EP45: The Space Between Loss and Living | Permission to Change Your Life — with Matthew Hillman

There is a strange, quiet gravity that shifts when you lose the anchors of your family tree. Suddenly, you aren’t just looking back at your roots—you’re looking at what you're leaving behind.

We often treat grief like a linear checklist. But in this episode sitting down with Matthew Hillman, a sudden family passing holds up a mirror to our own lives, sparking a raw, introspective, and surprisingly funny conversation about what it means to rebuild yourself from the inside out. From the chaos of restaurant kitchens to the grueling realities of the daily grind, we explore how changing the story you tell yourself can change your entire reality.

The Core Conversation:

• Sitting in the Heavy Spaces:
  How sitting at a funeral forces us to ask, “What am I leaving behind?”—and the final words of a grandmother that sparked the courage to leave a safe, unaligned world.
• The Exhaustion of Doing It Alone: 
  Unpacking the crushing belief that we have to solve every crisis entirely on our own, and how a single moment of honesty shatters isolation.
• The Things We Leave in the Dark:
  A deep dive into the hidden, unexamined parts of our identity we hide away because they are messy, and the radical freedom of letting them into the light.

We wrap up this episode with a mutual pact and a literal permission slip to live. If you've been waiting for a flawless, non-existent roadmap to step into a new era of your life—this is your reminder to stop waiting.

Full episode and show notes: netanyaallyson.com/episodes/45

Transcript

Reflections on Loss and Ancestry

Netanya 0:09

This podcast is about the um is about the training points that the things I wish someone had told me that I only understand and looking back. Come on in, you belong here, and we're gonna talk about all of it. I'm your host Natanya, and this is what I didn't know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Matthew Hellman. In this episode, we look at what happens when you stop pretending everything is perfect and are willing to face the messy parts of yourself. We discuss how finally telling the truth can help you break the exhausting habit of isolation, and we dive into how sitting with the pain of loss can be an unexpected invitation to completely change your life. Let's dive in. Let's start with your grandfather.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

You want to talk about my grandfather?

Netanya 1:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

I thought we were going to talk about my literacy.

Netanya 1:24

Did you math my literacy? Um, no, but I I I think the concept of like ancestors losing people, the people that have come before us, what I have learned from them, where there are parts of that that I try to honor or I miss or I've had to let go of. And um what I still keep with me is just always a beautiful thing. And it's I think loss is loss is hard. There's no there's not like an end to it. I think people are always like, Are you done grieving that? And it's like there's not a timeline on any of that experience. So I've just I'm curious as to what your what your experience has been like the past few weeks and where that has found you.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Yeah. My grandfather passed away, it was April 30th. Which at this point, I guess it was about two weeks ago. And um what's really wild is like my mom's dad went into the hospital a couple weeks before, and then her mom went into the hospital. And uh like like a week after that, and then the following week I get a call from my mom at work, which she like never does, and I was like, oh no, like one of my grandparents passed away. And it was my dad's dad. Jesus. And I was like, what is happening? You know, so my poor mom's gone through it, but but yeah, I've been reflecting on on that a lot. Like this is the first time that I've sort of lost somebody, you know, close to me. Where it it made me think a lot about sort of where I came from and um, I guess my own ancestry or genealogy, and like it's interesting how like somebody passing away can really like sort of bring the clearest reflection of um like your own relationship with your life, you know. Uh I think seeing a funeral, it's the first time I've I've really been to a funeral where I can or I'm kind of all there and can remember what's going on, you know. I think the first one I was really young, and the second one I just it was kind of a mess at the time, you know, like outside of just a lot of stuff going on. But this was the first time uh, you know, where I I was I was there and I got to just kind of see people come up and hear what they had to say about my grandfather and and reflect and and their memories of him and and you know, and it gets me thinking, like, you know, what is what would people say at my funeral, you know, like what am I gonna leave behind as far as memories and stories and and friends and and things like that? And um I don't know, I I feel like I came back just from that weekend with sort of maybe more of like a tenderness or some sort of solemn appreciation for life and the opportunities that we have to like really have uh you know good friends and and um and to make good memories and things like that. Yeah, so I came back and like um immediately like for the first time in like a year, I like bricked my phone again. I don't know, just I felt like the need to like went for a run and I don't know. Some of it I guess is super the superficial desire to to show up for myself more or something, you know, now that I'm like had that emotional experience, which I think, you know, happens that can happen for uh for other reasons other than like somebody dying, I don't know, breakups or uh whatever, uh other stuff. But yeah, this was the first time that I had been to a funeral like that and and really reflected on it. We called my grandfather Bobby, um, the one who passed away, and uh we called his wife, my grandmother, Ami. And Ami passed away when I don't know, it was right before I got clean. And it was like one of those moments, like I dropped out of college after that, and it was kind of like the nail in the coffin for like my ability to continue like going to school at the time. I had a lot of stuff going on. You know, I was really in like the throes of my own self-destruction at the time. And and then I found like and she just died suddenly. She had a massive heart attack and died. And I just remember being completely shattered. And uh, there's a big difference between kind of the way that I feel now, which I think is a little bit more healthy and introspective as opposed to just like the pure devastation I had when my my grandmother passed away. Yeah, it's like I had, I don't know, I moved up I moved up the family tree. My my gr my dad's like the oldest hillman now, you know? It's uh he had that realization when I think when we were sitting in the memorial service, I heard him say something like that, that he's like, I'm the oldest living hillman on this side of the tree now. And uh so those are kind of the things I've been thinking or reflecting on in the past few days at least.

