EP39: Breaking the Silence | Building a New Legacy by Design with Frankie Seeney

"Give yourself the opportunity to get it wrong."

In this episode, I sit down with Frankie Seeney for an unfiltered look at growing up in the "School of Hard Knocks" and what it actually takes to rebuild a life from the ground up. We dive into the heavy cost of generational emotional suppression—that inherited rule that says you have to swallow your pain, go to work, and never show a hint of struggle. We explore the life-changing realization that holding in your "mess" is like holding in a sickness: the longer it stays inside, the worse it gets.

Frankie gets honest about his journey in recovery, from identifying the "red flags" of isolation to the sacrifices required to heal his family. We discuss shifting from survival to a life of integrity—learning to respect the person in the mirror through the choices you make when no one is watching.

Inside this episode:

• The Sickness of Silence: Why "pain shared is pain halved" and how we are breaking the cycle of performative toughness to finally create a safe space for ourselves and our kids.
• Solitude vs. Isolation: How to tell the difference between healthy self-care and the dangerous habit of withdrawing to avoid the "festering" discomfort of life’s stressors.
• The Integrity of Choice: Why self-worth isn't about external success, but about the respect you gain for yourself when you choose the growth-oriented path—even when it's the hardest one to walk.

This conversation is a reminder that while the road to healing isn't linear, the upswing of your life is directly proportionate to your willingness to be uncomfortable sooner.

Full episode and show notes: netanyaallyson.com/episodes/39

Transcript

Reflections on Family and Loss

Netanya 0:00

There are moments in life that split us open. By unraveling sudden breaks, or truths, we didn't know we needed until we had no choice. This podcast is about those moments. It's about the turning points that change us. The things I wish someone had told me that I only understand in looking back. Come on in. You belong here, and we're gonna talk about all of it. I'm your host, Natanya, and this is what I didn't know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Frankie Sini. In this episode, we get into the heart of what it takes to move past a generational default and start building a new legacy on purpose. We talk about why holding in your struggles is like a sickness and why getting it out is the only way to heal, breaking the cycle of performative toughness to create a safe space for ourselves and our kids, and why giving yourself the grace to get it wrong is the only way to eventually get it right. Here we go. So I just, my grandfather, he passed away when I was 13 to this day. And I have been through recovery, I've been divorced, I've been through a lot of wounds and therapy and trauma and pain and healing. To this day, the single most painful day of my life was was when he died and I was 13. Like I can feel like as I just said it, I felt it come off and I was like, oh, I don't want to go there.

The Journey of Self-Discovery

SPEAKER_01 1:49

But it's so I very much feel that it's just, you know. And I hate like that's probably the the biggest thing that I hate my disease for is because the last years of his life, I could have been there. I had the means to be there financially. I had things arranged with work to where like if I needed to be there, I could have.

Netanya 2:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

And I didn't because I was just so focused on fulfilling a different need that I just we were very disconnected the last couple of years, and that's due to me.

Netanya 2:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

And it's looking back at like pictures of my siblings being out there with him for, you know, birthdays, Father's Day, um anniversary parties, he and my grandmother were together for like 60 and 40 years. Like a long, long time. Um, and if that's not like relationship goals, I don't know what is. Um you know, and I I kicked myself in the ass for like not taking advantage of that time that I could have spent with him. But hindsight's 2020.

Netanya 3:04

Yeah. And it's like it's hard to sit with the truth of it. Like you know that that's those are choices that you made and that there could you know what could have been if we could write a book on what could have been, you know, dear God. But and also like that's yours too, should you choose to go there on like where do you need to forgive yourself for because that's it's valid. Like that is a choice that you made, choices that you made. And I also firmly believe that even in my shittiest of times, that I did the best I could with where I was at and what tools I had and what I what I knew or didn't know. And it's like yeah, a lot of that led to things that I'm not proud of. And I think if me now stood and talked to her, like she couldn't heard me. You know, it's like people always say, like, what would you tell your former self? And I hate that question because I'm like, she couldn't heard she couldn't heard me.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Yeah. I was at such a point like back then that even future me talking to the I guess present me then, yeah. He wouldn't have listened.

Netanya 4:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

He he did not listen to anyone. He did whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted, and nobody could tell him otherwise. And like that's hurt a lot of my relationships with other folks over the years. Even with some of the people that are closest to me now.

Netanya 4:41

They most of them knew like if they pushed too hard, I would just cut them off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Because I I was just that way. Like, if you keep on pushing or trying to tell me how to live my life or whatever the case may be, like, I'm gonna cut you off. And a lot of that stems from my father. It's because he never let me live my life. My goal with my boys is while they're young, kind of teach them what I can about life and prepare them for life on their own. But at no point am I ever going to like cut their legs out and not let them make mistakes, even if I think that it might lead to a little bit of discourse in their life or some stumbles or whatever, like I have to let them make that mistake or they're not gonna learn from it, especially because I know that they come from me. I was very much the same way. Like I I just had to go do it. Ten different people could tell me the exact same thing, like this is gonna end bad, don't do it. But I was the one that like you touch the stove and it's hot and it burns you, I'm gonna go touch it again. Because I didn't learn my lesson the first time. I had to experience that school of hard knocks, right? Like I've got 10 degrees from from the school of hard knocks just because I've I've had to learn everything the hard way. And that's just a character defect of mine that I've had to work on. But I think it's also made a lot of the lessons that I've learned throughout life a lot more valuable because I've felt that that pain or that struggle or whatever the case may be. So like a lot of people sit in their rooms and say that they're grateful for XYZ and not downplaying that their gratitude by any means, but I'm extremely grateful for a lot of the things that I have now because I've had to claw my way to where I'm at now.

