EP31: Do It Scared | Navigating Perfectionism and Finding Your People with Isabel Serafin

This week, I sat down with the incredible Isabel Serafin, and we explored the notion that the "perfectionist" mindset is actually a one-way ticket to the loneliness epidemic. We often treat perfectionism like a personality quirk, but in this conversation, we look at it for what it really is: a barrier to the very intimacy that heals us. 

Isabel opens up about her journey as a queer woman of color navigating recovery, moving from the "shadow" of depression and disordered eating toward a life built on radical honesty, community, and self-forgiveness. She shares how she went from feeling isolated to building her own thriving queer recovery circles—not by being perfect, but by being vulnerable. 

In this episode, we’re talking about: 

• The Performative Wall: 
  Why waiting until you’re "fixed" to seek connection is a trap that keeps us isolated, and why your current struggles are actually the strongest bridge to others. 
• Building Community from Scratch: 
  How Isabel moved past the fear of judgment to create the spaces she couldn't find, proving that if you "do it scared" and put yourself out there, others will show up. 
• Radical Self-Forgiveness: 
  Trading the "reward and punishment" cycle for a life of integrity and humanity. 

This episode is a roadmap for anyone who has ever felt "othered," anyone struggling with an internal critic, and anyone looking for the courage to show up exactly as they are and find their people. 

Full episode + show notes: netanyaallyson.com/episodes/31

Transcript

Perfectionism + Addiction

Netanya 0:00

There are moments in life that split us open. Why it unravelings, such fragments were truths, we didn't know we needed. Until we had no choice. This podcast is about those moments. It's about the turning points that change us. The things I wish someone had told me that I only understand and looking back. Come on in. You belong here. And we're gonna talk about all of it. I'm your host, Natanya, and this is what I didn't know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause any time you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Isabel Serafin. In this episode, we get into why perfectionism is the ultimate barrier to intimacy, moving past the fear of judgment to find community for yourself.

unknown 0:59

Uh uh.

Netanya 1:00

And we talk about trading the reward and punishment cycle for a life of integrity and humanity. Here we go. All right, so I'm excited you're here. I've been thinking about it all day. And um one of the things what I want to kick us off with today is just something that's been up for me this week that I know is also something that's up for you, which is perfectionism. I um I ran into it three different times this week in three different scenarios and caught myself and had to work through the mental space of getting over that for myself. But I'm curious, what has your experience been like with perfectionism?

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Oh my God. It's probably honestly my number one addiction, my most harmful addiction, the longest running addiction that I have. And honestly, I think it's a big part of what led to my alcoholism and substance use, like tanking so rapidly, so quickly, so young. Um, and and it's pretty much been responsible for every emotional bottom I've had since getting sober.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

So that's that's my relationship to perfectionism.

Netanya 2:21

What is your earliest memory of it? Or like where did it begin for you?

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Yeah, that's a great question. I think, you know, I'm an identical twin. And I always describe that as feeling like kind of a perpetual science experiment. Um and and I think like something about that comparison throughout my entire life made me feel like I had to be, you know, I don't remember how I felt about it as a kid, but at least as good as somebody else, certainly not worse. And and the older we got, that comparison kind of became more pronounced. People would be like, you're the more outgoing twin, you're the more quiet twin, you're the more creative. And even, you know, like I remember a couple of people saying that I was like the fat twin. And this was in elementary school. Um, so I think at least that basis of comparison related to my directly related to my self-worth, um, started very young for me. And then I got into dance super early, I got into sports really early. And I think like that that desire in me to be a performer and to be an achiever and to like just do good and get recognition, that for me just continued on throughout my entire life.

Netanya 3:42

So that was when you were younger with your twin. Then what happened when you got older?

SPEAKER_01 3:48

I think for me, that that need to achieve and the need to perform and be better, I think just got really exacerbated. Um, because I did, you know, start having symptoms of depression around eight years old, and that just really started feeding everything and then getting bullied a lot in high school. I think all of it contributed to each other. And, you know, when you're like a kid and all you want is to be perfect, that was already in my mind, was like, that's what I needed to be to get recognition, to feel good enough. I needed substances to take the edge off of that perfectionism. It was so loud, it was so unbearable. And when I couldn't like meet that perfectionist's expectations, like it was yeah, intolerable. So substances allowed me to like, because I remember I did speech and debate and I did musical theater and I did cheerleading. And so I was at the school from like seven in the morning to like 10.30 at night. And then I'd go home and I would smoke or I would drink just to like turn off, turn off that thing. Because as soon as I was awake, it was on again immediately. And that just yeah, continued into my adult life.

Netanya 5:07

So, what has that been like now that you're in recovery and you don't have that as like a turn off button anymore?

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Yeah. It's been a real challenge. I I was reflecting on this the other day because I think my least favorite thing when I first got sober was when old timers or long timers, whatever you want to call them, with a lot of time. People with a lot of time. Yeah, controversial language. But um I used to hate when they would say, like, I'm jealous of the people just getting sober because you're you have the best years of your life ahead of you. And this first year's you you're gonna grow more, and I wish I could do it all over again. And like now with where I'm at now, my first year felt terrible at the moment. But I think that was the least I had ever had to lose, and my purpose was so clear. And I knew that there was no way to do sobriety perfectly except to just not drink again. So I was still definitely hard on myself, but that first year felt the closest to the authentic version of myself that I have ever been before getting sober and have ever been since, really. Because after that first year, my life started to come back together, the stakes started getting high again. There were things to be perfect at. And I think for me, my perfectionism is a lot about failure and what that entails. Like fear of failure and and that correlation to my self-worth. And so, yeah, I think like as much as I love the life that I've built and I'm so, so grateful, it's like it's a hard thing to to separate from each other, you know, that achievement and perfectionism and humility. So what happens if you fail? I don't know. I haven't done any big failure yet. I think that's part of the problem. Yeah. I got sober at 22 and now I'm 26. So like I I haven't haven't lost a family, haven't had a business fail, haven't made any decisions since getting sober that were too egregious, you know. And I think that's part of it. I think I don't know what that like demoralizing failure when you've put everything, best faith into something and it fails. I just don't know what that feels like. I know what failing at life means, you know, from from being an alcoholic and getting to where I did. But I don't know. For some reason in my mind, it's different.

