it is an example with her daughter. Um, and she uses the example of going to school. The kids in the classroom have a marble jar and like they put marbles in the jar when they do good things, and then they take marbles out when you know somebody messes up, whatever. And the goal is to get the marble jar to be really full. And that trust functions like a marble jar. You don't, it's not a big grand gesture. It's one marble at a time that you build by showing up, by being accountable, by keeping your word. That confidence comes from evidence. And the more evidence you have that you can show up, you can keep your word, that you're trustworthy. And the more evidence that they have that, like, oh, he's going to follow through on the thing he said he's gonna do, that compiles over time until you have that fuller jar of trust, right?

Mark 8:17

Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. Uh I like the Marvel tour and that beat a lot.

Netanya 8:23

I do too. Um, you brought up about you were talking about responsibility. What has that been like for you? That's a very big pillar in the beginning of anything in life, but just specifically in recovery. What has the seat of fully accepting responsibility for yourself been like for you?

Mark 8:42

Oh, it's uh it's been it's been hard. Um so for so long, um, I have really my entire adult life, and I'm 36 now, you know, what, um 18 years, you know, but 18? Yeah, 18

Managing Overwhelm and Building Structure

Mark 8:59

years. Um it is. Um I I shuffled responsibility so much. Like I was so used to uh just running from everything, and whether that was like running from feelings by pushing them down or numbing them, or legitimately like not showing up to places, or um yeah, legitimately running from things. Police. I've ran from police doing them like actually physically running. Supposed to be, you know, taking responsibility for a wreck that I had, but no, I'm gonna run. Um, but no, so uh these last so I'll have nine months this month. Um so these last, yeah, appreciate it. Uh these last nine months, it has been I'll just be honest, it's been overwhelming to start putting all these things in place, like getting back to work. I mean, it sounds so crazy, probably to the regular person, but like doctor's appointments, getting up and just doing your regular daily stuff, like brushing your teeth and taking a shower and stuff, just having this responsibility of routine and then like you know, obligations that you have. Like I uh, you know, have gotten really involved with the program, my home group and stuff. So I've put responsibilities on myself for that. And it has been um, it's just it's been so different. It's just like a complete 180 change, so it feels alien and it feels scary sometimes. And but the the feeling of being like overwhelmed, I got a really good suggestion from uh one of my predecessors in the program. I was telling him, I was like, man, I uh I feel like, you know, just with my bills, with work, with these just different things that like I am scheduled out to do, I feel, I feel like I'm so overwhelmed. I feel like I'm gonna miss something. I'm constantly worried that I'm gonna miss something. And he was like, Man, go go to Walmart or wherever and get you a big calendar that you can write on. He's like, stick it on your wall. And I was like, Well, I I I put everything in my phone, you know, but I still feel he's like, no, no, no, no. He's like, you need to be able to see it every day. And so that's what I did. And I wrote everything on it. I mean, down to like I broke it down to like a kindergarten schedule as far as like wake up at 7 a.m., uh, you know, shower, pray, um, write in your journal, whatever. Um, I broke it down to specific times where I could look at it. Now,

Navigating Identity and Self-Discovery

Mark 11:46

I'm I don't, I'm not perfect on it. It's like I don't get up at 7 a.m. every single morning and uh do everything that I'm supposed to do, but being able to see it and be like, okay, in three days I have my my cell phone payments due, or I'm chairing a meeting next week, or whatever the case is, that was so helpful to just be able to physically see it every day and to know, and it it took care of that worry to be like, I can't miss anything because it's it's right there, you know? So that was super helpful.

Netanya 12:15

What else, other than that and the calendar, what other things have helped you with overwhelm? And if you don't have anything else, that's okay too. So one of the reasons I'm gonna interject myself here, which is one of the reasons I I'm enjoying this so much and I'm so appreciative that you were a yes for doing this with me, is that the seat in which you currently sit at nine months is a little bit different than most of my guests on here. And what I love about it is that you are in the seat of being a lot more in the process, right? And still like being new to something is brave, always. Do I think it's brave? And whether that's being new to navigating a new relationship to being new to recovery, to, you know, a year and a half ago, I was new to Nashville and I'm the new kid and I don't know anything. And you just have to kind of fumble around and figure things out because you don't know, because you haven't been here before. And something I appreciate so much has been your honesty and vulnerability of like, I'm still learning and that's okay. And wanting to come on here and talk about that because it's real, because it's valid, and because that's part of the process. And even people who are, quote, farther along, which is a bullshit number made up of just time and linear things, but doesn't actually mean anything other than the amount of time since you've last used. You know, I've seen people that have many years that aren't solid or don't work a program or, you know, are rocky and and wobbly in their in their life because of those things. I've seen people that are newer that get their shit together pretty fast and have a pretty solid foundation. But the the willingness to keep going back to something, like this is a practice. It is always going to be a practice. I don't think that you ever arrive. You're not just like, cool, I'm good. I can be done with this now. It's a I live in recovery. I'm a human in recovery. I'm always gonna be. And I love that. Like I get to build my life around that and use that for good. But that state of, I'm new, I'm learning. Sometimes I get it right and wrong. These are tips and tricks and tools that help me along the way. That's what I'm so appreciative for you sitting in this with me and going through that.

Mark 14:23

Yeah, yeah, of course. So you asked what's something that I deal with, that feeling of over of being overwhelmed. Um Yeah.

Netanya 14:31

Like the feeling itself when it comes up. Yeah.

