Just In Time to Save a Life

Ep. 4 - Beyond Baby Blues: A Real Talk on Maternal Mental Health

• Jessica Greenwalt • Episode 4

Share episode

The happiest day isn’t always the happiest season, and saying that out loud can save a life. We sit down with AFSP area director Jacqueline Sharp to trace a clear line between baby blues and postpartum depression, talk frankly about suicidal thoughts after birth, and map the small, practical choices that turn the tide. No clichés, no shaming, just lived experience, credible guidance, and the kind of details you can use today.

We explore why postpartum struggles often stay hidden behind “you should be so happy,” how bonding challenges and perfectionism fuel shame, and what partners can do to truly help. From miscarriage and the quiet grief of trying to conceive, to hormonal freefalls, thyroid shifts, and the myth of “bounce back,” we bring nuance to a spectrum of maternal mental health experiences. We also get specific about support: setting boundaries with visitors, using an “eight minutes” code to ask for help, deciding between breastfeeding and formula without guilt, and building routines that reconnect you with your body and the world.

Medication and therapy are on the table, with a reminder to consult your OB‑GYN about safe options and dosing, and to seek a second opinion when needed. We share the numbers every family should save: 988 for immediate crisis and the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline at 1-833-9-HELP4MOMS (1-833-943-5746), available 24/7 in multiple languages. If you’re navigating postpartum depression, or love someone who might be, this conversation offers clarity, comfort, and a path forward. If it resonates, subscribe, share it with your village, and leave a review to help more parents find real support.

If you are in an crisis or feel unsafe, call or text 988 or dial 911 for immediate support. There are people out there who will listen and can help.

Follow and stay connected:

Website: justintimepodcast.com
YouTube: youtube.com/@justintime.podcast
Instagram: @justintimetosavealife
Facebook: Just In Time To Save a Life

Never miss an update—follow, subscribe, and join the conversation!

SPEAKER_00:

Hi, I'm Jessica G, and this is the Justin Time podcast. If you're struggling today, I want you to know this podcast is here for you, but it's not a substitute for professional health. If you're in a crisis or feel unsafe, please call or text 988 or dial in 911 for immediate support. There are people out there who will listen and can help. On this show, I'll be sharing personal experiences, mindset ships, talking with key experts, and sharing real tools that help me go from barely surviving to thriving. This is not about quick fixes or one size fits all advice. It's raw, it's honest, it's what worked for me and what I believe can help others too. Let's walk together from darkness to hope. Hello, hello, everybody. Thank you for tuning back in. This is Justin Time Podcast, and we are excited that Jacqueline Sharp has joined the show once again. She's the area director for AFSP, and we are so happy to have you here, Jacqueline.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you. I'm happy to be here again.

SPEAKER_00:

Awesome. Today we're going to be talking about postpartum depression and suicide, um, signs to look for, and really, um, I believe Jacqueline is going to share a little bit about her lived experience and gonna talk about awareness, triggers, early recognition, and um just dive right in.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I'm really grateful to be here. This is um my passion project. Uh, you know, when I started with AFSP four years ago, um, I just was swimming. And after the first year, I was able to go, okay, now I can start talking about my story and sharing my lived experience around. Yeah. And the more I did, what I noticed was we have more and more women that would come up to me afterwards and say, same.

SPEAKER_02:

Mm-hmm, same.

SPEAKER_01:

I've just never talked about it out loud. And so um, I'm grateful that you've asked me to come and have this conversation because I think this is a a very silent epidemic that's happening in the United States.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, and thankfully I'm seeing more and more people are willing to talk about it and platforms want people to come on to talk. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00:

No, uh, I just remember when I first met you, um, I knew nothing really about postpartum. It's just something you kind of hear about, but like you said, women don't talk about it. And I remember you kind of sharing, we were talking about like, you know, my whole thing was like neuroplasticity and using the power of neuroplasticity fight suicide. And you're like, I want AFSB to build a program around postpartum. And um, so I got really excited about that because I mean, mental health is complex and every tiny little avenue or um opening that you know we can talk about to create change and bring awareness and break the stigma and just start that conversation is just one step towards uh healing and one step towards um better success. Yeah. I agree with our mental health. So can you start off uh by explaining what postpartum depression is and how it differs from the baby blues that many women experience?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. And I I think it's important to say too up front, um you're gonna get dual sides in this episode of uh Jacqueline who has lived experience in postpartum, and and I'm gonna share my experience. And that's mostly where my expertise comes from in this. Um for the last four years, I've been advocating for AFSP to put a more focused effort into maternal mental health and postpartum. Um, and and we've seen some movement for sure. Um, we still don't have necessarily a main presentation uh I have pieces. So that's good. There's definitely been four movement, but a lot of the statistics, the information I'm gonna be sharing is from the Mayo Clinic, um, maternal mental health, um, national maternal mental health uh website and their lifeline. That's what we'll talk about today. So that needs to be said. So you're gonna have kind of the dual things, but awesome. According to the Mayo Clinic, here are the differences. So baby blues is something that you hear often. And um, to be frank, um, when I was in the throes of postpartum and in the throes of um really struggling with suicide, that's what was said to me. It's just baby blues. Right. And baby blues, here's the differences. So baby blues are defined as it's only a few days to a week after you've had a baby. So it's a very short time frame. And the symptoms include mood swings, anxiety, sadness, irritability, feeling overwhelmed, crying, reduced concentration, you can have appetite problems, and you can have trouble sleeping. And I when I wrote this up, I kind of giggled because trouble sleeping is just part of postpartum. You have a brand new baby that doesn't know, you know, night and day regulation. They don't know sleep and they have to get up every two hours to eat. So trouble sleeping just kind of comes with that. But um, so remember that baby blues are it's a short time span. And then what Mayo Clinic says about postpartum is it's more intense, it lasts longer, it interferes with your baby to your ability to care for yourself and your baby. Okay. So those are, I think, the big things that need to be, and it can last for up to a year after giving birth. So that's important. Um, the symptoms that they list are depressed mood or severe mood swings, crying too much. Um, I often hear when I talk to women, they're like, I I couldn't stop crying. I was crying over everything. Right. And that's a really important sign to pay attention to. Um, bonding with baby issues. So this is fascinating. Um, when I started sharing about um my postpartum struggles, um, I was in a training and I had someone share with me that they had found out through their grandmother that their own mother had struggled. And for the first like two months after they were born, she could not hold her baby. She was in bed and could not hold her baby for two months because she had these bonding issues and was just in the throes of postpartum depression. Now, at the time, they didn't know what that was.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Well, and I I just want to jump in here really quick because that brings something to mind. Hearing that would, I feel like, bring on so much judgment from the outside world. And I think that that's probably one of the reasons why people don't talk about it. Correct. Because they're like, what's wrong with you? You have a new baby, what you know what I mean, instead of treating it as a mental illness at the time.