Netanya 6:36

I had my grandma passed away, and my grandfather had already died when I was thirteen. And so she was she was like the glue that held everybody together that was we all had these family events and things that we would still go to. And after she passed away, it was like that sh th she had five kids. So the the individual five families sort of split, like not in any bad way, but just we live in different places, have different lives. Like there's great grandkids at this point. So, you know, people that where we would all like make the thing to get to the family reunion for everybody. It's just kind of dwindled and changed. And I found it interesting how just for so many years that was a glue or the why we did something, and that now it's different. And and let that be okay that traditions change or you make new ones, or you know, I had I had moved, I'm from Chicago, and I moved to Colorado for a couple of years, then I moved here. And like things that I used to do with family and you know, be brought together isn't a thing anymore. I had Christmas the very first year, and I think I was alone. I might have been alone. I don't remember the timelines of everything, but just that like this thing the way that it was because of these people that were here is no longer and what do we want to do with that? And I feel blessed that my family is pretty. You know, everybody gets along with each other for the most part. It's not a difficult situation these days. But just that space of of what does that mean now and who do what do I want to make my life into, you know? And then the other thing I wanted to say is I've never told this story before, I don't think. Um my grandma when she passed away to touch on what you what you said in the beginning about like when you're contemplating life and like what you it it does bring this thing up, the concept of impermanence and who do I want to be and you know that this is gonna happen to me at some point. And she was she was dying and at the very end she was in um like uh I don't even remember what the place was that she was in, but we were all very aware that this was the end, right? And so we would take turns coming and going and visiting her, and um I was there with her one day and um she said to me I have to remember how she said it. Um she turned to me and it was just me and her, and I have a pretty big family, so that it was pretty rare that we were alone. Um and she said to me

Confronting Impermanence

Netanya 9:07

like she she was contemplating life the way she was sort of talking to the air and just to whatever was in the room with her and around her, and she looked at me and she said maybe I never really liked myself and it was gut-wrenching and true that that was her experience, but I just it it it hit me really hard. Something about the fact that like this is the home stretch, this is your last words, these are your last, you know, things that you're saying. And at the very end, like she wasn't in a battle with God or her husband or her children or whatever. She was in a battle with herself. And something about that I remember writing, I made notes like in my phone because I wrote down, she said a couple other things, but that was the one that hit me the hardest. Um and I I remember taking notes, going home, and I I just had this like profound awareness that I did not want my story to go that way at the end. And I mean, she had a beautiful life or many other things. It was about her internal state with herself. And I just thought like I don't I don't want to regret those kinds of things. And so I started to look at how I made choices differently and what would I regret? Like if if my last day was tomorrow, like not to be dramatic about it, but just if it really was the cliff tomorrow, what would I wish that I would have done or said? And how can I start doing more of those things in my daily life to become a person that lives that way? Again, for me, not so much the bucket list of like every single big thing, but more like how do I live my life on a daily level to a way that feels fulfilling to me so that I feel like I'm in integrity with myself and that I'm not um I'm not sitting there at the end of my road wishing that I had been a different person. And that that changed a lot for me. And I I don't I like I said, I don't think I've told that to very many people out loud other than maybe my mom. But after that that was in the spring of 2018 that she passed away, and in the the fall of 2018, I left my marriage because I was I was lying to me and I was so terrified of the truth telling of things or you know, what happens next. I was just afraid. Like I don't I built this thing that I know and this is safe and sturdy and I know this life. I don't know what's over there, you know. And I just kept thinking like would I regret staying or leaving? And I I kept I was like I'm drowning in this. And so that was the beginning of what then took my life on a very different trajectory. But it was because of that conversation that she wasn't even having with me, she was having with herself. But I just happened to be the witness of it and but that space of being with someone who's in a liminal place of being in between and it's very real. So yeah, but when you said that about the questioning of what do you want to do with that, it does m ask bigger questions of you, I think.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Yeah, really um It's like a it's a very specific feeling and it's it's not something that I give myself. You know, when I wake up and I go and sell insurance, I don't wake up and and feel introspective in that way.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

But when my grandfather passed away, I I don't know, it did open that. It's nice that um something that I was thinking about when uh when you were just speaking is is just how sometimes real hearing somebody, you know, close to you, especially family, be really emotionally honest, it it feels to me like, at least in my life, it's it's maybe kind of a rare thing and maybe less so now that that I've been on my recovery journey. I think that my family's maybe a little bit more forward about emotional um things. But a lot of my really vivid memories, like early emotional memories, are whether it be my like mom or uh or dad or like you know, when my grandparents or my uncles or something said something to me that just was very honest. And I feel like that's uh because it can be hard to know like what to feel about things, you know, like I'm not the best at being able to like have an emotion and to like just really feel it and know what it is right away and know what to do with it and what it means, you know, for me. You know, what's the meaning of that feeling? And I think that sometimes like just having um somebody you know close to you just be honest about what they're feeling. It's like you can see what it is that they uh like how how they're processing it and to be able to relate to it. Uh I remember like just like before I got clean, I went and visited my uncle who lives in Colorado, and and and he just said a lot of stuff to me that was just kind of it was one of the first times that I had kind of been around an adult that I was willing to listen to, you know, because he's my uncle, he's family. You know, there are a lot of people had told me a lot of things and gave me a lot of suggestions that I refused would be probably the best word for it. But it wasn't until I heard somebody in my family just like kind of talking about like their experience and just just sharing things like emotionally that that I think I I don't know that I had really had an adult conversation like that, just like adult to adult, like just being honest emotionally. And um it really opened me up to like the just the suggestion of change. And that and that's that kind of was the impetus of me like on the on the journey that I've been on for the past few, you know, few years, uh was that trip and and really like that kind of conversation. Um and my you know, my uncle didn't die, he was on his deathbed. Uh I couldn't remember really what he said, you know. Um not great with details and and conversations sometimes. But yeah.