Mark 14:33

Yeah. The grounding skills that I've learned in in treatment and that I've also, uh, my sponsor is super big on meditation and stuff like that. Being able to quiet my mind through meditation, which my form of meditation may be totally different than somebody else's, but I'll put some some AirPods in and put on heavy metal, like just I love it. Yeah, just super heavy stuff. And for whatever reason, it quiets my mind. And I'm able to kind of in that like in that state of my mind being quiet, I'm able to kind of sort things and put them in their appropriate place. And that tends to kind of quell that feeling of being overwhelmed to be like, okay, let me just focus on what I have to do today, and you know, somehow organize that in my head. I I'm not totally sure how it works, but it works for me. So we kind of touched a little bit on faith, but I'm getting better about prayer, and I don't know if it is the the act of saying things out loud that is the therapeutic value, or if there is some mystical force working in my life, I I don't know yet. I'm I'm still still heavily searching for that or in of what it is. Right now, I think it is like the the voicing like, hey, I'm stressed out, like I I need some uh you know, grant me peace or whatever. And again, don't know what I'm talking to, but I think that expression of I don't know, almost to myself to be like, hey, you are stressed out, but it's gonna be okay because it's just gonna be okay. Like you're you're not you're not getting high, you're not in fear for your life or anything. So it just, I don't know, putting things in perspective like that, like I'm not I'm not, you know, my life isn't in danger, seems to like calm me down to, you know, because the fact is, like, the way that I was living my life, my it my life was in danger a a lot of times. So being able to just be like, hey, everything, everything is okay right now. You don't have to be so stressed out. Because I think we as addicts and alcoholics, when we're like actively out there, we get so used to that feeling of stress and being overwhelmed or fear or whatever. So just reminding yourself that it's okay. You're gonna be okay, no matter, you know, you can be a little stressed out, but you're gonna be okay somehow. That that helps. That kind of quells the feeling.

Netanya 17:16

Yeah. Oh, that makes perfect sense. I'm curious also, how has your, and this is a large question, so you take this wherever you want to go. How has your identity shifted over time? So you had the you before, the you after, the you in between. Sometimes we cannot have an identity and be uncertain about that. What has that process been like for you?

Mark 17:40

It's it's ongoing. I'm

The Importance of Self-Acceptance

Mark 17:42

still figuring it out. Um, you know, to be an active addiction for as long as I was, you know, in and out of treatment, in and out of jail, stuff like that, I thought for a long time that that was my identity. Like that's that I was a drug addict, I was a criminal, like that I just that's what I'm gonna have to settle with because that's what it is. And um, you know, I think like getting so tired. And when I when I did go to treatment this last time, I was like, okay, I do have to make a change. It felt like I kind of like wiped that part away and was left with nothing. I I expressed this so many times to my therapist, to the the my community, to be like, I'm 36 years old and I have no idea who I am. I don't know what I like, I don't know what my what my morals are because they were so skewed before. So I I didn't know. And I'm again I'm still figuring it out. But I do know that and I I I get this from other people's, I guess, experience with me and them telling me about myself pretty much, is that I'm starting to really, you know, believe that, you know, I'm not this this piece of shit, that I'm not. Um I also thought for a long time that, you know, I I couldn't change at my age. Like it was too late. Like there was I could it's not like I could, you know, it was just too late to like go back to school or anything like that. My life was just on this trajectory that I couldn't change. And through talking with other addicts and alcoholics that have gone through the the exact same thing, first of all, it made me not feel so alone because they're like, no, I felt the same way. You know, I got clean at 40 and didn't know who I was. And so I'm like, oh, okay, well, that's okay, then I'm I'm not alone in that. And then people telling me or hearing I hearing stories of like, no, I did go back to school in my 30s and now I'm I'm doing or whatever, gave me hope that there was a possibility of further growth. But I still um I'm still figuring it out, like what my identity is. I know I do know that recovery is a is a huge part and is going to continue to be a huge part going forward. I know that I want to use my experiences uh that I that I have over my over the years to help other people. I don't know what that looks like in terms of an identity, but I currently, you know, the the job that I'm doing right now um is admissions for a treatment center. So I know I'm helping people get into treatment and that's that's part of it of I guess my identity. You know, it's all right now it's so recovery focused, which isn't a bad thing because I again don't I didn't I didn't and don't know exactly what it is, what my identity totally is, but just going forward if I can like just use that like recovery spot as like a jumping off place to start figuring it out, um, I think I'm in a good spot. You know, because if it's like yeah if I'm using the the the principles like being selfless, um being honest, um, you know, I don't necessarily have to figure, I mean, I need to abide by them, but like I don't necessarily have to figure my morals out because they're kind of given to me to be honest, to not be selfish, to uh help others, to show unconditional love, you know. Uh I think the program, and I don't I don't know if it was meant to be this way. If they were like, hey, these people are gonna get clean and not have any identity, so let's lay these other, you know, these principles out and stuff to kind of give them an outline for it, you know? Yeah. Um, but that's that's kind of where I am with it. I mean, that's what I'm using. And I I'm finding things that I I like to do that I I wouldn't think that I would like. To do, you know, uh going to the gym. Uh my roommate today uh was going to do yoga and I knew I was doing this, so I couldn't go. I was like, dude, I want to go next week. I'm just it's trying new things to figure out what I like.

