The Power of Personality — with Eric Gee

This week on The Self-Help Podcast with Deepali, I’m joined by Eric Gee — a compelling author and personality-based life coach who’s reshaping how we understand ourselves and others. 

As the founder of The Youtopia Project, Eric brings a fresh and human-centered approach to personality typing, helping us communicate better, lead with clarity, and connect beyond our “usual packs.”

In this conversation, we unpack his book, The Power of Personality, explore common misconceptions about personality types, and learn how to approach others with deeper empathy—and less assumption. This episode is insightful, practical, and genuinely fun.

🧠 What You’ll Learn

-What personality types really mean (beyond the stereotypes)

-How to better communicate with people who think differently than you

-Why personality tools can deepen relationships—not box us in

-The story behind The Youtopia Project

-Eric’s journey into personality-based life coaching

📘 Want More from Eric?

Explore The Youtopia Project / Grab his book: https://youtopiaproject.com/

Follow on Instagram: @youtopia_creative

Link to a personality assessment where listeners can discover their personality type: https://youtopiaproject.com/youtopia-16-assessment-2/

🎧 Love This Episode?

If this conversation made you think, laugh, or pause—please consider rating the show or leaving a review. It helps this podcast reach more humans who are searching for real conversations and tools to grow through life—not just go through it.

👉 Subscribe, follow, or drop a review wherever you’re listening. It means the world

Want to be a guest on The Self-Help Podcast with Deepali Nagrani? 

Send Deepali Nagrani a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/176231960508769160fda8526

Transcript

Welcome And The Four Packs

SPEAKER_01 0:26

A hunter when I need momentum. A shaman when life gets loud and tough. And a smith when I open my laptop at work and a sure. It has a personality of its own too. It's a gatherer, safe, wrong, and hopefully very welcoming. It's a hunter, bold, curious, unfurled. It's a shaman, deep thinking and hard-led, and also a smith, practical and actionable. Welcome back to the South Podcast with Midapali. This is the place where we turn linked experiences into useful language, where healing doesn't have to be loud, it just needs to be real. And today we are exploring this question. What if your personality isn't a label to real, but really that for you to follow? That for you to follow home. Today's guest has dedicated over 20 years exploring that way question. Joining us today is Eric Ghee. Eric is the author of The Power of Personality. He is a writing coach, an educator, and the creator of the Personality Tax Framework. So he talks about gatherers relating to safety community, hunters, momentum, and action, measurement, meaning, reflection, and introspection which equates to structure and precision. So welcome to the show. I'm very delighted to have you here today. Was that like a good description of from the bad stream? I'm sure you'll do a better job at it, but I was just going through your profile and I was so interested and I thought, okay, let me create some meaning out of it too.

Eric’s Origin Story With Typing

SPEAKER_00 2:04

No, that was great. You know, like it's I I don't necessarily know if I'm that great at uh expressing it in in the quickest way possible because you know, I I think there's a lot of different layers with each one, so it's really hard sometimes to just label them in one word, right? And I think that's an im I think that's an important thing when it comes to just thinking about personality types, is I know everyone's such in a rush to categorize, and I think the whole point is just to understand people better. And I think to understand people better, you have to understand there's a lot of nuances to every person that you're gonna meet.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

No, I 100% agree with you. The context is really, really broad and certainly nuances needed here. So for now, Eric, let's start with the story behind the method and the story behind what you do and why you do it. So where's the moment that made personality and personality typing suddenly impertinent and magic you?

SPEAKER_00 2:57

Yeah, you know, I don't know if there's any single moment. I think there's you know, and I think when people are in high school or junior high, let's say, and everyone's feeling a little insecure, no matter what personality type you are, I think people are still trying to figure out who they are and where do they fit in the world. For me, it was no different. I think I fit in pretty well on the outside, but inside I was always a little weird. Or by weird, I just mean like, you know, I didn't really want some of the things that other people wanted. You know, like I think a lot of people in school, they're focused on maybe going to school dances, like the social activities, or getting good grades and like really achieving that regard. I was not particularly interested in either. I think that was kind of a thing that I had to deal with. And in doing that, I discovered personality theory from when I was about 16 or 17 and really delved deep into that. And I think I've been doing it obviously for the last 30 years. And the cool thing is when you delve into it early, um, you it's like it's almost like a religion in a weird way, where you're like, you buy into it wholeheartedly because you know, obviously you have needs and you have like a certain emptiness in you. And I think once you really dive more into it, then you start seeing flaws, right? You start questioning certain things, and so to a certain extent, I started like when I was experimenting with let's say the Aneagram or Myers Briggs, I started to see different things that could be maybe better, maybe more accurate. And I started creating my own system, and I really started putting that into use when I owned my education company. And we had about maybe a thousand students a year, so we could really put that methodology into practice.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Incredible. And so is it safe to say that your curiosity began with yourself and then slowly but naturally very organically moved into just learning a lot more about other people and their personality traits? Is it is it like that or was it the other way around?

SPEAKER_00 4:44

No, definitely it's always not to sound narcissistic, but it always sounds starts with myself, you know? I think that's true with everyone. I think the motivation was I've always been interested in learning about people and knowing what someone is thinking really deep down inside. So I think that also played a part. Um, I know there's a lot of times people be interested in this topic because they want to learn how to sell something better, or like very practical reasons, like I want to work with my kids better. I want to hook up with someone, I want to hook up with my soulmate. You know, I think people sometimes gravitate towards personality typing for that reason. For me, it was definitely on a personal level, I wanted to know myself better and kind of understand the people around me better. But it's probably as apropos to my own personality type. I think every to each and every person we have our own motivations.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Really, and and so for you, was there a moment when a lot of this went from a topic that you felt deeply about, you were passionate about, and then this went from interesting, like as a personal hobby or something that you've been reading up a lot to really life-changing because I know you built your entire career around around it, or for the most part. You started your own education company and then you built on from there. So, how did the transition from personal to professional and you know really uh creating an impact came about?

