EP36: Brick by Brick | The Bravery of Vulnerability with Mike White

What does it actually mean to be vulnerable? 

In this episode, I sit down with Mike White to discuss the messy, courageous "practice" of becoming new again. From navigating the dating world after decades of marriage to dismantling defense mechanisms like humor and "fake anger," we explore what it really takes to let yourself be seen.

We dive into the weight of our choices on our communities, the freedom of surrendering control, and the pivotal moment you finally "put the shovel down" on the past. This is an exploration of the three pillars of transformation—Honesty, Open-mindedness, and Willingness—and the realization that bravery isn’t a grand gesture; it’s often just a single, courageous second.

We explore:

• Vulnerability as a Practice: It isn't a destination; it’s a skill built by doing things that feel new and uncomfortable. I think of it like riding a bike for the first time without training wheels—it’s that initial, shaky effort that eventually leads to balance.
• The Brick-for-Brick Exchange: Real relationships are built by lowering our walls one brick at a time. It is an intentional process of sharing a piece of your truth to see if the other person is willing and able to meet you there with a "brick" of their own.
• The "One-Second" Rule of Bravery: Bravery doesn’t have to be a grand, all-day event. It’s found in the tiny, split-second choices to stay present and lean into the edge of your comfort zone rather than retreating into the safety of old defense mechanisms.

Whether you're learning to put the shovel down or finding the courage to share your first "brick," this conversation is a reminder that transformation happens in those small, honest moments. Join us as we explore what it looks like to stop defending the past and instead, start letting people in.

Full episode and show notes: netanyaallyson.com/episodes/36

Transcript

00:00 Practicing Vulnerability

Netanya 0:09

Podcast is about those about the 20 points that things I wish someone had told me that I only understand that. I'm your host Natanya, and this is what I need to know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Mike White, and I love this conversation so much because I've gotten to witness Mike be vulnerable several times in recent months in real life, and I'm honored that he was willing to sit down and dive into this with me. In this episode, we get into the one second rule of bravery, that it often happens in an instant and not a grand gesture, how real relationships are built by lowering our walls one brick at a time, and that vulnerability is an ongoing practice we have the choice to keep leaning into. It's not a destination. For those of you who are regular listeners, you may notice the audio quality is a little different than usual. My original audio didn't save the way I wanted it to, so I'm using backup audio on this one. What I love about that happening on this specific episode is that the process of vulnerability is often messy and imperfect. It's that space of I'm not in a seat of certainty here, but I'm gonna keep leaning over the edge and keep going anyway. And that is where true bravery lives. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Yeah.

Netanya 1:56

Um, but I want to start with vulnerability. Just your experience with vulnerability, how that has changed for you over time. I've seen you be vulnerable recently, just in stuff that you read out loud in a meeting. Um, but what has that been like for you in terms of letting things be seen that are scary or you're still working on?

Understanding Community Impact in Relationships

SPEAKER_02 2:16

So being vulnerable. I think I think I'm just really learning, right, what that actually really is. Yeah. Now it's it's not like you didn't you don't do it. And I mean you, you probably anybody who works 12 steps, right, with a sponsor, yeah, right. You slowly learn to let the guard down to be vulnerable with the one person. Yeah. Right. You know what I mean? So that that I've done, you know, with my sponsor and then with sponsees, right? So it's it's kind of, but then at some point in time you just kind of, you know, it's being a dude, I think, right? You just kind of go, okay, well, I've you know, I've been vulnerable, right? Yeah. In reality, you haven't been really vulnerable because you don't know what it really meant. Just because I can tell a dark secret of my past or whatever, that ooh, I was vulnerable. All right, you know what I mean? I don't I don't think that's the same. So I think I'm just being it's a little scary to sit down and and try to just, you know, say things, but it's kind of like practicing the dating thing, right? So what I've I'm learning to do and what I practice doing is approaching women. Not I mean it's not like a daily thing that I do. Nothing like that, but find somebody that I I feel like possibly it's an opportunity to go, hey, would you like to go have a coffee? Would you like to go have dinner? I'm not talking movies or anything like that. Just, you know, something just to sit down, which is odd to do when you haven't done it. You know what I mean? So but slowly I'm learning to have conversations about, hey, you're too young, you know me, which is you know, a dude would be like, oh well, no, you're cute, but y you know, let's just get this out of the way that you know, you're way too young for the age group of a woman I would be looking for. I don't know if that's being vulnerable, right? Of that and kind of opening up. So like I said learning, I mean, learning what vulnerability is, you know. But I I'm able I've always been able to cry. And so if if you and I have a really a real conversation, I guess falls under being vulnerable.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

All right. That tears can well up, you know what I mean? That it feels good when you're done.

Netanya 4:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

All right. You can walk away and go, that wasn't so scary. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Netanya 4:46

So And I don't know, I don't know what the exact definition of vulnerability is, but like being for me, it's being in that space where I'm I'm not solid, right? I am new. I am learning. Either I'm the new kid at something, or I'm having a hard conversation, or I'm doing something where I'm afraid. There's fear somewhere in there because if there's not fear, it's not vulnerable.

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Right.

Netanya 5:09

Right. That's kind of what makes that. And I can remember the first when I was very new, like my first meetings that I was in, I was so nervous to share the truth of what my life had been like because I hadn't talked about it, right? Um, and then it was about maybe a year had passed, and I was telling that story again, and I was talking about vulnerability, and I realized I'm not, this isn't vulnerable anymore. The thing that once was, I'm not new anymore. I tell this story all the time. So I'm not actually being vulnerable. Yeah. So, like you said, the dating thing, though, that's something we both have that in common of like that space of when you've been in a long-term partnership or a marriage, and that you know, dissolves for any number of reasons. That going back out again and trying to date as a you're a different person than you were, you know, 20 years before or whatever. Right. Um, but that space of I'm gonna be new. I think of it as like a kid on a on a bike with like no train, you just took off the training wheels, you were kind of wobbly. And like that's what vulnerability feels like.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Yeah.

Netanya 6:12

For me.

