EP47: Hidden Sexuality | Surviving the Secrets and Stepping into True Identity — with Chuck Paetz

What happens when you are told to tell the truth, but never actually taught how?

In this episode, I sit down with Chuck Paetz for a raw, necessary conversation about what it takes to dismantle a lifetime of hiding. Growing up in a rigid, deeply religious household, Chuck learned early on that vulnerability wasn’t safe. To numb the voices, hide his sexuality, and cope with childhood trauma, he turned to active addiction as a young boy.

But survival mechanisms always have an expiration date.

Now, with decades of continuous sobriety, Chuck shares the profound reality of what happens when you finally stop abandoning yourself. From navigating a long-term marriage and losing his wife to cancer, to coming out publicly as a gay man, Chuck opens up about the messy, lifelong process of radical surrender. He shares how he is still actively rewriting his relationship with money, boundaries, and trauma healing later in life.

Inside the Episode:

• Dismantling the Architecture of a Lie: Transitioning from manipulation and "sideways trauma" as survival tools to standing in his own light and demanding the unfiltered truth.
• The Lifelong Work of Surrender: Why recovery is never finished, and how he had to confront his ADHD, rewrite a toxic relationship with money, and practice unconditional forgiveness.
• Holding Space for the Next Generation: What it means to stay active in the rooms of recovery after your own mentors have passed on, ensuring others don't have to learn the hard way.

Chuck willingly paid the price of admission to change his world, and his wisdom is a gift to anyone ready to drop their guard, heal their behavioral blind spots, and step into who they truly are.

Full episode and show notes: netanyaallyson.com/episodes/47

Transcript

On telling the truth

Netanya 0:29

Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Chuck Pates. In this episode, we get into how a rigid childhood caused Chuck to use manipulation and numbness as survival tools, how he spent years in and out of masking his identity until finally choosing to stop abandoning himself. And why decades of sobriety require ongoing healing, including staying active in recovery spaces to guide the next generation. Here we go. Content warning. What I want to talk to you about, and what I want to start with specifically, is I want to talk about telling the truth.

Experiences with trauma and mental health challenges

Netanya 1:58

I did.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

I gave you a whole new Latangent to go off of.

Netanya 2:04

I did. But I it's it's true for anyone. Like, like we all I have lied so many times for different reasons. And when I run into something where I'm I want to be, I think the core of anything is you want to be loved, you want to be accepted, and you want to know that you're enough, like just as you are. But I'm curious about what that experience has been like for you in a journey of telling the truth.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah. I was told to tell the truth, but I wasn't taught how to tell the truth. And I'm the oldest, firstborn of the family, uh with parents that were extremely religious. They met in their university, which is a Christian university. I was born, and then they moved away from their families and moved to a little town in Newark, Ohio, because my father was an engineer. He got his first job. And um I have very little recognition of the beginning. Mostly what I remember is not being able to ask questions and get direction and being corrected for misdirection. And I think what happened is they didn't know how to raise a child. They had their background, so they were going to try to do their best. They were both professionals in a new city with new friends. Uh, and so they didn't really communicate with me. It was it was the 60s. They were born in the late 30s, they grew up with Leave It to Beaver. They were children from a religious perspective, children

The role of recovery programs and honesty

SPEAKER_01 4:08

to be, you know, seen, not heard. Like all of that dynamic didn't allow me to ask questions. And um, and I was a helion. I was an explorer, I was a child, like, and you know, and and I grew up in that period when you you just come home for dinner, maybe for lunch. Like we were just turned loose. And so so I did normal normal stuff growing up, but like when when I did something wrong, something told me that I could not be truthful about it. And I always got found out. And when I got found out, my father, uh, my father had a loud voice. I didn't get I maybe physically spanked just a couple times, but he would raise his voice. And I think he, it was his his rage, his disappointment, his his uh inability. My father was an engineer. Human beings are not engineering projects. We have feelings and emotions. I was a little kid. He was trying to have a new career, he spent a lot of time at work. He was um he was an introvert except with within his Christianity and his church. And um, so like every time I got in trouble, as an early, it I I just I just started, I realized, I think I might have been 12 years old, maybe a little younger, and I'd gotten in trouble for something, and he yelled, and I said, and every time he yelled, I cried. And I'm like, never crying again. So I flipped a switch, and I am going to lie better.