Netanya 22:14

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's very much the process of learning anything. It's a blank canvas, and it's like, here's all the colors you can pick from. Go for it, you know, and you kind of you start from nothing and build and see what you like and what you don't. And it's very much about contrast. I love contrast for everything in my life. But anytime you run into the the action of trying anything, right, you'll you'll either you'll learn something and you'll change. Right. Those are two truths of trying anything. You'll learn something and you'll change. And what you'll learn, you might learn that you like the thing or you don't like the thing. So then say you don't like the thing, cool. Then you pivot and you go towards something else that you do like. And you keep doing that. It's like splitting branches over and over again on a tree. And you just get more and more refined at like, cool, this is who I am from these decisions that I've made. And you get clear that, like, oh, cool, I'm not, I don't like these types of things. And then you can start to group them together. Great. I don't love, you know, this type of workout, but I really do love this type of workout. You get to keep trying that as you go. But I love what you said about um it never being too late to change. Cause I think that's a big misconception with anyone. I think it's a societal thing that like beats on us that we the way I grew up in my brain was very much like I was going to go to college and then get married and buy a house and live like that. Was it you're done. You did all the things. And so when I had to

Balancing Work and Recovery

Netanya 23:43

like rip all that apart and blow up my life, it was a bit, it's a bit of a mind fuck to be like, well, now what? Because everything I thought that I knew isn't true and I don't know who I am anymore either. And you sort of you sort of start to build that back together through that process of trying and and learning and yes and no. And like you said, using using experiences that you have that have been good for you as a foundation. And recovery itself, and you and I have talked about this, but I'm going to restate it again just because I think it's useful. Like recovery itself is going to keep changing. Who I was the first nine months or whatever, the first six months, the first three months, who you are in those seats and what you need at that time is different than who you are at two years, at five years, at 10 years, at 20 years. And I don't know what that every person, every variation of that is different too. Who one person is at five years might be different than another person. You are going to keep changing. The circumstances of your life are going to keep changing, right? I was talking to a guy in a meeting last night because he was, we were talking about this very specific thing. And he's got a child and a wife and all this different stuff that he didn't used to have. And it's like, well, you have to move with those things and allowing yourself to be cyclical, like the seasons change or the moon phases change, and riding with that wave instead of like this is the right way or the only way to be in recovery, and this is what I've always done. You might need five meetings a week at one point in time. And then your life might change, and maybe your job doesn't allow that anymore. So, how do you step back from those things and find it in other ways? It's like service. What is um, and you and I talked about this too, because you did bring up your job. Like when you work in recovery, your identity can be consumed by it because you are in recovery conversation eight hours a day, sometimes more. And then you are also have personal recovery outside of that. So then after work, you're going to meetings, you're trying to be in service, you're you're in some kind of sponsorship or something with someone else. And then on top of that, your friends are in recovery because they're people that you're not meeting in this room. So you go for casual coffee, you're still talking about recovery. And so I'm saying this from my own experience, and this is not everyone's experience, but the potential for burnout exists. And for me, I realized I had gotten too much, too far into that for too long, that I was at risk of resentment and anger, and um, my own recovery was at risk. And that's just my experience, that is not true for everyone. I know many people that work in recovery and have worked in recovery for a long time, that love it, that thrive in it. It was just the system that I was in. And now, now you're on a platform currently in this conversation that I built and created out of nothing because I wanted a different way to talk about recovery that works for my life. So whether it's that you continue to work for a treatment center or a completely different variation of something that you don't know yet from someone that you haven't met yet, but just allowing that to be and to recheck in with yourself occasionally to be like, is this working for me? And if not, what do I need to change so that it does? Right. For me, that's such an important question because I need to stay here. This is not an option. And I I made a choice to make it not an option for me. And so the next bigger question is cool, how do I get to create it and mold it and move it? And I now have fun with it. It's like, oh, that's so interesting. Well, that ran its course, so we're gonna go over here, you know, chaired this meeting for a year. Okay, well, I'm burnt out of that, so we're gonna set that down. But it's allowing yourself to flow through those things, and there's a level of intention required, right? You have to check on you. No one's gonna check on you. You check on you. Any thoughts about my long tangent there?

Mark 27:27

No, no, that no, it was it was great. And you're absolutely right, especially what you were talking about as far as like working in recovery, being in recovery. All my friends are in you, you're it's it's absolutely true. But what I have found, and I I've only been doing this for like a month now. So I and I I got this this advice suggestion from somebody who I really I really respect them in their recovery, and they also work in treatment, and they were like, you uh, and I'm kind of echoing what you said, but you you do have to keep it completely separate. And what I do now, like the way my schedule is, I work um four days a week in the admissions office, and I don't pressure myself too much with trying to get off work, go to a meeting, do all that, like all at once, you know. So I have three days off a week where I can focus on me and put put my phone put my work phone down and not and and just leave work at work and go to the meetings I want to go to, talk about what I want to talk about. Um it's been this has been the challenge for me with working in treatment. And I I'm I think I'm figuring it out, but it's been a challenge to separate the emotion from the job. I get these calls from people who are just in the thick of it, going through it, crying. You know, I the the moms are the hardest. The moms that call in for their kids, it's so hard. And especially when I can't, you know, if I can't get them into our facility because of a financial issue or whatever it may be, um I I struggle with it. Like I it it it affects me on a like visceral level where I

Empathy Fatigue and Emotional Boundaries

Mark 29:22

just like my whole day is fucked because this mom called and I can't help her son, you know. Talking about it, I've I've utilized my sponsor a lot in the last month. Just kind of I kind of have to have somebody tell me that you did what you could do, uh, and not to like totally flip this and bring it back to faith, but I I really am trying to get to the point, and I again getting there, where the same higher power, whatever it is, that got me to where I am today, I have to trust that it is taking care of these people as well. And if they want the help, they'll get it. Even if I can't be the one to offer it to them, that same higher power that helped me is going to help them, and that alleviates some of it to be like, it's you know, gonna be okay. But yeah, separating separating the emotion from the job has been a challenge. I can't talking about it is the biggest thing that's been helpful with my sponsor, with other people I work with, because we're all everybody that works there's in recovery. So getting advice from them to be like, yo, how did you do this in the first month you were here? You know, see, I I got guys in there that have been doing it for years and years. And it's like you just not to become callous in a bad way, but just you come in, you do the job, and you know, you do what you can do.