Netanya 7:37

What is your inner story that like goes in your head when you're, you know, tugging along, chugging along, trying to get to a thing and you feel it kick in or you feel it like I have to get to this thing, what is that like inside your head?

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yeah, I think for me, it's a lot about expectations and it's a lot about how people will externally perceive me. So I very much look at my goals as like with external milestones and checkpoints. So in the same way that I measure my perfectionism and how good I am at being perfect by external validation and praise, um the fear of of failure is always like letting people down or failing to meet people's expectations, or even, I mean, one that I have a lot, especially being a young, queer woman of color, like you know, feeling struggling a lot with that feeling of being othered, is that people will be right about me if I fail. You know, like they'll think I couldn't do it or that I couldn't handle it. And then that will mean they were right. And do I really think anybody's like preying on my downfall?

SPEAKER_00 8:42

No, I'm not one of those like maybe more paranoid people about like people are hating on me. I don't know. I I just I don't think that I'm that important, particularly, just me.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Um but yeah, but it's very much that of like, I'm afraid that I yeah, the the the stakes are very external for me, which is interesting.

Netanya 9:04

It is interesting. I'm curious what it's like for you to be in the space of surrender or acceptance when something's happening that you can't control.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Yeah, yeah. That's that's always been a that's probably been my biggest challenge in recovery. Cause like I said, every bottom I've hit when I'm in 12-step spaces, I correlate it to the third step. Like it's always about the third step for me and my unwillingness to turn things over to fate or turn things over to higher power, I forget that I have to. And my perfectionism goes right along with my my need for control. I'm a control freak. I need to know what people are thinking. I need to know how things are gonna go. I need to make backup plans for backup plans for backup plans. And when I have been in positions where I feel out of control or when I feel like I can't anticipate what's gonna come next, those are the moments, honestly, when I when I've turned to either maladaptive behaviors or or I just fall apart, you know, it can even be as simple as like, I'm not a crier. I try to stuff things and even abide by my perfectionism when I'm by myself and no one's looking. Um and so I'll fall apart and then I'll feel like a failure for falling apart, and I'll feel like, you know, yeah, the stress got to me, and that means I can't hack it. And then at worst, throughout my sobriety, it's it's led to struggles with returning to disordered eating, which is something that I know a lot of women struggle with, especially in recovery. It's led to even just like backslides with my own mental health. It's like easy to go back to a place of wanting to give up when you feel like, you know, there's no winning in a situation. Ultimately, I think it usually leads back to me going back to therapy, going back to the program and like recommitting to 12-step or you know, this last time um I kind of went through a rough patch. I started seeing a psychiatrist again and double down on some therapy and just made some adjustments in my life. So yeah.

Netanya 10:59

Well, that that was kind of my question. So I love that you answered it, which is when you do start to feel yourself backsliding, how do you interrupt that so that you don't go the full gamut, right? Or and like in the moment.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Mm-hmm. Yeah, in the moment's tough. I'm I'm also definitely the kind of person I'll let myself indulge it a little bit. I think for me as an alcoholic, this is a conversation I had with a close friend of mine. Is that I think another thing that some people in recovery struggle with is feeling like there always has to be something wrong with me. Or feeling like there is always something wrong with me. And it's just sometimes it's present, sometimes there's not. So I think it's more familiar for me to indulge the the maladaptive behavior. But but you're right, like the the gift of recovery is that I'm so much quicker to catch it because the stakes are higher, because I've you know been able to accomplish things, I'm like, I can't let things get that bad. And and I think generally speaking, it's it's a net positive, you know, going through these cycles. But I I would like to think that there's a point in time in my recovery where maybe the cycles won't have to be quite so dramatic. You know, I still fight these things like tooth and nail. It's it's still a little ridiculous.

Spirituality and Higher Power in Recovery

Netanya 12:22

Well, it's it's just part of the process, right? You're learning and growing as we are all, and like healing doesn't happen in a straight line. You go up and down and steps back and forward, and all of that's valid, and all of that's also okay. It's about just can you keep getting up again and keep going? So I'm curious about we talked about step three for a second. What is your relationship to spirituality, to divinity, to higher power, whatever you call it or not, or just what has that been like for you? And like take that as far back as you want, whatever you grew up with and where you're at now.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Yeah, I was raised Catholic. I was a total Catholic. I've gotten all my sacraments up till this point. Um and uh yeah, I I had a complicated relationship to religion, but I think not as kind of one-dimensionally upsetting as a lot of people who grew up Catholic, especially queer and Catholic was. I went to Catholic school as a kid from kindergarten through sixth grade, and I loved it. My Catholic school in in Albuquerque, New Mexico was like wonderful. I don't remember any fire and brimstone. I don't really particularly remember anyone talking much about hell or what would get you sent there. I just remember them talking about what being a good person looks like, what Jesus did for us, what being Christian means. And it was all very positive. And then I moved to Kansas and it was a little bit more of that like just traditional, right and wrong, black and white, um, still not quite fire and brimstone. But I remember in in catechism classes, like it was very clear to me that I was picking up quickly on the categories, the boxes that I checked that would send me to hell. And I think at that point my relationship to religion really started to change. Um because I associated it with getting older. You know, I was like, oh, now I just see it for what it is, rather than having the perspective now, which is that like people practice religion differently, like human beings, you know. Um and now I can, you know, honestly, I think part of why perfectionism is still such a struggle for me is because if I were to assess the health of my own recovery, I think my relationship to a higher power is kind of the thing that I do the least consistently. And whatever reason that I love tarot cards, I love crystals, I've been better about prayer. Um, yeah, at some points I'm I'm good about the third step prayer and the serenity prayer and saying those often, but it's usually when I'm struggling. I usually only turn to a higher power when I'm struggling. And I think like at the end of the day, there's no right way to practice the third step. But I would venture to say that my way is not the best.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Having this like tangential and needs-based relationship to God. It also feels very alcoholic to me.