Netanya 6:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

And not being able to ask questions, not being able to get help, not getting good direction, but being just forcefully led down a path, their Christian path, right? The be the good son path, um, having some learning disabilities, like so school wasn't easy. Um and I would get in trouble in school just because I was the clown, right? I was always the fun guy. I was the funny guy. I was the guy who would um no filter. I learned that's the best way to get attention was not having a filter.

Joe 6:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

And so that's somewhat of how I learned to lie. And really, I think I think I learned to lie from adults who had sexually abused me and told me some phrase of doesn't that feel good? And don't tell anyone. And with regard to sexual abuse, it was one of those, I don't think I was physically abused, I think I was physically pleased. And probably it was all males, right? So having that background, I mean, I was groomed to not tell the truth.

Joe 7:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

You know, I had no awareness of my sexuality. Um and so, you know, resources were limited. Uh

Exploration of sexuality and identity

SPEAKER_01 7:56

perception of sexuality was very narrow-minded. Then in Ohio, in a court of head town, you know, there was only heterosexuality. You were expected to do that, but you weren't expected to have sex before marriage. You know, you were it was all of these expectations. Some were taught, some were told, most were implied. Um, and that was in the house. Go to public school, there's a whole nother dynamic. And it was a we were middle class, so we had everything. Um, so I didn't have to fight that. I was an athletic kid, so I had that. Um, but I knew how to lie and hide. You know, and it started at the age of ten. Um and it was um, doesn't this feel good? Don't tell anyone. Right. And so having starting having a sexual relationship with another boy, yeah, um, at the age of 10, which is normal. It's it's normal behavior. Um, except what I can say is it's probably the disease of addiction was within me. Cause, you know, uh I always wanted more of whatever I had. And here I found this new playmate. And so I wanted it a lot. And um I mean, it's sketchy. It's the memories of it, you know, the whole process. I'm I'm 63 now, that happened. I was 10, right? It's a long time ago. What I remember is it was a very, uh, it was a very, it was extremely intense. It was filled with voyeurism, exhibitionism. Um, we attempted at times to figure out how to maybe bring another person in, another child that didn't go well. I mean, it, you know, it was like uh and he was an addict too, right? So two addicts together at 10 years old having sex is it's just insanity. And um, and so like traveling to grow up, right, living in that kind of environment, um, sneaking out of my house, voyeuring him until I figured it was time I could tap on a window because he lived in a basement. And and his parents were clueless. They had six kids. Um, and so they were clueless as to what happened in the basement. But it and and it was nothing was ever really spoken. It was it was just physical activity. Um and there was there was a fair amount of control by his part on how he would please me, and tease and please, and delay, and just this, um, but it was all about me. You know, and so um, so that's all interesting when you haven't found females, right? But when you hit junior high, things change. And then it was, then there were expectations, right? And so, and and up to that point, no, I could not, I spoke with no one about this. And so what happens when when you lie and you hide and you deceive like that, it comes out sideways. So I I got destructive. I started vandalizing, I started doing things

The importance of vulnerability and connection

SPEAKER_01 11:50

that like I had this thing going on inside and I couldn't talk about it. And so it came out sideways. And so therein happened, therein a lot of the you know, problems at home happened where I would do shit and I would get caught. And their response was, we need to take you to the pastor.

