Behind the wheel of Recovery – Ian’s Journey Through Addiction, Self-Harm & Hope

When life breaks you, what happens next?
 In this raw and unfiltered episode of Definitely Not Therapy, Dan Lawrence sits down with Ian — a dad, life coach, and specialist driving instructor for neurodiverse learners — whose story is one of collapse, survival, and rebuilding from the ashes.

Once caught in the spiral of addiction, suicidal thoughts, betrayal trauma, and broken relationships, Ian reached the edge of life itself. But what pulled him back was one moment — a vision of his son growing up without a father — that became his turning point.

Now, years later, Ian has turned pain into purpose. He works with people on the autism and ADHD spectrum, helping them learn to drive, navigate anxiety, and rebuild confidence using body-led learning and everyday language — no jargon, no fluff, just real tools that work.

Together, Dan and Ian unpack:

• 🔹 The invisible pressure and stigma facing dads today
• 🔹 Betrayal trauma and why “happy” memories can feel poisoned
• 🔹 Addiction as a coping mechanism — and what you’re really chasing
• 🔹 Autism, ADHD & the art of adapting methods to strengths
• 🔹 Why sometimes the body must move before the mind can heal
• 🔹 “Man up” — redefined as compassion, consistency, and courage
• 🔹 Social media, validation traps, and mental hygiene
• 🔹 The “rivers and dams” metaphor — releasing emotion in manageable pieces
• 🔹 How small, deliberate actions rebuild confidence, one day at a time

This is fatherhood without filters — grief, guilt, laughter, love, and learning how to show up even when you’re broken. Ian proves that with honesty, structure, and support, even the most fractured lives can become powerful blueprints for hope.

💭 Key Quote:

“Sometimes you need to borrow someone else’s belief until your own returns.” — Ian

🎙️ Host’s Reflection:

Dan opens up about his own journey through heartbreak and fatherhood under pressure, drawing parallels to Ian’s story and confronting the outdated idea that men must suffer in silence. Together, they challenge the myth of “manning up,” redefining it as the strength to stay, to feel, and to rebuild.

📢 Call to Action:

If this episode speaks to you, share it.
 You never know who might need to hear it.

💌 Got a story to tell?
Email: onlydance@gmail.com

DM Dan on social media:

• Facebook: Dan Lawrence
• Instagram: @DanLawrenceComedy
  
  
• Instagram: @DefinitelyNotTherapyPod
  
  

