EP34: Pattern Withdrawal | Choosing Connection Over the Isolationship Bunker with Joe Singer

What happens when your "independence" starts to look more like a bunker? 
 
This week, we’re pulling back the curtain on the "squirrely" reality of growth, the weight of carrying grief for others, and why choosing a life of recovery often means trading comfortable solitude for messy, vulnerable connection.

In this candid conversation, we explore the concept of "Pattern Withdrawal"—that restless, uncomfortable detox our brains go through when we finally stop going down the same old rabbit holes. We discuss the mechanics of our deepest habits, the power of making a choice to get stagnant energy moving, and what it takes to build a life that actually feels like your own.

We dive into that uncomfortable space between protecting your heart and living fully, pulling the threads on:

• "Isolation-ships" vs. True Solitude: Recognizing when your independence has become a defense mechanism and learning how to let people in without losing yourself.
• The Reality of Pattern Withdrawal: Why breaking old habits feels like a physical detox—and why that "squirrely," restless feeling is actually a sign of neuroplasticity in action.
• The Shift to Self-Validation: Moving away from the "good boy" praise of childhood to a place where your primary reward is simply knowing you stayed in integrity—and that you didn't do "bodily harm with your mouth"—today.

Whether you’re navigating the stages of grief, questioning the parameters of your program, or simply deciding which direction to move next, this episode is a reminder that the most meaningful lives are the ones where we dare to stay present—even when it’s uncomfortable.

Full episode and show notes: netanyaallyson.com/episodes/34

Transcript

Reflections on Grief and Vulnerability

Netanya 0:00

I'm a moment to like that's what I'm talking about. I'm traveling a sprint portrait. This podcast is about those moments. It's about the twin points that change up. The things I wish someone had told me that I only understand and look at. Come on in, you belong here, and we're going to talk about all of it. I'm your host Natanya, and this is what I didn't know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Joe Singer, and this episode is a little different than usual because it wasn't meant to be a podcast episode. Joe and I were hopping on a call to catch up a few weeks ago, and he said, hit record, there may be something good here. So I did, and he was right. We get into the concept of pattern withdrawal and why breaking old habits feels like a physical detox, self-validation and trading gold stars from others for the deeper reward of self-respect and knowing you stayed in integrity. And we talk about isolationships versus solitude, moving from the independent spunker to a life where you can let people in without losing yourself. Because we begin in the middle of a conversation, for context, we were discussing the uncomfortableness I was feeling inside having a friend relapse, keeping boundaries, and breaking my own pattern and how I was choosing to respond to that. Here we go. So that was fun. But I was just thinking about like while I was cooking and stuff today, like you could be in a ditch somewhere, you know? And like I can't I was just thinking bigger of the part of the choice to be in this community for me. Like you can just be in here for your own recovery, and many people do that, and that's great. I chose to live this life and to give to build a life out of this, and to choose to use my life as a form of a lighthouse. That is usually my intention. And that moves different ways. Sometimes that means your job's in recovery. Sometimes it just means you do service work or volunteer stuff or, you know, all the other ways that you can you can do that. And but part of the just side effect consequence. Like a consequence is kind of a negative word, but just a side effect of the choice that I made to do that means that I know a lot of people that don't make it. And it's hard when it's it's been fucking with my head a little bit because it's hard when it's someone you care about. And whether that's a sponsee, there's a couple like really young humans that are semi-new that I just adore that would rip me apart if something happened with them and it might. There's friends, people that are peers, or people that I would call and lean on that I care about. There's the sponsey sponsor relationship. There's just people you know at meetings, but just the different levels of choosing to walk this road and be in it more means I'm more vulnerable and I have to practice that dance of like, where do I have boundaries around this? Where do I care? Where do I let people in? Where do I try to support? Where do I have to step back? And I've been in that a lot this week.

Joe 3:52

And when do you quit jumping up and trying to grab their string and pull them back down? Sometimes you just gotta let that, you just gotta let the the balloon and the string go and just enjoy it from where you are.

Netanya 4:05

Yep.

Joe 4:05

You know, and let it be somebody else's beauty.

Netanya 4:08

And it doesn't, even if you choose that route, like it still hurts. And getting okay with the spectrum of emotion. And I wrote a little bit of the the stages of grief this week in more than one way. And like I learned about when I first had an actual experience where I understood that I was inside the stages of grief was when I got divorced. And it was, it was actually my ex-husband who was he was in them, and I had already processed thoughts. I was watching him go through them. And I learned that they don't go in order. They, there's not like a you can go back and forth and you might ping pong between a couple for a while. There's no time limit on how long you can be there. Um and before that, like the younger, you know, college kid version of me that just reads about it in a book is like, oh, this is stage one, this is two, oh, and you're done. And it's like not how that works. But just letting that be okay, you know, with friends this week. And also like, it's hard because it's like I give a shit. I care about people. And I have in the past, you know, something else I'm working on personally is letting people in and be more open and vulnerable. And as I'm doing that, shit like this happens, and it's like, don't take that to mean you shouldn't let people in. No, you know, but it's it's messy.

Joe 5:38

And and you get, even if you don't mean to, you get more callous against letting people in. It's like, see, that's exactly why right there that I don't let motherfuckers in. You know? Same thing with when I was telling you about my dog died. I didn't want a dog. And I was like, all right, go get a dog if it'll make you happy. And that turned out I love this dog. And I went from the guy that didn't want a dog to the guy that now I can't have enough. So, and then when that dog died, I was like, see, this is exactly why I didn't want another dog.

SPEAKER_03 6:11

Yeah.

Joe 6:11

But that dog taught me how to love again, I didn't know it. And I didn't realize that I had that still in me. I still had that little kid wanting wanting that reciprocation from just a dog, you know?

