From Bullied to Broken to Brave: Dan’s Heart-Breaking Journey Through Self-Harm and Healing

What if courage isn’t about lifting the heaviest weight, staying silent, or pretending you’re fine — but about saying four simple words: “I’m struggling right now.”

In this episode of Definitely Not Therapy, host Dan Lawrence sits down with another Dan — just twenty-two years old — whose story is painfully familiar to thousands of young men who’ve been told to “man up.” His journey takes us from teenage bullying and emotional isolation to the quiet resilience of learning how to ask for help in the only way he could: through words on a screen when his voice refused to come out.

This is not a polished TED Talk or a celebrity self-help session. This is the raw, unfiltered story of an ordinary young man trying to survive an extraordinary weight.

🌪️ A Childhood of Chaos and Silence

Dan’s life began with disruption. Adopted as a baby, he grew up never knowing his biological parents — a wound that sat quietly in the background until his teenage years began to fracture. At school, he became a target: bullied, cornered, and humiliated not just in classrooms but in his own neighbourhood. Every walk to school felt like walking into battle.

When he tried to defend himself, the system turned on him. Teachers labelled him the problem, punishments piled up, and the message was clear: keep quiet. Each attempt to speak out only confirmed the idea that his feelings didn’t matter — that speaking up would make things worse.

By fourteen, Dan had learned the most dangerous lesson many boys are still taught: that showing pain is weakness. That “man up” means shut up.

🩸 The Breaking Point

Behind closed doors, the silent battles turned into visible scars. Isolated, unseen, and exhausted, Dan started to hurt himself — not to seek attention, but to release pressure that had nowhere else to go.

When his mum noticed something was wrong, the conversation fell flat. “Are you okay?” came too late, too shallow. There was love, but not understanding. “If it was that easy to talk,” Dan says, “I’d have done it the first time.”

It’s the part of men’s mental health that rarely gets airtime: the failed first attempts. The conversations that don’t land. The silence that follows when someone tries to open up and meets confusion, fear, or discomfort instead of safety.

He carried that silence for years.

💔 “You’re Not Even My Son”

Adoption left Dan with questions he could never quite answer — but nothing could prepare him for the moment those words were thrown in his face. A heated family clash turned cruel when one of his adoptive parents snapped: “You’re not even my son.”

In a split second, the foundation cracked. The anger exploded outward; damage was done. Later that night, alone, he broke again — this time inward. “Maybe I was never meant to be here,” he remembers thinking.

And then came the social media post — a photo of the damage he’d caused, captioned with the words ‘Shame it wasn’t him.’

That moment pushed him to the edge.

He walked into school the next day ready to fight anyone, not because he hated them — but because he couldn’t bear himself. He was angry, lost, and desperate to be noticed by a world that had told him he didn’t matter.

📱 Finding a Different Language for Pain

Years later, something changed.

Dan met someone who didn’t ask him to talk — she asked if he could text.

It sounds small, but for Dan, it was revolutionary. Texting became a safe space between the panic and the words. He poured out years of bottled-up emotion through a screen — the bullying, the self-harm, the shame, the loneliness. He expected rejection. Instead, she replied with just eight words that changed everything:
 “It’s okay. I’m here for you.”