Embracing Change and Growth

Netanya 6:31

So I my mom used to say, like, you always have to learn everything the hard way. And she wasn't being mean about it. She was just like, Why do you know? Here we go. You gotta learn it the hard way. And I did. And then I can remember somewhere in the beginning of recovery when I was like, this is fucked. I can't keep doing this. I tried to control it so many different ways. I tried to find, I tried to be normal. Maybe I can drink like a normal person or whatever that means. Um and then just all the things that I ran into, like, I think if I was like running into the wall, I just hit a wall in so many different areas for so long that at whatever point I made that choice, I just remember thinking to myself, what if I don't have to learn everything the hard way? What if what if that's a story that I have lived by and owned and believed and has been true? What if I don't have to do that anymore? And what if I can make different choices or listen or see when things are coming towards me and like stop the train before it goes off the tracks and maybe shut up and learn from people, you know, what if I can what if I don't have to keep on that same trajectory? And I watched so many people for years be like, this is the way I am, you know, and I was like, Well, can I change? Is that an option? And somewhere in there I thought, well, I'm gonna try. And so it's not always, and I'm still I still run into stuff sometimes, but a lot of times these days I'll see it before it gets here, whatever the thing is, and make a different choice, or I I try to address things in the uncomfortableness. That was a lot of it was I didn't want to deal with the thing, and so I would avoid until I couldn't possibly not deal with it, and it was so bad that it's like you're on fire. And I'm either like I was in the hospital, you know, first with recovery, or I got divorced probably three years after I should have because I couldn't speak, I didn't know how to self-advocate, I didn't know how to do anything. So I just waited until I was almost dead to do something about it. And I just I couldn't, I couldn't deal with things sooner. And so I was like, what if I became a person that can deal with things? And so those different spaces of like, I can do hard things, I can talk about this, I can be uncomfortable. My willingness to be uncomfortable has been so imperative in my growth and healing that I think the trajectory, the upswing of how much better my life has gotten is directly proportionate to my willingness to be uncomfortable sooner.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Yeah, and I feel like for me personally, I feel like that's where like true wisdom lies. Like I can I'm not perfect with it, but like nowadays I can tell when I'm in a situation where like I need to do something or say something or something along those lines. And it's like, as for me, what was so hard about that was you know, I I was still in the era of a young man growing up being told that men don't show their feelings, men don't talk about their emotions, men don't talk about what's going on in their heads. You just chew it up, you eat it, you go to work, you provide for your family, you come home, you protect your family, like that's it. You don't show weakness, you don't show vulnerability emotions, like you don't have those, those don't exist for you. Like that's that's it. But now, like I can I can identify, and sometimes it's a little bit after the fact, so I'm still, you know, work in progress. But um like the last two weeks I've I've come home and not been in such a great mood and in some ways kind of like lashed out, so to speak, because I wasn't I wasn't getting what I needed out of my recovery. Um I kind of lost the magic for the meeting that I was going to regularly. And I was talking to my sponsor about this, and that was the first time I actually had the conversation with him, and it took me two weeks of like being out of whack to figure it out, but I identified the problem, whereas before I would have just kept continuing on that same perpetual cycle of like going to the meeting, not getting what I'm needing out of it or not sharing or whatever, and then going home and acting like an asshole to people that didn't deserve it because it's not their fault. And then he and I had the conversation, and like now I have a game plan. I know what I need to do, or at least try to do to course correct, you know, and uh and that started with like, okay, we're gonna try some different meetings, we're gonna try celebrate recovery, we're gonna try, you know, whatever the kid just change it up because what I'm doing right now is not working, and I need to implement some sort of change. And, you know, it happens, people get stagnant in their recovery, the same routine cycle day in, day out, and I'm very much a creature of habit, so I really try to avoid change. Um, but that's also something that I've really had to work on. Like every single day I'm faced with having to make a change, whether that be at work in my personal life, whatever. So like I gotta quit crying about it and just do something about it. You know, so that was uh, like I said, I feel like that's kind of where wisdom lies. Like I love sitting and talking with older folks uh because they just have these stories of situations like that. And they I feel like generations before ours were more generations of action. If that makes any kind of sense.

Netanya 12:32

It does.

The Importance of Community and Support

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Like my grandfather didn't just sit around and and wait and wait and wait for something to happen. Like he understood I am responsible for implementing whatever change if there's something in my life that I dislike. Nowadays, these young kids, they they're entitled, they feel like they don't have to work for anything, or that change is just gonna magically happen. They don't have to put in any work for it, you know, and that's not the case. If you don't like your circumstances, you are responsible for changing them. And that's I don't want to say it was necessarily like a realization of mine, but it was I've been more active in like recognizing what needs to change, coming up with an action plan and actually executing it versus just talking and talking and talking, like be about it, don't talk about it, so to speak, you know. Um and that's just kind of how I've lived my life the last year, and it's produced a lot of really good results. You know, I wound up in a in an organization where I've made the most I've ever made in my career, and I've got almost two decades in this industry, and um but that took feeling uncomfortable, like sitting with that and processing that, and then deciding how I wanted to implement change in my life in order to achieve what it was that I was trying to achieve. Like I'm coming up on 18 months, and that's the longest period of clean or sober time that I've had since I was 13 years old. But that didn't just happen because I sat around and waited for a change.

Netanya 14:14

Well, and I see people do that, you know, and we get the term dry drunk, right? For a reason, also, is that like not picking up substances does not equate recovery or healing. And that that's also a choice. You can you can just not use like I've seen it, I've seen people do it for for years and be successful in the fact that you didn't pick up again. But it's such a disservice to yourself because you're not gonna change anything about you or who you are. And in that space, resentment builds. Like, well, they said this is good, but it's like if you don't take actionable steps, whatever those are, whether that's a 12-step program, or there's so many different ways you can go about healing and recovery. And I get really passionate about that because I think a lot of people do really well with a system and a structure and steps, so to speak. And some people don't. And neither is better. They're just different ways of functioning. Or, like you said, this might work for a little while. You might be in a season of this group or these people or whatever, and then things change in your life personally or with your wife or home or, you know, work, and your schedule changes, and then that meeting doesn't work out anymore. And then what do you do? You know, and that's happened to me several times where um I've had to shift my life based on the season that it's in and ask myself new questions. And what do I do now? Or sometimes you just get bored or it's not fulfilling, or you know, I came from before here. I was in a small town in Colorado, and there is only one meeting a night.

unknown 15:48

Wow.

Netanya 15:48

That's it, because it's that small. And so the tendency to hear the same story over and over again is very high, right? From the same people that will repeat, and lots of people don't, you know, but you do get the guy that's been around for a long time that doesn't have anything else to say or hasn't done much work or is still doing the same things they've been doing for the last 15 years. And stagnation can happen, right? And resentment builds in those spaces. And so that space of how do I be intentional about this? How do I make it fun or creative? Like think of it as a creative experience that this is a life I'm building. And I don't, it doesn't have to stay the same either. As the seasons move, your kids will get older, right? That will have different things required of you. And then how do you want to move? But instead of blaming other people or this is your problem or your fault, or this isn't work for me anymore, how do I stay open and honest? Just about, okay, well, it's not, it's not, it's not doing the thing for me anymore. Why is that? Can I ask some questions? What is mine here? Where do I need to take responsibility? Like you said, am I sharing? Am I talking about stuff? I've seen people, I love when someone will say in a meeting, someone did this the other day, and they'll like own, I've been in here for weeks and I haven't said anything. Because they're kind of calling themselves out of like, this part of your job is to show up when you're here. And it doesn't mean you have to share every meeting, right? But if it's been weeks on end and that like gremlin is eating you alive and you're not talking about it somewhere, that's on you. We don't know. I can't help you if I don't know what's in there. No, you know, and whether you go to a sponsor or a friend or a family member or pick up the phone or what whatever, you know, like there is a level of ownership and responsibility that comes along with action, like you said, in order to implement and move things intentionally in a way that's supportive for you.