Truth and Honesty in Recovery

SPEAKER_02 6:14

I will I will continue to, you know, practice. Right. You know what I mean? So it's it's it's uh it's new. And and I think on the inside I really, I really am like uh liking the opportunities of like on, hey, it's more of like a freeing. You know what I mean? I th I think it it kind of falls and and just you know, thinking it it kind of falls under when you do like do a four step, right? And you dump some stuff that you walk away and you feel the weight come off, right? It I've kind of got that feeling of like, oh, wait a minute, I've got some freedom in here to I'm not trying to sleep with you, right? I'm just trying to learn to sit down and learn how to have a conversation with you, and that's gonna open the door up for conversations with other women, right? You know what I mean? So I'm just trying to learn that, and it's kind of like, oh, it it almost can almost get that same feeling of relief and freedom of like, whoa, this is okay. Yeah it's okay to be me, and then I'm not looking for nothing to fill this hole, right? Because I don't think I have a hole there. You know what I mean? I mean, I got God, you know what I mean? I pray, I enjoy what I do, I get up and I'm happy, you know. So I don't know.

Netanya 7:34

I think your word of practice was really good. This is a practice. I'm practicing.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

I'm I'm practicing.

Netanya 7:39

I'm trying different things.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

That's kind of my approach of, you know, being, hey, would you like to go have dinner? Yeah, it's a it's a practice. And I I was saying up front, I'm practicing learning to, you know, I mean, do this.

Netanya 7:52

Even something you said the other day, because I was thinking about it last night, because I don't know that I've talked about that that much, was when you had brought up spending time with someone that you met at the gym. Right. And I think the people don't think about this as much as I think we should, which is sort of zooming out and thinking about the bigger scope of where you met someone, the community involved, how that is all affecting.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Right.

Netanya 8:16

Um and you brought it up in terms of the gym of like this isn't it's not just that you met someone at the gym, it's what is the gym for you. It's a whole community. It's a, you know, there's associations and friendships and reputation, and it's a place that you want to spend your time, right?

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Yes.

Netanya 8:30

And so to understand that the choices that you make, whether it's like fully romantic or sexual or anything, that that you're engaging with someone, if you choose to do that, that that has impact on the community.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

Yes.

Netanya 8:44

And um what I brought up was my version of that is not at the gym, but it's in recovery.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Right.

Netanya 8:51

That I am very careful about that specific space of uh, you know, some people come in and um they they just start dating or sleeping with people because they connected with them and they haven't had anyone they haven't felt seen or haven't felt, you know, and so they they kind of jump off that cliff without considering the consequences or the after effect of the community that you're in, if that doesn't go through or how that might be taken. And I just I like that it's it's kind of like playing the tape, right?

SPEAKER_04 9:22

All the way through all the way through.

Netanya 9:24

We talk about it in recovery, but it's like any choice that you make, can you play the tape on how does this go? If this goes wrong, how does that affect me in these other areas, you know? And how do you if you go to meetings again and then you see her there? And and it's not it's not to say don't do it, it's just think about it before you do that.

The Role of Emotions in Healing

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Yeah. Think think of how you're gonna feel because yeah, it looks like I mean, even in recovery for me, it's the same thing. Um and I don't know if it's you've been around long enough that you kind of understand that, hey, this is, you know, I mean, and and I think for me, because really a lot of my early recovery, because I've been in recovery before, right? And you know, did I sleep around? I don't think I did. I don't think I was that guy, right? There's hit on women and all that, right? But because that's not what I was looking for. But this time around, I was like, okay, I wanna, you know, I don't want to be, I don't want to be that guy that other guys, right? So it was learning to say to you if there's a conversation and you know, you would say something about, you know, other guys, and I'd be like, hold on, let me let me go ahead and stop you before you put me in that box. I'm not in that box. All right, let's let's clarify that. And I th I spent a lot of years of making sure I stop people from saying, oh, you're like, and I'm like, no, no. Some people are like that. I said, that's not me. You know what I mean? So it's it's a pride of, you know, I I prided myself of being this guy. That's why, you know, my marriage, I was with her almost 20 years. And I did not, I did not uh approach women and you know, flirt. Now, did did I get Facebook, you know, request them on Facebook and befriend them and stuff? Yes, of course. I mean, they was coming to home groups, right, whatever. And I'm like, but I was never private messaging, I was never liking a bunch of nothing. Um it's just they was there, right? And I think that made her a little insecure, right? But it was like, no, dude, I'm not, I'm not out there going, hey, how you doing? You want to go have coffee after? And be like, no, I was not doing none of that. I mean, and and and so for me to learn to do it, well, that's why I say it's practicing. You know what I mean? I I've never done that for a long time.

Netanya 11:40

Well, and something I appreciate so greatly about the times that I've sat and talked to you is is what you just described. Like, we're just gonna talk about it. Right. I've watched, I grew up with with all different scenarios where people push things under the rug or were passive aggressive or vague or kind of hinting at things and not being, you know, truthful or partially truthful, or we're gonna omit things. Um, and I'm generally pretty direct in terms of like, hey, what is this or what isn't it? And it's not from trying to be aggressive or scary. It's just like, let's be clear on anything. It helps when you just say the thing. And it's it's I've had to learn how to talk about things in a different way than I did not do. You know, I made assumptions, I made judgments, I would call things like even relationships or whatnot, like, are you dating or not? Let's just talk about that. What does that mean to you? That might mean something different to you than it does to her, you know. But it's something I appreciate and want you to regularly is not being afraid to address the thing. Can we just talk about whatever the thing is, you know, in the room?

SPEAKER_04 12:44

Yeah.

Netanya 12:45

How are you on in the same scope of vulnerability telling the truth? Like in terms of a lot of this work we've had to go through and dig, and like you said to your sponsor to talk in that space, but how are you in terms of owning and acknowledging the truth about anything these days?

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Well, I think uh I mean for me, and I think you know, we talk about on how if it's if you're in a rut, right? And or is it the path that you're on, which we say we don't, you know, you you learn not to veer off your path, right? Once you find a path that you go, this is a good path. Right. Now, in early recovery, you do you do bear off and then you make mistakes and you're like, oh crap. I have to put that on my men's list, right? So, but I I think in the last, you know, 15 years or so, I'm just I'm on a just a a path that I already know I don't step off. You know what I mean? So what was you asking me again? So I make sure I'm there.

Netanya 13:48

About the truth. Like I've seen people even in meetings, right, share a part of something.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Right.

Netanya 13:53

And not the whole truth.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Yeah. You're you didn't even say, you didn't even say what you know, I mean, now now we're trying to figure out what you was talking about. And I'm like, no, I mean just say what it is.

SPEAKER_04 14:06

Yeah.