Transcript

 SPEAKER_01: 0:00 Welcome to Definitely Not Therapy, the show where I speak to real people and they tell real stories and they share a real vulnerability. It's raw, it's honest. And I'll try and make you think along the way. I'll try and make you laugh along the way. I might make you cry along the way. There's probably times I'll make you swear along the way as well. We're gonna talk about all life's highs. We're gonna talk about all life's lows. We're gonna talk about all the bits in between, the things that we probably shouldn't talk about, the things we shouldn't say out loud, but we're gonna say them anyway. We're gonna talk about them anyway, because that's the way that you get change. I'm Dan Lawrence, and let's get into it. This is definitely not therapy. Welcome to another episode of Definitely Not Therapy with me, Dan Lawrence, the unfiltered, raw, emotional roller coaster of a podcast about mental health. In this episode, I'll be talking to Ian. Now, Ian faced a serious, serious mental health battle due to the breakdown of not just one but several relationships, each one taking its toll and the pressure that society puts on dads. And this is something that I can certainly relate to. And before you all come at me, I appreciate I put myself out there, and when you put yourself out there, you're open to judgment. Everyone has opinions, some are good, some are bad, and I accept that that comes with that, but it doesn't make it easier as a dad. The pressure is still there as a dad. We half the time don't know what we're doing. Especially if you're a new parent, if you've only got one child, everything is new, everything is the first time. And how do you you've got all these opinions? And it's really, really difficult to know exactly what to do, and a lot of pressure comes with that, especially as a dad, because all you want to do is keep that child safe, keep that child happy. I appreciate this is a sensitive subject, and mums are incredible. I've said that from day one. Mums have superpowers. I get that. But for mums, there's literally something scientific that clicks, there's a chemical that releases when you have a child. Dads don't get that. Sometimes dads have to try really hard. However, a dad, for the most part, will father a child because he wants to be a dad. He wants to be in that child's life for the rest of that child's life. What most dads don't want is to have a child, get the greatest gift on this planet of being a dad, and then being kicked to the curb. And then instead of being 100% of a dad, you're there 20% of the time. And someone else steps in and they take over your role and they play daddy to your child. And that is, I don't think anyone can understand the emotional toll that that will take on a man. This episode is really, really personal to me. I hope that I can learn from Ian's struggles as a dad. Ian's gone from the lowest point. From the lowest point, he's struggled with addiction, his struggle with depression, his struggle with the breakdown of relationships. It's led to him being suicidal. But do you know what? Ian battled through and he's come through the other side. And I really hope I can learn something from Ian. And Ian's thriving. Ian is a life coach. Ian is a driving instructor for people who struggle and for people who are on the spectrum. Ian loves talks on mental health. And I'm really excited to have Ian on the show today. Ian, welcome to the show. I did it again. I'm not, there's no one there. SPEAKER_00: 3:56 It's definitely not therapy. SPEAKER_01: 3:58 Well, first of all, then Ian, welcome to Definitely Not Therapy. And thanks for taking time out to come and come and talk to me and tell me your story. SPEAKER_02: 4:06 Cool, thank you. SPEAKER_01: 4:08 Basically, I'm talking to a different stranger on every single episode. Just I think I've got this real like belief in me that you don't need to be like a big CEO of a company, a multimillionaire or billionaire, or even be a celebrity to have like an interesting story. I actually find it really hard to kind of relate to some of these podcasts of these billionaires saying, Oh, they've struggled with this and they've struggled with that. I find it hard to relate because they're a billionaire. They've got like it cut it's never gonna be as difficult as potentially someone that's really struggled when they've still got all this money and they can go out and play on their jet ski and and stuff like that. Do you know what I mean? I always just find it's not very relatable. So I want to talk to real people, get real stories, and just kind of hear what real people have been through. I I'd find I found that more relatable when I was really struggling because that's what made me feel like okay, I'm not I'm not on my own. Because that's I think was the biggest thing for me was feeling like I'm I'm alone, like even in busy places. I just felt like I'm alone, I'm on my own. I'm the only one. It's probably it's quite selfish, I think, because I I was sort of thinking, it's only me, I'm the only person in the world that's going through this, it's horrific. But actually, loads of people go through worse, yeah. And it's not nice to hear that, it's not nice to hear other people are struggling, but it does give you a sense of okay, I can't have a weight off your shoulders, okay. I'm not on my own with it, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so anyway, so like I say, thanks for for coming on the show, Ian. If you wouldn't mind, just give me a little bit of like a introduce yourself, tell me a little bit about you, and then we'll sort of get into to where it sort of started for you. SPEAKER_03: 6:00 Okay, so obviously, my name's Ian. I am life coach and I'm a driving instructor who also works with people on the spectrum, okay, and people that suffer with anxiety and all that. I work with them within driving as well. So I've kind of mixed it a little bit where I can. So, a bit about myself. So I was always the kid that most people underestimated. Okay. Most of the time. I'm I'm an 80s kid, so certain things was a little bit different back then. Uh the doctors thought I was epileptic because I used to have blackouts. And back in them days, they told you you'll never be able to work, you'll never be able to drive for the rest of your life. SPEAKER_01: 6:45 Wow. SPEAKER_03: 6:46 Yeah, that's how that's how it was back then. So I always thought differently to everyone else. Everyone always said to me, I think too deeply into things, and and I'm too much, and even family have said that to me. And uh as a result, I ended up having a bit of an attitude with the world, as you can imagine. I didn't finish school, um, I didn't because partly because of the whole thing about meant to have epilepsy and stuff, but also I didn't fit with anyone at school, and lastly, everyone's talking about going to college, doing all these things, and I thought that's not part of my future, so what am I gonna be at school for? You know what I mean? Because I got told I can't do any of these things, anyway. So, what am I gonna be at school? So I wasn't in school, ended up getting up to stuff that I wouldn't recommend, and then fast forward many years afterwards. Well, I say many years, I was 18, my son came about. Okay. Me and his mother wasn't exactly have the best relationship. And then as time went on, then I can't talk very deeply into things. It's happening many years ago, and me saying names and stuff like that could affect maybe their children and stuff like that. Yeah, no, of course, that's of key, whatever you want to do. No, of course, I respect that. But two people, very, very important to me at the time, hurt me to the point where the world just didn't look right to me anymore. Because at the time, because I always felt different to everyone else, you end up building a bond with people, you start thinking them out what happens, they're gonna be there forever, and all this stuff. I was young and very misunderstood, so that's you know, normal