Joe 12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Which I didn't believe. So therefore, you know, I I couldn't repent and I didn't feel safe. I had no s I had no safety. All I had was was self. And that's that's an uncomfortable way to live. However, when you learn, if you learn how to survive, you learn how to survive. And so um, you know, I tried sports to offset some of the energy, and really what happened is is alcohol at the age of 12. Um, and so I learned I learned how to drink to puker pass out. It was it was to numb the voices in the head. Um and it allowed me not to feel. And, you know, and and that's that was a that started at 12, and uh, you know, I got I finally got caught drinking. I think I was 16. I was a I think I was a I was a junior. Um, and and the conversation, like this, this sums up a lot of what happened in my life. Um, I was out with friends, we lived in a house that was a two-story bi-level house. My bedroom was in the basement, away from everything, and you had a 50-50 shot of you were going up or down because they would just open the door and push me in. And I ended up in the downstairs half bath, heaving my guts. I didn't know my father was watching TV in the dim. And so he picked me up, he cleaned me up, took me into my bedroom, put me to bed, and the next morning we had a conversation, and he said, Your mother and I have spoken, and we're okay if you drink, but we have three rules. Uh you can't become an alcoholic. I'm like, Well, that one's already done. You can't drink and drive. I'm like, I've already done that. You can't get anyone pregnant. Well, I wasn't sleeping with females, so I figured one out of three was a pretty good odd. And so they gave me then permission to publicly drink. Um, meanwhile, I've had several female girlfriends did not know how to have sex with those female girlfriends. Right? It was not, I mean, that wasn't, it was more of a title. Go, you know, I was going with someone, right? Tried, didn't, you know, tried some stuff, didn't really know. Um, but I'm still having sex with dude, probably randomly, um, but still very subversively. And um then I could use with way more frequency. And so that whole process just built up this thing of one, I want to leave here. Two, I had no clue of my sexuality. Like, I had a good friend of mine, Danny, and he had a girlfriend, and she had a girlfriend, and he was a little less middle class, and they were from the other side of the river, and um, our backgrounds were all different. Mine was definitely a little more advanced, and this girl who I dated, we never had sex. Um uh I feigned it one time that we were all going to a motel and put a great story out. I'm a good storyteller, so most of my stories were believable. But the the most key thing for that and the understanding of females was so she had called me. This is back when you had phones and you had party lines, and if you called me and you didn't hang up, the line was still open, and she had called me, and it must have been on a Friday night or something, and she said she'd taken a bunch of pills. She sounded fucked up and she sounded uh incoherent, and I spent the entire night before I passed out, not knowing if she was alive or dead. Finally went to sleep, got up the next morning, line was open, called her at some point, and her response was, I just wanted to see how much you loved me. Now, those fucking mind games in the eighth grade, they'll color your perceptions. It's like, you know, it's like, okay, so you want, I don't know you that well. I'm attracted, but not physic, haven't been physical, and then you throw a mind game, and it was like, and so it got a little weird. There was a period at that point in life where I had contemplated suicide because I would go run, like because running is a great metaphor for not facing your problem, but then also physically really good. And I contemplated at one point while I was running, stepping out in front of traffic. And I don't know what happened, uh what intervention took place, but something happened that it was like that's not gonna be the solution. And I don't know that much changed after that, um, other than high school, right? Same stuff, same. I partied and was an athlete and hung out with so many different groups, but still nobody knew.

Joe 17:55

Right?

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Nobody knew, um, still hadn't had sex with a female, was still lying and hiding in the shadows. And I think, I think probably at that point I was getting a little more curious. And so porn was print.

unknown 18:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Uh and you could get porn, you know, at a gas station or at a convenience store, and the only gay porn was playgirl.

Joe 18:22

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Um, let me tell you, it's hard for a straight-looking guy to go in and convince yourself some sort of story why you're buying Playgirl. And I would fight with myself. I mean, because I could look at male form looking at straight porn. That's generally what I looked at. It was, you know, you can focus on one or both. I saw both, was physically attracted to both, but just not having that ability to communicate creates a, you know, it it creates uh like when you have questions but can't get any answers. And then the only male you're having sex with, um, and I had I had developed feelings, really, really young, and I had shared those feelings. I think we were in his bedroom sleeping, and I shared it. And uh, and then he went down on me and he fucking bit me. Which was a clear sign. May not have been that bright, but that was pretty clear. And because I was addicted to it, it didn't stop. It just started that process of shutting down, right? And so, like part of lion hiding is is also you deny the feelings that you have, and you end up not having a whole you you have I had a very small range of feelings, couldn't identify

Healing from past trauma and embracing authenticity

SPEAKER_01 19:56

most of them. Um because I didn't come from a feeling uh-based family. We didn't talk about feelings. We didn't I don't know how much in my family we said we loved each other because they were analytical. And so so that was the process of how I learned how to lie and hide.

Netanya 20:19

So there's obviously a lot underneath that. What is jump to how did you get to be you in this current iteration? Where there's I'm sure there's a lot that happened in adulthood where that shifted and changed, and you, you know, got married.

Joe 20:32

Yeah.

Netanya 20:33

Um, but where did you break some of that and learn that you could start telling the truth?