Taking Responsibility for Recovery

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Yeah. And I, you know, that's that's kind of exactly where I've been the last few weeks. Like life has been extremely chaotic the last month. Um I have been bounced around from job site to job site with my company. They've kind of identified my skill set and they've utilized that in a bunch of different ways on several different sites. I mean, I got sent to West Virginia, I got sent to a job site right up the road. I I'm now managing$23 million in contracts at Vanderbilt by myself. You know, I finally just got help on Monday. Uh, we had a new superintendent start, and you know, I've had a lot on my plate the last few weeks, and that's kind of been like the space that I've lived in was I was showing up to meetings, I had all these frustrations because you know, I've had my my struggles at work the last few weeks, but that's also translated to home and created some issues at home. And I haven't been sharing about that. And part of it I'll say 90% of it is on me. The other 10% uh the meeting that I've been going to most regularly has grown quite a bit, which is great. That's the goal, right? Is share the message, you know, get as many people into recovery as we can, share that experience, strength, and hope. But it's grown so much that it's kind of like plain Jeopardy, right? Like I gotta smack the buzzer in order to get a word out edgewise. Because the meeting's just grown so much and it's become very popular. Like the Sunday night meeting used to be small candlelight type meeting, very, you know, a more intimate setting than most of the meetings that I've gone to throughout the week. Um, but even that's grown exponentially from from when it first started. And it's hard to get a word in edgewise. You know, like you gotta be as as somebody's finishing up, you gotta be saying, Hey, I'm Frankie, I'm an addict, and then go right into the chair, you know, and it's I know what you're talking about.

Netanya 20:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

And it's so it's become difficult.

Netanya 20:10

So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

But I would leave the meeting so frustrated that I wouldn't even try to talk to somebody after the meeting about it.

Netanya 20:18

There it is.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Exactly. So there's my part in it, right? Um so it took a couple weeks uh of just being frustrated and beating my head against the wall. But then like eventually the the network that I've built within the fellowship has been reaching out. Like they can tell something is off. And that's what I love about the fellowship and and what I didn't get the first go round at this whole recovery thing. It's like you said uh being intentional earlier, like I had to be intentional about creating and nurturing relationships within the fellowship because if I don't, and I just keep people at arm's length or keep things surface level, they're not gonna get to know me well enough to know that something's off of Frankie. Right. Right. Um so over the last year, I've that's kind of been my biggest focus is developing those relationships and nurturing those and sharing with people more in-depth about my personal life, which is not typical of me. Like that's so far from who I used to be. I did not share about anything ever. But people started texting, like, hey, are you okay? What's going on? Blah, blah, blah. And eventually it took a couple weeks, but I eventually started like, hey, this is what's going on. Like, I haven't been in a very good headspace, whatever. And ultimately that led to me identifying the problem and knowing what to do to implement change and and discussing that that change with other people's counsel, because Frankie making decisions by himself is not a good idea. It's just I'm full of bad ideas. Um which is again something that I've had to really work on and focus on since I've been in recovery was growing up, I was told stop and think so many times. Like stop and think, stop and think, stop and think. And I that created such a resentment between me and my father, and I could not stand it. So eventually, like I I just became such an impulsive person. I wouldn't think about anything, I would just do it and deal with the consequences later. You know, and I was always told, you make the mess, you clean it up. So like when I found myself in these situations, I wouldn't talk to people because they didn't help make the mess. Like Frankie's decisions caused him to be in this position. So he's got to figure out how to clean it up and get himself out of it. And I think that's been like the hardest part for me is trying to reach out when I don't know what to do versus just trying to figure out my own solution because history shows that doesn't work for me. Um but then also finding people that I trust enough and trust their opinions and their advice enough to be able to implement change that they may suggest was another thing. Like that was extremely hard for me to do. Like I don't I have a very hard time trusting people because the very people that were supposed to like love me and protect me the most from the evils of life were the very people doing that. You know what I mean? So it was really difficult, and that's that's been my biggest hurdle over this last year is letting people in and trusting people enough to really take their opinions to heart and try to use that information to make some sort of change or decision or whatever in my life.

Netanya 23:56

So I do feel like a lot of people have that with the the like I have to do it alone, whether it's whether it's self-punishment of like I I did the things I have to get out of it, or they don't want to be a burden on someone else, like you already have so much to deal with.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

I really feel that.

Netanya 24:14

Yeah.

The Power of Sharing and Vulnerability

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Yeah. Um especially with my sponsors, because they sponsor multiple people. And so I don't want to be that one that's calling them all the time, like, hey, this is what's wrong, this is what's wrong, this is what's wrong. And you know, I'll sit in meetings and I'm listening to other people's shares, and this sounds really shitty of me, but I'm like, man, that's like that's what's eating at you right now. Like, brother, that's minuscule, but then I have to catch myself because it's like, it's not my recovery, that's their recovery, right? You know, um that may seem like a big deal to them because their circumstances are different than mine, right? Maybe they have gotten quite a bit more clean time and like this this one little thing is really throwing them off because they've done so well in recovery, and I'm still a baby in it. You know, I'm a little over a year, and I've had to like take that comparison out of things. You know what I mean? Like it's not it's not a pissing contest. It's everybody's recovery is their own. And I have to remember, like, these people are in this program because they do want to help other people. So like I I have to remind myself all the time, like, hey, if I call my sponsor, I'm not burdening him. Like, that's what he signed up for. He knows, like, he took me on knowing that I will be calling at some point or another to, you know, share about life or whatever troubles I'm having or whatever the case may be, like that's what he signed up for.

Netanya 25:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

He he knows what his role is in my life. And and even with the friends that I've made throughout recovery, like, I tell them all the time, if you need anything, call me. But then I don't do the same thing. And uh again, it's like talking with other folks, I hear some of their problems and the things they have going on. And people have a lot on their plate, and I don't want to add to that, but I also learned like a pain shared is a pain halved. You know, so even if I just share it, like that's relieving some of that burden that I'm carrying around.

