EP50: Getting a PhD in Me | Codependency, Boundaries, and Becoming — Netanya Interviewed by Reed Hendricks

What does it actually cost to dismantle the life you knew and rebuild yourself from the ground up?

When I share how I’ve changed my life, it comes from knowing what it feels like to be completely broken and lost—and choosing, day after day, to pick myself up off the kitchen floor and rewrite who I am. I share this story to give that journey a voice, and in doing so, give you permission to do the same.

In this deeply personal 50th episode, I'm stepping into the guest seat on my own podcast to reflect on five and a half years of sobriety, letting go of codependency, and the work of rebuilding. Joined by my friend Reed Hendricks, we unpack releasing fear, healing old wounds, and what it really took to transition from total self-abandonment to learning how to receive true self-worth.

Three big shifts we explore in this conversation:

• Getting a "PhD in Me": Confronting my past, practicing letting go of control, and shifting from surviving to intentionally designing a life I love.
• The "Nice" Mask vs. True Boundaries: Why being "nice" was often just a tool for people-pleasing, and how learning to say "no" transformed my relationships.
• Consulting My Future Self: The daily practice of making choices based on the brave, evolved version of who I am becoming—rather than the fear-based habits of who I used to be.

At the heart of our conversation is a reminder: "How incredible of an opportunity it is to be so available for your own evolution." From an emotional letter to my six-year-old self to navigating the messy process of teaching people how to treat me, this episode is a raw, unfiltered look at grace, growth, and stepping into your power.

Full episode and show notes: netanyaallyson.com/episodes/50

Transcript

Reflecting on Long-Term Sobriety

Netanya 0:08

This podcast is about those moments. It's about the training points that the things I wish someone had told me that I only understand and look at. Come on in, people on here, and we're gonna talk about all of it. I'm your host Natanya, and that is what I didn't know. Before we begin, a quick note. This podcast explores themes such as mental health, addiction, trauma, and recovery. While the stories here are honest and heartfelt, they're not a substitute for professional advice, therapy, or medical treatment. Please listen with care and pause anytime you need to. Take whatever resonates for you and leave the rest. All right. Today is a really special episode for me. This is episode 50. When I started this podcast, I don't know if I knew that I would make it this far. I just kind of put one foot in front of the other and figured I would see where it went. So I want to take a pause and celebrate that today. Because it's episode 50, we are turning the tables. I'm stepping into the guest seat, and my friend Reed Hendricks is taking over as host to interview me. We didn't prep any of the questions ahead of time. I didn't know what we were going to talk about. We just sat down, hit record, and dove straight into the deep end. In this episode, we get into why being nice is just people pleasing and how real boundaries change everything, how I make choices based on the woman I want to keep becoming, not the fear that holds me back, and how I keep practicing confronting my past, letting go of control, and intentionally building a life I love. Lastly, I want to say this: none of the growth that I have experienced or the good things that have happened in my life were on my own. Every step forward is thanks to the people who paved the way before me. And every time I've stumbled, someone was there to help me get back up. I am deeply grateful for everyone who came before me and everyone who walks alongside me today. I know that I'm just one small part of a much bigger story. And I have never built anything alone.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

How long have you been cleaned?

Netanya 2:16

Uh, five and a half years. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Wow.

Netanya 2:20

Yeah. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

It is crazy. That's huge.

Netanya 2:24

Do you ever think about that? Like, I don't I don't spend that much time in reverse.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

It's interesting you said that. And I will allow this question since I am the interviewer this time, but I'm a guest in your home and your podcast. Just for the public, she just got up off the couch. To answer that question, do I think about it?

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

I have not had I have not thought about that in the longest time. And I can't remember if it was Zoe or Charlotte. We have some friends back home and they they know about my story. And um I think it was Zoe because Zoe came here for the eight-year celebration. And um she mentioned that to the family that we're we're close with. And I she said that when she said I went to my dad's eight-year celebration, the dad got super choked up. And and she was like, uh, are you okay? And he's like, I'm just so proud of him. Like eight years of doing absolutely nothing. I can't fathom that. And then I started to think about it. I don't know if it you just I don't want to say complacency because that's a scary place for me. But like yourself, I don't I don't really think about what I've accomplished because I seem to be so singularly focused on going forward.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

And I I think that's a thing that you and I could both do better at, not reliving the shit, but taking a moment like that's a big fucking

Valuing the Present and Self-Recognition

SPEAKER_01 4:10

deal.

Netanya 4:10

It's huge.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Huge. Yeah. Huge.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

All right, are you ready to dive into some stuff? Yeah. Um I'm honored to. Please remember you just said that. Do you remember what you just said?

Netanya 4:25

Where are we going?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Please remember that. Okay. We're gonna circle back, people. There's no fucking coincidences. Oh my gosh. You just made this whole moment just even better than it already is with a single sentence. God, so many, so many good things.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Well, I'm gonna start off because this question is seems to be relevant.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

This is the only version of you that I know. I don't know the past. What do you value most now as opposed to what you valued most 10 years ago?

Netanya 5:07

Oh, God. That's a great question. Don't smirk like you know, like you know, you asked me.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

No, no, I thought it was a happy smile. I wasn't a smirk, it might have been a smirk.

Netanya 5:22

Say it again. What do I value most?

SPEAKER_01 5:23

What what this is the only version of you that I know. So I have an idea of this, but what do you value most today as opposed to what you valued most 10 years ago?

SPEAKER_02 5:38

I think the thing I value the most now is me. Whoa. I did not I did not for a very long time. I don't think I knew that I didn't.