SPEAKER_01 20:40

So fast forward, addiction is is highly rampant. I had gotten married, and but I had become the person who I knew I was not. And somehow, in some iteration of what was going on, somehow treatment got mentioned. And and I think just all the line, I was married, but I was cheating on my wife with another female. I may have been having male sex too. It's hard. Just, you know, it's in in the end of active addiction, I don't remember. Yeah, no, I was having sex with dudes, but I got the opportunity to go to treatment. And treatment was the first place where um I got faced with all the things I didn't believe. I was in a Christian Seventh-day Adventist hospital. I saw the 12 steps, which I knew about, but really saw the word God multiple times, and I had none. And I really wondered what the fuck I just got myself into. And I was there, and an H I meeting is kind of What changed the whole thing. I think we may have been out to a couple AA meetings, but the HI meeting, I heard a language spoken to me in a way that I'd never heard things ever spoken. Like I was able to identify. And back then it was simply more about you don't have to use no matter what. If you used, you're going to die. For me, it was if I use, I will die. So I had a little conversion experience because the math was pretty simple. Use, die, recover, live, change your whole life, get rid of people, places, and things, adopt a new way of life. That seemed simpler than living the way I was living. So I severed all tie. I only had one relationship. It was just my dope dealer, and he he and I were friends, but it was like I never spoke to him ever again. I was married to my wife at the time, and she was supportive, and I dove headfirst into Narcotics Anonymous and started getting all these friendships, right? And started learning the process of telling the truth. And really, the first thing happened, I had two sponsors that didn't really work. I asked this guy to sponsor me. He was obviously gay, and then I found out he was also HIV positive. And I didn't know if I was HIV positive. But they said find someone who has something you want. And what I wanted was to find out who I was. Now I married, my wife knew, like, she knew I was bisexual when we married. So it wasn't a surprise. So she wasn't really offended, I think, by having that sponsor. But I learned he was one of the other than my dope dealer, I think I was honest with my dope dealer. I think at that point, and he didn't really care, so it wasn't that big of an issue. But um not being under the influence, my first sponsor was the one who allowed and helped me figure out how to be able to tell the truth. I had more questions than answers. Um, but I was able to ask things and talk about things that I had no other means of ever doing. And and so that was like really a pivotal point in early recovery. Unfortunately, he uh he committed suicide. And because of the way I have relationships, he told me he was committing suicide. It was a planned suicide, and I, with one, two other people were at the suicide party the night before he committed suicide. And he was committing suicide because he didn't want HIV, he didn't want AIDS. And it was 1987, and HIV and AIDS were insanely, there was no cure, there was no relief, and he didn't want to die that way. And it was like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. He ended up, he was drunk the whole time. So he died from the disease of addiction, not from HIV.

Joe 25:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

And that was a real pivotal point in me making the decision, well, what am I gonna do?

Joe 25:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

Am I gonna recover regardless of, and I probably had an HIV test and probably found out I didn't have HIV. I was have always been extremely cautious, careful. Usually I find and had I would find people who would please me and I didn't have to do anything. You know, I I just I'd love to receive as the way and it and men are pigs, and you got givers and takers. I found all the givers, and I could be a taker. And so my next sponsor was really the first person who I did four step with and did fifth step with, and shared intimately, uh rigorously honest my story with him. And you know, I mean, the thing is, is if you understand recovery, you're gonna align with people who more than likely will understand because he had his own stuff. And so I wasn't ashamed and I wasn't guilted. And that was a process of me then, you know, after doing amen, finding defects and doing amends, finding that I'm okay. I still didn't have a lot of answers because, you know, I knew I wasn't using alcohol and drugs, but sex was still the root cause of the disease. And I I attempted to do a little bit of therapy. I talked about it in rehab, and they literally said, we don't deal with that here. When you get out, go find a counselor. And so once again, asking questions, I got denied answers. I got denied the the understanding. It was like, it's okay, but just we don't talk about that here. You know? But that was the 80s, that's how it was. It was it was just different. And so there's been so many I think what happens, I think if you are able to stay in recovery without use four decades at a time, you're always going to come upon a new level of surrender. Some of that surrender is around honesty, some around acceptance, some around forgiveness, and some around finding peace.

