EP48: The Practice of Repair | Surprising Grace in Saying "I Was Wrong" — with Dan Thatcher

We’ve all lived in that exhausting space of trying to look like we have it all together—hiding our mistakes, dodging our shortcomings, and hoping no one notices. But what changes when we stop pretending we have it all together?

In this episode, I sit down with Dan Thatcher for a remarkably candid conversation about his five-year journey of recovery. We dive deep into what it was like for him to dismantle a rigid Mormon upbringing in Utah, navigate a family history of alcoholism, and reclaim his creativity as a musician in sobriety. Dan shares how he finally traded self-flagellation for a grounded practice of grace—and why learning to say "I was wrong" is actually the ultimate superpower.

What We Discuss in This Episode:

• Redefining Your "Higher Power": How Dan walked away from rigid religious ideas to build his recovery around two simple things that keep him steady: a daily commitment to kindness and the literal gravity keeping his feet on the ground.
• The Power of Owning Your Mess-Ups: A funny, honest look at stubborn overconfidence—why admitting when we're wrong is a total superpower and how laughing at ourselves builds deeper trust.
• Belonging Among the "Misfits": How to find real community without forcing it, trading high-pressure expectations for the messy, beautiful reality of showing up exactly as we are.

If you've ever struggled with the pressure of perfection, wrestled with what integrity really means, or simply wanted to learn how to laugh at your own mistakes, this episode is a breath of fresh air.

Full episode and show notes: netanyaallyson.com/episodes/48

Transcript

Dan's journey with faith and sobriety

Netanya 0:03

I'm traveling that right for truth. This podcast is about those moments. It's about the starting points that change up. The things I wish someone had told me that I only understand and look at. Come on in. You belong here. And we're going to talk about all of it. I'm your host Natanya, and that's what I didn't know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Dan Thatcher. In this episode, we get into moving away from rigid doctrine to build an everyday foundation on kindness, how laughing at our overconfidence and owning our mistakes builds deeper trust, and embracing authentic, unforced community where we show up exactly as we are. Let's dive in. Cool. Well, I would love to get started with the topic of kindness. Yes. I want to know what does that mean to you? What has your journey been like with that word?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

It started with first of all coming into AA and being told that I needed to find a power greater than myself to do this work. Well, it would back up and say, I'm not going over this very carefully in with a lot of uh see my my brain, it's with a lot of uh grace, but I grew up in Utah and both sides of my family, this is a long way to use kinds. Both sides of my family came to Utah as Mormon pioneers. And about half of the family stayed there in the in the religion, and then others, the other half didn't. So I I grew up um kind of stuck in between these two worlds. And when I got to high school, I had enough friends that were Mormon that I got into it and went on a Mormon mission and became very devout. And after my mission, I was married, married at the Mormon temple. Um again, very devout. Uh it became clear though after a while that it was not. I struggled to actually believe that this was this God was actually a kind God, um, according to the the writings of the holy texts that we would read. I struggled with that. And I eventually left the faith. And I didn't start drinking till I left the church and moved to Colorado. I was about 27 and discovered how wonderful alcohol could be for dealing with all kinds of stressors and learning how to relax, et cetera. Um, that worked until it didn't, and I needed to find a higher power. So when I came into the rooms, no, no, this is where we're coming full circle, um, I decided my higher power was going to be the farthest thing from this male man god with a white beard. So I and I love the liberation of just coming up with my own idea and concept of a higher power. So I immediately went to um a female, probably lesbian, definitely a communist, and um that like I so I eventually settled on Harriet Tubman. Like, okay, her Tubman fits that bill for me. And I'm just gonna imagine myself um you know looking to her for guidance and as a higher power. And and then so that worked for like the first few months of sobriety, and and she was awesome. Um then I heard this quote from George Saunders, the author. He was being interviewed on um by Ezra Klein on the New York Times, and and the quote was that the the only non-delusional response to the human condition is kindness, and that really resonated with me for for whatever reason. And probably part of this is because I felt like the religion of my youth was not as kind as I felt it should have been. Um so that I I started thinking on that and chewing on that and what it might mean. And it and I think like a lot of people will say love is their

Kindness as a response to the human condition

SPEAKER_00 5:03

higher power, which is great. I think kindness is is just one face of love. But for me, it actualizes the this the notion of love. When I think about my own life, when I'm struggling, when I really need a higher power to lean into, I can say, how do I need to be kind to the person in front of me or kind to myself or kind to the people around me, um, to the planet Earth, whatever. It's a way for me to to actualize that that concept. And then I had to couple it too with the power of gravity, because gravity is also this kind of mysterious force at play in the universe that no one, even physicists, astrophysicists don't fully grasp how it how it works, and it's mystical for me. But it's also the power that um keeps keeps a drink down. I have to defy gravity to to drink. And it it's the it's the kind of idea that keeps me grounded in life and keeps my head in the game. Um whereas to be kind is can kind of seem lofty and and idealistic. But if I if I combine these two, this is my my um my dual theas of of of kindness and gravity combined. And that's in my practice of sobriety and in the program. That's I I can lean in those two concepts. I mean that that's the kind of the genesis of how I line it on on gravity. It's a long road, but I love it.