Netanya 5:52

But I was so floundering and lost and codependent and drowning in everything that I didn't know how to evaluate me. And no one, I don't think anyone had taught me what that meant or what that looked like. And it didn't mean I didn't have great people in my life, but to really, really

Getting a PhD in Me: Self-Discovery and Healing

Netanya 6:11

understand, I think, you know, I I always I talk about getting a divorce, and at that time I was not in recovery. And then a couple years later I I tackled the recovery piece of that and really asked myself some big questions, right? That who do I want to be and what do you want to do with this? Like, while did you know that?

SPEAKER_01 6:32

When did you ask those questions?

Netanya 6:33

Yeah. Like early in recovery or when you were still using I think when I was still using because I was so broken at that point and it wasn't working, that there was a freedom for me in the severance of that marriage, that that was the beginning of who do you want to be? And I was not yet at the point where I could acknowledge the alcohol problem. But after that, this occurred to me just the other day, actually. I think unintentionally, what I did was I went and got a PhD in me. And I learned and I got curious. And how did I get here? And what are these wounds and where did they come from? And what do I make them mean? And how am I still carrying many things that some of which were mine, some of which were not mine, that I took on. Um, and a lot of that was Was this in NA university or was this prior to it started, I started at the point of the kitchen floor when I was still when I decided I was gonna get divorced because I was already in therapy at that point in time, and I had I was doing research on codependency, and that was I was still drinking very heavily through that.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Kitchen floor like metaphorically. No, literally.

Netanya 7:48

Um I I talk about this frequently. It's uh it's just like the aha moment that I had, which is I found myself on a kitchen floor with a bottle of Jack Daniels and an Oracle deck, and my marriage was ending, and it was my choice. And I it was like the moment I realized I'm gonna leave.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

You know, but I think That's amazing clarity to come out of that particular scenario. Really? I'm not suggesting anybody tries it. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

No.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

What kind of wounds were you experiencing to have be in that scenario on the kitchen floor and decide that this particular scenario is enough?

Netanya 8:24

You know, I thought I try to explain this occasionally, and I I don't know that it ever really lands because I I I very much mean what I'm about to say. And I I had an awareness, and you can call it intuition or God or spirit or whatever, um, on that floor, and I was very aware that I was dying. And I am not talking about suicide, and I'm not talking about physical, I was fine. But I was just acutely aware that my essence was leaving me, it had been leaving me, and it was going to keep leaving me if I didn't do something about that. And it's interesting to say that because when I say it's not suicide, that feels important because that's its own experience for people, and that's not the same. But the awareness of like, I'm leaving, and that's not gonna be how the story ends. And I don't even know how to do anything about that. I just know I'm not gonna stay here. But so I got to work and I it was messy, and you know, I did all the human things, like you have to go find a lawyer, and I moved back in with my mom in my childhood bedroom, you know, at 30 some years old. And um, but I think to go, I just was like, I'm I'm not okay. I don't know how I got here. I'm smart and educated and I have a good family. How do I get to be better? And how do I not repeat all of this? And so when I say I got a PhD in me, I learned about me. How do I function? What are my responses? What are my coping mechanisms aside from just substances? Because I have other ones. And then what do I want to do with that? How do you have enough self-awareness to recognize, like, oh, there comes that again, you know? And so when you to go back to your original question of what I value when I say me, I built this version of me on purpose. And it even me saying that, the old version of me would have hidden in a corner at the thought of owning that I'm somehow cocky or arrogant or who am I to say something like that. But it's true. And I did not do that alone. But in terms of when you think of a degree and you the hours that you spend researching and writing and assessing and analyzing, and in, you know, I think of like in internships and in cornerstone projects where you're really in the meat of something. Like that's that's what I did with my life. And so today, you know, I I value my time. I value who I share it with, who I let into this space, who I um, who I date, who I spend time with in my family, where and also the opposite, like where I cut boundaries and just like, you know what, I'm not up for this anymore, and we'll walk away.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

It um you said a very interesting comment. It costs a lot of money to acquire a PhD. Yeah. What did it cost you to get your PhD in you?

Netanya 11:33

I think it costs me. It cost me the the great attachment I had to who I used to be, all of which was sourced in fear. You know, and whether it's I think most of

The Cost of Transformation and Letting Go

Netanya 11:50

us have the same basic wounds, which is I'm not enough, I'm too much, I just want to be loved, and I just want to be safe. And I had to let go of things that I had learned about myself that I fought so hard to keep, right? That identity of who I was, the life that I had built, you know, I actively participated in every decision that got me to that kitchen floor. Nobody made me do that. I chose the person I married, I chose where I lived, I chose my jobs, I chose, you know, I chose all of that. And then I chose how I functioned inside of that. And not to say that didn't come from many wounds that I was bouncing off of, kind of like a pinball machine, but they weren't, they were choices that I made.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

And so I think it really cost me I had to let go of everything I knew.

Netanya 12:45

And that's really scary. It cost me my safety, my certainty, my you know, perceived stability, a framework of who I thought that I was and what my life was. I had to be willing to throw that in the garbage and say, okay, now what? And I did not have an answer. And even with the the inklings that I might have had, I didn't have a clue how I was gonna get there. You know, that other version of me, how do you get there? I'm a fucking mess.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Were.

Netanya 13:20

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like her in that space. No idea how to get there. But it had to cost me, I think, my willingness of everything I just said. I had to be willing to be in the unknown.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

So all of the cost associated with becoming this version of you at this parti today, is that debt settled? Or are you still maybe not maybe that's not the right terminology. I'm gonna rephrase that.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Because that's a cost. And I I have seen the return on your investment personally. Well, uh in in all of our discussions. And so what's it feel like

Investing in Yourself and Self-Compassion

SPEAKER_01 14:06

to now invest in yourself rather than have that cost of what you paid to get here? Because all of the tools that we are both learning, you know, I'm gonna be very judgmental. I see you putting them into your life. So what's it feel like now to invest in this version of you that you did not invest in prior to coming in?