SPEAKER_01:

Correct. That's exactly right. And I think that's why I think that's why people why it's as I called it a silent epidemic. Right. Is because, you know, suicide's stigmatized enough. And then when you add maternal mental health and suicide around matern maternity and having a baby postpartum, there's like a whole nother layer of stigma. Right. Because people are like, Well, you just you should be so happy. This should be the happiest moment of your whole life. And that's what I heard in my own experience. And then what I did was I internalized because I'm a perfectionist. And I internalized, and I uh the next thing I had was, what is wrong with me? Right. What's wrong with me? And um, and so that's it, that's definitely an important piece to call out. Yeah. Because there's this double layer of stigma to it. But the bonding with baby issues, it's very real. It's a very real thing that women can experience. Withdrawing from friend family and friends, and what you're gonna hear with these signs is this is a lot of the same stuff we talk about in just suicide prevention within the community as well. Loss of appetite or you're eating too much, inability to sleep or sleeping too much. Again, I giggled at that one. Um, loss of energy where it's like feels overwhelming, um fatigue, intense irritability, uh, fear you aren't a good mom. This was a hundred percent something that I experienced. Hopelessness, shame, guilt, inadequacy, worthlessness. That was a big and the shame and guilt. That is, I think what keeps uh active mothers that are in postpartum that they're in that room from reaching out and getting help. Correct.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I could I could I could see that that would be hard, especially if you think about mother-in-laws and all the people that are around you after you give you birth. I mean, I haven't, but I can just imagine the pressure. The pressure, you know, oh yeah, oh yeah, for sure. And having a really good partner is would be key in in this and making sure your partner is um, you know, um reading about postpartum and educating their selves because that's the person that's probably gonna pull you out. Correct.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think too, I think women just knowing if I could go back and talk to myself, I'd be much kinder to the Jacqueline before I had my first child. But I would also educate myself. I think that's that's one of the steps to help preventing it is just education that it it is a thing that can happen. You can prepare all day long. But until you get to that moment and you have that baby, you actually don't know how your body's gonna respond. And there's several factors that play into that. Yeah. But just having a general awareness and knowledge of it, I think is so critical. And I did it. I did it going into it. I had no, I had this like la di da, it's gonna be perfect, you know. I even was like, here's my birth plan, and it's gonna go exactly to, and it didn't at all.

SPEAKER_00:

Can I ask you a really personal question? Sure, please. Did you struggle with thoughts of suicide during your postpartum? I did. Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. I did. Um, and had you ever struggled uh previously?

SPEAKER_01:

I never struggled with thoughts of suicide.

SPEAKER_00:

I um So that was your first time, though. So that's that's kind of that's important, I think, to it is important to note make note of for people.

SPEAKER_01:

I have a history of um anxiety and depression. When I was 16, I went to my parents and said, I don't know what's wrong, but something's wrong.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I started therapy in medicine uh when I was 16. And so um I'm familiar with those things. Yeah. Um, but not once did I think, oh, I probably should have this conversation with because at the time when I went in, I was not on medicine. Um, I had stopped taking medicine. And um, so there weren't any conversations about that. And that I'll get to more of that in my second pregnancy and what I feel like was the difference maker for me personally. But um, I wasn't on anything. And so in my head, I was just like, you know, I didn't even think, hey, you have a history with anxiety. Right. Maybe maybe you should be preparing for what that looks like in the post side of things.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really important. And I think for even people, I mean, I could just talk about myself here for a second. It's like, you know, at a young age, I struggle with thoughts of suicide. And okay, one day if I have a kid and I'm going through postpartum, you know, that's like a big fear for me. It's like, what's gonna happen? Yeah. And so I think for those that have struggled, you know, with those thoughts that uh paying attention, educating yourself, um, talking to your doctor, talking to a therapist, seeing what medications might be right, yes, could really help. Yes. Um I think, yeah, because that's I mean, that is terrifying just for me alone, you know, to think about. Um, what are your thoughts on miscarriages and women that um say they lose three months in, four months in, five months in? Do you think the postpartum, the hormonal drop um is as extreme? Or would you say like look for the same signs? Because I think that also goes under like overlooked. Oh, it absolutely does. Because then people are struggling with a loss, but then they also have the hormonal drop. Correct. And then there's like a whole other guilt and weirdness around that. And I found that um women don't talk about it. No, we don't talk about it at all. I was so surprised. I mean, I I work in a hair salon. Right. And women talk about everything, right? Like literally everything. And I I had a miscarriage at the beginning of the year, and I even I found myself kind of being quiet and I'm kind of like very talkative and very open person. And but I I had started talking about it. And what I found in my chair was that women wanted to talk about it. They like to talk about it, but um, it's there's not like a space really for women to talk about it. And then and then then the depression that that led to, you know? And correct. I I've seen, you know, ups and downs. I had a lady come in the other day. She's like, okay, I want to cut bangs, I want to cut my hair here, and I want to dye it black. And I was like, What's going on? Like, are you okay? Just pause and talk about your life. Let's send it. We need therapy. Yeah. And she had gone through a miscarriage. Yeah. And so I was like, okay, we're not cutting your hair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're gonna later. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like you're just not even in your right mind. And that was and it was an early loss for her too. So it's like, yeah, mental health is so complex.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'll share with you, I had a miscarriage. Yeah. Um, but it was early in my husband and I's marriage, we were not trying. And I think this is a a crucial thing to absolutely talk about as part of this maternal mental health spectrum. Um it was heartbreaking, but also it was one of those things where I was grateful, which sounds weird because we were in a place where we we couldn't afford to take care of a child. There was no way. There was no way. Um, so I had this like guilt and shame and all the like stuff that kind of goes with that. And we're mourning loss, right? Yeah. Skip forward to okay, we're ready to start a family, so we're gonna start trying. Um I did not know that on average, it takes a woman about a year and a half on average to get pregnant. Wow. Nobody tells you that. No, nobody says that to you now. When I have friends that are like, I'm trying to get pregnant, that's the first thing I'll say is start now. You know, it takes about a year and a half to get pregnant on average. Yeah. And I think that's important for women to know because this was my experience. So it took us about a year for me to get pregnant with our son. And um in that year, I would, we would try, and then I would not be pregnant and I would cry. And then we try again and I wouldn't be pregnant and I would cry. And I did that and back and forth and back and forth every single month. The same thing. It got worse as you were going as I was going through, because I was like, oh my gosh, is something wrong with me? Is something wrong with him? Like, it's this whole like quiet thing that you're dealing with of like, what's going on? Mm-hmm. Am I broken? Right. Had I known that it takes on average a year and a half, I'd have been so much nicer to myself.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And it just goes back to educating ourselves and correct, reading and like the knowledge is out there and just knowledge, seeking and finding and not being afraid to reach out. I mean, yes, these days you can ask chat GPT anything.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah. That's true. This is true. I I will tell you, like, I think being willing to be the person that opens up and says, this is what's going on. That's helping to change the narrative and opening it up 100%. Um now, as far as do I think it's on the same level? I think it's a spectrum, right? And that's I often talk about postpartum depression and how women their bodies react after having a baby. It's all on a spectrum. Everyone used to be. You could have nothing. Right. It could be absolutely nothing. Or it could be, you know, my experience, or even where I've seen worse, you know, where it's it is a we are in a huge fight and battle for our mind and our baby and our health and all of those things. Yeah. Um, just like when you get pregnant, your symptoms that you can have are on a spectrum. Yeah. You can have nothing, or you can be like Amy Schumer, who was this literally vomiting every day for nine months. You know, it could be all of those things. So um, I think it's on a spectrum, and I think more people need to talk about miscarrying.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was really shocked. I was like, gosh, I've been doing hair for 20 years. And like, I was like, nobody ever hardly would tell me. I mean, here and there, but they're like, oh yeah, I had five. I had 20. Correct. I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_01:

That's certainly so common. And that's when I talk about it, that's normal. People are like, oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I had like five before we had something it makes you feel like you're not alone. There's nothing wrong. And like, you know, I have a really great doctor right now, and he was like, Look, it was just probably not a great egg. You're healthy, there's nothing. Correct. Yeah, it's correct. Yeah. Like, you know, uh, life just has a way of ridding itself, and then you know, so something great can form, and something more perfect, like the egg has to be perfect, he said. Correct. And you know, so correct.

SPEAKER_01:

And that's, you know, I will say this, and there's a little levity in this conversation. Um just circle of life kind of thing. It did make me question how one night stand babies happen. Honestly.

SPEAKER_00:

Like how? But it's it is because if you like actually think about it, it's like very rare to cut a hair rare in the has to be here. This has to be there in the line.

SPEAKER_01:

You know? Yeah. So if you're a one-night stand baby, you are very rare in this world. Yes, you're a miracle child.

SPEAKER_00:

It was just meant to be you're just meant to be here. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Yeah, that's funny. Um, let's see. Okay, let's talk about triggers. What are some of the main risk factors that might increase a woman's likelihood of developing postpartum depression?

SPEAKER_01:

So, again, Mayo Clinic, not mine specific. So, um, what the Mayo Clinic had to say was that triggers can often be genetics. Oh, okay. So there can be um some links to family history. Uh, see, that's what scares me the most. But now listen, and I'll say this to you, but also anyone else who's had lived experience with suicide. We know in our our suicide research that even if you have attempted previously, does that does not mean that you are going to die by suicide. Right. The other thing that needs to be said is you are educating yourself and those around you. So the second you start feeling those things, and even me, uneducated me, I have a clear moment in my head of the night that I had suicidal thinking and I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this, it's clear in my brain. And I don't think I'll ever be able to remove the images, what was happening, what I was doing from my head. But even then, I remember having those thoughts and going, I'm not okay. Something is wrong.