SPEAKER_03 6:27

Yeah.

Joe 6:28

And it but and I've seen so much death in my career that I did, I got I got to that point where I was like, that shit don't bother me no more. And that was the biggest lie I ever told myself. Every bit of it bothers you. You just keep shoving it in this little box until the box can't hold it anymore, you know. But I heard something I don't know, it was probably about six months ago. I don't even know who said it, but it said, You can you can remember the way people lived or the way people died. Not both. And I'm like, I'm gonna hang on to that because I want to remember how Natanya lived her life or or how I d I didn't know Chad's mom, but I wanted I want to remember the joy that he had through his stories, not how she died. And and it's sad that the only the only time I really got to know her is through her sickness and then death. Because we kind of keep our families away from each other.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Right, right. That makes sense. I think I you you got me.

Netanya 7:48

Something you said hit me because I'm a little bit emotional apparently. Um I've been working on that, on being open specifically with men and not necessarily romantic, but I just like stiff armed real hard and keep people at a distance because then because then I can't get hurt. It's not a risk, I'm not vulnerable, and I won't self-abandon like I used to. So let's just keep people out because then I don't have to do any of that, and I'm good, and then I just large forward and I I I recognize that earlier this year and was practicing that space. And then when shit like this happens, it's hard because it challenges the fact that I was open.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

And I also like part of who I want to be is to say that that's okay. That's okay.

Balancing Solitude and Social Interaction

Netanya 8:41

But it's it's like a it's just a sensitive space of like that's what I said yes to when I chose this version of this life. When I when I came back to life and I said, I'm gonna do this, this is how I want to live. That means being in all these spaces like this, which means, you know, when someone calls me out, I'm isolating and they're not wrong. And then I look at that and say, okay, I'm gonna do something about that. And then I do that, and one of the people that I was doing that with, that didn't go very well for them, which is not mine. And there's many things about that that were not mine, but also that doesn't mean I have to shut down. That doesn't mean I was wrong to work on stuff for myself.

Joe 9:31

Do you tell yourself that you weren't isolate and you were it was just healthy solitude?

Netanya 9:37

In the past I have, yeah. And I'm very comfortable being alone, genuinely. Um and so I have to, it's one of the biggest things I have to check myself on because I really do I get drained by people a lot. If I'm ever with work and stuff, I come home and I'm I'm I've ex you know, expended so much energy that I need that to recalibrate to come back in so I can give again. And that's true. And the shadow side of that is when it's too far, too long, when I become a hermit, when I isolate, when it's, you know, the blinds are down and all that, and it's like, okay, you've been we've been here. It's too dark in the house.

Joe 10:16

And you're under that cover.

Netanya 10:17

Yeah.

Joe 10:18

You're like, oh, I feel so good. I love it.

Netanya 10:21

Yeah.

Joe 10:22

It's like, yeah, but the you're not answering your phone, and people are worried.

Netanya 10:27

Yep.

Joe 10:27

I I know I'm okay. Guilty. I do it a lot.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Yeah.

Joe 10:36

I love being alone too. I love it. I saw a thing the other day that says that it was uh I wish I I was gonna say I seen it yesterday and I was gonna try to save it and I forgot. I forget a lot. I do. And I was up there talking Thursday night after you left and just I said, Well, there it is, ladies and gentlemen. And everybody was like, What? I said, It's gone. I was leading up to this big reveal and I had no idea where I was going with this. I said, you know, you hear about the the the trains off the tracks. I said, uh, we just this train just turned right onto an asphalt top road. We're not close to the tracks anymore. I just I love being alone and I love being I don't know, I it's a trust thing.

SPEAKER_03 11:30

Mm-hmm.

Joe 11:31

You know, it's like I don't want to l the less people know about me, the better off everybody is. Which I don't know if there's truth today or not, but it's not helping anybody else. It's your service work when I sit and do nothing. I mean, I'm doing plenty for my own, but I'm not sharing, you know?

Netanya 11:53

Well, and that's so that's something that I was I was doing a podcast episode with a different friend the other day, and she after we hung up, we were talking about something, like after we stopped recording, and she said something about I was talking about what I'm practicing, and I'm like, this is uncomfortable for me, all the things I just said to you, right? And I was like, I'm I'm working on it. And she said, you know, when you're the kind of person that holds a lot of space for other people, and when you coach and when you talk to people, that's how you live your life, which is what I do. She said, It's often like that doesn't mean you're being vulnerable. That doesn't mean you're sharing your own stuff. And I forget that regularly because I spend so much time. I'll sit with somebody in the corner of a room and work something out, or you know, someone will give me four different things that are going wrong in their life and I'll pull the threads on them and distill it and be like, here, this is your problem. Right. It's all the same thing. You think it's different, it's not. It's this all one core theme. And I forget that just because I spend a lot of time in spaces like that doesn't mean I'm doesn't mean I'm open to my own stuff. I was like, fuck, why did you have to point that out?

Joe 13:09

Yeah, it's like you're both on a two-way street, but you're kind of walking backwards as they're going forward. Yeah. You're walking them along, and you never go forward on your lane.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

Yeah.

Joe 13:19

You know, and if you do, you go up to get the next one and you're walking back again. So you never pass this one spot where you pick up the next one when you're walking back. So it's like, yeah, we can do anything we want here because she ain't never gonna go forward on this side of the street. We can drag race on it, you know.

Netanya 13:37

Well, and that, and then the other friend that I had talked to earlier in the year that so lovingly pointed out that I did this. Um, he called it, he was he was saying something. He's like, you know, people are in like situationships. And I was like, Yeah, and he's like, You're not in a situation ship, you're in an isolationship. And I was like, because he was right. And it was like that was when I decided to look at it and start practicing it. And then, and I have been, and it's messy. And then when she said that the other day, I was like, it is, it's I misconstrue because I do spend like emotional intimacy. I spend time with people in that space does not mean I am sharing or being open or letting people in.