Netanya 26:18

Yeah. That's a very real thing. I I don't remember when I figured that out, that like I carry it literally in my body. Yeah. And so for me, usually either writing it out or talking it out, and and I will talk, like share in a meeting where people are present, I will talk in my car alone to, you know, whoever is listening, I will write things out. But the getting it out of me, even the most bullshit stuff that it lives in my head. Um, the lies I tell myself, the stories I tell myself, the thing I'm hooked on, I can't get off of whatever, like writing it out somehow helps me release it. So I'm not carrying that at the very least anymore, just by getting it out of my body. But then also I've had that. It's a term I learned from Brene Brown, which she called comparative suffering, suffering, which is comparing essentially the suffering of you, what you're dealing with versus me, and like better or worse than. And it's so not helpful on any realm because what you're going through is valid and true and real for you. Right. And just because I may think less of it, or that it's like, oh my God, that's so bad, you know, um, that that is any more or less valid than my suffering is not helpful for either of us. We we make judgments and assumptions and put people down, right? And it's like it's cause of separation. And we're all we're all trying to heal, right? And it, I'm not even talking about just recovery or rooms. I'm talking people in general. We're all trying to get better and trying to learn stuff. And that space of I can remember when I was little, just sort of being a little kid and looking up at adults walking around and they were having a hard time, right? And without going into detail of it, like I had multiple, I had two sets of parents and they were all struggling for different things in my brain at like six years old, right? Um, and so somewhere in there, I took on a belief or learned that I can't take up space because I don't, I don't want to add to that. I don't want to make it harder. I don't want you to deal with me on top of all the things that you're dealing with. And so I just wouldn't speak or make myself small or like I'm good, right? Like, I'm good, don't worry about me, whatever. Um, and so that that was been a process of being an adult of like learning that it's okay that I can take up space, that I am valuable and worthy, like already as I am. I don't have to be more or less, that my value isn't in what I do for people. That was a hard one. That like output equals my value. So if I'm running around X, you know, doing X, Y, Z thing, that I'm more valuable than if I'm not. That was hard. Because, like, you mean I'm just enough as I am. Yeah. Um, but that whole space of of self-advocating from a place of just saying, hey, I'm struggling, or I'm I'm not sure what to do with this. You don't even have to be struggling. It's just like I this is a mess. Do you have any thoughts? Right. You know? Um, but all of that using my voice has been a game changer. And every time I do it, and whether it's um in a recovery setting or at work or just calling a friend or writing it out, like I said, I always feel better. Always. I don't think I've ever written something out and been like, well, that wasn't worth it, you know. Um, but all of that has been such a practice and that we talked about responsibility earlier, like taking responsibility for myself, not only just in the outcomes or actions of consequences of what I do, but how do I preempt that so I don't, so I don't, my train doesn't go so far off the track. How do I take care of that? Because taking care of me is a service to everyone else. When I take care of myself and I'm good, that means my interaction with you is going to be good, my interaction at work's gonna be good. I'm gonna be able to show up for my team. I'm not gonna be bitey or snippy. So that's like all of those spaces and whatever that is, that's an individual experience, right? What it means to take care of Frankie, whether it's mentally, physically, emotionally, where do you need rest? Where do you need just good food or whatever it is that that fuels you so that you are energized and can show up for your best self, whether it's sleep, I'm a huge baby about sleep. I always go out after meetings and I never go because I don't everyone gives me shit. I'm like, I want to go to bed. Yeah. But it's I know that when I stay out too late and I don't get enough sleep, I am cranky in the morning. And it's not, it's not kind because it runs into the like bleeds through the rest of my day. And so, but that that space of not measuring myself against anyone else. And it says I don't care if you have 20 years or 20 days, your experience is valid. And I'm not helping me by judging you. I'm not getting any better by making yours smaller. Right. But that's a whole practice that I've had to work through of speaking and knowing that I'm worthy of being here, of talking about things that getting help from me means I'm helping everyone else. That that's that's a ripple effect experience. And so, like even your sponsor, he knows what he signed up for. He said yes to you. Yeah. Right. And that's his job, right? And if he over I'm just making this up, right? If so many people take on too many sponsor sponsees, that's theirs to navigate. Where did I say yes? I should have said no.

unknown 31:48

Yeah.

Netanya 31:48

And what am I gonna do about that? You know, but unless he said that to you, then he said yes to you, which means and you're also here, I'll throw this at you. In a different light, you're robbing him of the opportunity to be a sponsor.

Sharing Experiences: The Importance of Connection

The Journey of Trust

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Yeah. Yeah, there's yeah, there was a couple things that you said. So, like one of them just kind of backtracking a little bit where you were talking about just getting it out, right? So that didn't make sense to me until I was having a conversation with this fella, and he was like, you know, when you get the flu or you know, some sort of illness, whatever, and you're like throwing up or whatever, he was like, if you hold it in, you're just making yourself sicker. He was like, But you know, you see people getting sick, and the person that's there with them is saying, get it out, get it out. You know, you'll feel better, just get it out. And for whatever reason, that, you know, uh what's the word I'm looking for here? Analogy stuck with me and it made sense. Like, the longer I keep this in, the more like what we have is a sickness. And the longer that I keep the things in that were fueling my sickness, the worse off I'm gonna be. Like I'm not gonna get any better if I don't start getting this stuff out. And like from that point forward, I had zero problem sharing. Like I was ready to go to HI and do all this stuff, you know? And now that's one of my favorite things to do. It's like I go to crossover, uh, which is through Cumberland Heights. Um the alumni that have graduated through the program, whether it be male or female, whatever, it doesn't matter, can come back on Friday nights and sit with the current inpatient residents and share their kind of experience with life after treatment. Um And that's been a big thing for me. And I'd like, I'd rather miss Homebrew before I miss crossover, just because like those those guys need that the experience, strength, and hope, so to speak. And like I've talked to other guys that they're like, oh man, I I can't go to crossover. Like, I don't have anything to offer. I was like, brother, I was like, they'd rather hear from the guy that just left yesterday than the guy that left 20 years ago. They they just would. Um But yeah, that whole getting it out thing was was really hard for me, but it goes back to something else that you said, um, talking about like looking up at all these adults and and seeing that they were struggling. So my father was, again, very much raised in that area of like men don't talk about what they got going on. So like I remember being four, five, six years old and asking my dad, what's wrong? You know, this, that, or the other, whatever. It if he had something going on or if it was like money stuff or whatever the case may be. And every time I would ask him that, he's like, Don't you ever ask me that. Like, that's none of your business. Like, you're the child. You know, so it's kind of been how I've responded to life as an adult. Like people ask me what's wrong or whatever, and my immediate response is it's none of your business. Um so just like watching that as a my entire childhood and and being accustomed to that, you know, it just became muscle memory. Like if I have something going on, I'm not gonna share it. But, you know, it's again, it goes back to that, like getting not getting it out makes me sicker. Yeah. And that's now like you could ask me anything and I I will share on any aspect of my life if it means you might get something out of it. And it's not I don't do it because I'm looking for some sort of pat on the back or anything like that, but I wished I had asked more questions early on, but I was so accustomed to that it's none of your business response. And yeah, that's that's been a a big one for me is is get and I had to start with like writing things out because I didn't trust anybody enough to actually talk about it. Um so like for the longest time, like my higher power was a journal. Because that's where I could get my thoughts out and just wait for the world to kind of answer me, so to speak. So I it started with a journal and then it became the group and and sharing in a group and getting those answers there and just you know, using that journal as my higher power and like forcing myself to get it out, and I've just kind of fallen into that season of stagnation and not doing that anymore. And I've I've felt it negatively impact like my recovery, my life, and like that's why you you had mentioned somebody calling themselves out in a meeting, and that's I had to do that not long ago on my fourth step because I just wasn't where I wanted to be. So I had to create accountability for myself by sharing it in a meeting so people would ask me about it, and it would force me to like, okay, you need to get your ass back in the books, get these steps done and move forward.