Netanya 14:32

Oh, I have two parts to that, and they're not the same thing. One of them, the first thing is it makes me sad. I have a sadness around that girl on the floor. And even more than her, I remember when I was on the floor saying out loud, I'm so sorry. And I was not sorry about my divorce. And I was not sorry about that choice. The person I was apologizing to was me because I left me. I completely abandoned me in that time and I didn't know. And so I was devastatingly heartbroken for that little six-year-old that I left. And I so I have I have sadness around. I think that perceived time that I wasted, which I genuinely I don't think. I think I walked through things I needed to learn to become who I am. But it's sad, right? I think when you think of the what could have, what could have been different if I didn't spend all that time there, I think that's a valid space to be in. And then the other aspect is it feels incredible. It's one of the best feelings I have ever had in my entire life, which is so empowering to invest in this now because I'm investing in me constantly. I mean, whether it's at work or at a meeting or just in a conversation with a friend, um, talking through things that that's been a big thing for me has been my voice. I hid behind closed curtains for years and I didn't speak. And I mean that like I didn't speak to the person I was married to to acknowledge or own what the my version of that experience was because I was terrified. I didn't tell friends or family what I was going through. I hid and lied about using. And so a big muscle that I have built and a big underlying current of this experience has been telling the truth. And that means to me too. But I'm constantly talking and speaking and coaching and learning, you know, and I I find it to be incredibly important to me that I am both forever a teacher and a student. I still have things to learn. I'm

Message to my Six-Year-Old Self

Netanya 17:00

always gonna have things to learn, and I can learn as much from a CEO as I can an intern. So that investment is ongoing. I'm investing if I'm in line at the coffee shop.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

By the way, I'm just writing notes. When you say certain things.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

Those are two great answers. For I thought they were. Okay, ready for this? Yeah. You mentioned something earlier. So before I asked the question, we live in a world of five-minute chairs.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

You have four minutes to speak, one minute to wind down. So my ask of you right now.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

You have five You have five minutes to talk to that six-year-old girl.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

So what would you say to her today, knowing what you know?

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Man, you really went for it. You know, I'm so sorry. And I love you so much.

Netanya 18:14

And I think you walked into a world that was messy by no fault of your own, and got handed over back and forth quite literally from different sets of parents and siblings, and a world that was already moving, and you had to find a way to fit into more than one life at six years old. And that's a hard thing to give a six-year-old. And then when you have adults in your life who are who don't know what they don't know and have their own wounds, and are fumbling around in the dark, trying their best to figure out themselves and also care for you, I think you looked around and somehow in there saw people that maybe weren't making the best decisions. And so then you thought, I'm gonna do it for them. And I I think there's a beauty to that gift of kindness of wanting to give.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

There's a beauty of that. Damn it, Reed. She's right in front of me. I know. But that you don't have to do that anymore.

Netanya 19:32

That you don't have to do that anymore. That's my job. It's my job as an adult to navigate things and that you don't have to try to grip so hard to control everything.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

To be safe. You can set that down and go back to playing the sandbox, which is what you should have been doing.

Netanya 19:57

And that spoiler alert, you got really awesome when you got older. And after going through a really big roller coaster, you picked yourself up and said, Who do I want to be? And then you went and did it. About 15 different ways in all areas of your life, which is really incredible. And that that version of you that lives today.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Damn, I'm proud of her.

Netanya 20:34

Because she became great. And greatness isn't about being the best at things or knowing all the answers. It's about living into yourself and saying yes to who you are. It's about asking for help and saying when you're wrong. It's about telling the truth and being kind. And about dreaming bigger than you ever could because who says you can't? And then taking steps actively towards all those things. And that, you know, you have all these beliefs that you learned about who you were, what you were capable of, and what the world could be for you. And you believe them and function by that for a really long time until you asked a bigger question. And the bigger question was, is that true? And do I want it to be? And somewhere in there, you started to find your own answers. And you went from reacting to choosing how you want to move forward and things. And it feels a little scary. It feels scary sometimes to be that emboldened to tell the truth. It feels scary to set boundaries and say no when something's not okay with you because someone might not like you. And the beauty is that the version of you that you became is okay with that. You know, there's a song, it was my favorite song for years. Um it's by the Google Dolls. It's called Iris. And my favorite line from that song is I don't want the world to see me. Because I don't think that they'd understand when everything's made to be broken. I just want you to know who I am. And it took me many years to understand that why I was so attached to that was because I just wanted to be seen and loved for who I was, which is not, you know, an unusual story for a teenager. But I I was so attached to that for so long that I I functioned by it. What do other people think? There is a people-pleasing aspect to that. When you want to be loved and you want to know that you're enough and not too much, and so to become the version of you that is okay if people don't love you or that you're too much or not enough for some people, and to trust really deeply that everyone that surrounds you that really wants to be next to you, that it's an honor to walk next to you these days. And that anyone that wants to be here and understands that it's a really beautiful gift, and they would choose to be nowhere else.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

You were right that that uh she does grow up to be pretty awesome. Do you think for a second I was gonna let you segue into having a conversation with me in that moment? No, ma'am. No, ma'am. Okay. Damn. Here is um here we go.

Netanya 23:55

God, I didn't think I was gonna cry, I'll give you that.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

That's okay. Expand on this for me, or in any way that you see fit, based on the beautiful answer conversation that you just had with six-year-old you. What a privilege it is to grow into someone I used to need.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Yes. No. Yeah.