The Journey of Self-Acceptance

SPEAKER_02 14:06

And and and no, I think I'm uh I think I'm pretty good with that. So I I think I'm learning, right? And and I think, you know, it's kind of like the questions of like, you know, what kind of uh female am I going to be looking for for a future, right? Because, you know, for me it's like I'll be 64 next month. I'm not looking for, you know, somebody that, you know, I mean, is so much younger than me that all of a sudden it's like, well, I'm, you know, with this 75-year-old guy, you know what I mean, and here I am, you know, 44 or 48, right? So I understand that, you know, my life is at at a a point, right? And I think then that's where the my truth of being honest with whatever, right, yeah, is there because it's like, hell, what do I got? 20 more years of life, right? You know, why am I gonna not, you know, practice and the opportunity is there to practice being vulnerable, to tell the truth, right? And to kind of free myself. And that's what I think I'm getting is I'm starting to start to be like, hey, you know what? I don't care what nobody thinks about me, right? You know what I mean? I I'm finding I'm finding, you know, some inner stuff that makes me feel good to go, wow, okay, it's okay to be single. You know what I mean? I don't I don't need anybody. I I mean I go out and I talk to people anyway. So I'm I'm a people person, right? Now, but I'm a loner. Because I drive I drive to meetings alone, I hang out alone, but I still am a people person. So it's like I'm talking to people. I wish I could speak Spanish because that's a whole group of people that don't get my jokes. I'm like, dang, I've got some funny stuff to say, and I think I can't say it to them.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

And well then that's why you want to speak Spanish. Not to communicate with them, but to tell them jokes.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

I just want to have jokes and make little cute jokes like so that's because that's my, you know, that's my defense mechanism, right? Is to make light of anything. So, but no, I think I think more is gonna be revealed about me and the truth, whatever that is. But I I just I don't know, it's just it seems like I'm just still in my little am I in a bubble maybe that's comfortable but I still get out of it. I think so I don't know that I'm like in a bubble. You say does that make any sense to me?

Netanya 16:32

Yeah, it's almost like a structure.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Like you keep I have a structure, yes.

Netanya 16:36

If you think of a river like the banks of a river that hold you in, you know, which is healthy.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

Yeah.

Netanya 16:42

Um, but also noticing when and where that's um claustrophobic or limiting, right? And like you said, and when to get out of it. When do I need to go?

SPEAKER_02 16:52

Yeah. I mean it it I mean, it's just a big uh learning learning curve.

Netanya 16:58

Do you have uh like thoughts on how do you like yourself more than you used to? Or is that noticeable for you guys?

SPEAKER_02 17:04

I mean, honestly, I think I've always liked myself. That's it. You know what I mean? And and I like who I am. Now, you know, there there are times that you go, okay, you know, and and uh I guess I've probably with experience, right, have already toned down the, you know, when is it time to actually make a joke?

SPEAKER_04 17:22

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

That you know, this this is not the time for my cute little one that pops in there. I'll be like, ooh, but it's a good one. And then it's just like, you know what? This is a time for you just to be quiet and listen and you know I mean take it in and and walk away knowing, right, that that was okay, right? Because that conversation didn't need my input, right? Of something to lightings to lighten something up. It didn't need lightening up, you know what I mean? So it I think that kind of falls under too of me learning if I'm feeling like I need to be vulnerable, right? Right, then I need to not smile and make a joke and and kind of leave it at that, because then I just then I just kind of we don't even deal with it, right? Because I made a joke and we moved on. We don't have to get deep about none of that stuff. Yeah, let's just giggle and laugh and I'd be like, yeah, you know, I gotta go though.

Forgiveness and Moving Forward

Netanya 18:14

So When did you figure out that that was your defense mechanism?

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Uh I had a sponsor back in 1991. Yeah that he was my first sponsor when I got in recovery, and that's what he told me. He said, Dude, I was probably 28, right? He's like, he's like, Man, Michael, he said, he choked about everything. And I'm like, I do. I mean, I I don't want to deal with nothing, you know. And I run into somebody like you, right? And and I run into more, you know, people, dudes or whatever. But some some people just, you know, you know they wanna like have questions and it's like, yeah, I ain't got time to mess with no questions, right? Because you're you're trying to find something out about me, which is not bad, right? It's just that, you know, I'm like, no, this is this isn't mine. You can't you can't get in here. Right? And I can't give it to you because what are you gonna do with it?

Netanya 19:11

What do you yeah, what is the like underlying fear of what happens if someone finds out Well then they just they use it as a weapon. Oh.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Yeah, I mean, people use stuff as a weapon and and I think that's the biggest thing about, you know, sponsorship, all right? That ultimately you you you share with one person, right? And then if you don't get it back or hear from it, you know what I mean? Because I I mean my my second wife, who is uh married in recovery, when uh uh like in nine ninety no, try to take it back, two thousand and probably two thousand and uh three or four we got married. But through the course of, you know, our short marriage, right, the conversations about, you know, my sponsor and some of the stuff that he was living outside of his marriage, right, got turned around and throwed at me. Like, you know, I mean, well, you know, I've had some experiences in that area, right? And, you know, she decided that at some point in time to use it as a weapon. And then the divorce was on its way. So that kind of you know, I mean, that conversation with her kind of made me go, okay, now I just, you know, but but also then you have to learn that, you know what, maybe I wasn't a hundred percent okay with but it was early, right? I was still early, you know, three or four years in, getting comfortable sharing, you know, one of my deep uh truths, the trauma, basically, right? So it it's kind of that. So if you if you know it and then you use it against me, right, then that turns into anger and you know, yeah, you know, you're probably in a danger zone.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Well, and it breaks trust.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

That's hard to rebuild.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Then you kind of you know you creep back in, it's like, okay, you know, I can't really share it at all. But you know, over the time it was like, you know, I've learned to share it at a podium and it's fine. And it it's okay because whether you you you receive it however, it doesn't really matter. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 21:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

But I've learned I've learned over the years that we're so caught up in our own crap that you'll forget what I shared about a podium in six months, and you know what I mean, unless somebody mentioned, oh yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. He did say something about that. Oh, okay. I forgot all about that. So we just move on.