Creating Safe Spaces for Sharing

Netanya 37:15

So Well, and you can you can not do that. You you have that choice, you can not say anything and keep coasting along. But it's like, then why are you here? Right. And I don't mean that in a mean way. It's just like if you're not moving forward or growing or changing or learning into something, usually you're either in stagnation or going backwards. Yeah. You know, and I don't think most of us want to go backwards. Um But then you you said something else I want to touch on, which was when you're talking about trust, right? That's valid of finding people and spaces that you trust. Because, you know, um, I was talking to a different friend the other day, and he was talking about that he doesn't open up a lot because in the past it's been weaponized. It's been used against him, or people tell someone else. And that's where, yes, in rooms we talk about what you hear, here, stays here, and all of that. But it's like as long as you're just human, you're out talking to something and don't realize it. And so finding people and being intentional about who you share what with. When you share in a meeting, I just assume anything I share in a meeting, I have to be okay with that anybody might know. Yeah. Right? I just for me, that's how I share in a meeting. But anything more personal, something I'm still that might be raw that I'm not through yet, that's still very active for me, that's a shorter list of people I will pick up the phone or talk to. And it's like I can remember telling somebody not that long ago, but I think everything, to the best of my knowledge and my memory, I have talked about everything I can remember that has been awful or shame-inducing, or things that you know, all of the wounds of all the past things, everything I can I've talked about somewhere. I have not talked about all of it in the same place ever. Yeah. And that has been therapy, step work, sponsors, friends, sponsor, you know, um all these different spaces. But it's like some of them are really vulnerable. Yeah. Or really gonna throw me into some emotion. You know, we were talking earlier, I got emo like that's still live and still active in me, and it's been decades. Yeah. And that's sacred to an extent. And so who and where I give that to or open that with, you know, I want that to be cared for. And I try to give that same respect to people in return. I had a different friend the other day talk about some things that were really vulnerable for him. And when we were done, he said, Is it okay if can you just keep this between me and you? And I said, Yeah, you have my word. Right. Because that's that was a really big deal. I want to be the kind of person that's a safe space for people to talk to. And I'm honored that he shared some stuff with me. And also I take that very seriously to continue that because I want, you know, that story that you grew up with. You don't talk about those things. I want to change that story. Yeah. Right. And whether it's for men or all the different versions and variations that we learned that we had to clam up and shut up or couldn't be whoever we were, that that's not okay. And in order to be part of the change, that means actively practicing all of that.

Recognizing Patterns: Self-Reflection and Accountability

SPEAKER_01 40:34

Yeah. And I think, you know, like you and I have kind of talked uh not necessarily in depth so much, but the last couple weeks, you know, I'll see you on Sundays or whatever, and we'll talk about things. And one of the things that you consistently say to me is, you know, make sure you're leaving that space for yourself or whatever. And that comes back to knowing when you need to talk to somebody. Like that's creating space for yourself and building the right relationships with the right people in order to be able to get those things out and having the discernment to know, like, hey, like I can trust this guy, or no, I can't. Like one of my buddies, his his sponsor, he was this guy's only sponsee, and he shared some stuff in his four step with him, and his sponsor went around like blabbing this stuff to other people. Like, so I can I can see why in recovery folks are hesitant to talk to folks, like especially early on, because he's not very far along in his recovery and he's already experienced something like that. Like, thankfully for me, I haven't had that experience, but at the same time, there hasn't been a whole lot that I've shared with anybody that I was like afraid of it getting out. Yeah. Um one of the biggest things for me was like I've been bottling up so much over the years and not sharing it with anybody, like family, friends, anyone, just carrying it myself, that now I don't have a problem sharing it with anybody. Um, but that was that took a lot of practice. But especially in early recovery, I know how distrusting I was of people and to have something like that happen, I could see how that would make you go backwards and make it hard for you to create space for yourself to to be able to get the stuff out that's bothering you. And like that's something that I've I still am working on because I'm, you know, it took me a couple weeks to finally start saying, like, hey, I'm not okay. Um I sent a friend a song that uh that just kind of popped up on a random playlist one day. Um and it said something to the effect of like Ask me how it goes, I'll say I'm fine, but under my skin I'm not alright. Um and then it rewords it and repeats it, and basically it just says that on the outside, like everything might seem okay, but if you look close, I'm not doing okay at all. And that's kind of where the space that I've lived in the last couple of weeks, because I haven't created that space for myself or taught. And the person that I've become knows better than that. But it's one of those things where like you slip into old patterns that that fast before you even realize it. And I'm so thankful that I've had people like reach out to me to pull me out of that because it would have taken me down again. Like that's exactly what happened when my grandfather passed away. Is I wasn't talking about it. Like my wife didn't even know that my grandfather had passed away. I had kept it to myself for the first couple days. And luckily, him actually passing, like I was at a point in my recovery that I didn't let it take me under. But like the when I found out he was sick, I didn't share it for months. And that's exactly what took me right back out. Was just that grief that I wasn't willing to deal with and the fact that I wasn't there spending time with him and not sharing or getting that sickness out of me. It just dragged me right back under again.

Netanya 44:17

How do you feel about your current seat and like obviously we talked about you calling yourself out on it and moving forward? How do you feel about like because you you and I have talked about carrying a lot? Yeah. Right. In many different aspects. And there's lots of reasons that that feels necessary or true or valid because of the life that you live and responsibilities and who you want to keep becoming. Right. And how do you keep checking yourself to make sure that you are, you know, what are the things that you need in order to create space for yourself around all those things when your life is so full?

