EP49: When Logic Isn’t Enough | Self-Centered Fear, Ego, and the Illusion of Control — with Bob W.

Moving Sobriety from the Brain to the Heart

When high achievement and overthinking can no longer protect us, what does real surrender actually look like?

In this episode, I sit down with Bob—a retired attorney in long-term recovery—for a deeply honest conversation about what happens when our sharpest tools stop working. For decades, Bob relied on his intellect, problem-solving, and professional success to navigate the world, only to discover that logic alone couldn't save him.

Together, we unpack the messy, multi-stage process of letting go—from dismantling defense mechanisms and dropping the masks we wear to wrestling with faith as an overanalyzer. Bob brings incredible humor, humility, and hard-earned wisdom to what it really takes to quiet a busy mind and step into genuine peace.

In this conversation, we dive into:

• The Engine of Fear: How self-centered fear drives our worst character defects—and why intellectualizing or fixing them on our own never works.
• Religion vs. Spirituality: The distinction between rigid dogma rooted in the past or future and a lived, present-moment spiritual practice.
• The Power of the Pause: How stepping back from constant control and defensive reactions allows us to land in true acceptance and serenity.

Whether you're navigating recovery, wrestling with perfectionism, or learning how to let go of the need to control every outcome, Bob's journey offers a deeply human look at what it really takes to drop the armor.

Full episodes and show notes: netanyaallyson.com/episodes/49

Transcript

Surrender, listening and self-awareness

Netanya 0:29

Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. Today's guest is Bob W. In this episode, we get into why intellectualizing our fear-driven defects never fixes them, how to shift away from rigid beliefs about the past or future and into present moment living, and we discussed using the power of the pause to move out of self-defense and into real acceptance. Here we go. So I want to talk about surrender.

Joe 1:20

Okay.

Netanya 1:21

What uh what does it mean to you in general of what has that experience been like for you being in the state of surrender or trying to be?

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Okay. For me, it's been there are several types of surrender as I've discovered. And in my recovery, uh I've gone through several stages of a surrender. And a lot of them equate to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. And a lot of them re refer to a lot of the steps. But the to start with, um the first major surrender dealt with my idea that I was smarter than everybody else. That was the first part. Okay. Uh and I got in a terrible car accident uh before I got in the program. And uh almost killed myself and almost killed someone else. Neither of those two things happened, thank goodness. But came coming out of that, I recognized that I had a problem drinking too much. I was massively drunk when I got in the accident.

Netanya 2:26

Oh, were you?

SPEAKER_03 2:27

And I came to the conclusion that I drank too much. So I had to control my drinking. Now, with my superior intelligence, there is no way that I could not do that on my own. I got straight A's in high school, straight A's in college. I went to law school, I had a successful legal career. Things were going fine on that respect. And I said, hey, I can figure this out because I'm a problem solver. So I decided, okay, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna come up with strategies on how to control my drinking. And I did a lot of the things which are mentioned in the literature. Uh, you know, I shifted from scotch to bourbon because I didn't think I liked bourbon, but you know, guess what? That didn't work. I gave up bourbon and then went to all beer, gave up beer and went back to wine. Tried that for a while. I tried drinking a full glass of water between each drink. That's nuts. Um, you know, you end up in the bathroom all night. Uh so yeah, uh that went on for four and a half years. And it didn't help matters because when you're drinking too much and you know you're drunk and you're driving down the interstate, and instead of being one line in the middle where you're supposed to go, there are three of them, and you don't know which one you're supposed to be driving beside. It started scaring the heck out of me. So after all of these different strategies, four and a half years worth, all of a sudden I came up with one more strategy. Why don't I ask someone else how they do it? Whoa. You mean I'm actually gonna let someone else tell me something? That's a that's a surrender. I had to had to recognize that I needed someone else to give me input. And I had to be teachable. Um so fortunately, I talked to a very good friend of mine who hadn't been drinking in a long time. I didn't know he was in the program of AA, had no idea. Um, and he spent seven hours with me one day, and as a result, I started attending AA meetings. Well, that was not that that was an initial stage of that initial surrender, okay? But that wasn't that really wasn't the key. Three months in, I had read the literature, the AA literature, and and I understood it, or thought I did, and I was an expert. Okay, after three months. Of course, I'm pretty intelligent, you know. So I'm at a meeting, an AA meeting, and whatever the topic is, I don't even remember what it was about, but I decided that I would pontificate and tell everybody, you know, what they needed to know about that topic. And apparently I really did it. Okay. This lady comes up to me after the meeting and she grabs me by the shoulders and said, Bob, I hate to burst your bubble, but you're not that damned important. She could see my mouth drop open, and she was the first person who ever put a crack in my ego. And I think that is when I surrendered to the idea that I could not stay sober without the help of other people. Massive surrender. Um, and that's what kept me dry for a long, long time. There was a lot of other problems I had with working the program of AA, and that took that took me 10 or 15 years to really comprehend a lot of that, even though intelligently I knew it. I didn't have the 16-inch drop to my heart to understand it and and and digest it. But that was the that was the first major surrender. The second one, I wasn't planning on drinking and quitting drinking forever. I was just, you know, gonna go to these meetings and learn a lot and get their input, have them help me out. And a year or two or three down the road, I'd probably be able to have a few drinks now and then. So I hadn't given up completely. That is where the issue of powerlessness that's talked about in the first step of AA supposed to be powerless over alcohol. Well, I didn't buy being powerless, hated the word powerless because I don't I to this day I don't like the word powerless, because I don't think anybody is a hundred percent powerless over anything. You put me in the boxing ring against a heavyweight boxer, and I am going to lose. But I'm not powerless. First thing I can do is fall on the floor and you know, before he even hits me. The second thing I can do is run around for 15 seconds before he hit hits me, takes one one swipe at me, and I'm gone. The third thing I can run and leave. But I'm not powerless, okay? I mean, I'm going to lose, going to lose the war. And I understood that from the first surrender. I I comprehended that, but the word powerless bothered me. And it after worrying about that for 10 years, I finally recognized two things about my drinking. The first one was that, and it's mentioned in the Dr. Silkworth in the beginning of that, of the book Alcoholics Anonymous, talks about it. He says we have a physical allergy with a mental obsession. Okay, that's kind of my what my problem is. I read it, it didn't sink in. Finally, after about 10 years, I reached two conclusions. The first one was that um most people are born with a with a gauge or or a valve inside. And after they've had so many drinks, two or three or something like that, that little switch goes off, and they say, I think I've had enough. I wasn't born with that switch. Okay, which means once I have a drink, it kicks in what Dr. Silkworth calls the physical allergy part, one and that some people call it just the craving, which it doesn't kick in until I take the first drink, at least for me. I couldn't, I didn't know whether I was going to drink two or twenty two. And I would sometimes drink a few, and other times I would have no idea how far many I was gonna drink. But I had no control over it once I took the first drink. Uh I refer to it as I never got run over by the caboose, I always got run over by the locomotive. Now, that that took care of the physical allergy, but then the question came down as to why I took the first drink to start with.