Netanya 15:32

But like you remember the way it felt.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

I just yeah, I just remember the way it felt. Like in so many times I think that when you feel like something happens and you feel bad, and it's like, okay, I learned that I don't want that thing. And you know, sometimes something really bad happens, and then you learn to never have that thing again. And I think that's probably trauma. That's probably like the definition of trauma. But then it's like you learn things or you you have those feelings where sometimes it's like something that's really good and you and you want to just have that again. And uh I think for the longest time uh I was living in avoidance. Everything was avoidance. Uh because I I think it just takes a different kind of energy, a different kind of like effort or awareness to kind of flip that switch from being a very reactive person in my life and making decisions on just trying to avoid loss or avoid scarcity or avoid vulnerability. And I think that like through my journey in recovery and and through experiences like this, you know, where I've been able to be present with losing my grandfather, uh like early conversations with my uncle or many, many conversations I've had with people while I've been in recovery. Uh that I totally lost my train of thought. I don't know what I was talking about. But um uh uh but yeah, I just like not living in like an avoidance or like a running from, but you know, more of a running like to uh what it is that I want. And you said something uh that I that I remember I

The Journey of Self-Discovery and Change

SPEAKER_00 17:24

had this meditation. I used to meditate a lot when I first got clean. And uh I had this meditation that was very similar to kind of what you were talking about, having this experience uh experience of like, if you were to die tomorrow, what would it be like? And I remember I used to have this meditation that I did and I haven't done for a long time, but you know, it was um essentially I would I would find gratitude for myself and compassion for myself and then understanding and then love for myself, and then I would do that, I would find it for somebody else. It was always, you know, and always it was just the person that came up, and it was always the person I was the most frustrated with. I was like, how can I find compassion for this person? And then I would, you know, find all those things for what I describe as like God and for everything. It was really just kind of like an expansive, like just kind of more of an abstract, just putting that out there and just kind of um but uh in during that meditation one time I would do that and then I would sit in silence and just see what would come to me. And I remember I had this thought that it was like it's not what I would do if I would die tomorrow. And I remember I kind of felt like I was like standing at the front of like this gate. And but you know, but and but you know, you go to take a step into the gate, and the gate is just you're just where you were the f before. And like beyond it is like this. I I remember it in my head, it's like a very visual thing, it's like this big like opalescent path with like mountains and clouds and everything, it's just look like opal kind of like in my head. And it was like you take this, you take a step in there, but you you are where you were, and it's like, how do you take that first step through that gate? And I thought to myself, it's not what I would do if I was gonna die tomorrow, but it's like, what step would I take today if I had to live forever? Like if I was going to live a thousand lives, a million lives, you know, and you were just in, I guess what Christians might describe as like purgatory or or whatever it might be, or samsara, or it's like, what step would you have to take if you were going to live forever and that there was no there was no respite from it at all? And there was no death. Yeah, and I found that like the answers I was coming to, you know, were just it's like this, you know, compassion and and gratitude and understanding and love and you know, these kind of tenets of of uh be that something that you could meet any moment with regardless of circumstance. You saying that reminded me of that. I haven't thought of that in a long time, but if I had brought up that.

Netanya 19:57

What I love about that is that I I've been trying to meditate more. It it's not my strong suit at all, but I just I know it's good for me. And I really, when I do it, I get a lot out of it. And even whether the very minimum, it starts my day on a calm, like steady, you know, cadence at the very minimum. And on many occasions, I do have, you know, a vision of something, or I'll see something, or find my way through a message, or and that's hard to explain. But literally yesterday I sat on that couch and meditated and I was in front of a gate. And I just had to like I was very aware that on the other side of the gate was kind of a new era for me. And without going into many things about my life, but I just I was in front of this gate, it was beautiful gate. And I like just pushed it open. And it like on the other side was this almost like a fairy tale land, like a Disney princess sort of thing, but there's all these like winding, you know, um, trails and trees everywhere, and like in the distance is a castle and mountains and just like this beautiful. I always think of um one of my favorite lines is from the Lion King, which is like everything the light touches is your kingdom. It just felt like that.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Everything the light touches is your kingdom.

Netanya 21:32

Um but that literally was yesterday, the fact that you brought that up about a gate, because I and I just it's funny because it's not I didn't used to know how to describe things like that. Cause it's not like in the movies they show it as like someone having a vision is like being like seized or taken over, or their body is, you know. Um and I've just learned for me it's not like that, and it's not me either. There's a difference between intentionally visualizing. something on purpose to try to like set your way into something versus I'm just suddenly here and I it's sort of allow it in. But that that gate, that's crazy that you just brought that up. And I was like, that literally happened to me yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

I think that's a shared experience among a lot of people in meditation. That's what that was my understanding whenever I shared about that previously. So I said other people have had that experience too.

Netanya 22:23

Do you feel like as far as that like answering some of those questions or living with compassion, do you feel like you embody those things on a regular basis or not so much?

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Oh no, not at all.

Netanya 22:34

Yeah?

SPEAKER_00 22:35

No. I think I uh because I think it's something that you have to practice and I've simply stopped practicing it. You know? And I I know, I mean I know without a doubt that if I did those things, I if I continued that meditation practice, oh my life would be so much better. You know, so I'm not going to pretend like I I used to do it. Hey I used to do I did it every day for like six months. It was that I would wake up the first thing I would do in the morning is I would meditate. Like I wouldn't even get out of my bed sometimes. And I reached a point where I would even be meditating before I woke up and I would be in that state like coming out of a dream already meditating and I would wake up um you know feeling like that. And it was incredible and I haven't had that experience in years.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Why did you not do that?