SPEAKER_00 6:05

You know, it was actually just kind of fortunate. You know, I didn't I started my education company not even thinking about this at all. Like I just had an education company. Now I know that I used to work with a lot of students, and for me personally, I used it at an individual level. So it was something that I've used, you know, I also was a basketball coach or a youth basketball coach. I was an assistant scout master for the Boy Scouts, and for every one of those positions, like I integrated this kind of methodology within my behavior and my what I was planning on doing. But um, I didn't really think about doing that when I started my own education company. And then for some reason, I don't know why I wasn't thinking about that. Um, maybe a year into it, I was like, you know what would be really great? I think I should teach my teachers how to use this. And so for that, the next like nine years, because I had that for a decade, like it was spent using this kind of methodology to help because we did all one-on-one tutoring. So we would work one-on-one with students. So for me, it was it was uh behooved my tutors to like learn this kind of thing so that they could customize their lessons for each and one of each individual student. So yeah, that was probably the moment, like right like a year into owning my education company where I started, okay, like let's just put this to use right now.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Well, and and you're very humble, I must say. You were so honest in telling that you didn't really start with that idea of making it boom, but it just came to you and and then you were writing along with it. So great. Um I know you graduated from UCLA where you studied uh English literature and also screenwritings. Could you tell us a little bit about your book? And like, did you start the book while you were in your college years? How did the seed of the idea really come to you? Your book came out and is pretty successful and out there the part of personality. So tell us a little bit about it.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Yeah, you know, I didn't think about this started not early at all. Actually, I guess you it started, you could say it started really early and not early at all, in the sense like obviously these ideas have been festering. I've created the methodology, I taught it to my teachers and my education company, and also spoke about it at different companies and schools. So, in a sense, I've been doing this for quite a while in terms of disseminating this information. But in terms of in terms of the book form, that didn't come about until you know I had shuttered my education company and I started writing screenplays again because that obviously was my background. And it's also something fun and I wanted what I wanted to pursue. And I joined this writer's community, and one of my friends in the writers' community, well, we would always go to drinks afterwards, and I brought up, you know, my personality types, and I use animal types, so it's easy for people to remember. So, you know, you're either a fox personality or like, you know, a beaver personality. So everyone's like, oh, what animal am I? What animal am I? And everyone wanted to talk about this. And a friend of mine was like, Look, like everyone's super interested in this. You should actually, instead of writing your script, you should write a book on this. And I was like, oh no, no, I'm gonna keep doing my own thing. And uh she ended up putting in in the TV show that she was writing for um Apple T on Apple TV, it's called Mythic Quest. And it was, she put it in focused on one of the episodes that she wrote, and it was like all about like characters taking a test to get their animal type. And I was like, okay, like if it's interesting enough to be on television, then I guess I'll just write a book on it. And you know, I went through that process, and it took me a couple months to write it, which is thankfully not a long time. It took a longer time to get the publishing deal and stuff, which is arduous, an arduous and tedious process, but uh yeah, I'm I'm thankful that it all worked out in the end.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

And and so your friends did play a role in you getting to this and like finally making sure it reaches its actual execution and completion state, right? So yeah, cheers, cheers to friends like those.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yeah, I'm I'm that personality type that you know needs some extra motivation, you know, like in motivation to finish things, you know, not to start things. I'm always interested in things and like starting things, but anyone who knows me and knows my my personality type, which is the baboon personality type. I was gonna ask that. He tends to start a lot of things and get interested in a lot of things very quickly and get very enthusiastic about stuff, but whether we finish it or not, and whether we complete the task, you know, that's not always the case.

The Book And Animal Types

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Oh, that's interesting to know. And so, yeah, I was really when you said you put up the animal names just to make it more fun and relatable. I was like, hmm, maybe I should ask Eric first, and then at the risk of sounding like someone that I'm not, maybe I could ask you, could you type my personality? But later in, but sure, not right now. Great. So I was reading up about your book, and I know the name of the book for all our listening audiences, The Power of Personality. It is the culmination of decades of research and just the application of what you've really learned. And you have personality type over 50,000 people during your career, which by no means means is a small number. It's not a small sample size, right? And you said the main takeaway, the key one, was that our relationship to others will only be as healthy as our relationship to our own selves. Oh god, that was such a profound thing for me to read today. So talk to us about that takeaway and how did your journey of researching and interviewing and just personality tapping so many people came about? How was it like?

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah, well, you know, I think we meet so many people. It sounds a lot 50,000 people, but when you think about it, like every individual on this planet, I don't know, I mean, unless you're a hermit, I mean you've met at least thousands of people, tens of thousands of people in your lives, right? And I think it's more or less trying to teach people how to use that experience and tap into our own intuition to actually make it useful, right? And I think in terms of like whether what our personality tick type and knowing ourselves better will improve like our relationship with other people, I think that's just you know a given, right? I think sometimes, as especially when we're younger, we're told we should be certain ways, you know, like we get this influence from either our parents, our friends. Um, nowadays it's social media. You know, back when I was young, it was just what you watched on TV and commercials. And I think at the end of the day, like that's pretty harmful. Um, I think it's super important to understand what you truly are so that you're not letting the external stuff influence that. And I think once we understand that better, then we can start understanding other people better. Like it's best to understand each other on the pr at the prism or using the prism of already knowing yourself, right? Because you don't want to lose yourself. You don't want to like think, oh, I'm weird because the 10 people in my family are not like me at all, so there must be something wrong with me. No, like you are what you are, be that, and then as long as you can appreciate that and respect who you are, then it helps you to respect other people's differences, right? And go like, okay, yeah, my father is not exactly like me. In fact, he's totally different than me, but you know, I can appreciate that because I myself appreciate my own differences. I mean, I think that is a healthy way to look at it versus like, especially now with social media, everyone's like looking at it and going, oh my god, I need to be like this influencer and have like this car and and this clothes and you know, go to these different restaurants and stuff. And I think at the end of the day, we just need to be happy with what makes us happy. And in order to do that, we have to start looking for what actually makes us happy. And I think that's a process in and of itself.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Absolutely. I 100% um follow your sentiments, and it can be a very vicious circle or cycle to be trapped in, right? So I know for for myself, I can speak for it, for a very long time of my life. I'm always feeling like maybe this is right from school. I was like a scholar, and I take a lot of stuff like that, but not saying it with any sense of ego here. But even when I was academically good, like I was difficult and I was the head girl and all of that, for a very long time I felt like I'm not enough, right? Like this in our feeling, that this self-limiting belief never really fully went away. And there are better students, better people, better speakers, prettier, smarter. And it's only recently, from last few years, that I've learned to embrace my uniqueness and what makes me truly who I am. So, speaking of which, just a question. Was there ever a time in your life, I'm sure there would be some, that you denied your own writing? Like you tried to be someone else, or you know, you just struggled hard to fit in or to belong. What was that time like?