Joe 14:28

Yeah, that is that is messy, and it's it's it's where I want to say, fuck all y'all. I'm doing fine. You know, and it's what you have people that tell you that, and you take it like you take it as constructive criticism, and you you're wanting to learn from it, and here I am just like, fuck y'all. You just need to go on somewhere because I don't want you around me, you know, and that's what and that's the way I was. I just turn into a dry drunk again if I let it. It's like I'd run them all off. I don't want to hear your bullshit, but I need to hear it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Yeah.

Joe 15:07

I just don't want to.

Navigating Integrity and Emotional Truths

Netanya 15:10

Well, I was pissed when he first said that, I was like, fuck off. And then, you know, the conversation ended, and I was like, motherfucker, like I can't ignore it because there's truth in it. I might not like it, but it's like when when stuff drops in, like I call it the bag of rocks, right? We all carry around the bag of rocks. I've done a lot of work to lighten that load. But when a rock goes back in there, damn if I don't know it right away. And I can't ignore it. Like I I chose to to be in integrity with myself. That was a commitment that I made. And that means for me, going and looking at the thing that I know has truth in it. And it's been messy.

Joe 15:57

Then the next thing you know, you're on the phone saying, I owe you in a man. Motherfucker. Oh. Because you give me a resentment, and I allowed you to give me one.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

Yeah.

Joe 16:12

And I needed it. It is, that's the tough things in recovery. You know, you I don't want to feel that. Well, you don't you don't want to do a lot of things, but you really need to feel it. You know I didn't sign up for that shit. Yes, you did. Remember you signed up for this. I did. And I gotta tell my every time my sponsor tells me shit like that, I gotta you know that that I gotta remember there's a pause between the feeling and the reaction. I've got this ism. It's undiagnosed, it just flies right out of my mouth in defense.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

When I'm I can't I can't unsee it once I've seen it.

Netanya 17:12

And that's a big pain. Cause it's like you can't f because before before he said the word isolationship, I was good.

Joe 17:24

As a matter of fact, you were perfect.

Netanya 17:27

And you know, there's a lot of the parts of independence or being good with being alone and and taking care of yourself that are good, right? There's not that's not a bad thing. But and also where have I lied to myself about still using that as a defense mechanism to not feel pain and not let people in?

Joe 17:51

Yeah, or a filter. You know, it's like, okay, well let just a little bit of that guy in.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Yeah.

Joe 17:58

You said uh oh, what was it? You said uh you couldn't unsee it?

Netanya 18:04

Yeah.

Joe 18:05

When I when I get something that I can't unsee, I've labeled it. I call it naked grandma. Think about it, it's like, oh my God, you can't unsee that. When you see something that you can't unsee, that's naked grandma. Not my grandma, just a naked old person, you know.

Netanya 18:27

Well, and then the other part is that, like, yes, we're talking about looking at the stuff that's hard. But also, if you look forward, like the life I want for myself doesn't involve me being in solitude, a hermit in a basement.

unknown 18:44

Right.

Netanya 18:44

And if I want to let that in again and to build a partnership with somebody in an actual role, like romantic relationship, I gotta start practicing just letting men in in general. And and part of that, um, you know, I said in a meeting not that long ago, uh, I think it was Chad celebration. I was talking about Chad. And I just said, you register in my body as safe. And that's new for me. And when I say safe, I'm talking mental and emotional safety, not physical safety. Um, but when I've had, when you've had men in the past over decades that were not necessarily safe or stable or had any articulation capacity or emotional intelligence or didn't know what to do with anything, and you grow up in this like pinball machine of people who don't know how to handle that, many of them being men, to practice being around men who I register as safe and talking to them and being open with them and doing things like having conversations like this is moving me in the direction I want to go in.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

And that's good. But it's not comfortable.

Joe 20:01

And then somebody and you get close enough and you feel like I almost got burned, and then you start letting off the gas, and we're like, well. But I I did pick up, you said consequences. No, that's a negative term. And you know, and it is. It we never use the word negative consequence or positive consequence.

SPEAKER_02 20:28

Yes.

Consequences: Positive and Negative Perspectives

Joe 20:28

We always use consequences bad. And I like to label it what it is. It was it was a negative consequence or a positive consequence. Because I've had much, many more positive consequences than I have negative lately. And I like to talk about positive consequences because my relationship I have with you is a positive consequence that we both went out on a limb and says, I'm gonna let this guy in, and you I'm gonna let this girl in. And we we it was a good thing for both of us, you know. Uh but it was not just a consequence, it was a positive consequence. And you did it and I still do it sometimes. It's like, oh, that's a consequence. It's like it's a dirty word. But it shouldn't be. We should we should just give it what do you call it, an adjective in front of the consequence.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Yeah.

Joe 21:24

It it should be called a positive or negative consequence. It's a good consequence or a bad one. But we do we do make that word ugly in recovery.