SPEAKER_00:

Cause in that moment you can't really access that part of brain. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And that's why you needed time. Correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And so it was this days, weeks, I mean, of me kind of reaching out for help, but not really. Like I was asking the people I was close to, have you ever experienced this? Like, what have you done? Like trying to like gauge. Yeah. Is this me? Yeah. Am I am I the only one who feels this way? And when I got back, it was kind of fascinating because it was a mixture of it's baby plugs. It's just baby plugs. Everybody experiences baby blues. Get outside, you know, do this, do that. And I implemented some of those strategies. And you're like, okay, helped. Coping mechanisms. Coping mechanisms. That's exactly right. Yeah. But what actually helped me, there's something deeper going on. Correct. What actually helped me, and this, and this is she still to this day, I don't think knows that she was my what really caught me. Um, it was about probably six months after I gave him birth. And I've been struggling for probably all three months. And um, we were at an event, and I I had my baby with me and my husband, and my husband was holding a baby, and I was standing next to a woman that I served on a board with for another nonprofit. And without saying anything, she said, you know, I hated the newborn face. And I whipped my head around so fast and I said, What did you just say? And she was an older woman, and and what I was getting from older women was that rhetoric of aren't you so happy? Mm-hmm. You have a baby, you should be so happy. Right. I would give anything to be back in that. And I get that now. I being out of it, I get that. Yeah, yeah, I do. But I said, I'm sorry, what did you just say? And she said, Oh, I hated the newborn phase. She was like, But after, you know, seven, eight months, every phase after was my favorite.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh. She was probably start struggling with postpartum.

SPEAKER_01:

And it was this moment of like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm half postpartum depression.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm not alone. Yeah. But other people experience this because I hated the newborn phase. Wow. What I didn't recognize then and what my my second pregnancy and and what I did to help myself in that second pregnancy was like, I needed help.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I needed to have um for me, I needed to be on medicine.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think, yeah, I remember you telling me that your your first pregnancy you didn't didn't. And then after so second pregnancy, you started medicine after delivery. So I was on medicine before.

SPEAKER_01:

And um, and actually PCP said, you gotta get off, which is not true. Talk to your OBGYN. He'll tell you whether or not you need to get off because it just depends on dosage and what you're on. Okay, that's important to say hello. These are all important conversations to have with your OBGYN. But um, we were in post op and I said, Hey doc, I struggle with postpartum and suicide. Um, I'm worried for myself. What can I do? Was this um after you literally after I got out of the OR, I'm in the post-op room, okay, holding my daughter. And you and this is when you say this is what I say to her. Yes, because she comes in for like the checkup.

SPEAKER_00:

Because you're like, I don't want to go through another seven months of hell. I don't.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And she said, Well, what dosage are you on? I said, 25 milligrams. And she said, Girl, that's licking it. And I laughed and I go, what? And she laughed at herself and she said, I'm sorry. That dosage is about the same as if you took the pill and licked it. She said, Let's let's up your dosage. Okay. And I said, Okay. And we did. And it makes me sad. But it also I'm so grateful because my postpartum, like my time with my daughter was a night and day difference. Because I had the courage to say that to my OBGYN. And because I was taking care of myself, I knew the things to like okay when these thoughts start coming in my mind. You know, I was crying all the time within it. I was I would look at him and cry and be like, I'm sorry, I can't be a better mom to you. Right. I felt so much shame and guilt. And I think some of it too is, you know, I brought in that I had that perfectionist piece. I'm a high achieving person. Yeah. That's just who I am. And we have this campaign in AFSP and it's check on your strong friends. And this is, I think, one of the things that with maternal mental health is so critical.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think oftentimes when women are these strong, powerful get stuff done women, we think they're fine. And when they say they're fine, which is what I was doing, I'm fine, I'm fine. Everything's fine. I'm fine.

SPEAKER_00:

Everything's fine.

SPEAKER_01:

We take that for what it is. And we don't yeah, we don't try to examine further. Um and so for me, uh looking at the differences, it was such a stark contrast between my son's, you know, post and my daughter's. I was I enjoy the newborn phase with her. And so I think um those are critical things to kind of pay attention to, genetics, all of those things. Um, other triggers and other things that can cause. Yes. So physical changes. So, you know, that was one thing also that I don't know why. It took me it took me a year and a half to feel like I was in my body again. Really? So there's this weird experience.

SPEAKER_00:

I hear everybody say that. I mean I hear everybody say that. It's so scary. I'm like, oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01:

It's this weird experience you have where you go like your body's not your own. Your body's not your own, right? Um, and that's because your body is physically giving so much to this baby, to the creation of this baby, to the building of its foundation that it needs, right? And you give birth to this baby, and there's a huge drop in hormones, right? Testosterone and progestion. So had I known that, I definitely think I would have given myself more grace of like, oh my gosh. Yeah, girl, you took nine months to create this baby. And you thought you were gonna be back to normal in two. Yeah. That's why that bounce back.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, I hate that word.

SPEAKER_01:

I hate that term. It's literally horrible. Oh, you'll bounce back. And I'm like, when you get rid of it.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh my gosh, I hate that word. I think it's like, I think I heard my grandparents say it and my mom say it, and it was like a word from their era. Yes, it's and I'm like, I not everybody, you know, can just do that like you did. Correct. Like everyone has their own journey, correct.

SPEAKER_01:

And and bodies are built differently, and all those things, it's not fair. It's a very not fair term to women, um, especially postpartum women. And um, but you have this this nine months of creating life, and we I put it in my head, at least with my son, that I bounce back immediately.

SPEAKER_00:

Because it puts like this pressure on you. And if you don't bounce back, there's something wrong with your wrong with you. So you're dealing with what's wrong with me that I can't stop crying?