Netanya 6:51

Um how do you how do you reconcile with moments or times or situations in your life when you don't feel kind and that's valid, right? Or you are hurt or angry, you know?

Joe 7:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

I uh I I don't want to sound too literary, but what uh one of my my all-time favorite book is The Brothers Karamazov of Dostoevsky. And there is a scene. Um well one of the the primary characters in in the Brothers Karamazov is this this mystic monk, Father Zosima. Um and he's constantly spewing out wisdom and notions of morality throughout the novel. There's a scene where a woman of high status comes to see him, and she's wants to thank him because she believes that he healed her daughter. And she was going, having this conversation with him that you know I I would give myself to the church and to God and to serve and love humanity, all humanity. And then she goes into this kind of honest dialogue with him that she doesn't think she could do it for very long because she would find it upset if she were to wash someone's feet and they were ungrateful for it, or if she just served someone if they didn't recognize her work and her um and her philanthropy toward them, that that would really um that would that's that's gonna that's what's gonna keep her from continuing to to serve humanity and be kind. And she poses the question to Father Zosim, what what is to be done? What what is that wrong? And he and he said, No, you're you're fine. The fact that you're thinking about it that way, that you're actually struggling with it is is the path forward. And I think that like we're never gonna be fully kind or fully um fully responding to every every tricky and thorny and difficult situation in life with kindness for ourselves or for others. But if we're if we're being pulled that way, like through gravity towards that that direction, I can live with that. And I think it's part this is part of where the covery process is so important with the with the particularly with the 11th step, uh, the 10th, 11th step in reviewing our day and what we could have done to improve on it. That's that's part where where that advice from Father Zosuna comes to play for me, where we're on the right trajectory at least. Yeah, because I I just I can't beat myself up. And I I damn well know when I'm not kind. It doesn't, it's not it's not you know like something I have to think about hours later, but sometimes that's the case, but often like I do something like, well, that was stupid and mean,

The role of honesty and repair in relationships

SPEAKER_00 9:46

and then have to go and apologize.

Netanya 9:51

Do you feel like you do that pretty readily?

SPEAKER_00 9:55

I try to, yeah. Yeah, and and yeah, it's like the more you do it, the the easier it becomes in the in the more right-sized I become. Like becoming realizing that man, I make a lot of mistakes because I'm um, you know, I'm just a bozo on the bus like everyone else, and I'm I you know I'm just human. And before recovery, that's not what I thought. I thought I'm doomed, I'm just a terrible person. A lot of like self-doubt and uh self-flagellation and um despair.

Netanya 10:35

How did you how did you get from a space of, if that was your pretty regular reality, self-doubt and self-flagellation, which is very common, right? I have also lived there. How did you what was the journey like to transition from being in that state all the time to being in a place of essentially grace and surrender and being able to repair better? How did you get from one to the other?

SPEAKER_00 11:05

It's a long question.

Netanya 11:06

I realized that was a large question, also.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Yeah, I I will say one advantage I had coming into recovery was that I in my younger years, um, I'd done a lot of work with the child psychologist. And through college, my dad's a psychiatrist, so we're kind of you know, it's just kind of normal to go to see a therapist or a psychiatrist. And in college, I worked a lot with the psychologist on depression and some anxiety. When I started drinking long after that, it I realized that oh, I could cure my depression and anxiety with alcohol and liquor. Um but I I did have this kind of baseline of uh tools that were helpful in in terms of like cognitive um forgetting the term for the um psychoanalytic model. Um anyway. So when I got into recovery, a lot of the work that that I did as a young adult seemed to kind of jibe well with that. And it it this it's a process of of constantly questioning our assumptions about ourselves and writing them down and challenging them. Um cognitive behavioral therapy, that's what I was thinking of, sorry. Is that it's the kind of kind of work I found to be very similar. And so that when I say it took a lot of work, it was working through each individual step of the of the 12 steps and being very serious about what the fourth step means, being very serious about looking at uh things in my life that the way I act, my defaults, what they mean, and um and and somehow this magical work of you know always trying to um ask my higher power to to help me with them. And so that means for me, my with my higher power to to be kind toward myself. And it's this this work of like doing this four-step work and the fifth step, and then going through the eight-step and identifying who we need to make amends to, and actually doing the amends, and then later on the steps doing the the the daily amends and the daily um inventory. It's that constant day after day habit. It's a habit, it's a habit. And that what after after I think really for years, I mean five years in a sobriety, and I I think it's just kind of slowly dawning on me that this is a way to live that that creates some serenity from day to day. Or at least I know how to access the serenity, even if I'm not feeling it. I know, I know a pathway to the serenity.