The Importance of Making Choices

Netanya 21:36

Well, and I mean, think of any choice that you make, any choice about anything, it has a cause and effect. And that's really it's the effect part that we are labeling a consequence. It's a it's a a reaction to whatever the choices that you make, uh you know, the effect of the thing that you caused. And so even if it's, you know, um I I many years ago, my nephew moved to Texas to try to go to college. He was trying to figure out what he was doing. He had been in college in Wisconsin and he chose to go down there and see if that was gonna work for him. And I remember talking to him on the phone before he went because it was new and I he didn't know if he was gonna like it. And I was like, I don't know either. And but I know that like two things will happen. You will change and you will learn something. And that's not good or bad. And he he did both of those things in different directions, and he decided that he didn't like college in Texas and came back here. But it's just like we do that where we make it a bad thing. And it's like learning something, it's the it's the beauty of contrast of anything, any choice that you make. That's why I'm such an advocate for choosing and making choices, because so many people will stay for years in stagnation and not move and not make a choice. And energy doesn't move in a space like that, you just sit there. But if you choose something in any direction, you move things and you get a different perspective or a different vantage point. And it may not be the one you like, but you learn, like, oh, I didn't like that. Right. And then from there, you make a different informed choice to move forward in a different direction. And you keep doing that. It's like like tree branches that keep splitting off as you as you make choices every time you go. When you sit there and don't make a choice about something, even not making a choice is still a choice.

Joe 23:38

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it could still affect the change. Doing nothing. It'll cause somebody else to change. You're not gonna do something, I will.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Yeah. But it's the beauty of living fully. Even if you quote make the wrong choice, like you can't fuck it up. Because you're gonna learn something either way.

Joe 24:14

Making a bad decision sometimes is better than being content.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Hmm. I like that. Can you say that again?

Joe 24:24

Making a bad decision is sometimes better than being content. She was like, Are you happily married? I said, Nope, I'm just content. She said, Me too. And me and her both wanted something better, so we both made a decision to divorce and get remarried. Because we didn't want to be content anymore, you know. Content is just it's it's it reminds me of the slow suicide I was doing with addiction. You know, it was just like the same shit day in, day out. Nothing to look forward to. Nothing that makes you joyous, happy, and free again. And being content is is like being in active addiction. It sucks in a relationship. If we're not gonna grow, I'm gonna go. This sucks.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

And it's starting to feel that way again.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

You know, it's kinda like what do you do with that?

Joe 25:40

I do I do tell it in you know, I I am able to talk to my guys in my meetings.

SPEAKER_03 25:46

Mm-hmm.

Joe 25:47

Um it's like the other night, she night before last we were. She was on that line and she went to let the dog out. I've got this runner for the dog, you know, you gotta reach outside and pull the cable in, hook it to your collar, and let her go. She'd go two hundred yards, two hundred feet. Well, there's a dead deer in down by the road and there's buzzers everywhere doing their thing. And she's trying to get to it. And she didn't have to rip on her collar because she'd been drinking. And she skipped out and ran into the street. And she's getting mad at the dogs. Dogs do what dogs do. They bark, you know, they run. So I went out and whistled, the dog came back, and she's mad. And I said, Well, you can't blame her, she's a dog. That's what she do. That's what she does. I said, You're gonna have to get a better grip. She said, I had a good grip. I said, no, if you had a good grip, she wouldn't have got away from you. I said, Maybe you ought to not drink so much. And I went to my room and I let her settle that. So I said, No, you know, don't get mad at her. She's a dog, that's what she does. Be mad at yourself. You aren't ready, she was. But you know, it's just it's little things like that that just it taps my ass. But I've been where she's at, I know what she's going through, and the last thing she needed me to say was what I said. But I said it out of love, I didn't say it out of anger. It was the truth. And you know, if you don't blame somebody, blame yourself because you put yourself in that position of not being ready.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

How did she respond when you said that?

SPEAKER_03 27:39

Silence. Which was a lot better than it used to be. A fuck you. Or here we go with that again.

Joe 27:50

It does keep it interesting, I'll give it that.

SPEAKER_03 27:53

Mm-hmm.

Joe 27:55

And I love seeing that the monster that I created come out in her sometimes. She'll get pissed off at the TV. At the Republicans or the Democrats or whatever's going on, and I'm like, well, what do you want me to do about it? She wanted me to jump on board and cuss with her. And I I just I that's part of me that I just don't deal with anymore. I don't fuck with shit that I can't control. I taught the guys that the other day.

SPEAKER_03 28:25

Not my problem.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Yeah.

Joe 28:30

Skip it though, not my problem, sure. Nothing I can do about it. Can't fix it, can't change it. I didn't cause it. Shrug it off.

Netanya 28:38

Well, and there's there's that stuff, because I have that a similar aspect of things like that, where I'm just like, I can't, you know, but and also where I try to say, like, not my problem, but I care. Right. So I don't I don't particularly care about politics. So that doesn't do much for me. But trying to all the work you do, all the work that happens in spaces and places of any kind of recovery, but like where you say, not my problem, not from a place of fuck off, but from a place of like I can't carry that for you. It's not mine. And I care about you and I, you know, hope you make I hope you make good choices.

Joe 29:24

Or it's it's I choose not to carry that for you. It's more of, you know, you bring me something that I'll co-sign. I'll carry some shit if it makes sense. If we can do something about it, then I'll help you. But if it's just what I call eye wars, then we need to leave it alone. Total propaganda for people.

Netanya 29:51

If you carry something for someone like in that situation, at what point do you give it back to them?

SPEAKER_02 30:00

I don't know.

Joe 30:01

I I think I I think I have a uh I'll only carry it until I go to sleep, then I'm done. I mean, I I'm gonna tell 'em that I'm carrying it, and I'm not gonna tell them that I'm not carrying it anymore. But I for me, I let it go when I when I go to sleep at night, I let it go. Uh I'm not gonna wake up carrying anybody's crap. But I'm gonna let you think that I'm still toting it. That's all that matters, it's the perception that I leave you with, you know. But I've gotta keep living, so I'm not gonna tot it long. I've gotta keep going, and I can't keep toting. But I'll help you carry it. If you land on me again after a week, then I'll help you carry it again. You know, but I'm not gonna make it my b my priority. You know, since my priority is my recovery. I may only give you fifteen minutes, but at least I give you that. And the old me wouldn't not have I'll I'll I'll make you have to carry some shit and I ain't gonna help you. And I know I ain't going back there again.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Mm-hmm.