SPEAKER_01:

What's wrong with me that I'm not happy because I've just had this baby? What's wrong with me that I'm not rail thin? Right. Right? Exactly. Um, and I also struggle with breastfeeding, which can also add more guilt. It was so much guilt of like, oh my gosh, I can't do this. I mean, I remember, which we can we'll talk about this a little bit more about, you know, what are some of the gaps in care here? And there are gaps in our care, 110%. Yeah. I remember being in the pediatrician's office and being like, they had a a breast consultant come in and a breastfeeding consultant come in and talk to me about breastfeeding. And she, she, you know, trying to breastfeed my son. Yeah. And he is, he just grab takes both hands, grabs my boob, and just shoves it. He's like, No. I laughed so hard that my husband came around the corner and he goes, What is wrong? And I said, What am I doing? Yeah. Why am I forcing this so hard? Yeah. It's clearly not working for us. Why am I doing this to myself? And we started formula. Yeah. I was a formula baby and it was giving me huge. Yeah. I mean, it was it was a nine-day difference. And that, you know, that's something that our pediatrician now has said. And and again, in my second, in my second delivery, um, he said, Did you breastfeed the first time? I breastfed for six weeks the first time because I forced myself. Okay, okay. Forced it. Forced it. Because I was pumping. Also. Yeah. To try to make it work. And the contraptions that the hospital put me on was wild. When I tell people what they had us do when we left, a lot of people are like, why, why, why would you do that? And I was like, because I thought that's what was the best thing. And it had to be that. You know, it had to be that.

SPEAKER_00:

Everything that I read right now about like pregnancy and like even like birth positions, like, oh yeah. I hear like laying on your back is one of the worst positions. And there's like, don't rub the vernix off. Right. Right. Wait till the umbilical cord turns white. And so the baby can get all the blood. And then let your husband cut it. And then, like, what else is there? Oh, the vaccines. Like, the baby isn't even hepatized. I'm like, right, I'm like bombarded with so much information, you know, about pregnancy and giving birth and all this. And it's like, I can see where there's so much pressure and like pull. And I feel like at the end of the day, you just kind of have to educate yourself on everything, like literally everything. And then you and your partner just make the best decision that you think is possible and you just roll with it. You roll with it, right? Exactly right. Yeah. I mean, we even Because my goodness, you can't make, you know, everyone's gonna disagree with something.

SPEAKER_01:

Correct, correct. So it's yeah. And I think that's what it's that's that other level of guilt that comes in with postpartum and just like that kind of there's there's so much that you have to figure out. There's also you don't know.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And then like I know um some of you know, um, pregnant women that I know, their husbands are like, so like you need a breastfeed, you need a breastfeed. This is the best for the baby, this is best for the baby. And there's like a certain amount of pressure that even the husbands are putting on the wives, and it's like they need to go to baby school, parenting, correct, like educate everything, mental health, like so it's like all inclusive. Yeah, because it's not just about, you know, formula or not formula, or you know, so I feel I feel like there's a lot of that out there too.

SPEAKER_01:

There is a lot of that out there, and that can add a lot of unnecessary pressure because again, you don't know. I mean, I've had friends that are like cows, they produce, it's insane. Yeah, they're jealous of it, it's incredible. Selling their milk online or donating. It's incredible, yeah. And then there are like people like me where if I got four milliliters, I was crying.

SPEAKER_00:

I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing, you know, like it it's and it's all of those things, and that just it's like a balance of like taking care of yourself, it sounds like yeah, and then also your baby. Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, it's all those, all those mix of things, and then um thyroid hormones drop too, which can lead to like that sluggish feeling that you feel. Yeah. Um, I had so I had a birth plan, I think I mentioned this, and um was convinced that it was gonna go exactly like that. Um, it did not. So um I went in and um they induced me. Um, it was a Monday morning at 5 a.m. And um I did not have our son until um that Thursday morning. Oh my gosh. At 12. Oh wow. So I labored for three days. Oh my gosh. And part of that was because my body wasn't ready. Okay, right? So um that was a big portion of it. And and at the time I had an OBGYN that came in, she was hilarious. I loved her. Um, and she she just said, you know, I don't know why we induced you, we should not have done this. And she wasn't my normal OBGYN. And she said, but you know, we're gonna keep trying, we're gonna keep trying. And I got to a point, my um my heartbeat dropped, my son's heartbeat dropped, and I was right at nine centimeters, and the teen came in and she just looked at me and she said, It's not gonna happen. I need I need to take this baby. We need to go to the OR. And um So C-section. So C-section. And you know, again, I my plan was this is how it's gonna go. Yeah. I didn't even read about C-section, like truly educate myself. Right, you're like, I don't want to. That's not even a thought in my brain. Maybe it's because you didn't. I don't know. It looks pretty scary to me. I whip my head around and I'm I'll probably cry. But I whip my head around and I looked at my husband and I said, I can't do this. And he said, You can do this. And all three of us are coming out of this hospital. And I said, Okay. And the minute we were like, Okay, it was it probably took five minutes for us to get to the OR. Um they pulled the baby out. Of course, my husband, y'all, he's the the funniest, most amazing man, but he did not want to see any part of the C section. And he's tall, so he's like crouching down next to me. And and the OBGYN, she just she's the excellent surgeon, and just she was like, Oh my gosh, he has red hair. Do you want to see? And my husband's like, nope, that's fine, it's fine. We'll see in a minute, you know. And um, and then we were in the hospital for about a week. We didn't leave until that was like I say a week. We didn't leave until Friday afternoon. Um it so it was a lot, it was a lot. And you know, we had them an early in the morning, and they get you up every two hours to feed and to like, so we our clocks were all off. And you know, I had just been through a major surgery surgery. Yeah. That's the other thing that I think it just gets passed over, is the rhetoric of C-section's an easy way out. Absolutely not, right? None of them are easy ways out, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Right, yeah, I know it seems more intense transaction to me that has happened.