Netanya 24:35

You know, I think people will talk about reparenting yourself. And the hard part of that is the underlying suggestion that your parents failed or didn't do a good job, and that's not true. But I do think I think all parents fail.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Inevitably. I We know I did.

Netanya 24:56

But I just mean I I don't think I think the only way to really truly fail is to not care or not try. Right. And that the rest of the time you're still learning and trying to figure that out. And is this the right thing or is that the right thing? And you can try this thing with one daughter and this thing with the other and have different responses. Um and I think that parents do the best they can with what they have. And I think mine did that also. And there were things that they didn't know I needed or or feeling or perceiving, because I'm also not them. And I think we have that too. We we think self-centeredly, I am the center of my universe. So the way I hear something or see something or interpret something, we think that other people have the same lens. Like, did you say that? I saw that,

The Role of Boundaries and Saying No

Netanya 25:48

you know. And sometimes people do, but there's a lot of people, whether it's culturally or just, you know, do an enneogram. We're all like I'm different than my mom, than my sister. How we're picking up what we're feeling or sensing is different. So you can only extend that to teaching so far. And so I think um what was the main part of the question? How do I feel about it? I think it's a beautiful gift. And I think, you know, I've I've also done a lot of work on those people that did come before me where I felt things were missed or caused harm and done a lot of forgiveness around that. And that's not easy. Because forgiveness is for the forgiver. It's for you. And I think a lot of people misconstrue that to think that forgiveness means letting people off the hook. And that doesn't mean it's okay. It just means I'm not gonna let this have power over me anymore. Love that.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

All right. I'm gonna give you another thing to think about. And don't spout your answer off right away. Okay. Okay? You know the old adage like tomorrow never gets here because it's always today, whatever. So ign ignore that. And I want you to think about this and tell me how you see it and why.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Is is each day to you meaning tomorrow one day more or one day less and why. Is each day one day more? Or one day less?

Netanya 27:44

Man, I could argue that both ways.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

I think go ahead.

Netanya 27:51

I think just in general more feels like abundance. There's plenty, there's extra, there's you know, a plethora of something, and less feels like it comes from scarcity. And so if I had to pick one way to argue that, I think I think I would say the way I view the world generally is one day more. And it's it's it almost feels like a little kid, like curious, like, oh, we get to do this again.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Yeah.

Netanya 28:19

What happens today? I'm so curious.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

You know, like what are we gonna do?

Netanya 28:23

Oh my gosh, and like, oh, I ended up over here, took that road, didn't I, you know, like it's a very playful way of of living. Whereas I think one day less um feels like I'm running out of time. And not that I haven't felt that occasionally, but I just I think the way I generally view the world is from a place of opportunity. I get to be here and I get to have these problems, and I get to learn and grow and change, and parts of me get to die.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Um how do you feel about that? Which part what parts of you get to die and and like expand on that, please. I think that's fascinating.

Netanya 29:10

I think the parts of me that no longer serve me or the parts of me that I thought that I needed and I really don't you know, like I talked to that little Tanya. Her name was my my family called me Tanya when I was little. So when I talked to my six-year-old, her name is Tanya.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

Um that like you don't have to keep trying to control is a big thing for me.

Netanya 29:39

And it's funny.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

What you didn't see my questions, did you?

SPEAKER_02 29:46

No.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Okay, please go on. Um before you answer that, Natanya.

Authentic Service and Giving Back

SPEAKER_01 29:54

In your life today, in in your everyday living, what has been a struggle for you to grow into?

Netanya 30:04

Yeah, control.

SPEAKER_01 30:05

Okay, please expand on that.

Netanya 30:07

It's a dance. Control is the opposite of trust. And so I've had to look that's there's a lot underneath those two things of where I thought for a long time that I didn't trust other people. And what I realized was that I really didn't trust me because of that, because I left me once. How can I trust me? To to make good choices for me again. And so when you don't trust yourself or people or that the world is unfolding on your behalf and that you're divinely supported, you try to control because it makes you feel safe.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

So I try to grip things and manage things and did you did you try to keep friendships because even unhealthier toxic ones because you you needed the people around you?

Netanya 30:58

Um No. And the answer is because I didn't have a lot of friendships. Because I isolated so hard, and my only friend was my ex-husband.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Wow.

Netanya 31:08

And that doesn't mean I didn't love people. It just means I really did not go out of my way to spend time to keep those people up. And the ones that are still in my life weren't unhealthy. I just didn't let them in.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

How about now?

Netanya 31:24

Now, you know what's the most interesting thing about this experience? For so long, the story I told myself was I don't like people. I don't like people. I don't like seeing people at the grocery store I know. I don't want to talk to you about small talk, I don't want to tell you how my day is, I don't want to run into anybody I know, I don't want to go to social events. I I carried that for so long. Biggest load of bullshit I have ever heard because I really enjoy people greatly. And I don't love everybody all the time, but it's funny how when you don't hate yourself and you don't hate your life, that is completely turned around. Because now I'm so excited if I run with somebody at the grocery store and I'm like, what are you doing? How are you? And I love like my favorite parts of meetings are before and after when I get to talk to people. I run events for a living and I volunteer to run events in my free time, which is all about people.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Well, I can echo that sentiment in you because I know, like myself, you are you know, 9 30 at night, you're like, holy shit, what am I doing up so late? And and there have been occasions where we fellowship and go out to eat at about nine o'clock and you power through. I mean, what else I love is the fact that when you're done, you're done. You're in no hard feelings. No, I don't know why I'm yelling at this second. So I d I think I admire that.