part of it. Yeah, and then so when they hurt me, it it just changed everything. It affected my relationship with my friends, it affected some of my relationship with my family because some family was involved in the drama. Okay, and um, and I had to struggle with a lot of that while also trying to figure out how to be a dad. Because at the time, like my dad weren't really around much, so I had my own hatred for him based on what I believed a parent should be at the time, you know. And you know, me and my mum, we're cool and that, but our relationship was not as common as what you'd expect for most people to have with their parents. So I felt very alone, very isolated. I ended up being suicidal. I started thinking like I actually cut myself just a couple of times to hurt myself because this is the thing about any sort of habit, and this is something I've learned any habit you can think of, you're doing it because you're getting something from it. So your so your brain, any sort of habit you can think of, you're getting something from it. That's why you keep doing it. Right, okay. I didn't know all of this at the time, obviously. And then a family member and aunt, because like I said, it involves certain family members at the time, she told me I deserved everything I got, yeah, because she was very protective of like her child, right? Um who I mean, like I said, certain people were part of it, and at the time I was already she didn't know, I'm not saying it makes it any better, but I was suicidal at the time, I was I was dabbling with drugs. Oh that's an understatement I was mentally exhausted, yeah, you know, so like I just didn't know which way was up. I felt like my support network was absolutely demolished and what I believed was right and wrong, or at least what the um my idea of who I am was ruined. So I got my son, my son was one at the time, so I got my brother to babysit my son, and then I went and got some drugs, and I got a knife, and then I went down to the local park that we used to call the Dell, and then I went down in the evening, and it was like I ended up sitting on a bench, and I was just ready to just end it. Wow, I was really just yeah, I was just ready to end it. The thing about when you're in that sort of mindset, you end up being quite self-absorbed. So you know, like what you said about something like it's just you going up doing that, and at that time I genuinely believed that the world would be better if I wasn't there. Yeah, yeah. So when you start believing that, you have little flashes of the world being a better place without that kind of thing, and then the negative sort of kind of snaps me out of it because then I actually envisioned my son hating me. Okay because I left him, yeah. SPEAKER_01: 12:27 Right, oh because of it. So you think he would grow up. SPEAKER_03: 12:30 I envisioned my son being so mad at me. If he's got a mind like mine, which everyone has always criticized, um and he's got a mind like mine, he's got no one else to sort of guide him through them sort of mental obstacles that is my mind. Yeah, I can see him hating me. And for a moment there, I broke down. I uh it snapped me out of it for a moment there, enough for me to start thinking of a different path for myself. SPEAKER_01: 12:57 Well that's well, that's good. I'm glad that I'm glad that happened. I it's and I I can relate to that moment that you're in, and I think you like I can completely agree, like you are self-absorbed, you you convince yourself that actually no one cares enough. No, it won't matter to anyone. That's right, and that's yeah, so I can relate, but I think one of the things for for me was you're sort of passing that pain on, you're taking your pain and passing it to your to your children when you do that, and it's exactly you don't think of that in the moment, this is an afterthought, but yeah, I can relate. SPEAKER_03: 13:40 So, yeah, that's that's definitely a hindsight thought process, and that's I think that I would encourage anyone that's going through that. Like, give yourself the chance to have a hindsight vision of what's going on, yeah. Like it's it's a very permanent solution to a possible temporary problem, you know what I mean? Yeah, so yeah, so so as time went on, I didn't go to counseling or anything like that because my lifestyle and you know and the sort of lifestyle I had, that was a weakness. So I tried figuring out myself and I made a lot of bad choices. Um we've all been there, yeah. But like as time went on, fast forward many years now, I'm a sort of like um a qualified life coach. I've done different things involving mental health. As I said, I'm gonna drive I'm a driving instructor now. And one of the so one of the things I do in driving instructing, I want to I've tried teaching people who have ADHD, autism, people in the spectrum, things like that. SPEAKER_01: 14:53 Okay. SPEAKER_03: 14:54 I found out a few years ago that I'm actually I I actually have autism and ADHD. SPEAKER_01: 14:59 Okay. Is this something that you'd always suspected, or is this just something that you kind of went to adopt? SPEAKER_03: 15:06 Something I never really thought about. It kind of got mentioned to me, but by the time it got mentioned to me, it was many, many years down the line. Because in the 80s and 90s, it didn't really get recognized unless you're unless you were non-verbal. SPEAKER_02: 15:23 Yeah. SPEAKER_03: 15:24 So but back when I was younger, I'd done acting lessons. SPEAKER_01: 15:29 Okay. SPEAKER_03: 15:30 Which is why I can be more expressive with my body language and stuff like that when I'm talking. But if I'm spiraling, a lot of the time my face is just straight. It's like it's like you don't know what's going on in my head at all. And and apparently that's that's the result of that. So, like, one of the things the one of the reasons why I do what I do in regards to mental health and driving instructing is because I always got told I can't. SPEAKER_01: 15:56 Well, I was just gonna ask a question if if I can. You you obviously mentioned that you're a driving instructor. Was this a conscious choice because of when you were younger, they'd said you won't ever drive. You've kind of then thought, okay, they've said I can't drive. Not only am I gonna drive, I'm gonna teach. SPEAKER_03: 16:19 So funnily enough, the driving instructing wasn't my original thought. I was a fiery kid, so like I was very passionate, but it's only I'm still a passionate guy now, but I learned how to make it work for me. Yeah, so when I was a when I was a kid and someone told me you can't do that, I'd be like, What do you mean I can't do that? And get like that. But like now that I'm older now and questionably wiser, um it's debatable. Now, if someone tells me I can't, I can just look into the eye and be like, watch me. Yeah, do you see what I mean? So now I've learned to I am a passionate guy, and I think one of the things that people do wrong is that they're really trying to force themselves to be something they're not in order to create an idea of happiness, yeah, that they saw in someone else. So, like a social media influencer or something, they'd be like, I want to be more like that when certain characteristics and personality traits are just us and it's what makes us great. Yeah, it's about it's about using that personality trait that you have and making it work for you rather than against you, you know. So that's why and I don't know, in regards to the drive and instructing, my dad actually is a drive and instructor. Okay, and me and my dad for the past six years have become close now. Uh whereas when I was younger, you have a very when you when your parents aren't what you believe they should have been, or if they weren't there as much as they should have been, you start having a idea in your head of how they should be, yeah, rather than seeing who they are, yeah, and what the reality of it is. A lot of the time it isn't actually personal, it's them dealing with their own stuff. Yeah, and I'm