SPEAKER_01:

I said I don't have experience in this, but it seems a lot more intense. It's more intense, and you've got now you are recovering from a surgery and birth. And birth, and now we have a baby, and you can only pick up so many pounds. Correct. Yeah, correct. Yep. If you have surgery, you actually cannot pick up, you're not supposed to pick up the care. Um so um, yeah, I think all that kind of plays into it as well.

SPEAKER_00:

And do you think they push C-sections in a lot more now? I I I I asked that question because like I have this overall general feeling. I have no evidence or anything like that, other than just like things that I hear. Um so I have no um statistical background of this information.

SPEAKER_01:

That needs to be said out loud. So people please fact check me and you can look this up yourself. But um, I do think at one point I heard that Northwest Arkansas has a very high rate of C-sections.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

A very, very high rate of the same.

SPEAKER_00:

I have a feeling that, yeah, we'll have to push fact-check that.

SPEAKER_01:

Pushing you, I don't know because and I say this to people all the time. Um, you know, I grew up as a daughter of a physician who was trained. That just because a physician is saying that does not mean that that's the end all be all. Right. It's your body, you know your body. And so when I went to my second one, I was like, I'm gonna do V back. Yeah, I'm gonna do it. And my doctor and I came to that agreement. We were like, okay, great, let's do VBAC, it's gonna happen. But then in emergency situations, just you had that's what you had to do. Well, so but my second one, we got closer to time and my OEGY and said, Hey, you're not dilated. You should be. We should already see be seeing it. In fact, you're negative, which I don't even know what that means. To this day, I still don't know what that means. That I did I just was I just like sucking it back up. I don't know what's happening, but it's not happening. I'm not coming out today. I I like to joke that I made too good of a home for my lobbies, but um, but he said, listen, we can try. Mm-hmm. Or you can move your date up. And we'll because they they put a C section date out for me. But I was like, be back, it's happening. Did you deliver at 40 weeks? I delivered at 39 weeks, I think, with her. I was right at. And um, I was in the OR because we went ahead and moved it up. I was in the OR and I was pissed. Sitting in the OR, prepped, ready to go. I was like, I was gonna be back. And they get her out. And my OBGYN said, Oh my gosh. And I was like, Of course, that's what you want to hear when you're on an OR like they're they're doing surgery on you. She goes, You're like, What? What what? So glad we did the C-section. Why? My daughter had wrapped her umbilical cord around her neck twice. Oh my gosh. And she had pretzeled, literally pretzeled the umbilical cord, and my OGYN pulls it up and she goes, I've only seen this twice in my 20 years of doing this. Wow. And so it was one of those moments of like, okay, well, I was supposed to do this. Yeah. But this is what we were supposed to be. Yeah. And she's safe and she's healthy, and I'm safe and healthy, and all the things. So I say all those things, tassage those fears. Yeah. Now, can I speak to is it push? I think that's relevant to you. Yeah. What do you want? Communicate that. Yeah. And then also be willing to one educate yourself, be better than me, educate yourself on C-section, but also know that like your plan, yes, that's great. That's but it can change. But it can change. Yeah. For the health of you and the health of the baby.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Actually, um, one of my friends, uh, she kind of told me a very similar story. She had her whole birth plan. Yeah, it's how she thought it was gonna go. And she's like, Well, I guess God had different plans for me. And she's got a beautiful, healthy boy. Yeah, yeah. So yeah. Those are good things. Um, let's see, what else? Um, hope and recovery. For women listening who might be silently struggling right now, what would you want them to know?

SPEAKER_01:

So um I think an important thing for women listening who are in the throes of this is you're not alone. In fact, there are probably more women in your life that have struggled with this than you have any.

SPEAKER_00:

And reach out and talk to them. Yeah, oh, a hundred percent. Tell somebody start talking to people, talk to your doctor.

SPEAKER_01:

Start talking. If you are a high achiever or a perfectionist like me, it is okay to say and be vulnerable, I don't think I'm doing okay. Yeah. It truly is okay to say that. And I it it it's a strength, you know, it's a strength. 100% it's a strength.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think that it's even more important in these moments because you're not only caring for yourself, but you're caring for, you know, um correct, a baby baby.

SPEAKER_01:

This brand new baby, this brand new and it's a whole new life. I think give yourself the space.

SPEAKER_00:

Let the shame go. Yes, let's let the guilt go. Yeah. Just say screw it. Yes. Be afraid to for the mother-in-law to judge you. Right. Like that's another thing. Whatever. Because I feel like the whole mother-in-law pressure is probably. I hear this through, you know, working in a salon when we talk. Yes, yes. I hear that. Well, my mother-in-law or my mother, my own mother, you know, that everyone has these, all these ideas of how you should be, but who's actually listening to you? Correct. And what you need. And it's like sometimes it's like your voice just gets it, it sounds like their voice just gets muffled. Yes. And I think that for mothers, mother-in-laws, everybody out there, like to kind of keep that in mind. And like, what's the one thing I hear is like when you first get to the hospital, don't go see the baby right away. Like see the mom first and say, Hey, how are you doing? You know, like that's that's the best etiquette that you can have after because everyone just wants to see the baby, but then like the mom's like just there.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. You know? Yeah, correct. Which nowadays the baby is in the room with you all the time. So is it? Oh yeah. Oh, good. There's no thing. Oh yeah. And there's no going into a you're not gonna get mixed up in the nursery. Now, unless you have unless you have like an a a situation where we need to go right like the Nikki or whatever. Yeah. But um, no, I think, and I think talking about it, I think on the mother-in-law side, this is where the partner comes into play significantly. And if you don't have a partner, um, if you're a badass having a baby on your own, kudos to you. But also having a friend or some type of support that can be your, I guess, gate is the best way.

