Men Do Not Talk About This Enough” James Bromley

What happens after you ask for help — and the help still does not come?

This episode lives in that space.

In a raw and deeply honest conversation, James opens up about the months that followed reaching out for mental health support — an eight-month wait that became one of the most challenging chapters of his life. It is a story shaped by grief, pressure, responsibility, and the quiet reality that resilience sometimes has to last far longer than anyone warns you it will.

James speaks openly about the weight of being “the happy one” — the person others lean on, the one who keeps everything moving, while slowly unravelling behind the scenes. He shares the reality of supporting a daughter living with a serious eating disorder, navigating a system that keeps shifting the rules, and standing firm in the belief that men’s voices belong at the centre of mental health conversations — not on the margins.

This episode shines a light on experiences many across the UK — and around the world — will recognise:
 being reassessed because life circumstances changed, being redirected to new services with fresh waiting lists, and the crushing sense of starting again just as hope begins to return. We also talk candidly about the emotional impact of social media — how curated happiness can deepen isolation, and why honest, balanced stories do far more good than flawless feeds ever could.

But this conversation is not only about what is broken.

It is about what keeps people going.

James shares what is helping now: peer-led spaces like Andy’s Man Club and local initiatives such as Bottled Up Blokes — places where men can walk in, sit down, and be heard without fixing, performing, or pretending. We explore practical tools listeners can use immediately: asking twice, listening properly, setting early warning signs, and choosing one small joy that reliably lifts the day.

For James, that joy arrived unexpectedly — musical theatre nights with his son. For someone listening, it might be a short walk to a community room where someone remembers your name.

This episode is for anyone who has ever:

• waited too long for support
• carried everyone else while neglecting themselves
• masked pain behind humour or strength
• or questioned whether their voice even mattered

If this resonates, follow the show, share this episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review so these stories can reach further.
 And when the episode ends, send a message to someone you care about — and ask the second question:

How are you really?

In this episode, we explore:

• men masking pain as “the happy one”
 • eight-month waits and redirected mental health support
 • grief compounding existing mental health struggles
 • supporting a child with an eating disorder
 • charities bridging gaps in UK mental health services
 • peer groups as fast access, safety, and belonging
 • how to ask twice — and truly listen
 • social media pressure on men and young people
 • early warning signs and personal coping tools
 • kindness online and the cost of casual comments
 • small joys that build resilience and hope

Please visit www.belltrades.co.uk
— and if a friend mentions a kitchen or bathroom, put them in touch with Bell Trades

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

It's definitely not therapy.

SPEAKER_03: 0:02

Welcome to another episode of Definitely Not Therapy, the podcast where I talk to real people. Strangers. But strangers with a real story. It's raw, it's unfiltered, it's gritty. But I think it's important to talk to real people and get these stories out there because I think people go through stuff every single day. We're going through something, we're dealing with something. And sometimes you feel like there's no one to talk to. And although you might feel there's no one to talk to by just listening to what someone else has gone through might be enough to just make you feel less alone. Today's guest will leave a rare and lasting impact. I promise you that. But before I tell you who my guest is, I want to just give a really heartfelt shout to my sponsor. I got a bit emotional then. I'm so, so blessed to have a sponsor on this podcast. And it's a company who they really do support men in the mental health space. The podcast wouldn't be possible without Bell Trades Limited. They are just incredible. They're incredible at showing their support. They want to do whatever they can for the men's mental health space. The most important thing to tell you about Bell Trades, they've got a brand new website. It is modern, it is easy to use. If there's any work you're going to need on your home, Bell Trades. They are the people to talk to. They do kitchen renovations, they do bathroom renovations, they do full home restorations. They take everything apart, put it all back together again. They're really clever. They know what they're doing. It's more than a renovation, it's a transformation. It's a thoughtful transformation. They're a brilliant company. They're a really, really, really nice bunch of people. Go and take a look. www.belltrades.co.uk. I've got a little bit about Meet the Team on here. Should we have a little look at we've got Martin the founder? He's the driving force behind Bell Trades. Three years ago, he started with nothing, which this is an incredible story. And Martin has actually been on the podcast and shared his story. He started with nothing but a tool bag.£15 in his account. That's inspirational. That is also more than me at the moment. But he had a commitment to want to do things the right way. And I know Martin personally. There's no one else I'd rather give my home to to renovate it. Danny is the guru. Danny brings an unbelievable amount of skill and knowledge to the building game. Vicky, the backbone of Bell Trades, the woman behind the scenes, making sure everything runs smoothly from admin and scheduling to keeping things organised. She handles all the jobs people take for granted, but couldn't live without. Then you've got Gareth, who's the site supervisor. He's been with Bell Trade since the early days. Gaz, bathroom fitter, and wet trade specialist. And they got Dan the Apprentice, which is not me. He wouldn't hire me. I'm rubbish at all that sort of stuff. I need people like Belltrades to come and get me out of trouble when I've ruined my house. If you've listened to any of these episodes of this podcast and it's helped, then all I ask of you is just spread the word. If you've got a family member or a friend that they might in conversation say, Oh, yeah, we'd love to get our bathroom done. Put them in touch with Bell Trades. That's all you've got to do. Or if you're thinking, Oh, I'd love to get that room done, there are financial options available. Go to the website www.belltrades.co.uk, have a little look through. In all honesty, if I can just be real for a second, Bell Trades have saved this podcast. This podcast would not be possible without them. So this is a heartfelt thank you from me to Bell Trades because this little podcast and the people that listen to it, I have imposter syndrome. I'm sat here making a podcast. I do everything on myself. I fund everything myself, all at a time where I've lost my financial income from my social media pages, and I'm still trying to put this out because I know the amount of messages I receive. I like I know it helps people. The fact that Bell Trades have stepped in and they're showing support and they're helping, it means the world to me, but it means the world to you guys as well. It means the world to me that you're listening to the podcast, and I can't thank Bell Trades enough. And like I say, all I ask is show them some support in return. And I'm not expecting you all to go out and buy a kitchen or a bathroom and to have your home renovated. But if you do need anything done or you do know someone that needs something done, well at least get in touch with Bell Trades. But have a look at the website, it's a brand new website. I I couldn't do this without them. I really couldn't. Thanks for listening. We're gonna jump into the episode now. But once again, huge thank you to Bell Trades. There's a quote that I heard, which actually I can't remember it now, but it was something to do with life will only throw at you what you can handle and what will make you better. And I'm a big advocate of and and and listen, what I will say is I'm good at giving the advice, I'm not good at taking the advice. But if you can learn something good and you can come out the other side and you can learn a lesson from every bad thing that happens to you, then every single time it will make you a better person. And this episode, I'm gonna be talking to James. Now, James's daughter struggles on a daily basis with a really serious eating condition, and of course, this has affected her mental health. And James is a huge advocate. He's struggled with his own mental health, but he's a huge advocate for change. Now, because of what James's daughter goes through and the struggles that she faces, James has seen that first hand. He's seen firsthand what that can do to someone you love and someone you care about. And when all you want is help, all you want is help. You're asking for help, but you've got to fight every day just for help, just to be listened to. So James is a huge advocate for openness around mental health, and that's why he works for lots of charities doing charity work. He works for support groups around men's mental health, working with different community groups, men's community groups, men's sheds is not we're we're overrun. The mental health system in the UK, we're overrun. We do not have the facilities to cope with the problem. We don't. So we need charities like that. We need charities like Andy's Man Club to really step in. If they're not there, then the problem just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. I'm really glad that James has decided to come on and share his story. So let's welcome James onto the podcast.

SPEAKER_02: 6:47

It's definitely not therapy. Hi James. Hello, how are you doing? You're eyes.

SPEAKER_03: 6:53

Not too bad. How are you?

SPEAKER_05: 6:55

Yeah, good. Not too bad, thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 6:56

Well, the good news is you can I'm assuming you can hear me then and you can see me.

SPEAKER_05: 7:00

I can. Yeah, it's all good, all clear.

SPEAKER_03: 7:02

Okay, this is brilliant. This is the best it's ever gone so far. So that's and we're we're now 21 episodes in, so that is good news. That is good news.

SPEAKER_02: 7:11

It's definitely not therapy.

SPEAKER_03: 7:13

Welcome to the podcast. James, thank you for joining me today, mate. No, thanks for no, it's uh it's good. I think, you know, the reason, and we've spoken briefly, but the reason that I do this podcast is I really want to help to spread awareness around mental health, especially around men's mental health, and reading your notes and and what you've sort of been through and some of your your struggles. I think one of the big things which obviously we'll go into is that you're you're a real advocate for wanting to spread openness really to talk about men's mental health, which is something I mean, I've like I said, I've just been away at a festival this this weekend, and it was it was interesting because I met quite a few characters, really interesting characters who work for charities, which are around the same sort of thing, wanting to spread awareness around men's mental health, and it was quite refreshing that there was just guys, groups of guys, standing around talking about men's mental health and what we've been through and how we've come out the other side, and it's just it's quite refreshing, and I just think we need more of that, but the we need more of this, more podcasts, more people talking, more charities to be able to do that and to be able to spread it as far and as wide as we we can. I think the for me, and I've said this so many times, when I was really struggling, it was hard to rel I the people I could relate to were the real people. So when you hear real all my DMs were full of real people telling me their real stories, and I was like, Oh my god, I'm not alone, like I'm not the only one going through this because you do feel like that. Well, speaking from for myself and a few other people I've spoken to, you sort of feel like oh my god, this is I'm the only person this has happened to, it's the end of the world, it's terrible. But actually, there's people going through worse, and you're just not on your own. And I think that's what it's about is if someone's sat there now thinking this is terrible, what I'm going through, well, they might listen to what you're going through, James, or what you've been through, and they might think, Oh my god, like I'm not on my own. I'm not the only person that's had to deal with James, has had to deal with so much worse, and it's it's not that it's a competition, but it's like, oh, there's someone else that's dealing with with something bad, and they're they're okay, they're doing okay. So, so yeah, so tell me a little bit about you then, James. The rest of the episode's yours now. I've done my talking, it's all on you. You've got an hour, go for it.