Joe 28:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

And that's kind of how my story has gone. The latest version, the latest version of my story is that I was I was married to Holly. We were married in 1999, and 2001, she was diagnosed with lung cancer in November, and she died the 21st of January. Um it was horrific. It was um painful. Uh, I'm really good in a crisis. I was able to care for her and give her care uh while she was dying. And uh and it was COVID. So it was a perfect storm of isolation, uh, of people not having acceptance. Many, many, many, many people did not believe she was going to die. And there were quite a few people who abandoned her in this process and showed up at the end and didn't want to recognize many of them blamed me for her death. I don't know how I can get blamed for someone's fucking terminal cancer, but addicts do weird things, and I got blamed.

Reflections on forgiveness and self-love

SPEAKER_01 30:06

And um, let me say, prior to that, Holly and I's probably relationship for the last five to seven years prior to her getting cancer. Um, it was pretty lonely for both of us, and we both did our own thing. Um she worked obsessively late at night till early in the morning, and I worked during the day, and we passed each other. Sometimes she was coming down, going to bed, and I was going up, going to work. Um, and it was it was lonely, and it there wasn't a lot of communication, a lot of you know things had happened with her with work. She had a company that got shut down, she started a new job, it got bought out, she was working, she started working for herself. I had my real estate company, I was doing that. And, you know, we were kind of both doing our own thing. And Holly, Holly, Holly liked to live on the thought that I don't have to do much to take care of myself. And unfortunately, um that manifested itself in the cancer for one. Because she didn't eat real well, she didn't sleep real well, she loved coffee, cigarettes, e-cigarettes were the last thing. And, you know, um, and what held us together was is we were the we were uh Ken and Barbie of Narcotics Anonymous. We were the model couple. We were, I mean, and it was, and and that was our agreement. Our agreement was no one, no one got to leave. It was death to us part, you know. I had infidelity. Um, she said, that's not my stuff, that's your stuff. I did some trauma work, which really was me just doing work regarding uh I had gotten caught and I needed to do penance, had a little bit of an awakening, still not a lot. At times in our marriage, I thought about, hey, what would you think about bringing another dude in and then chickened out? Because it just seemed an impossibility to be that honest, that vulnerable, and risk what so for me it would be if I'm honest, what is the cost?

unknown 32:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Because there was always a cost to being honest, especially in relationship. Now I would always be honest on the front end, but as relationships age, and then there's less communication and the same stuff, because I was uh I was uh we got married, I was in SA. I did, I did SA, I did SLAA, I did 12-step um programs to try to deal with my infidelity. And some of it worked and some of it didn't, right? When I had to relapse, it was just it was I had created such a house of cards that I needed to relapse to eliminate all of my responsibilities with the S program, which I didn't believe in the tenets of the program. I could adhere to them, but I didn't believe them. And to, you know, that just was it was not to thine own self be true. And so we stayed married. We just we did our best. We I I wanted to do a vow renewal for our 20th anniversary and put together this amazing party. Um it was very intimate, it was very emotional. Back in conversation at some point, Holly said something to my sponsor. I just don't want him to blow, I just don't want him to burn the house down. Because she knew I was, and I was getting massages and I was getting hand jobs, and and it was that was probably the extent of the activity I would allow myself to, other than looking at porn and not having sex, you know. Um, she just didn't want me to burn our house down. You know, and so we had the valve renewal, and you know, what I understand now is like she was pretty detached. Um, she was somewhat detached because of medication she was on. She was a heavy heroin addict who got diagnosed with, you know, not having any serotose and uptake inhibitors, so she was medicated from the first time she got in recovery and stayed medicated on old medications, which just made her flat. She couldn't have a lot of feelings. Some of it now, I think, what happened is the cancer had already started in her. And that's kind of why she was flat because she had cancer. She'd been living with it for a couple of years, and then it just finally manifested. And, you know, the cancer, the cancer happened, she died, it was painful. It was me trying to figure out what I'm going to do. It was suggested that I do the typical 12-tick thing is find people who have experienced doing what you're doing. And I did that. I had guys in AA who had lost their spouse, had good, good talk with them, and then I had uh I had been introduced to a person in the rooms who had a girlfriend who had lost their spouse and he had lost her spouse. And it's the only other female I have uh been sexually attracted to. She happened to be single and we happened to talk. And uh and I needed relief. I mean, it was the the the amount of of uh grief that I experienced was so intense. I needed I needed a hundred and eighty degrees different. And so I obsessed on a narcissist and um surrendered myself to somebody else. I became something that I wasn't, and um I lived in pure pleasure and excitement. And thankfully, that only lasted about a year and a half. And and the truth, I was able to see the truth. And the truth was had I not had uh that relationship with this person, I would not have sought to do trauma treatment. And the trauma treatment I did at the time had to do with Holly had never said goodbye or acknowledged she was dying. And I always knew she was. And I was always the first person who always knew everything that happened with her physically and her status because I fixed managed control well, and I had a personal physician, friend of mine, who was a high school friend, and he told me the truth. When the oncologist lied about everything, he told me the truth. Nobody else liked to know what the truth. There were a few people. There were a few people in my path who understood exactly what was going on. And that was the first piece of trauma treatment I needed to do. And that was the first time I've ever done treatment and therapy that I wasn't caught or trying to cover up. Uh I knew I needed to get help. And so I did that piece regarding Holly. That was the major piece. You did two pieces, and this was this is essentially nine months worth of treatment in 12 steps in six days. And uh the second piece I did was with Terry, and it was to thank her for getting me to the point where I could ask for my own help. Now it's really fucked up when you have to thank the person who tormented your life. But she said you need to find her higher piece, not her disease piece, her higher piece, and let that go and be grateful that you were able to have the opportunity to find who you are now. And it was as a result of doing that that I um I decided to come out. I think it was 26 years. Um I did it, I did it at my celebration, and it was, you know, and it was fun and it was new, and it was, and really, so so the deal was this. So I I knew I had a I had a pattern. Male, female, male, female, male, female. I always jumped. Um it was always about females and transactions, not love and feelings. Because I wasn't capable of having love and feelings with a man. Because I decided to have that paradigm shift to see how absolutely codependent I was and got involved with someone, that had to happen to give me the ability to surrender. And what I said was I want to experience the feeling of a man, the love, the compassion.