Joe 31:19

I'll lie to you for your love, and that's the truth. It's a Bellamy's brothers song.

SPEAKER_02 31:25

Is it? Yeah. Sounds good.

Joe 31:30

You're not even listening to Bellamy Brothers.

Netanya 31:32

No, I don't know who that is.

Joe 31:34

I'd lie to you for your love. I'm a doctor, I'm a lawyer, I'm a movie star, I'm an astronaut, and I own this bar. I'd lie to you for your love, and that's the truth. You you probably ought to hear that.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

That's a good I'll look it up.

Naming Emotions and Finding Clarity

Netanya 31:52

How do you know when you need when you need help carrying something or when you need to carry something along?

Joe 32:00

When I need to say it out loud.

Netanya 32:03

Mm-hmm.

Joe 32:04

That's one thing that I I use often. If I'm telling you something about something, it's because I need help toting it.

Netanya 32:13

Yeah. That is a great example, or that was a great answer. And I have felt that this week. I have talked more about things. And just like I I don't need you to do anything with it. I just need to talk about it.

Joe 32:28

Yeah.

Netanya 32:28

So that I'm getting it out of me.

Joe 32:32

Yeah. You said it on text to me just well yesterday. I was like, hell yeah, that's how we do it. Saying it out loud.

Netanya 32:41

Yep.

Joe 32:42

You know, it it it it lets you take that little pricing gun and go, I'll just put a label on it. You know?

Breaking Patterns and Embracing Change

Netanya 32:50

Yes. I'm such a big proponent of naming things. Um, like such a big proponent because I realized when I started to give things names or to vocalize them out loud, it lightened the load. It brought me relief. And um, I was actually talking about this last night in a meeting. But I when I first went to therapy when I was married, um, the therapist said to me after my first session, she was like, Do you know what codependency is? And I said, No. And she said, Okay. And she gave me, she like, she's like, let me print out some stuff for you. And she scanned a workbook and a bunch of stuff. And I went home and read it. And I was mind-blown because I had never had language for all the shit that was happening in my head. And she gave me a name. And then I went and she gave me a book to go read. And in the third chapter of the book, there was something like a hundred things that you might think, say, do, or feel if you're codependent. And I had 93 of them. And I was like, I was so like, you can be mad about that. And I was just so relieved because I was like, I'm not fucking crazy. There's a name for this. People, other people have experienced this, people have written books on this. Like, okay, let's go work on that. But yesterday, um, I was talking about how I've been feeling all week. And the thing I've been feeling is kind of squirrely. And I was like, what is wrong with me? I was very clear on everything that happened. I was very clear on how I've handled everything. All of that I have I did beautifully to the best of my ability. I wouldn't have changed any. I'm not sorry about it. Yes, it's an uncomfortable scenario and I have emotion around it, but I've worked through that. Great. So why am I sort of restless? And so I went online because that's where the truth is, obviously. And I started looking up, like I was just putting in there what I'm feeling and to sort of try to find because AI will do that now. Like it'll pull things. And um, I was looking for what is this that I'm feeling, and I can't find a name for it. And it came back with this concept that I was mind blown and I was like, I don't have any idea if this is true or not, but it feels true in the moment. And it was pattern withdrawal. It was that if you are, if I have functioned in a pattern for a certain number of time and I change the pattern and I'm uncomfortable in the space of changing the pattern, that I'm actually feeling squirrely and like the withdrawal of going down the same rabbit hole that I always used to go down. Cause I was so confused because I'm like, I everything is good for me. Why am I so uncomfortable? And I was like, but if you think of um, I always use the example of a mountain and like a like a stream going down the mountain, that the stream over years builds a groove into the side of the mountain because it just runs into that same groove, which is what neuropathways do in your brain of habits and patterns and beliefs and all the things that we carry. And to break patterns, which many of us work on in recovery, it's like trying to get the stream to go down a different part of the mountain that there's not a groove in yet. It's uncomfortable. It takes a minute to like get it to go in that direction. And you have to keep repeating it and practicing it before the groove starts to set in. And so, in that in-between process, I have not built that full pattern yet, but I'm in the process of doing that. And I'm clearly not going down the same road that I would have before. Um, I'm uncomfortable. And it was, but to have a name for it, like I said, I'm big on naming things, like, oh, pattern withdrawal makes perfect sense in my brain for what I'm sitting in.

Joe 36:52

Yeah. It it made complete sense. When you said it, I was like, that makes sense because that means we're no longer comfortable. But I'm gonna tell you how my brain works. When you were talking about that stream going down and digging the groove, the whole time I'm thinking, where's that water coming from?

SPEAKER_02 37:13

Oh.

Joe 37:16

That's exactly where I went when you uh now I was with you. I was with your story the whole time. But where does all that water come from on top of that hill? Where's it coming from? How did it get up there?

SPEAKER_02 37:30

How did the water get up there to come now? What do you think? I don't.

Joe 37:39

I'm asking I'm asking for help. There's no pond up there.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

No.

Joe 37:45

If there was a pond up there, it'd make a little more sense, you know, if the rain filled it up. It's just one of those things. It's like Niagara Falls. That's a lot of water goes over that falls. Where did where's the source of that water come from?

Netanya 38:00

Well, and are you asking literally about water or are you asking about the metaphorical concept of bathroom?

Joe 38:06

I just always want to know how it got up there. Nobody can ever explain how it got up.

Netanya 38:14

I don't know. I'm not your girl for the answer to that question.