Netanya 32:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

I admire that.

Netanya 32:58

And even I mean, even this podcast, I created voluntarily a platform in which the sole purpose is to talk to other people.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Yeah.

Netanya 33:06

You know, and I've I've loved that. I've loved witnessing where people are and how can I how can I give just what I've learned along the way away for free to try to help you and not to do it for you, but like here's this thing that I learned and it might help you too, is such a gift. And all of that is based in people. But I I did not think that that was true for a really long time. I used to hide in grocery stores. Hide. Mm-hmm. I would see like if I saw somebody I knew coming to.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Oh, okay, okay.

Netanya 33:41

I would like duck around the corner and hide and pretend I didn't see you or whatever, so that I didn't have to talk to anybody. Wow. Yeah. And actually, the first time that I realized that that was maybe not true anymore, I lived in Colorado and I was new to Colorado, but I was in the grocery store and new enough that I I mean new people. So not super new. And it's a very small town. So you run into people at the grocery store all the time. And I ran into someone and sat and had like a, you know, five-minute conversation voluntarily and walked out of the store and realized what I had done that like I didn't hide and I wanted to be there and I really enjoyed it. I was like, huh.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

You might not be the same. That's really cool. Why is it so important to you today to show up? Because we've I mean, I met you 4th of July.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

We both showed up to support. I don't know how long you knew our friend before we got there. And I don't believe you knew anybody else who was going to be there. No. And I didn't know anybody but him.

SPEAKER_02 34:55

And what made you show up and why was that important to you?

Netanya 35:02

You know, I think we talk a lot about service and giving back. And one of the things I struggled with in the beginning was that service equaled doing something I didn't want to do or something that cost me greatly, that I had to suffer through in order to give back to say thank you for things that had been given to me.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

That's interesting. You had to suffer wow.

Netanya 35:25

Mm-hmm. That that was what service was. I had to, there were certain expectations around what you do that counts as service. And if I that I had to do those things or not that I wasn't, quote, of service. And so it's been a great joy of mine to like it's by far one of my greatest joys in this experience has been building recovery the way that it works for me. And what does that mean? And one of the aspects of that has been rewriting what service means and throwing out the notion that service means I have to do anything that I don't want to do or that doesn't light me up.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

It's so great. I'm so glad that was recorded because I'm gonna, I'm gonna listen to that again.

Netanya 36:09

And so one of the things I genuinely like to do and am good at is running events. That's why I do it for work, right? Um and I maybe won't do it forever, but it's easy for me. It's not, it's not stressful, it's fun. I can just delegate and get things done and you know, and it's it's fun. And I and I get to be at the thing that I wanted to go at and connect with people in the process of helping, and then we create something really cool.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Oh we yes. Being a part of that, and I I'm not gonna speak for you, but I feel like your answer is similar. After the first time that we did that, I could not wait to do this event again, and it was even better this year.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

And I hope I hope he does that every year.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Because that is. Or is it just a step back to say, wow, I had an opportunity to be a part of putting this thing together? Because I know how I used to be.

Netanya 37:28

Uh-huh. How did you used to be?

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Oh, I'd I would want everyone to know that I was the first one here and I worked so hard and because I was an egotistical dick who was afraid of everything.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

And now no. And it's a work in progress.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

But would that have been the old you? Or or because I don't see you as a grandstanding type of person. And believe me, it's not that I want to know ten year ago, ten year ago, Natanya. I'm just curious if if ever ego was a thing for you in order to get validation.

Netanya 38:09

Oh my God. Yes. I don't think I agree with you. I don't know that I would have grandstanded like I don't think I was a grandstander in terms of that, but yeah, making sure somehow people knew I would want everyone I would want everyone to know. Not credit.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Yeah, yeah.

Netanya 38:25

For the thing that I did. Yeah. And now I will say I do talk about it now, but it's for a different reason. It's not about credit as much as it is the story I'm telling, or this was so much fun, or I'm hot because I've been here since 7 a.m. or you know, but it's not it the source of it is what's different. It's not to get credit of like how great I

The Evolution of Ego and Validation

Netanya 38:48

am.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Yeah.

Netanya 38:49

Um, because I know that there's plenty of people that do other things that are nothing like this, that do other things that I don't want to do.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Yeah.

Netanya 38:56

You know, that are quieter or different, or so it's not that I think the way I serve is any better or worse, or that I need validation for it as much as it is like, isn't this great that we're doing this then? You know?

SPEAKER_01 39:13

To me, I think showing up and seeing you roll up, that's my and and the people, the other people that were there are like, how great is this that we get to put this together? And a lot of that also the reminder of how important that is is also in the person who made this happen.

SPEAKER_00 39:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:35

I have never seen him grandstand. It is always, hey, everybody, we are doing the or or not even, just come down, there's an event. It's uh his autograph is on nothing, but his presence to me personally is like shit, man. I can I can still learn a lot from the way he lives his life, which is very cool.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Yeah. What is it like for you today as opposed to your earlier self to say no? I love this question.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

So I'm not the first one that asked it?

SPEAKER_02 40:17

No, you I no, you are.

Netanya 40:19

I just mean I love I love boundaries and I love talking about saying no.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Well, did you have them?

Netanya 40:24

No.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Slow your roll. Go ahead.