No lectures. No forced empathy. Just pr

Transcript

 SPEAKER_01: 0:00 Welcome to Definitely Not Therapy, the show where I speak to real people and they tell real stories and they share a real vulnerability. It's raw, it's honest. And I'll try and make you think along the way. I'll try and make you laugh along the way. I might make you cry along the way. There's probably times I'll make you swear along the way as well. We're gonna talk about all life's highs, we're gonna talk about all life's lows, we're gonna talk about all the bits in between, the things that we probably shouldn't talk about, the things we shouldn't say out loud, but we're gonna say them anyway. We're gonna talk about them anyway, because that's the way that you get change. I'm Dan Lawrence, and let's get into it. SPEAKER_00: 0:42 This is definitely not therapy. It's definitely not therapy. SPEAKER_01: 1:03 So in this episode of Definitely Not Therapy, I'll be speaking to Dan. Dan struggled with his mental health from the age of 16. 16 years old. Can you at 16 you're still a child. And he's navigating a mental health journey. He's only 22 now. But in his own words, what a hell of a journey. What a hell of a journey. I, for one, I'm grateful that Dan has decided to come and share his story on the podcast. I want to find out how bad it got. I want to find out how low he got, and I want to find out why. But I also want to find out how he's doing now and how he got to where he is and what that journey's been like. The highs and the lows. Unfiltered. It's really important for men to talk. It's really important for anyone to talk about mental health, especially about men's mental health, because there's a stigma attached to it. There's a stigma attached to men's mental health where men can't talk, men shouldn't talk. We're going to buck that trend. Men should talk. Men should absolutely be talking about their mental health and their emotions. And they should be sharing, and we should be leaning on each other, and we should be helping each other. We should be there to support each other. Danny's only 22 and he's had his fair share of struggles already at the age of 22. And I believe that we need to help this generation of young men. We need to buck that trend now for change. Because the last 100 years, or however long, back to caveman times, well, man up. Just man up, just get on with it. And there is a version of man up that is okay. There is a version of that that is okay. The version of man up that is okay is when it's your friends who are giving you the right advice and they're telling it to you in a way that is safe to do so, but is helpful. In my opinion, it takes more of a man to stand up and to say, Do you know what? I'm struggling. I'm struggling, I need help. It takes a braver man to tell his friend I'm struggling than it does to be able to go to the gym and be the one that lifts the heaviest weight. There's a place for that. There's a place for exercise when it comes to mental health. I'm on that journey myself. But just because you've got a six-pack doesn't mean that you're the strongest man in the room. It doesn't mean you're the bravest man in the room. The bravest man in the room could be overweight, could be shy, could be quiet. But do you know what? He might have stood up that day and told his best friend, I need help. So let's welcome Dan onto the podcast. SPEAKER_00: 3:35 It's definitely not therapy. SPEAKER_01: 3:37 Hi Dan. SPEAKER_00: 3:39 Hello, how are you? SPEAKER_01: 3:41 Not bad, how are you? SPEAKER_02: 3:43 Yeah, not so bad, thanks, money. To be fair, it feels a bit surreal because I feel like I want to put your content on Facebook, this, that, and the other, and it just feels a bit thrilled that I'm talking to you. SPEAKER_01: 3:52 You know, I appreciate the support and I appreciate your following, so thank you for that. SPEAKER_03: 3:55 Yeah, you're welcome. SPEAKER_01: 3:56 You'll you won't want to follow me after. You'll be like, no, yeah, I've had enough of Dan now. SPEAKER_02: 4:02 I'm sure I won't be, I'm sure I won't be. But it was it it was it was something different reading, obviously our email exchange high down from yeah. It was it was something else. SPEAKER_01: 4:12 But well I'm really pleased, and I'm pleased that you I'm pleased that you applied not applied, but like showed your interest to want to be on the podcast because a lot of the people I've I've had on, and it's not I don't want to make it about age, but you're a younger guy. You're only what are you 22 we were you? SPEAKER_02: 4:33 Yeah, 22, yeah. SPEAKER_01: 4:34 It it's like it's it's a lot of the people I've been speaking to are from an older generation, and I actually think that it's the younger generation that we need to really help to be able to buck the trend to kind of spread awareness. SPEAKER_02: 4:48 Yeah, I mean, obviously, as you said, we'll get into it. Well, obviously, we start recording that, but I've yeah, I'll tell you all about my experience and obviously at what age it actually did start because it wasn't 22. SPEAKER_00: 5:02 It's definitely not therapy. SPEAKER_01: 5:04 Okay, look, Dan, as you know, we've spoken briefly, and the whole point of this podcast is that I speak to a different stranger on every single episode. I think it's important to speak to kind of real people that have been through real struggles. I think that for me is so much more relatable. As an example, you know, there's a lot of podcasts out there, and a lot of videos that go viral are based on millionaires or billionaires or celebrities, and they're talking about their struggles, and I get that everyone's got struggles, it doesn't matter if you've got fame or money or what everyone's got struggles. Personally, I find it harder to relate to someone who's got millions of pounds in the bank. I can relate more, and the thing that sort of helped me when I was struggling was actually talking to just people that have been in the exact same situation as me. So I'm hoping by talking to real people, people like yourself, Dan, that when you share your story, someone sitting there can perhaps think, do you know what? I'm in that situation, or I feel like he felt and he's come out the other side. I just think that's gonna be more helpful and it's gonna help spread awareness for people that may need to just hear some of the things that we're gonna talk about on the podcast. If you can tell me a little bit about yourself, Dan, just a bit of a kind of a a bit of an icebreaker so we get a bit of a sense of who you are, and then we'll maybe delve into the the sort of more deeper stuff and uh a bit more about your story after, if that's okay. SPEAKER_02: 6:32 Yeah, that's fine, yeah. So I mean I'm 22 years of age. I mean, currently for a day job, uh I do work for a train company. I'm not allowed to say which operator. No, that's fine. Um but I do work for a train company, just in general, customer service, just help helping people travel about our network day to day if anything goes wrong, and sort of the the the first point of contact. And as I say, it can be anything, it could be from a from a train cancellation to to a train delay or even something sometimes something's not gone right and then they want to complain about it. That's sort of what what I do. SPEAKER_01: 7:08 Okay. Um do you like the side of it of of helping people? SPEAKER_02: 7:11 Is that is that yeah, yeah. So I've always been a person where if I can I will I will go and help someone, and if I can't, then I will go out of my way and find a way to help them. Okay. Because in a job such as mine, I look at it as well, what if I was in that position? Or or what if what if my behalf was in that permission uh position, sorry, or what if my mum was in that position. SPEAKER_01: 7:38 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 7:38 Um and and and that's really why I do the job that I do. SPEAKER_01: 7:42 I mean it's a good way to look at it. It I I think there definitely needs to be more people like you in that kind of industry because there's been so many times. I mean, this isn't a rant, this isn't a podcast about rants, but there's been so many times where you just feel as a customer you're just not cared about at all. And it's just like you're just a number and just move on. So actually to have someone that that does care and does want to go out of their way, that make that that can make a real difference to someone's day. SPEAKER_02: 8:10 It does, it does. I we have like this feedback thing that people can tell out after the call or whatever it or whatever channel it may be that they communicate to me on, but I genuinely find they communicate to me directly and say, Oh look, you've you've you've been really helpful, that there needs to be more people like you. Uh can I deal with you every single time? And it pains me to say no. SPEAKER_01: 8:32 And I'm sure I mean it's good that you're positive about that, and you should, if you work hard and you're passionate about your job, why not feel you should feel that, you should embrace that, you should enjoy that. You should celebrate that. SPEAKER_02: 8:43 Yeah, absolutely. I do try and and and make a difference within within my organization. At the end of the day, uh I'm gonna do what I can, and if I can't, then I will do it anyway. Yeah. Uh because that's that's the sort of person I am. SPEAKER_01: 8:57 I think it's about having that sense of you can go home and know that actually you've you've made a difference today, you've done something that's helped someone, or you've changed someone's opinion about customer services in general. I think it's just about that self-worth. I think sometimes we can get sort of bogged down with what other people think of us, and I'm definitely one for it. But back when I was an estate agent and I loved my job, I loved my job, I loved the company I work for. But there was, you know, it's like it's it's a tough job, it's hard, but I made sure as often as I could I'd be the person that instead of putting that call off until tomorrow, because it's home time, I'd stay and I'd make that call, and I'd be the one that would stay after, and I'd know I'd be able to go home knowing I put a fair shift in today. I've earned my money today, I've earned my worth today. And it's quite a feeling, really. SPEAKER_00: 9:49 It's definitely not therapy. SPEAKER_02: 9:51 If you look at the problems too much, it has a negative impact, or it does on me, it has a negative impact, like, oh, I've got to go to work today, this can go. SPEAKER_01: 9:59 Yeah, yeah, I guess it can do. I guess it's good that you don't you don't seem to have that attitude. You seem to have the attitude of you come out of it thinking I've helped someone or I've been positive today or I've made a difference, which can be hard because it's you can, you know, you could you could have a an easy day and you might get one or two calls