Joe 8:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

And that was a little more complicated for me. It took it took me a while. And my my my current belief, and this is I've been in the program a long, long time, uh, but my current thought is that I had a this goes all the way back to childhood now. Okay. I never thought I was good enough. Very common. I mean, people uh I hear people all the time people talk about that. Never thought I was quite good enough. I had a brother who was three years older than I was, and he did everything better than I did, and I always thought my parents liked him better than I did. And and growing up, I had this, you know, this inferiority complex. Also, then I learned to play guitar and I became in a rock band, and I thought I was an egomaniac, so all of a sudden I was an egomaniac with an inferiority complex. That was great. Then uh I started drinking, and I discovered that was one of the best cures for that feeling of insecurity and that feeling of not being good enough. And I did heavy into college, and after that for many, many years, uh, and I became so dependent upon

Recognizing powerlessness and the role of the higher power

SPEAKER_03 10:07

it that uh it became my best friend. Alcohol became my best friend, and I look back on it, and it's kind of fun looking back on what happened and how I got where I am today. Uh I when I moved to Nashville to go to law school, I'd already been drinking heavily for two or three for four or five years. I moved into Nashville and did not know a particular a single soul for 500 miles. I I got into my apartment, which I'd set up ahead of time, and I looked around and said, what do I do now? I walked down to the corner store and bought a six-pack of beer, brought it back to my apartment, popped the first can, and I was no longer alone. That should occlude me in on something. But no, it didn't, and I kept going for quite a while. Um, so so what I'm convinced of now is that over time I had convinced my subconscious, something in the back of my brain, that whenever I felt uncomfortable or happy or just anything, that getting together with my best friend would be the best thing to do, which was alcohol. So it just was natural for me in any circumstance to want to have a drink. That was ingrained in my the back of my brain. And just because I consciously wanted to not drink didn't help because it would pop out whenever whenever I I didn't know when. So that is the mental obsession I had. The mental obsession was really kind of something in the back of my head that popped out regularly to tell me that I wanted the first drink. So that 10 years after I'd been dry, incidentally I use the word dry, not sober, because I don't think anybody really gets sober just by quitting drinking. I think they have to be in some recovery position or go through something or be in a recovery program or need help from other people before they develop any level of sobriety.

Joe 12:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

So to me, I've been dry now 10 years.

unknown 12:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

Or maybe even 15, I don't know. I all of a sudden come to the conclusion, yep, I got a mental obsession and I have a physical allergy. The two of them combine

Physical allergy and mental obsession in alcoholism

SPEAKER_03 12:30

together, and that's how I get past the powerlessness issue, even though I don't like the word powerless. I still don't like the word powerless. But that was when I fully surrendered to the fact that I could never drink again successfully. Up until then, I think it was always in the back of my brain, maybe, maybe, maybe. And everybody would say, well, just take one day at a time. You can always drink tomorrow, but you don't have to take a drink today. And that's why the slogan, one day at a time, which is phenomenal, uh, because people can't buy the idea that they can never drink again. I have so many people that I work with, I have sponsees that I work with, and and they keep they they ask the question, well, you does that mean when my daughter gets married I can't have some champagne at the wedding? So let's not worry about that now, one day at a time. Okay, so finally, ten years in, I surrendered to the idea that I could never drink safely again. Took me that long. Okay, so that's a that's a long process. All right. We have a third surrender that came about.

Joe 13:38

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

In the program, and and probably in most programs, it's a spiritual program, and most recovery ideas I think have to deal with some spirituality. They deal with you have to come to grips with a higher power, which most people call God, some people don't. And the second step says, we, you know, came to understand that a higher power could restore us to sanity. And the third step says, made a decision to turn our will over to the care of God as we understand him. Wonderful. I've been going to church all my life. Okay. I understood what the church doctrines said about God. I comprehended. I was very active in the church, in fact, when I got in the program. So when I first looked at it, I said, higher power, God, not a problem. Then I got to the wording in there. It says, God as we understand him. And I all of a sudden I said, Uh-oh. I know what everybody says God does and all this other stuff about God, but I don't understand God at all. Okay. Problem. And I said, the heck if I'm going to turn my will and my life over to something or somebody that I don't know what it is. Okay. Took me 15 years to get through that. My brilliant idea was to come study comparative religions.

Joe 15:07

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03 15:08

So I got into studying. Um, I started, I I already knew Christianity to some degree, knew a little bit about Judaism, because when you know Christianity, you have to know some about that. First I du dove into Islam. It's also a Western religion, which is very simple which has some similarities. I understood that. I won't say I understood it, but I I comprehended it. Then I went over and looked at Eastern religions, Hinduism and Buddhism. Then Confucian, really, I don't think is a religion, but I looked at that too. And Sikhism, which is a combination of Islam and Hinduism, I think. And I I studied all that. Buddhism, incidentally, is spectacular for recovery. I think it's one of the most phenomenal. I think people could probably recover from anything if they just studied Buddhism. I don't know. But um after 15 years and the differences between particularly between the Eastern religions and the Western religions, there's some real massive differences between the two. I all of a sudden threw in the Tao, the surrender tau, and I said, I don't know. I don't know who or what God is. And not only that, I recognized that I'm never gonna know who or what God is. For some reason, with all the studying I'd done, I got comfortable with that. I said, it doesn't matter. I don't have to know. Okay. And the Buddhists love to say, when you know that you don't know, that's when you know. I like that phrase because I know that I don't know. Um so anyway, then I had a real question mark. Everybody in this program of Alcoholics Anonymous says that you have to work the steps in order. Again, I told you it took me 10 years to do step one, and here I am 15 years down the road into step three. How in the heck did I manage to not drink for 15 years going through all this stuff without drinking? That's when it dawned on me what had happened. Six months after I'd gotten dry, I was at a meeting, and after I was probably pretty pretty miserable at that time. A girl came up to me afterwards and said, You kind of look miserable, don't you? I said, Yeah, I am. And she said, Have you done a fourth step yet? I said, No. And she said, Well, maybe you want to dive into that. Might might might help you a little bit. So I dove in and did a fourth step. And I did, took me two months to do it, um, and it was very detailed. I've still have a copy of it, and I've looked back on it many years down the road, and I still think I did a decent job. Strangely enough. I learned a lot by going through that process, including the fact that I somebody later made me itemize them. I have 53 defects of character. Okay, so I've I had to