Netanya 40:31

I didn't know what they were. No, I didn't have anything. I was, I think I didn't have any kind of backbone or any, like I said, back to the voice thing, and I was a doormat. It was like any anything that and especially codependency, if you don't know anything about it, there's an aspect of it where you take on someone else's feelings. So if you if I'm codependent with you and you're upset, I'm upset. And it feels like it's mine. And so when that happens and the person that you are codependent with is your husband, and he's always not okay, I'm always not okay. And I can't tell the difference between me and you. And so I'm constantly trying to fix that so I feel better. It's actually about me. And so when that's the thing and you're running around, I used to say it's kind of like someone's like dropping MMs from the ceiling and you're trying to run around and catch all of them before they touch the floor. It's a great metaphor.

unknown 41:33

Thank you.

Netanya 41:33

That's what it felt like, you know. It's about MMs. Yeah. And you don't say no. I don't have time to say no. I I had a really big identity for a long time around being nice. I wanted to be the nice girl. And so much so that I can remember being in high school trying on personas of like different cliques or what I wore or whatever, because I was trying to fit in, right? You're just searching, like, is this me? And one of the things I settled on, I remember, was that being nice got me places. People liked the nice girl. And so I I wore that around and took that with me. And people liked me and I belonged. Um, now it was completely inauthentic to most of who I am, but I belonged, you know. And I think I learned that and I did that in every area of my life when I, you know, took on a lot of that instead of asking myself, what do I want to do? But just all the ways and all the times that I didn't say no or didn't question, like, is this what I even want? And so boundaries have been a great love of mine in recent years. It is incredibly uncomfortable. But I have I don't think there's anywhere in my life that I have seen more benefit, like tangible benefit, than practicing boundaries. And that my success in that is greatly proportionate to my willingness to be uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 43:09

That's that's

Practicing Boundaries and Discerning Relationships

SPEAKER_02 43:11

outstanding.

Netanya 43:12

And so that practice of I mean, I and I now do it at work and I now, you know, I'll do it in relationships, I'll do it dating, I'll do it in home and family. And the cool thing is when you start to become a person, again, at first you sort of shake people up because they don't know what to do with that because you changed the dance. You've been doing the mambo with them for 20 years, and suddenly you start doing the salsa and they don't know what to do. Like, what do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Yeah.

Netanya 43:41

Who are you?

SPEAKER_01 43:42

You've changed.

Netanya 43:43

Yeah. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

Fuck yes, I have.

Netanya 43:46

Yeah. So it's there's a um a messiness to that part of it where you you are uncomfortable. I did change. I know that you have this expectation of me, and I'm not gonna meet it. And you don't like that.

SPEAKER_01 43:59

Yeah. You know Yeah. This is this is me pivoting.

Netanya 44:04

Yeah. But the cool thing is that when I started to do it, some things fell away, other things just changed. And I had some conversations. I said cool conversations, like with people that stayed and are still here. It's a really great conversation because they were able to be with it and see it and honor it and respect it and then move forward with like this is this is where I'm gonna say yes now and say no. And all those people are still my life. But now it's the thing is once you practice it, it's just like anything, it becomes normal. So that that saying you teach people how to treat you, I didn't like for a long time because I didn't understand why people treated me like shit.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

What you will tolerate from Yeah.

Netanya 44:50

And so now most people like you said, you are a perfect example. What you said earlier, when I go out to dinner or whatever and it's late when I'm done, I'm done. It's not personal. I'm not mad at anybody. No. I'm just I'm done.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Yeah. Yeah.

Netanya 45:05

And it's just that's a boundary of I stayed past what I would prefer to do and be out late at night because I value you and I want to spend time with you and give and be a part of this community, and that has a limit to it.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Yeah. And you just saw it. You brought up a word before that um I can identify with for wanting, I wanted to be nice. I wanted to be the nicest guy. That's what I wanted to be known as. And I have come to learn that nice for me personally was a mask, was an opportunity to be dishonest and to manipulate. And there's nothing wrong with being nice. I'm talking about how I used nice.

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

I prefer to be kind.

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

And my kindness means that if if I see someone I love and trust doing something that doesn't isn't a good look, and they ask me about it, I'm going to tell them because I love them. If you were to if you were to do that, like, Natanya, I love you, but hey, can we talk about that? That to me is kind. That's the friend that I want to be. And vice versa. I would want somebody to call I love when the people that love me call me out on my shit.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

I don't get so mad. It stings a little bit because they're right, and now I get the opportunity to address it. So kind is is a goal. I'm I'm still nice, but I'm nice in an altruistic way. Yeah. I'm not attaching a bill to my behavior that I'm gonna make, you know, they're gonna make you pay for later on, so to speak.

Netanya 46:51

Well, and the nice guy, tell me if I'm wrong. Like in the example you use where you you say, hey Natania, like that's not okay. That's the kindness in you.

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Yeah.

Netanya 47:00

The nice guy doesn't speak.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

No. Cosigns your bullshit.

Netanya 47:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

Um and I did. For far too long.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

And and I there are there were moments in my life where I was told, you you've changed. And it was beautiful to hear. It's okay for me to lose people in my life. It's not okay for me to lose myself to a hang on to something that doesn't suit me anymore.

Netanya 47:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Unlike you, I never wanted to lose anybody because I'm gonna amass.

Netanya 47:36

But it's tell me if this has been your experience. When when I finally started to do that, and I did start to lose people, but I was really honoring myself, the the like pedestal those people

Valuing Time and Relationships

Netanya 47:52

were on, or the space that they took up in my life and my brain suddenly went away. Meaning I did like the people that I started losing, I did not give a shit about at all. And I I used to care greatly. Yeah. And I would have cared about any, because who I don't want anyone to not like me, or how can I lose this thing? And it's like I just it would start a little, and I'm like, I don't give a shit at all.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

Yeah.