that are a bit tricky. You might have a day, I mean, I don't know, obviously exact like the details, but you could have a day where you might get 20, 30, 40 calls and they're all stressful back to back, and that can have a real toll on your on your kind of mental health. SPEAKER_02: 10:28 Absolutely. I mean, I took I was there for three months. I I was three months into the position and I took 62 calls, and out of those sixty-two calls, twenty-five were just not it. SPEAKER_01: 10:41 Oh really? SPEAKER_02: 10:41 They were just they were just not it, yeah. And they got me down, and you know, they made me feel like I shouldn't be in this job that some you know someone else should be doing it. And and I didn't didn't show my emotion during the phone call, I stayed professional, but then I hung that phone up and and and and that was the end of it, really, for me. Wow. Wow. I just had to let it out because I've learned as as as wife as or as my life respond, so to speak, yeah, I can't bottle things up. SPEAKER_03: 11:12 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 11:16 I'm gonna you know, I'm not very good at talking to people, I'm not very good at sitting down with someone saying, Oh, look, this has gone off today, be it work, relationship, whatever. I I'm not good at that. SPEAKER_03: 11:27 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 11:27 Um always bottling it up. SPEAKER_01: 11:30 But that's what we're here to change. That's what we're here to change because you're not on your own with that, you're not on your own with that at all. And a lot of people, I would say, a lot of men especially, there is a stigma attached to speaking up. And one of the reasons I looked through your kind of application to come on the pod, and I it was your age and the what you'd been through in terms of you'd had mental health struggles from the age of 16, and I just thought I need to speak to this guy because I think we need to change, we need to bug the trend with the younger generation, yeah. Being people like yourselves, and I I I think you you guys have it hard because you've probably not grown up and known anything different than what it is, but I get that's the same, you know, for us older, you know. I'm in my 40s now, early, like I've just turned 41, but it's like we come from a generation of man up, we come from a generation of you don't talk about it, you just you know, pull your socks up and get on with it, kind of thing. You just you just keep your emotions in. Whereas I think we need to change that trend and we need to get people talking more, and that starts that starts with the younger generation, really. So tell me then, Dan, a little bit about you, your story sort of leading up to 16. What was your sort of childhood like? SPEAKER_02: 12:53 I mean, I didn't have that all of a good upbringing, to be to be honest. Things were things were a mess, it was all over the place. See, I'm adopted, so I never knew my real parents. So my adoptive parents, they brought me up for the best part of 14 years, I say. And then after 14, things started sort of going downhill. And it wasn't until I turned 16 that things just just just got like worse. At that point I was in high school and I'd been getting at high school and just out. I I could walk out of my house. And because like everyone that who I went to high school with, we all live quite close together. We all knew each other. SPEAKER_03: 13:49 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 13:50 I could walk out of my front door and I could be called every name under the sun. And I'd carry on the following day at school to the point where they'd turn into physical uh physical altercations. I would retaliate for the sake of sticking up for myself because I, you know, I had the mentality of I don't deserve that, no one deserves it. Unfortunately, uh it wasn't it wasn't sort of poised that way. I I was seen as the bad guy, I was the one seen starting everything. So that made me to start bottling things up and and not telling anyone, not telling, not going home, not telling my parents, not telling the safeguarding team at school because I'm the bad guy at the end of the day. Or that's what it felt like. So why would I talk up? SPEAKER_01: 14:40 So because so every time you did talk up, you were the one that was you basically you were you were punished for it. You were the one that looked they was like, Well, you're the troublemaker. SPEAKER_02: 14:50 Yeah. Yeah. So every time I retaliated and I end up to I did do whatever I did to him. Yeah, I did because but but but this is the reason why. And and and and I was always punished for it. I always said, Oh, oh, or you shouldn't have you you shouldn't have retaliated, but you should have come and spoke to one of us. But it shouldn't have even got to that point anyway. SPEAKER_03: 15:15 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 15:16 And if they were going to talk down to me when I am owning up or I am trying to tell them that this is what happened and this is why, how are they going to react if I didn't do that? See, I I I always think that nobody cares about mental health until it's too late, be it in the sense of not being here no more. SPEAKER_03: 15:39 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 15:39 Um or or be it in the sense of, you know, get admitted to hospital. And again, you know, this is my own outlook, everyone will obviously have a different opinion. But it's only when those two situations occur that people actually think, oh yeah, do you know what? Maybe they did struggle. SPEAKER_03: 15:58 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 15:59 Maybe we could have asked what was wrong. And no one did with me. I you could see it on my face that there's not up with him. He's not his normal bubbly self. But no one bothered asking, or how are you? Or or or what's bothering you? Come and talk to me. Yeah. They just all shot off. So I thought to myself, well, do you know what? If no one's gonna bother with me, why why should I bother with them? Why why should I bother going out of my way and telling people how I actually feel? So I'll just not bother. SPEAKER_01: 16:28 But that's quite isolating though, isn't it? So you so you must have felt like you just had no support network really around you, or the or your synopsis. SPEAKER_02: 16:37 Yeah, that is that is how it felt. I I couldn't go home, I couldn't tell my parents. Because I guess in one aspect as well, I was afraid of having that difficult conversation with my parents, like, oh, I'm struggling with my mental health. I'm coming to you because I can't go to the safeguarding team at school because they're brushing it off. And I didn't want to make things worse. I guess I didn't want to make things worse for myself because I knew if I had that difficult conversation, then there'd be a phone call to the school, they'd drag me in, they'd try and get me to talk about it, and I wouldn't want to talk about it because every time I tried to, they brushed me off. So I started to blame myself for it. That this is all my fault, you know. I I I should have done this, I should have done that, but I still didn't do anything, I still didn't act upon it. SPEAKER_01: 17:29 But the f but but you see, this is hard, it's hard to listen to because you're a 14-year-old kid. You're a child at that at that time, and yeah, do you know what there might have been things that maybe you should have done differently, but how are you to know that if you haven't got an adult or a responsible adult to guide you? SPEAKER_02: 17:53 Yeah, I get that. I mean, I I can now I am the age I am, but looking back on my 14, 15, 16 year old self, I can see that. I can see, yeah, do you know what? It's not entirely my fault because I didn't know what I was I was doing. I didn't know how to ask for help. I had parents, I had supposed to be a safeguarding team that that that that that didn't know what to do and and they chose not to. I can see that now, but but back then I I I couldn't and I was alone for for ages. I I kept things to myself. And it was only when I got with my with my first partner that I tried to talk to things I tried to talk things to her about about everything. And I told her some aspects of my life that I never dreamed of even bringing up again. And it was kind of an opening, you know, it was kind of an opening into the right, okay, this happened, so it could have caused this, but in essence, this should have happened. But I again I never I never sought professional help, I never sought counseling, I never did any of that because I didn't know how. Yeah. And I wasn't strong enough. I wasn't strong enough to to to to put my hand up and say, actually, yeah, do you know what? I've got a mental health problem and I need help. I wasn't strong enough. And it was always it was always told to me that the asking for help, men especially, and I know obviously this is the reason for the podcast, you know, to show people you know, to show men mostly that you're not alone. But I was told that I've got to have the mentality of suck it up and crack on with it. SPEAKER_03: 19:44 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 19:46 And and that's what I did for for for years and years and years. Up until the point where I went through an even more difficult time. Um and I started doing other things. Um hurting myself, I'll just put it like that. SPEAKER_01: 20:04 Well, just so just before we get onto that, so you you so what age were you when you spoke to your your partner at the time? SPEAKER_02: 20:14 So I had just turned 16. SPEAKER_01: 20:17 Okay. So you say that see that's an early age to even think to yourself uh initially, okay, I'm not gonna sp I'm not gonna talk about this, I'm gonna lock this one in a box and I'm gonna I'm not gonna talk about it, to then bring it up and open that box. And you know, I'm so I'm certainly not an expert, but was that was that a kind of a not a cry for help necessarily, but that what maybe that was you asking for help was was was explaining what you've gone from. I mean what made you at that point decide I'm gonna tell this person these things that are hard to talk about. SPEAKER_02: 20:58 It was seeing how my partner was like living. So to the point that she had a mum and she had a dad, and she had a a normal family, whatever a normal family is. But the fact is she had a support network, she had a mum, she had a dad, she had two well, she's she she had three brothers but lived with two of them. So she wasn't alone, so she could go to any one of them and say, Look, mum, dad, I've I've I've got a problem. And when I saw that happen for the first time, I thought, you know what? That's all like I I just want someone who I can turn around to and say, I've I've got a not necessarily a problem, but I'm struggling. SPEAKER_01: 21:41 Yeah. Yeah. You just wanted to be able to talk, you wanted