Netanya 14:02

Um, and I want to talk about what you what you brought up, which is like that space of being able to say I'm sorry, right? Which we generally call repair. I can own that I was wrong. Um, I can apologize and then implement action to change behavior or to make an adjustment so I don't repeat the same pattern. Or if I do find myself back there, how do I keep shifting and moving forward? And you do that, you know, we don't repair alone, right? We're not, we don't live in a vacuum. You repair in the space of other people. And so whether that's with your spouse or work or your children or just friends or family, I think it's one of the most important things we can do. And it's it's hard for a lot of people to say I was wrong because it brings up all sorts of stuff that I'm not good enough or I'm flawed as a human. But I have found, like

Practicing kindness and owning mistakes

Netanya 15:00

you said, once I started practicing it and leaning into it, I've gotten better at it. And I've gotten more comfortable with it in the process as well. And I don't take it, I mean, I do it at work all the time. The other day, not that long ago, I pointed out something to our team that I completely messed up with a client that they would not have known. Right. I could, it was just between me and the client. But to use it as an example of like, let's, I'm not gonna beat myself up about this, and this is how I solved it. Um, how do you feel like how do you feel like that has gone for you in other relationships, like with your partner or with with work?

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Yeah. I I love that example from your work because I think I I'm guessing your colleagues probably found it very refreshing. It's very refreshing to see someone own their stuff or their shit and um own up to it and and say, you know, I made the stick and this is what I did to make it better. It's rare to see people do that.

Netanya 15:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

And I'm I'm very fortunate that my my wife, Sarah, is is um always pushing me to laugh at myself and not be so serious. And um and also appreciates it when I own my stuff. When yeah, we have this thing she calls the male pattern confidence, where I will do something out of just because I think I know I'm completely wrong. And um if I own up to it, it makes the aftermath of of my big mistake a lot a lot easier and laughable. We were in in we're in Austria uh connecting there, and we had to make a connecting flight to get back to the states. The we X the deplet, we deplane, we're following everyone else to um uh you know, we're still in the the staying-in zone, and um so we we could have leave the airport, but I I saw this door that said up the stairs to to check in or something like that. And I'm like, this is where we need to go. And Sarah goes, but everyone's going this way, let's just go with they probably know where they're going. Look, oh no, no, it's Sarah's this way. And she I said it with such confidence and gusto that she's like, okay. And we go up, and there's this big long empty hallway, like a very long, empty hallway. And she knew immediately, and I knew immediately that I was completely wrong. And so we started walking and walking for a while, and finally an airport worker sees us, and we were we run up and say, Do you speak English? She's like, Of course. And like we we were trying to get about her plane, and she shook her head and just pointed to where she we were supposed to go. We had to go back outside the airport and go through check-in again and through all the anyway. Um, it this was about year three in sobriety, and it it was I was well practiced at this enough where like that was me. That was Mel Pattern cops, that was totally my my bad. This didn't make us or her less irritated at the moment, but we laugh about it now. Um, and I don't think that prior to being in recovery, I could have laughed at myself in that situation. I would just say, I am an idiot. Why do I do this? And blah, blah, blah. Um, so it's it's like you said, it's just a lot of practice, practice, practice. And and for my my my wife, Sarah, it's just uh very fortunate that she is willing um to abide all these these times when I have to say that's my fault, that's my bad. But you know, she's she's got her things too. We're just human. We're just you know, and I the more, but I have noticed the more that I practice it, um, and the more I'm honest with her, um, and also with my children. I have two children, that the more honest a foundation our relationship is. And I certainly think that that's the case with anyone that's important in our lives. That when they when they know that we're being honest with them, there is a sense of of deeper trust that's that's developed.

Netanya 19:28

Do you feel like have you fairly have you been a fairly honest human for most of this journey, or was there a time in your life where that was not true?

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Oh yeah. I w I h I hit everything. Yeah. Classic alcoholic. And the amount of hiding I did, um trying to hide what I didn't know in my work, trying to think make myself look like I'm a better better at my work than I am, or that I didn't spend all this money on on beer or booze at this bar or

The importance of community and belonging

SPEAKER_00 20:03

not. Like that is so much, so much lying and hiding. And when I pivot pivoting away from that in recovery has been one of the most serenity-inducing experiences where it is um refreshing to just be honest at my work when I don't know something or when I've messed something up, and with my wife and family, or you know, whoever I'm I'm I'm interacting with throughout the day.

Netanya 20:36

It's so refreshing, right? And like on both ends, when other people do it, I'm relieved. I'm like, oh great, thank you for just getting to the point of the thing. Like I said, even using work as an example, someone on my team doesn't know what they're doing. Um, I was talking to one of my one of my team members the other day, and I was like, she's newer. And I was like, if you and younger. And I was like, if you don't know something, I think what she tends to do is sort of hesitate and she'll lean back and then avoid the thing because she doesn't know what to do with it. And I was like, hey, from now on, if you don't know things, she she doesn't do anything, and then the client is waiting for a response and they're just waiting because she hasn't answered them. I was like, if you don't know things, you just make a list and we have meetings every week and you bring that list to me and we will talk about everything that you don't know. And I will help you get there. Because it's like owning that you don't know something is such a superpower. And whether it's I don't know how to do this, I don't know where I'm going, I don't know what's happening next, um, you know, traveling in another country, I don't know anything. You know, so I've had to be the new kid, you know, or moving to a different state and like getting comfortable being the new kid at something has been enlightening, so enlightening when you sort of give yourself permission to be like, it's okay that I don't know something. And it's so efficient because you get to the answer a lot faster than when you were avoiding it.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

I like that. Yeah, it is it is more efficient, isn't it? Yeah.

