Just In Time to Save a Life

Ep. 9 - Grief Hits Different: Surviving Suicide Loss

• Jessica Greenwalt

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A raw, hopeful conversation about living after suicide loss and the everyday ways we find our way back to ourselves. Jessica sits down with Jenna Jones from AFSP Arkansas to remember her dad with honesty and warmth, unpack the guilt and questions that trail a death by suicide, and highlight the practices that make recovery feel possible again. We walk through age-appropriate language for kids, why play and routine are powerful after trauma, and how the brain often processes grief during mundane tasks like grocery runs and camp days.

Jenna shares how years after her loss, perfectionism and people-pleasing pushed her into therapy, where she uncovered abandonment wounds she didn’t have words for at fourteen. The lesson isn’t “grieve faster,” it’s “right timing”: when therapy feels too heavy, movement, sunlight, and simple routines can steady the nervous system until deeper work is doable. We also get practical about supporting survivors at work, using the loved one’s name, offering flexibility around hard dates and holidays, and resisting the urge to ask for morbid details. Real care means checking capacity, not pushing stories, and sitting in silence when silence is needed.

Across it all, we name and dismantle harmful myths. Suicide isn’t weakness or selfishness; it’s often the illness convincing someone they’re a burden. That lie isn’t reality. Preserving memory through shared stories, notes, and laughter honors the whole person, not just their final moment. And for anyone standing on the edge: never give up. Life is better with you in it. If this conversation moved you, subscribe, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find their way to hope.

If you are in a crisis or feel unsafe, call or text 988 or dial 911 for immediate support. There are people out there who will listen and can help.

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SPEAKER_03:

Hi, I'm Jessica G, and this is the Justin Time Podcast. If you're struggling today, I want you to know this podcast is here for you, but it's not a substitute for professional help. If you're in a crisis or feel unsafe, please call or text 988 or dial 911 for immediate support. There are people out there who will listen and can help. On this show, I'll be sharing personal experiences, mindset shifts, talking with key experts, and sharing real tools that help me go from barely surviving to thriving. This is not about quick fixes or one size fits all advice. It's raw, it's honest, it's what worked for me and what I believe can help others too. Let's walk together from darkness to hope.

SPEAKER_00:

It'll be just in time to save a lives.

SPEAKER_03:

Hello, hello, welcome back, everybody. Uh today we are going to talk about lost survivors, and we have Jaclyn Sharp with us. Hi. And she's with AFSP. She is the area director of Arkansas. And we also have Jenna Jones, who is a lost survivor but also a board member.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. I serve on the board of directors for um the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and I serve as their social media ambassador and PR chair.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes. And Jenna and I actually met at the Capitol, was it last year or the year before, I believe? It was 2024. Yeah. And she was doing photography.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. So you run social media, right? Yes, I run the AFSB Arkansas Social Media. And whenever I get the chance to have my camera with me, I try to get some pictures of all the events we do. Yeah. That's awesome. Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

And this is Henry. He's our emotional support animal today. Little angel. He just wanted to be here and wear his Christmas sweater for everybody. Looks like he's sleepy. I know. He just said hello. He made a little. All right. So cute. Um, so today we're gonna get into a little bit about your story. Um can you share a little bit about your loved one and who they were to you in your life?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So um when I was 14, I lost my dad. Um he was living in Dallas, Texas at the time. So we did have some time apart before his passing. Um, but before I lost him, he was just such a funny guy. Um, he really was, he struggled a lot with addiction toward the end. But um, just my overall memories of him, he's just so funny and um just so like he loved me so much. And that's I think the greatest thing that I remember about him. So what was his name? Um Jeff. Jeff. Yes. Jeff Jones. Jeff Jones. Um, what was your relationship like before his passing? Um, it, like I said, before um things started to go downhill, he um was just super funny. Everybody loved him. He um loved rock and roll, he loved to play um the drums, he loved motorcycles, he had a bunch of tattoos. Um, and then toward the end, our relationship got a little bit strained. But um, my family did a really good job of protecting me. And he also did a good job of protecting me just from the addiction that he was facing. He struggled with um opiate addiction as well as alcoholism. And um, even toward the end, our relationship was good. Um, like I said, got a little strenuous, but I still could tell that he loved me with his whole heart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, as I sit here and listen to you talk, something that comes up to me, and we talked about it actually that day at the Capitol. Um, I don't know if you remember, but it was It was the first time I'd ever heard it, and you said something about recovery. Do you remember what that was? That there's there's hope in recovery, or it was a statement that was made that day after people speaking.