Know Yourself To Know Others

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Oh yeah, I mean, especially for my personality type, that is like all the time. You know, I always like to say, you know, I'm a I'm, you know, you mentioned the packs earlier. I'm a shaman personality pack. And for us, you know, that we don't have a midlife crisis. I always say that our whole life is midlife crisis, you know, right? Like we're not, we're always trying to we're always questioning what we're doing and whether it, you know, it's the right thing to do. I think that's okay to question what you're doing because if you start questioning what you're doing, that also makes you want to learn more and try to delve more into whether it's truthful or not. I think the problem becomes when you question what you're doing because it's not the same as the people around you. I think that is troublesome. And you know, obviously I had that a lot, especially in junior high. So not only was I shaman personality type, but uh in junior high, everybody's kind of like that. And so yeah, I remember those days of wearing baggy pants that are like, which are apparently in again, which is kind of cool, even though I wish I'd saved some of the stuff that I wore when I was like 14, because it looked really ugly. But you know, I wear like jeans, like my size 40 jeans, you know, and sag them down and wear clothes way too big for me because that was what was in. And uh, you know, my dad used to always say, like, God, like, do you think you look good? That looks terrible. And I'm like, You don't under you know, you don't understand. This is what's cool, you know. And I think that's what you know, that's what people experience. And I think that's the great thing about per learning about personality typing and learning what you truly are, is that you know, you can find your anchor first. Because I think once you find your anchor, I'm not saying that people shouldn't try the things that other people do. And like, you know, like even if you're not the most ex responsible, or I wouldn't say the most responsible, but the most structured of people, it doesn't mean that you can't practice a little structure now and then in your life, but just to know that it's important to have your anchor first and know, hey, look, this is not my natural MO. I'm there's nothing wrong with me. It's okay for me spontaneous and flexible and not necessarily structured. That's cool. But there will be moments in my life where I might need a little structure and I will borrow from some of my friends that actually are structured, and I think that's a healthy way to go about it.

SPEAKER_01 16:13

Yeah, really. And it's it's so easy to, you know, just keep thinking to yourself about the rooting about everything. And when you said you have that personality trait, it's again a point of commonality because even for me, I question everything so much, like much often much to the dislike of my partner. I'm like, okay, what am I doing in this line? Uh and sometimes uh Eric, in all honesty, with this podcast, like I I think I do a decent job and I really enjoy doing it, and you know my passion for being a good speaker, but you know, there are moments in the day, multiple times in the day, and and very many times in a week, when I'm like, okay, but what am I actually getting out of this? What is the outcome that I'm that I'm chasing, or what am I going to be, you know, once this is done. So all of that kind of takes you away from who you are, and it's very important to remind ourselves, okay, what brings me joy? What is actually meaningful to me? What is meaningful to me may not be meaningful to you at all, right? And when you mentioned about the fashion, right? Like the pretty size baggy jeans, I was like, I was taken back to my early years wherever where the I don't know if you know if you recall the 90s fashion low-waist jeans. So, like those ones, and then my mom and some of my friends would say, bro, we get those jeans up. So I know how it feels like, especially when you're trying to find yourself, find your own worlds. And I have to say that I have sounded like a lot of different people until I felt confident and comfortable to sound like my own self, to sound like the Pali and to back the sound of my own laughter. For a very long time, I look I felt like I'm a different person when I sound on the mic, and then otherwise. I didn't grab the sound that I had on the other side of the mic, and and I wanted to change it. And until one day something dawned on me and I'm like, no, I'm good at what I do, so I better be, you know, embracing my uniqueness and just go with that. So, you know, it can be a journey for a lot of lot of people, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Yeah, you know, at the end of the day, what my father told me when I was young, which apparently I didn't listen to, but I'm thankful that he told me because eventually it clicked was, you know, especially at the time when he called me a poser with those jeans and like all the baggy clothes. And and he was just like, you know what? At the end of the day, no one gives a shit. So you just gotta do be yourself and do what you want. You know, as long as you aren't hurting anyone, just be yourself because you might think that people care and that you're so conscious of what other people think about you, but at the end of the day, they're never gonna care about you more than they care about themselves. So if they're caring about themselves, why should you care about what they're thinking? Just care about yourself as well. And not in a selfish way, but more just knowing that we are the main character of our story and no one else is the main character of our story. And also, it's also humbling because we are not the main character and anyone else's.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Right. You know, we might be a side character, you might be a cameo, you know, like it's we we don't know. So you gotta take care of yourself and make sure that you're writing your own story and make sure that your story is true to your voice. Because if it isn't, you're basically living someone, you're basically starring or co-starring, and you've basically given your story up to someone else. That's the worst thing that could happen because we only get it, you only get one shot.

Fitting In, Anchors, And Growth

SPEAKER_01 19:17

So you live only once, really, and that's the best advice from from that. I I have to say that. And given this context, I always ask myself and check in before I say a yes to anything, and I make sure that while I'm saying a yes to anything, any situation, any commitment, you know, or just whatever, I'm not really truly saying a no to myself. And if that happens, I start shining away from it. So you have to live like you are the main character of your story because you really are and you just get one shot at it. Like, wouldn't it be such I don't even use the word failure, but wouldn't it be sad and just you know downright upsetting to live someone else's ideal life and not really Yeah, I think Thoreau used to call that men living lives of quiet desperation, right?