Exploring spirituality, higher power, and understanding God

SPEAKER_03 18:10

itemize them. But all of them fell under two umbrellas. One umbrella was self-centeredness. Which I've already talked about my ego and my problem. Yeah. I really the fact that this lady had told me I'm not that damned important, you know, way back three months previous, or actually by that time five months previous, that was the start of the process. But once I'd gone through doing a fourth-step inventory, I recognized how self-centered I was. When the football team goes in the huddle, they're talking about me. Okay. Uh and the whole world revolves around me. And in one respect, when I think about it, I might have thought I was God for a while in certain respects. I was massively self-centered. But a lot of the other defects of character were based on fear. I was always afraid, and a lot of it is, you know, you're afraid of something impairing your ego. But I didn't combine those two concepts together until I'd read something in, again, AA literature. Strangely doesn't come until step seven. I don't know why they waited that long. Said self-centered fear is the chief activator of our defects. Bingo, the light came on. I comprehended why everything. My entire life came into focus when I when I read that. I don't know because maybe I'd just finished the fourth step and it was all fresh in my mind. But I went all the way back to my uh childhood, and I could see how self-centered fear caused me to do all sorts of stupid things growing up. And anytime I'd gotten in trouble or anytime I'd done something that I regretted later, I was always afraid of something that was impairing my ego or my self-centeredness. Interesting, you know, revelation when I when I came to that conclusion. Since then, I've been dry a long time. Self-centered fear is still my problem. It hasn't gone away. The thing is, I'm aware of it when it pops up most of the time. Um that also uh brings up the whack-a-mole machine. This is another surrender. Another surrender uh occurs. We're supposed to be ready to be get rid of all of our defects. Well, if you read, again, literature and you just study it a little bit, you recognize that you're never going to be rid of all your defects. They say that the God of your understanding is supposed to help you get rid of the defects. Whether that works or not, I don't know. But coming to the recognition, again, self-centeredness comes to play here, that I could not get rid of my defects. I had to throw in the towel. I cannot do it myself. Okay. I don't know how you know how that works, but reading about self-centered fear activates the defects as the whack-a-mole machine. All of those defects are under the machine. And different defects pop up at all different times, judging someone else. I'm a perfectionist, I'm a procrastinator, all these different things pop up at different times. And so if you spend your whole life knocking down the whack-a-moles, you're never going to get very far. So the question is, what makes the whack-a-mole machine work? The electricity is plugged into the electricity. You got to unplug the whack-a-mole machine. Well, what's it plugged into? It's plugged into self-centered fear. So whenever I feel that I've done something or about to do something of which a defect of character is going to pop out, I ask myself, what's the self-centered fear that's behind it? What am I scared of, or what is my ego afraid of? And I Uh again, I've also learned through through literature that there are that our ego is just what's in our brain. And part of our basic problem is we don't know how to turn the brain off. And that it it's Eckhart Toll, I think, that I've read some of him. And um he says there's really two of us, you know, there's the basic who we are, and then there's who our brain says we are. And we live 99% of our time with what our brain says we are, because we can't turn our brain off. Well, that's the that's the ego. The ego comes out of that brain that's up there functioning or trying to function. Um so once I understood that, uh I gave up trying to fix my defects. The only thing I can do is to uh recognize my ego when it starts popping out or attempt to. And that's where really helping other people and doing things for other people come into play big time. And and actually uh I'm an introvert. And so is getting out of myself and talking to other people is not automatic. I mean, I was an attorney, so I I know how to speak in front of people. That's not a problem, but you know, dropping the walls down and and and being able to talk to people and and letting them in uh about what's going on and listening to them and learning how to listen.

Netanya 23:24

Yeah. What has that been like?

SPEAKER_03 23:26

Learning how to listen.

Netanya 23:27

Yeah. Um with your big ego in the way.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

My problem is I'm I listen to someone and before they're through, I've already come up with a solution to their problem.

Joe 23:39

Ah.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

Okay. Because I'm a problem solver. Uh-huh. Okay. I was a math major and you know, I and then I went to law school and I'd learn how to solve people's problems. And so I'm I'm listening. And before they even tell me the end of the story, I've already figured out how to solve their problem. Now, little do I know that the end part of their story might be very important to what is necessary to solve their problem. And maybe I shouldn't be the one to solve their problem.

Joe 24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

Okay.

Joe 24:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

Yeah. I've I've heard it said that, you know, before you before you t tell someone about something, you need to ask, does it need to be said? Does it need to be said by me? And does it need to be said now? Yes. And uh being an attorney was tough because people came to me for advice.

Netanya 24:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:24

So they are wanting me to come up and give them either an answer to their problem or solutions to their problems. So I'm listening to it. And unfortunately, I've heard the same kind of story many, many times. So I am already responding

Self-centered fear and the defects of character

SPEAKER_03 24:38

and, you know, kind of in my brain say, I already know your what your problem is, and I already know how how do we need to solve it. That problem is harder in personal relationships.

Joe 24:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

You can't do that when you're trying to talk to other people. Um I used to think I could always talk my way out of anything. And I now realize that it isn't it isn't always what people are thinking, it's what they're feeling. And you're never going to get down to what they're feeling unless you listen to them.