Netanya 30:50

Uh I'm writing myself a note to send you an episode. Um, it's actually the episode that I'm releasing this week. So it'll be episode 24 with Angela Melzer. And um the reason I had her on the podcast is because of what we're talking about right now. And because a different friend of mine here in Nashville in recovery, we got on the phone one day to talk about, he also works in recovery, to talk about um empathy fatigue, which is when you care, right? The the experience of caring and how do I not overgive? How do I keep boundaries? But I want to like that whole everything that you just said is the reason I had Angela on the podcast and the whole episode, we talk about that. And she is a like licensed clinical counselor and just gives it, just explains it, talks about it in such a good detail. So I'm just made myself a note to send you that after that.

Mark 31:42

Yeah, yeah. Please do.

Netanya 31:44

Yeah, because it's like I I know enough just from talking to her, but I'm not a licensed therapist. And she just has extensive knowledge on that kind of thing. But we talk about that specifically on how do you how do you not jump off the ship into someone else's life and drown with them, right? When you're trying to care. And so I don't, I won't go into that more, but I will send you that episode after it's left this week. How has your relationship been like in terms of loving yourself throughout this process? It's been messy, you're learning, it's it's a practice. What has it been like?

Mark 32:19

I like that you actually asked that question because I was just sitting here thinking about something that I wanted to talk about that I think is really important for people in early recovery. So, and people are gonna hear this so much in early recovery about it about acceptance. And I had to so I am super, super self-critical. I never think that I'm I always think I'm doing something wrong. Um, when I first got into the program and I was starting to work steps and stuff, I would constantly ask my sponsor, Am I writing enough? Am I am I doing, am I, I don't, I don't know if I'm doing this right. I don't know if I'm getting it. Um, I did the same thing in therapy, I do the same thing at work. So that's the suggestion that was given to me by my sponsor is he was like, wherever you are, you are. And just accepting that and not putting so much pressure on yourself to not only be something that you're not, but to be further along than you should be. He's like, dude, you know, eight, nine months in or whatever, he's like, you're you're exactly where you should be. You're questioning all these things. You you feel like you don't know what you're doing. He's like, Great, that's good. You're you're exactly where you should be. Which, you know, I again not looking for like an attaboy or like a pal, you know, to be like, no, you're doing great, Mark. You are you're fucking killing it at recovery. No, you are stressed out, you have no idea what you're doing. Good. You're good, you're exactly where you should be. Um, so acceptance has been huge to just be like, okay, I am and and really convincing myself and believing because I am doing the best that I can. I cannot do any more than the best I can do, and I I'm doing the best I can. And when I tell myself that, and and then also look at where I came from, looking like, you know, yeah, I may be thinking that I'm doing everything wrong right now, but if I compare it to 10 months ago before going into treatment, um I am like a brain surgeon.

Netanya 34:38

Like yes, you are.

Mark 34:41

I am you are it's just the the comparison is so different, and then also using the word comparison, I really had to stop comparing myself to other people that were further along in their recovery, or even people there there are people in even my home group and stuff that have you know four months and they seem so much more spiritually fit than I do, they seem so much more um understanding of the program, whatever. I cannot compare myself to other people because that will just get me in my head, it will um it'll just fuck me up. So not accepting where I'm at, not comparing myself to other people and believing that I'm doing the best that I can.

Netanya 35:36

Yeah. No, that's super vital, especially the comparison part. And that's for anything, not even just in this program. But like and a lot of times, I heard this once and I'm I don't know who to credit it to, but it wasn't I did not make this up. That like a lot of times we spend time comparing our insides to other people's outsides.

Mark 35:58

Yeah.

Netanya 35:59

Right? And like you don't know what they've been through or where they're at. It might look great and seem great when they share in a meeting or they're talking about something on a stage and they're really struggling with other things inside. We make assumptions and judgments all the time based on very little information. And even if you have all the facts and you know all the things, you're different than someone else, right? Your functionality, your traumas, your past, your wounds, your behaviors, how you listen, how you learn. You know, it's it's no different than in teaching. Like kids, students have different learning styles. Some are audible learners and they listen better by hearing, some are visual. Like comparing those things is like comparing apples and french fries. Like they're not the same thing. It's not even the same group, you know what I'm saying? It's not even the same group of food. And so it's just doing yourself a massive disservice, ever comparing yourself to anyone. And I don't care if they're your twin, they're not you. And your timing and your process is yours, it's valid, and you're allowed to take as much time as you need to do anything. And there's no race to the finish line. You're not better if you get there first. In fact, a lot of people have gotten there first because they bypassed a bunch of things and then had to go back and redig into the real work. And there's just whether it's even step work, whether it takes you a week to do a step or a year, that's yours. That's your journey. And that has a million different things involved in it. But staying in your own lane, whenever I catch myself in the like, I'm not feeling great about something, that is often a culprit, is what you just said. I'm making myself wrong. Yeah, go ahead.