The Balancing Act: Recovery and Family Life

SPEAKER_01 44:55

Yeah. That's one that like I recognize it in my behavior before anything else, is if uh go to work and I'm kind of like edgy with my guys because like right now I have a crew of almost 20 people and some of them I'm closer with than others, and so you know, so some of them can kind of tell when I'm off. But like that's that's usually like my first red flag is if my guys at work are noticing it, like, okay, you need to check yourself, right? And then the other one is like how I'm interacting at meetings, or you know, and I'm sure you and several others have noticed, like I've been leaving meetings before it's even over with. Um that's not like me either. Uh I've been less willing to talk to people and so on. I've just kind of put myself in isolate not not solitude, right? Like there's a difference between solitude and isolation. And that was something that I had to learn as well. And here recently I've been telling myself, I just need time to myself. Like that's just my solitude. But I've been lying to myself, like I've been isolating myself because I've been not willing to share the things that are going on with me. And I'm not really sure why that is. I didn't I haven't quite pinpointed that yet. Um, because none of it is anything that's like shameful. It's just it's just been a lot, you know. Um But then the last one is like how I'm interacting with my kids. I've got three boys. Um and anybody who has kids like knows your your kids are your whole world, right? You absolutely love your kids, but there's days where your kids try your patience so hard just to see what they can get away with sometimes, you know, and it's uh like when I find myself being short with them, like that's kind of like my last red flag where it's like, hey, pump the brakes, you gotta check yourself. Like you're you're bringing this stuff home now and you're creating that same toxic environment you grew up with. Yeah, it's time to talk to somebody. And fortunately, that hasn't happened much since I've been in recovery, but these last couple weeks, it has led to that. And you know, so I'm again super grateful that I've had people reaching out because that kind of helped me that that was the nudge I needed to like create the space for myself. Like, hey, I need to go talk to some people. Um just recently went and sat down with an elder from my church yesterday, actually. Like my marriage has not been in good shape. It's it's been extremely neglected. Um a lot of that's on me. At the same time, it's it's been both sides, but went down and and sat with an elder and his wife and had to get this stuff out, you know, and it's it wasn't an easy conversation. I was extremely uncomfortable, and then listening to my failures from from the person that I'm supposed to be like supporting and be strong for and help raise our family with, listening to my shortcomings from her perspective, that was not easy to listen to. But again, like now I'm here talking about that. I've talked to other people about that all since this conversation happened yesterday, but it's because I recognized that pattern that I've been in the last couple weeks where I haven't been speaking about things when they've been coming um coming up. I've just let them fester and fester and fester until finally I have to say something. And I knew if I didn't talk about that when it was fresh, it was gonna just make me sicker. Um So it's things like that that are kind of like my warning to like, hey, you need to create some space for yourself. It's it's getting too far and you've been neglecting yourself, and because you've been neglecting yourself, it's now affecting the people around you. You know, you had spoken on that earlier, like I have to do this for me. So I'm the best version of me for the others in my life. And you know, people say all the time, like you have to do your recovery for you and not for other people. But it's kind of a double-edged sword, right? Like if I if I neglect my recovery and I neglect myself, eventually that spills over into my relationships with others and it makes me a miserable son of a bitch to be around.

Netanya 49:31

Yeah. And that's like it's so important to recognize that, especially for people that do things only for other people, right? And the the nurturers, the givers, the you know, all the people that we care about. That's beautiful and not helpful if you if you don't understand that you need both. Yeah. And that every time you that it doesn't make you selfish to take that time. And there is a difference, and you've already named it in yourself of the accountability, the self-accountability. Do I just need solitude or am I avoiding? Yeah. And that's that's a hard dance because sometimes you can't tell. And that's when you pick up the phone. Hey, this is what's happening. Can you, can you like I I met a friend yesterday for coffee, and her and I were talking about some things in her life, and I said some stuff, and she was so uncomfortable. But I was like, you knew when you called me for coffee, you know what I'm like. This wasn't going to be a feel-good conversation. And what her what she said was, I know that's why I keep people like you around me. Right. And I value that equally. I keep people in my life that call me on my shit or that will say things like, okay, get off the floor, go deal with your life, stop doing a thing. And thankfully, most of them are also funny and loving and do so gently for the most part. But sometimes it's a hand slab of like, get your shit together, you know better. Yeah. But I I try to keep people around me that hold me to that accountability, that know me, like you said. And it's a two-way street because I also have to let them know me. And that's that dance that we're in.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

When the another thing that I've kind of found helpful too is like sometimes as human beings, we just want to be heard, right? We don't necessarily want an opinion. So like sometimes I have to preemptively set the stage for that conversation where it's like, hey, I'm calling you because I need to vent. I need to get some stuff out. My head's not in the right spot. Can you just hear me out? Like I don't I'm not calling necessarily because I need your opinion or your your advice or whatever the the case may be. I just need to talk. And I think that's an extremely healthy way of communicating some of your frustration. Because sometimes like some of the things that come up in my life, I don't necessarily need advice on. Like I I already know what I need to do.

Netanya 51:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

Um, just like I felt the stagnation in my recovery, so I opened up and shared about it. But that was a case where like I was fine with criticism. But like knowing when it's like, hey, I just need to talk and vent, or like, hey, I'm open to some criticism here. Like I what what can you offer me here? What kind of advice can you give me here? And and distinguishing the two different situations can sometimes be difficult. And I gotta remember when I do set the stage and open it up for criticism, I have to be open to that because that's what I asked for. I can't be a tit and go whining about it after the fact because I asked for it, you know. Um and that's that's a fine line to walk to. It's it all comes back to just knowing my patterns and knowing my behaviors. And it's taken a really long time to identify those things within me and the person that I've become now. Like I I clearly know when I need to ask somebody for advice or when I need to say, like, hey, just hear me out.

Netanya 53:04

I try to do that on the on the opposing end of like, if you call me, I will say, do you want advice or do you want me to just listen for the same reason because I've been in that, in that space. And sometimes it'll change, right? Sometimes someone just wants to vent, and then I will say, Do you want to know what I think at the end? And they'll be like, Yeah, you know. And then we'll go into that or whatever. But it's also understanding that like I can take advice. I don't want to say with a grain of salt because that's such a archaic term, but that it doesn't mean you have to do it either. And you can have the utmost respect for the person giving it to you. And sometimes it might be like not for me, not right now, giving yourself permission. Again, not letting yourself off the hook to not do anything, but just honoring and owning, I might not be ready for that yet.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

You know, or I was just about to say, like, at the same time, we can't be like trying to control the situation about declining that, like, no, I'm not gonna do that. You know, it's like making sure we still have the willingness and being honest with ourselves enough to be like, okay, their advice was sound. I can I can take that under advisement and make my decision, like having that information. That's that's a big part of it too, because I find myself like listening to people sometimes. I'm like, you're right. But I don't want you to be right. So I'm not going to implement any of what you just said, you know. But then like a week later, I'm like, no. All right, you're right. All right, where do we go from here?

Netanya 54:41

But that's also such a beautiful journey. Cause I don't think um we were talking about rediscovery a little bit earlier that that in the beginning, I didn't do that at all. I was I didn't want to hear anything, I didn't want to change because it requires effort and it's hard and uncomfortable and all those things. And I think somewhere in there when you start to get results from doing the thing and being like, oh, I see that that went differently than it would have gone the 85 other times that I did it, you know, because I did take that, that I learned that dance a little bit better of self-awareness and calling myself on my shit, calling other people when I'm not, you know, but we made that sound real easy right there. And it's it's a it's a journey. Um, but I think it's worth it.