Joe 25:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

And you have to listen to where they're coming from. And I go to meetings now and I'll quite often just listen to the not just what people are saying, but how they're saying it. And normally I can pick one or two people that are really hurting, and I might go up and talk to them afterwards to see what's going on. Sometimes I you know, sometimes they don't say anything, so they just sit there, but the expressions on their face indicates that they're really troubled about something. Now they may not want to talk to me, but at least their their body language is telling me something, and I'm listening to that.

Netanya 25:45

Uh well, you did that with me last week.

SPEAKER_03 25:48

Yes.

Netanya 25:49

With the fortress conversation. And I appreciate it greatly. And it turned into a beautiful conversation after a meeting. Uh what has that been like for you? We talked about being a fortress with walls, and you know, because it it requires a level of vulnerability. You have to let people in. And that's its own battle, especially if you're if you're so much in you, which it sounds like you had been for many years. How do you not only get out of you, but then let other people in without bracing or you know, protecting?

SPEAKER_03 26:20

There are certain things that are within my walls that might never come out. And I'm well and I'm I I'm actually aware of some of those, what they are. Yeah. And I say they're locked inside and they probably might never come out. Uh you know, which might not be a good thing, but I but I know it's there. And I also know I've locked it away, and I think I've thrown away the key. Um But I think when I stopped practicing law, and I I've I'm retired now, and that helped because I no longer had to control results.

Joe 26:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:57

And and it helped uh and and all of a sudden I didn't feel like I had to put up the facade of being a lawyer. I've now learned that you know, for all my life I put on masks, and that's part of the ego, but there's not just one ego. I had dozens of egos. I would put on a different face depending on the circumstances. Uh if I was with a group of people, you know, in a social event, I would put on a particular face. If I was uh, you know, at home with my wife, I'd I put on a particular face. If I was with someone, my golf buddies put on a different type of ego, you know, and you and you you act differently there. It's really important for me to recognize when I have masks on that I know it's not me. And I think I have less and less masks that I put on, and that's really building the taking the walls down in a way. Stop trying to act like somebody that you're not. And I I realized that uh b the person I am inside, not the brain, well not what the brain says, but the person inside. I'd I'd prefer that it comes out as much as possible. Now there are circumstances where I think the mask has to come on. You know? You show up at a funeral and you're gonna put on a mask of being sympathetic and and real compassionate. Even if you don't know the person, you're gonna do that. Now, again, you might feel bad that someone lost a loved one, but I've gone to a lot of funerals that I didn't know the people very well, but you know, you still put on put on the mask that you need to put on for that circumstance.

Netanya 28:33

Um Do you feel like like outside of circumstances like that, but with people in your real life, right? Friends or family or community, do you feel like do you feel like you've gotten rid of a lot of those, or do you still find yourself noticing that you have them still occasionally?

SPEAKER_03 28:50

I think I I think I always probably have them occasionally um but not near as much. Uh I've I've I now will speak my mind without offending people, uh but I'll at least stick up for a position, even if it's a position that I know no one's gonna like. I've been known in a a group where somebody's voting on something and I'm the sole person voting against it. And and you know, everybody kind of looks at me like, what's wrong with you? But you know, that's it's okay. I've now learned that what other people think of me is none of my business. For a long time I'd walk into a room and say, Hi, how am I? As if they were going to tell me how I was doing. And I now realize that that how I'm doing has nothing to do with what they think I'm uh what do they they think of me.

Joe 29:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

That I'm responsible for myself uh recognizing how I'm doing.

Netanya 29:47

When you you were talking about in the very beginning the the not enoughness when you were a kid, right? And not not feeling like you're enough.

Joe 29:55

Right.

Netanya 29:55

How is that? And then you went through that journey with drinking to deal with that.

Joe 29:59

Right.

Netanya 29:59

How do you feel like that today in terms of feeling like you're enough or you know, finding solace in who you truly are, regardless of what other people think?

SPEAKER_03 30:08

I think the first thing is that I know that I don't know. That is really

Vulnerability, walls, and letting people in

SPEAKER_03 30:15

key. And I I saw a quote today, Socrates said, you know w when you know is when you don't know. And that was the same same thing that the Buddhists say. Uh but I think that that the first part was uh that that I I'm not as smart as I used to be. And I don't have to manipulate everything. And knowing that um makes it makes me feel like I don't have to be perfect. I think when you're when you feel like you're inadequate you always feel like you have to do things perfectly. You have to do it right or something's wrong with you. Well, uh I'm you know, I'm not right all the time. And guess what? I've gotten over that. Like I'm allowed to be wrong. Uh and I'm I'm not and I an all that, but I I don't even know what's right sometimes. I just do the best I can. So getting over uh the idea that uh I was supposed to fix things. I never got involved in relationships, I always took hostages.

Netanya 31:22

Ooh.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

How's that?

Netanya 31:24

That's good.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

You haven't heard that one before.

Netanya 31:27

Not no, not like that.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

Okay. No, no, whenever you get in a relationship, whether it's whether it's with but this doesn't matter whether it's friends or with girls growing up. I always wanted them to do what I wanted them to do. And if they didn't, they didn't like me and I didn't didn't have anything to do with them. So but I had to take hostages, literally.

Netanya 31:48

Man, that's exhausting.

SPEAKER_03 31:50

Yes. Well, I know a lot of people that do the same thing though.

Netanya 31:53

Yeah. Well, and it takes all of the reciprocity out of a relationship, all the love, all the connection.

SPEAKER_03 32:01

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Man. Exactly. You manipulate is what you're doing. You're it's a it's a manipulation process and it's uh sickening when you think about it.

Netanya 32:11

But yeah. So how did you get to a point where you A recognized that you did that and B changed that behavior?

Joe 32:19

Ooh.

SPEAKER_03 32:24

I think the process of knocking my ego down over time, realizing I I was not not only that I couldn't control everything, but that I'm not in charge of the results and that all I can do is the best I can do. I also got to the point where if I'm no longer concerned about what you think of me, I can just be myself, and if that's not good enough for someone to like me, then I can't do anything about it.

Netanya 32:59

Or did they all kind of you know fade themselves out over time and you had to build new ones with finding yourself in that?

SPEAKER_03 33:08

When when I was when I was practicing law, I hired a paralegal and she came to work nine months before I got dry.

Authentic self, masks, and authenticity in relationships

Joe 33:19

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

She got to see me drunk a lot. Okay. And um after and and for some reason she didn't quit. I don't know why, but she didn't. Thirty-eight years later, she was still working for me when I retired.