Netanya 21:32

Well, we're so centered like in a nucleus, right? We're the center of our own world. And we all think, everyone thinks you're everyone's looking at you or thinking about what you said. And it's like, I I think most of us I remember the things that are relatable to my own life. You know, so if you share something, I might listen for the whole story, but I'll pull the thing I'll remember is the thing that I can take or or hits me and something that resonates with me. And a lot of the rest of it is. Oh. Have you had that that done to you more than once, the weaponizing? Not really.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

You know, now because I'm I'm on guard with my, you know, my education, right? That's still and but but I learned to say that early in rec so early in recovery, I don't I practice a lot of, you know what I mean, saying, okay, I know it gets me angry, right? And when I feel the anger, then it means what was I angry about? And then it meant I needed to say to whoever it was that triggered that, hey, that's not okay. You know what I mean? I was like, ooh, that's kind of, you know, makes you look like a damn pussy. You know, I think being a dude, right? You're kind of like, yeah, I can't say this in my feelings. But I I did early recovery. I just I just was like, you know, I'm gonna learn to say instead of screaming and putting my hands on people, which I was really bad about because I was so angry.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

So when it comes to my education, I was like, I'm not, you know, educated. I am street smart, right? Smart fella. All right. I said, but if I feel like you build belittle me, then that builds the anger. And that that would fall under not just, you know, sex stuff or whatever. You know, it no matter what it is, right?

Netanya 23:16

So how are you in general with feelings these days?

SPEAKER_02 23:20

I kind of process them a little, but I mean I still think I'm just on that little path that I don't really have to like I don't like go create create stuff to make me have to have feelings of a certain way. And I think I've done that for a lot of my recovery. And I I hope I hope my early recovery of, you know, learning that anger, and it was a gut anger that I would feel that was come up, and I'd go, oh, okay, what do you what just pissed you off? You know what I mean? What was it? Right? I mean, in the beginning, I mean, seriously, I mean, I probably had three months, maybe four months clean, but I started paying attention to what made me mad, and I saw a little old lady wasn't turned right on red, right? And that that's how I started identifying it, right? I mean, it'd be like if if the little old lady or you or anybody was in front of me and all of a sudden you went to dig change out to pay the exact, you know, 72 cents, right? I would feel anger. I was like, really, dude, what's that about? So I've worked on a lot of that in early recovery. So I I had somebody step on my shoe one time and laughed and walked away and and I just bought them. I was like, hmm, I like these shoes. But I had to I had to just say, hey, that was not okay. And then I actually saw the guy the next day and we had a discussion about it. I was like, oh, that was pretty good. You know what I mean? So yeah, I don't think I I don't think I try to get out and try to create something to have feelings.

SPEAKER_04 24:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

You know what I mean? So but but I also do pay attention to what I may feel about whatever you might have said or they said, and and if I feel like I need to have a, you know, or I want to have a conversation with somebody about something that may be what you said is we I felt the connection of what you were sharing about that had that actually I could relate to the titan. It may only have been that one thing. All right. I didn't want to talk about all that other stuff that you took to talk about. I just wanted to kind of go, hey, you know, that I thought was something and I had a fill in with it, you know. And maybe we can talk.

Netanya 25:29

In the in the opposite of anger, how do you feel about sadness?

SPEAKER_02 25:33

I don't know that uh I don't know that I sit and uh, you know, actually feel it.

Netanya 25:39

Going to it.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

I don't I don't think I I don't know if I sit and feel it. You know, it's yeah the the conversation with uh the word love, right? I mean my sponsor will tell you that's not my word, you know, and I will tell people that's not my word. Now, I will say I love you and all that, but that doesn't mean uh like know that that was like love. You know what I mean? So it's kind of like, you know, my sponsor, he knows it. He he don't say I love you when we get ready to hang up because he knows it's not my word.

Netanya 26:09

What is your word?

SPEAKER_02 26:10

It's that's not I love you. You know, now I love my kids, right? But when I say I love you, I I don't know I don't it's like I don't think I tie a feeling into like, oh my god, I just really love you. Yeah I mean it's like no I love you, I mean it's just a word. Right? So I mean I I don't know. I mean there I think there's some feelings that I probably have always shut off, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

And you know, I mean just moved on with and you know, and become who I am. Now, I might be trying to be a little more practice vulnerability and and knowing that there's something there, right?

unknown 26:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

And I mean my therapist, I've started therapy. It's been like probably almost 90 days, you know, I mean, going to the same therapist, so we get to talk about stuff. So I don't know, it's it's all net.

Netanya 27:06

Well, in that space of I think that's you know, that's very common for any emotion of like if you've experienced that at any point in your life, whether it's 20 years ago or when you were a kid, you know, and you have been open or allowed love or allowed sadness or allowed those things, and pain follows it, right? The tendency to stuff it, I don't want to feel that again is very high. Yeah, that's a very common experience. Um I've I've just found in in specifically in men that like often anger and sadness are like they have one relationship to one, usually anger. I think again, just just from from observational experience that men sort of societally are more socially acceptable to be angry. Um and so I've just men in recovery, especially. I think I've watched have to work harder on what like finding it, like locating it in your body that I still carry this thing, um, acknowledging or naming it, or whether it's verbally or writing it out that like I I was sad about this. I'm I have sadness, even if you can't feel it all, just like working through the process of locating that. It's just sadness.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Now now what's that look like? Yeah. And why was I sad?

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

You know, it's it's and I think that's the big deal is just me trying to identify, you know what I mean, what the feeling was that would make me go, oh, I was just kind of thinking that was kind of sad, or it was kind of happier. I mean, it doesn't matter. I mean, it's like, okay, I gotta try to identify some of that stuff and ask questions.

Netanya 28:42

So when I had the opposite, um, I was very comfortable, am very comfortable with sadness. And I did not have a great relationship with anger. I th I thought I was in a women's mentorship group like 10 years ago, and it was a virtual thing. We'd meet every month like online and talk, and there was a topic, and um one one month the topic was anger. And I can remember sitting there and be like, I'm not angry. I don't, I don't know, you know, like I'm like I'll listen and whatever, but I'm not angry about anything. And I really thought that I wasn't angry. Yeah. And then I she had us go get a pillow and punch the pillow and just see what happened. And like I let go and I was, I was, I lost it. I was crying and furious. And I found some things that I was angry about, like the memories that I was living were from when I was young, things that I was angry about that I by the time I was done, I was like, oh, I guess I'm angry. But I just didn't know because like I was that was not that was not that was not good. It wasn't um polite or proper or kind or giving things that you want to be as an adult woman. Like I'm I don't want to be angry. Angry also gets associated with for women, it'll get the tag of like you're bossy, you're bitchy, you're you know, these other sort of other sides of of emotions or like labels that get put on you if you're angry or you're aggressive or difficult. Yeah. Um, and I didn't want to be any of those things. So I'm not gonna be angry. Like, let me just be nice. I'm just nice.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Yeah.