SPEAKER_00:

What was it, the thing that you said? Do you have eight minutes? Or seven minutes? Yeah, what do you have eight minutes? Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

That can be your person.

SPEAKER_00:

Or you can say, or the person can say, Do you need eight minutes? Right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Do you have eight minutes or do you need eight minutes?

SPEAKER_01:

Eight minutes. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. But and that comes from a um campaign we did of like just really setting up those systems that if you're struggling to be able to say, Hey, do you have eight minutes? Kind of a code word for like, I'm struggling with suicide. Yeah. And say out loud, like, I'm not, I'm not okay. Right. Right. Right. So no, but I think the partner or the friend that can help gatekeep you and the baby. What I mean by that is if mother-in-law is not respecting boundaries, this is where the partner comes into play. Right. And needs to play that role. Yep. Has to play that role.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, like ask the mother first if it's okay for somebody to come into the room. Correct. Is what I was reading about this last night, turned to prep for this. But it was like the mother is in a very vulnerable place. She's healing. Right. Um, she just went through like the biggest hardest thing she'll ever go through. Her body has been pushed to the limits. And so making sure that that every single person that enters that room, it's you, you've you've asked. Yeah. Are you ready? Is it okay? And if and like, don't put any pressure, don't push, and just be super respectful for is what I've read.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. And that's I wrote in here take take lead from mom. Yeah. Right. And and and what I would encourage women who maybe aren't in postpartum but are pregnant and expecting is start communicating what you want during postpartum.

SPEAKER_00:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

Clearly. Way before. Way before. These are gonna be the boundaries, these are gonna be, you know, a lot of times because that could give somebody a lot of anxiety if those things aren't in place.

SPEAKER_00:

Like I think I would freak out. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

I didn't have um necessarily mother-in-law, dance mom passed, and I didn't have a mother-in-law that, you know, came over, but um, you know, we were very clear. We this is you're welcome to come and visit, please Alice, you know, you know, all these things. Yeah. And then, you know, I had people that were like, we want to do a meal train for you. So you kind of have to decide those things too, but just communicate that clearly in advance would be my my uh two cents on that. Um, but that's where partner comes into play, where we can kind of help gatekeep baby and mom just because this is a really sensitive time of you're recovering, there's all these, it's all newness. Also, you know, you're breastfeeding on demand. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think some cultures like do this 40-day thing.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Some cultures do 40 days of just them and then there's a really great book, and I cannot think of it right now, that I read um when I was expecting our son. And it starts up, it's written by a British woman. It's very good. But I giggled at her and now being out of sight of all of it, and I actually did it. Um, but she talks about walking into your home and walking your baby around and showing them the house like you would uh a new guest. Oh my gosh, it's so she was like, I just laugh, I remember laughing, reading that because when I was pregnant, because I was like, but I did it. I did it with the I just walked him around and I was like, this is the dining room and this is the and it just was one of those things where it's like this is our moment to like we're building this life with him. Yeah, you know, so um definitely do boundaries. I I think if anyone's listening and they're in the throes at this, the other really important thing for you to know is, and a lot of people don't know this, there's actually a national maternal mental health hotline. It is 24-7, it's over 250 languages, and it is designed for um anybody that is struggling with anything around postpartum. You're pregnant, you know, there are some women that struggle with depression and suicide while they're pregnant. Any of that breastfeeding. What is this hotline? So it's 1-800 TLC mama, t 1-800 TLC mama, and I did the lifting, so it's 1-800-852-6262.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, and let me ask you a question. If somebody can't remember that in the moment, um, can they call 998-988 and get this number? They can get the six they'll connect them with that number. Yep, yep, yep. Okay, perfect. So 988 is so easy to remember.

SPEAKER_01:

And then if you want to repeat that one more time to our listeners, 1-800-TLC Mama. And it's great. And and and if you're a partner or friend listening, go ahead and take that down.

SPEAKER_00:

Put it in your phone. If you're seeing signs of postpartum and you're worried, call that number and they can help walk you through what to do, what the signs are, and like refresh your memory. Cause I mean, even myself being educated, when somebody comes up and says, Hey, I'm struggling, I'm like, okay, what are the steps? Da da da. And sometimes you get in like this, you know, fright mode, and you're like, I want to do everything right. And it's so nice to just have that number to call, be like, hold on one second, and it can kind of like calmly like walk you through it. Yeah, you know? Yeah. Cause like we all go through things, but we want to make sure that we're um, you know, doing our best to help other people that actually do reach out because you may be the only person, you may be the only person that um they reach out to. 100%. You may be their only lifeline. A hundred percent. So and and and knowing what to do and calling those numbers, I think, is can be life or death sometimes for people for just never know.

SPEAKER_01:

For sure. And I'll add to like in my first pregnancy, some of the things that helped me um kind of get out of the hole. Yeah. Um, is I I akin it to when we shut down completely for the COVID pandemic and everyone was isolated and it was it was hard because we as human beings, we need connection, right? Yeah. So um, you're kind of going through the same thing when you're in postpartum. It's very isolating. It's all the like kind of risk factors that we talk about that can kind of combine to create this perfect storm. And so I started going, uh, I would I made myself a schedule. I'm such a type A personality that I made myself a schedule every day and it made me look forward to the same thing. And I matched it with my son's sleep schedule. So we got up in the morning, we went for a walk. I got outside. I wasn't doing that. You know, when I first got home, I was just kind of in the habit.

SPEAKER_00:

Force yourself to get out. I was just here.