The Complexity of Eating Disorders

Netanya 15:18

Um, I love that I also was raised Catholic. And so my experience is a little bit different. It was very, it was good, but it was very the feeling of right and wrong was there all the time of like there's a right way to do this and there's a wrong way to do it. And um I was always like never good enough for whatever like the white man in the chair in the sky. Like I was never good enough to be that, I was never gonna be that. And so it was always unattainable. And I was always like trying to get somewhere that I couldn't be. And so um that's been an interesting experience over time. But I agree with you on the I have my I call it recovery a la carte, like in general, where like how I do recovery in general is I pick and choose and take things that work for me. And that includes different types of 12-step programs, that includes um nature, that includes exercise, that includes therapy and body work and you know, just I just take it and I move with it and I let it be what I need at the time because I am in an evolution. I'm gonna keep evolving. I need different things at times as I keep changing, right? It's no different than the seasons change and you need different things that throughout the year, like there's a period of hibernation, there's a period of new growth in the spring, there's the sun in the summer, you know, and the harvest in the fall, and like kind of going back into the winter again. And I've noticed that me as a human, I do those as well, right? And it may not be in order. Like sometimes it's this one and that one. It's not like this beautiful cyclical thing necessarily. Three winters in a row. I guess it has happened. Um, but the way I choose to do recovery for me, and that's not for everyone, right? Some people need a very strict schedule or program, and that's what works for them. That's what keeps them in the straight lane. And for me, spirituality also falls under that a la carte category. I love tarot cards and oracle decks. I use them daily. I pulled some before this call. Um just for like guidance, direction, validation. That helps me a lot. But also, like nature is my church. And I had a when I was, you know, 18, 19, I had a reckoning with the Catholic Church in my head and what I thought this should be. And I didn't want to talk about God. And like people would say the word God and I would be polite, but I stopped listening. And um it took me a while into my 20s to kind of come back around to how can I relate to this in a different way? Because I didn't know growing up in a Catholic school that that I had other options. Like I knew other people didn't go to Catholic school because I had neighbors that didn't. But I didn't I in the right or wrong, like I was right in the way that I did it, the way I learned. And so other people are wrong, which is not helpful for many reasons. But to come back around as an adult and be like, oh, and be curious about it. I had a I had a class in college um that was like world religion. And I had never, I didn't know anything about world religion, not really. And so I remember I was so interested because I was like, what do you mean they they spend their whole lives saving money and then travel to Mecca? Like that's a that's this thing that they do as a family or culture in this religion. Or what is Buddhism? And what do you mean, enlightenment? Like these different things, or what do you mean people have 50 gods or goddesses, or you know, just all these things that I didn't know that I've loved being being eclectic about spirituality? But I do try, and it's a practice, right? Just like like I said before, that even the way I interact with it before, I did the same thing that you did where it's like I only prayed when I needed something. And I I sort of called myself out on that, no different than you just did, of like, is that helpful? And what if what if I could be more celebratory of where I am and use that as a prayer, like the thank you prayer, just saying thank you for all the good that has been given to me or the guidance I've gotten or the support I've gotten a long way. And like, you don't have to be super spiritual to to be in that state of just being thankful for all the help that I've been given.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Right. No, I I I love that. And, you know, I think a lot of the people whose recovery I admire most, whether they're like stringent 12-step, still go to three meetings to seven meetings a week. Um or, you know, like maybe don't go to 12-step anymore or or only go occasionally, you know, the people that I think have the strongest program of recovery have different things that are a part of it. And that that's certainly been the case for me. I love something my sponsor says is that he wears a like a loose garment. Um I think that that's so such an apt descriptor of how I've moved through that. And and and at the same time, I think shameless plug, Colorado Artist in Recovery, yeah. Participating in those like more arts-based recovery spaces, have taught me much more about my relationship to spirituality and vulnerability in particular than you know, 12-step necessarily did. I just had more breakthroughs there. And same with my relationship to physical movement and running specifically. Um, past couple of years, I got really into running outside and like trail running. I guess paved trails. I'm not that adventurous. I'm very crazy, so they do have to be paved. But um I have had more higher power moments and nothing crazy, just like a breeze blows, and I'm called to look up and I see the trees and I see the sky peeking through it, and I feel connected. I've had more moments like that running and not doing anything besides listening to a true crime podcast about something horrific, and I'm just outside, you know? And it's those moments where I'm like, oh, the spirituality is reaching out to me. It's meeting me where I'm at. And I think the way you phrased it as being more celebratory about it is such a good perspective. It's such a helpful perspective for for someone like me who is I am more regimented. I lean towards things that are definitive because it's like, you know, you're not gonna at the end of the day, you don't pursue things that feel punishing typically, you know, or things uh as as you know, alcoholics and addicts, sometimes it's hard to to do things that we feel like we have. To do or we're compelled to do. And I think celebrating and being like in communion with just something that feels rewarding rather than punishing, I would imagine is a lot more of a reinforcement.