SPEAKER_01:

I don't I don't know. Nothing's coming right to my mind. Um I know we often talk about with lost survivors specifically that you know recovery is is possible. It's possible, you know, it's something that um, but that the grief journey is complicated, especially for lost survivors of suicide specifically, because there's a lot of layers to suicide loss and the grief of suicide loss. And so, you know, we tell our lost survivors, and as somebody that works with a lot of lost survivors, I'm familiar with, you know, sometimes dates are hard, you know, especially the date of their loved one's passing can be very difficult. Um and so just knowing those things and knowing somebody's story and being able to say, okay, you know, around this time, Jenna's needs some extra checking in on, or she, you know, she may not want to be contacted as much, you know, just having awareness like that.

SPEAKER_03:

But yeah, because everybody's different. Yep.

SPEAKER_01:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03:

Some people, you know, will put it in their phone and like remind you every year, and you're like, oh my gosh, I wish like that's so nice that you have people to do that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, I've had people, my family all knows the the best thing for me is just like a simple, I love ya. Um, my uncle Matt always says, I love you extra today, or like, I love you today. Yeah, yeah. And that's always a good reminder. Um, but definitely those first few years, I got lots of very lengthy paragraphs that I was like, oh my gosh. Yeah. And they're so heartfelt and so well intended. Well intended.

SPEAKER_03:

But yes, it's just different for everybody. Yeah. And sometimes you're like, because I know you lost your dad in 2017. And we were just talking about this right before we went on. I lost also my dad and brother uh the same year. And so I was like, okay, I'm trying to put your timeline together. And I mean, like you said, the grief, it's it's so different. And I remember there was been a couple of years where I literally forgot, like, didn't realize it was the actual date until I got like a message from somebody and I was like, oh, I was doing so good. And then all of a sudden you're like, at the same time, it's like, it's so sweet that people are remembering them. But at the same time, sometimes it like, like, how did you feel?

SPEAKER_02:

Just you're I've been in the same position where like I'm going about my day, I've honestly completely forgotten. Right. And then somebody texts me and I'm like, like, I really appreciate that. But also, like, dang it, I was really, like you said, I was doing good. I felt good. Um, but honestly, by the end of the day, I always do appreciate the text. I just um in that moment, I'm just like, oh, dang it. And then part of me also, of course, feels guilty being the people placer I am feels guilty. Yeah, this is exactly what I felt guilty too. Of like, oh, I forgot. But then I have to just remind myself, like, this is a natural part of the grieving process. I'm not supposed to live my life according to my dad taking his life. Correct. I'm supposed to just be living my life. Yes, yeah. And so, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, that leads me to the next question. Um, in those first days or weeks after losing him, how did you navigate through that shock and that pain?