SPEAKER_05: 9:36

No, no, I I think I think you're absolutely right. And I think it is, you know, and when we talk about men and men particularly, and I think it is difficult to to share and open up and um that sort of stigma around it. And I think for me personally, I think it was I I I I think I struggled. I was always one of these people that was always kind of the happy one, always the always the smiley one, always trying to make people happy, and I suppose that was fine for a long period of time. But I think when you get you have the struggles yourself, it's difficult to kind of open up when you've always been that way. So it's always a challenge of you know, people expect a certain thing of you. So when you are struggling, you feel like you just have to get on with it and just have to make sure everyone else is okay around you. Um so I think that was a big part of the problem is when it first started happening, and I realised I was having struggles, but I didn't know how to deal with it personally and who to speak to. Because like you say, you have people around you, you have people that love you, all those aspects of things, but how you speak to them and and you know, changing that that aspect of things. So I I I realised that I would I was struggling and things were impacting work and personal life and things like that. So I was lucky that I work in a in an environment that that supports people with mental health. So I kind of knew a little bit about what was out there, a little bit. So it would be very much about trying to get that support. And I think uh I did I did go down the statue roo, I went to NHS, you know they did a talk of therapies, which is you know, which is great, but it's a massive challenge in terms of you know the waiting lists and all the aspects of it, and you know, you sat there for six, eight months waiting to get support when when that's the point when you need that support. And I think looking back now, I think having these sort of conversations with people I think would have really helped because I think you still you you just feel like you're sat there, you know, dealing with all these issues, you have no way of of sort of getting out there from that perspective. So I think during that period of waiting for that support, you know, things got really difficult, really, really hard.

SPEAKER_04: 11:21

Really?

SPEAKER_05: 11:21

Um but then then I then I kind of dealt with during that period as well, had some sort of bereavement close to me as well, my parents, but I've lost academia in a short period of time. Sorry to say that. All of that really combined really hit me hard. Um, you know, and that was probably five, six years ago. And I think still now I'm in a better place than I was, but I think there was a big period of just dealing with it on my own, feeling like I was on my own about it, yeah, you know, and it impacted a a massive part of me, you know, and and my family closely, I've got two kids and dealing with sort of health issues with them as well. It was a period of time that I think it felt like everything happened at once, but there but there was no outlook, there was no outlook to talk about it, yeah. Um there was no place to to speak, so you do feel like you you're on your own quite a lot. So yeah, I think that that was that was the period that was really difficult.

SPEAKER_03: 12:09

I can relate to that definitely. I I had there's this moment, and again, I've said this before, but you can be when you're in this mindset, and I think this is from the conversations I've had with with friends and other other men, it is very much like a man thing. It's you could be in a room full of people that love you and care about you, but you it's the loneliest place in the world. When you're struggling with mental health and you all you want to do is ask for help, it just it just it's lonely. It's it's lonely and you're alone. It's like a double I don't know how to describe that, but it's a really surreal feeling. And I and I had it, and I won't go into loads of detail about it because I've already spoken about this on the podcast, but I had a a night out where I'd had a few drinks, and because I'm like do social media and I'm the funny guy and I'm always like making jokes, and like when you're out and people start to recognise you, it's and I and and I appreciate this isn't the same for everyone. This is a very niche to me, but it's it's it could be the same if you're in a group of friends and you're the funny one. Like you've said, you might be, you know, be be always funny, always happy. And I and I was out and people were like recognising me, and I was having to like not tell jokes, but and no one probably cared, but I I put the pressure on myself because like, oh my god, like they see me online, and like that is a real version of me, but it means I've always I can't ever like stop being me. I can't ever just take a minute. People are then expecting, oh Dan's Dan's funny, Dan's hilarious, and that's what I want them to think, of course, because I you know, of course I want people to think I'm funny. It's my whole sort of well, not my whole career, but sort of my career is being funny. So I walked away from that, and I just I that's when I broke down. I just I didn't not know what to do. I was just completely lost. So I can definitely relate to that. I think it's the it's the sort of same, and funny enough, I met someone this weekend who is he was just funny, just one of the funniest people I've met in a really long time. But then we sat down at the end of a night, and he was he was just telling me about all these mental health struggles he has, and it's like he's got this contact that they check in with each other every day. And I was like, I would not have expected that from this person. Like, he's just the happiest, funniest, and it is always those ones that put on that kind of that persona, that front, that guard, I guess. I you know, I don't know how best to explain it, but uh, you might be able to explain it better because obviously you if you've been doing that as well.

SPEAKER_05: 14:45

Yeah, yeah. I think you're right. I I think it is, and I think I think I realize quite you know over the last five years that that was my way of dealing with things, um, which is fine, but when things get tough, then you don't know, you haven't got that kind of um that that strength is the wrong word, but you don't know how to deal with those struggles because that's kind of the way you mask it and you get through and aspects of that. I think there's an element of you know, people kind of not knowingly, but also expect you because that's the way you've always been, to be the one that makes other people feel better and always, you know, looking at that side of things, but actually when you're struggling, how does that work? And again, it doesn't people close to you, you know, it's difficult because you've masked it for so long. How they don't know then how to support you when you're struggling, and I think that's that's a massive issue. I think you see it, don't you? We've got comedians on the stage and you hear about all these people that have these mental health struggles, and that's their way that they deal with it. Yeah, but then when they're struggling, don't know how to manage it. And I think that's a massive issue. Um, I think I hear it more and more about you know, having conversations like this around sort of mental health is you know, people deal with it in a very different way, and it's a lot it does seem to be genuinely those ones that you know maybe maybe it's the element of trying to make other people feel better because you know how difficult it is and you're struggling yourself and actually making other people feel better, makes you feel a bit better, maybe.

SPEAKER_03: 16:01

Definitely, uh definitely, and I've got a friend who is I've got a friend who is that person, he is he is funny. If I'm ever struggling for like a joke or a punchline or some kind of idea, I'll phone him up and he's the one that he's like he will he will immediately he's just got such a brilliant mind for comedy. He was on an episode, it's the first episode of this, actually, Al Casey, and he's just brilliant. I've got so much time for him, but he's one of these people that everyone goes to, everyone goes to him because we I don't know, we just all lean on it, he's just become that person. And I sat down with him one day and I was like, Are you okay? Like, what what what's going on with you? And it's it's like no one had really ever asked him that. Yeah, yeah, and it's quite an interesting thing because you're you're 100% right. It's kind of and you don't, and because we're all kind of leaning on him, I didn't know what to do, I didn't know what to what advice to to give. But yeah, it's we still need to have that conversation. These conversations are difficult, but we still need to have them, don't we?

SPEAKER_05: 17:01

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's that assumption, isn't it? It's that whole thing, isn't it, around how people are on the outside is you don't really know what's going on the inside. And I think just asking that question and having that element of people that you know just because on the outside they might seem like they're okay, actually, there's a lot going on, and you know, and I think it's being able to be confident, and I think we we are moving in the right direction, but being able to have those conversations and answering those questions and also listening. I think there's there's a element within mental health sometimes where people ask a question, but I'm actually listening to the answer. Yeah. It's kind of that standard you're okay, yeah. How's things? Okay, moving on, but actually listening and you know taking those indications of actually know the other person that is struggling. Um so I I think there's an element both ways in the sense of I think us talking about it and being confident to be able to talk about the struggles and actually admitting we're not okay, but also the other person actually wanting to hear the answer rather than just doing it because it feels like it's the right thing to do. I think we're all terrible at that in terms of saying, Are you okay? I mean, we do it, don't we? It's an English thing in terms of you you're right and just carry on walking. But it's actually that that real you know desire to know actually, do you mean it? Are you okay? Is it anything that we can do? It's sometimes just listening, isn't it? Sometimes just listening and hearing what people are going.

SPEAKER_03: 18:08

That's that's that's all it is. I've got another friend Wayne who he he's he's again, he's had an episode of the podcast, and but he will message me and he'll say, How are you doing? Are you okay? And I'll say, Yeah, yeah, I'm okay. And he'll say, Okay, that's the man answer. Now tell me the real answer. And it's interesting that he does that because he's got someone else that does that for him, and that person's got someone else that does that for them. And so it's like, oh, okay, we're starting to spread, that's starting to spread, and that's only four or five people. But if everyone was doing that and not just saying, Oh, Dan said he's okay, but if you just say, Okay, but are you really like okay? We don't want to get everyone. It's difficult because you've got to find a balance, haven't you? You don't want everyone to just talk about all their depressing things constantly. Because I'm a big believer in laughter. Laughter is is is a good way, and I think that's why probably a lot of comics, a lot of comedians, they do what they do, because if they've got struggles, they can and I and I've done this several times, I'll make light of my bad situation, and that will cheer me up because I'll see that cheering other people up. But where you where you talk about, you know, that kind of tick box, that tick box thing, it's the state with the statutory kind of resources that are available. Someone I know hate he went to he was struggling with a drug addiction. And it was o I say only, this is this is part of the problem. See, I'm like, oh, it was only cannabis. But he was addicted. He was struggling, he was doing it for a long time. And he went to the clinic, checked himself in, and they were like, Right, what's like what's what what's the problem, what you're addicted to? And he told them and they said, Oh, is that it? Is that all? Like, and made light of it. And it's the same with so I know that we're talking about drugs there, but it's the same with sort of mental health. It is unless you're in a crisis, there really isn't that much help from what I'm hearing. We need to Get in front of it.

SPEAKER_05: 20:01

Absolutely. I mean, I mean, it's so in my professional work, I work within the voluntary sector, so we deal with a lot of so we don't deliver mental health support, but we work with professionals within statutory services and a lot of local groups and things. And there's absolutely that's right, exactly what you said there. If someone's not in a mental health what's class and mental health crisis, it's it's pretty difficult to get that support. You know, there's there's waiting lists, but absolutely there's no services out there. And I think there's so much reliance on some of those voluntary sector, you know, groups, you know, literally doing basically what you were doing here from the podcast on a local level, getting getting people together, talking about the challenge, having honest conversations, and so that's a peer support, it's so important. Um, you know, there's the the struggle that we see is that you know, there's a real we we understand that people who are part of it can see the value of it. But you know, when you're talking about statutory and funding and aspects of that, people don't see it's so difficult to put it on paper, the impact of that on individuals, and actually having that space to go and talk about the challenges, you know, and it may be they're one hour a week where they can be honest about things, they can talk about the struggles, and they then they go off and go back to their normal life and carry on from that. And the feedback from that is that it's so important, just having that time to with people that understand what you're going through, like you say, you know, people at different levels that have struggled, but being able to have those honest conversations, and it's so important. But what we're seeing is there's less and less than them about because you know it's it's funding, support, resources for it is just not there. So it's kind of a big element of actually having that space. Because I think when you get to a point when you're when you're struggling, when you feel that you need somewhere to talk to, because it's not easy, is it? And so when you are struggling, you need that support then and there because you know you may feel strong enough at slash, I want to I need I need some support now. You know, if you're waiting six months, you know, anything can happen during that six months and might not be ready for you.