Netanya 30:16

You know, and so it took me a while to practice how do I own and honor that I am. In fact, I have anger. I've gone through things that um were not okay, right? And to talk about that and work through that and have it be something I can access occasionally.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

Right.

Netanya 30:32

And I don't have to live from that, right? Most days I don't, I don't need anger a lot of times, you know, but it's useful to help me identify and process and work through like, hey, that's not okay with me.

SPEAKER_04 30:43

Yeah.

Netanya 30:44

Just interesting of how we all have different experiences with feelings and emotions and learn different things. And I've had to practice.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Like it's all practice.

Netanya 30:53

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

It's all practice. Uh-huh. Willing to practice.

Netanya 30:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

Yeah. And I'm willing to practice.

Netanya 31:00

That's one of the things I have so much respect for you about. Um, how is your experience with forgiveness throughout all of this journey?

Forgiveness and Repair in Relationships

SPEAKER_02 31:10

I'm probably in the process of, you know, learning, and I think that's gonna, and I think really the forgiveness is really gonna wind up being for the ex-wife, right? Yeah. Am I gonna be able to at some point in time and practice forgiveness? But you know what? I'm I'm an easy going, uh let me just say I'm a Gemini. So, so what to me, I think what I do is I I kind of I can kind of understand and let it go and move on and just keep going. And I think that's a lot of who I am. So once the whole deal of my wife cheating was exposed, right, I still said, hey, you know what? I understand. I own my part, right? I said, I said, in reality, I probably got 60 or 80 percent more my part of, you know, like going, hey, you know, we're not here, right? So I said, I said, that's fine. I said, I'm just not a big deal.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

All right. And I said, you know, I am willing to forgive you and we can move on and stay married, right? And that was agreed upon, right? And and really I I I kind of go, you know, I mean, I've been around a while, you know. You know, sex is sex. You know what I mean? You know, I mean, if somebody cheats and we can work it out, right? Because it's not acceptable to continue, but it's okay to acknowledge that, hey, we were in a spot that, hey, it was not good, right? Now how can we fix that? So I I think I don't think I'm really holding grudges. Right. You know, I mean, I I may fake I do a lot of fake like I'm pissed off at you. I can I can fake be mad at somebody, right? And all it does is make me laugh on the inside because I'm like, I'm not really mad at them, but you know, they're still an asshole. Right. So I just want to kind of keep that, you know, that little mask of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're still an asshole, and yeah, you know what you did. Right. So I don't know that I don't know that I'd really, you know, maybe more would be revealed. Maybe you'll have me here in uh uh two years from now to go, okay, where are you at on forgiveness? Like, I don't know, still the same spot.

Netanya 33:20

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

You know?

Netanya 33:22

Um, well, and I love what you brought about, because you're talking about repair, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:26

Yeah.

Netanya 33:26

Fixing things after they've been dismantled or, you know, changed in one way or another. And that's hard for a lot of people. Like, even just what you said, that's a lot of people wouldn't sit well with that. That like that you can fix it. Not not fix as in make it all better, but like acknowledge and work to actively put things in process to repair something.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Um but it takes two people to do that, too. Yeah. You know what I mean? So it's that same thing of like, yeah, two people can if we work on it. All right. And that would be with any relationship. I mean, it's like uh my buddy that I play golf with. It's he's pissed me off a few times, and and I'm like, dude, it's not okay. And I kind of have like I'd want one time, so so one time I was finally it finally got to the point that I was kind of just totally irritated. I mean, seriously. I was like, oh my God. Right. So there were still six holes left to play. I got out of the cart and walked the six holes. You sure you don't want to ride? I'm like, nope. I took my I took the clubs I needed, and each time I would hit, I would just take the clubs out of the bag and I would continue to walk. You know what I mean? And that brought us to another discussion at at a later date of like, hey, you know, I mean, this is you know, this is not okay. So, yeah.

Netanya 34:55

Okay, we talked about forgiving other people. What about yourself?

Awareness and Anger Management

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Uh like I say, I I want to say that since I've worked the 12 steps, right, and have worked the 12 steps like nine times with uh sponsees, right? That I and once again I fall back on me being a Gemini that that for some odd reason it's like the you know the water rolls off the duck, right? I think I'm that guy that that I just just move forward. I don't hold on to that stuff, right? I I kind of practiced it, accepted that it's it's what it was, and now who am I moving forward? So I don't know that there's a lot that I'm having to pay attention to forgive myself. Now I will say this, right? And and I kind of pay attention to it, and I don't want I really don't want to say this because I I say it and then all of a sudden, you know, somebody here would be like, oh, really? That's what he thinks. But my experience, because you you talked about how we observe people right in the rooms, outside the rooms, whatever, you know, if you're around them enough, you can observe it. But so my thing is when it comes to women and men in recovery, and and I've I've got a few examples, right, of women that I've seen continue to do this and continue to be unhappy, you know, at times, what seems miserable, but it's like at some time when do you quit digging to find what's wrong with me, right? Or how can I get this or make that happen better? So it's like I've watched women, you know, oh, I've worked the steps 12 times. I'm like, the hell? Yeah, and you're and you're still trying to do X, Y, Z, right, instead of like surrendering and stop digging and move on. And so I'm big on going, hey, for for 19 years, 20 years, or whatever, I've I've always shared it. I've worked the 12 steps one time. I I have dealt with all that stuff. I said, I don't feel that I need to dig into the steps again. And when working them with other sponsees, I said, I'm I'm still, and we're talking years of, you know, doing it. I said, I'm always when I'm working steps with the sponsee, I said, we're talking about and I'm seeing and looking at how I'm living too. I mean, it's not like you're just sharing your stuff. I'm going, dude, oh yeah, I think this, right? I was going to try to think that. You know what I mean, or act on that. And I'm like, no, I'm not gonna. You know what I mean? So so anyway, that's my my thing about, you know, I think, you know, just kind of let it go and it is what it is, right? Move on and and stop trying to figure out why that happened 30 years ago. You know what I mean? Because if I do, then what are I what am I doing? I'm still living in thirty years ago. You know what I mean? I'm like, yeah, so now am I still angry? Probably. You know? So it's like, yes, uh and I I've got a s I girl a sponsor, and she knows that I've told her, I said, put the damn shovel down. Dude, quit digging. You know what I mean? It doesn't that doesn't really help, you know, in the long run.