Netanya 48:20

And and just again, with to go back to one of your earlier questions about valuing myself, I also value the people that I keep around me, which means if I spend any amount of time with you on purpose, right? And that even means I mean, stuff like this, but also um if I just talk to you after a meeting, like that's still my time. I'm doing that on purpose. There's value in that for me. And there's just a great number of people that aren't worth the time. And it doesn't mean they're bad people. It might mean so-and-so's just in her own stuff right now and complaining about everything and can't hear me, and it's gonna exhaust me to be in that like energy vampire thing. Doesn't mean I don't love her. It just means like right now, I'm not, I'm a no for that. But to be able to sort of discern, and I say it like judgment is about right and wrong, but discernment is just this is for me and this isn't for me. And so to go through people in my life sort of cataloging and discerning who do I really value and want to spend more time with, who enhances my life, how whose life do I enhance? And it's not a selfish thing to be like, what am I getting from you? That's what makes a relationship, a give and a take. There's a there's a thing that I give and something I receive. That's what makes reciprocity. That's what makes a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Oh, yeah.

Netanya 49:37

And so looking at who who do I really value that really enhances my experience. And a lot of those people that I cared about what they thought really didn't add value.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

Wow. That one resonates with me a lot.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

We're coming up on our hour, so I'm going to circle back. Do you remember the very beginning of the interview? You said something, and I said.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Remember you said that?

Netanya 50:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Do you remember what you said?

Netanya 50:13

I said, where are we going?

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Yeah. The very last question on my list of questions. The very last one.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

Tell me. Where are you going?

SPEAKER_01 50:34

I just when you said it, I was motherfucker. How did she do that? That's the last question. I want to know everything that you have been through, your entire journey, which you have shared with me on some of our for those who don't know it, Natanya and I have the most amazing talks. Every time we're at an event or something, we end up, you know, 30 feet away catching up from people. So I am privileged to know your story and have you as a friend and someone I value and trust in my life. And I am interested in hearing where are you going?

SPEAKER_02 51:18

It makes me emotional.

Netanya 51:20

I can feel it like it came up when you asked.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Well, you're an amazing human being and have proven you can do this life. So I'm interested in your answer.

Netanya 51:33

I think what you just said is important. I I didn't have evidence of that for a long time. That I was amazing, that I could do things that were hard or big or great. And somewhere in that PhD practice, I practiced all those things and baby stepped my way,

Living Cyclically and Embracing Change

Netanya 51:52

you know, to get to get to become this version of me. But it's it's a great gift to own and stand in the version of yourself that you've created. And it doesn't mean I'm not so messy. But there's just a great beauty to be able to look around me tangibly at the life that I'm in. And whether that's material things or the job that I have, or the people I surround myself with, or the opportunities that come my way, or compliments that people give me, or you know, all of that, I've had to become a person that receives.

SPEAKER_02 52:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

You're making a face that is like, it's painful. I believe that you yes, I believe you, but I wish that people could see you struggled to just be able to say, receive.

Netanya 53:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

Is that so that's still hard for you to receive the truth that you are all of these things. And you used a statement before nobody put a gun to your head and said, get into recovery.

unknown 53:19

No.

SPEAKER_01 53:20

We we we talk about these pits or these bottoms, and here you are. You have survived 100% of your worst days, and yet here we are.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

In Nashville having this discussion. Fuck yes, you are worthy to receive all of these wonderful things.

Netanya 53:50

I think somewhere in there, in that little girl learned she learned that her value was in giving and what she does. If I can rescue, fix, and save other people, then I'm enough. And that's not true. Right. And so to not only break those stories of learning, and it doesn't mean you can't still give. And that to intentionally practice receiving and not only letting good things in, but repeatedly, continually, abundantly, and for have like to have them keep growing and upscaling and expanding is scary. It makes me nervous. And yet I keep doing it. And every time you do it, it's kind of like climbing Mount Everest. So if you if you climb Mount Everest, those that do such a great feat, you don't just go to the top. You go to Base Camp One first. And then you calibrate and let your body adjust and rest and sleep and do whatever you have to do so that your body can like readjust to the level that it's on. And then you hike to base camp two, and you're higher. And you have to you have to balance out.

SPEAKER_01 55:11

Not in one day.

Netanya 55:12

Mm-hmm. And you have to become the kind of person that's capable of being on that level. And there's a lot of energy to that, like the energetics of vibrationally being matched to an experience, which is a whole long thing I don't mean to get into. But, you know, they say they talk about um lottery winners. That's some ridiculous stat, like 80% of lottery winners within two years either lose everything that they had or gave it away or spent it, or are in more debt than they were beforehand. And I would equate a lot of that to the energetics of things. In order to become the kind of person that is a millionaire, you have to be a match for that level of experience, for understanding what the world vibrates and pulsates at for that level of income, what those experiences are, what is normal for them. You know, um, a private jet ride is is not a big deal. That's a normal experience for people at that level. And so I'm gonna give another story. This is funny. I haven't thought of this in a long time. I had um when I was married, my former in-laws were season ticket holders to the Chicago Bears. And the first time that I went to a Bears game with them was so much fun. Like you ride the train down into the city and you get off on certain stops, and then you get to the stadium and you get through the doors, and like you are special. You have a season, so you get to go to like the United Club, which is you know the higher end club than just the regular people get to go to, whatever. Um, and there's different experiences in there, and you have better seats and um better access to things.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

Better bathroom.