Living authentically and the fullness of the truth

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Um and I've found that. Now, it's not the fairy tale that everybody says it is. Because I found a man who is completely opposite of I. The great thing is we could probably share clothes. We both like physical activity, and we don't have to fight about the male-female differences, right? And and something that is something that never could happen with a female that I expressed, um, expressed with my partner is if I say to you, wow, she got a nice set of tits, or that's a really attractive woman. What I need you to understand is I'm just acknowledging somebody's beauty. I'm not saying that I want to sleep with them. And the best response you could give me is yes, that's a nice attractive person, or what is going on in you that you have sensed that? Because the problem that's always happened with females is it was, what is wrong with me? My partner took it upon that they weren't providing me. It didn't have anything to do with them, it had to do with me. And I was it was never safe enough to be able to communicate to somebody, right? Wow, that's an attractive male. Because the thing for me is, is I don't know, I was I was just born. Uh I was groomed, I'm gonna say it's groomed, to be able to be physically attractive to both sexes. Hence my celebration. Holes and poles and poles and holes. It doesn't matter.

Netanya 42:15

Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Um, I still see females as attractive, but because I have spent most of my life in this place of being able to pick, I'm picking um being free with being a gay man with almost four decades in recovery, 60 almost four years old, and not afraid to share um in public with people about my boyfriend, talk openly about being gay, not hiding, and not being afraid of being who I am. And um I'm a little bit jealous of people who are growing up today because sexual freedom is so much more acceptan, right? There's there's no stigmatism to have to deal with. There's still prejudice, there's still bigots, there's still hate, right? But it is so much less um, it it doesn't exist today at the level at which it was brought up to me. So that brings up why I had to spend most of my life lying and hiding about what I believed.

Netanya 43:38

And how do you feel today in terms of your ability, capacity to tell the truth fully in all of those areas?

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Um, it is so there's always I could say it's not, but see, that would be a lie.

Joe 43:54

It would be.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Because there is always um, there's always a twinge There's always a little bit of ego that gets in. I try to live basically: is it kind? Is it necessary? Um, and is it truthful? And so sometimes I don't say anything because sometimes that's the best truth.

Joe 44:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

Is to keep my mouth shut. I don't have all the answers. I'm still working through. You know, I will say I made a decision a couple weeks ago that in February I'll do another treatment week to deal with whatever sexual abuse I grew up with. And then also doing a piece on um the relationships I lost as a result of the death.