SPEAKER_02:

So I spent a lot of time with family. I really don't remember much of the first week or so, just because obviously that's kind of our body's response. Yeah. Um, but I just spent so much time with my family. I um was thinking about this on my way up here. Like, I was truly blessed with such an incredible family. They all were so selfless in that they were able to set aside their feelings. My Nana and Pacball losing their son, my aunt losing her brother, my mom losing her ex-husband, but still her co-parent. Right. Her best friend for a long time. Yes. Everybody was able to set those feelings aside and just really hone in on making sure I was okay. Um, and I I really am so thankful for that. And that's truly like my greatest memory. Um, I also spent a lot of time with my friends. And um, I think that that was really healthy for me was being just surrounded by people. Yeah. Um, did you ever have thoughts of suicide after that yourself? I have not. Um, I've always been a pretty positive person. When I was in college, I struggled a lot with my mental health. Just um I developed a lot of perfectionism tendencies. And um, my my biggest, my biggest frustration is um, or my biggest fear in general is like disappointing people. And um, I was working a job where I was um working in customer service, and I obviously can't please anybody in customer service. And so um at that point I started going to therapy. Yeah. And um anyway, just what was the question?

SPEAKER_03:

Um You were just talking about your mental health. Like um, I asked if you had ever struggled with suicide ideation. Yes, ideation after that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, I've never struggled with suicidal ideation after that, but I have um just become more in tune with my mental health, I think. Got it.

SPEAKER_01:

I want to highlight something with Jenna's story that I think is super important. So um oftentimes when we talk to lost survivors, um, one of the questions we get is how do we navigate this when we're trying to take care of children and teens? Right. And Jenna's family, whom I've had the privilege of meeting her mother, and she's an incredible woman. Um, they're a great example of what to do. Um, in that, you know, Jenna tells when she shares her story, she talks about that they sat her down and they told her that he died by suicide. It was age-appropriate language, which is what, you know, we encourage people, you want to be direct, use age-appropriate language, tell, you know, kiddos what's happened. Um, and then just offering that support being the if you need to talk about this at any point, you know, please talk about this. I was going through our survivor guide, which I'll send you a link. We, it's it's a free resource that anybody can have access to. But um, I was going through it today and I was actually reminded of my own children because one of the things they say is, you know, being open about whenever you need to talk about this or ask a question about it, or you know, memory comes up. Uh-huh. That's okay. Let's do that. Come to me, come talk to me about that. And I think Jenna's family did a phenomenal job of that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

And uh one of the things that made me think of is, you know, even with my own children, I say these things, and oftentimes it's random, but that's because children are processing at different times and different levels and encouraging Jenna to go be with friends. Play is a big part of how children process learning and how their their brains grow and how they process through even traumatic events. And so that is, they're just like a great example of doing the right things as you're trying to process suicide loss with children and teens.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. And to kind of jump off that too, um, you were talking about how play is so important. When um, so obviously I lost my dad at the beginning of the summer. We were talking about that before. And so I, I mean, timing, um, this is gonna sound wrong, but like it couldn't have been more perfect, I think, for my grieving process, just because I wasn't having to go to school. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. My I've always been a big choir kid. Um, my choir director called my mom and I had signed up to go to choir camp that summer. And it was a few weeks after my dad had passed away. And she called my mom and said, like, I really think that this will still be very good for Jenna. Yeah. I would love, like, are you comfortable with me calling her and asking her to come? And I I thought about it and I ended up going. And seriously, like encouraging your kids to get out and like do fun things after they lose a loved one, even if it's not by suicide, just losing a loved one in general. Yeah. It is so helpful because it gave me an escape and it gave me something to focus on, something healthy to focus on. Yeah. It was incredible.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's also one of the things that is in this guide is you know, keep routines. Yes. Pretty normal. Yeah. Um, and one of the research studies that we learned about a few years ago that I thought was phenomenal, and this speaks to exactly what you're talking about, is that they've been studying the brain of suicide loss survivors specifically. And what they're finding is that um suicide loss survivors process their grief even in the mundane. So when you're processing, maybe you're, you know, crying or having a moment or really thinking through things, or you're angry, or you're feeling all the emotions, that's processing. But what we're actually finding is that your brain's actually processing that loss when you're doing mundane tasks like going to the grocery store or, you know, being at, you know, camp. Your brain is processing those things even when you're not necessarily aware of it, which I think is quite phenomenal.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. Um, and I think so. My dad had five children, like all under the age of 12.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

When he had passed away. And that was really, really hard to see. But at the same time, those kids are so resilient. Kids are very resilient. Yeah. It was like me and my other brothers, obviously, Justin and I have another brother, Jonathan. Didn't do so well. But the younger kids really um, I think processed it quicker, you know, and it seemed to be a little bit more okay. It took them a little less time. So it was interesting. But um, but yeah. Um, are there parts of the grieving process that have been like more heavy or things that are just unexpected that have just kind of like thrown you back?