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Where you're kind of just not really satisfied or happy with whatever you're doing because it's not true to yourself. And people do that for the rest of their lives until they die, you know, and I think that's so unfortunate. And I mean, obviously there are certain situations that people have where they have to make a lot of sacrifices, maybe for their children or whatever, be based on the economics of the situation. But you know, I you know, I always tell my students, I mean, most of my students, well not most of them, all of them are at least here in America, you know, we should be very happy and very lucky. I always tell them, look, you're really lucky that you get to you're in a position that you kind of get to choose, really choose and really search for what you want in life. And I feel like it's almost like an insult to people who don't necessarily get that chance.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

You know, to take it. You gotta take it.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah, and we are coming from a place of privilege to even sit and talk about it and just to have this awareness and possibility, endless possibility and freedom of choices, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Right, and I think we gotta take advantage of it because you know, I mean if if someone who in a hard luck situation was in our situation, they'd be definitely taking advantage of it.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yeah, totally. Speaking of that, what which path up do you think people normally assume you are? Whereas, you know, in reality you are not that.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Oh, that's a great question. You know, because sometimes people can appear to like in different packs just because, you know, a lot of times when we when people think about personality, they really are only focusing on superficial things, you know, like even like something like extroversion and introversion, which I mean there are tons of books on that, and I I don't even believe in it totally because I do think that whether you appear extroverted or introverted or whatever, outgoing or reserved, really depends on the context. So my personality typing methodology is based on the internal context of like what people truly want. Because I feel like if you're like in a situation that you really love, like let's say you are all about like self-identity, then yeah, you are probably gonna be a lot more outgoing if you were giving a TED talk on that subject. Would you be the type of outgoing to be doing body shots in cabo? Probably not. That's a different kind of character, yeah, different personality. So I think in general, like me outwardly, sometimes since I'm kind of jokey and I don't seem to take things super seriously and I'm pretty easygoing, um, a lot of times people will think of me as a hunter. I'm not a hunter, I'm a shaman, but you know, a lot of hunters can appear very like jokey. The funny thing is my father was also probably appeared like a hunter, and he himself was not a hunter as well. Now he wasn't a shaman, but he was a sniff. But so, like, that's what I'm saying, like just that superficial notion of like what people seem like, whether they talk a lot or don't, I think is so detrimental to truly understanding what people what really makes someone tick.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah, also that's uh very, very good to know, and also is also very freeing, right? Like we have to be a certain type in many different contexts and situations, and and we must learn to adapt. And we do. For example, as you said, sometimes because you are lighthearted and you crack funny jokes, people and I have been on the other side too, like validating all the credentials, not taking someone too seriously because you know they appear to be more fun having. Whereas someone like me, I would like I I I could find um I'm assuming like I'm a person like a pretty serious person to your head, but I I do have my open little throats and rumor to you know, just make it lighthearted and fun. And then if someone is taking me less seriously, then I would be really offended. Like I would, you know, take great offense and give offense at it. So all of this can be deceiving and the is an importance of context in in in a lot of this, and people definitely make assumptions. I know I do quick to judge people and make assumptions where we want nothing, literally nothing about the story. Someone can be having a terrible and then you still can and being classed to a similar one when you turn around and give them a look. Be like, are you getting this uh traffic sign and anything of like that? So it's very, very important to be kind and considerate and looks can be deceiving, and what you see can can can be fine.

Main Character Energy And Agency

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Yeah, I always recommend for people to I mean it is important to look at what people do, because that often tells you a lot about them, but more importantly, ask them or at least try to figure out or ascertain why do they do it, right? Because everybody can write. Like there are tons of different authors, that's just as an example, but like I always say, like, the reason why Jane Austen wrote was a lot different than the reason why Mark Twain wrote, which is a lot different than the way Nietzsche wrote, and different than the reason why Hemingway wrote. And all those people are very different personalities, but they're all doing the same thing as writing. So we don't want to go, oh, they're a writer. Oh, that's what makes them who they are. I'm like, yeah, that's what they do. But what makes them who they are is the reason why they do it. And that's if you truly want to understand someone, figure out why they're doing things versus just looking at what they do.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Yeah, so the why is the key behind everything, and then the rest of the answer really follows. So out of curiosity, Eric, what what kind of questions followed you uh for years before you actually found out uh I'd say build this framework and then publicize it? What were the questions?

SPEAKER_00 25:06

What were the questions?

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Yeah, like like what was going in your mind? Like, you know, I'm sure there would be multiple ideas floating around in your mind. And this is your research and experiments and meeting different peoples and different personality types. What were the questions that followed you before you know you actually formalized this framework?

SPEAKER_00 25:24

I mean, the number one question was trying to figure out what truly makes someone like dictates who they are, I guess. And how to make that broad enough to where it didn't feel like people were being put into very rigid boxes, but still putting people into boxes, right? And I think a lot of times people don't like personality theory because they're like, I can do everything. You're saying I can't do this, or you're saying I can't be this person. I'm like, no, I'm not saying you can't do that. I'm just saying that certain things are going to come natural and more natural to you. And generally, when I meet the person who totally doesn't believe in categorization and believes that everyone can be everything, what I generally find out is that person just believes that everyone can be everyone so that they can other people can become more like them. Right? It's kind of like if you meet like a person who views themselves as responsible because they're so structured, you know, like when you go to school, right? That's the thing that's taught to us. Like a lot of teachers are gatherers, and gathers are very structured, responsible individuals. And nothing wrong with being responsible, that's great. But we don't all have to be structured, and yet they feel like the only way that you can kind of get things done and be successful is through structure. And I think that can become a problem because when you think of the only, if you ever say, oh, this is the only way you can do something, then that pretty much pushes out everybody else who does it a very different way. And obviously, if you just look at all the successful people in the world with all their different personalities, I think it just reality tells us that we can different people can achieve success doing their own thing and doing it their own way. And I think those are the questions I ask myself is like, why am I being told to do stuff that does not necessarily seem natural to me? And of course, being a shaman, I wondered, man, is there something wrong with me? And then as I got more confidence, right, I realized, no, like there's nothing wrong with me because you know, like, like in school, like I was not, I was not a very good student, but I also was not a bad student since like I did well, but I definitely got in trouble quite a bit, and I didn't like do it the way teachers told me to do it. And I was like, oh, well, you know, I don't necessarily know that is a bad thing. Is going to the the principal's office and the dean's office totally terrible if you know you believe in yourself, you know? So um yeah, like those are the questions I was getting like just trying to like justify my own behavior myself at first, you know, and then started branching out and try to think, oh okay, like this is what makes this person strong, regardless of what they've been told, and then you know, going to each individual type and figuring that out for myself.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Yeah, uh that's a very honest and relatable example. And when you were saying all of that, I like I was just thinking like myself, and like this, I feel like this is bringing a lot of like this conversation with you is bringing in a lot of awareness about my own patterns and you know my own personality type. So I when you said you know, essentially it meant like there's no one right way of doing it, and like say someone who's more sincere, serious, also organized, structured, love routine, I am that person and I worked for the majority of my life, especially in in the school and in college years, and and for like initial years of working, starting a career, doing a tech job, I was like, this person is only cracking joke, maybe they're not serious about work. So I was that person, and at the risk of you know, sounding negative and oversimplifying, which I don't intend to on my own podcast, but I have been Eric, and and there's no shame in admitting, but I really have known that there's no right way to do it, and it's not like my way or highway kind of a situation. Different people keep living about differently and they have different ways of doing things. That may not 100% align with your way of doing it, but that does that they're doing it wrong and you're right.