SPEAKER_00 23:24

God that is that is the golden question, right? That is uh that's it right there. Uh I don't have a good answer for you. It's just like one day I put it one day I put it I know it's funny I got sick I think is what happened. I got I got COVID when I was working for Amazon delivering Amazon packages. And I just got sick and then I and I I I think I skipped like one day of meditating and I just never did it again.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Because I'm a freaking I don't know you know it's just all oh gotta be perfect or if it's not perfect then then I've failed or whatever. And you know and I think that you know six months into being clean that would have I probably felt you know less less compassion for myself or you know or it was less uh forgiving and uh and just picking up that habit again. But I think that there was also kind of like all right I tried that now I'm gonna try whatever else uh you know exercise or career stuff trying you know I went left the Amazon and went to go sell cars which is probably like the least spiritual thing you can do um but you know uh you gotta you gotta eat and uh but I I learned a lot of lessons selling cars too because it's like the um as much as there are these ethereal like spiritual answers you know and things that that can really I think like improve your quality of life or at least your quality of like perception and like your relationship with yourself um you know with meditation and things like that you know I'd be an idiot not to acknowledge that there's also very practical real-world skills that also will improve your life you know like having having a a stable source of income and the skills to be able to like navigate in a world this this physical and like monetary world really is is its own skill and like I think that like being able to be comfortable in that is not uh I wouldn't say that that's like the end goal spiritually, but I have found reward and at least some level of peace and just not being worried about how I'm going to afford a bagel like which is becoming you know more and more of a real problem for I think a lot of people so you know it's uh I think that maybe I moved on a little bit too much in that direction. I remember very early on when

Navigating Life Choices and Personal Growth

SPEAKER_00 26:17

one of my like early therapists, we didn't do any kind of it was all meditation and mindfulness. You know, one of the first people who uh I spoke with and probably like the most meaningful therapy I've uh ever experienced was mostly just like awareness, mindfulness and awareness, like mindfulness training and awareness. It was all like Eastern philosophy kind of stuff. And it helped me a lot. I mean it it it led me to all the things that we talked about previously but I remember him telling me it's like you know you'll probably leave here and you'll go and try and you'll have to make money to figure out how to live and try not to move away from this you know you don't have to abandon this to do that. But I very successfully abandoned my early realizations in in chase of the bag, I guess but I'm not rich or anything. I'm not I'm not on like the hustle culture necessarily I mean I think that that's it's just too exhausting for me. You know if you can if you can keep up with it then great.

Netanya 27:22

But well in the sense of I'm gonna bring this back to something you said the other night that seems not related but pinged in my brain so I'm gonna bring it up. You were talking about writing music or playing playing music and learning the phantom of the opera.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Yeah grandma Yeah I never I never learned it. Right.

Netanya 27:44

I did read through it once I think but so that's what I'm that's what I'm bringing up is that you had in your head that you were going to learn that and then she passed away and you didn't learn it. And that feeling of like shulda cuda wulda it was too late. It's already over what stops you from learning it now?

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Um geez, I don't know. It's honestly not something I've thought about until just reflecting on it the other night I think like my goal I mean specifically learning the Phantom of the opera, right? I mean there are a lot of things that I think that the question that you're asking can be kind of inflated into a a broader sense into like what I presently have or am presently avoiding rather like I I assume that that's yes kind of what you're asking. Um I mean the reason I haven't I I don't know she she passed away I played through it once it was a lot harder than I thought it was going to be to learn. You know I played through it once for my grandfather poorly and he appreciated it. And then I and then after that I was kind of like I honestly I listened to the fan of the opera I'll be honest I was like I it's not my favorite piece of music you know and it tip but it takes a lot of effort to learn it. But these days it's it's uh I don't know it's hard. I think that I think that sometimes I'm better than others like you know I'll I'll find something you know a goal or you know an event or something that to prepare for and I'll just I'll put a lot of energy into that I'll really focus on that and and um you know I think that the reality is there's only so many hours in the day and like whatever it is that you choose to do like you're gonna have to like sacrifice something else because you can't do everything all at once all the time. It's just not possible. I think that like choosing to do things that are rewarding is that's really the the challenge is to kind of like pick the right thing and spend that time doing something that's like going to leave you with a sense of fulfillment. And um geez, I don't know I mean I think that I've been definitely on like a uh I'd say for probably the past two years or so it feels like I've definitely fallen into a lot of like grabby grabby material like find something want it get it immediately want something else you know just and and I think that some of that is like an exploration of me kind of figuring out who I am and what the things that I want are and you know and and living and learning through mistakes as opposed to like trying to live and learn through other people's mistakes or I don't know.

Netanya 30:26

But I love that because it's a process.

SPEAKER_00 30:28

Yeah I'm yeah I'm in a I I've been in kind of a process of figuring out like what it is that I I want for for myself and and what interests do I really have and what and you know what energy am I gonna put where and kind of figuring out what the next thing is. I think that like I've been able to do a lot of things for myself. Like I think I always kind of wanted to have a band it's nice we got a band we have some songs we can play some songs that's nice you know and I when from a young age what I always really wanted to do was to be able to play piano and like I think I kept that to myself until I was about 20. But I remember my grandmother had this piano that my grandfather got for her and it was like I just remember she would she would play it she could play anything she could sight read and she would play these songs. I just thought it was like so magical and I remember I always really wanted to do that and uh when I was like twenty I I spent one year going to school to be a pilot actually I flew planes for a year. I never got my pilot's license uh because I just it wasn't all the people who fly planes are like that's like their favorite thing. Like they look up at the sky, they see a plane you know at least all the guys I was in school with are like wow that's this plane and it's got this kind of engine and seats this many people and it's so cool and this is the history of that plane and oh my God look at that plane and I was like that thing's a it's a bird like I don't know it's it's up there like it is in the sky you know I just remember sitting behind like the in the cockpit and being like God I feel like I'm driving like a really like complicated and stressful bus. Like that's like it just how it made me feel you know that's not that's not like my reflection of pilots. That's just how I felt flying a plane. I was like God this is I was like this is stressful kind of being up there and I was like I don't know that I want to do this for forever for the rest of my life. I don't know. And then I so I switched and I went to school for piano. I'd never taken a piano lesson before when I went to college and I at least got my associates in piano but I went for like five years and now I can sort of play piano I guess. You can you know that's what I did when I was was in my in my twenties my yeah my twenties arc was basically at least early 20s was learning how to play piano.