Joe 33:34

Really?

SPEAKER_03 33:34

And so she got to see the change in me. And uh it and not only that, she actually helped, I think, in a lot of times because she she would got to the get to the point where she would not um put up with any grief from me. She would talk back to me and she would let me know if I my ego was getting out of hand. She didn't say it like that, but that's really what she was doing. And and so that that was a an interesting relationship there too, because I was I was a pompous lawyer who was, you know, the she's an underling, okay. Well, all of a sudden she wasn't. All of a sudden we were we were actually partners, you might say. I mean, in not in the legal sense, but in the way we work. Her her position was just as important as mine. And I came to recognize that and appreciate it. And that was that was pretty important that I no longer had the hierarchy uh the problem that a lot of other lawyers do.

unknown 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:29

They they they think they're bigger than everybody else.

unknown 34:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:34

And I I got over that. And that was that was a big help.

Joe 34:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:38

All of these are surrenders in a way. I'm throwing throwing a lot of concepts out the door.

Netanya 34:44

Yeah, well, there's lots of different aspects to it. Do you feel uh how about friendships? Do you have friends?

SPEAKER_03 34:50

I mean, I know you've been in recovery a long time, so it's been but like Well, I I have an I have a number of um golf buddies. And uh they pretty they pretty much know who I am.

Joe 35:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Uh I don't uh I don't hide it. I've I've gotten to the point where I'm I I don't know if if if I'd like to say I'm humble, but the minute you start start talking about humility, you don't have it. So I I don't. But I'm I'm pretty good at laughing at myself and beating myself up in a laughing way. Some people think I'm almost too hard on myself sometimes, but I it doesn't bother me because I'm joking about my own flaws and I and I kind of have fun doing it. It's kind of neat when you, you know, you you you act like an idiot and you say, you know, that's just me. I I don't know any better. And stuff like that.

Netanya 35:39

Aaron Ross Powell How are you with one of the things that I have had to work on the hardest is rule 62 and not taking myself so seriously. Because especially when when you do have a strong brain, right, and I overthink things and I can analyze things to death, that's exhausting. And if you have perfectionism that kicks in, right, and you want to try to get it all right so you don't go back to pain. Um, how have you been able to let go of some of that and find joy and laugh at things and not be so intellectual after a lifetime of building a career being intellectual?

SPEAKER_03 36:16

I quite often will say that I'm an overanalyzer. And it was, you know, five or ten years being dry, and I was overanalyzing something at one of these meetings, and they said, you need to surrender to the idea of being an overanalyzer and you need to work a program. You need a separate program dealing with overanalyzers because I was bad at that.

Changing behavior patterns and hostages in relationships

SPEAKER_03 36:40

And I'm still not good at it. Uh I can take anything that's in the literature that we read and I can pick it apart and I have problems with it. I have the issues with religion. Oh my goodness, I am terrible at overanalyzing it, uh, which might not be real good. I I have a difficult time with faith because when you overanalyze things, you run into roadblocks all the time. And as a result, you have a difficult time believing in something that you can't see if you've analyzed it and you recognize the the pros and cons and the problems with whatever the other people are saying about that belief. So I've had the issue with religion versus spirituality. I'm very I have my own idea of the difference between religion and spirituality. We're getting off track on this, right? It's a conversation. Okay. Um and I actually did uh at a Sunday school class, they asked me to teach. How stupid, and at a Sunday school class, they asked me to teach. Okay, that's dangerous. I actually taught classes on comparative religion for a while at a Christian Sunday school class. How stupid is that? Um But I did a whole session on the difference between religion and spirituality. I thought that was kind of fun. Uh but the one of the main things I learned about the difference between the two is religion always seems to be dealing with what happened in the past and what's going to happen in the future.

Netanya 38:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

Spirituality deals with what we're supposed to be doing right now.

Joe 38:20

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

Massive difference.

Joe 38:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:25

And to me, that was it it's if if you look at all the religions, a lot of them talk about maybe not Buddhism as much. Buddhism might not be a religion, incidentally. It might be more of no, but uh it might not be. It's more of a way of living. Way of living. Now, the undercurrent was Hinduism. But but uh Buddhism is probably almost all spiritual. I don't think there's a whole lot of dealing with past and future in Buddhism. It's dealing with now. Hinduism deals with a little bit of the future because it talks about reincarnation a lot. And all the Western religions, Christianity and Judaism and Islam, we're talking about what happens life after, if is there a one or whatever happens after you die, and what happened before. We're talking about history, historical stuff that happened. Um so not a whole lot of dealing with what we're going through right now.

Netanya 39:26

Yeah. Talk to me about faith. What does that mean to you and what is your experience of it?

SPEAKER_03 39:33

I used to think I had faith. And then then I got sober and I realized I didn't have much. That's really frightening in a way. And I I am extremely envious of people who have a deep faith. I am. Uh I think that they are happy, they are comfortable with their beliefs, and that's nice. But I that's another thing I've I've come to I guess it's another surrender. I've given up the idea that I'm really gonna never have a strong faith. I do I believe in what I can see. That's my problem.

Netanya 40:14

Oh, that's difficult. Well, there's a lot of things that exist that you can't see.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

Well, well, it's oxygen. It's no, it's what can what can be what can be shown and proven. Okay. And and um uh the first I I'll go back to to sobriety and alcoholism, and that I knew I recognized early on that the program of AAA, the program of AAA could keep me sober. Because I saw it in people. I saw people and they were getting better. Something's working in here, so whatever that is, I developed a faith in that.