Joe 44:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Because I'm pretty easy at letting things go. But I'm also really good at minimizing and deflecting. And um because that's about that's that's what people who know how to manipulate do. Because I can make it not be what it really is in order to palotize, to be, to palate, to be able to to accept what's going on.

On navigating feelings today

Netanya 45:19

How are you today with feelings, both in a relationship and just in general?

SPEAKER_01 45:24

Um we have more words to speak feelings with. Right? Um, it is confusing at times. It is, you know, um, when when people don't ask you how you're feeling or they accept fine.

unknown 45:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Um, you know, I do my best to practice being vulnerable and intimate. Um even with my relationship. And he's he's working on his part. Um, it's not it's not where I'd like it to be. And it's still early. So, you know, as a friend of mine, Chuck said today, he's like, you have no ability to understand what it's like to be a black gay man in the South.

Joe 46:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

And while I want, um while people allow me to find my pace, my my my stuff, I'll let him allow to find him. And hopefully we I mean, because we, I mean, like I do know I love him and I know he loves me, right? Um and because he's he's an introvert and I'm not, you know, which is how all of my relationships are except for the narcissist. Like I got someone, I got a female version of me who's just a little more fucked up. And had way more trauma that I could even understand. Right? Because I think that's kind of what happens with it at times, is depending on the level of trauma that you've had to deal with in life. And if you don't deal with your trauma, the your coping skills get really, really um unhealthy. So um I have intimate conversations with everybody, some people who don't even want to have them. However, there's the trauma bond that you kind of connect, right? But I don't really look at it as a trauma bond. I look at the universe puts me in place with people who, in a very short period of time, there can be a very intimate connection and then it separates. And both parties benefit from it. Which is better than how you doing? Fine, how you doing? Yeah. That I'd still do it because that's commonplace. But I mean, I took I took a lot of time and did a lot of traveling and I've and and was gone for 26 days, and and I met all the people I was supposed to meet, and bonded with all of the people I needed to meet. A lot of it was me just being able to be vulnerable and intimate with where I was, and people accepting and being able to hold me in my space because they had the capacity to be able to hold space. I never understood that. You know?

Netanya 48:37

So And one of the threads that's running underneath this also, with the not being able to tell the truth and that it's cost you something to do so is self-abandonment. So, what has that been like in recent years to come back to the self and fully own things and that process of the years that you you abandoned yourself for protection? Right. Right. And then making an active choice to set that guard down and come back to who you really are.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Well, uh I think I I mean there's different layers of that, but I think one of the biggest things that happen is um a year ago I decided to hire a business coach. And this business coach, she was doing a Zoom meeting on ADHD in real estate. And in my family, we don't have ADHD, we are just multitaskers. We deny and deny and deny. And um, and something so I pay attention when the universe presents with me a new opportunity, and she became a new opportunity for me. Her mother had 28 years in recovery. She also lived in Nashville, had kids to a doctor, and then became a lesbian. So, like to me, the diviner invention is I found a really good coach who's not in recovery, who's in the community, who's had family, who ADHD, who, when I speak, she can follow the train of thought, and has helped me redirect my ability um to follow a straighter path, a path of less pivot, because I pivot all the time, always being financially irresponsible, always, from a child uh an eight-year-old boy, uh told me I so like here's here's what's happened. I have someone who tells me the straight up truth, is not afraid to tell me the truth. While she somewhat apologizes because she thinks he's being a little too harsh, I can handle the fucking truth. And I prefer you just don't dress it up and put a bow on it. Just tell me the fucking truth. I now understand to hear from that perspective. And when I can hear from that perspective, what I've been allowed to do is start making healthier decisions. Like she told me a truth. People who financially just survive always make shitty financial decisions. I've always made shitty financial decisions. My decision with money has been this there's always enough. I believe there's always enough, and I always find enough. That's a very unhealthy relationship with money. And at 63, going on 64, I now realize I have to have a different relationship with money, as I have a different relationship with relationships, as I have a different relationship with work, as I have a different relationship with friendships, as I have a different relationship with wanting to add to my life more people to be in community with. That it doesn't really have to be that confusing. Yeah, I just forgive you. And 99% of the people I can do that with, I'm having some trouble with. I just I try not to cause a ton of damage. Now I also learned I can forgive you and let you out of my life. In fact, I had some tarot cards read the last reading. Uh, not only that I can I can unconditionally love you and I can forgive you, and and I can erase you because you don't serve me anymore. That's a little more difficult to do because it's a concept that I'm not familiar with, right? Because we all kind of like to hunt, we still, I still want to be right, or I want to be heard.