Netanya 32:46

But that's that space of like what I'm what I'm enjoying greatly about listening to you talk is that I've been in that space of like trying things on and what is this who I am or who I want to be do I like this is it fun is it worth it and I did that for a long time and I have I have two degrees in college that I don't use either of like technically the actual degree and I use a lot of skills that I got from those experiences absolutely but like I didn't do the thing that that I went to school for. Um and I'm not sorry about that. You know I'm I followed sort of the yellow brick road of intuition of like well that this isn't what I thought it was going to be or kind of like you said I I followed something that felt good and then got into it and was like oh for one reason or another this is not my thing. And then I would go this way and try this other thing and then I was like well I need to make more money. So I would do you know you're kind of making choices I think the best you can while you're trying to figure out who you are and there's no timeline for that there's no age for that like there's not a manual on how to be an adult and figure out what your purpose is on this journey. But it's been it's been fascinating to keep trying to navigate that, listen to myself a lot of what my own intuition guides me through or directions that I choose to go in don't necessarily agree with society, which is uncomfortable as shit to like there was a year a couple years ago in three times in the same year I turned down jobs that

Navigating Career Choices and Personal Growth

Netanya 34:24

were all pay raises and like status raise or title raises, whatever you want to call that because they it wasn't a good fit for me for one reason. And like it wasn't that I can't do them. It was just I'm I'm gonna say no to this. Like and everyone's like what do you mean? Why would you do that? And it's not comfortable and oftentimes like again from the outside I feel like if you were to just read my resume actually chronologically in the way that I did things it looks like I don't know what I'm doing at all and I'm all over the place. But like I can tell you at each point in time what was happening in my life, why I made this choice, why this choice was lateral, why this was a quote step back, which I don't believe in but like in the in the society way that things are taught and structured but finding that space of like who do you want to be and how do I want to spend my time is is not a quick answer. And you know I wish I wish there was a better way through that. But like sometimes the only way through is through of trying things and like every time you try something you then have contrast and you learn what you like and don't like about the thing and then make a new choice from that space and go in this direction. And the hope is that as you keep winding and making choices that you get more and more clear towards the things that you love and the things that you want and that light you up and how you want to spend your time or what you want to do here. And you know I've seen I think there's like a false that that concept of purpose or that you have one reason to be here or like why are you you know it's sort of put on a pedestal of like if you don't get here you somehow failed or that there's one right thing that you should be doing and if you're not doing it you're off track. And my experience with that has been not true and messy. And there's been lots of things where I have been in other jobs or places in life that were not my dream, but I still found like magic in them or connectivity in them or moments in them that I really loved even though this was not the thing that I wanted to spend my time doing. Whether it was the people or part of a mission of a greater thing or you know I've worked in restaurants on and off for years and there's a there's a joy that I've gotten with I've worked in different cities that are tourism based. And like when someone walks in and they're on a break from their life and you know you can you can tell the story of I'm a I'm a waitress and I take food orders and I bring people food and that's what I do. You can tell that story and somewhere in there I chose to tell a different story and that was like I am a reprieve from people's lives and I get to be in this space of you know chitty chatting with them when I lived in Colorado everybody wants to know where you're from because everybody's traveling and they're like how'd you get here and what's Chicago like and um to just be like it's almost a form of entertainment but it's just me being genuine about that experience. And I can remember changing the way I thought about the thing made the whole thing different for me. I stopped being an order taker that felt very not something that I was really excited to talk about to being fun. I had fun with people I worked with I got to you know I was in recovery at the time I'm I'm talking about it was a couple years ago and I everybody knows that I'm in recovery. So I get to be it's one of my favorite things is to be in recovery not in a recovery space. A lot of people like to stay in the rooms or the the service work and that's awesome I also do that. But one of my favorite things was being in the hospitality industry in restaurants being in recovery and everybody knew it and being very open about that and never have I been preachy but I cannot tell you how many times someone would come find me late at night as we're closing down like some older people, younger people that were just like hey I think I might have a problem. And that that all of that was not in the job that I wanted to do with the rest of my life. I think finding moments of how to enjoy where I am with what I have while I'm still figuring it out is just a really magical way to live. And you know there was one time I was serving and this family came in that I they came in very occasionally they traveled and would visit and they would always ask for me. And their dad died like the main the they're like head of their family who I had met several times and they were there for the funeral. That's why they were in town and they were emotional and it was beautiful in the way of they're just like we we just wanted to come hang out. Like this is hard and you know we just want to come breathe while we're working through something and we didn't have any food and we came see you. You know? And it's just I think there's a lot to perspective of how you're walking the path of life as you're making steps this way and steps that way. That it can feel daunting or like you don't have it figured out and that's somehow a flaw in other people especially when you're comparing yourself, right? That other people have shit figured out and I don't know.

Finding Joy in Unconventional Jobs

Netanya 39:30

And it's like I think it's been a gift that I've I've continually chosen to find things in whatever I'm doing that it's like well this may not be the thing that I want to do and I may not love this but there's gold in parts of it. And even if the gold is just it's keeping me stable and steady so that I can you know in my time off like I don't have to worry about money or I don't have to worry about getting my bills paid. Which then brings you up to the space of relief from avoidance and can start to consider like what could I do from here.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Yeah. Yeah I also worked in restaurants. Yeah similar experience I I genuinely really enjoyed working in restaurants. But I I am like kind of a masochist you know and uh I think there was something that was really nice about kind of being like a like a ghost or a fly on the wall for just everybody, you know, because it's like everybody eats. So you get every like all sorts of kinds but I always like to work in like just the most chaotic and I always enjoyed being like, oh yeah my serving experience is like the shittiest craziest thing that like you could ever do. And then to follow it up with all all the nightlife after the serving experience like was the shittiest and craziest thing that we could have been done. It didn't matter where you were like you know just if you they found out you're in the service industry you start telling war stories and stuff like immediately I really enjoyed that. So when I got I remember distinctly when I was job hunting very early on in recovery I was like I cannot I was like I like I can't now for me personally I just was like I can't ever serve a table again. I just I have to find another way to make it I just can't um because I I knew for certain like I was like there's only one way that I want to serve tables and it's like that. It's just chasing chaos.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

And so uh so that was for me like that that was the decision I had to make for myself. I think serving tables could be really really good though. I mean you get a lot of personal personal skills and it's yeah and like I said it's n it's nice to kind of be like a fly on the wall in everybody's life for for you know 30 minutes or an hour, you know, while they're eating you get to get a very kind of an air of whatever it is that they have to offer like personally or or about their whatever it is that they want to talk about their career. Like you know they're if they're at a funeral or if they're at a graduation or if they're at a they've got some event they're going to do downtown or they're a doctor or they're just you get to kind of get little little bits of all the different kinds of people that exist in this world and and to just get little snapshots of them.