SPEAKER_01:

But I was like, we got we gotta get out and go. Yeah. Um, I started forcing myself to uh plan moments throughout the week where I would go to Target or I would go get lunch with somebody, or I would, and it felt daunting because you pack all the things, there's a lot of stuff there with tapies that you had to carry. And I was, you know, early on I was like, why would I do that to myself? But I started forcing myself because I just realized I needed a moment to just interact, look at something else, you know, engage with the world around me. And so I started putting those things on my calendar, which was so helpful for my brain to be like, okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And I feel like something that comes to mind too. Um if you can't get to that point even, yes, invite somebody over and have coffee, have tea, and maybe have them help you get out of the house and pack that bag and go on that walk. Or just like phone a friend and be like, look, I need you to come over once a week and just help me take this next step because I don't want to fall in this hole. Yep. Making like a pact like that with somebody could make a huge difference. Huge difference. Because like what you're seeing is great and and I think it shows a lot of strength that you could do that. But I know like when I was really struggling, like I I didn't even have the strength to barely like let my dog out the door. Right. You know? So it's like I feel it just reminded me of like, I probably should have invited somebody over to my house, but I was still embarrassed in that moment. Right. I was like, my house is a mess. This is, but I think just like getting over the fear of reaching out and just think, okay, I need help. So come over and help me. Yes, yes. And just a trusted friend. Yes. Or someone.

SPEAKER_01:

I think you bring up a really good point. So um I have this thing that I do. I've done it, I learned it from somebody, so it's not original. Um, but I do this thing called pick three for lunch. So, or dinner, if I'm going to coffee with somebody, I'm like, pick three places and then I'll pick one. Okay. But my concept here is let's flip that. Pick one. So you're going to send to your friend, if you are a friend or a mother-in-law, or um, you know, a church member or neighbor, and you want to help your um person who's just had a baby, send them three options of what you could or want to do uh-huh and let them pick one. I think what happens is we want to help women that are in these periods of time, but we go, tell me what you need. And they you they don't know what they need. I don't know what I need. Yeah. I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00:

We need somebody to just tell us what to do. I need some.

SPEAKER_01:

Or do some laundry. I need somebody to do, you know, it's like it's it's all these things. Yeah. Um, and make them like those things that you offer.

SPEAKER_00:

Make them I think that's I think that's key too, is that sometimes people just don't have enough help. Correct. Enough community. Correct. Enough, you know, women or other women around them to to help. I think um, you know, they say it takes a village, but I think there's something to that. So I think, you know, just not being afraid to reach out, trying to build a community of women around you, or, you know, um, maybe calling the hotline and saying, hey, is there like a local group?

SPEAKER_02:

Support groups.

SPEAKER_00:

Support groups that I could connect with because like I'm really struggling. Something, just something.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, something is huge. I think for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. For sure, for sure. Well, I do you have anything else that you want to share with our listeners?

SPEAKER_01:

Trying to think if there's anything else. Um know that with appropriate treatment, yeah, percent of women who struggle with postpartum um recover.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's a really important thing to hear now.

SPEAKER_00:

And you said too, like for you, it was like the first seven months, especially, and then you were able to dial it back down. I think like letting go of that fear, is this medication gonna affect the baby? Is it gonna affect me? Is it gonna did you take medication while you were pregnant?

SPEAKER_01:

I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, and it was and your doctors are like, it's a safe, it's okay, all the things. And I think that there's a stigma around taking medication also while you're pregnant.

SPEAKER_01:

There is.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, and so I think there's confusion.

SPEAKER_01:

And there's a lot of confusion, right? You need to have a conversation with the OBGYN.

SPEAKER_00:

You're like, wait, can I take a Tylenol?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, when I when I talk to you by OBGYN, she was like, No, no, you're fine. That's fine. You're fine.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So I mean, I think that's well, and I think also to your point though, some people say different things. They do. You know, I have I have heard that. Um one of my clients, she had one doctor said one thing, another doctor said the other thing. And so I think it's really finding the right doctor for you, making sure you connect with that person, um, and doing your research and for sure, not being afraid to ask all of the questions. Like even if you think they're stupid, yeah, ask, ask, ask. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01:

And I would, I think the last two things to end on I think would be important to say is if you are someone who's already gone through postpartum and you had postpartum depression, um, don't be afraid to share it, but also share it in a way where we're talking about it as a spectrum. Right. We're not all gonna experience the same thing. But because you did experience it, letting somebody know that I'm a safe person to have this conversation with. I'm willing to share mine. So if you need to share yours, please come to me. Yeah. I mean, I had I I started talking about it openly and talking about being on medicine openly. And I actually had a close friend come to me and talk to me, like, hey, I think I need to do this. Yeah. And we had that conversation. And it was all because I was willing to share it, but share it on a spectrum perspective.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

This may not be how you experience it, but it was how I did.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And again, like even just on the show, it's like we're not here to, you know, we're not key experts and doctors and all of these things. We're here to share lived experience. Right. What worked for us may not work for you, you know. So it's like always talk to your healthcare provider, but we're here to help break the stigmas and just start that conversation and um educate people on what we do know for sure around suicide. So thank you so much for being here, Jaclyn. I appreciate you. It's been, it's been the best. Um, and for those of you listening, I hope that this helps. If you know somebody that's struggling, send them this uh podcast and tell them we'll see you next time. If you're struggling, remember how you think is how you feel. If your feelings feel heavy, start by shifting the thought. You're not stuck, your brain can change, so can your story. I'm Jessica G. This is the Justin Time Podcast, and I'll see you next time. Until then, keep going. Never give up. And remember, the world is better with you in it, whether you believe it or not. To help reach others, please share this with your friends, family, and don't forget to like, subscribe, and donate.