Netanya 22:16

Yeah. Um, and you brought up earlier, I mean, you talk about writing, but we also talk you brought up eating disorders. And when you when you just mentioned that about rewarding and punishing, I'm curious about what your relationship has been like with eating disorders.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Yeah, I think part of why there's such a high co-occurrence with with eating disorders and substance use is um I think the reward punishment system is very similar because I don't know, the the reward feels so real that the punishment doesn't matter as much. Um and and for me, like punishment is kind of part of I think it's I'm sure it's not one-dimensional for everybody, but maybe it's the Catholicism, but I kind of am a glutton for punishment and I'm much more comfortable punishing myself. And I describe a lot of my early recovery as feeling like I had to do penance all the time. Um, like I was constantly compensating for the wrong that I had done. And I think that gave me a sense of control. Because if I was punishing myself, nobody else would do it. And if I was punishing myself, then I was inherently doing the right thing because, you know, whether I was doing things right or wrong, at least I was taking corrective action about it. And then there's yeah, I think to me, disordered eating is a lot more about punishment and the reward of it and and the reinforcement of it is uh I mean, sometimes it's the result, right? Like the things that you would expect, the feeling you get, the the, you know, I don't want to say anything too triggering, but but the the way you feel, I feel like is the the reinforcement. And then the punishment is is kind of also the desired outcome for me. You know, it's it is this really complicated relationship and and it's something that I've been looking at a lot more lately because it's so similar to substance use in so many ways for me in the way that I've engaged in it throughout my life. But it's also so different because like you need to eat and you live in a body and there's no abstinence from like being a human. Um, but you know, maybe it's not that different because I don't really have reprieve from being an alcoholic either. Like I'm I'm in an alcoholic brain, whether I like it or not. But I have found that the same things tend to work, like reaching out to people, praying, really community. Community is the big thing for me that's always done for me what I couldn't do for myself. And that's been like the main common thread that's pulled me out of whatever dark place I've been in since getting sober.

Netanya 24:56

Do you feel like you've seen improvement in your experience with eating and food over time?

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yeah, I think I've gotten more graceful with myself. Um and like that perfectionism, man, it's it's a it's a real beast. Like speaking candidly and vulnerably, I think being four years into this journey, I think a lot about what things will look like later down the line. And sometimes I do feel like, you know, I uh had this really exponential trajectory of getting back on track after getting sober. And now I have an incredible job at an incredible place that I love and I'm on these incredible boards, and and it can be easy to have imposter syndrome and for that critic to really kick in. And and even still, I think there's no sobriety day attached to my eating disorder. I think I have one for self-injury and self-harm and cutting. Um, I have one for my substance use. And with the exception of certain behaviors, there's just, you know, it's more of a gradient. And I think, I think my relationship to where I'm at with that recovery has a lot to do with where I'm at in my like mental health recovery, in my my relationship to myself, my perfectionism, and how hard I'm being on myself. Because when I'm in a good place, I don't feel the need to punish myself. I can have a lot of grace. I can treat myself like I would a friend. I would never punish a friend for making a mistake or failing. That's just not what we do as human beings to each other, really. If you're gloating over someone's failure, a jerk, you know?

unknown 26:40

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

So I think it's very much tied to my relationship to myself and to my perfectionism as to where I'm at with that eating disorder recovery. And looking at the long term, I think I'm still kind of at a place where like I look at, I look at that piece, I look at my relationship to myself and my self-image, and I'm like, I'm sure I'll get to a place someday where it's more manageable. And right now it still feels like such a balancing act. But maybe everybody feels that way. I don't have the best perspective on that either, you know?

Netanya 27:12

Mm-hmm. Um I'm curious about what is your relationship been like? We're talking about the hard things, right? Perfectionism and punishment. What has your relationship been like to forgiveness? Specifically self-forgiveness, but also including other things, people past trauma.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Mm-hmm. I do think that that can be such a useful piece of step work. I think that that's something I'm working on right now. Um, and is a big part of my like sixth and seventh step, right? And that's that's you know, identifying defects of character and letting them go. And and I think for me, forgiveness is a big part of that because forgiveness for me allows myself to let it go. Um and and the better that I've gotten at forgiving myself for doing things that I perceive to be wrong or not doing things well enough, the less I have to rely on other people to to give me that validation and to to help steer me in the right direction. Because if I can forgive myself for for anything, then then the stakes aren't that high anymore, you know.

Netanya 28:23

Yeah. Um, I love that you said validation. That's something I was in a conversation with about with someone else the other day on like I think it's sort of touted as a bad thing, right? Validation that like you need validation or external validation is that that's somehow a flaw. But where I was going with it in that conversation was that validation is also very helpful and useful as feedback, right? It's like someone tells me they like this podcast, it gives me uh affirmation that it's working, that it's doing what I'm what I'm intending it to do, that people are resonating with it, which then encourages me to continue. Right. So in some in some spaces, validation in that sense is useful. But then when it tips over too far to the shadow of like seeking it to to measure whether or not you're good enough, now we're in a different boat.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Right. Exactly. Um and I think for me that's the dangerous part is is the weight that I've put on external validation versus internal validation because it has skewed as like a zero and a hundred percent kind of a thing. And I think there's certainly a balance, you know. I I want to surround myself with people that it'll mean something when they call me out for doing stuff, um, or when they tell me that I'm doing a great job, that it resonates and that it feels like I've received something. And yeah, the trouble really is when like I can't validate myself. And I think that's another thing that's been a challenge for me in navigating perfectionism is that I have a hard time determining when I've done something to my liking, because perfectionism doesn't allow you to have an endpoint. There is no goal to reach, it keeps moving. So I even kind of think you can be as as relational to self-validation as as you want to be. You can have a good relationship with it, bad relationship with it. But if you struggle with perfectionism and the goalpost's always going to keep moving, you're you're still gonna have that sense of I just missed the mark though. Like I could do better though. I can, if I had done this part, then maybe we could have gotten somewhere else. And and even that can really start to chip away at you.