not making it okay, I'm just saying that took away a lot of years in my life because I kept making it about me. SPEAKER_01: 18:08 Yeah, yeah. Well, you build a resentment, but you don't really know why you're building a resentment because you don't know. I I think until you do become a dad, or you and you become older and you become wiser about the world, it's it's it's like I've now learned to use it as like I never thought I'd be a good a good dad, because I never thought I could I was like my dad. And my dad used to he would leave early in the morning, come home late at night, work in all the hours, and like I would see him, he was there, he was present, but it it it's like it was mum, mum was there all the time, so I just thought I don't know if I can do I don't know how to be a dad because I didn't really not not see my dad, but I just didn't really think I'd be able to be a good dad. So when my little one came along, it was just kind of panic panic stations, but just wanting to be there for it was probably overkill, like I just want to be there for everything, every second. That's why I left my career and jumped into social media because I can be there for every little second of every day. Obviously, then circumstances change when you know me and her mum split, but but yeah, anyway, sorry to interrupt you, it's just yeah, but I can relate to the sort of growing up. It was it was different when we grew up. Like you said, growing up in the 80s, it's different is a different world to what it is now as well. SPEAKER_03: 19:28 Well, yeah, like I was I was a kid, um, I was born 83, certain things just were, and like the early 90s, like things just they just were, it's not it's not a case of debate. This is what it is, and I appreciate that mindset because it helps me in regards to the path I choose, but in another way, as time goes on, obviously what is socially acceptable and stuff changes, yeah. So then there's a lot of doubt and and stuff involved. But as I I can relate to what you're saying about when you had your little one because I felt the same because of the the relation between me and my dad. Because I always thought, yeah, I'll always be there for my child, I won't do what my dad did and not be there, and blah blah blah blah blah. And then when the child is actually there, you start thinking, right now what? And then it comes very apparent to you that you're like, just because you're there doesn't mean you're a good influence on your child. It's not just simply being there and not being there. Yeah, like what is it that you're gonna be teaching to your child? And then I heard a quote I can't remember their name now, so many years ago. But they said your story will one day be someone's survival guide. Wow. So I took that very literal, and I was like, I know I'm feeling this pain now, and I know I'm feeling what I am feeling now, but once I figure it out, I'll have something to give my son. Because at the time we had no money, you know what I mean? We did we didn't have none. And when we moved in to our flat, my son has lived with me for many years, he's he's grown now. But like when we went into our flat, all we had is two mattresses, a TV, and a DVD player. We didn't even have no furniture at first. So originally I was very much like, I would like to just have enough money for me for to say to my son, you know what, let's go to the cinema. Because we didn't have money like that, we just have money for food and and stuff like that. Yeah. So getting from where I was to where I am now is is a huge is a huge thing. And my boy is trying his best to navigate in a world like like most of us are trying. SPEAKER_00: 21:43 It's definitely not therapy, yeah. SPEAKER_03: 21:46 The stigma that mental health has, I find it's a very interesting sort of dynamic that a lot of us put actually put on ourselves. Once I actually, because obviously there's there's there's kind of like a stigma in regards to men's mental health and stuff like that, but I realize we do that to ourselves. Like I like I always even teach my clients or my driving instructors and pupils, it doesn't matter what people say that is oh, you shouldn't feel like that, you shouldn't feel like what matters is what it is. Yeah, you're feeling like this right now. It's not about because we put a lot, especially as us as parents, we think, Well, I'm I'm a dad, I should know this by now, or I'm 30s, I should know this by now. You don't know what you don't know, and it doesn't matter what age you are, if you don't know, you don't know. So each one of my pupils who are on the spectrum as well, I teach them how to use what like their their characteristics of who they are and make it work for them rather than forcing them to do it my way. I will adapt and help them understand in a way that helps benefits their gifts and helps them excel. Because I remember everyone doubting me, everyone thinking I won't make it, everyone thinking I'll be a terrible dad, thinking I'm stupid because I was in the lowest class at school because they explained it in a way that I couldn't comprehend. And yeah, like you just kind of gotta get rid of sort of like the background noise sometimes and focus on what it is that you actually need. SPEAKER_01: 23:27 It's a real skill to do like what you've done and to get from where you were to have now that level of understanding to help someone who may need that extra help, may need that extra time and certainly that understanding for you to then use that like for them, like to use what they've got for them so they can actually move forward and and learn something like you know, drive like doing the driving. It's not an easy thing to do, and especially if you're maybe, and I don't know the intricacies of being on on the spectrum, of course, but you've got all the it's hard enough to learn how to drive without all this other stuff going on in your head. So to have that level of understanding is I mean, Ria, fair fair play to you, man. SPEAKER_03: 24:17 Thank you. Uh it's hard for me to acknowledge it sometimes. Like I I've the life that I've chose to go for, I never really had any support in regards to walking down that path because like the driving instructing, I had some of my dad's help because obviously he's a driving instructor, yeah. SPEAKER_01: 24:38 Of course. SPEAKER_03: 24:39 But in regards to me wanting to use my darkness to bring light to someone else, I didn't really everyone around me wasn't part of that life, so it a lot of the time it felt like it was an uphill struggle because I had no one to guide me at that time. I could just use the the idea of the sort of dad I want to be, the sort of man I want to be to to inspire my son. Yeah, I I had to focus on on that on that belief, and then the more you start walking down and the more you start realizing that as it goes, I don't know what I'm doing. You start more thinking, what sort of so the person I want to be, what does that look like? SPEAKER_01: 25:34 Yeah, yeah. SPEAKER_03: 25:35 So you see what I mean? Yeah, like so. I think right, I I am a passionate guy. Should I be calm all the time? And and I realize I am calm for the most part, but I am a passionate guy. So it's it's sort of like it's like right, so that version of me, what does it look like? And then I learned something that's called neurolinguistics programming. SPEAKER_01: 25:57 Okay. That sounds way too complicated for me, by the way. Just even a word, I'm like, always it's NLP. SPEAKER_03: 26:03 A lot of coaches know how to do it. It's basically rewriting, reframing the story in your mind to kind of create a different sort of thing. So, like, I I had an image in my head of how I want it to be, the size I want it to be, how I want to bring presence in the room. And like, I done a workshop not long ago. I made a workshop based on betrayal trauma, which some a lot of people don't know about it. So it's a certain it's a it's a kind of trauma that happens when you feel like you've been obviously betrayed. And when I say betrayed, it