Beyond Extrovert Introvert Labels

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Yeah, and then well, I was gonna say, in fairness, in fairness to you, you know, that's what we're taught in school is that structural approach. So it's almost natural for if someone has a structured approach that they're like, okay, like you're just gonna get that, you know, reinforced that that is the right way to do it. So it would make sense that you know, like it's not like that's the thing that's been told to us, like, you know, as we grow up. Like, what's the first thing we learn when you go to class? You learn the rules. What are the rules? You know, and that's not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

And so for me, also I had to do a lot of uh how do I say like unlearning and relearning of songs because I was so conditioned to be like that ever since I was growing up. And when we're growing up, we're in school, we're very impressionable, right? Like if those are our formative years, and things kind of go handwired in your own brain. And when you get out in the real world, you realize, okay, I'm good, but I see people who are just as good as me, or maybe even better. And more my way of highway situations is I'm gonna walk every time in life. So, so I'm glad that you you shared that um part, and it's it's honest and relatable for our listening audience. So, um, Eric, I know personality typing, and I'm learning more and more as we dive deeper into this conversation. Like it can help people make better life choices, right? Relationship choices, career, passion, creative pursuit, whatever. It can bring in a lot of awareness about who we are and what we're gonna do. And you know what does this mean joy? Um, and just happiness. So could you please uh share some practical insights into you know how can people and the day-to-day learn more about their personality and then use it as an anchor to make better, hopefully more meaningful decisions. I know that's a motive question, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Well, no, no, it's a perfect setup for me to make a shameless plug that if you want to learn really a lot about what your personality type you are, you should buy the power of personality. But yeah, buy my book. It's available anywhere you buy books. Amazon if you want to give Jeff Bezos your money. But uh no, I mean all joking aside, like obviously in the book there's a kind of methodology for people to learn about themselves. And I kind of go through the specific methodology. In terms of day-to-day actions, I think the number one thing, especially if you're trying to figure out about other people, is just ask questions to yourself. You don't have to ask directly, but think why is this person doing the things that they're doing? You know, and I you of course to understand that, like, you have to understand like that each pack has different, a different core value. And I think that's probably the most important thing. So if you think of like gatherers valuing safety and security, hunters value visceral excitement, shaman's value self-knowledge, and Smith's value information. And if you kind of go just from that simple, you view it through that simple prism, it might help quite a bit because you're gonna start realizing, oh, you know, this person, the reason why they're doing something different than me is because they have a totally different mentality. They're not even looking for this, they're looking for this. And so it makes total sense that they would do it this way. And you have to just accept that. And also maybe use that to your advantage, right? Knowing that this is what this person wants. I always say, like, you know, like let's say you have your kid, right? And the kid, you know, a lot of gather parents, let's say, well, if their kid is doing something they don't want to do, like let's say the kid's trying to grab cookies from the cookie jar, you know, a gather parent will say, Hey, you know what? If you take that cookie, I'm gonna slap your hand. A hunter child will go, will think, immediately they'll think, hmm, is this cookie worth the slap? Now, the funny thing is, gatherers don't even understand that. They'll be like, wait, what are you talking about? You're not supposed to be calculated. This is not some shrewd decision that I'm asking you to make. I'm telling you that I'm gonna slap your hand. That's my way of saying, respect me as your parent. Do not do that. I'm telling you, I do not want you to do that. But hunters don't think that way. They think in visceral excitement, they think in terms of, is this worth this? And if the cookie is worth the slap, then they will grab that cookie and eat, eat it, enjoy it, and then take the slap. And you, I don't want parents to think that's there's anything wrong with it. That's actually a totally fine approach. It might not be that that gather parents' approach, but it's the hunter child's approach. And you want them to be able to make those kind of shrewd calculating decisions in the moment because that is a skill set of theirs. And as they get older, that's what they're gonna do in life, right? They're gonna have to make, you know, those quick decisions based on what's worth it to them in the moment, right? And I think that's just an example or one of those examples of when like a little basic knowledge about personality types can help quite a bit, you know, within parenting, obviously relationships, and obviously at work as well.