The Balance of Isolation and Connection

Netanya 30:39

Well, yeah. And on some level, there's a healthy level of that, right? Like keep going because it's what it's what drives you to be better, which is not necessarily a bad thing. And then also when it tips too far into the shadow, I love that just about everything. You can give me a topic and I can talk about the light side of something and the shadow side of something. Because there's duality in everything, which is just fascinating. But I have to check myself on um one of mine that I struggle with or work on regularly is isolation. And so where am I? You know, I need downtime. I'm a human that needs to be alone. I'm an introvert. And by introvert, I mean I gain energy from being alone. And so it's not that I'm shy or quiet, which is an old misconception of what that means. It just means that being around too many people or environments where there's a lot of chaos or things going on, things like malls or Disneyland or whatever is not my favorite. Um, because I can feel people. And then a friend of mine who was an extrovert explained this one day and it was it was really great. If we both start the day with five pennies and he goes out into the day and talks to people, he comes back with 10 pennies. Like if he talks to five people, he comes back with 10 pennies. If I talk to the same five people, I come back with nothing. And so it's that space of of um, how do I show up and how do I manage my own experience and take responsibility for for the way that I move in around the world? But I do have to check myself on the light and the shadow of when am I when am I, you know, coming home and decompressing and taking care of myself and knowing that I need to be alone because I just exerted all my energy out in the day. And when am I avoiding? And when am I hermiting or isolating and it's kind of gone too far in the in the like, I need to, I need to go do something because this is this is you know that part of me that's like I don't I don't want to go out again.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Yeah, absolutely. That is the tricky part, isn't it? Is is being able to self-discern where you're at on that light and shadow scale. Yeah. And that's why for me, having a sponsor, having a therapist, I have two therapists at the moment. Lucky me. Um, they are great. I guess lucky me, but I I really value having that perspective when I'm at points where I feel like I can't trust my own judgment. And I think that that's such an important coping skill for people to have. Um, I don't know what people that don't struggle enough to need a therapist or don't struggle enough to need a sponsor do because I'm like, who's who's guiding you? Who's giving your opinion on your decisions? Um, but I also think, you know, you you said something about that, that light side and shadow side. And I totally do think that almost everything, if whether it's a positive, negative, neutral, it really is all on a spectrum. It's all on a scale. And I think, and maybe it's just because this has been a topic in meetings I've been at a lot, like humility is always the goal because humility almost is the nature of being in that middle spot. At least to me, humility means that middle point. And humility has really often felt like the um opposite of perfectionism, like the antithesis of perfectionism. And it's just an ideal. I don't know that humility is meant to be attained. I don't know if it's possible, but yeah.

Netanya 34:16

Yeah. Well, in that space of of self-trust, like you're talking about, I had to work a lot on that in therapy, maybe more than anything. Right. It's just especially at the at the moment of which I found myself like collapsed my whole life and then was like, oh, this isn't going well. I need some help here. That was one of the biggest things that came out of when I fully started to go to therapy was I don't trust myself. And I have a lot of evidence that I'm not trustworthy. I can't trust me. And everything from lying or hiding, and no matter how little, right? It can be big lies or even just small like fibs to be seen differently or to not own something fully. But that space of I just had a lot of evidence that I couldn't trust me because I had not and not only just being trustworthy as a human, like right or wrong in how you're making decisions, but I couldn't trust myself to be in integrity with myself.

The Evolving Moral Compass

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Yeah, I think integrity really does take a while to develop. And I think so many of us lose touch with our moral compass, or I I mean, even for me, I think maybe I never developed a great sense of of what my values were, what I measured things against. But yeah, I also really struggled with that self-trust because I felt like, you know, what I wanted, what I desired, what I thought was right and wrong was so flimsy. And I think that that's I don't know, it's such a hard thing to find. I think again, I look a lot at community for that. I think of my queer community and how I've gotten to the point that I have with my gender identity, um, you know, I identify as a non-binary woman. And I don't think that I would wholly have grasped that or really had the language to identify with that and feel that sense of like, oh, okay, this feels aligned for me. If I hadn't been around people that were reflecting back at me things that I related to. And I think values can very much be the same way. And I feel like I am the person I am today because of the people around me who I've I've seen the way that they live their lives, I've seen their value system. And I'm like, yeah, this person knows exactly how to stand up to people. This person knows I've watched them be honest even when it's hard. I've watched this person work harder than anybody else. But I've also seen the inverse. I think one of the assets that I've had in recovery and watching people and is that I I feel like I try to learn from other people's mistakes. And when I see that imbalance too, I try to look at where other people are on that spectrum and and what does that cost them? You know, like if they're a hard worker, do they have poor self-care and and what does that look like for them? It doesn't always mean that I apply it, but I certainly internalize it. And it's so, so helpful for me as a person who very much still feels like I'm I'm growing up in a lot of ways to to to have people to look up to, you know.

Netanya 37:28

Yeah. Well, and how do you feel like you're when we talk about self-trust and moral compass, where do you feel like you sit with that today?