could be cheating, it could be abuse or something from someone who you trust with your life. The trust is broken, yeah, and how it affects your mind and stuff, like it pollutes your memories. So every happy memory you have had of that person or whatever now is polluted. Now you start second-guessing everything is like what did what were they like that this then? Were they like then and then was it at the pub? Was it like you pollute it all? Yeah, and because our brains are made to find solutions all the time. When we can't find a solution to why it truly happened, it will eventually come back to us, yeah, and say, What did I do? You know, so and then and then that's when we spiral because we can't come out with a solution if we're always blaming ourselves, because eventually you will start picking your natural personality traits that may not necessarily be a negative, it might actually be your gift, but you're just poking holes at yourself as a human being because your brain's trying to figure out why this is happening to me. And I one so I done this thing with these guys, these guys are recovering addicts. And I said, There's a few things that it's important to realize. So when you're trying to rebuild yourself, and it's about and I say it's mind, body, and and also the vibe that you bring into the place. And the guy didn't understand what I meant by vibe. Some people call it spirit, I'm saying more vibe. So I said, picture it like this, and then I walked up to him, very aggressive. Like I was really angry and just started walking up to him, and then I stopped in front of him. I said, How did that make you feel? He said, I thought we were gonna fight, and I started laughing and we started laughing together, and I said, Okay, so I said, How about this? And I put out my hand, I said, How are you doing? My name's here, and then I said, Did you notice your shoulders just went down? I said, All of a sudden, I said, You don't see me as a threat, do you? He said, No. So I said, When you've gone through a traumatic experience, you are constantly on survival mode. And when all of us has experienced fight or flight at some point in our lives, but when you're going through trauma or a big amount of pain, your fight and flight is on overdrive for a long extended amount of time. The human body is only meant to be in it for minutes, right? As I'm sure you know, like when you're in pain, it lasts for weeks, months. So it's hard, it's hard for you to see the world the same place because you're constantly in survival mode. So I explained to this guy, because you're constantly moving instinctively, always raw energy, you need to control it and be like, right, how you doing? You need to create the vibe so your brain can start reframing and start using different actions, deliberate actions, to help you heal, if that makes sense. Because it's it's not always about the confidence in the body, sometimes the body moves and the mind follows. Yeah, so yeah, so all of that is very fascinating to me. As you can tell, I'm quite passionate about it. SPEAKER_01: 29:39 Like, honestly, I was gripped that whole time I was gripped, and I think it's so related for anyone that's been through any kind of trauma or betrayal. Like, that is just a that just fits. That just like that. You've basically just narrated my last year and a half of my life. Like, I was there, like, this is me, this is what. I've I've done this. I'm constantly on my on myself. Like, what did you do wrong? What's wrong with you? Why are you say this? Why are you so it's constant? And you know what? It's mentally exhausting. But to hear you say that is like, oh, okay. Like, I get it now. SPEAKER_03: 30:20 So that's that's one of the things I wanted to do as a coach and driving instructor. I remembered how intimidating it was speaking to very, very qualified people and them coming out with big words of mental health and stuff. To someone like me that's been around on the streets, like you know, that sort of lifestyle and drugs and all of it. That all them words are quite intimidating. It makes us feel more makes us feel sick, like terminally sick. But I always wanted to be able to explain what these mean, what these things mean to someone in the pub. SPEAKER_02: 30:58 Yeah. SPEAKER_03: 30:59 Because I remember how it felt being stupid and being, that's a long word. I must be really bad. I must be messed up. I must be mad. But to help someone understand, you're not mad. It's your body's trying to trying to like defend itself constantly. You just need to your your anxiety is unbalanced. Anxiety is a normal thing, it kept us alive, even we were cavemen. But as time went on, the balance ended up going wrong. Back when we were cavemen, anxiety came up when there was a danger. Now you have anxiety because you got a written test. Yeah. unknown: 31:31 Yeah. SPEAKER_03: 31:32 Do you see what I mean? Like it's it's about moving your body and everything else so deliberate so you can balance it out a little bit more to be able to sell, right? I am scared, but I'm not petrified. Yeah, this isn't that deep. Yeah. And I feel like we all need to try and learn that through each other. Because I feel like real people should help real people. Like you said, it shouldn't just be the CEOs and all things like that, all the gurus. Real people need to help real people because that's when change happens. SPEAKER_01: 31:59 Yeah. Yeah. I could I mean I could I could not agree more like this. The last what you all of that that you've just said is honestly like blown my mind because I find it just so relatable. And to see your passion for it as well, like yeah, the people you help must just you're you you it's changing. I don't wanna I don't know what the right wording is, I don't want to like overstate it, but it's it's like you it's saving people's lives, like you are in a sense because you're understanding people, you're listening to people, you've given people time, and you're explaining something in certainly for me, something in my mind that I'm like I've never been able to understand, and you've just summed it up in like five minutes and made me feel and that's just with five minutes with you, do you know what I mean? That's made me feel more rest assured that okay, like, yeah, everything is gonna be okay. Think like, okay, this is normal. I'm not the only person that's gone through this. SPEAKER_00: 33:04 It's definitely not therapy. SPEAKER_01: 33:05 Something I wanted to touch on is you, and you said it earlier, actually, and and it's I heard an analogy recently, and I probably won't like nail it, but the concept hopefully you'll you'll understand. And it's like what you said about when you were at school and you didn't you didn't really get it, you didn't really fit in, people were calling you like were calling you stupid or whatever that it was that you said. And someone said to me the other day, it's like you can have two different types of person, and it's like you could look at it as you've got two different types of car. If you if you put a Formula One car on a road on just a road, it's not gonna function, it's not gonna thrive on there. Where it's gonna thrive is on its racing track where it's supposed to be. If you put a normal everyday car, if I took my car and put it on a racetrack with all the Formula One cars, it's gonna fail, it's not gonna do well. So sometimes it's just being in the right situations, you know. School for some people, it's like having a Formula One car on a on a road, just trying to trying to get about, and you can't you can't just navigate a turn, you can't just park to go shopping. Like, I know it all sounds silly, but the concept of having this this Formula One brain potentially, just on a in a school where it's just all the same, like it's just not designed for it. You'll go on and thrive like you have done, you'll go on in actual life. When you figure it out, you th that's where you thrive. SPEAKER_03: 34:32 Yeah, like I I've got a really good quote for this as