SPEAKER_03: 21:50

You need that support there to be able to do it. You need it there and then, you need it there and then. And and I was gonna come on to because you had that wait, and I want to kind of ask you a couple of questions about that. But what I do find interesting about what you said there is it's it's so I I I know someone who runs a charity that does help people and he offers support as and when they need it. But he had and he runs a charity, I think it's called Joker, J-O-K-A, which he's gonna come on and do and do an episode. So we'll I'll I'll learn a little bit more about it. But I won't say what the actual idea was because out of respect for for him, because it's a brilliant, it's a brilliant, brilliant idea that we could save lives. Genuinely, it's that good. But he took that to some big companies that could help and it would cost them nothing. He was gonna fund the whole thing, and they said, nah, not interested. And it's like it's because it's a money that like you've got to start at the bottom and work up, and that's why, you know, podcasts like me, I'm not funded. No one's funding me. Like these charities, no one's funding them. It's a lot of people are just out here like you, with with with it's charity work and it's starting at the base up. But there's some I mean, I've I've met one person this weekend that runs a charity that's had an idea that could save lives, and big companies don't want to know. Unless you're a a dragon from Dragon's Den and you've got that much power and that much sway, people just don't want to know because the world is just everyone just cares about the money, not about the people. And I just I think that's really, really sad.

SPEAKER_05: 23:24

And that's not unique either, you know. We come across that in terms of people with ideas, and you know, you know that it's needed, you know. Charities are are really good in terms of identifying the needs locally, in terms of actually saying because a lot of them are people who have been through the same issues, you know, it's people that I've been through and thinking actually we they really need the support here. But you know, to be able to get it off the ground to deliver it in the in the right sort of way, it then needs that support, and you're absolutely right. People are in their own little world, there's the element, and you know, it's it's about it it is it's so difficult. And I think charities are so important to mental health in terms of delivery and the aspects of that. Something needs to change to be able to enable them to do it because what happens is you know, if these charities don't set up, there's the people that are supporting, where are they going to go? They're either going to go off, you know, on their own, you know, whatever's gonna happen, or go straight back through the system in terms of something that's gonna overwhelm that side of things. So it's it's it's so difficult, but something needs to change around charities because I think ultimately they're there, they're there, they're responding to need, you know. But how how can we encourage organisations to support to deliver what's needed because it is because there's no other organizations that are delivering that in terms of being that support for individuals, it's so important.

SPEAKER_03: 24:37

I agree, I agree. Yeah, I could I couldn't have said it better myself. I think I just I think the problem is it seems like every kind of idea that someone has or every route someone tries to take, it's just a dead end anyway, because you just feel it's it's I'll tell you what it's like, it's like a constant uphill struggle. Because even for me, I've got a ri I've got a reach on social media and I've built a following, and I'm really proud of that I've done that. But people sort of want to see the comedy, they want to see the funny stuff, and then you start saying, Oh, actually, do you know I could use this, or I start thinking, Oh, I can use this for some good. And and I do think because I wouldn't do it otherwise, but making funny content does help people. I and I know it helps people because the amount of people that say, You got me through lockdown because I you put out a video every day and it made me laugh every day, and I had something to to laugh about. And and for me it was as much of a therapy being able to put my mind into a place where I I thought the world was ending, but I could make people laugh and I could concentrate on that. But yeah, I just think you you put yourself out there like I have, and all you sort of get is pushback. All you get is pushback, you get brands don't want to work with you because you're too real, you're you're being too honest, unless it's mental health brands. I as soon as I announced I was doing a charit mental health podcast, Andy's man club reached out. I'm I'm working with them. This this episode will go out after, but they've got a big event in London, and I was in a Zoom meeting with them, they're like, brilliant, anything we can do to help. And I'm gonna do a talk, you know, on their on their big event this Wednesday, and it's it's that's that's good, but for someone like me, whose career is social media, it's like it's an uphill battle because no one sort of wants to work with you because you're too real. You're talking about mental health, and people don't want to talk about mental health, they just want to see the funny stuff. So you kind of build this following and you think I use this for some good, I'll spread some awareness around this because it's something I'm passionate about. People don't want to know. People don't want to know. Uh so at any level, I think it's just an uphill battle.

SPEAKER_05: 26:45

But you and I and I saw it in terms of obviously because I've followed your channel and sort of saw the elements of things, but you could see, you know, when you were struggling and that switch of it, you could see people pushing back on that element of things. But actually, your your stories and what you've been through is a perfect example of of you know of a real person having challenges. This this is this is their you know public side of thing, what you're gonna cross for these the challenges, and you're absolutely right. That's for me what people need to see. That actually there is an element, and nobody nobody's averse from from dealing with mental health issues. It could happen to everybody. I think most people go through some sort of mental health challenge at some point in their lives. Um, and I think the whole social media thing can be, you know, talk about doing my daughter's going through all sorts of challenges at the moment, but social media can come across as this perfect world, kind of people put on there what what's great and all the aspects of it, and trying to teach people, especially young people, that it's not all that it, you know, it seems this is this is a this is a persona that people put on social media, you know. So to have somebody that is part of that world that actually links in and says, actually, there is part of this that struggle as well. This this is you know normal life as well. I think it's really powerful. And I think more people need to be doing that so that people that are on social media, again, especially young people, can see that actually, okay, you know, everybody can struggle, everyone has those issues. How can we support each other to do that? So I think it's but I think some of the pushback that you get and people get highlights there's still a lot of work to do because people people don't don't see that there is two parts of that, and you know, I I think it could be dangerous if you have a social media persona that doesn't show the real side of things because that can you know suggest to people if somebody is struggling, be seeing actually oh everyone's all fine, everyone's already happy and grey, everything's good. But actually seeing somebody that you recognise on social media is actually they go through it as well. I think is really powerful.

SPEAKER_03: 28:31

I I I think and genuinely I believe this. I believe that people watching social media and seeing how amazing and how perfect someone's life is is so much more damaging than someone talking openly and saying life is real sometimes, like real stuff happens, and mine's probably an extreme like version because it was played out on social media and in the public. But that is just what happens, whether it's out uh on social media or in your own world, it's you see if if you lose those things, you still have the same emotions, and as much pushback as I've had, I wouldn't change a thing because the amount of people that have messaged and said, like I'm so glad that you did that because I didn't feel alone. And that was the whole sort of reason that the podcast was born, because I had so many people that were saying I don't feel alone. I was like, How can I do this but have like a separate section so that can be about that and I can still try and entertain people with this, and that's why the podcast is born. But yeah, it's it it is hard, and I think, especially in social media, I think people people do need to I I personally believe people do need to maybe just show a more real side, or or we just need to educate more people that you know what it's just entertainment, whatever you see on the internet is just entertainment. It's like you wouldn't go to the cinema and watch I was gonna say Titanic, but that's a silly because that really happened. That was a such a silly, I don't know, inception. You wouldn't go and watch Inception at the Why am I using old films? Like I'm just pick a new film, Dan. But you wouldn't go to the cinema, watch a film, and it was you know, Inception, because I've used it now and be like, oh like I I don't even like you wouldn't believe that that's real. It's a film, it's just entertainment for you for you to watch and sit and escape and enjoy.

SPEAKER_05: 30:21

But yeah, I don't really know what the point is I'm making there, but it it's I've sort of lost my train of thought because I made myself laugh a little bit, but um but you but it's it's true, it is true, and I think the whole element about online and the conversations I had with my kids about, you know, they'll sort of say, Well, you know, did you know this? And they'll refer to something on YouTube, and it's having that conversation, it's like, you know, everything on you know online isn't necessarily you know accurate, it's not you know, those elements, and I think there is a real issue with that. Do you know what I mean? An issue in terms of actually taking what's and that realization sometimes there is that blurred line, isn't there? So I think when somebody comes out and is quite clear about that, you know, that difference between online and real life, I think sometimes that can make people think about things, and I think that's a really good thing. But I think the problem is more people need to do it because otherwise it becomes unique to you or to someone that are doing that, sort of saying, you know. So I think it's it's how can we get those elements of that reality to be able to for people to understand that everything online isn't necessarily real life, and it's okay to hold.

SPEAKER_03: 31:23

I th I I I I I agree, so many people it because you look at someone's relationship and there'll be couples, there'll be girls out there, or there'll be guys out there, and they'll look at someone else's relationship, like, oh, I can do better, I can do better, or someone would be driving a sports car and they'll want that sports car and they'll get themselves in debt, and it's all these things, it's it's not all it's not all real and it's not all glamorous. It's it's it is just entertainment at the end of the day, and yeah, I think the education needs to needs to change around it. Certainly, I think I've got a couple of I've got a couple of guests booked on who are from social the world of social media, and it's going to be really interesting to to have that conversation about mental health within social media because a lot of people don't, it's such a new industry, really, and everyone looks at it and thinks, oh, it's all glamorous, but it's not, it's so much harder than I worked as an estate agent for 20 years and I loved it. It was hard work, but I loved it. But this is so much harder, it's so much more like because you don't know what you're doing, it's ever, it's ever evolving, it's ever changing, and yeah, it's gonna be interesting to to talk to someone who's had some mental health struggles, but that's for another episode. But so coming back to to to you, James, so you'd said you had some struggles yourself, and then you contacted the NHS and you had that sort of weight of what, like an eight, eight-month weight, did you say? So, what was that eight months like for you?

SPEAKER_05: 32:56

It was hard because it took a lot for me to reach out for that support because I was still at that element of, and I think looking back now, I'd been struggling for a long period of time, but either didn't necessarily realise it or thought it's one of those things, I'll get over it. So it was an element of you know, just just those the basic things of the struggling in the mornings and not having that motivation, just just those elements of things. And I think it was when I started realising it was impacting me at home in terms of obviously, you know, kids, you know, young kids, and those those elements of that impact on them. I thought, actually, I don't want again because I was always the the positive one, yeah, always the one smiling. I I noticed the difference in me, and I thought, well, actually, I don't want them as they're growing up to to kind of see that side of things. So it took a lot for me to reach out from that perspective. So to do that, to go through that process, you know, and it's still you feel quite vulnerable at that point as well to be able to do that, but then to say, yeah, okay, and then you just left, and there's no there's no contact, and it's kind of it's a case of just waiting for you know, in terms of waiting list to you feel you start questioning yourself, I think, in terms of you know, uh do I want to do it? I think you go through through phases, don't you, in terms of you feel a bit strong, you think, yeah, I I need this and I'm gonna do this support. And then you have a day you're thinking, no, I can't do it, I don't want to do it anymore. And and I think I went through that whole phase for those few months to sort of say, well, there's no point now, I'm not gonna do it anymore, or yeah, I'm ready, but there was nothing there. So it's it's hard, and I think it makes you question yourself as well, because you feel like, am I wasting people's time? Is it something that you know if there's a big weight for something, is there somebody else that could use that support more than I I could? So I think it it creates a lot of uncertainty, or it did for me anyway, in the sense of saying, actually, it is is is are my issues worth taking this this service out because we know how struggled they are. Um, but I think what what I got for me is during that period, my circumstances changed because it was during that period that we lost my mum. So that was obviously a whole nother element of something that that came on top of everything else. So when when the the service did start, I was in a completely different place then, obviously, in terms of I was dealing with bereavement and grief and that side of things as well. And you know, I went along and basically was told that it wasn't the right service for me at that point because it was group and bereavement and and trying to explain that wasn't the reason I don't, you know, I signed up in the first place, I was dealing with it, made it really difficult.