Netanya 42:25

I liked that but um yeah I was a little a little too addicted to the uh you know the afterwork activities it is and that's very common and I don't recommend what I did. I and I had to check myself when I first first went into because I've been serving for many years but when I took a job serving after I was like I was like four months into recovery and the only reason I took it is because the friend that got me the job he was also in recovery and he had like 10 years and he was like you'll be fine here. It's a good place. And so that was where but even in there I had to check myself and like is this going to bother me? Does this make me want to you know does this make me want to use anything? Is it how does it actually affect me? And I found for me it was more task oriented. Like it's just like checklist of things I had to do. And so I somehow was able to step out of the feeling of addiction that came with that. But I don't recommend it.

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Yeah hey I mean it's a it could be a good job. It's nice because you can you can get hired and you can get paid quickly which I think a lot of people need to just get a job but it can be hard just being surrounded by like a bunch it it doesn't really matter where you're working. You'll find people who are um not trying to leave the restaurant when they get off their shift. Yeah it's it's interesting. I remember distinctly when I first started because like my first job when I got clean was I I drove and delivered packages for Amazon. And that was uh just basically getting chased by Dogs, you know, for a living. Um out in like bowling green. But then I was like, alright, I'm gonna try and sell cars. I had no sales experience, and for some reason I thought that like that would be a good idea. And I think it was in the long run, but I mean it was hard because I thought that like I don't know what I thought, but I thought that my my experience in serving tables and just being willing to approach people and to talk to them would translate into into sales, into s into selling cars. And I think in like a very in like a very surface level way it did, but man, there there are a lot more skills involved in closing, you know, deals for tens of thousands of dollars than there is in like trying to get somebody uh yeah, an extra side of ranch or something, you know. And I I think I was basically had a panic attack for six months looking back on it. I just remember like one day I had to leave early because I ate a couple um like bacon, egg, and cheese biscuits from McDonald's, and I thought I was gonna have a heart attack. And I don't know if it's because I had like eight coffees or if it was the McDonald's or if it was just the the idea of walking up to somebody and trying to get them to buy a car just scared the shit out of me. I don't know, but it I think it was good. It's like I I I wound up learning how to do it, and I left, you know, with the ability to to sell a car, I guess. Um, you know, and I'm glad that I learned how to do that because I think I learned a lot of skills because it's just I mean, it was like really I've never had anything where I've felt like I had been just thrown into the fire before, you know? Um so I'm glad I did it like just for the challenge to be able to say that I did that. But like, would I ever do it again? I mean if my life gets turned upside down or something, maybe but I think what is your experience like with being in the spotlight?

Netanya 46:02

Like so you have I mean I mean serving to an extent is a stage on a of its own. And then you have we talked about car sales and obviously actual stages with the keyboard and music and what how do you feel about being

The Thrill of Performance and Creativity

Netanya 46:16

in the seat of like shining, so to speak?

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Yeah, being like face forward. It's um you know, it's funny, it it just depends on what I'm it depends on what I'm doing. I I don't really get nervous if I'm doing percussion in any way, like if I or singing doesn't make me nervous. Playing piano and singing makes me nervous for whatever reason. I'll just shut down. My brain will shut down sometimes, and like I am totally I'm like in a fugue state sometimes, and I finish the performance and I like don't remember anything or how it went. Um uh I don't know if it's just my brain's completely overloaded, but like it just like I get I get nervous doing that. It's something uh I I like it, I think. I don't know how to describe it. I think maybe I just like the thrill of it all. Because it's kind of like it it it doesn't really matter what stage you're on, I guess. Like you're just your mistakes become very obvious, like you know, in a in a car deal, like if you make a mistake, you'll know because that person's never gonna talk to you again. And you you didn't tell the car. And your gen generally your general manager is like is like saying mean things to you. That's how you know that like you made a mistake. Uh but I don't know. But then in like music, it's like everybody knows. You just whether you know something about music or not, it's like it just seems like everybody knows whether or not you you're messed up or not. I I I like it. I I just like the challenge of it. Like I like things that you know have some risk and and reward to them. Like I've always with I guess serving tables you get paid and tips and sales, you get paid kind of based on like your merit. And like I don't really get paid to do music, but my reward comes just from my own awareness of how I did in a performance, you know, and like being able to just put on a show and like if people enjoyed themselves like that for me is is rewarding to be able to put that effort in and to have people respond to it however it is. So I don't I don't know. I don't know if that answers your question at all.

