EP40: Rebuilding from Scratch | Felonies, Judgment, and the Boxes That Define Us — with Megan Haushulz

How do you rewrite your future when the world keeps dragging you back to a single page of your past?

In this candid conversation, Megan Hauschulz joins me to pull back the curtain on rebuilding a life from scratch—from navigating the correctional system to starting over on the outside. But this episode goes far deeper than a broken system. Together, we unpack the heavy things we usually hide: navigating grief in sobriety, the trap of social media perfectionism, and the childhood roots of adult anxiety.

From my own story of chasing approval to Megan’s insights on generational patterns, this episode is a masterclass in dropping self-judgment, shifting your internal dialogue, and finding grace in the messy middle.

Together, we explore:

• Navigating Re-Entry & Reclaiming Your Story: A look at the real hurdles of life after prison—from housing to employment—and the powerful roadmap to rewriting your future.
• The Social Media Trap & Anchoring Joy: A vulnerable look at perception management, and a mindfulness practice to imprint magical moments in your mind before the chaos takes over.
• The Root of the "Shoulds": Tracing the need to be right back to childhood wounds, and learning how to stop the cycle of self-criticism when we mess up.

Megan leaves us with a beautiful final permission slip: stop waiting for a system to change for you, look for the community that will walk with you, and write down your goals—because no dream is ever too big.

Full episode and show notes: netanyaallyson.com/episodes/40

Transcript

Navigating Life with Felonies

Netanya 0:00

There are moments of life that's put us open. By unraveling that right or truth, we just don't get until we have this podcast is about those moments. It's about the starting points that change up. The things I wish someone had told me that I only understand and look at. Come on in, you belong here, and we're gonna talk about all of it. I'm your host, Natanya, and this is what I didn't know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Megan Hauschultz. In this episode, we dive into how changing our lens of judgment towards ourselves and others is a vital step in our own healing and freedom, the reality of navigating life during and after a felony conviction, and how to stop letting systemic labels, past mistakes, or societal expectations define your true narrative. Here we go. And I would just love to know more than like how you got them, more so the experience of walking through that, like coming to terms with that and overcoming and moving past it.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Yes. Gosh, there is so much to do with felonies, unfortunately, in the United States of America. There's so much there. Well, first of all, I just want to say that on Monday, I had jury duty. And I swear to you, I've been walking around for years. Like, the only good thing about being a convicted felon is that you don't get jury duty. And I don't know where I got that. I think I just made it up in my head because I had never gotten it before. But then like they sent it to me. I'm like, no. So I'm Googling and I'm like, yep, sure enough. Look at this. I'm allowed to go to jury duty. And I'm like, well, I guess there's no silver linings anymore.

Netanya 2:14

That was like your only hope. That was it.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

I was like, come on, man. If they pull me up on that stand, I'm gonna tell them I'm a felon. You don't want me to like proud. I should be proud about that, right? No, so yeah, getting felonies. That uh 2009 is when I got three drug-related felonies. I was convicted. I went to Denver Women's Correctional Facility. From Denver Women's Correctional Facility, I put myself in a boot camp program, which is no longer. They shut it down, but it's the only time you're like co-ed in prison. 36 of us, only like 14 of us, I think, made it through. It was hell, honestly. I'm pretty sure my neck and my back issues are from that. Um, and then I got reconsideration hearings, longest story short. I could write a trilogy on my eight months in prison, honestly. Eight months is it on eight years. There's so much there. But living with felonies from there, I moved into community corrections and I lived there for almost a year in Fort Collins. And I tell this story a lot because I do speaking stuff, right? I do speaking engagements and everything. And so I have this memorized 134 applications I filled out because they made you keep track of it when you're in community corrections, right? I had to write down the date, the name of the place, all of the things. 134, oh God, it was 132 or 134. Anyway, somewhere around there, 130 something applications. And I got two calls, right? And so one was for a department store. And basically, as soon as they found out that I was gonna check that box, they they canceled the interview. So um, we don't have to check the box anymore, I found out. Um, but the second one was for, and I and I do want to shout out to the Egan Eye. They are no longer either, unfortunately. The Egan Eye is now first watch. But I did get a call, I got an interview, and I had to let them know at the very end of the interview, like, hey, listen, I live in community corrections. They're gonna call you every day that I work and make sure that I'm here. And it's mortifying and awful, and that's what's happening. And he goes, That's okay. And he goes, wait, what for? And I was like, drug stuff. And he goes, so not like robbing your past employer. And I was like, no. And he goes, We all have a past. And he, and I worked there for almost seven years, you know? Oh, um, so that was amazing. Yes. And then I did end up getting another job too at Perkins at a restaurant. So that was good. But you had to check the box for being a felon. And um, that was really hard. I was on parole or paper, as they like to say, for seven and a half years, maybe. And so during that time I couldn't vote. And there is like this misconception and like I think just perception about people who are convicted felons that they can just never vote. And that's actually not the case. We can vote as long as we're off paper, as long as we have served our time, we can vote. So, you know, being on parole for a very long time, they gave me five years, which I have also recently found out they're not allowed to give you that long end parole anymore. So that's good. We're moving, I think, forward. Um, a little bit, tiny, tiny baby steps. I think the most you can cap is like two and a half or something years, is what I was told. So yeah. Um, I have not looked this up, but this is what I've been told. So it's okay. It's not, it's not totally verified information. This podcast is not always factual information. So I do not promise that. I'm not a therapist. So I'm pretty sure they're correct. I'm pretty sure there's nothing in there. No, but you know, it's it's been it's been crazy. And so when I finally got off paper, I think the hardest part too, right? Like, yes, of course, a finding a job, because you have to check that box. But I mean, like 130 some odd applications. And I got two people to call me back because, and you know, they didn't, they didn't have the box for me to check that as a felon. Right. And that was it. And so those are the only reasons why I think I got those calls. And then the one was like, no, you know, when they found out.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

And um, but just trying to plead my case, like, can I please talk to you about like what happened, why I'm here, what's been going on, what I, what I, you know, want to do with my life, my goals. Nobody wants to hear that. Finding an apartment, you cannot do. So finding an apartment is almost impossible. Um, if it's property management, you're done. You're not getting it. Right. And so everything's property management, though, right? Or at least it was when I was looking for property. Um, and so everywhere I went, I was like, listen, I don't want to spend $25, $30 on this application fee if you're just gonna deny me right now. And they're like, you're gonna check the box that you're a felon. Yes. Don't even apply. Every single one of them. And I would call. I sat down and I would call and call and call. I would show up to places, I would be dressed nice, right? I'd be like, hi, can I please talk to you? Nothing we can do. Don't even apply. So that was just, God, that was so hard, you know. And um, my first apartment that I did find out of the halfway house, I did end up telling the man, I said, Look, I went to Harmony um for treatment and I got into a bunch of trouble. I'm a recovering addict, I've been sober for X amount of years. And he said, Harmony saved my daughter's life. I'll give you the apartment, you know? And so, like, that was my foot in the door first. Second apartment I found was also, it was privately owned by somebody, and it was a traveling reverend. And he's like, God is telling me to give you. I'm like, thank you, God, thank you. So got that apartment and he said, You guys actually paid your rent on time for a very long time. I'm never gonna raise your rent because you guys were actually the best tenants I've ever had, right? Me and my now spouse. So yeah, it's been it's been something I've had to dig up my past and talk about it more times than I have wanted

The Weight of Shame and Recovery

SPEAKER_01 8:11

to, really. You know, like I don't mind talking about it here and there. But when I'm trying to volunteer somewhere and I have to tell everybody about my past or rent an apartment um or find a place to live, like it is really infuriating. Even going to college, even getting um into CSU took me over six months to get um approved because of my felonies.