Netanya 38:10

Do you feel like as you've gone through steps responsees or just just the years that have passed and you're looking at stuff, do you have stuff that repeats for you? Or you have repeated lessons or repeated things and you're like, oh, I'm here again.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

No, no, not really. No, I mean the anger, anger has always been, you know, that thing. It's and so in the last two, three years, I've you know, I've been aware, right? And I've not been in fist fights in 20 plus years, which is a miracle, but I've learned that for me not to like beat the horn at people because it turns into an issue, right? Yeah. Let me beep the horn at you. Well, just was it last night? Yes, last night, coming home from the job that I was doing, and it was like 10:30 at night, and I'm three minutes from the house, and out of the blue, I see this car comes flying up on me, bright lights, and just gets right on my tailgate. And I'm just kind of going, okay, you know, so I definitely I did not I did not uh do the uh power brake move on them, right? But I did slow down, and then in the process I'm kind of going, okay, you know, this is when people probably get shot at 10 30 at night or 11 at night on a back road, right? Just by me wanting just to slow down instead of just maybe even pull off and let them go around me or whatever. So, but yeah.

Netanya 39:43

Well, and a lot of that is it it takes self-awareness, right? You have to be aware that you do it, and then you have to make a different choice live in the moment, yeah, right to move forward in a different direction. Which is difficult. Like, I mean, that's learned. You learn how to do that. I've had to do that in my own things, but it's still I'm always impressed by it, like in the sense of you're creating change, right?

SPEAKER_04 40:07

Right.

Netanya 40:08

Instead of just doing the thing you've always done and being reactive, there's intention and choice.

SPEAKER_02 40:15

That's my thing about not blowing the horn. It's like, and I purposely go, okay, there was an opportunity, but it's like, no, it's not a big deal. You know, so so I've I've learned in early recovery, like, why am I in a hurry to go somewhere, right? Yeah. Because I watch people in a hurry to go somewhere, and I used to be. But then and and everybody would see it. It's like eventually I wanted to get past you, and then all of a sudden, four miles away, we're still at the red light side to side. I was like, man, I worked hard to get around them. I was angry at them too, right? You know what I mean? Don't look over there because they're probably mad because you probably done done some stuff you shouldn't have done, and they're gonna be ahead of you. I did it the other day. I was poor, poor girl. She worked hard to get uh past me and stuff, and then when it was all said and done, I was eight cars in front of her on the inside, I was happy.

Netanya 41:10

That's hilarious. To relate to the what I asked you, one of the things I have to keep coming back to is surrender. I have to uh go back to that whether it's the step itself or it's just the concept of like I don't have to control this, okay. Um but it's a practice.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Yeah.

Netanya 41:29

I have to keep doing that.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Yeah. So surrend surrender is awesome.

Netanya 41:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

I mean, it's a hell of a freedom.

Netanya 41:35

It is.

SPEAKER_02 41:36

You know what I mean? And then it's only gotta be done for that, you know, one moment. The one moment is like, whoa, I surrendered and all of a sudden I got freedom, and now I can move away from and then go, wow, I could have created a whole bunch of other stuff behind, you know what I mean? Yeah something stupid. A lot of my stupid shit, but I'll create something that I'll be like, really?

Netanya 42:00

No, you it's it's a practice that I have to I think about like a like a spiral staircase where it's like you go up higher on the staircase, but you come back around at the same spot again.

SPEAKER_03 42:11

Yeah.

Netanya 42:12

And I think we each have certain things, like you said, if yours is anger.

SPEAKER_03 42:14

Right.

Netanya 42:15

Um and and one of mine is surrender, which comes like hand in hand with control. And control in in my experience of what I've walked through in my own journey is a lot about safety.

unknown 42:27

Right.

Netanya 42:28

I just want to feel safe, and so I think I have to control things so that I feel safe, right? Which is just an echo from childhood dreams. Um, but it's just an ever, ever, never-ending practice of, oh, but here it is again. I gotta let it go again.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

Right. See, not I just I just think that, you know, I have found this place that, you know, I am, you know, I mean, and and is it probably control and all that? Maybe so, you know what I mean? But I've found my safe space, you know what I mean? And that's like in that little area is, you know, is me, which I still invite people in, but then I still have the voice to go, hey, you you can come in, that's fine. But you're not bringing that with you. Yeah, I mean now if you want to bring that with you, you need to stay over there, and that's fine, and then I will do the fake mad at you, right? So you will stay over there, right?

SPEAKER_03 43:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:24

But but you you know, I've I've learned, you know, I will respect any and everybody, regardless in or out of recovery, doesn't matter. If there's something you are going through that I go, you know what, I I can I can allow you to be that. I can be supportive if that's if I'm in, you know, asked to do something in that area. But you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, no, I'm not I just gonna respect that about, you know, whatever.

Establishing Boundaries in Relationships

Netanya 43:48

So Well, and what is your experience like with boundaries? 'Cause that's that's essentially what you're talking about, right? Like you're gonna go over here.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Yeah.

Netanya 43:55

How has that been for you?

SPEAKER_02 43:57

I don't know that I have to technically use them.

Netanya 44:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

And and and I think I think a lot of, a lot of a lot of that is I I probably don't know that I have to use all them tools. All right. I don't have to use all this stuff to kind of go like that. But it's like, I don't think I have an issue with boundaries.

SPEAKER_04 44:16

No.

SPEAKER_02 44:17

All right. I don't think I do. Now I have boundaries of, you know, and I don't know if you really call it a boundary if if you're we're discussing something and you make a comment about my education or, you know, or my sexuality or anything of these, you know, any anything that then it was like, is that a boundary or is that me saying, hey, you're an asshole?

Netanya 44:40

Like self-advocating, essentially.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Yeah, but then it then it's like, you know, is it at some point that some people that do that, right? Do you kind of go, hey, what you're doing is you're doing it to other people too, which is not okay. So is that am I setting a boundary for somebody else? Or am I putting somebody in their place?

SPEAKER_04 44:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:59

I don't know. I mean, it's hard to say. I don't like I said, a lot of that stuff I don't know that am I setting boundaries? Am I feeling feelings? I don't know. I mean, I'm just going through life and you know, on this path. All right. And I think that's why I keep saying it's like, you know, I found a path of recovery that works for me. Just like you would find a path. Anybody else, you know, I respect everybody's path. Now, if your path, you know, folds over into something that is, you know, ugly, right? Yeah, then, you know, if it's around me, then I have a I think I have a responsibility to, you know, gingerly, you know, say, hey, by the way, you might want to look at that, right?