actually. Um I heard it and it just spoke volumes to me. Again, sorry, I can't remember who said it, but they said if you judge a fish based on its capability of climbing a tree, that fish will feel stupid for the rest of his life. And I totally believe that. I yeah, yeah, my my brain is very complex. Like in my head, it's like I have 10,000 TV screens playing different things at the same time. SPEAKER_01: 35:06 Wow. SPEAKER_03: 35:07 All the time. And in many other jobs I've had, that wasn't useful. Like I I've had arguments with bosses because they think I'm challenging their authority when I'm not. In my head, I'm just trying to think of a simplistic way to deal with the problem. Yeah, but my tone or whatever obviously was a bit off. This was before I got diagnosed, and then yeah, I just got greed with animosity and and yeah, and and stuff like that. Whereas I realized my brain is wired this way because this is who I am. I don't focus, even when I found out I was uh autistic and ADHD, that's not my identity. I'm Ian first, it just so happens that I have these things, I'm not the other way around. And I feel like some people will make their identity these diagnoses, yeah. Depression, anxiety, ADHD, any of that. It will they'll make their identity. So it will be like, I'm autistic and ADHD. Oh, and my name's Ian. That's the only way round. Yeah, like I haven't really got much to compare. So I've had a conversation before where they're like been told, is this the is it because you're autistic? Is it because of this? I have no comparison. I've been like this for 41 years. I'm not the person to ask. Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like, you tell me is their comparison because everyone looks weird to me. Yeah, you know what I mean? So like it's just it's just odd. Even with social media, I I keep getting told I need to post more things, and it's very difficult for me to do that because I have all these screens in my head. I don't know what information is useful unless I'm asked. So if you're talking to me, I can come out with something that may sound profounding, but I'm just speaking, you know. And I've been told, oh, just just share a video on social media, just speak your thoughts. And I'm saying to him, You don't know what that means. SPEAKER_02: 37:16 That's ten hours, that's a 10-hour video, right there. SPEAKER_03: 37:18 It'll be exhausting for me to say everything that's in my head, so it's really hard for me to navigate what's useful and what isn't. Yeah, I don't share much of social media because of it. My brain is just wired that way. SPEAKER_01: 37:31 Yeah. But yeah, but a lot of people are like that though. A lot of people feel that, and and a lot of people that I that I speak to, even people that I know that are really funny or they're really interested, or they've got something about them, and it's like you should post that on social media. Like when we were growing up, anyway, we didn't have that. Like, I was kicked out of the house in the morning, and it's like come home when it's dark, and you were just given a football or whatever, and that was it. Whereas now it's everything is social media, so but I've got friends that are you know they could put stuff on social media and it would be interesting, they'd get a lot from it. But I think what comes with it, it doesn't matter who you are, there's always going to be some kickback, and some some people just don't have it, depending on what they've they've been through. Like it's not easy, even when you could have millions of likes, millions of people saying you're incredible, but one comment to say you're not funny or you're overweight, or that it can really that it can really damage someone, and some people just aren't cut aren't strong enough to to to go through that. And the problem with social media is it's already got that reputation that if I go on social media, I'm going to get hate, and I think that's a really sad thing. SPEAKER_03: 38:49 It it is very, very sad, and I feel and I feel like that's one of the things that is I've got no problem in talking to people and disagreeing with people, but I feel like my mind needs to be at a certain place in order for me to share things like that on social media, because I I know me as a person, if I'm constantly sharing on social media again and again and again, them likes and the people's comments will affect me because I've it doesn't matter how mentally strong you are. If you've ever been in a narcissistic relationship, doesn't matter how mentally strong you are, eventually you'll believe what they're saying about you, eventually, yeah, if you constantly go around you. So I have a very small circle of uh friends and people that care about me and I care about them who actually have an effect on my emotional state because they are my eyes and ears when my eyes and ears aren't working too good, you know what I mean? Yeah, because if I'm stressed, my senses ain't great. So they truly care about me and the path I'm trying to lead. So if I share something on social media, I want to be able to do it without the emotion behind it, yeah. You know, yeah, because it the the the likes can be in like intoxicating, like it can be it's like you know, the little dopamine hit that you get from things that you enjoy, just having the likes of people, oh I really like your stuff, it gives you that feeling that oh, like yeah, like oh I'm doing I'm doing good, and then I realize very quickly if like I I do not envy your job, yeah because like it, you know what I mean? Because I know me as a person, if I do it again and again and again, I'm gonna be looking for them likes. And if I'm not, and if I haven't got as much as I did before, I'll be like, what did I do wrong? Because I'm very into patterns, so it's it doesn't yeah, it's it's difficult, it's difficult for me. So take my hat off to you, man. SPEAKER_01: 40:49 Yeah, it's it. I mean it's not it, it's not easy, it's rewarding, and I think sometimes the the benefits outweigh the negatives. I I have to kind of put myself in this mind frame a lot of the time that any interaction is good interaction when you're a content creator. Some people make a living off of the hate and the negativity, and I don't know how, I don't know how, because I want people to like me, like I'll wear my arm on my sleeve, and I can't go out there and like it's any and I have to yeah, any interaction is good interaction, any hate comment, okay, I don't want it, but it might spark a conversation, and it all helps when you're a when you're a creator. But it's one of the reasons it's one of the reasons that I wanted to do something like this podcast, and it's been in my it's been in my head for like a long time. When I posted a video, it was like quite a raw, it doesn't get done, it never really gets done. A raw real emotion It was about my breakup, and it was hard to post. I didn't make it for social media, I've talked about this openly. I didn't I made it as a video diary to to hopefully look back on in a year and be like, look how far you've come. And I ended up friends, family, they were like, You you should post. Obviously, because we'd stopped making content. I won't go into like all the details, but it's like I posted this and there was so much support, and it was lovely. And I had thousands and thousands of messages in my inbox, so that's a really nice up to immediately felt some support because in a very short, just in an instant, I felt I was alone, like I'd lost everything. That's how I that's how I felt. But what came with it was so many comments of from not just men, men and women. It was just like man up, man up. What like men shouldn't be talking about this? And I just and it really sort of bugged me for such a long time. It was like, why? Like, why? Why are we in this situation where you you it's like okay, you can talk about mental health, but go and do it with a therapist and in your own time. It is like you can do it, but as long as it's on someone else's terms. And I thought