Netanya 8:34

What has your relationship to shame been like throughout this process?

SPEAKER_01 8:39

It's been like the worst abusive relationship I've ever had. It literally has. Like shame just from being, you know, an addict, shame from being in trouble with the law, shame from trying to live like this, you know, quote unquote normal, productive life. And um, you know, talking about where I've been and what I've done with people I don't know who I'm hoping are going to help to get me to the next phase and stage in my life is absolutely it was shameful. It was exhausting. Um and it's, you know, people look at you differently when you tell them things, and I really didn't have a choice. You know, it's like forget, you know, alcoholics anonymous or narcotics, like I was not anonymous. I've never been anonymous, right? And like I broke the law, and that's that, you know? And so I've come to I've come to peace with it, I've come to terms with it. But I think that when people, you know, when you start telling them more about your goals and what you want to do and what you've overcome instead of what you did, that's where they'll listen.

Netanya 9:49

I like that. That was a really beautiful way to say that. Because I think the tendency is to wanna and I have this in other stuff, that's not even that, but just to justify like why you did what you did, or like I'm not that bad of a person, right? The backwards space of it, but in order to earn trust back, because it's in a sense you broke trust, whether it's you know, with the people in your life, right, and also but community-wise, culturally wise, in you know, being citizens, like those things, the people of like the housing not wanting to trust you because you broke a a law, right? Or laws to be able to talk about how you are changing what you're doing to improve that and what you've already done. Like these are the I have evidence that I have worked on this and I'm still doing it, and these are my goals towards it is a really beautiful way to put that.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Yes. Yeah. I mean, I've I've worked, I've worked my ass off. I'm not gonna lie. Like, I mean, it's been like literal blood, sweat, and tears at times trying to get into school, trying to get my degrees, right? I have a bachelor's in social work, a master's in social work now. And getting those, or like even just getting approved to learn was awful. Dora, right, the Department of Regulatory Agency, I ended up getting a, you know, certified addiction counseling one. And that took over a year to get approved, where others were getting it approved in like a month and a half.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

But it was like I had to go through boards and this, that, and they had to, you know, and they wouldn't talk to me. And that's the problem is I wanted people to look at me and talk to me and and instead of just look at what I look like on paper because it doesn't look good. You know? And it's like, can you please just talk to me, have a conversation with me? Even CSU was like, no, that's drastic. We don't need to do that. And then I just kept on about it, like, are you gonna approve me? I want to get my bachelor's. And finally they're like, we need you to come in. And I'm like, that's what I've been saying. And then they have the dean of students there, the campus police there, like all of these people there. It was absolutely ridiculous. I went in pregnant with my first daughter, and I had no teardrop tattoos, right? Or throat tattoos. And I think that's what they were expecting. But it was interesting what they said to me before all that process, too, was there's just been so many school shootings. And I'm like, where in God's name does it say anywhere about a gun, even on my record? There's nothing there. Nonviolent, just drugs. Yeah.

Netanya 12:09

What has your experience been like with we talked about shame a little bit, like the forgiveness process for yourself to be able to release some of that?

SPEAKER_01 12:18

I mean, that's just been working a recovery program. Like it it has been. And it's either just lay down and die and let

Forgiveness and Moving Forward

SPEAKER_01 12:25

these people, you know, keep their their foots on my throat or get up and do something. And I just I think it motivated me even more. Like, yeah, I cried and I felt defeated so many times, but I uh it motivated me to just I'm gonna, I'm not gonna be that statistic, right? Like I'm gonna be a different statistic. I'm gonna be the one that that actually makes something out of this and and does something good with it. Yeah. So it's taken a lot of uh just a lot of self-reflection for sure and recovery work.

Netanya 12:52

Well, and I want to say too, because there are people listening that may have face tattoos, right? Or teardrops or have those things, and it's like I would still encourage them to keep walking forward. God please do, yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

I mean, I'm covered in tattoos, I'm not gonna lie, but but I think that that's the stigma though. That's what they're looking for, is like they were trying to stigmatize me. And they they see this person, this like, you know, whatever, drug addict, and that is what they're expecting. And honestly, like it's really kind of sad too, because I am a white woman and I have a lot, you know, um, ahead of a lot of people. Like I'm ahead of the gang just being white. And just, I mean, the women that I have met in prison are amazing, the most phenomenal women. And some of them may have been affiliated with gangs, some of them were just affiliated with the wrong life, like I feel like I was, you know, and just hooked on drugs or hooked on a relationship that turned gross. But yeah, there's a stigma. And these women, like I think you would never know. Right. But God, if I was a woman of color, it would have been even harder. And I think about that.

Netanya 13:55

Do you still keep in contact with them?

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Like just generally, you don't have to, you know. Yeah, a couple of them I do when they're out and doing wonderful. And you know, like everybody has has something, but just some of the stuff that women were in prison for was just ridiculous. And like my roommate, um, she she was black. Well, she's still black, but you know, she's she's amazing, she's a phenomenal human, and she was hooked on drugs. And you know, after she lost her baby, like, do we help people like that? No, we imprison them. Like it and she was, gosh, she's just the sweetest thing ever. Like, she really is. Like, I will never forget her as long as I live. I was so lucky.

Netanya 14:33

Has it changed your perspective at all? Like, how has it changed your perspective of how we treat people, how we make assumptions and judgments? Like, I talk about that a lot just in general, how much as a society, instantly you do it hundreds of times a day. You're out at the store and you make assumptions based on what you see visually or what you hear or someone's interaction that's a momentary thing without having any context.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Yeah.

Netanya 14:57

And then from those assumptions, we pass judgment and treat it like fact, and then function and make choices about how we treat people and navigate the world from the judgments that we've made from very little information.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Yes.