to be able to open up and just have a at the very minimum a conversation to get kind of get it off your your chest. A problem, probab what is it, a problem shared is a problem halved or whatever it the saying is. SPEAKER_02: 21:55 Yeah, absolutely. And and I guess like you said, I I guess you could say it was it was my cry for help. It wasn't a definite, it was just okay, I'm giving a hint that something's wrong. Can someone pick up on it, please? Because I don't know how else to turn around and and and and say the words, I need help. So instead I I kind of deflected it by by by bringing up all the other stuff that I never dreamed of doing. All the other stuff that I never dreamed of bringing up. SPEAKER_01: 22:28 Yeah. Um I think everyone is gonna have their own way of doing it. I think I mean, first of all, the fact that you were of that that kind of age, 16, and you're still at the point of that's when you're gonna start talking about it, that's quite a mature thing. You're obviously aware within yourself that actually, do you know what? Maybe I have got some some struggles here. I I think it is hard. I I there's probably so many things I did that were a cry for help, and a lot of them I just didn't realise. I remember one of them stands out to me. I was it was a lot had happened. I was on my honeymoon, which is obviously a sore subject, but I remember I'd had this song stuck in my head. It was a it was it was a guy called Dax, and it was a video called To Be a Man, and it was like a this long medley, it was like a 15-minute song, and it's all about men's mental health. And I listened to it and it just hit me, and I remember sort of showing my partner at the time, I was like, Oh, look at this video, and and I think that was my cry for help, like no, like this is like I'm relating to this song, like notice me, listen to me. And it didn't, it didn't. I think I felt like a more of a burden by doing that. In the end, it didn't, it didn't help. But again, that's part of the reason for this podcast and to to kind of speak about these topics, which are raw, I'm sure they're raw for you to talk about, they're raw for me to talk about, certainly. But I think we need to I think we need to talk talk about it. But yeah, sorry, but so back to back back to you anyway. Sorry, I've taken over there a bit. SPEAKER_02: 24:11 No, it's fine. I think as as important it is for me to to explain my story, I think it's important for you as well, especially if it helps you because you know you said that it it helps us to talk to somebody, so you don't you you don't need to apologize at all. I I appreciate it. But yeah, so we got to the point where that cry for help didn't didn't work. My partner at the time was just thought that I was just saying stuff that had that had gone on and didn't really affect me. SPEAKER_01: 24:43 Okay. SPEAKER_02: 24:44 But but she felt as if I needed to make her aware for the sake of it sort of thing. When that didn't work as a as as as I was saying, I resorted to other means of cries for help. SPEAKER_01: 24:57 Yeah. Is it still at the same age, the age of 16, with the same person? SPEAKER_02: 25:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah, with the same person. Same age. And I remember it as if it was yesterday. So I had hurt myself. And I went into into school the next day. And I remember that I had I I I had sports that day. SPEAKER_01: 25:25 And I didn't want to do it for the sake of getting changed and so people finding out, people, people notes in and finding out, and then you've got to that's another thing you've got to explain or justify. SPEAKER_02: 25:42 Yeah. So I made out like I didn't have my sports kit with me. And I turned around and says, I've I don't have my sports kit, I can't do it. And the teacher turned around to me and he says, No, it's fine. He says, Well, rend yourself. And when he turned around to me and said that, my heart just sank. SPEAKER_03: 26:03 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 26:03 And it was it was a summer's day, so t-shirt, shorts, that's all he needed. SPEAKER_01: 26:08 Couldn't get away with a hoodie. SPEAKER_02: 26:10 But I turned around to him and I said to him, Look, sir, can I have a can I have a jacket? I'm I'm I'm feeling cold. I wasn't, I was roasting. But again, I didn't want anyone to find out, to justify it, to explain it, yeah, to unpack all that. I didn't want to unpack it. And so he says, he he looked at me and says, Are you sure? I said, Yeah, I'll I want I want the jacket. So I I I got changed, I put the jacket on, everything was fine. And then we went in and we did swaps, and I remember falling over and the arm of the jacket had had had had came up, it had ridden up my arm and made everything apparent. And someone looked over at me. They must have saw it, but they didn't come to check on me. If I was okay, they didn't, they didn't they didn't do anything. Instead they went to the teacher and they must have told them because I went home that day and my mum turned round to me and she said have a look at your aunt. And I said, No, I don't I I don't I don't want to. She says she says she says why I said I just I just don't want to, I've got I've got I've got schoolwork I need to be getting on with. I didn't but I was deflecting. Yeah and she was like, So you're okay then? Like just like that, just after me giving her an excuse of I've got schoolwork, I'll say you're okay. And that hurt me because she was pushing and pushing. And then I made up an excuse and then it was almost as if she completely moved on. Yeah I just wanted to run out of the hour and five. And and and that was out for the rest of the night. And it wasn't until two weeks later that she actually found out what I'd done. And she sat down with me. She spoke to me and she said, you know what, what's made you feel like this? But I couldn't talk, I wasn't I wasn't strong enough to open up and say, Look, all this goes on. I get I get bullied. If I get bullied in the street, it carries on to the next day to school. I wasn't I wasn't strong enough to say any of that. So so I again I just put up another excuse. And and and she let it go. She was like, alright, okay. Well if if she says if you feel like that again, come and talk to them. If it was that easy, yeah, I would have died the first time. And I felt like she didn't understand that. Which, you know, of course it's not it's not her fault. Again, it's a different generation. She's been brought up to to to think one thing, and obviously I would be I was being brought up with all these struggles, but also to be told don't do anything with it. Yeah. Because it's it's it's embarrassing and and you're a man and and you should be strong and you shouldn't show emotion and you shouldn't do that. That's what I was brought up with. SPEAKER_01: 29:06 It's also not being given the tools to do something with it, and I think that's where we fall short in the education. I think you know, one, the mental health system in this country is overstretched by miles anyway. You just need to watch any of the like 999 TV shows with ambulance drivers and they're like mental health services they've sent us again, and we're not trained, and we've got to help these people. People need help. But I think if we can start, you know, I don't I don't know, I don't have all the answers, but I don't think anyone does. I think that's the problem. But I think we can start at the kind of root of the cause and we can kind of educate people and give people the tools to deal with things like what you've been through, then actually you'd mental health is is you know it's an it's an illness, so it's not like you're just gonna be. Like, oh okay, I've spoken to someone and I'm over that now, but it might give you the tools and the things that people can use on a daily basis to make themselves be able to get up and like go after the day and attack the day and feel good about themselves and feel positive. I don't know. I don't know. SPEAKER_02: 30:18 No, absolutely, absolutely. I I I I get exactly what you mean. If if we all had the tools, then it wouldn't it wouldn't get to the stages that it gets to. Yeah. Oh I mean, I mean maybe it would, you know, like you said, everyone is different. But but but if we had like I don't know, like some core things that that that that magically worked for everyone, it could then branch off into you know, again, what works for you, what doesn't. SPEAKER_01: 30:43 Yeah. Um I think I think one thing that does work, I think I I think sorry to interrupt you, Dan. I think one thing that does work that I'm seeing a lot more of from doing this podcast is talking. Talking does help. Talking is such a simple tool, but it does help. And some people want to talk publicly, some people will be you've obviously gone through it, but you're obviously at a point in your life where you're you're confident enough now, brave enough to come and do something like this, whereas a lot of people aren't. But there are a lot of clubs out there, and there's there's Andy's Man Club, who is one of the biggest suicide prevention charities in the country, they do incredible work, and I've spoken to so many men, and the hardest thing to do is to walk through the door, but once you're through the door, it can change your life because then you've got an immediate support network and you've got somewhere where you can just talk, and I think that's all a lot of people need, they just need to be able to talk and get it off their chest, and then that's enough for them to actually move on with their day. And I know one of the one of the tools that Andy's Man Club uses from because I had I had someone that is a facilitator for them on a couple of days ago, and it was kind of like they remember something about everyone every every week, so you feel like you come back and it's like, Oh, how was this during the week? And it makes you feel ah, someone cares enough to ask me, and it's such a little thing, it could be such a tiny little thing, but it's enough sometimes to make you think someone cares, some someone cares. SPEAKER_02: 32:13 Yeah, absolutely. It's uh it's quite ironic, really, that you did pick up on Andy's man club because the organization that I work for, we actually do partnerships with them as well. Oh really? Yeah, and I I remember we all just just as part of our core training, because as you can imagine at the railway some calls that difficult, but as part of our core training, we did have have a workshop with them. And I walked in and I sat down and they started going on about mental health and and and and suicide and self-harm, and you know, all all all the struggles that come with mental health, I guess. And I just walked out, I couldn't do it. SPEAKER_03: 32:57 Really? SPEAKER_02: 32:57 Because it was it was bringing up everything that I'd been through. I know I needed to do it, but I couldn't ready. I wasn't ready to to sit there and listen to everything that that I had been through myself. So I remember I I uh I got up and I says, Look, I'm so sorry, but I can't do this. Uh and I walked out and my manager came after me and he says, Look, are you okay? He says, You you you you don't look okay. And I says, No, I'm not okay. I says, but I can't talk about it. I says, I I I don't do talking to people that that I don't know but well enough. SPEAKER_03: 33:43 Yeah. Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 33:45 I I I just can't do it. And he gave me our mental health. We we have a like uh an employee program that we use for for mental health. And he gave me the number and he says, ring that. He says, talk to them. And and at that point, I felt like he's not listening to me. Because I turned around to him, and I know I'm going off on a tangent, but I'll get back to it shortly. I turned around to him and says, I can't sit in a room and listen to all that. I can't turn around and talk to you because I'm not ready. And you turn around to me and tell me to talk to these strangers. SPEAKER_01: 34:25 Yeah. Your whole thing was I don't I can't sit and talk about my problems in front of strangers. So what's the here's a number, talk to another stranger. It's just it's just part it's passing the buck, which is what and look, I understand it. I'm not gonna judge, I don't know that guy or what that guy's gone through. I think it's how to deal with that, what to say, because actually, if someone is really struggling, the weight on I guess his shoulders at that at that moment, you don't you don't know, you don't know. He might have been thinking, right, if I say the wrong thing and something happens to this lad, I can't live with myself. So and I'm making that extreme, I'm making an extreme scenario there to kind of give him a bit of a get out of jail free, but that's where the education comes in, and and I guess that's part of why and his man club were were part of that to help educate, but yeah, it's tough because you don't want to say the wrong thing, and I don't know. I don't know if there is a right or a wrong thing in that moment. You've but certainly the wrong thing, I guess, would be listening to you saying I don't want to talk to strangers. Oh, here's a number for another stranger, I go and talk to them. Like, that's obviously the worst thing to do in that situation, in my opinion. SPEAKER_02: 35:43 But I I felt like he had he had literally just not listened to a while after. SPEAKER_01: 35:48 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 35:49 I like what I felt I I felt what's the point. I I I had that, I had that what's the point feeling again. Yeah that I had when I was 16, 14, 15, 16. And that came back and I thought to myself, I'm not gonna go back to where I was. I don't know how I'm not gonna go back. But I'm not gonna go back, if that makes sense. So I tried the talking thing. Okay. Uh this this time to to my new so by by but by this point. Me and my other me and my first partner had had had finished done. That was tough as as well. I I've been with them for for six years, and it was just within and then it was within 24 hours, it was it was like it was nothing. And I shut myself away for for weeks on end. I didn't I didn't eat properly, I didn't didn't do didn't do any housework. I didn't go to work. I I got a doctor's note and and and I signed myself off sick for two months. Wow. For a six-year relationship, I signed myself off sick for two months, and even after those two months I wasn't ready, but I had to force myself to be ready because i i it it comes that point of right, my partner's not involved, so I've got to financially support myself. So I had to kind of force it, I guess, kind of force myself to be okay for the sake of of going back to to a previous job and and I guess you know, just just just half putting the effort in for the sake of for the sake of earning an income, for the sake of I guess trying to make me feel better. Which it did work for a bit. This time I turned around to my employer, again, a different employer. I turned around to him and said, Look, what mental health services do you offer? So at this point I was 17, 18. SPEAKER_01: 37:55 Okay. SPEAKER_02: 37:56 Um I says, What mental health services do you offer? And they says, What do you mean? I says, Well, can I talk to anyone? Do you have any like specialized people within the organization? Or is it just research and hope for the best? And she says, Oh, I don't quite know myself. So I reached out to to my boss's boss and I asked the same question. And I got shot in the foot for that. You should have gone to your team manager. You shouldn't have come to me. And I technology says, Well, I did go to my team manager, and and and they technique says, Oh, they don't know what they offer. I said, So what else am I supposed to do? I said, Because I've been in a situation I've been in a situation like this a few years ago. I said, and it ended up with me hurting myself and people still not not not caring. Yeah. Still brushing it off. So what else am I supposed to do? At this point I was in tears. Because yeah, I had gone so many years, you know, bottling it up. But I guess in a way it had finally caught up to me. And it was like everything I've bottled up from the ages of 14, 15, 16 is now coming to to to try and get me down when I'm in a stable job. And I didn't need that. So I took the initiative and I I tried talking once, was I say when I got shot down. So I thought, again, what's the point? What why why bother? So I didn't bother. So I had another couple of years worth of struggles on top of everything. And then I found my new partner, and she could tell that I wasn't right in the sense that something went wrong. It was this one particular day. So we'd been talking for a while and I'd been probably I've been my normal self. And she turned around to me and she says, Are you okay? And I said, Pardon. Because no one had asked me that before. SPEAKER_03: 40:04 Okay. SPEAKER_02: 40:05 And she says, Are you okay? I says Yeah. Again, deflecting. SPEAKER_01: 40:12 Uh yeah, uh deflecting and and possibly a bit defensive as well. SPEAKER_02: 40:16 Yeah. I didn't want to admit that I wasn't okay. So I didn't know how she was going to react. If she was going to just brush it off or or tell her and say, Oh, try talking to someone. So I says, No, I'm not I says yes, I'm okay. And she's like, You're not okay. I says, Yes, I am. I'm okay, just leave me alone. And she's like, No, you're not okay. You wouldn't you never tell me to leave you alone, you always want to talk to me. She says, No, you don't want to talk to me, so I can tell you now something is wrong with you. She says, and I'm going to sit here in silence until you're ready to tell me what's wrong with you. And I says, But I'm not going to tell you because I am not going to talk to you. I says, I've I physically cannot talk about what is wrong with me. And she says, Well that's fine. She says, What about texting? SPEAKER_03: 41:05 Wow. SPEAKER_02: 41:08 At that point I thought to myself, do you know what? Someone's actually listened to me. SPEAKER_01: 41:13 How how long were you together when this happened, if you don't mind me asking? Two months. Wow. See, that's can you the so that's such a high level of support and awareness in in such a short period of time. When you said that this and I know this is a deep story and it's a deep topic to talk about, but that that made me smile. Because I thought, what and I don't don't know this this person, but just what a lovely, what a caring, what a kind, caring, thoughtful thing to do. And you probably needed that more than anything in the world at that moment. SPEAKER_02: 42:01 Yeah. Because if she had talked around to me and said to me, talk to me again, it wouldn't have gone down well. But she turned around to me and she said, Well, what about texting? And it put a different perspective on life, like maybe I should give opening up a go. Maybe but but but maybe I should text about it because then I'm not feeling it, because then I'm not feeling what I'm saying. They're just words on a screen that in three weeks' time we will have texted that much. I won't remember it. Yeah. So I did exactly that. I I texted and I must have been texting her for three hours straight. Explaining from what I was foreseeing right up until the point when my employer tells me because oh, you shouldn't have come to me, you should have gone to your team manager about it. Because there was, you know, there's I've just touched on I've just touched on the surface what what I've been through. Because I'm obviously aware that podcasts are time constricted. But I've just touched on the surface, but I went into deep, deep context. And I went into a deep level as to what actually happened to me, what why I am the way I am. And she turned around to me with a one-liner, and it said, It's okay, I'm here for you. SPEAKER_03: 43:27 Wow. SPEAKER_02: 43:28 And that, although it wasn't a gigantic paragraph to say, I understand how you feel. In fact, I think if it if it was a giant paragraph saying I understand how you feel, yeah, it would have made things worse. SPEAKER_01: 43:40 But if it's undone everything you just said, that would have undone it. Because you can't imag you can't no one can say that. They might think that they're gonna say that to because that's the right thing to say. But what she's done here is she's actually listened. She's listened to you. You've said I'm not gonna talk about it. She said, Okay, well about she's found a solution. Listen to you, found a solution, and then she has listened, and then she's said, I'm here for you. Like, what a nice, what like that's just incredible. SPEAKER_02: 44:12 I said to her, I said I said to her, do you know that's the first time that someone's taken into me and said that. She says, No, it's not your line tomorrow. I says, No, I'm being serious. She says, What you've gone all those years with with no support, with bottling it up. I says, Yes, I did. I says, and and and and during that time, I says, to I guess to kind of cope with it, I says I resorted to to hurting myself because of it. And she turned around to me and she says, I've got one regret. And at this point, all that was going through my head was yeah, you you're now regretting listening to me, you're now regretting me telling you everything I've been through because I just told you that. I says, What's your regret? And she says to me, I regret not knowing you sooner to try and help you sooner. That's heartbreaking. She says, I'm not going to be able to help you because I I I can't understand you. She says, but what I can do is I can try and understand what makes you feel how you feel, and I can try and understand it for myself, so I don't do those things to make you in in in a worse place. And and at that point