Netanya 55:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

Right?

Netanya 55:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

And I'm not always going to be heard. And so the forgiveness is I'm not going to be heard, and it's not my path. And then because I'm a Taoist, a stoic, a Buddhist, right, a realist, um a person in long-term recovery, I can have all this knowledge and this information that I get and I read all the time. And and many of the themes all happen at once. And last month there was a whole lot about forgiveness and letting go. And I can read it, um, and I just always can't necessarily process it. But I know it will happen because it's

Nothing happens by mistake

SPEAKER_01 56:32

nothing has happened in my life by mistake. Sitting in your apartment and having this conversation, meeting you, it took all of those things prior to today to create this type of relationship. And that's what I look for, right? Which means I'm looking outside of self and I'm looking for others. I'm looking to be of service and to also receive. Because that's the greatest gift we get is when we both get something out of it. And we both may get the diff we will get something different many times, but sometimes we actually get depth that neither one of us had.

unknown 57:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Which is about being vulnerable.

Netanya 57:18

Yeah. I've had to work on that specifically, the the whatever it is, the coming together of two people. And I feel things so deeply, and they mean so much to me, and I can get a lot out of a very small experience. And to surrender the fact that to not be attached to what the other person did or didn't get or how they carry it with them afterwards. That took me a minute because I wanted them to get what I got out of it.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

Well, and that's and that that is um so something. So uh because I'm an old man and I'm an old timer, I have a little bit of something, and it's just a little bit of wisdom. I've experienced more than you in recovery for a longer consistency.

Joe 58:06

Sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

However, you have grasped a wisdom faster than I could have ever imagined to get. Because I didn't have the resources you have. And so it works both ways. And it's not the competition, it's the I can acknowledge to you the wisdom you carry is very, very valuable. Um, and you freely share it. And that's a gift, and that's great. You know, that is that that is needed as much today as me sharing what almost four decades is like. So so there's a there's a part of my story where my predecessors vacated the fellowship.

Joe 59:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 59:15

And I was left without predecessors. Um so I had to find the experience, strength, and hope from those with less time. Um it would have been, I say it would have been nice had I had the answers ahead of time. However, that's not my story. My story, however, is I share what I share as an opportunity. Not that maybe you're going to do it different, but maybe you hear an opportunity to think about doing it different and not as long. Some of us know how to do things the hard way. And the hard way is not necessarily the easier way. Surrender is really the easier way. And if I if I share, uh, you might not ought to want to do that. Um, and I know people who do listen, right?

unknown 1:00:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

And I will continue to share. I will never not share the process of my recovery in the rooms of recovery, because my story is mine. There will be those, those who have a little recovery. Many times what happens is it's people who've been around a long time who stopped doing things and need to know that you can pick it back up. That you don't have to use to get the lesson. You can get the lesson from somebody who's already got it.

Joe 1:01:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

And it's um, and that's the great reciprocal part of recovery is it's like we all are on the same path. We have different experiences, and we're human beings trying to live in a space and figure it out, and maybe make it a little better for someone else, and maybe make it a little better for ourselves, and create more love and kindness and compassion um than was given to us to make it a little safer someone to try and practice doing things that none of us were taught. And um and I think that is the only way I know how to change the world. And and it was the price of a mission. I accept the price of a mission. And that just means I don't get to stop. And till I can't speak, you'll hear me talk.

Netanya 1:02:14

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:15

And thank you. This is uh this is uh um this is the first podcast I've done.

Joe 1:02:21

Really? I'm honored.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:23

Yeah. Yeah, I'm honored too. And um, and and I'm I'm grateful that you have this platform because while I don't understand what people get out of it, I have seen the benefit of what people get out of it. And there is not one path. There was only one path for a very long time.

Joe 1:02:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

And then there were two, and now there are many. And so I honor you for you um putting that path available to those um free of charge.

Joe 1:03:02

Thank you. I appreciate this. Me too. It's good.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:08

Thank you.

Joe 1:03:08

Yeah.

Netanya 1:03:11

Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to nataniallison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.