that's why I want to make this podcast. Like, no, I want to talk about mental health, I want to spread awareness for mental health, and I don't want to have to do it on someone else's terms, I want to do it on my terms, and I want to talk talk about it how I want to talk about it. Because I don't think I don't think it's okay. It's okay if you've got the opinion of man up, but don't necessarily say it. It it I don't know. There's I find it not aggressive, but man up just makes me feel like you don't you maybe haven't gone through what someone else has gone through. Maybe be take a minute. I want to educate people, take a minute to think actually what's he gone through, or because I've had so I had some of them comments that people said that, and then you know what, six months later they messaged me and they went, I'm going through the same thing now. I understand. SPEAKER_03: 43:54 You know what? I totally I totally understand that. A lot of the people that said that I was weird as a child have like started speaking to me about their problems, and when I was a kid, like emotions seemed really weird to me. Acting helped a lot, yeah, because you because you got to assess the person, you know, and the emotions behind it. But for most of my life, I felt like I was looking at the world behind the window. Okay, I just thought everyone was weird. So, but like I said, my mind works very much in patterns. I'm not that bothered about what people think of me. But if I see a shift in a pattern of body language and stuff, I'm like, did I do something? Yeah, and then like, did I do something wrong? And it and sometimes I second guess, but that's all part of my brain. But like, in regards to man up, I always see it's down to interpretation. So I realized from the people that I've spoken to and coached, this is just a generalization, but it's it's happened more often times than not. Men's mental health is different to women, a woman's mental health. Yeah, if sometimes if a guy lets it all out, so I've seen some women who they'll hug, they'll cry, they'll scream and stuff like that, and then somehow these magical creatures end up putting their makeup on and they still handle their business the next day. Whereas guys, if we actually literally let it all out, we don't want to go work the next day. We like, we don't we ain't got the energy to do anything. So if so, most of us guys, when we're in a pub or something like that, and we're talking about our problems, it will there will be certain intervals while we're talking, so we'd be like, Yeah, this happened, this happened, right? Who's getting the pints? Yeah, whatever, and then we'll get back to it. Like, I'll I've noticed a lot of the time with guys in regards to mental health. The it the expressing needs to happen in pieces, yeah, for us to heal in a in a healthy way. Because my theory is as we grow older, so imagine a river, the river is your emotions throughout your life. As you're as you get older, you start putting certain dams in certain sections of your life, just so you're able to function and get certain things done regardless of the pain that you're feeling, and then sometimes when you reach a certain age and you gain a certain amount of clarity in a certain way, that dam does not work like it did when you were 15 years old. So then it crumbles and it breaks, and then you have to build another one, yeah, and and that's that's the way we function. So so when someone says only my friends, if my friends say Ian, you need like you you you need to sue it out. My friends in particular are saying it for my own good because they know what I'm like when I spiral. Yeah, you know, like I I can hug, I can cry and stuff, but if I've been like it for a good four or five days, it's really difficult for me to come out, and they know that about me. So they say, Ian, you need to get moving, you need to get up and get and get this done. You need see what I mean. So that is their version of man up. Yeah, it's it's it's not like you can't, it's not like you can't cry, it's there's certain things in the world that need to be done that that is only meant for you. You're the one with the gifts to do. Yeah, so yes, you can cry, you can, but also don't forget you have a life, don't you got people that love you, don't forget you got certain advice that people look for to you to give, you know? And I feel like sometimes, especially as a parent, like don't get me wrong, our children need us, but I don't think the children actually realise how much we need them. SPEAKER_01: 47:46 I would wholeheartedly say I've needed my little girl in this last couple of years, uh like 99% more than what she's needed me. She will go on and thrive without me, but 100%. SPEAKER_03: 48:01 And it's it's a crazy feeling, but like especially when you have kids, it's like all your insecurities and your heart is now now has legs and arms and calls you dad. SPEAKER_02: 48:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah. SPEAKER_03: 48:14 You know what I mean? Like a lot of there's certain people that have the benefit of keeping their heart in and no one gets to see it, but our one draws breath. SPEAKER_02: 48:22 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's true. SPEAKER_03: 48:25 Yeah, in regards to man up, like I said, I feel like men's mental health and women's mental health is different, and I think sometimes it's important to understand the differences so we can learn from each other. Yeah, we don't have to be the same, no, you know. Uh, there's I've had advice from women that I'll never get from some of my guy mates, especially when it involves cheating, you know? So yeah. In relation down to interpretation, don't let any stranger tell you to man up, yeah. Only let your friends say some sort of equivalent of that because they know you best. SPEAKER_01: 48:58 Yeah, and that's what I mean. And I've had friend, I've had my friends that have said that to me. I've got two two best friends who were really supportive when I really needed them, and they're two very different people. One of them is like very, very, very similar to me, Annie, and but he's just like a super nice version. He's just the nicest man on the planet. Is he's always will agree with anything I say, and then I've got my other friend, Ricky. I'm sure he won't mind me saying this. He will just tell me straight. He he he will have the same care for me and want me to do well at anything that I do and that same level of support, but he'll be like, Right, Dan, this is what you need to hear. This is and he'll tell me in a direct manner, because sometimes I need to hear it, and I'm sure they probably talk to each other and they're like, Right, this is the tactic we're gonna take with Dan today because he's in a bad place. Do you want to come in here be like, right, Dan, you're you're brilliant at everything you do, Dan? Like, I'm here for you, and then Ricky go, right? But Dan, listen, mate, this is what you need to do. You but not man up, but basically man up. SPEAKER_03: 50:05 Yeah, but the equivalent, right? They're equivalent. And like my one of my mates, he's very, very blunt, and he's not the most liked person on the planet because he is blunt. But I know when I'm spiraling and in when I'm in a dark place, my walls are up. Yeah, yeah. It's up and it's tough. His bluntness breaks through it. Like, whereas if someone's like, Oh, Ian, it's alright, then you're just reinforcing my walls. Yeah, yeah. Because when you're going through pain, there's always a little version of you that just wants to be hugged and be told everything's alright. But which it's okay to nurture that side of you, but that side is not going to get certain things done. Yeah, because it just wants to be taken care of. And I've I've got this theory if you mother if you mother a man for too long, he will show you a boy. But the reason being, like I said, a lot most of us just want to be told it's gonna be okay. Most of us do, yeah. But but we can that can be intoxicating. You can