Netanya 15:09

We all do.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

And if you say you don't, you're lying. It's just like learning about like white supremacy. It yeah, we all got it. If you're white, you have it, right? Like uh we just do. It's been ingrained. Um, so I guess to answer your question is I became a social worker. And so uh I do understand just our systems and how they are set to fail, especially those people of color, um, non-English speaking, you know, neighbors in our society. All I learned about in my bachelor's and masters was oppression. And not just this is my opinion, but here are the facts. This is why Black Lives Matter is a thing. It's not just like, oh, we decided to just create this out of nothing. No, right? It was created out of, you know, young black men being disproportionately shot at a higher rate than anyone else by the police, you know. And so then it's like when you start reading these studies and you start really understanding instead of just a bias or what you read on Facebook, but you start reading the like these peer, you know, reviewed journal articles just about all of this stuff, and it is eye-opening. It's like you think you know a little bit, it's like, oh yeah, the system. But you don't know until you actually are forced to know it. And it's it's awful. And like I have felt so grateful to just my God, to just be in the position that I am and had the family that I did and you know, the support that I have. Because I mean, there was some women in prison too, like just they didn't even have shampoo. I mean, they would sit there at mail call. I never had received a letter in years, but they would sit there anyways in hopes that they would get a letter that day. It's frickin' devastating. It is. And I uh we forget people in prison all day, you know?

Social Work: A New Perspective

SPEAKER_01 16:59

It is and the Bible even says not to. I mean, I'm a very spiritual person. I feel like I've pulled a lot from the the Bible and other places, the Quran, everything. But God definitely has said we do not forget those in prison.

Netanya 17:14

Yet here we are. What has your experience been like with social work coming from that seat and moving into that space? It was very interesting going to school for social work.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Um, you know, I was considered a non-traditional student because I started at 30 or 31. I went back to school.

Netanya 17:31

Is that a title they give you?

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Non-traditional?

Netanya 17:34

Like is that a label?

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yes. Non-traditional student, right? And that's what too old. They're not non-traditional, yes. And I'm just like, so what is that? It's just like when I hut my daughter, it was a geriatric pregnancy at like 36. I was like, come on.

Netanya 17:48

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Can you change this term? Like, this is ridiculous, but anyways. But yeah, so you know, it's non-traditional. And so I was in school with a bunch of like 20, 21-year-olds, 22-year-olds, even I had a lot more life experience. I didn't just come out and talk about um where I'd been, um, but I did every once in a while, I brought it up. Like when a professor was asking for like, does anyone have an example, like a real example from their own life pertaining to this, this, or this, right? And nobody would raise their hand. And then I just, I'm like, I'm just doing it. I'm just gonna put myself out there and I'm just gonna do it. I mean, the more I talk about it, the less I, you know, I'm gonna be ashamed about it. The more I'm gonna like kick the shame in the face. And um, so many people came up to me afterward and were like, I had no idea this about you. Like, you don't look the type. And I remember a few people saying that, and I was like, what does the type look like? Yeah. And so like it does give us an opportunity to really converse and talk more about it. And I still go to CSU a lot, actually, every semester, and I talk about my experience. The professors have me come and talk to their classes, you know, about it because it's um like we're everywhere. Felons, people in recovery, we are everywhere. And so, yeah, we can't, we can't judge, you know. And I think the more people come out that that do just, you know, look like me, you know, and have like success now where it's like, oh, I'm I've I'm a licensed clinician, I'm this, this. Like the more people will actually put themselves out there and try because it is really, really a hard life trying to get to where you need to as a felon.

Netanya 19:23

When you were in college, what was the experience like being with a bunch of 21-year-olds?

SPEAKER_01 19:28

It was very interesting, and we had very different views. And sometimes I would um get asked if I was um, you know, uh affiliated with one re you know, party or the other. Um and you know, typically social work is affiliated with one specific party, but not always. Um, just because I did have my own viewpoints and opinions about things and prisons and jails and stuff and police, and not necessarily bad. So a lot of students wanted to abolish the police and prisons. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, there are some people in prison that you do not want out. You know what I mean? And like, we need the police, right? And so, like this convicted felon who's been to prison, I'm like, we need the police, like advocating for them, right? Sure, police brutality, sure, blah, blah, blah. And right, but like, let's reform, maybe, but we can't abolish the prison system and the police, right? And that's when they're like, oh, which side are you on? And I'm like, well, I'm not on a side, but I have I've met some people that should not be out of prison, and I hope they never are. I knew people before I went to prison that I hope are in prison long after I got out, just because there's some not good people in the world.

Netanya 20:46

You are not the first person that I have heard that from. Um but but the same stance of reform. There's ways that we can make this better and you know, absolutely. And there are some people that should 1,000% be there and are not good humans.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Right.

Netanya 21:05

Um and something you were saying about it was interesting to me because it remember it reminded me of when I was in college and studying something at the time of my second degree. I was in English education. So I'm studying to be a teacher. And like what you learned, or what I learned, I'll speak for myself, when I was in that space, I'm learning in classrooms and out of books, but I'm still young, right? I still haven't had life experience. And so I can remember when I went into a school for the first time and like you're actually practicing the things that you've been doing in sort of a fake closed vacuum classroom and you're out in the world. I was like, hold up. This is not the same. And there's so much that I don't know that they could have prepared me for. There's so much that they talked about that didn't happen. But that had to be a different experience, you having

Privilege and Systemic Issues

Netanya 21:57

this actual real life lived like, and that's Just what you know, wisdom is not just the knowledge that comes from the books, but the living of it. And you being in that space of being older, you do know stuff. You do have this life experience that some of these people at a younger age just haven't had yet. And it's not a good or bad, it's just not being in a different seat and having a different perspective.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Yes, very different. And it's, I mean, well and privilege, right? And like um social work school definitely has you check that at the door and in the classroom, like your privilege and understand it and what that looks like. And you know, it made for really good conversation, I think, right? And just talking about it in class of like, okay, so then let's bring all the prisoners out of prison and then also where are they gonna go? Are we really equipped with resources to take everybody out? No. And like I heard the statistic once that, you know, the United States of America holds like 1% of the world's population, yet the United States of America holds 50% of the prison population in the world. We are definitely winning when it comes to imprisoning people. We are. And so, you know, there is no reform. Even just in the short time I was there, I watched women leave and come back, you know, while I was there. And I'm like, what happened? It's because nobody's setting anyone up for success either. You know, it's like, well, now you're out, you're in the middle of Denver, you can't get an apartment, you're it's gonna really suck trying to get a job. And here's a bus ticket, you're also supposed to meet with your PO tomorrow, all the way across town. And if you don't show, you're calling back. Like, what are you supposed to do? Like, I mean, they make it almost impossible, you know, for for you to make it. But yeah, you know, like I I mean, I the world of social work, like it was very eye-opening, though. It

Finding Common Ground in Human Experience

SPEAKER_01 23:45

truly was, you know, even just outside of like my own personal scope. And other people had lived experiences too, right? Like there were so many people of color in my classes, and I just loved hearing from them and their experiences too, and and what's been happening with their lives with their brothers and sisters and their, you know, their family and things like that. And it's like there's so much more that we have in common, I think, as humans than not, you know? But we don't really.