SPEAKER_04 45:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

And then let it go at that. You know, I mean, I'm not going to push you no more, right? But if you bleeds into my circle, then it's like, okay, well, now we we have to have a discussion, right? And then I'll be fake mad at you until you change.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

This is hilarious. You're fake mad thing.

SPEAKER_02 46:00

Um I am always fake mad. I can be fake mad. I paid attention to it. I'm like, oh yes, I'm not really mad at that person.

Netanya 46:07

But I believe it too, just like facially expressions that you could pull it off and people would absolutely Oh yeah, exactly. Does this happen a lot? Do you do this a lot?

SPEAKER_02 46:15

I mean, it's it's something that, you know, I can I can do it.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

Yeah. Exactly.

Dating and Setting Standards

Netanya 46:21

Um that's hilarious. Well, and how about boundaries with like when you're talking about dating? Because that's a new thing too. And I have, as I've gotten older, I have a lot more standards than I used to have, right? I was more, my life has changed that mattered. You know, I was more when I was, I don't know, 22. I was more you don't have as much, you haven't figured you out as much yet. So you're kind of more open, or I was kind of more open. And I just have found like in that experience more lately, I am I have standards around things or things I'm available for and I'm not available for. And that's where some of that boundaries come in, is like owning, like up, I'm not up for that, you know.

SPEAKER_04 47:00

Right.

Netanya 47:00

And just not letting any of that into my space, whatever it is. But that clarity around knowing what those boundaries are and what I'm available for, and then also voicing it.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Yeah, see, Alexa, I don't, I don't know that, you know, I know my uh in the dating process, right? It's like understanding that, you know, me dating a 34-year-old is is not, you know what I mean, that's not where I need to be. And my sponsor made sure he understood you've already done that, right? You know what I mean? I'm like, oh yeah. So, you know, I don't I don't know if, you know, I'm kind of looking at like the forever relationship, right? What what does that look like? You know what I mean? And and I jokingly, you know, in the beginning, right after the divorce, and I kind of, you know, because I like to joke, right? But I jokingly heard somewhere in my brain that, hey, you know, my pickup line is gonna be, hey, how about you you and I put our Social Security checks together and we'll live happily ever after. You know what I mean? So that my so that was in there. So I I I pay attention to when stuff pops in my head that it's like funny, but then it's like, okay, well that's you know, that's some real stuff.

Netanya 48:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

Right now, let me process it, right, on what's that look like, right? And so what it looks like is, yeah, I mean, I need to not dive into a relationship with a 35 or 40-year-old female that in reality in five or eight years, she's gonna wake up and go, Oh, I'm dating an old guy. And I'm like, Yeah, I mean, eventually I'm gonna be 70. I mean, to me, that's old. So I'm going, okay, I'm aware of, you know, what what I'm gonna try to be looking for.

SPEAKER_03 48:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:50

And if they don't come along, guess what? I still got a social security check and uh I'm gonna be happy, I'm still be me.

SPEAKER_03 48:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:57

You know what I mean? So I I can be okay being, you know, alone.

unknown 49:02

Yeah.

Vulnerability and Connection

SPEAKER_02 49:02

All right. I like being alone. Do you? Oh yeah. Yeah, I'm comfortable being alone. You know, I and that's what I say, I don't I don't sit around and I'm not sad. All right. Your your apartment, right? I could sit here and just be happy. It's fine. All right, it's it's comfortable. It's my spot. Same with my house. It's good. You know, so let's say and that's what's how, you know, feelings are one of those things that I really had to, you know, and it may be a a guy thing. Could be a guy thing totally, because we know women like to really go on feelings, right? And dudes like to like shut them down and you know, move on. Let's just, oh, let's just go play some golf.

SPEAKER_04 49:40

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 49:41

You know, you're gonna go swimming, let's just go swimming. It's something I ain't really had to really pay attention to. And that's why, you know, when I first met you, I was like, oh, here, here, here's Natanya. Now she wants to sit down and ask questions. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not gonna have conversations with Natanya. Yeah, I'm gonna say, hello to Natanya, how you doing? Good to see you, glad to see you, right? Let me move on, right? Because she has more than one question, right? She wants to she wants to ask and know and right. But then, yeah, then that was, I mean, I was fresh out of the the divorce when we first met, you know what I mean? So slowly as I I saw that, you know, you as that person, I'm like, I'm like, oh yeah, I'm just gonna stay away from that. But ultimately, with me learning to practice, saying, Hey, would you like to go out to eat, or would you like to get a coffee? You know what I mean? I understood that I have to be vulnerable enough to take risk, right? And then I was like, well, wait a minute. Here's somebody who's gonna kind of make me uncomfortable, right, at a meeting of like asking me a question. You know what I mean? And it's always like a one-word question to like appealing, and I'm like, the hell? So so here we are. That's why we're sitting here because I am I'm risking sitting in front of a female who has a lot of questions, and and sincerely, I I say you sincerely like to, you know, and I don't know if you know that it's like helping people, all right, but I think that's what I gather from what we're doing is it ultimately opens the door up and the other people can do it. It's I mean, because I think I I made the joke about, you know, last time when we had our coffee before to talk about this, that you know, yeah, I want to sit down face to face, but I also want, you know, I want to take one of your bricks and give you one of mine, right? About pulling our walls down, right?

SPEAKER_04 51:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

And that's this is how it works, right? So I'm in that vulnerable mode of, hey, I understand I got some brick walls.

SPEAKER_03 51:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

Right. There I can look over them, I think, right? But it's still like, you know what, there's a lot of bricks that can be gone, and how do you get rid of them? You start being more vulnerable to have like real conversations with people. And if they're not being real back to you, then it's kind of like you're not getting, you know what I mean? Then that relationship's probably not, you know, meant to be, hey, I'm gonna give you a break, right? And you're not there yet, right?

Netanya 52:24

Well, it's meant to be, it's because I do you're right. I am like that. And I'm I don't part of it is curiosity, and I'm well we'll go back to science, because you said you're a Gemini. I'm a Scorpio.

SPEAKER_03 52:36

Yep.

The Power of Honesty and Openness

Netanya 52:36

And Scorpios are a lot about the transformation process, right? Which is death and rebirth and how we let go of what we were and start over and rise from the ashes and begin again and take what I learned and alchemize it into healing. So all of that space, I spend a lot of time in that space. I I enjoy it, I work on it for myself, and I think it's beautiful when other people do that. And that space of bricks for bricks is is it feels there's respect I have in that. There's um I have a lot of care for that, like knowing that you even wanted to sit down and talk at coffee.