SPEAKER_02:

For sure. I one, I mean, like I said, with my family, I've been blessed with the best family in the world. Um, my my family and I talk about it a lot. Like we bounced back from losing my dad very quickly. Like, truly miraculous how we were able to just kind of return to life as normal. Um, the biggest thing I've noticed with my grieving process is it will hit me out of absolutely nowhere. Like, I remember one time I saw somebody in a parking lot of a Jam Mart, and it literally sent me into the biggest spiral. And I went home and I just had a little breakdown for a second. And my mom was so supportive. Um, I was in high school when it happened, and she was just like, it is okay. She was like, do not feel bad for this. This is so normal. She said, I know that this is so confusing for you. I know nobody understands, but you nobody, your situation is not normal. Your situation is not um average. Nobody can explain to you how you're supposed to feel. Right. And even you can't explain how you're supposed to feel. Yeah. Did that person look like your dad? Is that what triggered it? Um, no, they were sitting in the car in a like random back alley. And for whatever reason, it just like shot to a random memory I had. Okay. And just threw me for a loop.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I feel like things like that happen all the time. Yes. The other day, I was driving and I could have sworn I saw this kid that looked just like my brother. And I just I went home and I started balling. And I was like, I was fine like the day before. But it it does, it's it hits you.

SPEAKER_02:

And then sometimes I'll, I mean, I'll be seeing something that should, should be very triggering for me. And I'll just and I'm like, I can just sit through that and it's okay. Right. But it's just the most random things that's been the biggest surprise to me. So I've had to just kind of like remind myself if I see something and I start feeling like weird and I'm like, what is going on right now? It's like, this is so normal. Yeah. Yeah. It's so normal and it's so not normal. It's just, it's life.

SPEAKER_01:

It's life with suicide loss. Yes, specifically. Yeah. And as I was kind of going through stuff today, um, you know, I don't consider myself a suicide loss survivor. We lost a volunteer in September and I shared that with um Jess. Yeah. And um, but I've found myself going through kind of the same things. I mean, Jenna was the first person to tell me, call and let me know. And um, and so processing through it, and then I'll find myself like I'll come across an email or photos of this volunteer, and it's I'm kind of like right back in it of just like I feel guilt and I feel frustration and all the things. And so there's just so many questions. There's so many questions, and you know, that was something too as I was going through. If you are somebody that is a lost survivor and you're not comfortable saying that or sharing that, that's okay. You know, process through that and allow it to be what you need it to be as you're processing through. Oftentimes you'll see with AFSP, and we've, I think, ta touched on this previously, um, is when individuals, especially, you know, high-profile individuals die by suicide, and the family may come out and say, well, they died by mental illness. Right. You know, you're always going to see AFSP mimic that because that's what the story needs to be for those lost survivors. Right. And so I would encourage the same conversation. It's okay for me to say, I don't count myself as a lost survivor, even though I've definitely been close to someone and we've lost them. And so that's my definition right now. But I think, you know, Jenna does a great job of highlighting there's a lot of emotions. It's complicated and it's not linear. So oftentimes I'll engage with lost survivors and they'll say, um, I just want to go through all the process of grief. Yes. Like, bam, bam, bam, get it over with. And, you know, that may happen for you, but then eight years later, you may find yourself randomly right back in anger.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. I um I don't know if y'all know Emily Kaiser. She's an influencer. Um, she's one of my favorites. She's just recently been going through um a grief journey of living losing somebody very close to her. And she's been sharing about it on her social media since she's kind of come back. Yeah. And um, she and her husband went on a grief retreat, and I will never forget what she said. She said, the 12 stages of grief were created for elderly people that were moving from normal life to like residential facilities. I don't know. She said, like when people tell you that there is a process to your grief, it is not true. And then she also said, This retreat changed my view on grief. You don't want grief to be here. Grief doesn't want to be here either. Right. They didn't ask to be here. So be grief's friend. Right. And like work with your grief. And I think that has, I literally heard that like three weeks ago. And it has seriously changed my view on grief in general, but particularly with the loss of my dad. It was so helpful to hear that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I agree with that. And I think, you know, that's for any loss. And I think, you know, I've had other forms of loss in my life. And when somebody passes and I go to a funeral, all those other losses come right back up. And I think that's the case with a lot of grief. Where suicide is more complicated is that oftentimes the biggest struggle is the why are the questions uh that are that remain and and just really grappling with that, you know, um guilt and could something have been done? Why did they choose to do this? That conversation I think makes it much more complicated. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and I went through that for months and years, and you know, everybody tells you, you can't do that, you can't blame yourself, but you can't not help asking yourself, okay, what if I picked up the phone and called him? Or what if I flew home one day earlier? Right, you know? And the night that my brother died, and it being literally just a month from my dad, I was just like, oh my God, like boom, and then boom again. It was like, I mean, I hadn't even begun to process that. And the last time I saw Justin was at my dad's funeral.

unknown:

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01:

No apologizing.

SPEAKER_02:

Need it. I absolutely understand that feeling. Um, when we lost my dad, I was at um church camp with my uncle and my cousins, and um my dad had texted me earlier that day, and um I didn't answer because I was having too much fun. And um I I really struggled with that as well. Your dad told you. He sent me a text message. He sent me a text. Um, and it was his, I it was his goodbye text to me. Um and I I read it and I was I read it later that evening and I was just like, love you. Because I obviously I wasn't reading it thinking like that this is the end. Um, and then I reread it and there was just a part of me that I was like, I wonder if he was like waiting for me to text him back. But I and everybody has said the same thing, like, you can't blame yourself for that. And I've it's taken me a long time, but I think I've finally gotten to the point where, like, I have to know for me personally, my faith is very important to me. And I am I am held strong by the fact that I know that there is a creator that is in control and whatever you know higher being it is that anybody believes in, like something is in control of everything. You cannot live trying to control everything in your life. That's been a very freeing thing for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, I'm curious to know, like, at what point did you want to start doing things with mental health and get involved with AFSP and all that? Because this is a good story. True. I was I'm just so fascinated with people that like turn their grief and try to turn it into something more positive. And there's like healthy aspects of that, and then there's there can be not so healthy ways. And that's you know, when I met you and I was like, I want to do something, but I wanted to learn and I didn't know how, and I didn't want to make mistakes and all that. So you were 14 when this happened. So could you tell me a little bit about your journey, how you kind of got to hear it? Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

So honestly, from 14 to like 19, I just kind of went about life. Like I said, it was truly miraculous how quickly my family and I were able to just like kind of get back to normal life and just feel our feelings when we needed to feel them and just move on. Um, when I got to college, I was at La Huerta, the best restaurant on the face of the earth. And um, I had met a girl and she was a mutual friend of Jacqueline's, and she was like, Oh my goodness, you we of course I will get into a deep discussion anytime. Anytime. I love getting beeped with people. Um, and we started talking about how um I have a therapist aunt. And I, you know, I lost my dad when I was 14, and we started discussing that. She said, You need to meet my friend Jacqueline. And I was like, okay. And so um I reached out to Jaclyn and we ended up, um, I ended up serving as the co-chair for the University of Arkansas out of the darkness walk that year. And it's just been history since. I've just I loved it. I literally fell in love from the second that I started doing it.