Why Over What: Motives Matter

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Yeah, I was just gonna say that that for people as individuals or teams and really into organizations also. And I'm sure a lot of people can learn from this framework because I think um earlier structure had more like command and control as a framework where you know world had the authority to boss people around, right? But you let people be, you enable them, you empower them to make choices in accordance to what their clear really suggests. Of course, like there are certain exceptions to this rule. If you're a surgeon, you can't do things your own way because you know it appeals to you. Some things make an exception to this rule, but really a lot of awareness and understanding about who people really are and why they do what to do can solve a lot of problems. Like, and I'm I know it's like oversimplified at this point, but this brings a lot of clarity and removes a lot of chaos and confusion, don't you think? Especially if you're Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Yeah, and I love that you brought up surgeons, you know, because I think when we talk about surgeons, I mean they're obviously doctors, and I think when people think of doctors, they think of people who are extremely intelligent and educated, and you know, and you have to get go through a lot of education to get there. And uh it's funny because a lot of doctors are gatherers, because gatherers have that work ethic, they're responsible, they're structured, they do what they're told, and you kind of have to get that way. Uh and you also, you know, as a doctor, you do have to be conscious of that. But the funny thing is the best surgeons or the the type that makes the best surgeon is a shark, a shark personality type, and they are hunters. And so hunters are not always the best students because hunters learn by doing, and they don't love sitting reading books and like they're like, oh God, what I want to read about the Civil War for. Like, let me just go to a Civil War enactment and play. Can I can I pretend to be like a union soldier? That then I'll learn, right? And you know, you can imagine surgeons are great at that, right? Because surgeons literally are basically using their hands. That is their skill set. So it's kind of funny that our impressions of what we think is the right behavior don't always necessarily fit because I think a lot of teachers, if they saw a shark student, let's say like in fifth grade, sixth grade, I think a lot of teachers would be really frustrated. They'd be like, oh my gosh, like this kid is not even paying attention. All they're doing is playing with their pencils. They just want to go out to PE and or to nutrition and play sports, you know, and run around. That's all they want to do. And they might think, oh, this person will never, they won't take them seriously as, let's say, a student. And I'm like, that is the perfect student to be a surgeon. Because let's face it, what do surgeons do when they're not working? They play. I think the most common hobby for a surgeon is like golf and fishing or things of that nature. And it's because they're using tools. It's the same thing, it's basically surgery, just like in a fun way. And I think personality really does help people realize like, oh, like it's not just this one framework of there are competent people and they're incompetent people. No, like there's a huge framework of different skill sets that we use. And I think we need to appreciate all those things because if you don't, at an early age, then you're not going to help people get better at that. Because it's not like a shark is going to be instinctively or they're instinctively grab they'll instinctively gravitate towards using tools and taking chances, but they're not necessarily gonna be good at it, and they need the opportunity to practice and learn, just like every other personality type.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

And it's very interesting that you, you know, you still like you took that point about surgeon because um I had like a an interaction with one of the surgeons and I've met him a couple of times, and like I went into the meeting really thinking about okay, he'll be like an uptight evil guy. But the surgeon was chill, fun-loving, and and uh sure great incredible um uh surgeon here in Victoria who can handle extremely complex cases. And you know, he's an awesome guy and is so fun-loving and just very easy to talk to. Like, he's so humble and simple and nice that you wouldn't feel like you're talking to a surgeon. And just wouldn't take him seriously. Like he would start reading up when the patient walks in and be like, Okay, we need to do this and that, and I'll see you then. But he's an incredibly gifted surgeon. But for me, it was like a shock. I'm like, oh, but do I even trust him?

Building The Framework’s Big Questions

SPEAKER_00 37:31

There's well, there's a difference between taking yourself yourself seriously and taking your work seriously, right? And you know, like I think a lot, and you know, a lot of hunters live by that motto of not taking themselves seriously, but taking their work seriously, which is why a lot of hunters are great athletes as well, right? You don't, you know, athletes obviously are playing for a job and they're really fun and easygoing for the most time, but you get them in the middle of that game and they are not yeah, no prisoners, right? Because and then you kind of have to have that. And people like that's why I mean I'm just using this dichotomy of gathers and hunters because it's the most common. Together, they make about 85% of the population. And I do think gathers tend to like like you know, not necessarily respect that hunter trait, but at the same time, these hunters are putting themselves out there, they have to put themselves in positions where there's ideal risk. Like if you're a surgeon, the stakes are extremely high. If you're an athlete, they might be even higher per se, because you're in front of like, you know, thousands of people, and then also people are watching it on TV, and every move that you make is going to be criticized, you know, at a very difficult degree of difficulty, you know. So at the end of the day, everyone has their own different strengths and them. You just need to admire and appreciate them.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Yeah, wow, and as you were saying that, like 85% of the population has that. I was like, I just was thinking about my partner, like he wouldn't, you know, and you said in the just before that it's there is a difference between taking yourself seriously and taking your work seriously, and he definitely is validating those credentials. Like, I haven't seen him take his work lightly or his game lightly. He loves to play tennis, and and like every time if it's like anything that goes wrong just before he's about to leave, he's like, Oh my god, the the god is upset that you know he's not getting a chance to go out and play. Say if it's raining or something and if it if it was an outdoor play. But he like he himself is very light and fun-loving and you know, very easygoing. So wouldn't give an impression as someone who's extremely sincere and serious, but he loves and is very, very professional in whatever he does. So now I know why he's like that because I'm like, hmm, that's like a strange contradiction, right? Like it's a dichotomy of songs. So I'm glad that you talked about it.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Yeah, no, it is, and you know, once again, like hunters and gathers make about 85% of the population, but then that leaves like the Smiths and Shamans who only make up about 15% total. So they sometimes get short shrift because you know, you a hunter and especially a gather might live their whole life and maybe not have encountered any shamans, or at least didn't think that they countered them because shamans also assimilate or try to assimilate to their detriment. Um, so it is kind of funny when I meet people and they're like, what the heck? Like, why other people have these people are just weird? And I'm like, no, they're just different and they've been around you. You just haven't realized and they're known. You know, I remember when I was at my education company, and there was a moment where I had four tutors in a group session because we would have group sessions to talk about their students, right? And that's where I would ask them what personality type they think their student might be, and obviously use their own personality type to kind of like understand each like their own bias as an educator. And in one of the sessions, out of the four teachers, three of them were Smiths, which are only which only make up like 8% of the population in general. And then there was the one gatherer. So the look on her face when they started talking was as if she had like her was part of a conversation that she had never been part of before in her life. She had this very this look like, what am I doing here and why are these people talking in this way? And it was just kind of funny to me because as a gatherer, she's just probably not used to it because they make up so much of the population. So it was a good learning experience for her to see, like, yeah, these are different people and maybe borrow a little bit about what they're talking about and how like the way they do it, especially if you have Smith's students, you know, because you're gonna have to relate to them and not try to make them be exactly like you.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Yeah, and and that can be a top body, right? Like it cannot be done in a cozy, comfy way. It needs some degree of change and a certain degree of acceptance from your own self before you actually dive into doing that. Talking about a little bit of change here, do you think personality changes over time? Or you know, just how we express it?