I I hung up on the phone to her and I just burst out crying and she texted me, she says, Are you okay? What what's wrong with you? And she wrung me back. SPEAKER_01: 45:41 She obviously really cared. She really she sounds like she really, really cared. SPEAKER_02: 45:44 Yeah. Which which hurts a little bit. Because I mean we're well into I mean we're not well into the relationship, we've been together a year and six months. But it hurts because there have been times where she's I she's told me when we first got together, I'll I'll I'll I'll listen to you so I know what not to do. And she's gone undone exactly those things. And it's kind of like, well, do you care about me or not? But I don't think that too much because if she didn't care about me, then I wouldn't be a year and a half into the relationship. And I you know, I know 22 is still a young age and there's obviously still I mean, you know, there's anyone that's that's in a rel and you know, I I know obviously you're to tell me if it's a a touchy subject, I know that there can be any amount of time when when a relationship can can go wrong. You know, and again I I don't mean that in a in a way that you know what I mean. SPEAKER_01: 46:57 No, I get it, I get it 100%. And I um yeah, I mean you're you're right, you can't. I think relationships take work and it is give and take, and it's it's I think from and this isn't me giving advice because I'm not a specialist in certainly in relationships, look at me, but if I can sort of say one thing, and that's okay, yeah, you you've you've struggled with your mental health and you've opened up, but it is about being understanding to the other side as well, and the fact that she was understanding when when you needed her to be, and the people people are people, people aren't ever going to be perfect, and there might be times where things slip or people forget because it's human nature, and it's I think about allowing that kind of that give and take, it's about allowing okay, rather than thinking, Well, does she know me at all? Does she care about me? She obviously does, and I think you know that she does because you've just said that, but it's just it's give and take, relationships take work, but it's also about appreciating appreciating them, even in the moments where you think this is hard or this is a tough thing to deal with, or this is a tough topic to talk about, whatever, because without being too dramatic, it could uh it could you could think uh listen, I I sat there and I was probably not in a not in a bad way, but I was probably felt like the most arrogant man in the world because I had everything I could have, everything I dreamed of. I had it. It was there. A beautiful wife, beautiful little girl, a stable home, an interesting job that gave me all this free time for my family, and just like that's it's gone without you knowing it's gonna happen. So I think it's about appreciating the moments, and you're certainly much more aware of your mental health than I was, even at the age of however old I was 38, 39, 40 just turned 40, I think, actually. So yeah, I was f 40 years old and I still wasn't really aware of mental health and what it what struggles I I had myself. SPEAKER_02: 49:17 So when I say I've followed you for quite a while, even back to the to those days. And then I started seeing your more, you know, your more recent content about mental health. And do you know there were times I I I know I reached out when I did, but I I wanted to to reach out to you before and and drop you a message, but I didn't I didn't know how because I yeah, I mean I you know we don't we don't know each other, we don't know what what works for each other. And I didn't want to say something that would bring it all back. But then I saw that post that that reason post that I messaged you about, and I thought, you know what? This could be a an icebreaker, so to speak, of of of of talking to you and and and I say getting to know you, but you know, sort of sort of saying my piece, and obviously, yeah, as I said to you, I'm proud of how far you've come. Because it's it's it's it's all of a good to sit here and say, and I I think you're valid, but it it's good to sit here and say, you know, we need to make the younger generation aware of of mental health and the tools to use. And again, I think I think it's valid, but I think it's it's it's just as equal, if not more important, that we make the older generation aware again of of the tools that that is available and and and and the things that are out there and and it I I guess what I'm trying to say is is that it's important for everyone to to know. SPEAKER_01: 50:50 I think it's the older generation, you know, even like 30s, 40s and above, that probably need it more, need the help more because we're so we're brought up differently. We're brought brought up to kind of not show any emotion. And and I'm not saying that that's diff because that was the same for you, because you were then brought up by people that you know were brought up like that too. But I think it's the younger generation that can buck the trend. I don't I don't know how, but I think by talking a lot of younger people now, everyone's on social media, social media is such a big thing in everyone's life, and yeah, I think that's the I think that's the way to or it's a way, it's a way to spread awareness and to get people talking more and to not feel ashamed about asking for help and not to not feel embarrassed about asking for help, really. SPEAKER_00: 51:39 It's definitely not therapy. SPEAKER_02: 51:41 So yesterday I actually had a a struggle with my current partner, and it was difficult for me to handle. So instead of bottling it up, I actually phoned my dad and I kept around to her and I said, Look, I'm struggling. Rumors had been made up. Whether they were rumours or not, no one's ever gonna know. And it was uh there's a two sides to every story. So I was told one thing, and she was telling me another. I phoned my dad and I said, Look, I I need your help, and I need you to to try and help me because I don't know what to do. And he says, Well, what's what's gone wrong? Because you don't sound yourself, you don't sound your normal self, and this sounds more serious than than any other sort of niggly fallout that we have. And I says, Well, we guess it is. I says, this this is why. I says, people have been going around saying things. It's sending my head into a spiral of am I now gonna be alone for the rest of my life? And am I now gonna have that worry of who do I talk to? How do I get past it? And he turned around to me and he says, Look, he says, and then you don't like talking. He says you never have done. He says, but if there's if there's one thing that I've learned from you, from your past relationship, it's to talk it out with the other person. Because if you don't talk it out with the other person, you're gonna end up worse off. SPEAKER_03: 53:17 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 53:18 And he is right, because that is exactly what happened with with the other person. I didn't talk things out. And after six years, it was it it was time to call it quits. So I turned round to to my current partner last night, and I says to her, Well, look, you need to help me understand because right now I have got so many things going off in my head, like I'm not good enough for you. You deserve better, I deserve better. I said, You need to help me figure out what I'm gonna do. And she turned around to me and she says, Right, she says, I'm gonna hang up on you. And she says, and we're gonna text about it. She says, because you talking doesn't work for you. She says, it works for me, she says, but it doesn't work for you. And at the end of the day, she says, You come first. She says, So I'm gonna hang up on you. She says, and we're gonna text about it. And she says, and you can call me whenever you feel ready. And that's what we did. And we spent hours upon hours texting about the situation. We must have spent three, maybe four hours. Yeah. I know I I know that I I know I got about two or three hours of sleep. I had to be able to find a find up this morning to start at six o'clock. SPEAKER_01: 54:39 Wow. SPEAKER_02: 54:40 So I know I didn't get much sleep. SPEAKER_01: 54:42 Did it resolve things though? SPEAKER_02: 54:44 Yes, it did. And that was the only takeaway that I took from it. Sleep is is is replaceable, I guess. A relationship that because I value the relationship. SPEAKER_03: 54:57 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 54:57 A relationship that I value so much. I might find one out there, but then I'm just taking the coward's way out and and and not talking about it, not trying to resolve it. SPEAKER_01: 55:09 Yeah, I think it's important. I think you've learned you've clearly learned from past experiences that it's better to to talk. I wouldn't ever want anyone to feel like you'd be alone if this relationship ended, because especially at such a young age, and you know, I hope that you go off and you know you live a happy life together, and you know, you have everything that you both you both want. But you you don't want to just sit there and think this is it for me if this goes wrong, because that's so much pressure, that's so much pressure on you, that's so much pressure on her. Like you're still a young guy, and without being too too negative, obviously I've said what I've said, and I like I said, I hope that you both go on and you're you're happy forever and you have happily ever after, you know that's incredible, but you are only 22, and you know, I didn't meet who I thought was the love of my life until I was 36, and that's when I had a baby, and that's when I then bought bought a house, and that's when I started a business. All those things didn't come for me until much, much later in life. So just try and enjoy every moment. You know, I'm not I don't want this to turn into a kind of because I'm not an I'm certainly not an expert in any realm of relationships, like clearly, but so I don't want to delve, I don't want to kind of you know overstep the mark with it, and I want to be respectful to you and your your your partner, and I you know I do appreciate you opening up. SPEAKER_00: 56:36 It's definitely not therapy. SPEAKER_01: 56:37 What I was gonna ask, and you you may have touched on it already. What was your lowest moment? SPEAKER_02: 56:43 Yeah, I I briefly touched, I didn't touch on the moment, but I briefly touched on the reasons. So obviously I'm as as as I said uh at the beginning, obviously I'm adopted, so I was brought up by by by two parents and I didn't have a father figure, so I have two mums. Okay. And I remember this as it was yesterday. I came home from I say a hard day, a hard day's work at school, I didn't do any. But I came home from school and I went to the park. I said to my mum, look, Mum, I'm going out to the