stay in there a bit too long and forget how strong you are. It's so easy, so easy for your mind to just remind you about how many times you've failed. You know what I mean? And and you and it will trick your body into thinking you can't do it. Yeah, you know, so yeah. It's just it's just knowing what is best for you and understanding it's okay to feel this way, but it's not okay to feel like this for a month. SPEAKER_02: 51:44 Yeah. Yeah. SPEAKER_03: 51:46 Because people love me out there, and then and and they're gonna be worried sick about me, and you know, yeah, it's definitely not therapy. SPEAKER_01: 51:54 I had to sit there with my best friend, and he was just didn't, he was like, I don't, I'm, I don't know what else I can do. Like, I don't know what else I can do to help you. Like, you've been in this, you've been like this. I was just sad for such a long time, like broken for such a long time. And every day, and it was must have been it was exhausting for me, it must have been it must have been like exhausting for him as well. And we just sat there and like like cried our eyes out. He was just like, I don't know how to help you anymore. Like, I don't know what else I can do, and it just it was like breaking his heart that he couldn't help me. Yeah, and I think it comes back to you've just got to want it, you've got to at some point you can have a support network, but actually sometimes it's it's in you, you've got to decide right, it's time, it's time to it's time to change, it's time to do something about this, yeah. SPEAKER_03: 52:43 And I think Les Brown said it very so this so I I got a few speakers who I have listened to and have helped in different sort of situations in my life. Les Brown to me was amazing because he's been through so much, he was always called he had a twin and he was always called the dumb twin. And if you look at this guy on stage, he's he's older now, he doesn't do much speaking, but if you look at his older stuff, he's always smiling and he's always laughing. And he and he says someone's opinion of you does not necessarily need to be your reality. And that was very, very uh powerful to me, especially at the time. Your friend was there saying, I don't know how to help you. I've been there in tears, and my friends didn't know how to help me. But then you sometimes you have to sometimes you need to hold on to the faith that other people have for you until you have it for yourself. You know, like sometimes sitting there trying to figure out is not the right way to do it. Sometimes things happen and you're not gonna figure it out because there's no reasonable, rational explanation for everything. So analyzing it, overanalyzing isn't always good. Sometimes you just need to get up, try new things, meet different people, and find out who you are now. Because the person who you were then is no longer exist. Because, like I said, that the analogy about the dams, yeah, that dam doesn't work anymore. You're growing, and you know, I mean, different levels create different devils. So when you come out of your comfort zone and grow, you will find another comfort zone, and you have to outgrow that and outgrow that. That's that's what life is. Life is an endurance game. So you you can't you just gotta be very, very honest with yourself, yeah. And then we can teach our children to be honest with themselves and understand even though this situational thing makes you feel good and makes you ignore the pain for the moment, in the long run, it's just gonna hurt you. Yeah, not everything that feels good is good for you, and not everything that feels bad is bad for you. It's just something that we need to learn as we grow, in my opinion. SPEAKER_01: 55:10 Yeah, I think that's I mean that's really deep. It's really it's really it's really interesting. I mean, you've given me so much to think about. So thank you for that. SPEAKER_03: 55:20 Oh, I'll gotta say, I hope that's a good thing. SPEAKER_01: 55:22 No, it's definitely a good thing. It's definitely a good thing. Like, I've made so many, like my page now is full of full of notes of things that you've said, and I'm like, yeah, I'm like, wow. I'm like, this has been such an interesting, such an interesting conversation. I'm so grateful you've taken the time to come and talk to me. SPEAKER_03: 55:40 No worries, bro. I'm glad I can help in some sort of way, anytime. SPEAKER_00: 55:43 It's definitely not therapy. SPEAKER_01: 55:45 So I usually like to end on a bit more of a lighter note. If you've got a joke or something funny that made you laugh recently, I'd just like to end on something a bit a bit lighter than the heavy stuff. SPEAKER_03: 55:55 One of my pupils is ADHD and he's not as high functioning as I am. I kept trying to teach him the buying point of the car so he knows how to pull away. Yeah. And it crushing himself when he um talks. But now, every time he does it good, he always screams out, safe. You know, like on uh baseball. Yeah, he says it exactly like that. Every time he goes, he goes, Yes, like we just laugh, we we laugh at it now. So every time he does something right, I'll say, What is it? He goes, Safe, and I go, Yes, you know what I mean? Nice, like it's I I love it. SPEAKER_01: 56:38 Oh, that's brilliant! That's really nice to hear. Well, Ian, thank you so much, mate. I really, really appreciate it, and you've really gone on to kind of change people's lives, so I'm sure you're really, really proud of yourself. You've obviously gone through some hardships, but I'm glad that you're doing so well. SPEAKER_03: 56:56 Thanks, bro. Same to you. SPEAKER_01: 56:58 Thank you for your time, mate. It was such a pleasure talking to you, genuinely. And yeah, man, keep in touch and uh we'll speak soon. SPEAKER_00: 57:04 Cool. SPEAKER_01: 57:05 Thank you, mate. Take care. SPEAKER_00: 57:08 It's definitely not therapy. SPEAKER_01: 57:10 What a guy. I think the lesson here is you do have to change your mindset. It's in you to do it, you can do it. It's changing your mindset, and it's looking at what does this look like? What does a happy version of me look like? What does a successful version of me look like? When we get into this rut of just thinking about how sad we are, how bad things are going, all we're thinking about is what that looks like or what else is going to happen next. And I believe that you what you put out into the world will come back, and it will come back tenfold. And I'm the first to say I was just putting negativity out in the world for such a long time. And still now I struggle, still, still some days I struggle. I don't mind admitting that. You'll look across my social media platforms, you'll know what mood I'm in for the most part. It's a mixture. Some days are good, some days are bad. But I do wear my heart on my sleeve, and I will share that. But I do take on board a lot of what Ian said. And if you're sat there and you're going through anything that can relate to what Ian said or anything that I've been through, then maybe take some of the advice. Listen, start taking steps, even if they're baby steps, start taking steps. That's it for this episode of Definitely Not Therapy. And if you cried, laughed, smiled, or just felt slightly uncomfortable, then we've done our job. Make sure to follow, subscribe, leave a review if you can, and perhaps share this with someone who feels alone right now. Because that might make them just feel less alone. There's someone else going through the same thing as them. Whatever your story might be, whether it's co-parenting issues, divorce, breakups, heartbreak, anything, anything that goes unspoken, things that you feel like you can't talk about, come and talk to me about them. Let's help to spread some awareness. All you need to do is email me at only dance at gmail.com or DM me on any of my social media platforms, Dan Lawrence on Facebook, Dan Lawrence Comedy on Instagram, or definitely not Therapy Pod on Instagram. I'm Dan Lawrence and I'll see you next time. make it really good and title please