Netanya 22:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Yeah.

Netanya 22:12

Um, what is your experience like in a lot of this, you know, the undercurrent, there's a little bit of surrender and trust to all of this, right? What has your experience been like with divine timing or trusting the timing of things as they're unfolding?

SPEAKER_00 22:31

I you know, I've maybe I'm just getting old, Tanya. I I've I this part of this is recovery and part of it's just getting older. When there's things are just so much of life is just out of my control and out of my hands. And at this point too in my life, that a lot of the things that I look forward to as a younger man have happened. I I've I've um you when you imagine life as a in your 20s, you kind of think of all these grandiose things that you can do and become. At least I did. Maybe, you know, I think like um uh part of that's the the um delusions of grandeur that come from being an alcoholic. And a lot of those, some of those things happened and a lot of them didn't. And I'm almost I'm I'll be 50 in a year. Um so the timing of things I just see as like I'll I I try to do what I can. I have a I have a goal to do this. Like I wanted to go to law school and I I barely did it. Um I did it. And uh, but that was 20 years ago. Um so I I don't know. It's it's funny that to think about that, but how to deal with timing. And I think a lot of timing, if it's in your control, I'm probably gonna be late. If it's in my control, I'll probably be late. Um otherwise, it's probably out of my control. I just have to learn to live with it. And it it goes back to the the beautiful serenity prayer of having that wisdom to know what's what's in our control and what's not. That's real tricky. And that's that's a lifelong work, I I think. That's the real tricky thing.

Netanya 24:28

Do you feel pretty good about patience or do you ever find yourself impatient?

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Oh, my problem is that I'm too patient.

Netanya 24:34

Oh, oh, say more about that.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

Yeah, I'm just I just part of it is that I'm uh like my stone lethargy and like um Yeah. Uh so it's part of it, you know, patience can be a virtue. For me, it's probably not. Part of it's just my own uh gravitational pull toward toward idleness. I'm just um and but I so w when some when I'm expecting something and it doesn't happen, um

Trusting divine timing and life's mysteries

SPEAKER_00 25:11

I kind of look at it, well, I you know, I probably wouldn't get it done either if I was in that position. So I I kind of grant myself grace and the other person grace. Um you know, there's this also this other poem that I just love that I read it in my high school textbook, and it is basically um you know, I I think about when I when patience is also dealing with your expectations. So it is the the poem is expect nothing, live frugally upon surprise. Those two the the the phrase is just always stuck with me in uh my whole life since high school. And just I think that that practice of living frugally upon surprise is is not a bad way to go about about living. Um I want to say it's Alice Walker, but I might be wrong when she wrote the poem. I think it's Alice Walker. Beautiful poem.

Netanya 26:12

So if if that's a state that you're in, how do you move forward? How do you set goals or dreams or what pulls you forward in life if you're pretty like chill as a human and content to go along with the pace that life is?

SPEAKER_00 26:27

Yeah, that's a very good question. I when I know the answer, then I will do all kinds of things.

Joe 26:36

Fair.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Well, there's obviously there's there's um some intrinsic desires or interests that that compel me, there's obligations that I live up to as much as I can, sort of with being a father and a husband and um an employee of an organization. But yeah, I think I um I like that's probably the one thing I'm really looking toward working on the most in the years I had it, I have ahead of me is learning how to how to do this balance between finding things that don't that aren't busy work but are meaningful and to get kind of motivated to do it. That's like I I yeah, that's a struggle of like finding the motivation to do the thing I'm interested in. I don't know. That's that's something I look forward to working on throughout my life. What le what I have left of it.

Netanya 27:40

Well, you I mean, there are some things that bring you joy, right? That you are you intrinsically motivated by those things? Oh, sure.

Joe 27:49

Yeah.

Netanya 27:50

You know, music or you know, work that you love or family or Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Yeah, I know absolutely. Um this room I'm in was flooded five years ago, four or five years ago, and I had to gut the whole thing and rebuild it myself. Uh I was very motivated to do that.

unknown 28:11

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Because I wanted to have a working studio again. And also this is the room where I I work most of my my time in. Um so yeah, you know, it's it's not that it's not there. It's just not there sometimes in the quantities or the the volume that I needed.

Netanya 28:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Yeah.

Joe 28:30

It's a fascinating topic for me.