Joe 38:18

I know. But I mean, that's you're you completely made a hundred percent sense, but that's just how my brain works. You're telling me that you've gotta figure out to pave a new groove. And the whole time you're trying to figure out to pave a new groove, I'm thinking, we're gonna run out of water. Yes. I'm gonna help you with your groove, but the time we get it grooved, it'll we'll be out of water.

Netanya 38:51

Well, and my brain goes to not the literal. My brain goes to the metaphorical of how did I get all the patterns and beliefs and habits.

Joe 39:00

And I share both at the same time.

Netanya 39:02

Yeah.

Joe 39:03

Life's rabbit holes.

Netanya 39:06

I love that though, because it demonstrates the differences. I forget frequently and I have to remember that my vantage point on life is one person's vantage point, colored by right, the lifetime of experiences that I've had, and that so many people have different vantage points, and they cause you to ask a different question than I might ask, which means I'm not always right, and I have much to learn.

Joe 39:38

Yes. I love that uh the the guys that are standing face to face, one of them's looking at a six, and the other sees it as a nine.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

What?

Joe 39:49

Oh the six is painted on the ground, and one of them's looking at it as a, you know, he just drew a six, and this guy, he's like, no, you drew a nine. Uh-huh. You know, we're both right. And they're both ready to die on that hill.

Netanya 40:03

Well, and how much has that, you know, wars have been started over that.

Joe 40:08

Oh, yeah. Just somebody's perception of what they thought.

The Nature of Belief and Conflict

Netanya 40:15

Yeah. And religion is based on things like that.

Joe 40:20

And I got a good one for you.

Netanya 40:24

Yeah.

Joe 40:25

When I first started here, Chad had this picture, somebody giving this picture of the earth.

SPEAKER_02 40:30

Uh-huh.

Joe 40:30

And it says humanity. Where we fight to the death on who has the best imaginary friend.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Oh. Dang.

Joe 40:47

And that when I first saw it, it pissed me off because I'm like, I know who God is. But it he is just an imaginary friend. And no matter whose Howard Power is correct or incorrect, he's still your imaginary friend. And wars have been fought, and we have rerouted rivers with bombs over who has the imaginary friend. The best one, the correct one.

Netanya 41:16

Well, and what you just said there, the correct one is like part of the underlying pulse of that problem is the need to be right. I need to be right about this. I'm right. This is my way or the highway. This is the right way to do this. This is the right way to recover. This is the right, you know, the need to be right, because then you get validated that you're right, which is about you.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

Yeah.

Netanya 41:39

Um, and I've had to work on letting go of the need to be right. I don't need to be right about this. I don't need to understand this. Yeah.

Joe 41:49

Wherever I end up after death, I hope that I get credit for trying.

SPEAKER_03 41:55

Yes.

Joe 41:56

Yes. I hope I get a participation trophy. It's like, well, he didn't have it right, but he was he was on the right track. Come on, we'll take you. Uh if somebody comes to me and says uh their higher power is their grandmother's rosebush outside her front door, I'm gonna help him water it. Because if he's got a higher power, he's correct. She's correct. It says find a higher power. It's just turn your what, your life and your will over to the higher power. Hey, if you've got that, then you're correct.

Letting Go of the Need to Be Right

Netanya 42:39

Yeah, but the implication in what you just said is that people that have not figured that out yet or choose to not have a higher power are incorrect.

Joe 42:48

Mm-hmm. Well, as far as the 12 steps, if they don't have one, then they're gonna be stuck for a while.

Netanya 42:56

But even that, that the 12 steps are right. And I'm not I'm not disagreeing that there's not so much good in all of those things. I'm just saying I have I have capacity in my life to hold space for people that may not have that experience. And to not need to make them wrong. And that's where, like, I mean, I have to practice that at work. I have to practice that in friendships. Like, I don't need to be right about this. I can let it be as it is, and or maybe I don't even understand it. I don't understand why he or she did this thing. And that's hard. I like to understand things in my brain.

Joe 43:34

Yeah. And and or why they omitted something from the entire program.

Netanya 43:40

Yes.

Joe 43:41

If it's working for you, you did right.

Netanya 43:44

Well, and it's why I I'm not always popular in the way I choose to live my life or do recovery because it goes outside the lines to an extent. I there's things that I add or remit based on what I what has worked for me. Cause sometimes I don't love certain languages, you know, things that have happened. There's several parts of the big book that I have problems with in terms of the languaging because it was written however many years ago. But I instead of being like, I'm not gonna do this program, I just very much adopt the take what resonates and leave the rest. And I take yours. Yes.

Joe 44:22

Yeah. Yeah. I I I struggle with that when I tell people I've never been to an in-person meeting.

Netanya 44:28

Yeah. Why? I mean, why do you struggle with it? Not why do you never go?

Joe 44:33

Because they they think that I'm doing a program that don't exist. You know, you're they they they like to tell me I'm doing it wrong.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Yeah.

Personal Recovery Paths and Freedom Within Recovery

Joe 44:44

You really need to go to an in-person meeting. Tell me why. So you you can touch people. I don't like touching people. I don't like AA. I don't like rules. I don't like having to go to a meeting and manipulate the meeting because I need to speak about something that your topic don't cover. I don't like sitting and listening to the same readings at the beginning of every meeting. It's not that they don't pertain to me. It's just that I'm not gonna go against what you're saying. Just quit saying it. I'm gonna do it my way. Because it's worked for me. But yeah, I don't stay in the parameters of AA or NA. I'm not a big fan of rules. That's why I love the check-in meetings that we do on Zoom. You know, you don't have to I don't have to drive 30 minutes or thirty miles. I put a shirt on and a hat, and you're not gonna see me from the waist down. That's my business. Here I am. This is what happened to me today, and I stayed sober because I did this. We get to talk about anything.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

Mm-hmm.