SPEAKER_03: 35:16

So it was kind of I was back to the start again. That's unbelievable. So you just so you had this courage, you waited months, and then you were told we can't help you.

SPEAKER_05: 35:27

Yeah, but basically, yeah, absolutely. And it was kind of it was this because it is it's it it feels like a a one one size fits all. So I went through this this aspect of you know, mental health, you know, challenges in terms of all those aspects. But as soon as it becomes a different form of mental health, you know, for me it was it was bereavement, then that needs to be something else. But again, what what was interesting is that they were relying on on uh charity. So Cruz was the one, and and Cruz do fantastic work, they really do. But they're a charity, and again, that there's another waiting list to go through that process. So, you know, you can't, you know, there's an element of sort of saying, Well, you need this support, but there isn't we'll support you up until this point. It's a case of okay, then now you need to go to them and they'll support you. So that's another God knows how many months you're in this void of just having no support, you know. And every service that I've been involved in, when you get that support when it's appropriate, it's fantastic, it's great. But the challenge seems to be actually accessing that right support, and there seems to be no link between them to be able to support somebody just because I was dealing with bereavement, it did it didn't mean that my mental health issues that had got me into that place had improved, probably they were worse because of that situation. But it was a case of and and that's all they seemed to hear was okay, your your issue at the moment is grief and bereavement, you need to go to this this organisation. So it just it was I just felt in a complete and and that whole loneliness, that thing you were talking about about feeling lonely and and isolated, just felt more because there was nothing then.

SPEAKER_03: 36:55

That's it. I was just gonna say that. That's all that is gonna do is make you feel like one potentially, oh, I shouldn't have bothered, I I'm a burden, and also it'll just make you feel more lonely, more alone, because the people that you think, right, finally I can breathe, I've got this, I can go to this meeting, I've got the help, I've got a support network of such. And it's like, oh no, sorry, it's not that's I can't even believe that.

SPEAKER_05: 37:23

Yeah, and you know, and I think I I hear I hear stories about this, and you hear people going through these processes of you know, plucking up the courage, getting getting that strength wherever it's from to be able to look for support, but when it's not there, or you know, you're you're pushed somewhere else, or there's elements of things again. I think I mentioned my daughter briefly, she she she deals with with the eating disorder. We had the same issue with her in terms of a charity and a statutory, and we went through a long phase of getting the right support for her in terms of well, these aren't right, and needs to go then. And it was months and months, and it's it's so dangerous in the sense when people are going through this process because I don't think it's acknowledged how tough it is for people to make that first step, that first step to get support. We know it's so difficult to be open and honest about it. Yeah, and so I think I think a lot of services see that first step as when you've asked for help, but there's so much before that in terms of building up that maybe talking to people around you, having those acknowledgement there's a challenge. Yeah, that's that's that's an important part of it, but so much has gone on beforehand, and I and I can see where people can fall through the gaps and people, you know, struggle and and disengage and all those aspects of things and and get themselves into a real hole, not because they don't want that support, but they just the the system and the process isn't there to be able to support them.

SPEAKER_03: 38:39

Well, they need it, they need the help when they're when they've got the courage, when you've got the courage and you're like, right, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna make this phone call, or I'm gonna send this email, whatever it is, that's the moment they need it. And then if it's then eight months, anything can happen in that in that time. The the moment you need it, and especially with like talking about your daughter, which I hope you don't mind, you know, with her if she has an eating disorder, it it's kind of like okay, she needs help, and if she's acknowledged she needs help, or you as a father are like stepping in and like you need help, she needs help then. Not what's that like you don't know what that looks like in six months or eight months or a year, and being passed around, it's just gonna cause perhaps more like mental strain, like ment more like mental health issues and more stress and more pressure. That's like what are you how and especially as a dad? Like, I know I can relate to that. I would never I'd want my little girl to go through anything, but I know that's not how life works. But certainly, if she did, I'd be the same as you. I'd want to do anything I can to help. And it's what are you supposed to do when there's just no help when no one wants to help, and they're just passing you around.

SPEAKER_05: 39:42

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the that's the theme I see from my experience and people I spoke to work and aspects. You know, often you know there is challenges around the services that are out there, and there is a lot of gaps, and like so that's where the charity organizations really do step in. But I think the biggest challenge is actually getting access to that support in the third. first place because like I say, you know, once once you're in in that and you've got that support, I think there are options there. But it's it's getting that point and that's the period for me that so makes people so vulnerable and that's that's the the the most important part is that beginning of getting that access and getting that support. I think it both circles as my personally my daughter is that that that those months was the bit that looking back I think if things had been moved quicker, if there was more support put in place we'd probably be in a very different place. You know and and I'm lucky I've got I've got people around me but still you know that there's an element of you know it's it's it's so dangerous that that that period and you know I would deal again from my work perspective some of the work we do is around suicide prevention and aspects of that you know again you hear people that have gone through you know that that that mindset and those challenges a lot of it is at random I just felt I was on my own there wasn't there was no one there to support me these issues that are going through that there's so many elements of it so I think as a theme as a as a as an ongoing challenge it's how can we get people to access the support that's out there as quick as possible because it's that it's that period of time that you know anything can happen and I think that's that strength is it's needed but not everybody's got that strength and you shouldn't have that the strength is asking for help yeah and then it's that case of people coming in to to to offer that support and and linking in.

SPEAKER_03: 41:21

In a way you kind of need the courage twice you need the courage once to to ask and then you need the courage to hang on for eight months and then you need the courage to go and do it again so actually probably like you know three times the amount of courage when really if there was just access just even a phone call to someone there was that there was that thing that I saw it's a it's a couple of guys there was a document I've not seen the documentary I was only just told about it but it was I think the documentary was called like Finding Mike and it was this guy who was had reached out tried to get help and no one was listening and he went to London Bridge and he was stood there and he was going to jump and this guy came up to him just put his hand on his shoulder and he said give me five minutes come and talk to me I'll buy you a coffee give me five minutes if you still want to jump then feel free but but and he saved that man's life and they they now and there was this whole thing about finding this guy and they obviously eventually found him his name wasn't even Mike I don't think but they now go around the world telling telling their story and just just that one in that moment is when he needed that help. Well arguably no arguably he reached out for help months and months ago and no one was helping him and it got to crisis point and it just was so lucky that that man was there and he put his hand on his shoulder and he said don't don't do it come and talk to me and I just think in that time period you can either go one of two ways you can either get worse or I guess if you're at the point where you're asking for help you just either get through it shoulder it and then the problem comes back further down the line bigger and worse or you just deteriorate through the eight months and then that's probably why you know we do lose a lot of men to suicide.

SPEAKER_05: 43:12

Absolutely yeah absolutely and I think that's where you talk about these groups and you know conversations like this in the sense of that I think that's so important because you know we we we can argue about the system and times and I think but absolutely that something needs to be done about it we also know you know how the system is at the moment so it's kind of you know these these opportunities open up where people can go and sit with no pressure. There's an element of you know being able to talk about you know sometimes people want to talk about those the struggles some people just want to just listen and realize that other people are going through something similar as well I think it's so important to normalise that and have those options where actually it's a fairly normal thing you know because you can have mental health struggles you know sort of it it's not always like a like a long term aspect sometimes you can try going through a really difficult period of time and actually be able to have that that option to be able to go and and talk about how to open up and then go back to your to your to your life you know that sometimes that helps as well and I think I think things are moving in the right direction because because there's more opportunities for that but there's still so much we can all do to be able to say actually you know everybody struggles at some point everyone's has difficult times you know let's be open and honest about it and have have those those conversations because like you say sometimes it's just being able to have someone listen to you for for for for 20 minutes talk about and sort of you know not necessarily have to say anything you know because sometimes there's nothing you can say but just having that time to be able to listen because I think you do everyone's so busy and your life's so busy there's so many pressures just having that time to be able to you know focus on your struggles be able to normalise it and then carry on I think that's so important and I think it's it's under undervalued sometimes in terms of how how much that's how important that is and have more options of that and I think there's always pushback in terms of people feeling that you know what mental health is and the struggles on there but I think we get we're slowly getting to a point when it's becoming more normal to be able to talk about it and and it's okay to have struggles and actually how how can we share those and but I think there's a lot more work still to be done.

SPEAKER_03: 45:07

Definitely definitely I I think it's it's education and equipping men with the tools to be able to to deal with you know because things are going to happen. We know things are going to happen and and it's just if there's a you know support groups and it'd be interesting to come on to to some of the groups that you work with and what yeah that you work with just because sometimes it is just going to take someone that they might just be going through a little struggle and instead of bottling it up and not telling anyone and just it getting worse and worse they can just go and talk to one of these charities or one of these support groups and then you've immediately got a support network. That's that's what I've sort of you know when when I've talked talk to to people that have are facilitators at Andy's man club and that go to Andy's man club and they'll say they save their their lives and there's lots of other clubs as well that do the same thing and it's just going in there you immediately get a support network but it doesn't have to last forever. It can just be that you you you know what you're struggling some people probably will go in go for one meeting and be like oh right fine I've got that off my chest and you can crack on with life and that's brilliant. That's amazing but I think it's about education and about and about giving men the tools or equipping men with the tools somehow and I don't have the answers to this but to be able to deal with with with these things and I mean one of the things I always say to people if if you're sat there now and you're thinking I d I don't I don't know I can't do it. I can't talk to someone I don't have the courage I sort of say and I've said this to people before it's it's kind of like I put my video out I put my story out and it was for su for whatever reason it was in the newspaper. I don't you know I'm a f I'm a social media person but it was in the newspaper it reached millions of people and I got so much pushback and I say look if I can put a video out on the internet for millions of people to see of me crying and pouring my heart out then you can do it to one person. You can talk to one person and say I'm struggling because if you do that no one's you know no one's gonna judge you for doing that but it's you think everyone will judge you. If you do it on the scale I did yeah people are going to judge you of course you're gonna get some kickback but if I can do it you can talk to just one person and I think yeah some of these these charities but it would be interesting to hear because obviously you're a big advocate for openness around talking about mental health which is amazing there needs to be more people like you James but what do you do kind of with that how how do you how do you do that? How do you advocate for it?