Netanya 24:20

Yeah. I mean, I've done it. I can remember in the very, very beginning, I thought that I wasn't bad enough because I had people around me who had different stories of being homeless or being in prison or all of these other things, felonies, and I didn't have that. And so almost like the reverse shame shame of like I'm not bad enough. I should have done worse things. And I think the core desire to belong is a human nature thing anywhere in anything you're doing. And I wanted to belong. And I can remember thinking that like I'm I didn't do enough to belong in this space, so I don't fit.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

Which is dangerous too, right? Yes. It is compliance about this too. Like, do not compare yourselves to others in the rooms because you will either tell yourself that you're too bad or not bad enough. And if you're not bad enough, you're gonna go out and drink more or use more, right? Like that is just setting yourself up to fail. Everybody has their own path, their own story, but we all just need to get here, whichever way we get here, because the thing is, it's like it's death if we don't for all of us. That's the one thing, right? That we all have in common right now is that like we will all die from this or not, right? Yeah, that's a very dangerous spot to be. It is.

Netanya 25:28

I was talking to my mom earlier. Um, I have a date with her every Sunday because we don't live in the same state anymore.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

Lesson.

Netanya 25:35

Um, and but we were talking about I think the the same concept of perception and how we want to be understood as people.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Yeah.

Netanya 25:43

I want to understand other people. Why would someone do this thing? And we kind of make those connections in our brain and make up reasons why something might be why she is this way or isn't this way. And then again, judging that space, but it's like, how can we be better at sort of staying in our lane? What's mine? How do I get better and keep healing in my life? And then when I run into people left and right because I do that are different than me, um, that make different choices than I do, how do I not make them wrong or bad or make myself better or worse in the process?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Exactly.

Netanya 26:18

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

And how can I support the next person without judgment at all, right? Like no adjustment. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I've been in treatment, working in treatment now for over 13 years. And we get a lot of employees there, whether they be, you know, techs or whether they be um, you know, case management or even clinicians, and they feel like they don't have a spot there because they're not in recovery, because they don't have a drug addict or alcoholic story. And that is the only time or only place where I've ever been like, oh man, so this is an asset, huh? That I'm a drug addict and an alcoholic in recovery. Cool. You know, like people want to be me. Like, that's awesome. But you know, we have to talk to them too. Like, you don't, you know, like you don't don't go out and do some heroin just so you can understand what it's like. Like you don't need to.

unknown 27:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Like as long as you're educating yourself. And I tell that to the CSU students, I ask them, I'm like,

The Value of Life Experience

SPEAKER_01 27:11

raise your hand. Do you feel like you need to have substance use disorder to work in this field? And they do, all of them almost. And I'm like, you don't. You don't. Just have empathy. Like that's all you need is empathy, you know, read some books here, listen to your clients and what they have been through. And also just understand that nobody is hopeless ever. I don't care like how hard they are, they are not hopeless.

Netanya 27:32

Well, and I think too, the beautiful thing that everyone has that I think people undermine and doesn't give enough credit is your own life experience. Yeah. And you may not have addiction life experience or substance abuse life experience.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

You got something, I'm sure it's not a lot of life experience. Nobody just sits there, you know what I mean? And just unscathed. No.

Netanya 27:52

And whether it's even just the feeling of like um not fitting in or not belonging or being shunned or having someone, you know, a parent choose something over you and feeling like you're not good enough, like that's at the core of all of us. We're all in the same wounds. And the same, you know, when I talk about addiction a lot, people sometimes get, you know, AA versus NA versus recovery dharma versus whatever, all the things. And I get really cranky about all that. I do because of I just think we're all the, you know, again, finding separation and segregation versus supporting that we're all this. And it's like you're all, we all have the same problem, and the problem is pain that you didn't know what to do with. Yes.

unknown 28:34

Yeah.

Netanya 28:35

And whichever form that took, you you didn't know what to do with it or how to handle it. Likely you were not surrounded by people that could teach you that because they didn't know. They didn't have context for that. And then you lean in this way or that way to self-soothe, whatever that was. And there are many other ways that people do that besides substance abuse. And that was one of the reasons that, you know, when we talk about everyone is in recovery from something, that like, yes, my lens of the world happens to be through substance abuse, because that's the way that I, that's the way I found it. But there are many versions of the spectrum of a lens of how you walk a road and find healing.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Right.

Netanya 29:14

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

You know, and I, you know, my message to my clients too is whatever it is you have going on, whatever ails you, like it's isolating. And it's God, that's gonna kill us. The isolation. We are born to be around other people, period. We have to be like in order to function and thrive, we have to be around other people. And I'm like, I'm not gonna save you from this. Treatment won't save you from this. Okay, like this and this won't save you from this. You're a therapist, but your recovery community will. Like, that's the number one thing you have to find right now. It's recovery community. Not just community, people in recovery, because it normalizes all of this, you know? And it doesn't matter where we came from. All we know is that we want better lives and we wanna we wanna die sober. And that's that's all we need to do. I hate putting everybody in labeled boxes, though I can't stand it either. It's one disease, one program. Either you're in recovery or not. Right? Who cares? Who cares if you say you're clean or you're sober? I really don't. Like it irritates me. Who cares? Okay, like it doesn't matter, you know? We just get so nitpicky. Yeah.

Netanya 30:18

And whether, you know, whatever recovery is, most people on that journey are looking to grow, learn, change through their choices, make different decisions than they've made in the past, and find different scopes of healing.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Yeah.

Netanya 30:33

Yeah, which is exactly incredibly beautiful. And there are there are many, many takes on what that looks like and feels like and how that functions in your life. And I'm a yes for all of them, you know, and it's like there's not a right way to do this. No. And I will if I don't soapbox a lot, I soapbox on that. There is not one right way to heal.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Nope, there is not. There really isn't. And like it has to be your way, right? And like there is some rigid thinking in the recovery communities. I won't mention which one, but if just like you have to do exactly what I say when I say it, how I do it, what's worked for me is absolutely gonna work for you. If you do anything differently, you're not gonna make it. It's like, come on. We're we don't fit into a box like that. Nobody does. Sure, I might be an alcoholic just like you, but it doesn't mean that what you're doing is gonna work for me because remember, we have mental health and trauma also. We also have like different backgrounds and families and support. Like there are so many different systems and factors in place that it's not even funny. So no, it's not a one-size-fits-all, you know? And when I do my intensive outpatient groups with my clients, I mean, I talk about all avenues. We talk about smart recovery, we talk about the 12-step recovery, we talk about um dharma recovery. We have speakers that come in from all of it and just go test them out, see which one you like.