SPEAKER_01 37:37

I think that for me, it's ever changing. I think that I'm always learning about really it's less about learning and it's more about unlearning. Like every time I think that I fully have a grasp on right and wrong, I'm kind of proven otherwise. And I think, I think working in recovery has really helped me see that. I was just talking about this the other day, the open mics, seeing the most beautiful performances and earnest prose and and beautiful poetry. It's, you know, it's so one-dimensionally good, you know, um, and pure. And then people will be honest about their backstories. And, you know, I think growing up, I thought that there were there were lines that you could cross that would mean something about your character. Um, that, you know, if you I don't know, and I think I think people have differing opinions about this too, based on their lived experiences. But if you were a violent person, for instance, if you could commit an act of violence against another person and cross that line, that inherently meant something about your character and you had an innate quality that allows you to go past that line. And I think one of the beautiful things about being sober is that I'm constantly proven wrong. I I do believe people can change now. I believe people can change exponentially. I don't think anyone's past saving. I don't think, you know, I've tried really, really hard to think about the extremes of human behavior. And I just have a hard time now thinking that anyone's truly irredeemable. And that's been a big shift, and maybe that'll shift again. But it has impacted that moral, that value has really shifted the way that I view people and that I have compassion for people and that I tread through today's political landscape. It's granted me a lot of sanity. But then there's other things that I do have a harder, harder time with morally. I think like sacrificing is one, making sacrifices I always thought is morally good and justifiable. My dad sacrificed a lot for my family. But then the older I got, you know, he would always tell me like his uh one of his regrets, one of the things that he'd learned that he wished he'd known earlier was that he would have sacrificed some of that financial success to spend more time with his family. Just the act of sacrificing doesn't make you a saint. It doesn't make you a martyr. And I think that I can get in the bad habit of self-sacrificing. And yeah, I think you learn a lot of morals going through the world. I think what's really important to me right now is just I don't know. And the thing that's really been the most stringent for me is just trying to do the next right thing. I think that's always been clear enough for me to follow when what I'm faced with the moral dilemma is like do the next right thing. And if you don't know what the next right thing is, then do the next thing right. And that has really gotten me through a lot when I felt like I didn't know what to do.

Netanya 40:47

I love that. Given all the things that we're talking about, how do you feel? Where do you feel like you've changed the most?

SPEAKER_01 40:55

That's a great question. I think I am a physically and emotionally unrecognizable person from when I got sober, which is great. I think I think I used to, and this is one of the gifts of perfectionism, because you're you're very right in that it all has some level of value. I think perfectionism and what in my narrative therapy also translates to like unrelenting standards. I think that has led to me really honing one of my favorite qualities about myself, which is that I am very ambitious. And what recovery has shown me is that there is nothing that I can't do. Um, there are so many things that I thought were going to be goals for like five to 10 years out. Already happened. And every time that happens, I'm like, all right, what's next? What else can I do? Let's think bigger. Let's, you know, and and that's been such a gift because I it is very antithetical to my fear of failure, uh to ambition. But yeah, I just I think I have a lot more faith in my ability to get things done and to really believe that I can do whatever I set my mind to and internalize that and believe that.

Netanya 42:18

So, in terms of the underlying theme of, you know, in talking about perfectionism and the eating disorder and recovery and all of the other things that we've talked about, what is the pulse of depression in that thread?

SPEAKER_01 42:34

Yeah, it is it is pervasive. It is everywhere. Uh I think for me, depression is is is like my shadow, you know. And I think like substance use and eating disorders are the way that it manifests for me, um, or self-harm in general, really. Um but but I think, you know, that's always been my my biggest like enemy, my biggest challenger since it came up when I was eight was that fear that like I was always gonna be sick. I am always gonna have this thing about me that is fundamentally wrong. And and that's such a tough thing to work through and something I'm very much still working through because like it can't be proven wrong, really, but it can definitely be proven right. But I can't take a full skit. There might be something wrong with me. I don't, I don't know what it's like to be in another person's mind. But um, but yeah, but that is a thing that that is very easy to be proven right. And but, you know, I'm also grateful for my depression because I think it makes me very compassionate. I think that it makes me able to relate to people. I think that uh I think that it has kept me grounded as well and and away from leaning too far into ambitious. Endeavors and yeah, I don't know. Now I'm thinking about like the spectrum of everything and the good and bad of of it all, you know? Yeah.

Netanya 44:09

Um, what helps you the most when you're in those spaces of and please educate me because I I don't have an experience with depression directly. What is what is that like when you is it like you feel it coming on? Does it hit you out of nowhere? And when that happens, how do you move forward?

SPEAKER_01 44:28

Yeah. I I do very much, I can feel it coming on. I think for me, it definitely comes in waves and it almost feels I've always described it as this like dark fog or shadow at the back of my mind or like a storm, but it's always lingering in the back of my mind. I can always see it, it's always there, and then I can see it when it starts to roll in and and at its worst, it encompasses everything. I can't see anything through it, and I can't move reliably because I can't see what's around me. And I think in those moments that has also been when I've relied a lot on other people because I think the thing about depression is that there's I think that there's other things that that are similar, but there's no fighting your way out of it really. There's there's coping skills, but but the nature of it is paralyzing. And so I think in between episodes, it's for me really about building my support system, clueing other people in on what is helpful for me, what I need from them. And as I see that stuff start to come on, like I'm telling people in my AA circles, I'm being very vocal about what's going on so that if I start to disappear, or if I start to fade, or or if I start being rude to people, or if I start ghosting people, you know, they know what's going on and they can they can help me when I can't help myself.

Netanya 45:56

What would you tell someone if they don't have a community yet or are in that space of like, how do I find these great people that she's talking about all the time in all these different spaces on all these like pretty strong topics in terms of how to find your people?