Mark 37:40

Another thing um, you know, about you know, learning to like love yourself. I so when I first went into treatment and then started coming into the program, and um so I'll just give you one specific example. So when I was leaving treatment and got coined out, as they call it, they all pass around a coin, push intention into it, and like say some positive things or whatever. I sat around, you know, 14 guys are like telling me these these good things about me, and the whole time in my head, I'm like, you fucking liar. Like you, y'all are bullshit. And I had such a low opinion of myself, and and it's something I still I'm still working on. But it was told to me by some, because I I express this. I'm very I'm sure everybody's not like this, but I'm very good about I guess I'm very self-aware and I am able to be like, I I can I know I'm going through something, and I'm it's very easy for me to express it and to get like input on it. But uh, so I was telling, I don't remember, it wasn't my sponsor, it was just it was just somebody else in the program. I was telling them about this. I was like, it really makes me uncomfortable when people tell me like good things about myself. Like I do not accept it well, I don't believe it. And uh they're like, Well, you don't you don't have to believe it about yourself, but can you just believe that that's their experience with you? And I was like, Oh shit. Yeah, because I guess um, you know, to completely believe that their bullshitting would be just kind of spitting in their face and calling them a liar, you know? Yeah. And um they're like, So can you just believe that's their experience? It's kind of goes back to that that old cliche saying of we love you until you can learn to love yourself, and that's what it is, is like, okay, can I believe these people are having good experiences with me and they're they're telling me what their experience is? Yeah, I can get behind that. And that has helped. That has helped to be like, okay, well, if if these people are having these positive experiences with me, then slowly I can maybe start to believe that about myself. And I have. I have. When you know, you get told that you're, you know, you're funny, you know, for a while, you start kind of being like, well, I'm fucking funny, you know?

Netanya 39:59

Yeah. Well, and even as an example, this is I am a person that highly values my own time. I have really great boundaries at this point in my life, and I have no problem telling people no. And so even the fact that we've met, you know, we met a while back in a couple of different conversations in different places. You brought this up to me and I considered why do you want to be on here? We met for coffee and talked about things and went into the depth of things, and we're still here sitting here now. At any point along that process, I have no problem telling you no if I don't think this is a good fit for the audience, if I don't think it's healthy for you, if I don't, you know what I mean? If I don't find value in who you are, how you show up, and what you're giving, I would have just said no. And the fact that like evidence, but fine, even clocking things like that, as you may not believe that you're valuable, but I just went through that whole process and said yes to this at many different points to continue along with this because I find you valuable. Right.

Mark 40:58

I appreciate that. It makes me uncomfortable, but I appreciate that.

Netanya 41:01

I'm glad. But thank you for the honesty, right? That is that's part of this too, is that is uncomfortable until you learn to sit in that, in the truth of that. But trying to whatever I was getting at was reframing it, like you said, even if you don't think it evidence of other people that keep choosing to be in and around you and keep showing up because they believe in you exists. You don't have to like it or be comfortable with it, but it is true.

Mark 41:29

I was I was kind of making a joke, but I also, yeah, it is it getting compliments is extremely uncomfortable.

Netanya 41:35

Yeah.

Mark 41:36

And I don't even know, like I guess it it comes from not totally believing it yourself, but um, yeah, I don't know. That lack of confidence, maybe. I I don't know, but it's uh I've heard that from so many other uh people in recovery. They're just like, I do not take compliments well.

Netanya 41:54

I used to deflect a lot. Like I would, it's like you'd say, like, oh, your hair looks so great, and I'd be like, Oh, I didn't shower today. Like it's some negative thing, or somebody like, oh, you have a cute shirt, and I'd be like, it's on sale. I had to say something about the thing that downplayed the compliment, right? I either deflected it completely or downplayed the thing to take the stress,

The Challenge of Receiving Compliments

Netanya 42:15

like the energy of it off of me. And then I did some work in my early 20s around receiving and giving, and I realized how bad I was at being a receiver and that I put so much value in giving, giving, giving, giving, giving. I was exhausted and I didn't know how to receive. And so what I had realized from all that, like I don't, I don't, I can't even tell you what I did. I read books on it, just the concept of receiving and learned that every time I'm I'm in that space, I don't know how to receive, it actually makes me a worse giver because I don't know how to receive. So think of it this way like, you're gonna give me a present. Okay. So you went, we'll just make this up. You're really grateful for having spent time with me on here and you want to thank me. So you went out of your way to go buy me something at a coffee shop or just you like thought about it. What would Natanya like? Cool. I got the thing, you wrapped it, you bought paper, whatever, you wrote a little card and you went to go give it to me. Okay. And so if my response is, oh, like you shouldn't have, how does that feel to you? Like, thank you so much, but you shouldn't have.

Mark 43:22

Yeah. I I don't know the word behind it. Like I don't know the exact feeling, but yes, I I understand it totally what you're saying. It kind of makes you feel kind of icky to be like, oh, yeah.

Netanya 43:35

I sort of just stiff armed you, right? And so the opposite is now I'm gonna we're gonna do it again, right? You wrap the president, you put all the time into it, and you give it to me, and this is my response. Oh my God, thank you so much. I can't even believe you thought of me, and I'm just you thought of me to to go buy something for me and give it to me and wrap like thank you so much. Does that feel?

Mark 44:01

Yeah, way better.

Netanya 44:02

Like I received it. So me receiving impacts you, the giver.

Mark 44:08

So if I won't that's huge. That I never thought of it that way, but that is so true.

Netanya 44:14

So like every time I'm not good at receiving, I'm robbing someone else of the opportunity of getting to give me something.

Mark 44:23

Damn. Yeah, that's yeah, you're that's absolutely true. Wow. Yeah.

Netanya 44:32

Yeah, it's a bit of a mind fuck. But when I got in my head that, like, oh, that's awful and doesn't feel good at all. Can I get better at receiving? And so I practiced it. And I mean everything from at the again, at the time that I was doing this, my nephew was in high school. And I remember this particular practice because it was the day I was practicing it. I had to go bring in groceries in the car, and he happened to be where I was. And he was like, Do you need help? And I always would be like, No, I'm good. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, I would love some help. Like, I could have done it by myself. That's not the point. The point is he offered and wanted to help me and I let him help me. And then we chatted while we're out there getting, you know, like so I'm spending time with him and just all the other ways and exchanges of that's happening throughout the process of giving and receiving that me getting better at being a receiver is so much better, not only for me, but for the other people involved too. And now these days, I'm a pretty good receiver.