SPEAKER_04 53:16

Right.

Netanya 53:17

Like understanding that that's you took a step forward, right? And I not only have respect for that, but just that's I want people like that in my life that are willing to look at things. And it doesn't, you don't have to be me and you know, do it all it all the time by any means. But um I was very grateful when you when you reached out about that and we decided to go do that in that space of and I try to be equally as vulnerable in return. Right. Right? It's a conversation, you know, and yes, I ask questions because I am curious, but I'm also willing to answer them.

SPEAKER_02 53:50

Exactly. Yeah. Well, yeah, you share, you know, it feels like a uh sponsor sponsor type conversation. You know, and you share this, we'll ask questions, we'll talk about, uh talk about mine and yours, and and so it's you know, which is which is awesome. Now that I'll tell you about I went on a uh a friend date with somebody. So this was, you know, so through the course, and I may have already told you this, but uh her and I went to eat and then we went to the meeting and we'd done that like twice. And then she broke up with her boyfriend, right? And caught me after the meeting, which I I may tear up on that, but she called me after the meeting and they broke up and she cried with me and her. I was like, it was it's kind of like that pat on the back, right? You know what I mean? That you go, wow, right? She was able to cry with me over a breakup of her relationship, right? Which which and I I think it's you know, over time when you want to be and you walk a path of being this person, at what point in time does somebody acknowledge that you have actually done some work and you are that safe person? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:14

All right.

SPEAKER_02 55:14

So anyway, that that does make me uh tear up a lot because it's and I and I shared it at uh the anniversary, right? About, you know, you learn to pat your own self on the back because we don't know. We're we're in our own worlds and you know, we love you, we do all that, right? We we're doing all that, but we don't know that, hey, you just done something really good and pat yourself on the back for it. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 55:37

Yeah.

The Journey of Healing and Helping Others

SPEAKER_02 55:37

So so anyway, that's that was powerful, right, for me. And that I that kind of stuff happens a lot to where it keeps you on the path if you have doubts, right? You may go, hey, well, I'll just, you know, it's time to act out in a manner, and it's like, no, it's not. You know, I mean, that that don't get you nowhere. That just gets you more stuff that you're going, dang, now I gotta make amends or you know, process that, you know, why did I act out of character? Right. So anyway.

Netanya 56:07

Well, and I've watched you, like I said, um just listening to you read at the anniversary meeting, um I've just watched you make choices that keep moving yourself in the direction of that. It's like maybe you don't have all the, you know, you're still learning, like you said. And that's that's the best part. Like being willing to show up and keep learning and asking questions and being that's what bravery is, right? In the space of um, you know, this is where I've been, this is all the stuff that's been behind me, and I got that, you know, I'm very clear on that, but who do I want to keep becoming? And to be able to say things and be a little bit vulnerable and and step out on that ledge a little bit and feel emotion or be with that in that space is admirable, right? That's what, like I said, I I I don't just ask anybody to do this for a reason, right? And that's I pick people there's many reasons that go into that, but part of that is um do I think you enhance my life? Right?

SPEAKER_04 57:12

Right.

Netanya 57:12

Can you show up for yourself and therefore show up for other people? Can you be a safe space? I've talked about this in meetings. Um but that men in general are not always a safe space for me emotionally, mentally. Um and so finding men in which when when that lands for me that you feel like a safe space is really incredible. Like that's a really big gift.

SPEAKER_04 57:37

It really is.

Netanya 57:38

And it um it matters.

SPEAKER_02 57:41

Matters a lot.

Netanya 57:42

Yeah.

unknown 57:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

A lot of stuff we do in recovery. I mean, it's it it's powerful stuff once you, you know, once you get it on the inside, and it's yours. Once you get it and it's yours, you're like, oh, I'm not giving that up.

SPEAKER_04 57:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:56

That that is the stuff that's you know, we talk about material stuff, right? But once, you know, you work the steps and you really get the gift that you go, whoa, right? Those are the ones you hold on to and you don't want to give them up, right? And you then you become aware of, right, here's opportunity that's being put out there to go, hey, maybe that's dressed up nice, right? Be like, yeah, but that's that's not the gift I got. You know, so I'm not giving it away.

Netanya 58:26

Well, and that's where, you know, when you get into your why, why do you do this? Why are why is this the life you chose? Why did I create a podcast? Why do I ask questions? Why do I why do I do things like that? Is like ultimately for me, it's always about helping people to help themselves heal. I can't I can't do it for you, but the journey that I've walked has allowed me a certain amount of privilege to get help and learn things. And whether that's through, you know, step work and programs, just having good people, there are a lot of good people in my life and therapy and stuff that I have paid for, right? To to work through that, that I have I've seen myself looking back, how much I've changed. And I'm that's such a beautiful gift. And I'm very just am proud of the work that I've done and also very grateful and and humble and blessed in the things that I've been given along that journey. And so my my like direction, the thing that drives me is always how do I give back? And how do I um do so in such a way that uses the gifts that I have to help people listen in on stuff like this? That's like, even if it's just one little thing that lands, that one thing can change someone's whole whole trajectory.

SPEAKER_02 59:42

Exactly. Yeah.

Netanya 59:44

Which is incredible. Like that's for me, that's that's what this is about.

SPEAKER_02 59:49

So it's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 59:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:52

I'm glad you said yes.

SPEAKER_02 59:53

I'm glad I said yes too. Now now you gave me a word to take to my therapist. Bravery. I'll be like, well, you know.

unknown 1:00:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:02

So and I'll do, I take I take certain words and I'd be like, okay, this is a word that, you know, I kind of was like, oh, okay.

unknown 1:00:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:09

Bravery is something. So it is.

Netanya 1:00:12

And the beautiful thing about it is that bravery can be in the tiniest of moments.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:17

Right.

Netanya 1:00:17

You know, we don't it doesn't have to be some big gallant.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

Yeah, it's not it's not an all-day man.

Netanya 1:00:22

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

Bra bravery is just one second.

Netanya 1:00:24

Yeah. But it's it's somewhere in bravery is a choice. And I think that's what makes it so great.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:31

Yeah.

Netanya 1:00:32

It's like you could go back, you could sort of step back into the safety zone.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:36

Right.

Netanya 1:00:36

And you chose to just lean over the edge a little bit. And that that takes something in here. Right? Um, and I've seen you do it more than once, and just pretty quick.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

Keep trying.

Netanya 1:00:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

Just for today.

Netanya 1:00:52

Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to Natania Allison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.