SPEAKER_05: 47:36

Um I suppose there's two elements really I I think there's there's a you know personal advocacy which I think we can all do. I think it's just and I think it is sometimes about showing that vulnerability yourself as well because it's all very easy isn't it for us to say oh you should talk to somebody do that but if if I was saying that but then I was you know sat in my room and not doing that it's you know it's it's it's showing that it's okay. So I think the elements of of that as well and showing that that it's just part of you know it it does help and it's a positive thing. So it's it's leading by example in the sense of be able to sort of say actually it's okay you know it's not easy it's not by no means is it an easy thing but it is definitely the right thing to do something on a personal level I think that's really important hence why I'm on here today do you know I mean in the sense of saying actually you know we we go through struggles but it's okay to talk about it. Do you know what I mean? It's okay to share that because like you say it helps me from a perspective of of talking about it and getting it out but hopefully as you say if there's somebody listening or watching who's thinking actually you know maybe maybe I should I I can do that maybe there's somebody I can talk to then I think that's absolutely you know absolutely key and I think on a professional level it's it's kind of our our role really we don't deliver mental health services but we support those organizations that do so you were talking about those those local groups the one that comes to my I don't know particularly my name because there's so many out there but there's one local source that's called bottled up blokes you were talking about being bottom up exactly that they're put peer support sessions there's no pressure people come along there's no time scale to them they do football sessions as well so people can go along and do some physical activity as well but it's it's that social aspect of saying actually you know we're struggling with certain things a bit so you know and it's just that space where people can go and and you know socialise and and have that support and you know it it's incredible and and there's so many elements of groups like this and I think what I found as well there's a lot of local groups that if you asked them they wouldn't necessarily say then mental health support groups but the activities they do absolutely support mental health so it's just getting those social activities getting people in a space to talk about things I think there's elements of you know somebody might go along to a social group to you know meet new people but what comes out of that is that actually the reason that they've you know they're quite socially isolated is that they're struggling with their mental health and those conversations come up and that's why those so groups are so important. So from our perspective it's how can we support those groups to deliver what they're doing. So you know in terms of getting volunteers in you know that support to be able to say actually you know if you weren't there where would these people go because there's nothing else out there and I I think there's a big huge amount of work that needs to go to make sure these groups can do what they do because a lot of them the majority of them are based on people that have gone through a similar experience and and want to put back and you support other people in that situation and it's shouting about it it's it's shouting about those those elements of what goes on because there's so much out there people I don't realise I think yeah 100% 100% and and I agree with the the whole kind of being vulnerable yourself and that and that's why on these on these episodes you know I I I can't sit here and because I don't have all the answers and I still have my struggle my struggles now but I can't expect you know people like you to come on and be vulnerable without me letting my guard down as well.

SPEAKER_03: 50:44

So that's that's I think a big part of it is I mean you've hit the nail on the head is bit you you know showing your vulnerability so someone else feels comfortable enough to show theirs.

SPEAKER_05: 50:56

Yeah yeah absolutely absolutely and normalising it because I think it's uh you know it it is difficult it's not easy and I know some people I find it easier is not the word but some people you know are more open you know than others and I think some but I think it's those people that aren't naturally open those people that aren't that find it particularly difficult the ones that really need that support to say actually it's okay it's it's all right it's not you know no one's gonna judge you it's actually but I think it's that safe space because as we know and obviously you do from from the social media side things people do and there's that element of saying well actually you're always going to get people that that are push back and judge an aspect but that should be a smaller and smaller majority and actually you know maybe they're going through things themselves that that make them react in that way that actually the the being able to do it and to be able to speak to it is is the right thing it's it's the best thing to do. So we we twist it a little bit to actually that's the positive side of things rather than maybe previously when nobody spoke about especially men in terms of it it wasn't right to talk about the struggles you have and you know my dad you know even my dad from the the from that generation you know didn't talk about the struggles went through you know that they dealt with it themselves they're out of the house they should be you know dealing with it themselves you know and that's the last generation so it's still a long way to go um but I think the more conversations that we have like this and people realise um and I think it's nice to have a mix of people as well in terms of you know those that are in the public eye those that aren't you different elements of things because because the big message is mental health issues affects everybody. At some point it affects everybody and so nobody's immune to it. So I think having that conversation and maybe realising it actually everybody's immune to it so why aren't we talking about it more I think it's really important.

SPEAKER_03: 52:37

We're in that generation I think where you know our our parents I think we're a similar age but you know my dad was the same and that and and his dad was the same and it's you're a man and that's what a man looked like and we're now in a generation where well we can't be like that anymore because we need change but also we don't know what we don't know what that change looks like. So we're in this really confusing kind of we've all got to figure it out like how do we change how do we help other people change and it's a di I it's it's tricky. I find it tricky but coming back to the what you said about social media it's it's what I've found is so social media for a lot of people is an escape. So if someone's having a bad time and a lot of the negative comments I get it's exactly what you said they are probably having struggles themselves and they've come online because that's their escape. They want to escape from their real from their real life so they come online and then they see someone else struggling they're like oh well this is not what I'm here for and it sort of touches a nerve and I've had so many conversations with people where they've they've they've put a really negative comment or something not very nice and I'll DM them and try and have a conversation and just like not not to be as as arrogant as like are you okay but I'll just try and see and just make sure and the amount of times where they'll immediately say oh I'm so sorry I shouldn't like I was just frustrated this has happened this morning and they'll take it out because I'm a person behind a screen but then when it becomes real oh it's a real person they've really messaged me and they're asking am I okay I've had so many conversations with people where they're like actually no I've so some aren't as extreme some are just I've just had a bad morning I'm just in a bad mood and I've just thought I'll just put it you know it's just a comment on the internet and and it is like that but you know those comments when when you're I'm quite thick skinned but sometimes I you know I'll I'll look through because I might be having a low day and I think I'm gonna I'll read through some comments to give me some support yeah but you have to read the negative ones to see the good ones and sometimes them negative comments like it can really knock you it can really knock you don't matter how like thick skinned you are and how much you're used to it but you can't see the positive without seeing the negative and that's that's the problem but hopefully with change hopefully with with talking and with education then we we we we can change that and the positive will outweigh the negative and it will become more normalized to just have these conversations and I don't think it it shouldn't matter where it shouldn't I like again I was judged a lot by well you shouldn't put it on social media well why shouldn't I put it on social media that's up to me if my channel I built my channel it it shouldn't be it shouldn't be well we want men to talk oh but hang on we want to choose where they're allowed to talk do you know what I mean it's kind and mine was extreme and I do understand that it was like well well hang on you we want you to talk but we don't want you to talk on social media it's like you can talk but within our rules and it shouldn't be like that and that's why another reason for the podcast no one can control that that that's that's that's that's where someone can come and they can tell their story and they can talk with no judgment and I think that's quite nice having that little safe space.

SPEAKER_05: 56:05

Absolutely and I think when you sound at the comments as well it's what I always think of it is majority 99% wouldn't make those face-to-face situation it's odd online and having be able to to say those things and it's you know it doesn't make it right because it shouldn't happen like you say it can impact somebody if you're having a bad time or struggling you it can just take one of those comments that can set you back massively and you know so I I think there's a there's that balance isn't there about kind of trying to understand why people do it and having that understanding that they're going through a bad time but also the education that it's not right either do you mean in terms of there's no people wouldn't make face to face and yeah I think there's it's getting that balance isn't there of trying to understand why people are doing it and I think the fact that you reach out's incredible and I think that's amazing in terms of understand that but also the education that it's it's not right what you know people doing that you know what for whatever reason whether it's frustration whatever it is the impact it can have on on you or the people reading those comments is huge. And actually that element of maybe we all have it don't we're frustrated or upset with something but taking that moment to think about what do we actually want to achieve by making these comments by saying these things I think it's something you know in life generally as well you in terms of when you when you're talking to people you know when you when you're you know taking that moment of thinking okay if I if I'm gonna be saying something that's going to criticise them what's the purpose of it because ultimately you know the impact it can have on that something you might really not realise it straight away because you might be like somebody like us in terms of that will just laugh it off and just but then go away and you start thinking about it don't you you start thinking about someone that said why have they said it you know all those elements and and the knock on a fence could be massive you know and I think that's a big part of uh just the way we are generally in in society in terms of actually it's it's the whole about being kind and the kindness line of it but I think it's a big aspect of of that in saying you know you don't necessarily always have to be kind but you don't always have to you know be negative because that's going to have an impact on somebody that's you know you don't know where that's going to go. So I think it's just being being self-aware I think is really important.

SPEAKER_03: 58:06

I think that's a great I think that is a great great point yeah like you're right you don't always have to be kind but you but you don't ever have to be unkind and and and and then we could take two two extremes I guess of an example you've got where we're talking about the world of social media or you know TV radio whatever you you've got Caroline Flack and people were unkind. That was the problem people were unkind them the news were unkind there was all these constant she was just getting bashed and bashed and bashed and then she died by suicide and it's that is an extreme version just because people were being unkind and there's no no need for it. There was absolutely no need for it and the media it's disgusting what they put her through but you're also right in in a sense of I guess you don't know what someone just your everyday person is going through. So whereas you know they might they might look a certain way they might have said something they might be in work they might be working at Tesco's and might not be very chatting you might say you might make a comment or they might do something and that you might complain to their manager but you don't know what they're going through in their own life if it doesn't affect you then just just sometimes you've got to kind of live and let live and just think that person could be because I've had conversations with people that they go to work and they put on this front but actually they genuinely in their mind that I I don't know if I'll come back tomorrow and you could be the person that says that thing that pushes them over the edge and you don't trust me no you do not want that on your conscience no one does so you're I think that's such a great way to look at it is is you don't always have to be kind but you don't ever have to be unkind. I think that's that's really powerful. Well look just before we wrap up I just want to ask in terms of your mental health now how are you doing now?

SPEAKER_05: 59:55

Um yeah yeah I'm I'm in a much better place than I was I think what I've realized is that never never fully goes away because it in terms of the challenges in life just normal life there's always those challenges in there um so uh uh you know went through a lot and I think something something said to me when I was I was talking about it is that this element of going through this process in the long term does make it stronger because it makes you be able to deal with things but it never remains to it so you know that the element of the challenges but I think what it has done is made me realize I can recognise more when I'm struggling when I'm going through the difficult times you know at that point before it becomes a real serious issue because that's how I'm going to need something whether it's an idea somebody who's open up about it. So I think I've tried the positives of the last few years in the sense of that it's maybe a better high school because I've not been uh sort of bad about the fact that I've still struggled you know there's still elements of things that are still going on so but not much better I think it's I think having these little conversations generally within work outside of the you know kind of it it's it's it's too way where it helps me in the sense of and you know being honest about that and it's like hopefully other people can see that actually you know it's like having it's it's like I'd have these issues and and other people talk about and maybe you know going to scoot someone's not bad things I think it helps that process.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:16

That's amazing that's amazing to care I'm glad that you've you've you've you've you've suddenly learned something from it with it a lot better than what you had to do a few years ago. And your daughter obviously you mentioned about her recent disorder how is she how is she now how would she type in with her mental health as well.