SPEAKER_01:

I think uh for me, and I'll get a little bit uh mushy with Jenna, but Jenna was this fireball that just came into um what we were doing um at the University of Arkansas Fayetteville. And um for me, the like aha moment, I love, I'm a type A personnel, I love organized things, I love all of those things. And then sometimes when you work with college students, that's not their dream. Yeah. So um I get to the event that morning and I get handed by Jenna like a, it's like was probably a five-page staple document uh with the agenda, who's doing what, who's going where. Like it was so, it was so, I was like, I'm in love with this person. But Jenna has is such a a really beautiful example. And you know, I think about um the profound impact that AFSP and the Lost Survivors have had on my personal life, is that um the people that I get the opportunity to work with on a daily basis are individuals that have experienced some of the darkest days that you can as a human being. And instead of curling into a ball and refusing to get out of bed, they want to make the world a better place. And they often say, I just want to make it so no one else experiences this day. And I will be forever changed by that. And Jenna's such a great example of, and and the other thing about it too is I have so much hope for our future and our children and our teenagers because of individuals like Jenna. You know, she came through college, and here's this person that that knows it, understands it, is on fire for it, all of those things, and is a light in her community. And that's I I mean, there are adults that I can't teach that to.

SPEAKER_02:

So well, thank you. Jacqueline is very sweet to me. I that was very, very kind. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

How many times this?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's not an easy thing to do. It's not, yeah. Um, it's not, but I'm I'm very thankful for Jacqueline for you for inviting me to come and speak with y'all. I'm just so thankful for all the opportunities that I've been given to share about my dad. And um just like I knew that AFSP was going to be an opportunity for me to help other people. I did not think AFSP was going to be an opportunity for me to get help. I have had so many incredible conversations with so many incredible people. It has like internally healed me so much just talking to people and hearing their stories. I mean, just even talking to you and hearing how similar our stories are in time, initials. I mean everything. It is, it's just so it's miraculous how how much you can learn just from a simple conversation with somebody about yourself.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah. And I think you you really hit it on the head when you said, like, you know, why do we do these things? Why do we do all this? And it's like we don't want other people to feel that pain that we feel because it is some of the darkest days, and it is, in my opinion, like one of the worst things that can possibly happen to you. Yeah, you know, yeah. And that's why we don't want other people to do it. Not only because it, you know, hurts so many loved ones around us, but it also, you know, for everyone, suicide, there's usually 25 other attempts. Yep. Correct. And when I think about that number, and you know, my brother being, he was in the fraternity sitting by which their pledge was suicide prevention. Yeah. And, you know, I know that they lost several brothers years afterwards. And to hear that, it just crushes you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, but the research that AFSB and the help that, you know, you you talked about healing. Cause when I met Jaclyn too, I was just like out there, I want to do something. And I'm like waving my arms around. I'm like, this is the story. Here's my heart, here's what I want to do. And she's like, let's get you trained up. And people like you make a huge difference.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

And um, I'm just so grateful for both of you, what you guys do in the community. Um and yeah, I'm I'm here for it all the way. Of course. Um okay, let's go on to our next questions. Um, were there okay? Well, the next question was there are support groups, um, healing practices um that you did or or certain modalities that helped you that maybe you could share with somebody that you know had had lost.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So believe it or not, and I do not recommend this to anybody.

SPEAKER_00:

That's great.