SPEAKER_01 46:13

That's such a great question because I was a chronic loner for the longest time and didn't feel like I belonged anywhere and didn't think community was accessible for me. And I think in those, you know, in those situations, a lot of the times the first step and the first step for me historically when when community wasn't accessible was medication. And and and that's also not an option for everybody. I think, I think you can more broadly look at it as, you know, like where can you make adjustments in, you know, your day-to-day life in between depressive episodes of like things that bring you joy, because those are gonna be the easiest things to get back to when you're in a tough spot. Like as simple as like a warm shower. Um, if I'm in a depressive episode and that is like the one thing that I can bring myself to do every day, that is a net positive to laying in bed completely. And then as soon as you start being able to take a warm shower because you know that that's good and you know how it feels, then what's the next thing that I know feels good? Well, I I love lying in my bed, but I also feel productive when I'm reading, right? So having my book next to my nightstand, I take a hot shower and then I open my book, and then at least I'm doing something. And it's like building those things back so that you can slowly nurse yourself back to health. And then building community, I think was this is such a tall ask, and I hope that it's helpful for people who struggle because I didn't feel like I had community, and so I very much took a build it and they will come approach. Like when I, when I first got sober, I I was so terrified of people and I felt like I didn't connect with anybody. So what I started to do was I would make these flyers on Canva and I'd send them to people and be like, hey, a ton of us are going bowling on Friday. And the the ton of us was just me and whoever else that I prayed showed up, you know? And and that turned into now almost on a monthly basis, I have my my queer recovery circle, and we all come together and it's like 20 queers in a house, and it's like the most joyful thing and people teaching each other how to be friends and how to be social. Um, and I think as someone that's very self-conscious and and has kind of taken that approach of building my own community, the community that I want to see, and just putting it out there, seeing what happens. What can be really helpful for me is thinking about doing it for other people and giving other people a community, even if I can't do it for myself, you know?

Netanya 48:52

Yeah, I love that. And one of my experiences for that, like I was not, I'm not a social butterfly, which is surprising to some people. But when it's like someone that I already know or a group that I'm already in, I'm very social. I just I'm not the person to walk into a giant conference center of people that I don't know. I'm not excited to do that. But I started to like get okay with being a person that does things like that. I got okay with being the new kid. Right. And I quite literally mean I have moved states where I didn't know people twice now.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

And, you know. I can't believe how you did that, by the way. That is the most terrifying thing in the world to me. And I respect you so much for picking up and moving to a new state like that.

Netanya 49:36

Thank you. Um but it's it part of it was what I just said is like I just started to find things that were happening and going to them, right? Things are things are happening. And even in it's harder in small towns, like where I'm from originally is a very small town. There's not like even when I lived in Colorado, is there's more going on in that small town than there is the small town that I'm from. But just finding things or even online communities where people have an online workshop or an online, you know, I mean, other places and showing up for video calls, putting your video on, just even things like that where how do you how to let yourself be seen to know that it's safe to do so. But you kind of have to like put one foot in front of the other and practice walking through the door, like just to get in the room. And that that's been a thing for me. I can remember being new in recovery and I hadn't gone to a meeting and I sat in my car outside and I got to the parking lot and sat in the car and didn't go in. And then that was my first time, but like gotten in the car and got all the way there. And then the next time I went, I was like, I just have to walk in the door. And I did, right? And and like once I once you I swear to God, the fear of the thing is bigger than the thing itself. Every time. Every time. Yep. So I just I became a person that got comfortable being uncomfortable in all those spaces. And it's made me so much better to the point where now I am comfortable doing that and walking into a a new space is no big deal. Hi, I'm Natanya. And I just start talking to people and sort of giving yourself permission, like, I'll go first. I sort of made that made that a thing. Like, I'll go first, I can talk about this. And then it allows me to release whatever I'm holding, and then the room like lands, and then people will start being like me too. And then and then you're in a you're in a co-creative conversation, which is really beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

Absolutely. And I think that that's such a great like anecdote, you know, like that that uh that that bit of just like moving your feet forward and taking those small steps. Um, I forget the exact phrase you used, but I think for me, a a similar thing that I've fallen back on is like do it scared, you know. Um I am a very fearful person, just by nature. And yeah, do it scared has like gotten me in that door so many times. Or, you know, do it depressed, do it sick, do like, well, not sick sick, of course. I would never do that as a perfectionist, just show up regardless of how I'm feeling because I felt like I had to. But yeah, that like do it scared has helped so much. And I, yeah, I used to live in a rural community in Kansas too. That's where I did high school. And virtual services, virtual community can be so helpful. That's such a big thing for like queer kids too, who are in rural areas. The people that you're relating to are not around, or if they are, they're also hiding in their room on the computer a lot of the time. And I found social media in particular to be really effective. And uh, maybe that's the Gen Z in me, but yeah, for organizing, because I am a big organizer, I I I love community, it's it's my thing. Like just putting something on Facebook and being like, hey, if I plan this event, would anyone want to come? I'm like in all of the local social groups. I live in Loveland, so I'm in the Lovelanders page. I I'm in the Denver pages and like just shouting out to community will get you so far nowadays because I think we're all very, well, this is maybe an overgeneralization, but I think generally speaking, there are a lot of people who are connection starved and who are in that same position of like, I don't know how to make friends, I don't know how to build a community. Tell me how to do that and I'll come. You know, there's such a hunger for that.

Netanya 53:37

Yeah. There's this TED talk somewhere, and I don't know who is speaking in it, but I remember the line, which is that the opposite of addiction isn't sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection. And I nothing has ever landed so much with me that I felt like as a as again, a self-isolator and I'm very comfortable with all those things like I had to work against to get to the fact that I need community and community needs me. And that's a mutual, mutually beneficial relationship. But the more I got okay with using my voice and being seen and being in those places, um, the more I got out of it. The more I gave to it, the more I got out of it.