Netanya 48:33

How do you feel about the creative process? And I'm specifically asking because of the performance that you put on, like I don't know, it was a month ago, um, in which you didn't have anything planned and then got on stage and closed the night out with the crash. I I just call it crash, I don't know what else to call it, but it was but I like that was completely off the cuff. And that was I think what made it so great was that you just got on stage and essentially played chords and told a story, it's slightly singing, slightly telling a story about something that actually happened in your life that was hilarious. And I thought about that for weeks afterwards because it was so funny because we were just laughing. And what but what was so great was that it wasn't planned. And like that state of being in the flow state of creativity or inspiration is it's like the biggest pain in the ass because you can't control it. That what makes it inspiring is that it's organic, right? Whereas we can all, you know, you can write a book, you can write a song, and we're trying to be in that space, which is awesome also. But when things like that happen and it just kind of you follow the river and it unfolds and has such a beautiful effect, it's just like it's just a magical place to be.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess there's a few things in there, like, I mean, improvisation and and just like self-expression. I mean, that that was I mean, I guess for context, because uh I guess there's probably might be people who are listening to this who weren't there, but essentially it was an open mic, and like I I play piano usually, and I've got this big piano that I got to lug around. I get to get the stand and the stool and the piano and the chords, I have to tear it all down and I have to put it all up. And so really kind of what happened was I got off work and I got a message, you know, from Casey who was saying that, you know, this uh who puts on the open mic, who said that there was an open mic that night, uh, like right after work. And I was like, I don't want to get any of that shit. Like, I don't want to have to tear any of that down. And a few days prior, like somebody had there's some guy who stole an F-250, and the Metropolitan Police Department had cornered him right by right by my work. And like so a police chase started right by my work, and it started with this guy like ramming a unmarked government vehicle into my car uh and and then like stormed off down Murfreesboro Pike and like it, I mean, he wound up like killing someone. It was crazy. Uh that's how like the chase ended. And I remember just feeling like we were to this could the whole conversation started with death. You know, honestly, what I was feeling was like kind of like a remnant of the feeling that I was describing earlier, where I was like, holy shit, this guy just like this poor woman just died, and like my car is like marked and stained with, you know, like the misdeeds of this, of this crazed car thief. And um and I just I hadn't practiced piano in a long time, and I just this had been on my mind for a few days, and so I decided to perform at the open mic and just play two chords on the on the guitar and just talk about this. I was like, that's the that was more like it that was planned, I think, like that I was gonna talk about that. Um, but the rest of it was like, I only know like four chords on guitar really. So I just, you know, I was playing like, you know, E to G to, and then I think occasionally I would play a D chord just so it would I could, you know, bring

Embracing Imperfection and Authenticity

SPEAKER_00 52:13

him back around. But I similar to like I think a lot of times when I'm being creative, just there was something, there was like this feeling that I couldn't shake, and like it felt like the best way for me to move past it was to just like do something with it, you know. And and I I think there have been a lot of times where like I'm not always able to describe how I'm feeling or to translate it like in words and uh like maybe to my own fault. I just don't know that I'm the best at like communicating emotionally what I'm feeling, and um but I can do it like I can do it with music, you know, or through humor. And so for the open mic, I just was singing about this guy crashing into my car and and the and the struggles of needing to sell life insurance to like hit your bonuses and the and the the relationship between those two things, because it's like because I had to sell life insurance and the guy hit hit my car and then he killed someone, and then I told that story to like the next three people I talked to that day, and like all of them bought life insurance, which I desperately needed, like to hit my numbers for work. So it was just a weird thing where like this guy hitting my car like killed someone which benefited me somehow, like monetarily, like at least I think so, uh like by chance. And then I had this performance that also I feel like I benefited from in some way, because uh I guess now we're having this conversation. I guess it was interesting enough that you felt like inviting me on this podcast. And like I just it's just a weird thing. It's like this this horrible thing happened, and then this stuff, like, you know, and then but like I to no plan of my own, more or less, it just affected me in some ways, like positively and negatively. And I I shared about that on stage. I don't I guess what that was just me explaining the context of what happened.

Netanya 54:22

I think I think there might have been an answer in there of what you were asking, but it was on like just where I wanted to go with that was was the experience of flow and creativity and being in like because it's it's a beautiful thing, right? When you can find spaces like that. And whether it's based off real stuff, obviously that was a real situation that happened to you. But I think, you know, to talk about you hit on perfectionism earlier, like so much of what I think we try to do is is project an image of this is what our life is like or this is what we're you know, whatever. And to let things be organic, to have a conversation with your uncle and you're telling the truth, to get on a stage and you didn't have anything planned, and we're gonna we're gonna go with it and like let the imperfection and the truth of the emotions be okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Yeah. I think what that brings up for me, honestly, is that like whenever I think that I'm like touching on something, however I'm describing it to myself or to somebody else, and like regardless of what it is, it always feels like kind of the opposite is also true. Like no matter what I'm doing, it's like like it's only half of the picture. Like I can only ever paint half of a real image. I shared this once that it's like if you're holding a cube, say I'm holding a Rubik's Cube or a box or something or a book, you can only ever see three sides of that thing. You there's no way for you to see more than more than half of a like a three-dimensional object when when you're looking at it. And I think that like we are like that. Whenever you're looking at something, it's like you have to be willing to kind of look at the opposite side of it, you know, whatever my opinion is of something or whatever my my attachment is to that thing, it's it's the front, it's that front-facing side of that cube or the book. It's the part, it's the part I can see. And then but I can be sure that there's another side to that, you know. And I think that with what you're describing, like maybe like the flow state or or the creative process or even like like humor and jokes, I think that like a lot of the times a good joke is like seeing, it's like painting the other side of that that cube for someone. You know, it's like painting the back half of the the side, the dark side of the moon, you know, as they say. And like to to acknowledge that and to like nod that and to be able to essentially say like this is what happened, and then to be able to describe or to acknowledge like the parts of something that aren't like the the thing, the thing that it is, or the thing that like you see it to be, you know.