Netanya 56:56

And at that, that first time was such a high because it was like you just I've never done anything like this is so incredible. And then I was in that relationship for 11 years. And so for 11 seasons, I had access to season tickets and Sunday home games. We would go down there and suddenly the high that was once high became normal. And this is just the thing that we did, and this is how we get in, and now I know all the places in there, so I'm not new anymore, and it's very normal for me to be in there. And then towards the end of their um, we used to sell season tickets too. You'd sell them to like replenish it so you could buy them again next year. Um and sometimes we couldn't sell them, and my ex-husband didn't want to go, and I didn't want to go, and so we wouldn't go. So I just ate $800 worth of tickets on a Sunday because his parents didn't want to go either, couldn't go, you know. And we tried to, but and I didn't care anymore because that experience that was once something I could only

Future Goals and Living Intentionally

Netanya 58:01

imagine was now normal and in fact not even fun.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

Wow.

Netanya 58:06

And so I use that as an example of as you keep going through life, you can expand and grow. But those things that like who you are today, you, Reed, and me, you want stream deaf being.

SPEAKER_00 58:20

Right? Absolutely.

Netanya 58:22

I mean, blow your mind that this is what your life is today.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

I s yes. 100% accurate.

Netanya 58:30

But for you, this is normal. It's become your normal quietly over time.

SPEAKER_01 58:34

I do wish my girls were closer and I got to see them more. But yes, this version of me. Oh, I dreamed of it.

Netanya 58:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:43

Dreamed of it.

Netanya 58:44

And I talk about that because it's one of the one of the ways that I get to my goals is I have, you know, they say, what would Jesus do? I have uh, what would Natanya do? But it's not me today. It is the future, me, that, you know, where are we going? Her, that version of me for as far ahead as I can think, right? She wants to create this. This is what her life looks like every day, this is where she traveled to, this is what she owns or builds, what her relationships are, who she loves. And so when things come up in my life that are nerve-wracking, or I'm on the edge of something, I'm not sure what to do here, I won't ask what Jesus does. I ask what she does. What would she do here? Because she will, she's brave, she is strong, she will take the risk if she knows that she's gonna make her better, even if it's scary. She is funny and smart and ass kicking and kind and you know, stands on a stage and tells people that they're beautiful and amazing and that they can do it too. That version of me gets to call the shots in my life. And that's how I keep going. Because at some point, I've met her, I've become her. And so once I became her, I had to make a new her. So that those chains keep moving, that line keeps moving. And it's not from a place of like I never have enough or I'm always reaching for more. It's just like I got to the thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:09

Yeah.

Netanya 1:00:10

I became her, and she's really great. And I'm so curious what else we could do.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

Yeah.

Netanya 1:00:15

So back to your question of where am I going. Up and out and in. And I I've also one of the things that I've loved about this journey is that I've learned that I'm a phase person. I'm a phasey human. Think like the moon cycles, right? They they move in and out every month. Women's bodies, you cycle throughout experiences. The seasons cycle. You have winter in which you hibernate and go inward, and you have spring when something is born and new, and the summer when everything is bright and in the sun, and then you harvest in the fall. It keeps moving. And I'm like that as a person. And so I've had to give myself a lot of grace to let that be okay. In a in a culture that taught me for years, like you work out three days a week and this is the thing, and this is what you do. That's there's nothing wrong with that. I just don't work that way. Sometimes my body wants rest, and sometimes it'll be like 95 degrees out and wants to go for a run. And I'm like, really? Right now? You want to do this right now? Who go? You run like twice a year now. We're gonna want to do this. Um, but to let that be okay that I'm cyclical, and that means my life is cyclical. So even the dreams that I have, the things I could say, if you gave me like a chart, these are all the answers I could give you. I reserve my right to change my mind that it might change. And then as I, you know, I've lived in Nashville two years. Three years ago, I would have thought you were crazy.

The Gift of Evolution and Self-Expansion 

Netanya 1:01:52

Not even on my radar. Not a thing I ever thought about or wanted to do, even remotely. Never would I have thought.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:59

You did it.

Netanya 1:02:00

And the other thing I used to say like excessively, I'm not a city girl. I do not want to live in a city. Um at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:09

Where are we?

unknown 1:02:10

Yeah.

Netanya 1:02:10

In the middle of downtown Nashville on like the main street. You know, and so, and but I'm not a city girl. I don't, it's not my heart, but there's reasons I chose that at the time of which I chose it. There were things I wanted to say, like, like, I think it'd be cool to live in a downtown city while I'm single and living my life and I don't know anybody, and it helps me not to isolate. That was a big reason I chose this. But that that cyclical nature of my life keeps moving. And these are the things that I think I want to do right now. And I may meet someone in six months who has a different business opportunity or a different conversation, or is it passion that I'm like, oh, what is that? You know, that that puts me on a different direction and to sort of give myself grace to keep evolving. There is something I love. Um someone said once, and I'm I stole it, and I don't know who said it, but I'm gonna repeat it and pretend that I said it, which is like how incredible of an opportunity is to be so available for your own evolution.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:21

Oof. Wow.

Netanya 1:03:28

So I'm going. I know that. And I'm loving it along the way. I'm so curious. I don't have all the facts, I don't pretend to know the answers, and I'm so excited to see what happens next.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:46

I hope that when you go back and listen to this, you receive all of the beautiful aspects of you that make you who you are. And I and I'm gonna ask you that question again someday, somewhere down the road, and I can I hope that you don't like that was great. Thanks for this opportunity.

Netanya 1:04:12

Thank you for saying yes, and for coming hang out with me.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:15

No problem. This was awesome. We should do this again sometime.

Netanya 1:04:19

We should. Episode 100. Thank you so much for being here. It means more than you know. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a quick rating or review wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want more of me, head on over to NataniAlison.com and enter your name and email for behind the scenes updates in between shows. New episodes air every Tuesday. We'll see you next week.