park, I'll be back around eight o'clock. So yeah, that's fine. And then I get a phone call whilst I was at the park, and the only time my mum ever phoned me is if she needed me. unknown: 57:26 Okay. SPEAKER_02: 57:26 So I got worried. I said, Look, Mum are you okay? And she's like, No, she says, Don't come home. At that point, I was on my bike, repeddling home. I says, Well, tough, I'm coming home. She's like, No, don't. She's like, Charlie's turned up, which is the other person. And I'm like, Right, okay, why? Until she was, she's trying to take the family dog. Now the dog was a phone. I didn't have much involvement with it. But it meant so so much to my mum. That it meant so much to me. SPEAKER_03: 58:03 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 58:04 So I says, Well, look, I says, I'll go around the next door neighbours, I'll come home that way. No one can see me. And then I remember walking out the front, and my other mum, Charlie, she was stood out the front, and I says, Well, what you what are you doing? She said, I'm taking the dog. You're not taking the dog. It lives here, it always does. It always has and it always will, which is that no, I'm taking the dog. I says, No. You can get back in your car and you can leave. But I used much more colourful choice words. And she turned around to me and she says, I don't know what you're telling me what to do, for you're not even my son. I was that mad and that upset that I walk I ran down my path. She was one side of the car door, and I was other. And and and I pushed with all the strength that I had in me on that car door, and I pushed her in her car, and I dropped her finger in the car door. Now at the time I felt bad because that's the person I am. If I hurt anyone, then I feel bad. And then I went to the front of the car and and yeah, I I damaged it. Didn't bother me. And then I went to the back and and and and and I she had her handbrake on and her foot brake on the car at this point. So it was it was stationary. No one was going to push that. But I did. I was that angry what she had turned out to me and what and she what she said to me that I had this strength had come from out of nowhere, and I was pushing her car halfway down the road with her foot brake on it. And her handbrake. And then after that she decided to drive off. And I ran back inside, I ran up to my room. And I just burst out crying. And I started hurting myself again. I started having the mentality maybe I don't deserve to be here. SPEAKER_01: 1:00:17 Well it's a hard it's a hard thing to hear, isn't it? You know, to to for someone to say that out of you know, and as as much as we can appreciate, well, people say things when they're angry, in the heat of the moment, it's does that it's not easy to process that, especially when you've been through what you've been through. SPEAKER_02: 1:00:36 So I I I I I was filled with maybe my you know, maybe I was put up for adoption because my real parents didn't love me. May maybe they tried to keep me a girl as as as as a young kid, but well as as a young baby. But but I was too much to handle so they got rid of me, maybe I don't have to be here at all. So I started um myself. And then later that night I went on social media, which probably wasn't the best of ideas. Now I found if if if I'm going through a tough time to to take myself out of the social media situation. But I went on social media and there was a photo of the damage that I did to her car with the captioned shame it wasn't him. I went into school that next day and that was it. I that day I I picked a fight with anyone I could. SPEAKER_01: 1:01:32 You're just angry. SPEAKER_02: 1:01:34 I was angry, I was frustrated, I just picked a fight with anyone I could just just so I could get all that rage out of me. Because I was never going to see her again, and I quite frankly, I didn't want to. But people at school I was I was always going to run into. SPEAKER_03: 1:01:49 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 1:01:51 And I guess that was my lowest point. I I I I picked a fight with, but you know, I picked a fight with many people that day actually. I think I've got an experiment for like a week, but I just turned around and said that I don't care. SPEAKER_01: 1:02:04 Well, you're in that mind, you're in that mindset. You were in self-destruct mode and were just destruct mode, you just wanted to be destructive and cause chaos and lash out and show your anger and you wanted to be noticed because you'd had someone say that terrible thing to you, so you know it's it's uh you know, I can't obviously I can't I'm not in that situation. I've not been in that situation. Obviously, I can't condone violence towards anyone, you know, obviously lashing out at school and whatnot, but we've all you know, we've all been there, we've all had those those moments. But moving forwards, how do you cope? Because I'm presuming that was what when you were what 16, 17, 14, 15, something like that. SPEAKER_02: 1:02:48 Yeah, I think it was between the ages of 14 and 17. SPEAKER_01: 1:02:51 Okay. So how do you sort of cope now then in a more positive manner? Obviously, I appreciate you had the the the kind of the issues recently with your your partner, but that it it still seems like that's a mature way to have handled that. You've phoned your dad, you've asked for advice, you've talked to your partner, you've done it in a manner that suits you both, and you've resolved it. So is that how you generally resolve conflict in in your life now? SPEAKER_02: 1:03:17 Generally, I try not to get my dad involved. Um obviously now my biological parents. Um that was probably one of the highest points of my life. I emailed the council or uh I emailed the council where I was adopted through. And I was like, I want to get in touch with my biological parents. Didn't hear back for a week, so I thought, right, okay, they don't want anything to do. I mean, maybe they're not even here. Maybe some drastic life event happened and they're not here no more. I don't know. And then I heard back. Then it was an email with my mum's phone number and my dad's phone number. Okay. And I keep in touch with them as much as I can. But as I said, generally I don't get my parents involved with any conflict that happens with my partner because the way I see it is I'm with my partner. The relationship is just me and my partner. It's not me and my partner, and on the side, my mum and dad, her mum and dad, when when it feels like it. SPEAKER_01: 1:04:21 And you don't want to go, you don't want to go, and this is I think a trait that a lot of people will do is and and I I'm not necessarily suggesting this is a a bad thing, but a partner will have an issue, and the first per people they run to are their parents, so then they're always just constantly being fed bad things, you know. It's like, oh, you know, Dan's done this again, Dan's done. I'm referring to like myself in this, by the way. So like Dan's done this, Dan's done that. So all they're hearing is bad stuff. They're not they're not hearing, oh Dan done this amazing thing for me, or Dan took me to this amazing, like it's they run to parents, and you go to parents when it's a negative rather than a positive, and then that's the opinion that people build of you. SPEAKER_02: 1:05:04 Yeah. SPEAKER_01: 1:05:05 So you're so you're right, you're right to not get you know your parents involved in you know every little thing. SPEAKER_02: 1:05:12 The only but that's why me and her differ. She she will get her parents involved, and that annoys me. Because as I said, the relationship isn't me and her and both of our parents, it's it's me and her. Like if we ever choose to to to go down the path of of tying the knot, so to speak, it's not gonna be me and then my partner, and then I'll you know, my parents and her parents are gonna get married. It's gonna be just me and her. SPEAKER_01: 1:05:42 Yeah, you're building you're building your own your own family and your own support network. But um that's not uh that's not what she's doing though, isn't it isn't out of the ordinary. It is a lot of people, you know, although I've got an opinion on it, uh that's what a lot of people do because that's her support network and that's who she goes to when maybe she's frustrated. But that's again part of I guess being understanding to it. There's going to be things that you may think that frustrates me, but there'll be things the other way around that frustrate her and she'll be sympathetic to them. So it's just but again, I'm not here to I don't want to kind of delve into your you know your relationship and what what what goes on, it's more about the mental health aspect of it and what you've been through. SPEAKER_02: 1:06:28 No, absolutely. I think I think if I could look back on my 14, 15, 16, 17, or whatever, if I could look back on my younger self, I would know what to do. I would know to tell myself, you know what, Dan, don't don't do this. It doesn't work. Try this. I mean they say hindsight's a wonderful thing, and it really is. I know I'm not 14 now, but what I didn't have available to me then what I do now. And just knowing what I have available to me now, I would have been able to deal with it much, much better. SPEAKER_01: 1:07:15 Um But the positive is, if you don't mind me saying, you've now got those tools available and you're only 22. SPEAKER_02: 1:07:24 Yeah, absolutely. SPEAKER_01: 1:07:26 Which is still incredible, and I think the fact that you've gone on and you you do a job that's rewarding and you help people, I think that is incredible. So, you know, hats off to you. SPEAKER_02: 1:07:37 I sit and I sit and do my job and and I still struggle. Because as I said in the railway, anything can happen, it can be someone wants to jump on the line or anything. And I sit there and I think to myself, that could have been me, but it's not. And I wish I could help them, but I can't. They're not gonna think they do phone me because because they're scared, because they're frightened. But just like I didn't want to hear it. They don't want to hear me talk at them and say it's going to be okay and and and and I understand you because I didn't appreciate that when when it was happening to me. Maybe I apply a little bit, you know, maybe I've I've I've I've applied a little bit too much of personalized experiences to it, but that's the only way that I can sit through those difficult phone calls uh and I guess be okay. SPEAKER_03: 1:08:43 Yeah. SPEAKER_02: 1:08:44 I've got a a great support network now. I've got my partner, I've I've got my dad, I've got my mum. But inside of working's great too. So that's the same manager that turned around to me and told me just talk, talk, talk to this number. He now understands that talking doesn't work for me, and and I will say what good morning to him, and then the rest of our conversations will be over our corporate