The Intersection of Identity in Recovery

SPEAKER_01 54:19

That's such a good point. And I love that anecdote about connection being the opposite of addiction. Um, because I I very, very much resonated with that. And and going back to like the eating disorder stuff, just because I feel like a substance use pro, that's like the world where I like live for so long professionally and and just the place that I've done the most work on. And I don't quite feel as like intellectually educated about dealing with my own stuff in that world. But I will say, like when I've struggled in the past, eating with friends and hanging out with them afterwards is 100% the biggest way, just like forcing myself to show up and letting community do the rest for me has 100% been the most effective tool that I have to get past those, those like, you know, periods of time where I'm really struggling with my behaviors. And even when I can't tell them what's going on, even when I can't tell them what it is that I'm struggling with internally, just like being around other people and letting them get me out of it has been so, so impactful and so important for me, you know?

Netanya 55:35

Um, I you've touched on this a couple of times, and I want to ask you, what is it like for you being queer and Hispanic in recovery?

SPEAKER_01 55:46

Yeah, I think I think the key there is maybe in Fort Collins or in the Fort Collins area because it is, it does lean a little bit um Caucasian, maybe. Um I've struggled a lot, honestly. I I think, you know, one thing that I struggled with for a long time is something that people say to you a lot in AA is to focus on the similarities rather than the differences. And I think generally speaking, that can be very true and very useful and very helpful. But it used to make me so upset because I was having very different experiences in the rooms as a queer woman of color. I was having very different experiences than my peers and tangibly facing consequences because of who I was and because I was different than the people that were telling me to focus on the similarities rather than the differences. So I think that that has been one of the places where I had to take what worked and then create pieces in my recovery that that worked for me. Because I think as a queer person and as a woman of color, and you know, to some extent, people of all kinds of different identities, you know, like you are operating in a system that was built for people who are not like you. AA is very much built for alcoholics, but there's also a lot of parts of it that are not really super helpful for women or for queer people that I've worked with because like I think of some of the external things. I I think of like the resentment inventory, the inventory in general, and and taking like a really critical sometimes view of your life. And I think that that's something that like queer people have a lot of language, a lot of familiarity with. We are well aware a lot of the times what is wrong with us where we need support is being built back up. But for like a white dude in the 60s that has like destroyed his own family and really took him a while to see why that's a bad thing, yeah, he probably needed to be knocked down a peg, you know? Um, and I think like I've had to learn, and I I think that's part of why I still keep coming to AA, even though I've had a harder time at at various points in time, is because I I want to be able to help people walk through that nuance and figure out how to make it work for them too, and how to see themselves in it enough to have community in AA and to be able to walk into, you know, I I've taken I've gone to meetings in like really rural Wisconsin and small towns in Texas. And like I can still feel a part of in a room of like evangelical AA people who I cannot reliably say that my higher power is not God around. You know what I mean? I can still very much feel a part of in those places because I've been able to like acknowledge and do the work with myself and and with a sponsor who has more in common with me and has marginalized identities doing that work around like, no, you are different. And and you do have to navigate the world differently and you have to navigate the steps a little bit differently. Um and you still have spiritual principles that you need to live by. And, you know, it's still about love and tolerance. So yeah, it's been interesting though. It has been a pain point for sure at at different times.

Netanya 59:15

What is what are the things that that could help you with the most or support you in the most from the from the seat that I'm in?

SPEAKER_01 59:27

I think, you know, I I think the the nice thing is that the the solution to making people feel accepted isn't any different than what we're supposed to be doing in AA, right? It's like walking up to people who are different, even if they're not newcomers, and just treating them the same way you would anybody else of like, hi, my name is Natanya. Like, here's my phone number. Like, call me if you need anything. We should go get coffee. Because I think a lot of the times I walk into spaces and take an inventory of who's there and who's probably safe. And, you know, what really helps me feel comfortable is when the when people walk up to me and show me that they're safe, you know, instead of me kind of like doing that all in my head. Um, because then I have an ally in the room and I know if like stuff happens or if someone says something crazy, like at least I can look at that other person that I'm with and that has shown me that they're a safe person and be like, that was crazy, right? Instead of me sitting there and feeling that like visceral fear and feeling of being unsafe, you know, it can go a long way.

Netanya 1:00:32

Is there anything else you want to share that we didn't already touch on?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

You know, I think for me, something that has really resonated is for me, service is a big thing. 12-step is a big thing. It has been since I first got sober. And and I think something that I'm really, really coming to terms with and like fully understanding right now is the extent to which, you know, you really don't have to be well or perfect or in a good place to help somebody else. I need that service. I need that ability to help other people, especially when I'm struggling. And for the longest time I thought that I could only help people if I was in a good position myself. Otherwise, I would be causing harm. And that's just not true. I was talking with a sponsee today about how when I share in therapy groups or to clients, or I'm not a licensed therapist. So when I'm sharing to clients, it's in a pure capacity. I should clarify that. Or in a 12-star meeting. Yeah. I've gotten way more feedback after the meeting and have people come up to me and say thank you. When I am like disgustingly vulnerable than when I'm just sharing this straightforward like experience, strength, and hope, advice, you know, whatever. It it's so much more meaningful to people when I'm sharing the bad. Um and and that's true, even if I'm in a mentorship role, even maybe especially, and I think we could all use a little more of that, a little bit more of that, like sharing where we're really at, you know. All right, last question.

unknown 1:02:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

Ready?

Netanya 1:02:15

Yes. Um, what would you what's something that you hope that listeners give themselves permission to do after listening to this episode?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

Give yourself permission to be in as much therapy as you need to be, even if it makes you feel insane. And also maybe just like something that I struggle with and that I need to hear all the time is like allow yourself to be human. That includes being mad, that includes yelling at people sometimes, that includes being messy and weird and awkward, but like just let yourself be human for uh a little bit. Um so yeah.

Netanya 1:03:01

All right. Well, thank you, Isabel. Thank you for being here and for your time. I appreciate it greatly. Of course. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to NataniAlison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.