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:31

Yeah but she's still going to she's um it's a fairly new thing so she's got the support before about the challenges about getting that support that was the biggest biggest challenge getting the support now you know that it's good days and bad days I think that the mental health side of things is the big one I think social media for her well it's there we talk a lot about young girls what I would talk about maybe about men's mental health but young girls on social media it's just it's a mindfield of you know how people should look in the aspect of things I think I I realize that during this period as well so again we've learned a lot from that perspective as well but I think with stronger in terms of our talk about it and we've tried and I think maybe we go for the last five years I'm hoping has made that conversation much with her about her bit how to open up and talk about the challenges she can see that you know I do it well I think if if if we'd had her earlier maybe ten years ago I probably wouldn't have dealt with things in the same way and it may have led to her being a bit more closed up about it. So again trying to focus on the positive open she can see actually it's like you know if if if my dad can talk about it's open eyes I'm hoping that's that's what she took from it as well.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:42

Yeah and I'm sure she will and it's incredible that you you do have that openness about it. I can't you know I can't I just think it's incredible and you should be really really proud you know as a as a dad it's good that she's got that supporting at work. That's I think all any parent would want is to for their child to to be able to the fact that you and again I'm not an expert in any of this but the fact that you know that she has these in disorder is more than perhaps what a lot of parents will know. And the fact that you do know means you can whether she opened up whether you found that whatever it doesn't matter you know which means you can be a support number for us. So that's that's incredible.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:24

Now I always like to end on something a bit more positive because these could you know popcots can get a bit a bit heavy we talk about some serious topics like I always ask if if you've got if you've either got a joke that you'd like to tell or if you've got something that's happened in the last couple of weeks a few weeks a couple of months whatever something that's made you laugh and genuinely like a bit or a bit of a nice moment or just something positive to end up putting pressure to prepare this what made me laugh positive not a joke nothing to joke positive sides let me think you've got me thinking now and there's got to be something about a big big part of me now I was always into football my thing football's almost always my spot I've got football I've got I've got a spot I mean football the last two or three years he's suddenly got into musical theatre which we've got it's a completely new world today and the last got 12 months and things in the sense of going on to shows and being along you know these it's just these it's just a different world you know as people it's all like you know going back to my outside but you know it's a different world in terms of how positive everybody is and they just it's this this network of people in in musical theatre that they just they just come across as just loving everything about it and you can't help but enjoy it and be part of it because you know it's not it's not really a funny story but I think it maybe it's a message design if if people are struggling go along and watch something musical theatre because I never would if you'd asked me 12 months ago and then I would have probably laughed about it that's we'd go along and watch some ridiculous show of people in drag or something like that. You can't not smile in the sense of thinking you know these 15, 16 year olds loving it on stage dressed in all sorts and I think from a mental health perspective it's the best thing I I would always do. I think probably a learning thing is if I was in I would go and go and watch some musical theatre thing in terms of just for an hour because it's the best thing in afterwards because we just haven't it's infectious.

SPEAKER_03: 1:05:33

That is one thing I mean this week a a friend of mine was was he was he had a a couple of drinks not it wasn't a one of those parts we came really it was there's a lot of music and a lot of stuff and there was this this guy that I've met we've become friends now and is is in his 50s and he was just dancing and he was he was dancing but no one was watching and it was infectious he would have this big smile on his face everyone around him was getting involved and it was just you know you couldn't not feel good because you could you could easily look a bit his his in and his his being a bit out there no one thought that everyone thought it's just so infectious it was just so lovely to watch and it was such a feel good feeling so yeah I mean that's that's incredible I think um thank you so much for joining me on the podcast it it was genuinely such a real pleasure to talk to you I hope we can stay in touch and I think you know you're you're the fact that you do what you do and you advocate for openness around mental health and just like I said that and then need to be more people like you in the world. So thank you for coming up story.

SPEAKER_05: 1:06:42

Thank you for talking so openly and yeah I look forward to I look forward to catching up with you soon I've and it's keep doing what you do and it's just quite some of the negative side of the thing I think it's really powerful and talk so thank you for what you're doing as well.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:57

Thank you James I really appreciate I appreciate it and I appreciate you supporting me over the years watching the videos and the contents of yeah thank you mate James and Walker is just a great advocate for openness around mental health so it was a pleasure speaking to him. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time it's definitely not therapy

SPEAKER_04: 2:03:08

Hello, how are you doing, your eyes? Yeah, good, not too bad, thank you. I can. Yeah, it's all good, all clear. Not too bad. Not too bad at all. Looking forward to it.

SPEAKER_01: 2:04:14

Absolutely. Absolutely. No worries. Yep. Yeah, sounds good. Sounds good.

SPEAKER_04: 2:04:50

No, no, no, no. No, absolutely. No problem at all.

SPEAKER_01: 2:05:00

Yeah. Yeah, no. No worries. I've got no headphones. Is that all right? Can you hear me okay?

SPEAKER_04: 2:05:53

No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01: 2:06:06

No worries.

SPEAKER_05: 2:08:52

No, no, I I think I think you're absolutely right. And I think it is, you know, and I'm going to talk about men and men particularly, and I think it is difficult to share and open up and um that sort of stigma around it. I think for me personally, I think it was I I I I think I was always one of these people that was always kind of the happy one, always the always a smiley one, always trying to make people happy. And I suppose when that was fine for a long period of time, but I think when you get you have the struggles yourself, it's difficult to kind of open up when you've always been that way. So it's always a challenge because you know, people expect a certain thing of you. So when you are struggling, you feel like you just have to get on with it and just have to make sure everyone else is okay around you. Um so I think that was a big part of the problem is when it first started happening, and I realised I was having struggles, but I didn't know how to deal with it personally. And who speaks to people like you have people around you have people love you do all those aspects of things, but how you speak to them and you know, changing that aspect of things. So I I I realised that I was I was struggling and things are impacting work and personal life and things like that. So I was lucky that I work in a in an environment that that supports people with mental health. So I kind of knew a little bit about what was out there a little bit, so it would be very much about sort of trying to get that support. And I think I I didn't go down the statute room, I went to an church, they did talking therapies, which which is yeah, which is great, but it's a massive challenge in terms of you know the waiting lists and all the aspects of it, and you sat there for six, eight months waiting to get support when when that's the point you need that support. And I think looking back now, I think having these sort of conversations with people I think would have really helped because I think you feel like you're sat there, you know, dealing with all these issues, but you have no way of sort of getting out of there from that perspective. So I think during that period of waiting for that support, you know, things got really difficult, really, really hard. Um then I kind of dealt with um during that period as well, had some sort of bereavement close to me as well, not my parents, but I've lost both of them in a short period of time. I think all of all of that really combined really hit me hard, you know, and that was probably five, six years ago. And I think still now I'm in a better place than I was, but I think there was a big period of just dealing with it on my own, feeling like I was on my own about it, you know, and it impacted a massive part of me, you know, and and my family hoped to smell two kids and dealing with sort of health issues with them as well. It was a period of time that I think it felt like everything happened at once, but there but there was no outlet, there was no outlet to talk about it, and there was no place to to to speak. So you do feel like you you're on your own quite a lot. So yeah, I think that that was that was the period that was really difficult. Yeah, yeah, I I think you're right. I think it is, and I think I think I realize quite you know, over the last five years that that was my way of dealing with things, um, which is fine, but when things get tough, then you don't know you haven't got that kind of that that strength is the wrong word, but you don't know how to deal with those struggles because that's kind of the way you mask it and you get through an aspect of that. I think there's an element of you know, people kind of not knowingly, but also expect you because that's the way you've always been to be the one that makes other people feel better and always looking at that side of things. But actually, when you're struggling, how does that work? And again, it doesn't get people close to you, you know, it's difficult because you've masked it for so long. How they don't know then how to support you when you're struggling, and I think that's that's a massive issue. It's an issue. I think you say it don't you've got comedians on state, you hear about all these people that have these mental health struggles, and that's their way that they deal with it, but then when they're struggling, don't know how to manage it, and I think that's a massive issue. I think I hear it more and more about you know, having conversations like this around sort of mental health is you know, people deal with it in a very different way, and it's a it does seem to be generally those ones that you know maybe maybe it's the element of trying to make other people feel better because you know how difficult it is and you're struggling yourself and actually making other people feel better makes you feel a bit better, maybe.

SPEAKER_01: 2:16:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 2:16:18

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05: 2:16:19

And I think that's that assumption, isn't it? It's that whole thing, isn't it, around how people are outside is you don't really know what's going on the inside, and I think just asking that question and having that element of people that you know just because on the outside they might seem like they're okay. Actually, there's a lot going on, and you know, and I think it's down to be confident. I think we are moving in the right direction, but down to have those conversations and answering those questions, and also listening. I think there's an element within mental health sometimes where people ask a question, but I'm actually listening to the answer. It's just kind of that standard okay. I mean, as things are moving on, actually listening and you know, taking those indications of actually maybe that person is struggling. Um, so I I think there's an element both ways in the sense of I think us talking about it and being confident to us talking about the struggles and actually admitting we're not okay, but also the other person actually wanting to hear the answer rather than just doing it because it feels like it's the right thing to do. I think we're all terrible at that in terms of saying, Are you okay? We would do it done as an English thing in terms of you're right and just carry on walking. But it's actually that that real you know, desire to know actually, do you mean it are you okay? Is there anything that we can do? It's sometimes just listening, isn't it? Sometimes just listening and hearing what people are going through.