SPEAKER_00 41:34

Yeah, like probably the way we express it, the way we understand it, will change. Like, I don't think personality types actually change. And people are like, what you say, you're saying I can't change? I'm totally different than what I was when I was younger. I'm like, yeah, but maybe this person is just more confident than they are. So thus they thought they were this way when they were younger, but as they started getting more confident in themselves, they realized, oh no, actually, I am actually really this type, not the type before. I think there's a certain danger in thinking that personality types can change, because as I mentioned before, then that just is like giving people like permission to try to change people in a certain way. Like, not to get all controversial, but it's almost like, you know, like like uh gay conversion, you know, like where people are like, oh yeah, you can change. Let me just electro shock you and shock. Yeah, I guess so. In that way, yeah, you could shock someone's brain and that'll change them and actually make permanent changes. But to me, that's like, yeah, but that's not like that's damaging. You're basically damaged.

unknown 42:29

Yeah.

Many Paths To Success

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Right. So that's that's my feeling. It's like it just opens that up for people to go, okay, I'm gonna force my kid to be what I want than to be versus just accepting who they are and actually making them a the best version possible version of that. So I believe that we don't, I always say we don't change, we grow. And we can grow into better versions of ourselves or worse versions of ourselves. And that's why it's so important to respect ourselves and truly understand what we want and who we are, so that we can grow into the best version. Because if not, the alternative is you know self- self-explanatory.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Yeah, and I'm glad that you mentioned it again, because it can be very, very misleading or think about anything like that. You really don't want to change it. Like they belong to their mind Have you ever seen them or someone who just transformed one to be embraced in a violence?

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Yeah, that's and that's kind of why I do the things I do. It's just such a great feeling, or at least a great uh experience to have when you see someone it kind of clicks for someone. And you know, I have different clients of different many different ages, you know. Like I'll have like adult clients in their 40s who are kind of like reassessing their life essentially and saying, God, maybe I was doing the wrong thing about this like for the last 30 years. But a lot of my clients are young, and it's usually, I'll be honest, it's usually when I have a shaman student, and like usually around 10 or 11, because I have most of my clients start around 10 or 11 because obviously that's when kids start feeling different and weird, and most importantly, that's when the parents start realizing that their kid isn't listening to them anymore, and their kid will not listen to them anymore, and they're just like, what the heck is going on? My kid is no longer right, they're no longer this cute little thing that used to do what I wanted to do, or at least I could convince to do if I gave them a cookie, you know? Like they are like, yeah, they're arguing with me, yelling at me, and I forget it. I cannot handle this here. You take care of them. And so that's exactly my wheelhouse is like middle school and above. And you when you get shaman students, it's so refreshing for them because they just everything around them is different, telling them different values, especially if their parents are not shamans or smiths. If they have very strict gather parents or even hunter parents, hunter parents will just let you do what you want to do. But if you have very strict gather parents and you have a shaman student, like they might the shaman student might feel really weird and feel really very different and be quite self-loathing. So I think it's been great meet when I teach them this, because it's almost like they're like, oh, like so. I'm not an alien, you know, like it's okay for me to be this way, but I can, I still have to work because I still have to work to be the best version of this. But you know, that's the cool thing about personality too, is like especially like in like literally in work, where if you get it can engage with someone on a level of what they truly love, then it doesn't become work anymore. Right? So if you work with students and tell them, oh yeah, it's okay to be you, you just have to work to be a better version of that, they'll be totally fine with that because they they will like that. Like if you tell someone who's not particularly structured that in order to be a better person, you need way more structured, that is not gonna be fun. You they might as well you might as well send them to the dentist, you know? So that like yeah, so that was a my long way of saying, yeah, like I usually when I deal with shaman students or work with shaman students, I get that uh that experience quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01 46:01

Yeah, and and that's really a part of the growth and transformation, and I'm sure the emotional material that you also experience when you're coaching people with all those thoughts and realities, and that way we let our personality become a powerful tool, then you're not reading it as an excuse. That's okay, I am so and so, and I'm not gonna change, and that's the end of the story, right? So it is a student.

Practical Typing For Daily Life

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Oh, sorry, I was gonna say I was just really quickly had a student, this just popped in my head. This popped in my head, I was like, oh, it just is really quick. But like a student of mine recently, well not recently, like maybe a year ago, so that's not very recent, but she told me, like, oh, you know what? I don't think I want to grow up. And I was like, Yeah, and I was like, you know what's so funny? Like, I know exactly how you feel, and I know exactly what you mean by not wanting to grow up. Because she was a shaman student, and you know, clearly, like, you know, she had grandparents who were telling them, be a doctor, be a doctor. And you know, her parents like saying, You gotta do this, do this, do this. And I was just like, you know, you don't, you you will grow up, you will grow, but maybe you won't have to grow up in the way that you think you have to, or that people are telling you that you have to. You know, and I thought that was and she really liked hearing that, where she was like, Oh, okay, like, you know, I can be who I am, you know. That that was really satisfying for her.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

Wow, right. And yeah, thanks for sharing that with us, Eric. And I know how it can feel. And just to give you something really funny before we wrap this up, I now I keep joking around with my partner and some of my friends that I like why did we grow up, right? I love being a kid. Uh like we would have just some lessons to complete and just go to school and come back to um a meal that bum made, like hot, cozy doodle or something like that. And then just have a nap, study a little bit more, watch TV, go out with dad to play, and that's about it. And look at my life now, like there's so much work to do. You know, I have my own kids, so like there's a lot of running around and just like work as a workbook, and you know, all these social commitments. So there's so much, and I keep keep telling myself, I wish I could go back in time and become a little child again. So, yeah, it needs a lot of lot of work to really understand and think about who we are, and even me, I have been on this soul searching journey to find answers to a lot of these difficult questions like who I am and what am I doing here, what's my purpose, what's my personality type, and then I can use it to become my superpower so that I can thrive and you know excel in life and just find meaning and joy. As as much as success and you know, excellent outcomes, monetary compensation, all of that matters to me. What also matters to me is the fulfillment on the small little joys of life, life, right? Like finding a joy in your force of coffee in the morning, or just finding joy in a comforting meal that reminds you of your mum or you know, any time when you were a kid. So, all of that is really, really important, and I feel like a lot of people, you know, should be on the journey to find who they truly are. Now, what better way, Eric, to wrap this entire conversation up than by asking you to please type me as a host? And what are the some aspects of my personality type? And you can be honest, I wouldn't mind.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Yeah, well that you know, exactly what you just said there. I mean, that summed it up quite a bit, actually. Everything you said there, you know, uh as I mentioned before, you're you're definitely a shaman. You know, I mean, even just what you said there, obviously, shamans their um core value is self-knowledge, right? So everything you were saying that like what you want and what your goals are are all key towards that, right? Self-knowledge, discovering yourself, what do you really enjoy? Even the idea of like, yeah, monetary compensation is great to a certain extent, but it's not your number one value. I always like to say, you know, like at the end of a game of chess, the king and the pond go back in the same box.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

Yeah, right.