SPEAKER_01 55:31

Yeah, and that's kind of what kills me about you hear people share in meetings and like celebrations, especially. They're like, oh man, recovery is easy. Fuck you. No, it is not. Like, oh yeah, it's easy. You just you do the steps and you do the next right thing, and your life is gonna be tremendously better. Like, that's great. Yes. It it all boils down to like do the steps, do the next right thing, work your program. Sure, at face value, that's easy. But people have traumas and stuff like that, and trying to rip the band-aid off of that stuff, that's not easy, you know. And trying to learn yourself after lying to yourself for so many years, like you start to believe your own bullshit. Yes. You know what I mean? So like trying to decipher what's true and what's not within your own head. I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that were as sick as I was, but like I believed a lot of my own bullshit.

Netanya 56:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

And getting into recovery and trying to sort out the truth and like who I really am was not easy. And I had to revisit all the trauma and things that I've been through. I mean, I was getting beat like a grown man at four years old. You know, I put through a wall, couldn't figure out how to tie my shoes, got my ass beat for that. You know, uh, somebody else stole my old man's tools, and he thought it was me because I used to use his tools and like tear my bike apart, put it back together, stuff like that. And a bunch of it went missing. He came home and he literally chased me around the house. This man's six foot five, white as a door, and I'm four years old, running around the house, pissed in my pants, locked myself in the bathroom that he tore down just to get to me. Like, revisiting stuff like that's not easy, you know. So I just I don't know. It frustrates me when people say, Oh, it's just so easy. Just do the steps.

unknown 57:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

Yeah. Okay. Well.

The Complexity of Recovery: A Non-Linear Journey

Netanya 57:29

Well, and I always talk about how fucked up it is that we have you literally you you get stripped away all of your coping mechanisms, the substances that you use to not to not feel pain, and then get asked to go into your deepest wounds without anything to hold on to. And and that's where I think I I did lean on other things and people and friends. And like it, like you still have coping mechanisms. You just, they're just different than what they used to be. Hopefully they're healthier. I read a lot more now and watch TV and cook a lot. And, you know, some people call them hobbies. Like they do help me. But I would, I would not say that it's easy. I would say I I talk about things being a process and a journey almost to the fact that it's annoying. And I hate that I say it so much. But it's just true that it when we talk about the seasons, that it does move and it is fluid. And I think letting that be okay has helped me a lot. That like this isn't linear. It doesn't go in a straight line. Um, there's not a right way to do it. And sometimes it is, you know, one step forward, three steps back, six steps forward, four back, you know, whatever. Yeah. Six back. You know, there's not a, there's not a right way to go about doing that. But I will say that doing it for me has 100%. Like I don't, I don't go in absolutes that much, but I would say 100% um the outcome has been that I like myself better. And I I spent one day, I don't know if I've told the story or not, but um this is a couple years ago, I said out loud somewhere to someone, I heard myself say, I really like myself. And I was sort of like, what? Because I've never said anything like that before and I realized that I meant it. And so I went home and because I'm analytical as fuck, I made a list of like what is it that I like or what's different that used to not be before that is now. And I went through like, this is my job, this is my hair, this is my body, this is my money, this is my car. Like, what's different? But are these things better now? Is that what it was? And I went through the whole list and none of it was better except for one thing. It was at the very bottom, it was one of the last things that I wrote. Um, but I was like, I don't like my hair better. Uh my it used to be skinnier. You know, all those things that like aren't that wasn't it. It wasn't some external thing. There was only one thing, and that was that I like the choices that I make. That's it. And I I have respect for the person that makes those choices. They are not the easy choice. They are not comfortable, but they are growth-oriented, they are there's um healing rooted in them in the willingness to sit in things and walk through things and be accountable and like call yourself out, which is hard. Like I can get away without that. I live alone. Who's gonna call me out anything? Right. But to stand there and look at myself in the mirror and to say, like, you know better. And now I'm gonna go do better because I know better. And I'm gonna go out myself over here. I'm gonna pick up the phone, I'm gonna own up to that thing that nobody would ever know that I said or thought or whatever, because I feel like I'm out of integrity with myself, with who I want to be, and that incongruence is not okay for me anymore. But that being in a space of choosing to be in integrity with myself and the kind of person I want to be, and that's not some shiny standard of perfection. It's just, I want to be a good human. I want to do the right thing, I want to care about people, the core values of my own life. If you're writing a mission statement for a business, what you write for your own mission, vision, and values for yourself. Like I'm the CEO of Nitania Incorporated. Right. I live by those things. And so when I'm out of integrity, I feel it. Yeah. And so to be able to keep making choices for me. And, you know, I don't have children, I don't have a husband anymore. I I have a little bit different scope than you have because it is just me. But even within your scope, if you don't make those choices for you, that's gonna bleed out to them as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

Yeah. And see, I think that's I've kind of had to figure out some of that stuff myself and and finding out like what I like about myself and what I don't has been still like an ongoing thing because I've you know, there's still not a whole lot that I like about myself. But like one of the things is that I am willing to go out of my way to help others now, as whereas before, like that was out of the question. If it didn't affect me and mine, I didn't fucking care about you. Like you could be standing next to me on fire and I wouldn't piss on you. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Netanya 1:02:20

I just it's so different than the version of you that I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

So I feel like and you know, now I'd give somebody the shit off my back, quite literally, like I'd I would in an instant. I will go drive however far to get to somebody that needs help, but I will go out of my way to help other human beings, and I think a lot of that just stems from like until recovery, I never really had anybody go out of their way for me. Not even my parents. Like that was a big thing for me. The very first time that I relapsed, I came home one day and one of my buddies that I had made friends with in rehab was at my house. I didn't call him, I didn't ask him to be there. His wife and my wife had kind of become friends. They were talking about what had been going on. She didn't expressly ask him to come over and talk to me. He just took it upon himself to get in the car, drive an hour to my house, and be there for me because he knew like I was I wouldn't say too proud, but I would say too afraid to ask somebody for help. Um, so being there for others now is a big thing for me and kind of how I fill my cup. And it's not because I'd expect anything in return from anybody, or that has nothing to do with it. It's just knowing that I'm like the literature says, you know, giving to others what was so freely given to me. If I can offer any kind of support or help in any way, shape, or form, like I I take advantage of the opportunity when it presents itself. The other thing that you had mentioned was making decisions for me, like that is hard for me because I am a father of three and I I I do have a wife. So ultimately, the decisions that I make.