Joe 40:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 40:51

Okay, I had I had a faith that that worked. Um but again in my studies, I've studied something called big history. I don't know if you've ever it talks about what science has shown us or what can they can pretty much prove fairly well as to what happened in the universe from seconds split seconds after the Big Bang up to today. They can show uh they they can show how everything came into being. With all all that existed at the beginning were a bunch of electrons and protons. And from that, everything came into existence, and they can show how it happened. Using physics and chemistry and biology and uh geology, they can show how all this happened. And they you all the only thing you need to make all those things happen are four forces. You have gravity, you have electromagnetism, you have two nuclear forces. Using those four forces on those protons and electrons, they can show how everything came into being. Problem is no one can understand those four forces. Okay? Einstein couldn't. He tried to try to understand gravity and really didn't do a very good job. So right there, okay, if I'm gonna buy that instead of a religious form of how the earth came into being or how everybody came into being, if I'm gonna use that, then I have to deal with where did the four forces come from. Or what happened before the Big Bang. So you run into a brick wall no matter what, okay? And again, because I'm an overanalyzer, I I keep on running, I'll run down one road and run into a roadblock. So I'll look at another road. The one thing that I have gotten to the benefit of by being around in the pro in recovery as long as I have is I'm open-minded. I if someone wants to talk to me about God, I don't close the door. Tell me what your ideas are. Tell me how you understand God. I'm I'm always interested to hear that. Doesn't mean I always buy it, doesn't mean I'm gonna necessarily buy it, but I'm open-minded. And if someday someone says something to me about that or about anything else really that wakens me up, I'm ready.

Netanya 43:10

Have you or what has your experience been like with yourself for like spiritual experiences

Spiritual experiences and perceptions of divine presence

Netanya 43:17

or things bigger than you in general? Have you had anything that you would constitute that would fall into that category?

SPEAKER_03 43:26

Yeah. Um I told you I was in a car accident. Okay. And I was driving, I don't know, down maybe forty five miles an hour, fifty miles an hour, and I decided to pass a car. It was a two lane highway, and he had decided to turn left. So I ran into him. Cars tumbled over, and as the crunch occurred, I said, I'm gonna wreck, I'm gonna die. Because I knew I was going pretty fast. And I said, I'm I'm gonna die. It's over. At that point in time, the last thing I remember before I was knocked unconscious was the feeling of someone underneath me grabbing me under the arms and holding me. It's like someone picked me up or grabbed me under the arms, you know, like you pick up a baby or something. And then I was knocked unconscious. Okay.

Joe 44:22

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 44:23

I remembered that, which is amazing, considering I was just in a wreck. That was one that got me. Um one of the wildest ones, and it does have a religious connotation that I still don't understand to this day, is I was into working meditation real hard for a long time. I was doing the Eastern religion, Eastern religious uh meditation form where you know you literally are thinking of a word or breathing or doing whatever you want to do. And I was, I'd been meditating regularly for I don't know, a year or two or something like that. I was meditating one night and I was by myself in the house, and I was meditating in a chair. I quite often would go on a closet when my wife was around, but I but but no one was around, so I was just out in the open. And I'd been meditating for I normally meditate for 30 minutes at that point in time, and I had set my watch to go off, so it beep, beep, beep one at the end of 30 minutes, and I'd know to kick out of it. So I'd been meditating for quite some time, and I closed my eyes and I'm not allowed to open them. That's that's one of my rules when I was doing that. So long time into meditation, I thought I heard something in the house. And I thought to myself, the doors are locked, no problem. Don't worry about it. And that then, you know, I I kept on being aware of a presence. Something was there. And I said, hmm, what's going on here? I said, shall I open my eyes? Nope, don't open your eyes. Have you know have faith in the process, okay? You might say. Uh and all of a sudden, I didn't open my eyes, but all of a sudden, I became aware of someone standing in the door. Okay. And again, not opening my eyes, I became instantly aware it was whatever we perceived to be Jesus Christ standing there. Okay. So, whoa. I mean, I was thinking to myself, this is hallucinating. I I wasn't on LSD, I wasn't on anything, I wasn't hallucinating that I'm aware of. Um so I said, what's going on here? At that point in time, that figure comes walking over toward me. And have you seen the movie Ghost?

Joe 46:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

Okay. That figure comes over and goes inside of me. Okay? Just like you know, you see in that movie Ghost. At that exact moment, my watch goes off, beep, beep, beep, beep, meditation's over. Okay? Simultaneously, just a time. And so for a long time after that, and I'm stu I'm thinking back on it, I still have to look back and say, does that mean Christ is inside of me? I mean, you know, for religious terms, I mean again, I'm I have problems with religion, remember, but at the same time, I have to keep asking myself the question does that mean that there's uh something inside of me that you know I need to act on?

Joe 47:39

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

Interesting little process.

Joe 47:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

And even when I got in the program early on, the very first meeting I went to, interesting. The guy who got me in the program spent the day with me. He he dropped me off at the house uh for for me to eat dinner

The role of faith, science, and open-mindedness

SPEAKER_03 47:55

and said, I'll pick you up in an hour to take you to a meeting. And he gave me the big book, the book of AA, and he said, start reading chapter five. So I started reading chapter five, and I'd gotten into chapter six, ate dinner. He picked me up in an hour, and I went to a meeting. It happened to be a big book study where you're studying stuff in the big book. And I didn't tell, you know, I didn't mention anything about reading anything. Uh, but after they got the meeting started, they say, okay, where did we leave off last week? Well, somebody said, We left off in chapter six at page such and such. The exact paragraph I had stopped reading on before he came to pick me up. Now no one would have known what that chapter is. That's the one of those coincidences and we talk about there are no coincidences. Uh those are little spiritual items that you you kind of chalk up.

Joe 48:42

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

And that was my first meeting. That kind of I said, something weird's going on here. So I kept going to more meetings. That's again, at that point in time, I had not quite determined that I was going to stop drinking completely. I was there to learn how to control my drinking.

Netanya 48:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

Uh so I hadn't gotten even close to the idea that I had to quit drinking forever.

Netanya 49:03

So with having those experiences, do you do you cultivate any sort of conversation with whatever you perceive to be divinity, or do you kind of leave that over to the side?

SPEAKER_03 49:14

Aaron Powell I leave that over to the side for the most part because I'm not sure what I'm what I'm doing. I will say prayers sometimes. I don't know what I'm praying to, to be honest with you. I mean, and I go to church. My wife likes to go to church and I go with her. And I can put on a pretty good mask there too, because I I certainly understand it. Um I know what they say you're supposed to do as far as prayers. A lot of them I don't uh uh they bother me. Uh and then and a lot of uh the church I go to has a creed. And when they start reciting the creed, everybody's in the in the you know congregation is just reciting this creed offhand. And I ask myself, do they really believe anything that they're saying? So I never I never recite it. I just sit there and read it, and I'll say, yep, yep, nope, nope, yep, nope, maybe, maybe, no. And I'm I'm thinking to myself as they as they go through the different items in in the creed. Uh so I mean, and we're not going to get into a religious discussion, but I could do that for hours.