Surgeons, Sharks, And Learning Styles

SPEAKER_00 49:45

So it's really more about enjoying and getting the most out of the game itself, right? And each person and each personality type gets a different enjoyment. And so thus we gotta tap into that. And I think for you, as a shaman, it's what you had said before. So there are four different shaman types. There's the dolphin, the panda, the baboon, and the humpback whale. And sorry, this is gonna get long-winded, but the dolphins and pandas are in a group where they value people, and then the humpback whales and the baboons value principle, like ethics. And both of them will value principle and ethics. You know, that's a very well, both those things are really important to shamans, but I split them up that way because that's what they value most of all. And just the things you said about being a good student, being structured, liking like, you know, being serious. Because as I had mentioned before for myself, as a baboon, we're often thought of as hunters because we're a little bit off to the side. We kind of like do our own thing. Um, and that's very different than the dolphins and the pandas. Dolphins and pandas tend to love school, they love being a good student, they love the idea of being a good student. Pandas are the best students out of all the shamans, they take themselves very seriously. They, as you had mentioned, they don't particularly like when people don't take them seriously. However, they're not like a gatherer. Gathers are all about status and people like holding them to that. But every time you'd mention, oh, well, you know, I I kind of wondered be a kid again, you know, like a gatherer would never say that. Gatherers are like in a rush to grow up. They're like, no, I want to be, you know, they're like adults when they're kids because they're so serious that they're just like, no, this is what makes me a fine upstanding citizen. Da-da-da-da. Shamans are the most likely to want to stay like either stay young or appreciate being young or being maybe be kids at heart. However, being a panda, they're gonna be like it's they're it's not gonna be as obvious on the outside. Whereas you talk like a baboon or humpback whale, they'll just seem like kids. Like that's probably that's probably why I get along with my students so well, because they probably think like I act the same way that they do. You know, like they're like, oh okay, like they just they just get yeah, well, they just get very comfortable very quickly. Um and I joke around, I'm not taking so I think you're probably a panda. You know, there's there's a lot of pandas have a lot of angst, they have the most angst out of all the shamans because they're the most like I would I want to assimilate, I want to be like gatherers because that's what I've been told I should be like. And then obviously there's that path that they have to take, which you had mentioned you took it, which is like, oh no, actually, I this is not the way to go, this is not the right thing to do. But I spent all my time kind of doing this, and now I'm a bit self-loathing, and you know, they have that conflict, and thus they they can be filled with anxiety as they're growing up because they're just trying to figure out themselves and they have that pushback from other gatherers.

SPEAKER_01 52:21

Yeah, yeah. No, thanks so much for um sharing that. And I feel like I have a mirror in front of me, just kind of saying it out in your voice. What really matches my personality type. So thanks so much for sharing that, Eric. And just one last question. So if you could ask our listeners one powerful question and and be brutally real and honest with themselves, do truly find their personality, or do you you know, just to find themselves, what would that question be?

SPEAKER_00 52:50

I'd probably ask what exactly do you want in anything that you do? So I guess I would have to have something that I'd have to have some basis. Like if they were a student, I'd say, what do you like out of school? Or if they were, you know, a plumber, what do you like out of plumbing? You know, like just to get the why out of whatever they're doing in any single action, I think that's the easiest way to figure out what someone wants out of something because they can all be very, very different examples. Like even playing sports, if I'm playing sports with people, the easiest question is why do you like doing it? Some will say, Oh, I like just hanging out with people. I like the communal aspect of it. I just want to, you know, be around people. That's what a gatherer would say. A hunter would probably say, Oh, it's fun. I love the competition. You know, I love that, you know, the adrenaline. I get or I like the exercise. You know, they would say something like that. So that's a question I'd ask. Why do you do the things you do? What what do you want out of it?

SPEAKER_01 53:41

Thank you so much. And uh, Eric, this was so rich and practical and deeply human. I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed every bit of this. Where did the entire hour go by? Right? We were just I had a lot of fun. Yeah, I really came here. And thank you again for uh bringing so much language and clarity to the silent parts of ourselves, which aren't that pronounced, like to those hidden traits, like you know, certain dichotomies that you mentioned, they were oh my god, mind-boggling. You know, that example of not being or coming across as serious and not taking your work seriously. Wow, that was really, really enriching to me to know. So tell us uh about where can people find you and take your test, read your book, all of that.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

Yeah, so the I do have an online test. I will warn people it's not always gonna be perfectly accurate. If you really want the accurate part, you'll buy the book and read the book and figure it out. Because once again, the online test is pretty cookie cutter, but I did create it and I think it's pretty good. It's on utopiaproject.com. And that's utopia y-o-topia, like you, like it is in YouTube. Yeah, so utopiaproject.com. Um, you can find my life coaching and any information you want about me at ProjectUtopia.com. And if you want you're interested in buying the book, as I mentioned before, you can buy it on Amazon. You can go to your local bookstore and order it there, your book, your big box bookstores, uh, wherever you want to buy books or wherever you buy books, you can get the power personality.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Okay, thanks. And I will put in all the links that uh Eric mentioned down below in the show notes. And I love that you said it's a Utopia project because hey, everything starts with you.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Right. No, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

Uh listening on this um I'd love to hear what you make some inside you are to listen to this podcast right now. And uh you don't need to become somebody else. You would just need to make what you are.