Netanya 31:48

Yeah. Well, and I I try to do that just in life in general, but I talk about it a lot because I'm so passionate about, which is like picking and choosing what which parts of things work for you and what do you want to keep? It's like keeping your own box under your bed of like, these are the things that work for me. I'm gonna collect them and use them and keep, you know, keeping building your own toolbox and that that works for you and that what works for the person next to you, like you said, just because I have an alcohol problem and you have an alcohol problem, the way that functioned, how even if it's even if we have the same living set, like just there's so many variants on how and I think someone was talking about, I think it was my episode um with Angela Melzer, who's a a therapist in Steamboat. I did an episode with her, and

The Complexity of Trauma and Grief

Netanya 32:30

one of the things we talked about was she brought up that the definition of trauma has changed in the past several years, and that one of the things they use for it now that they didn't used to use is like instead of just being the thing that happened to you, it's about how you respond to the thing that happened to you. Meaning like two people can have the same divorced parents and respond very differently. Yes. Right. And so all even that, like your internal systems, you might have the same functional, external house and experience, and they might be your twin sister, right? And your experience and how you process that, how you felt that in your body, um, genetics, all of that, that that impacts what your experience is like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

There will never be two people on this planet experiencing the same exact thing. Yeah. There won't, period, because of that. And it is, I think it is our response. And also like what we choose to do or or not do with it. Grief, same thing. It's just like some people are like, man, it's been six months since your dad died, Megan. I was over it by now. And my dad, it's like, what? Like, I feel like my life is falling apart still, you know? Um, yeah, it's it's really, really kind of I don't know. And and I think that's where this discussion even comes from kind of sucks, right? Where it's like people believe a certain way about other people and how they should be doing something, or you know, the shoulds. I hate the shoulds, but and it's no, there's no right way. There really isn't.

Netanya 33:56

How has your experience of grief been?

SPEAKER_01 33:59

Oh God, I hate grief. I'm not gonna lie. I don't know anyone who likes grief, but I it's probably like it's the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with. You know, I died, I died, my dad died uh when I was sober. And um, you know, I I remember telling him, like, I'm like, I started therapy again because I knew, you know, we knew he was gonna die of cancer. And he's like, he felt so bad that I had to go to therapy. And I was like, why do you feel bad? Like, it's not a bad thing, Dad. It's a good thing. Like, I need to process this and talk about it, you know, with somebody more objective. And he was like, I'm so sorry that I'm doing this to you. And it was awful. I'm like, and he goes, You've been through worse than this. Like, you've been through so much worse than this. And I'm like, No, I haven't. No, I haven't. Never have I been through worse than this. All of that was temporary. Like, you're my dad.

Netanya 34:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

And you're gonna be gone. I can't handle that. You know, and so oh, grief. Like it's been since 2018, right? It's been eight years, and sometimes it hits me like it was two days ago. And I just get so overwhelmed with emotion and sadness and grief and anger. And yeah, where some people with grief, they're just like, Yeah, that really sucked for a couple of years, but I'm so good now. And I'm like, that's awesome, you know, good for you. And, you know, like those little slogans we say about God needed another angel. And I mean, we need to stop saying those, first of all. Like those need to stop. You know, God doesn't pick the one, yeah. Okay, settle down. Right? Like, let's stop. Um, but yeah, no, grief has been probably one of the hardest ones for me over over trauma. Honestly.

Netanya 35:36

And well, and it's there's so many different types of grief. Okay. And I don't I'm I don't know what they are. Like I couldn't name them, but just whether it's grieving a person, grieving, you know, loss of a life experience or a job, uh-huh, or a home, or uh, you know, any sort of large life change or catalytic situation like that. Yes. And then there's I was talking about this recently. The amount of times I've had to grieve someone still living.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Oh, I have to.

unknown 36:02

It's possible.

Netanya 36:03

You know, and that all of those things, you you as the holder of the grief, might experience each of those differently.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Yeah.

Netanya 36:12

But it's just it's always something that I find fascinating to talk about and get into because it doesn't, it's one of those things that like that is going to be with us the rest of our lives, the experience and the process of grief. And it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Yes. Right? Like it's our God-given right to experience it. And like we don't have to shove it away or shut it down or drink about it. It's just, it's it it's okay too, you know. I'm probably gonna, you know, if I died at 80, still sad that my dad then it is what it is, right? And that probably will be the case, and that's okay. Right. It's okay. It's okay to be sad. We have all these core emotions, and only one of them is perceived positive. Like we're not gonna just be happy all the time, right? I wish we could live in happiness, but we're just not going to.

Netanya 36:54

So Well, and there's there's something to be said for the juxtaposition of things, and that like the night and the day and the the light and dark of things that like I do think they push off each other and they enhance and and create space for the growth of the other because they because they exist.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like as humans, you know, myself very much. Um, I'll say I statements. I am I'm really good at hanging on to negative emotions, anger especially. That's a hard one for me. Anger and resentment. But then when there's joy, like it's fleeting. I just let it go so quickly. And it's like, why do I do that? Why do I wallow in in, you know, all of these shame and, you know, guilt and hard emotions? But then when something good happens, I just let it go immediately. Right. And really, like I I want to practice doing the opposite, you know, like of okay, how do I process

Intentionality in Emotional Processing

SPEAKER_01 37:48

my anger, process my sadness, right? And not let it go, but just so it's not suffocating me, maybe. And how do I learn how to just hang on to that joy just a little bit longer?

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Yeah. I don't know anyone who's done that, but if you have, please find me and let me know how.

Netanya 38:05

Well, I don't I think I think you're talking about too the process of being intentional about both of those things. Yes. Whereas if you're not intentional, you're essentially reacting. It's a reactive state. And we we react based off our wounds. Like most of us, that old programming is still playing a tape. I'm still doing the thing for approval or for self-flagellation or for whatever, you know, that I learned from decades ago. But to be just first of all, just the awareness of what you just said is its own step, which is awareness that you do this or that's the thing you do, and then finding spaces on purpose to understand, acknowledge, I'm angry, and how do I want to work through that, whether it's therapy or a step program or just writing it out and voicing it or beating the shit out of a pillow. I've done that before. Right. Um, but to intentionally process it. And then also when you're having a moment and you're standing on the beach with your daughter in a sunrise and it's just like this magical thing, and you're holding her hand. Someone taught me once, um, I I have no idea if this is true or not, but they said it was called anchoring. And it's like almost like taking a snapshot with your mind of like, I'm on purpose, but just saying the word anchoring, I'm gonna anchor into this. Yeah. Just the intention of I want to hold this moment sort of imprints it longer than it would have been if you're if you if you don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Yeah, because it is just so mindful, right? It really is. Yeah. And I'm all about mindfulness. Um, teaching it anyways. I'm still practicing like a lot. Yeah. But you know, teaching it, I'm fine with. Teaching self-care, I'm fine with. Practicing, it's another story. But, you know, but yeah, no, I love that anchoring, because then you are being intentional, right? Like your brain is like, oh, we're anchoring right now, which means that we are gonna hold this, right? Like we're gonna hold this in our memory. We're gonna remember this, we're gonna think about this. This is gonna bring a smile to my face when I think about it tomorrow or next year. I love that a lot, actually.