Joe 45:57

And I've never been to an in-person meeting. And it floors people. But the reason I share it with the guys on campus, and I'll tell them, I said, I'm not standing up here telling you that I've never been to an in-person meeting, so that you'll go, I'm gonna do what Joe did. No, that's not what I'm telling you. You know, I I was here in 2020, my first meeting was on Zoom. For two years, it's all we had. So the reason I'm telling you this is when you come back here because you relapsed and you say, I couldn't get to a meeting, I'm calling bullshit now. Because if you got a phone, you can look at TikTok, you can you can log on to a Zoom meeting. If you, you know, if your car gets repoed, you can't get to a meeting, you're broke, can't get a bus pass, you blow your hip out in a car wreck, you're in the hospital, you can still have a meeting if you got phone service. So that's why I I share it with them a bit. I don't I don't I mean I've been to the meetings like when we go to the the retreats.

Netanya 47:00

Yeah, yeah.

Joe 47:02

But I've never I've never been to a brick and mortar AA or in a meeting. Never been.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

Never been to the basement of the church. I love that.

Netanya 47:15

I mean that genuinely, because I I'm I just believe for me, everyone is different. Some people need the structure, the rigidity, the pro they need the boundary by which to follow the thing so that they stay, or just to get steady. I needed that more in the beginning. Right. And then I just know how I function. And if I get suffocated too much, I will leave and put that in whatever context you want, in a job, in a relationship, in a whatever. And so I have to create freedom and flexibility within the construct of whatever I'm working through so that I stay. It's for me so that I stay. And so it's been, I treat it like a blank canvas, like what color do I want to play with? What do I want to do over here? I'm gonna try this for a while. And I've tried on many different aspects of recovery, some of which I've liked more than others, some of which I'm like, that's not for me. And whether that's within the construct of a 12-step program or other recovery things or retreats and stuff, like I choose to do the things that I like that keep me coming back. It's one of the reasons I do retreats like that and I volunteer for that specific thing, is that I love to do that as a service. I already know how to run retreats and run events. I already do that for work. I've done that for years. That's not hard for me to do. And I have so much fun. Like I'm such a yes for that. Whereas other people like, I don't want to go do this, like, let me do that, you know. And there's other things that people do that I'm like, nope. But finding and picking and choosing that, you know, it's what Michael and I talked about in that episode. It's what Michael and I talked about on the couch for two hours when I met him was recovery a la carte. That like, how do you pick and choose this? And don't use that as a as a reason to like not take accountability for something. That's an important caveat. It just means like I think of things for me. I need service, I need community, and I need a higher power. And how I find those things or where I source them or where I route them through my life changes. And I I do so according to what I think feels best and what works best for me. So I keep saying yes. And I do. You know, I'm the one that usually calls Casey and I'm like, when are we doing the next thing? Because I like doing it. It's not an obligation. There's no, that's a volunteer thing that I said that I would show up for. And occasionally there's- and occasionally there's stuff that I'm like, I can't do that, or I don't want to do that. But like the things that I that I'm a yes for, I will say yes to.

Joe 50:00

Well, it's like we was at that Montgomery Bell thing. Yeah. Remember when they did the drumming inside that dark cabin? Yes. I couldn't do it. I had to get I had to walk back. I I walked in and I said, I can do this. I cannot do it. And there's just too many, we're too close, there's too many sticks, there ain't lights on, there's only one way out of this place. I got claustrophobic, and I said, No, not doing it. Because there's too many people, and I'm a big dude, and I'm I am gonna be first out that door if something happens. And if you if you're turned into a cobblestone, that's not my problem. You know, so I was like, you know what? I don't need to be in there. So I didn't. Um and I'm sure somebody was like, why the fuck wouldn't he do that? And I d I don't feel like I needed him to explain anything.

Self-Validation and Personal Growth

Netanya 50:57

No, you don't. And that's what I want to say that because I was talking to my mom earlier and we were talking about um she said no to something recently, and she grew up as I did, with like the that no comes with a whole line of things that you say after it to justify the socially acceptable reason of why you say no. And I've spent many years working on not doing that and saying just no is a complete sentence, or sometimes uh frequently I will say, like, thank you so much. I'm not available for that. And that's it. Like, you don't have to explain why you do or don't do anything.

SPEAKER_02 51:33

Yeah.

Netanya 51:33

You know, I like that you explained it in this circumstance because it helps me have a wider scope on things and understand that someone may have a very different experience of something that I I enjoyed that greatly. I felt like I vented a lot in that session, and I completely understand why you might choose not to do that. So I appreciate that. But had you been like, I'm out, like, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

You take care of you.

unknown 51:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

And I don't need to, I don't need to know why.

Joe 52:04

And it's kind of like whenever I tried to go back to church, which is something else I don't do. I got this saying, I've lost I've come to realize that I don't need a church. The church needs me. You know, I can talk to my higher power anywhere I am. I don't need to be in any building, out of any building. I don't need to be around anybody. But I don't know where I was see there. I don't know where I was going with it. Oh, and and I know where I was going now. Uh they would say, Where were you at last Sunday? What why do I need to tell you where I was? Yeah. I mean, if you missed me, tell me you missed me. Don't ask me where I was, because it's none of your business.

SPEAKER_03 52:51

You know?

Joe 52:51

Just let me know I missed you last Sunday. Thank you. I'm glad somebody noticed I wasn't here, you know. Uh, but don't don't go pry into what what I was doing Sunday, because I may have been fishing and I may have I may have caught nothing, but it's nobody's bit and that's one reason I could I was like, you know what? Why do these people why are they worrying about where I was? Why are they just not worried that I wasn't here?