Mark 45:32

So where do you think that comes from to be because I'm the same way where I I love, I genuinely love giving gifts. I'm constantly, well, I wouldn't say constantly, but I am always the one to like hype my my friends up, you know, like oh, you're killing it at this or that, or you look great, or whatever it is. But yeah, I receiving it's just like it's like I would rather not, you know?

Netanya 45:58

Yeah.

Mark 45:58

Um I wonder where that comes from.

Netanya 46:00

I don't know for sure. There's probably several answers, but I think just what came up in my head, where do I think I learned it from, is you don't want to be selfish. At least what I went back, I wrote earlier too, that I'm gonna so I'm gonna I'm gonna brat this into something you said earlier. You're talking about morals and values, not being selfish. I think I learned that there is you want to be kind and generous and giving as a as a human and be a good person and include people. And somewhere in there that being selfish is bad. I also an old wound of mine is not wanting to take up space. I don't want to take up too much space, like I'm good, you like I'm good, you go, you know, put the attention on this person, this person needs more help than I do. Even things like um comparative suffering, which is I'm comparing my seat or pain or wound with someone else's, and usually mine would default to their problem is worse, their wound is worse. So give them the space, give them the time I'm good. And every time you do that, you're causing your own harm by not allowing yourself to take up space. But selfishness, so at least again, in my experience, and combine that with not having a lot of confidence, I didn't for a long time. So combine thinking that being selfish and taking up space is not a good thing with not

The Importance of Receiving and Giving

Netanya 47:16

having a lot of confidence, and that's a recipe for what we were just talking about, right? When you understand instead that I've had to get better at being selfish and break that association that it's bad. It is not bad to take care of myself.

Mark 47:33

No, you're right. And uh while you were just talking, I thought to like you use the the phrase taking up space. I think maybe mine comes from uh not wanting to be a burden. And like I was feeling like I was, and because I I slick was a burden to like my family and stuff for so long. So now and and even even at times in active addiction, I would what's the word, I would sacrifice not my well-being, but just like Kenya said about like your your nephew asking to help you move something. I'm such the person that if somebody was to ask me, I'd be like, Oh no, I got it. Like, I mean, I do that to this day. If somebody asked me, you know, do you want help? I just moved um room. So I'm I'm currently in sober living, and one of the guys moved out. So I moved to a bigger room. And one of my housemates was like, Hey, do you want help, you know, moving your stuff? And I was like, No, no, I I I got it. Um, I didn't even, I just it's so default to be like, no, I'm not gonna bother you with it. It's it's my stuff. But uh yeah, I guess I need to get better at receiving because that is that yeah, now I feel like I need to go to him and be like, hey, did I make you feel a certain type of way about not letting you like move?

Netanya 48:47

You know. I want to agree with what you said though about being a burden. As soon as you said it, I was like, yep, that's also true for me. And mine wasn't because I thought I was a burden. Mine was growing up, I watched adults around me have a really hard time for a lot of different reasons. And I knew that they were all, I could, I don't need to go through the stories of it, but they were struggling for different things. And I didn't want to add to this struggle. So how can I be more let me just blend in over here and be good and be quiet and we whatever. And again, was I perfect? No, but just sort of the mindset of I can see them dealing out loud in front of me with things that are hard and I don't want to add to it. And then you learn something that is a childhood mechanism, then lives in your body long past its expiration date. I am not a child anymore with parents around me, but you're still functioning from places of things that you learned when you were seven.

Mark 49:48

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I had a um, so uh one of my therapists um that I still talk to to this day, she's not my therapist anymore, but I still burden burden her with all my problems. Um she was so I worked my step one uh in ACA with her. Um she just kind of wanted to give me a taste of like what it was and and stuff like that. And she explained it so well. She was like, Mark, you are going through life. Um, you know, after going through, which I won't go into everything too, my childhood trauma and just stuff that I I dealt with. She's like, you developed this tool bag to deal with life, and it's full of like rubber hammers and plastic saws and kids' tools, and you're still carrying that tool bag around trying to deal with adult problems with that tool bag. And yeah, she's like, they they served you to a point, but now you have to put it down and you have to learn these these new tools and these new skills to deal with life, which again, like still learning those things. But it was such a great analogy to be like, oh man, I am going through life dealing with things the way a kid would. When I don't get my way, I throw a tantrum. You know? Yeah. That's that's the biggest, the biggest one that I can recognize at this point in time is like when I don't get my way, I throw a fit. And that is the way that a child deals with disappointment.

Netanya 51:16

Yeah.

Mark 51:17

So yeah, I agree completely.

Netanya 51:19

Yeah. I love that the visual of a child's toolbox, by the way. That was just great. Um, but I agree with you. I think my my other version, I like metaphors a lot. Metaphors and what is it, analogies for things. And one of the ones I always use is it's like computer programming. It's just an old program. You just have an old program that's still running back there, and you've updated all this other software, and that's still like that still has rent in your, you know, it's taking up space in your it's taking up space in your house. Yeah. And it's like, do you need that old program anymore? And how do you set that down and be like, cool, that's not who I am anymore. And that, you know, that's practice and a process that I made that sound really easy.

Mark 52:02

But yeah, it's it's it I love the analogy, but it it it is super hard. But that I think that's what not only the programs of AA and NA and all the other A's, but that's why I think yes, working a program is is very important, at least it is to me. But there are so many other tools you can utilize. Therapy, um which all kinds of different types of therapy, EMDR, brain spotting, like all these things to deal with the that old tool bag um and to develop these new tools. Um yeah.