SPEAKER_01: 2:19:13

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 2:19:19

Absolutely. I mean, I mean, in terms of in my professional work, I work within the voluntary sector, so we deal with a lot of, so we don't deliver mental health support, but we work with professionals within statutory services and a lot of local groups and things, and there's absolutely that's right, exactly what you said there. If something's not in mental health what's past the mental health crisis, it's it's really difficult to get that support. You know, it's waiting for this, but absolutely services out there. And I think there's so much reliance on some of those groups, you know, literally doing basically what you were doing here from the podcast on a local level, getting getting people together, talking about the challenge, having honest conversations, and so that's the peer support is so important. But you know, it's the the the trouble that we. Is that you know there's a real we we understand that people who are part of it can see the value of it. But you know, when you're talking about statutory and funding and aspects of that, people don't see it's so difficult to put it on paper the impact of that on individuals and actually having that space to go and talk about the challenges, you know, and it may be then one hour a week where they can be honest about things, they can talk about the struggle, and then they can they go off and go back to their normal life and carry on from that. And the feedback from that is that it's so important, just having that time to with people that understand what you're going through, like you say, you know, people at different levels that struggles, but being able to have those honest conversations, and it's so important. But what we're seeing is there's less and less than about because you know it's it's funding support, resources for it is just not there. So it's kind of a big element of actually having that space because I think when you get to a point when you when you're struggling, where you feel that you need somewhere to talk to, because it's not easy, is it, in terms when you are struggling, you need that support then and there because you know you may feel strong enough at terms. Hold on, I need I need some support now. You know, if you're waiting six months, you know, anything can happen during that six months, you might not be ready for you. You need that support there to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01: 2:21:10

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 2:22:42

And that's not unique either. You know, we come across that in terms of people with ideas, and you know, you know that it's needed, you know, charities are really good in terms of identifying the need locally in terms of actually saying because a lot of them are people who have been through the same issues, you know, it's people that I've been through and thinking actually we they'd really need the support here. But you know, to be able to get it off the ground to deliver it in the in the right sort of way, it needs that support, and you're absolutely right, people are in their own little world, there's the elements, and you know, it's it's about it's so difficult. And I think charities are so important to mental health in terms of delivering and then aspect of that. Something needs to change to be able to enable them to do it because what happens is you know, if these charities don't set up as the people that they're supporting, where are they going to go? They're either going to go off you know on their own, you know, whatever's gonna happen, or go straight back through the system in terms of something that's gonna overwhelm that side of things. So it's it's it's so difficult, but something needs to change around charities because I think ultimately they're there, they're there, they respond to need, you know. But how how can we encourage organisations to support them to deliver what's needed? Because it is, because there's no other organizations that are delivering that in terms of being that support for individuals, it's so important.

SPEAKER_01: 2:25:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 2:26:03

Yeah, absolutely. And and I and I saw it in terms of obviously because I followed your channel and sort of saw the elements of things, but you could see, you know, when you were struggling and that switch, but you could see people pushing back uh on that element of things. But actually, your your story in terms of what you've been through is a perfect example of of you know of a real person having challenges. This this is this is their you know public side of the thing what you're gonna cross, but these are the challenges, and you're absolutely right. That's for me what people need to see that actually there is an element, and nobody nobody's averse from from dealing with mental health issues. It can happen to everybody. I think most people go through some sort of mental health challenges at some point in their lives. And I think the whole social media thing can be, you know, we talk about my daughter's going through all sorts of challenges at the moment, but social media can come across as this perfect world kinds of people put on there, what's great and all the aspects of it, and trying to teach people, especially young people, but it's not all that it, you know, it seems this is this is a this is a stone that people put on social media, you know. So to have somebody that is part of that world that actually links into that actually, there is part of this that we struggle as well. This this is you know normal life as well. I think it's really powerful. And I think more people need to be doing that so that people that are on social media, again, especially young people, can see that actually, okay, you know, everybody can struggle, everyone has those issues. How can we support each other to do that? So I think it's but I think some of the pushback that you get and people get highlights that still a lot of work to do because people people don't see that there is two parts of that. And you know, I I think it could be dangerous if you have a social media persona that doesn't show the real side of things because that can you know suggest to be if somebody is struggling, be seeing actually, oh everyone's all fine, everyone's already happy and grey, everything's good, but actually seeing somebody that you recognise on social media is actually they go through it as well. I think it's really powerful. But it's it's true, it is true, and I think the whole element about online and the conversations I have with my kids about, you know, they'll sort of say, Well, you know, did you know this? and they'll refer to something on YouTube, and it's having that conversation saying, you know, everything on you know online isn't necessarily you know accurate, it's not you know, as elements, and I think there is a real issue with that. Do you know what I mean? An issue in terms of actually taking what's and that realization sometimes there is that blurred line, isn't there? So I think when somebody comes out and is quite clear about that, you know, that difference between online and real life, I think sometimes that can make people think about things. I think that's a really good thing. But I think the problem is more people need to do it because otherwise it becomes unique to you or to someone that's doing that, sort of saying, you know. So I think it's it's how can we get those elements of that reality to be able to for people to understand that everything online isn't necessarily real life and it's okay to have both of them.

SPEAKER_01: 2:32:10

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 2:32:16

It was hard because it took a lot for me to reach out for that support because I was still at that element of, and I think looking back now, I'd been struggling for a long period of time, but either didn't necessarily realize it or thought it's one of those things I'll get over it. So it was an element of you know, just just those basic things of the struggling in the mornings and motivation, just those elements of things. And I think it was when I started realizing it was impacting me at home in terms of obviously, you know, kids, you know, young kids, and there's those elements of that impact on them. I thought, actually, I don't want again because I was always the the positive one, always always the one to mine. I I noticed the difference in me. And I thought, well, actually, I don't want them as they're growing up to to kind of see that side of things. So it took a lot for me to reach out from that perspective. So to do that, to go through that process, you know, and it's still you feel quite vulnerable at that point as well to be able to do that, but then to say, yeah, okay, and then you just left, and there's no there's no contact, and it's kind of just a case of just waiting for, you know, in terms of waiting. So you feel you start questioning yourself, I think, in terms of you know, to do it because I think you go through through phases, don't you? In terms of you feel a bit strong, you think, yeah, I need this, I don't want to do this support. And then you have a day you're thinking, no, I can't do it, I don't want to do it anymore. And I think I went through that whole phase for those few months to sort of say, Well, there's no point now, I'm not gonna do it anymore, or yeah, I'm ready, but there was nothing there. So it's it's hard. And I think it makes you question yourself as well. Do you feel like am I wasting people's time? Is it something that you know if there's a big weight for something? Is there somebody else that could use that support more than I could? So I think it it creates a lot of uncertainty for me anyway, in the sense of saying actually it is are my issues worth taking this this service out because we know how struggled they are. But I think what what got for me is during that period, my circumstances changed because it was during that period that we lost my mum. So um that was obviously a whole nother element of something that that came on top of everything else. So when when the service did start, I was in a completely different place then, obviously, in terms of I was dealing with bereavement and grief and that side of things as well. And you know, I went along and basically was told that it wasn't the right service for me at that point because it was grief and bereavement, and and trying to explain that wasn't the reason. I don't you know, I signed up in the first place, I was dealing with it, made it really difficult.

SPEAKER_04: 2:34:37

So it was kind of so I was back to start again.

SPEAKER_05: 2:34:47

Yeah, but basically, yeah, absolutely. And it was kind of it was this because it is it's it it feels like a one size fits all. So I went through this this aspect of you know, mental health, you know, challenges in terms of all those aspects. But as soon as it becomes a different form of mental health, you know, for me it was it was Breedman, then that needs to be something else. But again, what what was interesting is that they were relying on on uh charity. So Cruz was the one, and and Cruz do fantastic work, they really do. But they're a charity, and again, there's another waiting list to go through that process. So you know, you can't, you know, there's an element of sort of saying you need this support, but there isn't we'll support you up until this point is the case of okay, then you need to go to them and they'll support you. So that's another god knows how many months. And so you're in this void of just having no support, you know. And every service that I've been involved in, when you get that support, when it's appropriate, it's fantastic, it's great. But the challenge seems to be actually accessing that right support, and there seems to be no links between them to be able to support somebody just because I was dealing with bereavement, it did it didn't mean that my mental health issues that had got me to that place improved, probably the worse because of that situation. But it was a case of and and that's all they seemed to hear was okay, your your issue at the moment is grief and bereavement, you need to go to this organization. So it it just it was I just felt in a complete and and that whole loneliness, that thing you were talking about about feeling lonely and isolated, just felt more because there was nothing there.

SPEAKER_01: 2:36:17

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 2:36:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 2:36:44

And and you know, and I think I'm I hear I hear stories about this, and you hear people going through these processes of you know, plucking up the courage, getting getting that strength wherever it's from to be able to look for support, but when it's not there, or you know, you're you're pushed somewhere else, or there's elements of things. Again, I think I mentioned my daughter briefly, she she deals with it with an eating disorder. We have the same issue with there in terms of a charity and a statutory, and we went through a long phase of getting the right support for her in terms of well, these aren't writing me to go down, and it was months and months, and it's it's so dangerous in the sense when people are going through this process because I don't think it's acknowledged how tough it is for people to make that first step, that first step to get support. We know it's so difficult to be open and honest about it. I think I think a lot of services see that first step as when you've asked for help, but there's so much before that in terms of building up that maybe talking to people around you, having those acknowledgement as a challenge. That's that's that's an important part of it, but so much has gone on beforehand, and I and I can see where people can fall through the gaps and people you know struggle and and disengage and all those aspects of things and get themselves into a real hole, not because they don't want that support, but they just the the system and the process isn't there to be able to support them.