Netanya 50:25

I think what what I was going with that too is like I have had to I've had to change a lot of what I I was raised Catholic, um and then did a 180 on that.

SPEAKER_03 50:35

I grew up Episcoparian. Okay. So I'm very similar.

Netanya 50:40

Um but it took me a while. I like I didn't want to have anything to do with it when I was 18 or so. And then, you know, came back around to spirituality essentially. And part of that, like what what I talk about, what prayer looks like for me these days, it it used to look like you kneel in a pew and say the same words or, you know, do the sign of the cross. Um, and today it really looks like conversation. I just talk out loud and I will say anything. And I am funny and I am sarcastic and I complain and I ask for help. You know, it's really just like like almost like as if you had a friend on your shoulder and I'm like, what what is this? What do you want me to do with this? Really today, you know, like I'll just walk in and and I'll do it in my car, I'll do it, I'll walk around here while I'm cooking. And um, but it's helped me, and again, it's not about what I'm talking to, it's just that I'm talking, right? But it's helped me to I think feel less alone as a human um to to connect. I think connectivity is in general is important, but feeling like I've had my own versions of spiritual experiences, right? And how do I how do I allow that to exist and to be real and connect to things and not have tangible evidence? And so for me, conversation and just talking, I think it's almost like it feels a little bit rebellious because of the way I was raised, of like these are the words you have to say.

Early spiritual experiences and the journey of faith

Netanya 52:17

For me to say these are the words I'm gonna say, and this is how I want to do it, um, feels very freeing to me.

SPEAKER_03 52:23

But I was just curious on your on the way here to meet with you. I said a few prayers. I basically said, you know, I w wherever you are, whatever you're doing, you know, let me say something that might help somebody down the road or at least is not stupid. You know, you know, really. And and uh I'm a big I I like the serenity prayer because uh that's uh uh I have to accept things I can't change and and change the things I can and have some wisdom to know that. And that's a nice thing to ask for. Um where who grants that wish I don't know, but at the same time it's a nice thing to ask for. I'm more uh the 11th step we talked about in the program is sat through prayer and meditation. I'm less of a prayer person and more of a meditation person.

Netanya 53:11

Do you still meditate today?

SPEAKER_03 53:12

Not the way I did. And I I need to. I would like to, I'd like to get back into it. It's one of those things that's easy to get away from and it's hard to get back into. Because it has to be a a regular thing you do on a daily basis. And I learned a lot that when you meditate the first month or two you do it, you don't see much in the way of a you don't see much benefit. But if you keep doing it long enough, all of a sudden it you start feeling the difference.

Netanya 53:39

What do you think stops you from starting again?

SPEAKER_03 53:42

Life.

Netanya 53:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

Things happen, things things to do.

Netanya 53:46

Yeah. Yeah, no, that's valid. Um I started doing it in the morning. And I put I I do better with music. So I just put like relaxing music on and set and set my timer for 30 minutes. And um I don't do it every day, but I think I do it more now than I ever did. You know, and I I sort of took to your point on perfection earlier. Like I used to either have to do it all and do it every day and do it perfectly, or I would quote, fall off the wagon and then not and then say, F it, and I'm not gonna do this anymore. And I'm working on grace with myself that like this doesn't have to be perfect, that progress, not perfection, and can I just keep trying to show up and maybe I, you know, missed it yesterday or whatever, and just go, okay, well, I can do it again today. But that sort of practice of how can I keep showing up even when I miss it to allow room for that. Because I used to just always have to be I was just very black and white, this or that. There was no in between. And so I'm I'm working on being an in-between here.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

So many people think they have to be perfect.

Netanya 54:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:58

And to get past the fact you you're not none of us are perfect. Nope. Uh I I like uh uh someone I know always says I'm perfectly imperfect. And that's the one thing I'm perfect at. I'm perfectly imperfect.

Netanya 55:12

Well, and when we talked the other day about um me being a fortress and having all these walls up that I put up to protect myself from me, right? That my fear has always been taking those walls down means I'm gonna get completely run over or taken out or go all the way back into the pain that I felt before. And I don't want to do that. So I keep the like it's again, it's a black or white, uh, this or that. And it's like instead, how can I practice relaxing and letting people in and being vulnerable and being okay with uncertainty and not knowing all the outcomes.

SPEAKER_03 55:49

You don't want to be taken advantage of.

Netanya 55:51

No.

SPEAKER_03 55:51

And that's that's kind of what it's about.

Netanya 55:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:53

One one of the problems that I think made it more difficult for me in recovery was going to law school.

Joe 56:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:01

They teach you uh basically how to protect your client and protect yourself from doing something wrong. And you can't afford to do something wrong. So you're always on the defense. You're always, you know, making sure that you don't do something which is gonna cause problems. You're always looking out for what could go wrong.

Joe 56:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:26

And when you're always looking out for what can go wrong, you never want to take risks.

Joe 56:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:33

That's not very helpful in your personal life. Okay. It actually was very helpful in the legal practice.

Joe 56:39

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 56:40

But it's not very practical or or very helpful in in day-to-day living and in recovery.

Netanya 56:48

How are you at taking risks today?

Joe 56:55

I've never really processed that one. I'm I'm sure I'm a little bit better. Um I'm gonna have to think about that one.

Netanya 57:13

Take a rain check.

SPEAKER_03 57:14

Yeah, yeah. I d I don't know. Uh I I know that there's still a self-defense mechanism built inside of me. And I'm always, you know, when something occurs, I'm always like, okay, what how do I keep this from hurting?

unknown 57:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:30

Uh that that always hits immediately. And I got it's not, I don't know if it's walls. It's like there's there's a wall that can get built real quick if I need it. And and and someone says something that wants to put me on the defensive, and immediately I'll say, pause. That pause, which we we talk is a real good thing before you say something, you'll do but that's when I say, okay, someone has just offended me. Well, how am I going to respond? Or am I going to respond at all? And and that's when you kind of uh my the pro I get in problems when I when I react too quickly.