Netanya 52:39

Yeah. Well, and not not taking care of yourself, right? We'll go back to receiving for just a second. Not letting yourself receive good things, not letting yourself take

Shitting the Nest: Leaving the Comfort Zone

Netanya 52:50

up space, not allowing like life to get better, and that's okay. Like that sort of old phrase, like waiting for the other shoe to drop. I lived in that for a long time. Like I'm just sort of gripping, waiting for something to get bad once things do start to get good. But all of that to say that like all of that not letting your life get better and you get better is a disservice to other people. Because you affect all of the people around you. So letting myself receive good things, live in good things makes me more abundant. It makes me more relaxed, safe, taken care of, solid in who I am. And guess what? That means I show up a fuck ton better for everybody else. Very true. Very true. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what else you got? Anything else on your list that you have that you want to chat about? I have other thoughts, but I want to know what you if there's anything we missed.

Mark 53:44

Hmm. So I've got just written down the letting go of expectations on myself, but I think that that went into acceptance. Um let me see. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Do you remember shitting the nest?

Netanya 53:59

Yes. I knew there was something you said and I couldn't remember what it was. I'm glad you brought it up. What is that and why were we talking about it? Oh, this is so great.

Mark 54:09

So, all right. One thing that I have struggled with um was, you know, and I I've heard this from other people in in early recovery, going back and like dealing with your family or going back to um your hometown, your childhood home, or whatever, and feeling super uncomfortable. Um, so when I first got out of treatment and went home for Thanksgiving a couple months ago, going home for Christmas, I love my mom to death. I just I would get this feeling of I and I couldn't put a finger on it. I would just feel very uncomfortable. And again, talking to my therapist, I would express this. I'd be like, I don't know what it is. Like, I it's she's not doing anything specifically that's bothering me, but I just and I can't, I couldn't put a finger on the feeling. And she was like, it's disgust. And I was like, oh my God, that is, that's the feeling. I'm disgusted. I was like, why am I disgusted with my mom and uh or like or her home or whatever? And she was like, it's not that you are disgusted by her in particular. And then she goes into this and she's like, Have you ever heard of shitting the nest? And I was like, No, absolutely, no, I have not. And she goes, There's this phenomenon in baby birds when they are getting ready to leave the nest, they legitimately will will trash the nest, they'll shit the nest. And that way, when they do end up fledging or whatever the word is, they leave the nest, it is undesirable for them to come back. So the way the way that I interpreted it for a human is that I've been shitting the nest for however long. I have I have made this this rel even this relationship with my mother in her home where I I used and and did all these things, um, I have made it undesirable for myself. And so now that I have separated from that and I'm I'm growing up, I'm and I know they won't, I'm using air quotes. I'm growing up, you know, as an adult, I'm creating this this new life that is completely separate from that. And now when I go back, it's it's undesirable to me. Um I've been told that it will, it gets, it gets better as you continue to build something of your own that is, you know, just solely yours. I could go into a lot of it, which I'm not super versed in it, but it has a lot to do for me with enmeshment and stuff like that, where I just that enmeshed relationship, my childhood home and stuff like that, it's just carries a lot of bad memories and stuff, a lot of shit. So uh it is, yeah, it's just undesirable to me, which I don't think it's a bad thing. I almost think it's like a a mechanism for change because if it was if it was desirable to go back, then I wouldn't grow. You know, I wouldn't have to face these challenges and these new things that I have to stepping out on my own, which by the way, it I totally detest talking about stepping out on my own at 36 years old, but let's go back to acceptance, that's where I'm at.

Netanya 57:31

Yeah.

Mark 57:31

Okay, you know, at at 36, I'm I'm just now trying to create a life of my own, and and that's okay.

Netanya 57:38

Yes, yes.

Mark 57:39

But yeah. Uh yeah, shitting the nest. It uh interesting.

Netanya 57:43

I forgot I was like, I know we talked about something. It is interesting, and I think to your point that it makes sense that that is a good thing because that's how you leave and that's how you grow. Literally, that's how you take flight, and you don't if you you're removing the desirability of staying safe and staying in the same place.

Mark 58:02

Exactly. You know, exactly.

Netanya 58:04

Yeah.

Mark 58:04

I just I definitely wanted to talk about it because I again talking with other addicts and alcoholics that have dealt with the same thing, like don't be so hard on yourself or think like I did, whereas like, what is wrong with me that I am feeling this way about my mom and my child at home? This is where I'm supposed to feel safe and comfortable. It's not always the case. And that's okay.

Netanya 58:25

That's a really good example. Yeah. And I just love how you shared about again, the the age that you are and what society says you should or shouldn't be at at this point is just not real or true. And that healing doesn't happen in a straight line, and you you're already on time. You're on time for what you're supposed to be doing, and it will change, you know, and whether that's I've seen people with great loss many years down the road later from where you and I are, and they have to begin again at fifty or seventy for different reasons, you know, and I just think this is your path, that's your journey. It's beautiful, embrace it, make it your own. There's not a right or wrong here, and just take whatever you can with you on the ride. And like you said, when you run into evidence of good people that are like, oh, cool, he went back to school at this age too. It's like, okay, I can do that. You know, I can do that, and she did that and he did that. And it's like, there are people out here, there's a lot more than you think.

Mark 59:28

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that

Embracing Your Own Timeline + Making Mistakes

Mark 59:30

that's what that's what has given me the drive and the you know, the hope going forward is talking and and interacting with these people that have had similar experiences, maybe not the exact same story, but you know, had to start over at a later, a later time and and now they're doing great. And you know, that has what has been helpful as far as like having hope that things get better.