SPEAKER_01: 2:38:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 2:39:02

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the that's the theme that I see from my experience and people I sport in work and aspects. Yeah, often you know there is challenges around the services that are out there, and there is a lot of gaps, and I'd say that's what the charity organizations really do step in. But I think the biggest challenge is actually getting access to that support in the first place. Because, like I say, you know, once you're in that and you've got that support, I think there are options there, but it's it's getting that point, and that's the period for me that's so makes people so vulnerable. And that's that's the most important part is that beginning of getting access and getting that support. I think in both of my person and my daughter, is that that that those months was the bit that looking back, I think if things had been moved quicker, if there was more support put in place, we'd probably be in a very different place, you know. And and I'm lucky I've got I've got people around me, but still, you know, that there's an element of you know, it's it's it's so dangerous that that that period. And you know, I would deal again. My work perspective, some of the work we do is around suicide prevention and aspects of that. You know, again, you hear people that have gone through you know that that that mindset and those challenges, a lot of it is around I just felt I was on my own, there wasn't there was no one there to support me of these issues that are going through that, so many elements of it. So I think as a theme, as a as an ongoing challenge, is how can we get people to access the support that's out there as quick as possible because it's that it's that period of time that you know anything can happen, and I think that that's that strength is needed, but not everybody's got that strength, and you shouldn't have that. The strength is asking for help, and then it's that case of people coming in to to offer that support and and linking in. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where you talk about these groups and conversation like this in the sense of that I think that's so important because you know, we we can argue about the system in times, and I think absolutely there's something that needs to be done about it. We also know you know how the system is at the moment. So it's kind of you know, these these opportunities open up where people can go and sit with no pressure as an element of you know, be able to talk about, you know, sometimes people want to talk about the struggles, some people just want to just listen and realize that other people are going through something similar as well. I think it's so important to normalise that and have those options where actually it's a fairly normal thing, you know, because you can have mental health struggles, you know, sort of it's not always like a long-term aspect. Sometimes you can just be going through a really difficult period of time and actually be able to have that option to be able to go and and talk about it to open up and then go back to your life, you know. So that sometimes that helps as well. I think I think things are moving in the right direction because there's more opportunities for that, but there's still so much we can all do to have actually you know, everybody's troubles at some point, everyone's has difficult times, you know. Let's be open and honest about it and have to have those those conversations because like you say, sometimes it's just being able to have time listening to you for for for 20 minutes to talk about it and sort of you know, not necessarily anything, you know, because sometimes there's nothing you can say, just having that time to listen because I think you do everyone's so busy in your life, so busy, there's so many pressures. Just having that time to be able to you know focus on your struggles, be able to normalize it and then carry on I think that's so important. I think it's it's under undervalued sometimes in terms of how how much that's how important that is, and having more options of that. I think there's always pushback in terms of people feeling that you know what mental health is and the struggles on there, but I think we get we're slowly getting to a point when it's becoming more normal to be able to talk about it and and it's okay to have struggles, and actually, how how can we share those? And I think there's a lot more work that still could be done. I I suppose it's two elements really. I I think there's there's a yeah, personal life advocacy, which I think we can all do. And I think it's just and I think it is sometimes about showing that vulnerability yourself as well. It's all very easy, isn't it, for us to say, Oh, you should talk to somebody to do that. But if if I was saying that, but then I was you know sat in my room and not doing that, it's you know, it's it's it's showing that it's okay. So I think the elements of that as well and showing that that it's just part of you know, it does help as a positive thing. So it's it's leading by example in the sense of the outers that actually it's okay. You know, it's not easy, it's not by no means an easy thing, but it is definitely the right thing to do. It's something on a personal level, I think that's really important, hence why I'm on it today in the sense it's actually you know, we we go through struggles, but it's okay to talk about it. Do you know what I mean? It's you know it's okay to share that because, like you say, it helps me from a perspective of talking about it again, and hopefully you say there's somebody listening or watching us think actually, you know, maybe maybe I should I I can do that, maybe there's somebody I can talk to, then I think that's absolutely you know, absolutely key. I think on the professional level, it's it's kind of our role really we don't deliver mental health services, but we support those organizations that do so. You were talking about those local groups. The one that comes to mind, I don't remember taking my name because there's so many out there, but there's one local start that's called bottled up blokes that you're talking about being bottled up exactly that they're putting pick support sessions, there's no pressure people come along, there's no time scale to them, they do football sessions as well, so people can go along and do some physical activity as well. But it's it's that social aspect of that, actually, you know, which problem with certain things a bit so you know it's just that space where people can go and and you know socialize and have that support, and you know, it's incredible. And there's so many elements of groups like this. And I think what I found as well is a lot of local groups that if you ask them, they wouldn't necessarily say their mental health support groups, but the activities they do absolutely support mental health, so it's just getting those social activities, getting people in a space to talk about things. I think there's elements of you know, somebody might go along to a social group to you know meet new people, but what comes out of that is that actually the reason that they're you know they're quite socially isolated is because they're struggling with the mental health and those conversations come up, and that's what those groups are so important. So, from our perspective, it's how can we support those groups to deliver what they're doing? So, you know, in terms of getting volunteers in you know that support about us that actually you know if you weren't there, where would these people go? Because there's nothing else out there, and I think there's a big, huge amount of work that needs to go to make sure these groups can do what they do because a lot of them, the majority of them are based on people that have gone through a similar experience and and want to put back and support other people in that situation. And it's shouting about it, it's it's shouting about those those elements of what goes on because there's so much out there people I don't realise, I think. And normalizing it because I think it's uh you know, it it is difficult, it's not easy, and I know some people uh find it easier not the word, but some people, you know, are more open, you know, than others. And I think some but I think it's those people that aren't naturally open, those people that aren't that find it particularly difficult, the ones that really need that support to actually it's okay, it's it's all right, it's not you know, no one's gonna judge you. It's actually, but I think it's that safe space because as we know, and especially people do, and there's the element of saying actually you're always gonna get people that that push back and judge an aspect, but that should be a smaller and smaller majority, and actually, you know, maybe they're going through things themselves that that make them react in that way, but actually the the being able to do it and to be able to speak to it is is the right thing, it's it's the best thing to do. So we we twist it a little bit so that actually that's the positive side of things rather than maybe previously when nobody spoke about, especially men, in terms of it, it wasn't right to talk about the struggles you have. And you know, my my dad, you know, even my dad from the the from that generation, you know, didn't talk about the struggles, went through you know that they dealt with it themselves in the man that have they should be and dealing with it themselves, you know, and that's the last generation, so it's still a long way to go. But I think the more conversations that we have like this, and people realise, and I think it's nice to have a mix of people as well, in terms of you know, those that are in the public eye, those that aren't in different elements of things, because because the big message is mental health issues affects everybody. At some point, it affects everybody. Um, so nobody's immune to it. So I think having that conversation and maybe realizing it that actually everybody's immune to it. So why aren't we talking about it more? I think it's really important.

SPEAKER_04: 2:57:31

I don't know why it was going so loud.

SPEAKER_01: 2:57:34

Sorry, I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_05: 2:58:34

I always think of it as majority, 99% of people wouldn't make those comments if it was a face-to-face situation. It's online and having been able to say those things, and it's you know, it doesn't make it right because it shouldn't happen. Like you say, it can impact somebody if you're having a bad time or are struggling, if it can just take one of those comments that can set you back massively, and you know, so I I think there's a there's that balance, isn't there, about kind of trying to understand why people do it and having that understand that they're going through a bad time, but also the education that it's not right either. Do you mean in terms of there's no benefit, there's no posity of doing that. You're only gonna you know potentially impact this somebody or somebody else, it might not be you, it could be somebody else who's watching it and who's reading those comments, which makes it really difficult. So it's it's it's it's hard, and I think it's it's getting that balance.

SPEAKER_04: 2:59:48

I don't know what's going on, something's going on with my internet keeps cutting out. Apologies, it was it was fine for a while. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 3:00:07

Yeah, yeah, just just I think you know it's the element, especially with social media that there's comments that are made that people wouldn't make face to face. And I think it's getting that balance, isn't there, of trying to understand why people are doing it. And I think the fact that you reach out is incredible, and I think that's amazing to understand that, but also the education that it's it's not right. What you know, people doing that, you know, what for whatever reason, whether it's frustration, whatever it is, the impact it can have on you or the people reading those comments is huge. And actually that element of maybe we all have a don't we're frustrated or upset with something, but taking that moment to think about what do we actually want to achieve by making these comments, by saying these things. I think it's something you know in life generally as well, you know, in terms of when you when you're talking to people, you know, when you when you're you know taking that moment to think, okay, if I'm gonna be saying something that's gonna criticize them, what's the purpose of it? Because because ultimately, you know, the impact it can have on that something you might not realize it's going to work, you might be like somebody like us in terms of it will just laugh it off and just but then go away and you start thinking about it, don't you? You start thinking about what someone said, why have they said it, you know, all those elements and the knock on a thing could be massive, you know. I think that's a big part of uh just the way we are generally in in society, in terms of actually it's the whole I don't know, it's that big about being kind and the kindness side of it, but I think it's a big aspect of that in saying, you know, you don't necessarily always have to be kind, but you don't always have to, you know, be negative because that's going to have an impact on somebody that's you know, you don't know where that's gonna go. So I think it's just being being self-aware, I think, is really important.

SPEAKER_01: 3:03:18

Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05: 3:03:28

Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm a much better place than I was. I think what I've realized is that it never fully goes away, does it, in terms of the challenges and life, just normal life, there's always those challenges in there. Um, so uh but you know, been through a lot, and I think somebody somebody said to me when I was talking to them about it is that this element of going through this process in the long term does make you stronger because it makes you be able to deal with things, but you're never immune to it. So, you know, the elements of the challenges, but I think what it has done is made me realize what I can recognise more when I'm struggling, I'm going through difficult times, you know, at that point before it becomes a real serious issue to be able to actually say I'm gonna need something, whether it's I need to go talk to somebody or just open up about it. So I think I tried to spend the positives of the last few years in the sense of that naturally to maybe a better place for also not being uh sort of like that about the fact that it's still struggle, you know, there's still elements of things that are still going on. So but much better place. And I think it's I think having these sort of conversations generally within work and outside of it, you know, being able to it it's it's a two-way really, it helps me in the sense of being able to go and you know be honest about that, and like you say, hopefully other people can see that actually, you know, it's okay and it's it's okay to have these issues and and other people talking about, so maybe you know going to speak to someone's not a bad thing. So I think it helps that process. Yeah, I mean, she's still going through it. She's she's I mean, it's a fairly new thing for her. So she's got the support. Like we said before, about the challenges about getting that support, that was the biggest, biggest challenge. She is getting support now. You know, that there's good days and bad days. I think that the mental health side of things was the big one. I think social media for her, like you said, we talked a lot today about it for young girls. I know we're talking mainly about men's mental health, but young girls on social media, it's just it's a mindfield of you know how people should look and the aspect of things. I think I realised that during this period as well. So again, we've learned a lot from that perspective as well. But I think we're stronger in terms of being able to talk about it and we've tried. And I think maybe me going through the last five years, I'm hoping, has made that conversation relation with her about her being able to open up and talk about the challenges because she can see that you know I do it as well. So I think she if if we'd had her earlier, maybe 10 years ago, I probably wouldn't have dealt with things in the same way, and it may have led to her being a bit more closed up about it. So again, trying to focus on the positives, I'm hoping she can see actually it's okay, you know, if if if if if my dad can talk about it, so can I. So I'm hoping that's that's what she took from it as well. That's how yeah, I know. I should have prepared this, shouldn't I? Uh, what made me laugh? Something positive. I'm not very good at jokes, I won't do jokes. Positive size, let me think. You've got me thinking now. There's got to be something about a big, big part of me now. So I was always into foot football is my thing. Football's all my always my I've loved football. I've got I've got a son, I used to always play football. The last two or three years, he's suddenly got into musical theatre, which which is completely completely new to me, completely new world to me. And the last sort of 12 months and things, in the sense of going on to shows and being along to, you know, these uh it's just a different world, you know, these people you talk about, you know, going back to the outside, but you know, it's a different world in terms of how positive everybody is, and they're just this this this network of people in in musical theatre that they just they just come across as just loving everything about it, and you can't help but enjoy it and be part of it because you know it's not I suppose it's not really a funny story, but I think maybe it's a message of saying if if people are struggling, go along and watch something in musical theatre because I never would have if you'd asked me 12 months ago and I would have probably laughed about it, but actually going along and watch some ridiculous show of people in drag or something like that. You can't not smile, do you know what I mean? In the sense of seeing you know these 15, 16-year-olds loving it on stage, dressed in all sorts. And I think from a mental health perspective, it's the best thing. I I would always do, I think, probably a learning thing. It's if I was struggling, I would go and go and watch some musical theatre thing in terms of just for an hour because it's the best thing in afterwards, because people are just having fun, and that's an actions. So thank you for what you're doing as well.

SPEAKER_01: 3:11:24

No worries at all. Thanks for having me. Cheers now. Take care. Cheers.