SPEAKER_02:

That's probably not what I did, but I don't recommend this. Well, this is what I didn't do. This is what I didn't do. I again, I'm 22 years old. I lost my dad when I was 14. Yeah. I did not go to therapy until the summer of 2024.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I, and it's not that I was against it, it's just like I didn't feel like it was necessary. Um, and like I said, with my family, like seriously so blessed. Um I could say it over and over. So I just felt like I was already doing fine. Um, and then I finally I really started struggling with my perfectionism. And I um, and just like taking everything very personally. If somebody was ever disappointed in me, I mean, I felt as though like my relationship with them was ruined. I, it was awful. And how did you correlate that with the loss of your father? So when I started going to therapy, yeah, that's whenever I realized that a lot of those feelings were from that sense of abandonment that I felt. Got it. Because I was able to look at my dad and losing him, and I was just like, I didn't correlate that that was a sense of abandonment. Like I I did feel like I was being abandoned because that's my parent. Like, that's as much as I, you know, there's back to the grief thing. It's like I love him, but also I'm like so angry. Yeah, yeah. Like I'm so frustrated. And I finally was able to connect the dots that these feelings I was having about my personal life, my relationships with others, my job were all tied to the feeling of abandonment that I felt whenever I lost my dad. And I was able to untangle those.

SPEAKER_03:

And it was so And I think like I'm really glad that you brought that up because sometimes I think we don't have the capacity to go through those. How many years was it before you got into therapy?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, I was 21 when I started therapy.

SPEAKER_03:

So every every buddy's story is different, everybody's grief, you know, um story is also different in how how we deal with it. And I think that, you know, what what that reminds me of, it's like sometimes like we can't just like I was kind of the off opposite. I was like, all right, I need to get through this so I can just like move on with my life, but it was like so much to unpack that you just can't. And so I think the idea of playing and being with friends and you know, trying not like not that we're avoiding it, but that you you cannot unpack that suitcase all at one time. And nobody can expect you to. And I think that's why grief takes forever, you know.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think you two are great examples of age and the impact when the loss happens, what that looks like, that was developmentally appropriate for Jeanette to have that time to really kind of just, you know, be a kid, right? That's you she needed that. And then for you, you were older and the processing was I need to process this immediately. And I think whatever stage you're at, whatever age you are when you lose someone, I think um the response needs to be what you feel like your body needs. So if you don't need, if you're like, I can't do therapy right now, okay, well, then let's get some movement, let's go do some yoga or like let's do some other things to kind of engage.

SPEAKER_03:

We actually talked about that uh at the lunch. I did see that, yeah. Cold plunges or you know, just getting outside, taking five steps. I mean, I was the blanket on the windows girl for a while. And I mean, I lived in Beverly Hills at the time. Yeah. And I would just like call into work and I'd be like, please cancel my clients. I'm dealing with my depression. That's what I would say. Yeah. I'm dealing with my depression. Okay, Jessica, we understand. And they would give my clients to somebody else.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

My bosses were so, the salon owners were so understanding. Like, not one time did they like make me feel guilty or make me feel bad. Um, she she was just so kind. Um, and it's hard to understand like what somebody is going through, you know? And eventually I just LA wasn't like a place where I could like really heal. You, you know, you gotta be on point, you gotta watch your back. It's just, you know, and so I moved to Arkansas and it was just a lot easier to kind of like move through all that. But um, I think your story just brings so much like strength and like that there's there's hope, you know, and recovery is possible. That's what it was. Okay. I think I felt like I was never gonna recover. When I hear your story and you say you recovered fairly quickly, I was like, wow. Like, yes, your grief journey is there, but I think a lot of people need to hear that. I think they need to hear that recovery is possible. Yeah. Because I did not feel that way the first couple of years. Honestly, not until that day. It's like I rem I remember that day at the Capitol, hearing that, going, oh my God, I can recover from this. Like that's a thing. I think I came up to you. I mean, there was it was a lot going on, but I was like, wow, that's that's um, that's amazing, you know, because you just after going through the darkest of the dark, and um, you don't feel like it's possible, you know. And I think that's the same thing with suicide. It's like people just they don't think it's possible that this is going to go away and they're always gonna feel like this. But really, a lot of things in life, most of things in life that we go through are temporary, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

I think you bring up a really good point that I want to expand on. Um is that if you are not somebody that's a lost survivor, but you are an employer who has employees that are lost survivors, it is essential that you learn how to take care of lost survivors. Yes. Essential. Oftentimes we hear from, especially in big corporations, there is almost this fear to utilize the loved one's name. So like they just won't say their name at all. And and I can understand the fear there, but it really is important for lost survivors that you continue to use that loved one's name.