Netanya 39:58

Well, and I think too, like the can you can you hold on to it for five seconds longer?

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Yeah.

Netanya 40:03

You know, like like I said, if you're on the beach and you're holding your hand and you someone's calling you and you gotta go to dinner, can you just be like, hang on, we'll be there. Yep. To to hold it, to let it reverberate essentially.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Yeah, and that's a hard one for me too. Just like ADHD and just always feeling like I have to do 500 things at once, too. You know, and people please are also like, oh, somebody's calling my name. I need to go. Or no, my daughter's here. I need to be with her. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Such a practice, all of it. It really is. It's such a process and such a practice. It's not one of those things that I think we just do or have. It is a practice. And we could be intentional with those practices, what we need, what we don't need.

Netanya 40:44

Well,

Embracing the Messiness of Life

Netanya 40:45

and I think even what you just said, like that it's a practice and letting that be okay, that I think so many of us, and I again, I will use I statements also, I have been guilty of trying to get it right, trying to get it done, trying to arrive, trying to get to the next thing. And, you know, it used to be from running from something, and now it's not running from something. It's just like the are we there yet little kid thing of like I'm excited about this thing, or or just having it, you know, earmarked in my brain that I need to do it. Do we get to it yet? Like on a calendar.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Right.

Netanya 41:18

Um, and being in that space of can I can I stop doing that and stop making it wrong of myself that I have to be or do or get somewhere ever. And it's the this is the most cliche thing that I'm gonna say. But but that like whole it's not, it's the journey, it's not the destination. Yeah. When I do look back and I have experienced like with awe, the beauty of all these different things, the way things have unfolded, the choices that I made, relationships, connections, decisions, um, loss, letting go, like that, those have all been processes and practices. There's not a I don't know if there's a destination in there. And even if there is, the second you get to one, right, you get the ring on your finger, you have the wedding, you buy the house, there's something else. Because then you got to move into the house, right? And it's like there's always another thing. And like instead of being coming from a place of lack or scarcity about that and always having a thing you have to climb for, can I just be in part of the process and enjoy? You know what, today's not a there's a thing I wrote, God, I forgot about this. Uh, I used to have a blog like a decade ago. And my favorite blog post that I ever wrote was called Um The Day Before. And it was about the fact that, like, you're doing good exactly where you are. It just might be the day before. It might be the day before you meet the guy. It might still be the day before the person quits their job that makes the opening occur that they'll then be online that you can apply for in three weeks. Like it's just, it might be the day before.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

I love that. I kind of want to journal around that a little bit. I do. Yeah. I I that kind of reminds me of like gratitude, even. You know what I mean? Like I'm grateful for this today and this today and this today. But when I woke up this morning, I didn't know those things were gonna happen. Yes. And so then tomorrow I can reflect on, I love that so much. I'm writing that down. Go for it. I'm writing that down, just so you know, because I can't remember anything. But I love that so much. I really, really do. And I I mean, I God, it just connects people, I think, right? Just like having these thoughts and like talking about it, you know, like social media is killing us. It's just like, you know, I see that April or whomever, you know, like June. I don't know why everyone's all of a sudden like has um month names, but April and June, my friends, ha ha, you know, but they're on Facebook with like their families and nobody's crying and everybody's great and they have money and everybody's just this. And it's like, why is my life like not like that right now? Why are my kids screaming and mean to me? Why, why is my house filthy? Why don't I have money to go to Hawaii right now? And it's like, but just these types of conversations and getting, I think, just the thought produces flowing in each other. This is what it's about. Literally life, I think. It's how we connect.

Netanya 44:11

Yeah. I love that. I agree. Um it made me think of because that used to irritate me also, the highlight reel on social media drives me insane. I don't have any of those things too, and my life doesn't look like that. And even when it does, it doesn't, you know. God seriously. Um and there's an episode of Modern Family, and they're all taking there's like, I don't know, 15 of them, and they're all taking this large family photo, and they all wear white. And um, they all have different stuff on, but everyone's in like full white outfits, pants and shirts or dresses, whatever. And I can't remember what happens in the episode, but somewhere in the photo, like in the photo session, they're trying to get everybody like there's a kid screaming, and these two are arguing and whatever. And at some point, one of them picks up mud and throws it on the other one. And and like they just stand there like covered in mud, and then they all have a huge mud fight, and they are all messy in white clothes, covered in mud, and they take their family photo.

SPEAKER_02 45:07

Yeah.

Netanya 45:08

And I love it so much. I do too. Because it feels true, it feels honest and raw, it feels how I experience life, and there's beauty in that.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Yeah.

Netanya 45:19

I love that. Yeah. But that messiness of that there's a messiness to everything. Instead of this, like reaching for some arbitrary status or place in life that who somebody made up and you don't even know what you're reaching for because who set the bar? Can you get right with the messiness and find beauty in it? And like maybe, you know, maybe that's not perceived the same way by everyone else. Maybe it's an internal experience that you have to work on cultivating. I have to work on cultivating. And there's even like there was a trip I took a couple years ago. I was in Mexico, and I posted at one point this photo reel, and there were beautiful photos, right? The ocean and um I had a great mocktail and just some other stuff, all these beautiful Mexico photos. And I was the sickest that I have ever been on a trip during that trip. That was one of two days that I left the hotel because I was out cold, like no medication needed. My body just shut down. And I um I was with a friend, and so she was out doing things. We had tickets to go to a tour. She went by herself and I was like tracking her location because she's alone in Mexico just to make,

The Illusion of Perfection

Netanya 46:33

you know. And um, but I was so, so sick. And afterwards, I actually I actually think now that I'm talking this out loud, that might have been the first time I have ever made what I would call a podcast episode. Because I felt so shitty that I had posted this thing that was beautiful and it was so incongruent with the experience that I had actually had that I felt not good about what I had just shown. And like, yes, it was beautiful that those like two hours that I went to the beach. But the other seven days, I was in a hotel room and I didn't move. So I made like a video, it's which exists somewhere in my social media.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

I love that.