Netanya 1:04:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:08

It's a it's a you know, shit rolls downhill, so to speak. Um and I have to take that into account, which makes it which adds a little bit of level of difficulty for me, like when making decisions, is because like I don't I have to do my recovery for me, right? But every decision that I make directly affects my family, my wife, my kids. And that makes some decisions much more difficult than if I was just on my own.

Netanya 1:04:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:41

And there's been days where like I'm kind of resentful, and that sounds so shitty, but of some of the people that don't have that. Like there's been days where I'm like, man, if I didn't have this, like I could be so much further in life. But then at the same time, it's such a huge blessing having what I have and like recognizing that and like I have to snap myself out of that headspace real quick because it'll go south real fast. Um But you know, it does add a level of difficulty making those decisions because it does like what I do day in and day out affects more than just me. And I think that's probably been the the hardest part in my recovery is like I need to be selfish about it and like I need to make sure I'm going to meetings and so on and so forth. But like also repairing the damage that I've done within my family requires me to be present. I can't do it from a meeting room.

unknown 1:05:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:39

You know, I can talk about all those things in the meeting rooms, but I can't I can't do anything to repair the damage that I've caused if I'm not home. And unfortunately, right now, because of all the decisions that I have made that directly affect my family, it causes me to not be home very often. I have to go To recovery court once a month. It used to be twice a month, but I've gotten to a phase now where it's once a month. I'm required to go to minimum three meetings a week. I have to go to this class every Thursday for 13 weeks. I spend a lot of time away from home. And the decisions that I made are directly responsible for that. I've robbed my family of time with me right now because of decisions that I made. And now I have to make sure that the decisions that I make don't continue taking away from my family. They add to it. And trying to find that balance between work, recovery, home life. It's a full-time job in another shelf.

Netanya 1:06:42

Yeah. How would you say overall the process of rediscovery has been through a lens of hope? Because we talked about hard stuff. It's hard. It's a road to walk. What are you most optimistic about?

Hope and Optimism: The Path Forward 

SPEAKER_01 1:07:03

I think what I'm most optimistic about is that like it can be done. Coming back from all the things that I've done to my family, like it's possible for me to come back from it. It's going to get worse before it gets better. And I I don't mean that in like a sense of like the addiction side of things, right? But like it's going to take me being away from home a little while longer, more than I'd care to be before I'm able to come back home and be home more often. Um to where I can be home more freely with my family. But, you know, just seeing all the people in the rooms that I've met over the course of the last going on two years, they've done it. Right. Like you hear all these stories of people that have turned their lives around and have these beautiful families and work lives and so on and so forth, it can be done. And I think that's probably what brings me the most hope is like knowing that I am doing the right things to get myself there. It's short-term sacrifice for long-term gain. Like this isn't gonna last forever. It's a means to an end.

Netanya 1:08:24

Well, and that that like grace within the process. But it does take time.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:29

Yeah. Give myself a lot of grace. I've like I'm my own worst critic. And like there's nothing that you could say to me that I haven't said ten times worse to myself.

Netanya 1:08:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:41

I'm a perfectionist, I'm very hard on myself, and I think a lot of that is because I was held to such a high standard as a kid that nowadays as a grown man, like I I really hold myself to the fire and expect great things from me. And like being in this season of life is extremely difficult for me because I'm not used to failing. I I don't like that feeling. Um and I feel exactly like I feel like a failure as a husband and as a father right now. Like I have not been fulfilling my responsibilities. But again, the hope is that through this program, like I start making the right decisions that quit taking from my family and start adding value.

Netanya 1:09:31

What do you think, as you just talked about failure, to look at the other end of that? What do you think, what do you think is going well? What do you think I don't I hesitate to use the word proud because it comes with a lot of connotations, but like what are you the most proud of that you're like, you know what, I am doing this or I did do that, and this is working and I am changing.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:50

Um I think the fact that one other people have noticed a difference in me more so than I have in myself. Like I've I've noticed a few things about myself that have changed for the better that that I appreciate and grateful for. And that's typically how it works, right? Is like people around you start noticing things about you before you do. And seeing that kind of come to fruition has been a great motivator for me. Like, okay, you are on the right track. Like if other people are seeing it, that you've got to be doing something right. I don't specifically know what that is, but if other people are seeing it, it can't not be true. Like I have to take people at their word and believe, like, hey, I am doing what I need to be doing. Um, but then also like knowing that when I go home, like my boys are excited to see me. Whereas before they didn't know who was going to walk through the door. And so they were kind of hesitant to like come play with dad or come do this, come do that. Like now, when I walk through the door, my four-year-old runs to me and jumps on me, like about tackles me. And he, if I leave, he's terrified. He does not want me to leave ever. If I leave, he's like, why? Where are you going? You know, and that breaks my heart a lot of times, but that's what I've caused, you know. But seeing that the response is slowly turning around and that like even with my wife, things aren't great right now, but we're trying to do things to get that back on track. Like, that's been neglected for a long time because, you know, at first it was the kids were the priority, then it was like, okay, you're an addict, you need help get yourself together so we can then work on this, and then getting into recovery and going through all that, and her trying to be gracious enough to give me the space that I need to work on my recovery, but then expecting things to change in our marriage, too, it yeah, it's it's been a lot, but the the fact that um you know we're trying to do something gives me gives me some hope.

unknown 1:12:11

Yeah.

Netanya 1:12:13

Thank you for taking the time to be here with me. Yeah. And I have one last question.

unknown 1:12:17

Yeah.

Netanya 1:12:18

Um if someone listening, if you were to give them permission to do anything after listening to this episode, what would you what would you give them permission to do? That's a tough one because there's a lot. Um I think it would be give yourself the opportunity to get it wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:44

You know, like as a as a father, like I'm so afraid of screwing up my kids. But at the same time, like I have to remember we're just humans. We're gonna get things wrong. But being able to acknowledge where you were wrong and pivot and grow from that and use it as a learning opportunity and implement a change that's going to produce a a diff a better outcome can be difficult sometimes if we don't it instead of just beating ourselves up, like, oh, I failed again, I got it wrong again, because that's what I struggle with the most. Like when I fail, I beat myself up versus looking at it as a learning opportunity. And that's been a big part of like my development over the last years, like taking failure as a learning opportunity. Like Ben Franklin didn't give up after getting the light bulb wrong however many hundreds of times, but then he finally got it right.

Netanya 1:13:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:43

You know, so like you're going to fail. It's it's all a part of it. But can't never could and won't never will. So you just gotta get back up and keep trying until you get it right.

Netanya 1:13:55

Yeah. I love that. And there's uh it made me think of a quote that's like, if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten, right? But that's if you don't change something, it's not nothing's gonna change. Right. And throughout that process it changed that it is messy. And that's okay. Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to NataniAlison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.