Netanya 28:32

Yeah. I'm fascinated. And how do you keep how do you keep going or how do you keep endurance with something that you don't feel motivated by but is necessary or you you want the long-term outcome of, but you don't feel motivated in the moment. How do you keep endurance in with that?

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Yeah. Yeah, it um that's also a great question. Um the stick to it-ness uh uh that's also something that the recovery has been so helpful for me and getting to this sense of owning my obligations and doing the work um toward them. I never paid bills for a long time. When I was in a young student out living out in Denver, my finances were a mess. I drank away most of my money. I didn't have money to pay bills, I just ignored things I had to do. I just ignored a lot. That builds up over time to that, that is like the first step of manageability. My life became unmanageable because I was ignoring everything. And and a lot of it was owed to to drinking. Um honestly saying that to myself, being honest with myself for the first time, and in a meeting and where I said, yeah, I my life, I'm an alcoholic, and my life has become unmanageable

Living with integrity and reliability

SPEAKER_00 30:03

because of it. The whole process of the 12 steps is just slowly getting away from that unmanageability. And and now I am, I don't know how. It's just it's I don't I don't know the mechanics of it, but somehow I'm much better at paying a bill when it comes or um setting that form that my son needs to go to this camp or whatever. Like those little things are not troublesome anymore, they're just part of the stuff I have to do.

Joe 30:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

And you know, I don't know what the change is. It's it's kind of a mystery.

Netanya 30:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

I'll just let the mystery be.

Netanya 30:44

That's awesome. Um, and there's not a right answer, right? That's the best thing about these conversations, is it's an exploration, right? And there's places that we're all like there's places that we've succeeded in things or overcome things and grown and healed, and there's places that we're all still learning. Right. And that's also valid. That's not there's not like a award for getting there faster.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Right. But I I am I am um I am uh in admiration of of like you are someone who sees something and goes for it and builds something and sticks to it. That's I don't know how you do that. I think it's it's amazing. My wife is the same way, she's she is the busiest person I know, is always working on some new thing and all kinds of different things: art, medicine, reading, exercise. And I it's it helps like some of it wears off on me, but I I I really admire people who have that get up and go initiative.

Netanya 31:49

Um, I'm curious about what your relationship has been like to integrity, right? Because that's some of the underlying thing to touch on. We talked about honesty again, that for me, those go hand in hand. I realized that I was so when my life was very unmanageable and I was very out of sorts, the like whisper there was how out of integrity that I was, not with what the world thought I should be, but with who I actually am. Right. And I felt like as I figured out what that meant to me and then got more clear about getting more honest with myself and more integrity with myself, my life evened out a lot more. What has your experience been like with integrity?

SPEAKER_00 32:33

I have a I have a bad relationship with that word. I still do. Um how come? I always associate with what I am not. Oh I I it's it kind of goes back to just the work that still needs to be done in in recovery. Um I I'm not like a man of my word necessarily. I'm one of those people that will say yes, and then like the time comes around to do it. I'm like, oh shit, I promise to do this thing. And and I still do this. Yeah, I still struggle with, yeah, I said I would do that, and now I I've got these other things, and so now I can't do it, or I'm uninterested. Or um, and I think it's I I'm comfortable, I'm comfortable being not it sounds weird. I'm I'm comfortable not being a person of integrity. That sounds like a terrible thing to say, but going back to to that what Father Zosima said, like here if you're thinking about it and are trying to get there, then you're on the right track. And and I I think that's how I feel. I'm like, yeah, I've got a lot of work when it comes to keeping my word and being um, you know, I and I guess it's like in the backtrack a little bit and say that I view integrity as like how I how reliable I am with other people. Um, because I'm pretty reliable and and sincere with myself and who I am.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

But when it comes with interacting with other people, I've got a lot of work to do. So yeah, I think I think when I think of integrity, it's it's like, oh yeah, that's a big, big area of my life where uh I've got a lot of work to do. I would like to do a lot of work there.

Netanya 34:24

Well, I like what I like that you went backwards and gave your definition of integrity because that matters, right? How you define it matters and how you relate to it. And so essentially, if I understood this correctly, you equate integrity with reliability. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Uh I'm curious why when you know that when something comes up, why do you say yes?

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Uh that is often it's because I can, I have the time and resources to do it. Um and then I just have inertia.

Netanya 35:03

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

I always love that word.

Netanya 35:06

Um do you say yes to things you don't want to do?

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Uh yeah,

Music as a source of healing and creativity

SPEAKER_00 35:11

I will. Yeah.

Netanya 35:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

And and I and again, honestly, the longer I have been living in this day-to-day living of recovery, living within this day-to-day world of recovery, I should say. Um it's become easier to say no to things and say yes to things I know I can do and then do that. And terribly unperfect at all of that, but but again, I'm I think I'm like heading in the right direction.

Netanya 35:48

That's good. Yeah. Um what is your experience like if we're talking about integrity and being in line with yourself? Have you what does it feel like to have been lost at points in your life and to find your way back around to who you are now?