Netanya 47:13

And I talked about like, and I think I called it like things aren't always what they seem. Like I and I sat, like I called myself on like in a nice way, but like, hey, I put this thing out here, but you what you didn't see was all the rest of this. And that's always true. You know, even the the family photo with 2.5 kids and a white picket fence, and they're holiday photos where they all match each other. It's like, but you don't know what happened 20 minutes before that. There's a um apparently I'm referencing a lot of things in this in this episode. There's a uh show that Oprah does with uh Michelle Obama. I think it's a Netflix special. And um Michelle Obama is talking about at one part of it that like people kept saying like hashtag relationship goals about her and Obama. Right. And she was like, what? She's like, I was mad at him in that photo. You know, like who made that up? That's not true. Like I was pissed. I didn't want to be married to him for like three decades. But the truth-telling of it and normalizing that, yeah, this is messy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

It's marriage. Outside perspective, though, is rarely right. Like my perspective or perception on something that I see in front of me that absolutely has nothing to do with me is probably 120% wrong. But it's like that I could relate so much to that forced happiness or forced perfectionism because I am one of those forcers where I'm like, this is gonna be amazing. I'm gonna plan this whole day for me and my kids, and it's gonna be fantastic. And then it's like, you know, they're total dicks and it's awful. And I know I didn't call my kids dicks, I promise, but I did. You know, but they are, and then it's just like I had this whole idea in my head that it was gonna be amazing. And then I see videos even or a movie or a show where it's amazing for them, right? And I'm like, why is this not like that for us? Because I'm forcing it so much. And it's not reality, it's not authentic. And so um, I love that the the white clothes and mud, and then the vacation picture, yet I am deathly ill. Yeah. Cause I mean, there's so much to it, but it's like our first, the first thing we see, right? Or hear, it's like, oh, that's fact. When really like it's cognitive distortions all day for for every single human on this planet. We have cognitive distortions all day long. Rarely is anything correct when we first look at it. But yeah, I'm a forced, I am a forced perfection person. And I my market on big time.

Netanya 49:35

And the cognitive part, like the assumptions and j like none of that is ever in your favor.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

No.

unknown 49:42

No.

Netanya 49:42

It's not like you're over here like boosting yourself up. It's almost always some version of comparative suffering where you're making yourself feel like shit one way or another, whether you're aware of it or not.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

Aaron Powell They're talking about me. They don't like me. They're totally looking at me right now. Because, oh, you know, it's all about me, of course, right? But never in a good way. It's yeah. Mm-hmm. Comparative suffering, yes.

Netanya 50:05

Well, and e that's a term, uh Brene Brown term, where you are measuring those things. And it's like, yeah. Um and it's like even if you and I walk by each other in a hallway and make eye contact, right? And I don't say anything to you and you keep walking, you just made that mean so many things.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

Yep.

Netanya 50:25

And you have no facts, and I and like I'm I may have 47, I might not have even seen you, even though we looked at each other. Like if I got something in here and my brain running, I might not have even clocked you. Or I did, and it was you you know what I mean. I could go and make up a bunch of scenarios. But the point is that the story you will tell yourself is often not in your favor.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

And it's and it's absolutely false. Yes. Right? Yeah. I mean, we just we have to separate, like, and that's the process I think of recovery thinking and what I teach

Cognitive Distortions and Self-Perception

SPEAKER_01 50:55

too is like you actually like we can't just wing it anymore, right? Like we don't wing life anymore. We can't do that. Otherwise, we're just impulsive and we drink or be use or we say things we regret, whatever it may be. So it comes down to like that, you know, cognitive triangle of just like, all right, there's a situation, and instead of going from situation to thoughts, I go from situation to feelings without even thinking it through. But then if I do think it through, then it's probably a lot of cognitive distortions. And then I'm, you know, basing my feelings on false evidence. So I feel a certain way about false evidence, right? And it would just, oh my God, we would just clear the air so much with ourselves, with other people, you know, clear our hearts so much if we just actually took a minute to think this through and be like, that's not factual. I cannot base my emotions off that because it's not fact. No. But we do. And I'm saying we in this because that is definitely a we thing. We as humans, we do.

Netanya 51:50

Well, and so much of it is about uh control of perception, perception management. How you're perceived, what other people think. And in truth, it's like even if you you know put those photos out there the exact way you wanted to, and they're perfect, and you really nailed it this time, you have no idea what anyone thought of that. There's gonna be people that react a whole variety of different ways based on their own experience, their own colored glasses of the world that they live in. And, you know, some people may see the photo of you on the beach and be like, that's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. I that's a joy. I'm so happy for you. I love that I want to celebrate you, the genuineness of it. And sometimes people will have the opposite response. There might be jealousy. There will be people that will think, like, who do you think you are? You know, how do oh it must be nice. I mean, pick a per pick a response. But it and that's true about anything. And so that space of like, how do I get better at not needing to control what other people perceive of me and stay in my lane and come back to me and know like why I do things in the first place to to take care of myself. I try to share things that are inspirational and to have as much compassion and kindness in however that's received and what's not mine. Some of that's not mine.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, seeking external validation is a specialty of mine, actually. I have a master's in that, you know, seeking external validation. Um it's true though, right? Like it is, it is true. And so that is, I think, the the piece, though, is like I need to look at this and be like, why am I doing this? Why do I feel like I need this? You know, and then it just comes to inner work once again, inner healing once again, right? And whatever that means to me or looks like for me. And sometimes it's just journaling. Sometimes it's actually getting enough sleep. Sometimes it's talking to my therapist, right? Or whatever it is, you know. But yeah, I think we just we shove so much down, myself included. I shove things and then I preach not to do that, you know. But um, yeah, we need to actually complete that stress cycle and those thought processes. Like we really do. And and so often we're just so busy that we don't, I feel, you know, like it's just so much chaos all the time.

Netanya 54:08

I just said like I shove it down and then I tell people not to. I'm working on that always, being more congruent in what I say to do and how I'm actually living. And sometimes that has been like I have called myself out at work in front of my team before.

SPEAKER_02 54:26

Yeah.

Netanya 54:26

Because I talk to them about having grace with themselves and practicing boundaries, but also being kind. Like I talk about that. And, you know, especially giving grace when you make mistakes. I made a really big mistake the other day and I outed myself to them of like, hey, I I fucked this up. And it was uncomfortable. This is how the client responded. Like I had to walk through. I didn't have to tell them that. I chose to because that's something I committed to is to keep practicing that space of congruence. It's like I I want to be, I mean the things I say, but then the challenge is how do I keep living that? And so when those things come up, it's so uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

Oh, yeah.

Netanya 55:05

But I I want to keep practicing living that and being like, I said that I that I believe this. That means I have to do it too. And that's not always easy.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

Yeah. It's interesting too, because like rigorously authentic, right? Like I I it's such a good thing to strive for. And I feel like, you know, back in my like disease and stuff, right? And even like new recovery, like I I still had to be right. I could never be wrong because I could never be wrong, ever. You know, the world is against me, this, this, this, everybody hates me, so on and so on. And then when I started practicing like step 10, right? Because I I did work the steps numerous times, and I started practicing this whole step 10 of just like when we're wrong, we promptly admit it. And I found it's the craziest thing that I have, I find that I am more empowered by being wrong and talking about how I'm wrong with other people and admitting that I'm wrong and apologizing for it than I am when I have to skirt around things and try to prove my innocence and that I'm right all the time. Like there's more power in being wrong, you know, sometimes, because then people are like, oh wow. People don't do that. People don't sit there and be like, hey, I messed up. How can I mess up? How can I make this right? What can I do? But yet they know. They know I messed it up. Yeah. Right. So whatever it is, you know, they know. So yeah, I just I find it very empowering to just be wrong and admit when you're wrong.