Netanya 57:15

Well, and so often that's true, right? I mean, always, all the time. I only get the parts of you that you want to share, that you present to the world, whether it's the clothes you wear, the where you live, or you know, whatever. Um but we have so very little information that's actually factual about what's happening on the dark side of the moon, so to speak, for everybody. You know, and we we live and function based on the facade and not on the rest of it. And that's what I love about stuff like this, that you're sitting here and talking to me about things and we're talking about, you know, or that like I said, that conversation with your uncle where you're you're just telling the truth about things that maybe you've never voiced out loud before. I mean, I'll think stuff, but just to be in a space where I'm gonna start telling the truth about things and you know, hope that it lands where it's supposed to and that I'm still gonna be on like okay on the other side of that because the thing I've been presenting or the thing I want people to see isn't the full picture. And that's there's a lie in there, whether it's intentional or not. Um but it's like I I'll give you an example. I had uh it was a couple years ago I went to Mexico with a friend and I had posted this picture uh this like five photos, whatever, one day on Instagram and it looks beautiful. I'm on the beach or you know, all the beach, Mexico, whatever that had a great mocktail. And I spent the whole week in the hotel room because I was so sick. I I got home and it because I I felt so like out of integrity that I had presented this beautiful trip to Mexico for everyone to see. And the truth is I was sicker than a dog and I didn't leave the hotel room and I slept most of the trip. I was just that sick that I just slept. And um but the the space of I felt not good about the lack of transparency about what I'd presented. And so I made a video and I called it what you didn't see. And the point of it was this is all that you saw from the two-second thing that I showed. You didn't see the whole rest of the week where I didn't get out of bed. And so I think for me, I'm always working on like and this doesn't mean everybody gets every aspect of my life by any means. There's a lot of sacredness to things that I keep for myself or for certain people, but I try to be more transparent about this is who I am, or I am messy here, or this is made up, or this is a chaotic process, or I don't know how to feel this or what to do with it, and to voice that more because I think it helps me grow into it and like make it okay.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Yeah. Yeah, I I guess yeah, I mean, the whole time you're talking, just like what I was thinking is like that's really where like the beauty and the honesty and the uh you know, the humor of life is in the things that we that you that you don't see or the things that you don't put forward or like you said, you know, like the irony of uh the beautiful vacation photos that you see on Instagram and um, you know, people and their and their significant others or whatever, or their big pile of money that they have there. And what you don't see is like the arguments and the debt and the and all that. And um so I've always had I mean, I've always had a very like, and this is kind of maybe off topic, but like a s like uh and maybe it's I don't even think it's paranoid. I mean, I think I have enough evidence of it, just that people like whatever people put f face forward on like something like Facebook or Instagram or like whatever their like digital like avatar of their self is, it's like you can be sure that like that's not them. Like if you if you if you really wanted like an honest answer to who they were, you would just instinctually know like that's not like that is not the picture. That's not uh like that's not it. That's not everything, at least. And it's just there's like an emptiness to it, you know, to or a uh or a flatness to it to see just what it is that you're like put forward um and and to only live in like the mask that you try and control for other people to see. And like I I think that like I just like to acknowledge when I can, you know, my own shortcomings and my own, you know, insecurities or feelings, or to just admit that I don't know something, or that I need help, or that I just just don't like don't know what's happening, or or don't know what to feel like. I I think that those are all like uh I think that there it's easy to, and I'm very familiar with this feeling and this this need to uh to know everything or to feel like if I have a problem, then it's my responsibility to know exactly how to solve that problem and how to fix every aspect of it and and to not ask anybody else for help and that like if I can't do it myself, then you know, then I can't do it. And then that's like that's a fault of my own. When realistically, so many times like problems in my life can be solved by one simple suggestion from somebody who has found the solution in the past, and to be vulnerable and to like make the those things known, to make those parts of my life that are that I leave in the dark for everybody else to come to light, you know, for them to be able to see those things, because then they'll be able to give me an honest reflection of of what it is. Because oftentimes like those things that I hide from other people, you know, come with insecurity. They come with some sort of like negative attachment or or maladaptive relationship with. And it and it can be nice to just have to bring them to light and have somebody give you an honest perspective on what it is. Because sometimes I'll be, you know, you I can get caught into a cycle of whether it be like spending money on stuff or or just doing some isolating or playing video games or just generally wasting my time and resources. And sometimes it takes somebody like being honest and being like, being honest about that stuff, and somebody being like, that's fucking stupid. You know, like sometimes that's what I need, but sometimes I have something that like maybe I'm really beating myself up about that's just not that big of a deal. Like I think I'm not worthy of love and attention, or that I think that like I don't deserve to have good things happen to me, you know, and I can be set straight too from from somebody else who just is like, that's just not true, because I'm I'm just as willing to lie to myself and and do something that is wasteful and self-destructive and think that that's good for me, and to wallow in some sort of self-pity and think that that's like virtuous or that that is in some way a solution of some kind. And like just without without bringing, you know, to stay on that same metaphor, I guess, you know, the the dark side of the moon or whatever to light, the the the back half of the cube. Uh I think that's what they that's what Pink Floyd should have called their album, this the back half of the cube. Uh, you know. Uh without like without bringing that to light. It's just I don't have I don't give myself an

Permission to Pursue Your Passion

SPEAKER_00 1:04:30

opportunity to actually like face those things and to and to grow. And yeah, and I think it it just translates into everything, you know, it translates into creativity and it translates into just emotional awareness and in a flow, like like you said, like a flow state of of creativity, but also it's like that that can exist in just like, you know, it doesn't have to be that you're creating this masterpiece of of creative work. It's like you could just live that way. You're on a walk and you can experience that same level of like serenity that comes with just the acceptance and um and understanding and like compassion for yourself that um that con that comes from acknowledging like the things that we leave in the dark.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:16

Yeah. That was well said. Thanks.

Netanya 1:05:21

Last question. If you were to talk to anyone who's listening to this and you were to give them permission to do something after listening to this episode, what would you give them permission to do?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:32

You need to go into a bodega right now. You need to take that money. That money is your money. There's a song. Okay, there's some song I listen to on my playlist and it starts and it says that. You need to go rob a bank right now. You have per my permission. Um, I'm just playing. Man. If there's something that you've been thinking about doing or something that you've always wanted to do, like if you've ever wanted to like learn something, or you know, I always hear people because I play music, I always hear people talking talking about l want to learn an instrument or to go to school or learn something or do whatever. You should do it. That's I spend a lot of time you know thinking about things that I want to do and don't give myself permission to do them. So I'll give you permission to do them and then I'll wait for you to give me permission to do it.

Netanya 1:06:36

Oh, I appreciate you. Thank you for sitting down with me.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

Thanks, Natanya. Thanks for having me on here.

Netanya 1:06:43

Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to NatanyAllison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.