SPEAKER_00 36:04

That's a great question. You know, I've I honestly don't think I've felt too lost throughout my life. It's fortunate that I've um you know, maybe maybe this is just from like my heritage too. Like Mormons love to say, you know, you came from somewhere. You you ask a Mormon who who their great grandma was, they'll probably be able to tell you where they were born. You know, it's just like I I've always knew and have always felt that there is the geography is important, being a Westerner. There's like like while Stegner says the the West is the great geography of hope or something like that. So I've always felt at home in the West, knowing this is where I am, and whatever I do here is just, you know, at least on out here, yeah, this is where I kind of feel like I belong. And as a s like I never felt like a lost soul never necessarily. Um I I have felt lost when it came to struggling with figuring how to stop drinking. Like that was the biggest mystery to me. I do not know what would compel me to get in my car at 3 p.m. when I still have two hours of work to do and somehow drive to a bar and drink. Like that is a miss, it's the craziest thing. And that felt very confusing for me, and and just I was lost in that context. I don't know how to stop doing this until friends brought me into you. Yeah, I I will so I will one of the stories I like to tell is that um when I hit my low point, when I when I was at my my bottom, I knew I had to do something. I had a really good friend in law school that we drank a lot together, and I knew that he had quit drinking. So the morning I woke up that morning and I knew I had to call my friend Matthew and find out what he did to stop drinking. And he said, hey, hey, fucking hey, man. And that was the beginning of it for me. And I went to a meeting that night and have been to a meeting every for every every day for 90 days then, and then you know, I I it it it was that friendship, that connection, that togetherness, the together movement that got me unlost in that kind of context.

Netanya 38:46

Yeah. When you I don't know that much about being Mormon at all. Um, but coming from a community that you're raised in and then later leaving that community, how is that with the shift in your identity? Or what parts of it do you do you keep any of it? Did you let go of all of it? What is that like?

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Yeah, it's fascinating because um there are some people who are were much more ingrained in it and then left. And I think it's a much more there's much more of a struggle because their families are still very active in the Mormon Church. I'm I'm I'm fortunate in that um I'm one of seven, and there's really only one of us siblings that's active in the Mormon Church. And like I said, my two sides, my family, about half of them have remained active, and probably more than half actually have have not remained active. So not being an active Mormon is just par for the course for my my background. But that that being said, there are a lot of great things about um about the Mormon church that I try to keep the good things and um letting go of the bad things is not too hard. But there, yeah, there's a sense that of strong sense of community and helping helping

The journey of self-discovery and authenticity

SPEAKER_00 40:13

your neighbors out. The the Mormons will not let one of their flock go hungry. It's a really cool aspect of them. Um and also just a sense of place and and where where we come from, which is I've mentioned before, and I think that's pretty cool. Um so you know that it's it's uh it's a very hard thing to leave for a lot of people. I know that they are ostracized from their family, and that's just leaving, but let alone if you're actually um drinking alcohol, which which is prohibited by the Mormon church. So if you combine that and leading a church, and yeah, I I um I think it's it puts I I'm just speaking not for myself here, but I I know that it's put other other folks in a very, very difficult situation. I I'm fortunate that I haven't had to contend with that. I have a great family, they're awesome. They're all we're all different and very different, and we just respect each other for that and love each other for it.

Netanya 41:22

Do you think at all, and I I genuinely am asking, I don't know if this is a thing or just how my brain works. Do you think at all that the prohibition of it lent itself to you later diving into it at all?

SPEAKER_00 41:36

I think I was always a latent alcoholic. And I do think that there is a genetic component to it too. Yes. Because other of my my my mom's dad was a heavy drinker. Um I had some great uncles that were dying of alcoholism. My cousin, who was a year younger than me, we were very close because we were close in age and we did a lot together, he died of alcoholism. I know there's um a strong component that is just kind of in our in our genes and who we are, but I my brothers got me drunk when I was like, I don't know, 12 years old. And that sucked. The the the hangover afterward, that I didn't want to, I was fine having nothing to do with it. Um but then that moment when I had my first sips as a as an adult, then it was like, oh, this is this is it. This is this is the stuff. I um I was at a I did a study abroad in Stuttgart, Germany, which is surrounded by these wine hills, white wine country. And I was it was I was gonna get married that fall in the Mormon temple, but I being in this wine country, it wanted to at least have a glass of wine, and so I asked some of my classmates to pick out some wine and dessert, and and I had this glass, this white glass of white wine and strawberry, some strawberry ice cream, I think. And it was just the most lovely thing. And I and it was I just felt like I was walking on sunshine. And then a few years later, I was working in the Utah legislature as an intern, and I went over to my friends after one of the sessions, and it was really stressful work. And he said, Man, you need a cocktail. This is one of my friends that went on a Mormont mission. All my friends went on Mormon missions, and all of them have subsequently left the Mormont Church. So the guy said, Let me make you a cocktail. And I said, Yeah, sure, why not? And that first cocktail was magical in the way that it just melted all this tension and stress away. And and that's like my latent alcoholism woke up and it was. Game on. And um so when I got to Denver and I had no no supervision, I didn't know anyone when I moved out here, that was the key to everything.