Netanya 58:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:07

And so if I can find a way to just not jump to conclusions and jump to a reaction, that really is helpful. Um so I think I don't know if it was taking risks or just reacting too quickly all the time was

Overcoming perfectionism and practicing grace

SPEAKER_03 58:23

was always a problem.

Netanya 58:24

Aaron Ross Powell Well, I think when you if most of us you you're built into reaction. Reaction is the first thing that happens. And even as adults, reaction is a it's like a chemical mechanism, right? It happens whether you can help it or not. But the pause is how you give yourself room and then you're able to respond instead of reacting.

Joe 58:44

Right.

Netanya 58:44

And so someone told me this once and I loved it, was that like your first response is usually a reaction, but it's the second one that matters. Right? Because you still have the old programming. You're still running a I like to get my mom as a computer programmer, so I like to use old computer language, like you're still running a DOS system and you're, you know, it's still there, you know, and you can update it as much as you want, but that old system still exists.

SPEAKER_03 59:09

But I think the key is don't that that first reaction, don't do it.

Netanya 59:13

Right. And that's the thing is like if you the pause is when you get to the second reaction. And in the second reaction, life's choice. And then you choose, and you're standing from an empowered place of how do I want to move from here? Which is a response as opposed to a reaction.

SPEAKER_03 59:30

And you don't step in your own dude.

Netanya 59:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:32

Mm-hmm.

Netanya 59:33

Yeah. Uh what is your experience like internally, or do you have an experience of calm versus chaos? Do you have both? Do you tend towards one or the other? What is that kind of like for you, or how has that been over time?

SPEAKER_03 59:50

Over time it's shifted from chaos to calm. And I'm I'm uh 90% more calm now than I was when I first got in the program.

Joe 1:00:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:03

And and and uh and and I know that because I do have some more a lot more serenity about things than I used to. Five years ago, I was I got a phone call from the doctor who said I had a form of cancer. It's curable, but um it's but but still when you hear you have cancer, it's frightening. And I recall I didn't freak out. I I didn't react. I my uh the phone call came in, and and after I was told that, I said, okay, what what's the next steps? Immediately. Um I was immediately after, you know, what are our possible solutions? What do I need to do?

Netanya 1:00:40

You trying to solve the problem.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:41

Well, no, I'd I'd ask for what the solutions are. Got it. I wasn't solving the problem myself. I was kind of aware that there are solutions, but I wasn't sure what was suggested. Now, fortunately, I've uh that's that situation is hopefully behind me. But that that was uh I was amazed when I looked back on it, I said, how calmly I handled that conversation when it came in. I accepted it. It comes down to the word acceptance on some of that. I accepted the fact, okay, this is what this is what's happened. Now what am I gonna do about it? That's a that's a great one to use with with pe other people that you're talking to, sponsees in particular, who who are looking to you to for for guidance, and they come up with some problem and they keep on you know saying, I got this problem and this problem. The response is, what are you gonna do about it?

unknown 1:01:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:36

And instead of just y yapping about it and complaining and whining about it and and delving in self-pity, oh, we all deal deal with self-pity. That's a wonderful, d wonderful defect of characters.

Netanya 1:01:47

What is your what do you think the relationship is between surrender and acceptance?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:53

They're very similar. Mm-hmm. They are. Yeah. Um in order to accept something, quite often you have to surrender that you do not you have

Reacting, responding, and the power of pause

SPEAKER_03 1:02:04

to surrender that you can't do anything yourself to fix that particular situation. But that also comes down to the the the serenity prayer where you have to have the courage to change the things you can.

Joe 1:02:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:18

So you have to do s if you can do something, do it first before you before you turn over the results saying I have no control over what happens now.

Joe 1:02:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:29

And be being a lawyer, I yeah, I would argue a case in front of a judge, and if I whether I did a good job or not when I was through, I'd done all I could. I have no idea what the judge is going to decide. It's you know, I was out of my control. And I got real comfortable with that. That's really not as first. Oh, when I would lose something, I would I would I would be a a mess. Uh but but you know, before I retired, it lasts 10 or 15 years, I just said I I might win, I might lose. I have no control over it. I've as long as I've done what I could to present the case as best I could.

Netanya 1:03:02

Well, and I like what you said there because I think sometimes a misconception that can happen is when we're talking about surrender, sometimes people will use it to like opt out of action. Right? Like I'm just gonna surrender and let go of everything and then not face my life or move forward or make choices because I'm surrendering.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:22

That gets down to powerless. I don't think anybody is totally powerless. Okay. That that quite often they can change something. Sometimes it's just changing your perspective. It's just changing your attitude towards something uh or or or the way you look at something, and it changes everything. Uh you drive down the road and somebody cuts you off. Well, you know, you can get mad, or you can say, that guy's probably having a bad day. Or else he's on the way to the hospital because his wife is his wife is, you know, delivering a baby. Who knows? You know, so so you know, just because someone makes you mad doesn't mean you understand what's going on with them. And I I've I've begun to really learn that, uh, not all the time. But when when other people are being ugly and I would I would tend to get angry with them or resentful toward them, I just think to myself, they're not having a good day.

unknown 1:04:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:16

Whatever they're going through is probably worse than anything I'm going through today.

Netanya 1:04:21

And I have one last question for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:23

Uh oh.

Netanya 1:04:25

Anyone listening to this, this conversation, if you could give anyone listening permission to do anything after listening to what we just talked about, what would you give them permission to do?

Joe 1:04:38

Pause. I'll think about that for

Calm versus chaos and handling life's challenges

Joe 1:04:41

a second.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:44

I think it's probably okay not to totally try to control everything in your life and not try to manipulate everything that goes on. It's okay if things happen on their own without you running the ship. I I've learned that over time. Uh I was president of an of a national organization for a while, and I did all sorts of things as president. Well, you know, in a matter of three years after I was out, they changed everything and nothing was the same. And I got to realize, you know, that's okay. I got to realize I have no control over that. And instead of trying to raise Kane about the fact that they're changing all these wonderful things that I had put into put into practice, uh I just said, I have no control over that. Um but but it's okay not to try to control everything going on around you. Let things happen. And who knows, sometimes it turns out a lot better than if I'm manipulating them. In fact, most of the time it does go better if I'm not trying to manipulate them.

Netanya 1:05:55

I agree. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:59

Well, thank you.

Netanya 1:06:02

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