SPEAKER_02 53:18

Yeah. Well, why do you think that is?

Joe 53:22

They're nosy. They try to judge me on what I picked to do instead of coming to church.

Netanya 53:29

And why would you do that?

Joe 53:31

Because it's something I wanted to do.

Netanya 53:33

No, I'm saying why would they judge you?

Joe 53:36

Oh, because they were there.

Netanya 53:38

It's about them.

Joe 53:40

Yeah. Nothing they put nothing above going to church. Well, in all reality, they would much rather have been able to go fishing with me than to go to church, but their wife wouldn't let them or if they would feel that. It's something, yeah, like you said, it's on them.

Netanya 54:00

It's usually a measuring. You're me when you start measuring what other people are doing, there's some level of discord or discontent within yourself, especially if you don't feel the permission to do the thing that someone else is doing for whatever reason. Um, or like I said, we'll go back to the need to be right, that my way is the right way because it validates that I'm doing this right.

unknown 54:24

Yeah.

Netanya 54:24

It's literally it's almost like a little kid thing, like you're a good boy, you did the right thing. That you're you're on the right path to your good versus being bad, which leaves no room for nuance.

Joe 54:39

Or when your parents tell you I'm proud of you, instead of telling you you should be proud of yourself.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

Yeah.

The Impact of Words and Responsibility

Joe 54:47

Because I get my validation from them and I don't get it from me.

Netanya 54:51

Yeah.

Joe 54:53

But if they teach me to be proud of myself, then I can self-validate that.

Netanya 54:58

Yeah, and I've had I mean, that's a you made that sound very easy, but that is a that's a journey for a lot of people to learn how to self-validate.

Joe 55:08

Yeah. You know, my reward every night is I didn't drink today. I didn't do bodily harm with my mouth to somebody today. You know, nobody's gonna kill their self because something I said. That's my validation. I didn't I didn't fuck up today. I'm good. Now it goes through my mind, did I? Should I have said that? Did I I should what did I say? I remember that guy's face when I said something. Was that bad or good? You know? It's like I read the crowd too much. Sometimes I just think too much.

Netanya 55:45

Well, and I think too when you when you're a human and you are fully in this experience, and like I said, you do care to an extent. We like to pretend that we don't care what people think. There's many people I don't care what people think, but people I hold in value, I do care. And so if I'm reading, Did I just say the wrong thing because I saw the look on his face, or that person makes a poor choice after that, I'm human. It makes sense that I would ask the question, like, did I contribute to that? And it doesn't mean I'm bad for thinking it, it means I'm human.

Joe 56:27

It used to bother me that every time I heard of somebody committing suicide, I would think, did I have anything to do with that?

SPEAKER_03 56:36

Mm-hmm.

Joe 56:38

Because I was so reckless with my mouth so many times. I was like, did I just get drunk and say something? And then I'm like, I ain't seen that guy in 13 years. Why in the world would I think I had something to do with that? It ain't like I missed a phone call from him 13 years and then he did it the next day, you know?

Netanya 57:01

But even if that's true, even if you missed a phone call, even if you said something, and you maybe you meant maybe what you said was kind, right? But how it was received messed up them internally, and then they did take that action and and their life, like you can't that is not yours to carry.

Joe 57:23

Yeah, because I meant it out of love, and he proceeded he he picked it up out of hate, and that that's on them. You know? They thought that. They should have asked some question or we should have communicated better. You know. My biggest problem in my entire life is I got too much time to sit and think about shit. That's why I've always got something playing in the background. Something that I could just go, let's listen to this.

SPEAKER_02 57:58

And if you did miss the call then you missed the call.

Netanya 58:03

Or sometimes you chose not to call back because it was self-preservation or safety, or do you know I mean there's a lot of nuanced reasons for that.

Joe 58:14

I do that a lot. Yeah. I'm like, it's my off day, I'm not dealing with it. I'll set that boundary, but then I'll it'll be a boundary that lasts till next off day. It's just like with you, it's like, oh, I need to text her back. And I'm like, all right, I'm not texting while I'm driving. That's just a rule I have. And then I honestly just forgot about by putting it off, and then I'm like, I should write this down. I was like, if I'm gonna write it down and drive, why not just text and drive? It's the same thing.

unknown 58:46

Yeah.

Joe 58:47

Well I learned the day I was just going through my phone, and I'm like, oh shit, I never answered her. And that's why I answered you those days because I just happened to be scrolling through the phone looking at all the people I missed. And it's crazy how my higher power works, is I did that and it made that connection.

Netanya 59:07

That was a cool higher power moment.

Joe 59:11

Yep. And that's what I tell people when I'm when I'm up there talking to them like I did on I do it every Thursday, so I don't know if you're ever coming back on a Thursday, but I don't know.

Netanya 59:21

He asked me to come and then um after we were done that night, and he was like, Did you would you do this again? I was like, sure. Like I like I like stuff like that. Again, when we're talking about saying yes to things, I'm happy to do that.

Joe 59:34

Yeah. And you don't get to plug your podcast in.

Netanya 59:37

No.

Joe 59:39

So I can do that for you at the end. Just know that when you come on Thursdays, that I'll I'll tell them, if I like that girl, let's do her podcast.

Netanya 59:48

I would love it. I the goal is to help people. Like it's the more people that know it's a free thing, use it. Yeah. I would be honored if you did.

Joe 59:59

I got me a guy a call, and I better see what he wants. I love you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:02

Thank you.

Netanya 1:00:03

Love you too. Bye.

Joe 1:00:04

Stay off drugs.

Netanya 1:00:09

Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to NataniaAllison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.