Joe 44:12

And it and it just just was debauchery. And yeah.

Netanya 44:19

Yeah. And I talk about that a lot because it's important to talk about, which is, you know, in recovery, especially I think we get into this like alcohol is bad or drugs are bad. And um obviously that's valid. But I also like to talk about at one point, right, they served you in a way. That's why you got down that road. And then the inability to stop or manage that, right, turned a corner and then you end up where you are. And there's lots of people that live in that gray area, right? Between this or that. But the fact that like um it's not a popular conversation, it's not a popular thing to talk about that that alcohol was useful in a way. It did the job that it was supposed to do. And then I like to think of it like um like a fairy candy or like it's it's a lie, right? Like it's it's there's a song. What song is it? It's a jelly roll song. And the the the the line in the song is these pills pretend to be my friend.

SPEAKER_00 45:24

Yeah.

Netanya 45:25

Right. And it's like that's what I feel like happens, is it's in and I've had I've seen many people write letters to alcohol to say goodbye to their best friend, right? Because it was there for you when you're alone or understood you when you nobody else did. And for a moment that feels like an answer or a solution. Right. And I want to validate that for a second it does feel true because it is, and then until it's not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Yeah. Yeah. I'm allergic to black and white thinking. I I I just I I and I'm totally fine with and comfortable with with normies. My wife is a normie and she drinks. We often have alcohol in our house, and I um I I I I this part of this is is comes back to the kindness thing. Like I I am not going to judge other people by what they do. I can only speak for myself. And part of that is just being kind to people. Um being kind to people is not presupposing that they are this person or this thing or they have this problem because they're drinking alcohol. Each person has their own relationship with it. I have no, I'm not privy to what that relationship is. And I have to just nor do I really want to. This recovery is is such a personal thing. And and our relationship with substances is our own thing. We have a wonderful amount of shared experiences for being in this beautiful community of recovery that help us to relate to how to get out of it. But I yeah, I just I don't um I think it's okay to say like it works. And I hear people say too that it worked until it didn't. It's totally valid.

Netanya 47:24

Yeah. Well, and I always like talk about how alcohol itself isn't a problem. My relationship to alcohol is a problem.

Joe 47:32

Yeah. Yeah.

Netanya 47:34

You know, and in the same way that there are some things that don't do anything for me. You know, I don't like cigarettes, doesn't do anything for me. I used to smoke them on occasion in college because all of my friends did, and they would all leave me alone in the bar to go have a cigarette. And so I would just go out and have a cigarette because I didn't want to be alone. But it just never stuck. It never stayed. I didn't like the way it tasted. I didn't like the way I smelled afterwards. I didn't like the way I feel like nothing about it stayed with me. But there are people that can't stop smoking.

Joe 48:06

Yeah.

Netanya 48:06

You know, and that's just not a thing for me. So, in that, in that same way, there are plenty of people that I think have a very different relationship with alcohol than I.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

It reminds me of the song my mom, my mom growing up, she played all these old Cole Porter, George Griffith songs and the piano. But there's one that's like, I get no kick from champagne and pure alcohol. Does it thrill me at all? But I get a kick out of you. But yeah, so some things just don't do it for people.

Netanya 48:31

But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:31

Yeah, it's an interesting point.

Netanya 48:34

Uh, what is your relationship like to community these days? Like if Mormon and that was a big thing for you in growing up and taking care of people, what does that look like now?

SPEAKER_00 48:42

Community. Yeah. You know, it's so I will be honest that when I do go back to Utah, um, and I should go back even farther from in time and say that my sponsor first pointed out to me that I had a chip on my shoulder against Mormonism. And when I go back to Utah, that chip on my shoulder is accentuated by just, oh fuck, I'm back here again. All the things, it's just such a cultural envelopment that happens when you go in there. Um, so I I've tried to again take the good things from it and just let it be. When I go back, I just have to let it be. And that's all I can do. Um, so now it is the the community for me is definitely around my my kinships in my home group in uh musicians in recovery. And in my neighborhood is a very important um world of community. Um I I am uh I think you there's you can actually be a communitarian. That's actually a word I like a political philosophy of communitarianism, and I I certainly subscribe to that that notion that um and I I think it I think it's important not to force community either. If I feel like I'm in a it's it it it's the old joke that macho March March Mark March March Groucho Marx and then Lydia Allen told this joke that I wouldn't want to belong to any club that would have me for a member. And I feel that way. Like whenever I'm like, oh, these people are just like me, um, I don't I don't like it. Except for a little oddly enough, in in my home group, we're all totally different. We have this one common thing, but otherwise, we're pretty different. And I don't feel like this is the club that would have me as a member, or like a bunch of misfits hanging out, and I love that. I like the misfits. And um it's you know, yeah, it's community is such a fascinating thing. It's it's what you make of it and where you find yourself. And it's not, it can be it can be virtual, it can be tied to topography or geography, and it can be tied to a sense of affinity towards, you know, well, whatever. But I, you know, for myself, uh I just don't force it. I can't force it. I think that's why I took away from Mormonism. I'm not gonna force this thing. I'm gonna this is not my these, this is not my job. This is not my deal.