chat. SPEAKER_01: 1:09:13 Okay. SPEAKER_02: 1:09:13 And that's how it'll be. That's how it's always been. And if I feel I I feel like he appreciates me a lot more now. SPEAKER_01: 1:09:21 Well, that's good though. That's good that that he's obviously you know, you've learned to kind of communicate with him in that way. You've obviously done the same with your partner, and there seems to be a pattern there. So I'm really pleased that you know things are definitely much better for you now than when you were, you know, 14, 15. I appreciate you opening up and being so sort of open and vulnerable as well on the pod. So thank you for for that, Dan. Before we sort of wrap up, just because obviously I'm aware of the the time and uh you'll probably want to get some sleep since you've only had two hours' sleep, but I always like to finish on something a little bit lighter. So I always want to kind of ask that what would be uh have you got something that's happened in the last week that's really made you laugh, or have you got like a go-to joke that you like to tell? SPEAKER_02: 1:10:15 I uh it's not so much of a joke. I mean, I'm awful with jokes. SPEAKER_01: 1:10:19 I really don't know. Most people are, I hate it. When someone says to me, tell me a joke, I scrow, I just don't, it's always inappropriate. So, but I thought I'm gonna put people on the spot and just see what joke you've got, or it might be something that you might you might have seen something and thought, wow, that's made me chuckle today. It's just I just like to end on a lighter note, really. SPEAKER_02: 1:10:37 The thing that I guess I find comforting, and everyone calls me mad for it, is going out on going out on a catching a train and just going anywhere. I'll use the train company I work for in terms of the benefits we get. And it was it was it's Fri yes, it was Friday. My manager turned around to me and he says, I can't believe you're going all that way just for a dessert. And it was it we it was ten minutes on a train, and he says, I can't believe you're going all the way just for a dessert. He says, You gotta have a look around. I said, No, I'm just I says, I'm just gonna go get my dessert and then I'm going home. SPEAKER_01: 1:11:21 So 10 minutes on the train, get your dessert and come all the way back. SPEAKER_02: 1:11:26 Yeah, but for me, when I was on that train journey, it was a sense of relief, like, do you know? I I I never would have thought 14 year old, you know, 22-year-old me, knowing how 14-year-old me was, I never would have thought I would have got on a train, even 10 minutes, to somewhere I've never been before for a dessert and then go back. And for me that was really as like everyone could be mad for it. I I came into I went into work yesterday, and I said, Oh, do you know what guys? We've really got to go to this dessert place. SPEAKER_01: 1:12:02 I need to know what this dessert place is now, and I need to know exactly what you had because it will bug me. I will not sleep unless I know the full information now. SPEAKER_02: 1:12:10 So it's uh it's a dessert shop up in up in Barnsley, so I'm I live in Sheffield, so that's sort of that South Yorkshire region, and it's called Dolly's Desserts. SPEAKER_01: 1:12:20 Okay. SPEAKER_02: 1:12:21 And I had a Kinder Bueno bubble waffle, and it is absolutely mega. SPEAKER_01: 1:12:27 Okay, well, I'm googling it, obviously. If you've stitched me up and this is something inappropriate, then we I will not be happy, Dan. SPEAKER_02: 1:12:33 Oh man, no, honestly, it's not. I I took a photo and I sent it to my work, I've sent it to my work colleagues. I was like, you know what? I know it's 10 minutes away, but you've got to go. SPEAKER_00: 1:12:44 It's definitely not therapy. SPEAKER_01: 1:12:46 Nice one. Well look, Dan, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for being like I say, thanks for being so open and vulnerable and honest and for telling your story. I genuinely believe like it's stories like yours that people can relate to. SPEAKER_02: 1:12:58 I appreciate you having me. So when I first when I first saw it, I was I was nervous, and I think everyone that you've had on prior and and everyone that will be on, I think that they'll all be nervous, and I can imagine yourself you were nervous announcing it. SPEAKER_01: 1:13:15 Massively. And I'm still nervous ever before every single episode. I'm nervous. I'm like sitting there sweating because I don't because it's important. Like I've just believe in this so much, yeah, but I don't want to ruin it. I don't want to like I don't want to overstate. I don't want to come across like I'm trying to tell people how to kind of cope with stuff. I just wanna I just want to be able to sit and give people a voice that perhaps feel like they don't have a voice. I want to give people a space that can tell a story that they might think they might think, well, I haven't really got any anything interesting, but do you know what? I think every single person's got an interesting story in them. SPEAKER_02: 1:13:54 I was as I said, I was really nervous. And then obviously came the email, oh can you say can you can you send me some titles? I was like, this is actually happening. SPEAKER_01: 1:14:03 It's real now. SPEAKER_02: 1:14:04 And it yeah, it it took me like I wanted to do it, of course. But it took me that courage to send that email. Like I had the email, I must have had that email right out for three hours, and it took me a lot of courage to to hit that send button because I knew once I hit send I'm gonna be sat on here one day or another explaining to you and to everyone what it is my story is and and and and and how I cope with it. And as I say, I never I've never spoke in in this manner, I've never spoke on a on a podcast. SPEAKER_01: 1:14:43 Well the fact that you've said it three or four times, you know, you're a texter, you can sit there and you can put you can put your emotions on paper, but this is quite clearly out of your comfort zone. But you've done really, really well, Dan. You've you've you've been nothing but honest and open with me. You've you've you've told me your story, which I massively, massively respect. And yeah, just I just want to say thank you, mate. Thanks for thanks for thanks for putting yourself out there, and you should be really proud of yourself. And I don't mean that to sound condescending, but the fact that you were nervous and it's so easy, and I've and trust me, I've had people that have booked and they've messaged and said, Dan, I've lost my bottle, I can't do it. And that is fine, because I don't want anyone on that is gonna make them stressed or anxious, but I can promise you, and hopefully you'll agree with this, you were nervous, but you've done it, and hopefully you can feel a sense of okay, it wasn't that hard. I've spoken about my you know my life, and actually nothing bad has happened. SPEAKER_02: 1:15:47 I I feel that now more than more than anything. And I am you know I am proud of myself, and I never say that. I never turn around to myself after even after a day of work or or doing something else that I'm just proud of. I never turn around and say to myself, do you know actually what? I'm I'm I'm proud of myself. So for me to to say that back, that's an achievement for me, as as as small as it sounds, but it it it's those small achievements that are gonna get me through life, I guess. SPEAKER_01: 1:16:19 100%. 100%. And I think you should have, and I don't know if this may this may help you, it may not, it's something a good friend of mine recently sort of told me, and it's it's quite I don't know what the word is, f philosophical, maybe? That's probably the wrong word. A good friend of mine, he's a magician. He basically said, Look, you can you need to have everyone in life really needs to have a magician's mentality. Let me give you an example. And I come to you and I say, right, Dan, here's an apple, make that float. And sat next to you is my friend the magician. I say to him, right, same to you, here's an apple, make that float. Would you know what both of you are gonna have completely different mindsets on how that happens? You are gonna be the same as me, and you're gonna say, Well, that's an apple, an apple can't float. Because of course an apple can't float. The magician is gonna say, Okay, what does that look like? And he's already thinking, he's not thinking at all, that can't be done. He's thinking, How can I do that? What does that look like? And it's a different it's a different mentality, it's a whole deeper, deeper thing than just what I've told you there, but that's the basis of it, and it's about changing your mindset to not immediately thinking, Oh, I can't do that, I can't talk, I can't open up. It's thinking, okay, what does it look like if I do? And this is an example of it. This is what it looks like if you do. It looks like you've made another friend. Do you know what I mean? You've got someone else you can talk to. Now my DMs are always open. Dan, listen, I'm gonna let you go, but thank you so much, and yeah, I'll uh I'll catch up with you soon, yeah. SPEAKER_02: 1:17:52 All right, thanks, Dan. SPEAKER_01: 1:17:53 And that was Dan. Dan was bullied at school from the age of 14. Dan was adopted, he struggled with his emotions, he didn't have a support network. The support network he thought he had were not there for him. When he was trying to speak up, he was kicked and he was put down and he was told you're the problem, you can understand why he lashed out. We obviously don't condone violence of any sort, but I can certainly relate to how he must have felt. And I think when you must have felt that alone and that judged and that picked on, it's not right, but you can understand why he might have been frustrated and why he might have lashed out. Obviously, Dan's matured now and he's found a way to communicate. He's got a partner that clear clearly cares about him. He's gone on and he's found his birth parents, uh, which is just an amazing thing. I wish Dan the best of luck. That's it for this episode of Definitely Not Therapy. And if you cried, laughed, smiled, or just felt slightly uncomfortable, then we've done our job. Make sure to follow, subscribe, leave a review if you can, and perhaps share this with someone who feels alone right now because that might make them just feel less alone. There's someone else going through the same thing as them. Whatever your story might be, whether it's co-parenting issues, divorce, breakups, heartbreak, anything, anything that goes unspoken, things that you feel like you can't talk about, come and talk to me about them. Let's help to spread some awareness. All you need to do is email me at only danlawrence at gmail.com or DM me on any of my social media platforms, Dan Lawrence on Facebook, Dan Lawrence Comedy on Instagram, or definitely not Therapy Pod on Instagram. I'm Dan Lawrence and I'll see you next time.