Netanya 56:25

Well, and I think about who do I respect? Right. If I have two people in a room and they had the same, they both have

The Power of Authenticity and Vulnerability

Netanya 56:32

the same scenario and one of them um, you know, tries to justify it or cover it up or explain it away, or well, I was sick and this is why this happened. And um all of that that story that they create to try to keep the persona up versus the someone said, you know, the someone that says, like, yeah, I that was not my finest moment.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

Right.

Netanya 56:54

And I'm really sorry. And I'm sorry that that affected you, and this is what I'm gonna do to move forward from here.

SPEAKER_02 56:58

Yes.

Netanya 56:59

Hundred like tot night and day. It is.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

It really is. And like, yeah, I I I respect that person. That's the person I want to work with, you know, is the one that's not gonna skirt around all of that stuff. But just being authentic and and not being perfect, like we're not supposed to be perfect, you know? And like admitting our imperfections, I I think is just so beautiful and powerful. It really truly is. Um because we're human and we're gonna we're gonna mess up a lot, right? And it's exhausting being right all the time or thinking that you are or trying to prove that you are. Like it is freaking exhausting. Yes. And then we lose who we even are to begin with. And then I'm even more of a perfectionist, and then I set the bar even higher for myself. And I will never reach that bar.

Netanya 57:40

Yeah. Never. Why do you think I'm curious in your own experience, where do you think that comes from for you personally? This the need to be right, the needing external validation, because I don't think it's the same for everyone. And I'm just curious of where you think yours lives. And I'm thinking about where I think mine lives. I already know.

SPEAKER_01 57:57

Shame. That's where it started. You know what I mean? It's shame. It's it's it's being an addict, it's not suc succeeding, quote unquote. Um, in the eyes of, you know, society or my parents or whomever. I mean, my friends are going off to college and I'm I'm and I'm using drugs. And so I think it all it all comes from shame. It's like I cannot have one more thing, you know, tallied on to my record here of like something that's, you know, perceived negative or not good or bad or whatever. Like I have to be okay somewhere. Right. And also like perfectionism, like it runs in our family. Right. Like I I grew up with a mom who's a perfectionist, and I have seen myself acting that way with my kids, and I'm like, oh, I gotta stop. But I also have seen it in them without me. And that's, you know, like two years old coloring outside of the lines and throwing a fit about it. And it's like, oh my God, like it is definitely hereditary too. Like, I mean, it's it's passed on as well. So it's one of those things that we another intentional thing. I have to be super intentional about this, but the first thing I need to know is what it is to begin with. Right? Like I can't look at it if I don't own it.

Netanya 59:06

But yes. Yeah. I think I'm trying to answer my own question. I think some of mine comes from some of mine comes from wanting to belong. I I struggled with that in a lot of ways growing up. And I think I had divorced parents, so I have two different houses, which made two different identities. Yeah. Um, I had I went to this school and then I went to a different high school, then like I it's in a different town, so I was the new kid again, and different friend groups. I was always like I had friends in multiple groups because I did different activities, but I was never a core member of anything.

SPEAKER_02 59:43

Right.

Netanya 59:43

And um I think some of mine the wanting to belong and wanting validation and needing to be right so that I fit in.

SPEAKER_02 59:52

Yeah.

Netanya 59:52

Um, was that that's an old story from like younger, being, you know, a kid and being in high school. And then Yeah. I think wanting to wanting to know that I'm enough. Am I enough? You know, and the not good enough, that's all in that same story. Perfect. I have all that same different versions of perfectionism, but the the like I'm good enough. Yeah. Like I want the stamp that says that I'm good enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

Yes.

Netanya 1:00:20

And then that practice of how do I give that to myself, which sounds much easier than it is. But I am practicing it, and I do think I do think it's gotten better over time. And it's not, it's not that it doesn't still come up because it does. It's more about how I respond to it when it does. Um, because it does come up and I notice it, and I'm for a long time I was like a hammer on myself in all sorts of ways. And I have the most compassion for anyone else. If you made the same mistake I did, wouldn't even phase me, I wouldn't think twice, I would have forgot about it yesterday and just been like, cool, move on. It's already done. And then me, I just keep revisiting and revisiting and replaying it and what I should have done differently. Um, and that space of I have I have a word of the year I pick every year, and two years ago, my word was grace. Yeah. And it was the reason I chose that word was because of what I just said. I needed to practice how do I do that for me? And so that space of like, you did make a mistake. Yes. You know, and it's it does, I do still beat myself up. I'm not gonna pretend that I don't, but I I do think I don't live there as long.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:28

Right. God, I love that so much too. Cause I mean, I think this is where like people in recovery or people who are actively looking at themselves and working on themselves, right, through whatever process, I I love them so much, right? I love it so much because it's like being perfectly imperfect and and and wanting to be okay with that, striving to be okay with it, you know. It's like those are humble people. They really are. And and if we don't have those things to learn from, then what are we even doing? Like if I don't ever need to grow, right? Or respond differently to something, then what is what are we even doing here? You know, that's literally everybody who needs to. I like your answer too, and I'm gonna take that one as well. Low self-worth, low self-esteem growing up, all of that as well. Yes. My my kids, my daughter, she's 10, and she even comes home and she talks about this stuff like this kid lied about this, and they said that this and this. And I'm like, why do you think they lie about themselves?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:19

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:20

And I'm like, because they want to fit in, because they want to seem cool. Because God forbid, people just accept each other for who they are, especially at 10 years old. Nobody does. You know, it's ho it's horrible. You would think that like everybody was just born of acceptance, and I think they were, right? But then somewhere along the line, after a few years and going to school and learning and you know, just being around other kids, it's it's it's it's sad, honestly. It's really hard. So my kids and I talk a lot about that about just being authentic. And if people don't want to be around you, it oh well, they're lost, you know, but it's so much easier said than done when you're a kid. Yeah. I love that. I love that you talk to them about that. All the time. All the time. Yeah. It's just so hard.

Netanya 1:03:03

Yeah. I have one last question. Yeah. Um, if someone listens to this episode and hears all the things that we talked about, what would you give them permission to do after listening?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

Oh my God, just write down your goals. And it it like no goal is too big. It's really not, you know, like sometimes I look back and I'm like, God, am I like I'm done with school. I'm a licensed clinician. Like, I

Permission to Pursue Your Dreams

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

really have this amazing, I have a career, right? Um, just do not give up. Like, I like I swear to you, you will never, ever, ever hate yourself for pushing yourself to do better and to be better and to accomplish those goals and those dreams. Even if it's like owning your own restaurant, do not give up. Just keep going. Um the system's not gonna help you, so just you know, radically accept that right now. Um, but there are many out there who will, you know, and like we just we have to do this together. We do. And like you're not alone. I don't know what you're going through, anyone, but you're not alone.

Netanya 1:04:00

Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for spending time with me today. Thanks for inviting me. Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to NataniAllison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.