Netanya 51:27

What is talk to me about being a musician in recovery? What is that like for you?

SPEAKER_00 51:32

That's been so beautiful, just so beautiful. It it is um, and it's easy to compare it to when I was writing music or recording music when I was drinking. I have so many great examples that I still have where I was writing something drunk out of my mind, and then listen to the next day, and like that is just pure, pure drivel. It's terrible, it's trash. And I have got a whole catalog of these drivel terrible things. It being able to sit down and connect with the dream area of our brain, or wherever creativity comes from, that spark of um instantaneous uh creation, whatever it is, uh it it lasts longer and it sounds better in recovery. Yeah, you can actually lay down a coherent track. I can lay down a coherent track and listen to it the next day. That is that's tight, that's good. I'm gonna keep doing that. Or that's not working, I'm just gonna drop it. And and learning to just drop songs that I know are not good, or it's a lot a lot easier to do. Yeah, because I think part of it too is I had this fantasy as an active alcoholic that music was gonna be my savior and bring me uh you know fame and fortune. I actually never really want to be famous, but you know, get me to some place that I thought I wanted to be. Now that is, I was able to drop that delusion. And music now is something I engage in. Whether or not anyone else hears it, I don't um is not important to me. It's it's all about this kind of communication with my my inner um imagination. And um what what comes of it is just you know, that's it's that journey. It's the journey, not the destination with music now, I suppose.

Netanya 53:44

In that inner imagination, when you connect with that, is that similar to either intuition or a higher power at all, or is that its own thing for you?

SPEAKER_00 53:53

It's it's it's it's it's they're separate in my mind. Okay. Um I'm not too mystical of a person. Um I I um yeah, you know, I just I kind of just appreciate where mysteries are in and to just let them be. Which is a song, which is another song by Irish Dement, Let just Let the Mystery Mean. It's a beautiful, beautiful country song, just let the mystery be. And I'm very happy just to sit and let that be.

Netanya 54:27

How do you access that part of you? Like do you start playing and then you get there, or do you have to get into a state before you start working on something?

SPEAKER_00 54:36

I um I can do it if I start working on scales and atudes and um if and so I can usually access it about maybe minute 45 into practicing just my, you know, just whatever I need to do to uh maintain skills and whatever. Um then uh and something kind of just comes out after that. The other thing that I have done and really started doing in earnestness last year was free writing. Um just taking 10 minutes every morning as soon as I can between waking up and getting to a place where I could sit and write, and picking an object and writing about it using as much image uh imagery and all the senses I could to write about it. Uh that has been very helpful is just in terms of writing words. Um and I and I find the same thing with music that if I'm part of it is this this work of just practicing your attudes and your whatnot, um, that you it starts to access other parts of the brain that are kind of more tucked away. Um the other thing is that just for me is doing it more and more and more that it's being more prolific and being okay saying this is junk. I mean, got it out, I got it out, now I can put it over, you know, file it over there. And the more I do it, the more um more often I am like more often I can find something that, you know, this is work. I like I like listening to this. I will listen to this again. And it's fair because it's all stuff that I create for myself. No one listens to my music, which is fun, but don't really writing it for myself. And I'll talk around and listen to it, but that's about it.

Netanya 56:35

Um do you write songs or also like lyrics, or do you just write music like songs?

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Both, both, yeah. I like to write um I like to write instrumentals, or I like to write some jazz tunes, or uh when I I took AP music theory in high school and so I learned how to write four-part harmony with all the rules of that. So I'll write like a little quartet, or um you know, some or some kind of like almost EDM music kind of and then sometimes I can write a song with lyrics. It's really hard for me. I really struggle with lyric writing. And I've got gods of songs that could use lyrics, but I need to meet a lyricist.

Netanya 57:20

Um is there anything, I have one last question for you, but is there anything else you want to share that we didn't talk about that you think people need to know?

SPEAKER_00 57:30

No.

Netanya 57:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

You're you're a very good interviewer, you have great questions, and I think you covered a lot of uh ground.

Netanya 57:38

Um thank you. And my last question then is if you were to talk to someone listening, someone who just listened to this interview, what would you give them permission to do afterwards?

SPEAKER_00 57:49

Who? Um I would give them permission to go eat a big ice cream sandwich. To to just indulge in your favorite, most decadent dessert.

Netanya 58:05

Great. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 58:08

There's there's some cup of coffee in the morning, greatest gift you can give yourself if you're a coffee treaker. If not, give yourself the gifts of just living life at that moment, enjoying something decadent.

Netanya 58:23

Beautiful. I love it. Thank you so much for saying yes to this.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

Yes.

Netanya 58:29

Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to NataniAllison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.