Netanya 59:58

Yes. And there is a there's something that I saw or I've seen online, and I don't know where it is, it's a list of I think it's celebrities and the ages at which they have done certain things. Oh yeah. It's I can't remember. It's something like at like 29, George Clooney was a carpenter or something. Things that blow your mind because you're like, what? Because he's a very largely famous actor with a great long list of films and things, and it's like, but at 29, he wasn't even in the mu in the movie industry. You know, and it does that.

Mark 1:00:37

Pedro Pascal's one too, I think. He didn't start acting until he was like 40.

Netanya 1:00:41

Yeah. There it but it's a whole list of sele and I can't remember, it's like Julia Child didn't start cooking until she was like 50. It's just it and it goes all the way into like famous people who didn't start doing something until and I think the later ones are like 70s, 80s. But it's just it's sort of I love referencing it in my own brain because it's you're on your own timeline. Yeah. And you're exactly where you're supposed to be. Yeah. And to trust that.

Mark 1:01:10

Yeah, and it's and that's it's a process of coming to trust that. But the further you get, and it's all it's just evidence-based, I guess. The further you get and the more people you encounter, you're all like, oh, okay. And then that that solidifies it in your mind that like, okay, it it's gonna be okay, and I it's okay to be where I'm at.

Netanya 1:01:27

Yeah. And not only is it okay, it's fucking great. Yeah. You're killing it. Like you said, comparative, like what are you talking about when you're talking about measuring before is measuring backwards, where you're checking where was I six months ago, nine months ago, two years ago, we're often measuring forwards. Where have I not gotten to yet? Which then you're in the gap of where you the lack of what you haven't done yet instead of what you're talking about doing in about face and looking behind you, which is so much more validating because we forget so easily how far we've come.

Mark 1:01:57

Yeah. Yeah, facts really do. One thing, when I so when I had all this happen with my dad and was seeing some of my family who I hadn't seen in a really long time, I felt a little embarrassed. I was very honest about my situation because I just I I'm at a point in my recovery where bullshitting and lying makes me feel really dirty. So even when it's uncomfortable to tell the truth, I just do it. So I have my family asking me, Well, what do you are you still living in Clarksville? Whatever. I'm like, no, I'm in, I'm in Nashville. Oh, really? You know, what's what you know, what do you do? Do you do um I'm in sober living? Yeah, I um I've I've got eight months clean, you know? And comparatively, like not talking to, you know, not not talking or seeing my brother in like five years, um, my stepsister who was there, not I haven't seen or talked to her in probably closer to like seven. Um, eight months doesn't seem like a super long time. And I was a little bit embarrassed to be like, here I am again at 36 years old. I'm in sober living, I have eight months clean. But then I I I stepped out at one point and I was talking to my mom, who has been there and seen everything for the last 36 years. I was telling her exactly that. I was like, I felt a little bit embarrassed. She was like, Mark, I understand that, but and maybe to them, eight months doesn't seem like a long time. But to us, eight months is a fucking miracle. And I was like, Yeah, you're right. Like it really, yeah, to to me, it is. I never would have thought that I would have made it this long. I I really before going into treatment and and starting this journey, I thought that I was going to die an addict, an active addiction. That was my future. And things that I have accomplished and the gifts I've been given from this program just over the last eight months. You know, they talk about it, you hear it in meetings and stuff, and I always thought it was such a cliche, but the ninth step promises, you know, you'll be amazed before you're halfway through. It's like, that is so corny. Like, okay. Uh, but it's true, but it's true. Like, I could have, I couldn't have thought, I couldn't have imagined it. There are there are times when I am driving home from work, or just it it's various points where I have to stop and I'm like, is this is this my life now? Because it's pretty fucking good. And I just I'm amazed. So it yeah, it's it's great.

Netanya 1:04:26

All right. I have one last question for you.

Mark 1:04:28

What's up?

Netanya 1:04:30

What is something that you hope that listeners give themselves permission to do after listening to this episode?

Mark 1:04:38

Uh man. Permission to make mistakes. You know, I I talked a lot about comparing myself to others, talked about being super self-critical. You're not gonna do any of this perfectly. And whether that's recovery, whether that is just regular life, if there is just a regular person who's never struggled with alcoholism, addiction, anything like that, you're gonna make mistakes. And just giving yourself grace. This has been the biggest thing that has helped me. I am such a forgiving person to other people. I'm so understanding. I am just one to give somebody five, six chances, and I again just just unlimited grace, it feels like, but I've never offered that to myself. So the kind of mantra I go by now is I try to offer myself the grace that I would offer other people, and that has been life changing. I mean, really, to to be able to not be so hard on myself because I um okay, you know, I lied to my sister. This and this is just a recent thing. So I had made uh lunch plans, I ended up, I woke up that morning, just was tired. Did not want to do it. But because I'm an addict and I I want to try and save face, I made up some shit about being called into work. But that was a mistake. And I instead of beating myself up over it, I made those direct amends, you know, as as quickly as I could call her and be like, hey, I lied to you. Um, I don't know why I did it. And funny thing is, she was like, Yeah, I figured that you did, and it's fine. Like, I get it. Um but I think before I would have just really beat myself up over and be like, God, you are such a piece of shit. You're just, you are, you are just a liar. Uh, but instead, it's like, again, I have an addict brain. I was, I was trying to save face. I was trying to look better than or I was trying to make myself look better. And I just have to give myself um, you know, just a break to make those mistakes. And and I learned from it, you know, because I it made me feel like shit. And so I know now that I don't want to do that again, you know, like it like I talked about like about how it makes you feel icky, like it just does not feel good. So yeah, giving yourself grace.

Netanya 1:07:13

Thank you. Thank you for being here and for saying yes.

Mark 1:07:18

Yeah, no, thank you for having me.

Netanya 1:07:22

Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to NataniaAllison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.