SPEAKER_03:

Because you want to make it more than just about their death. Like they were an actual person just like you and me. Correct. And that you never know who's struggling. Correct. Um, I talked to one of my uh board members who helps me run the social media for this, and um, you know, I I didn't know that he had lost a loved one um or a friend in I believe college. And you just, you just you don't know who's struggling. And you don't always know, you know, why people are doing what they're doing. But I mean, we all know somebody and it can just impact you in such a deep way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. And I think also knowing that suicide loss is complicated and that grief is complicated, then that gives you more insight and understanding into employees on how to take care of them around like the holidays. Yeah. The holidays are very difficult for suicide loss survivors. And so, you know, if you're noticing employees that are maybe disengaging during certain points, you know, that's an important thing to be aware of and be mindful of. Um, but then also having grace, like your employer of like, okay, she needs a minute to process through this. And then the other big call out that I think is important for people to hear is that, you know, we know through research that our lost survivors are at a high risk for suicide themselves. It does not mean that every suicide lost survivor is gonna go on to die by suicide, but it is something that is so vitally important for us to pay attention to. So these two are very familiar with this and they're probably gonna laugh when I say this. But I, every suicide loss survivor I engage with, I am really intentional about well, do you have capacity for this? Let's take care of you as a person first. Yes, I want you to share your story, but where are you? Are you in a safe place in your current journey that this feels okay? And just continuing that process of checking in. And I think employers need to be very mindful of that.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I I agree. I think that's an amazing point. And you did a really good job of that when I first met you in that coffee shop. I mean, you changed my life, definitely.

SPEAKER_02:

My um, my current employer, I do insurance. So fun. Um, it's actually really fun. Good. Surprisingly, it's really fun. I like it.

SPEAKER_03:

Hey, one of my great friends is an insurance. Oh, we definitely love it.

SPEAKER_02:

It's thrilling.

SPEAKER_03:

Shout out to Michaela.

SPEAKER_02:

Listen, Slay Michaela. Um, well, Slay Michaela. I was gonna say, my employer does a really good job. They, when I say anytime that I'm doing anything for AFSP, they hype me sweet.

SPEAKER_01:

I love that. They I love that.

SPEAKER_02:

They hype me up. I um shout out to Tara. She found out that I was on the board of directors and she sent an email to the entire company and was like, everybody say congratulations to Jenna. And I was like, that was the nicest thing in the world. Everybody in my office is so, so open to talking about it with me. I have a coworker who we kind of she didn't know my dad, but she has a family member who knew my dad, and we've kind of have some intertwined stories. And um, so it's been so good to just get to talk with her about my dad. And she, like you said, talks about him like he is a real person. Yeah. He was my dad. He still is my dad. Yeah. Um, and that's kind of led everybody else to ask me questions about him and like not get uncomfortable when I start talking about him because not every conversation is gonna be, you know, all sad. Like, I want to talk about him. Like, yeah. Sometimes it's like really good. Yes, yes. Those are good. Yeah. Yeah. That's like seriously, shout out to my employer. They are incredible about it.

SPEAKER_01:

I think that is is so essential. And you're creating a an environment where, um, in fact, what we know is that workplaces are actually an area that is kind of high risk because you think about the age that most people are in workplaces, and that's one of the higher uh age groups that we see. So talking about suicide within the workplace is really important. And part of that is not only the prevention education side of it, but it's that post-vention side of it and and really creating a community for lost survivors. One thing that just breaks me, I mean, it truly breaks my heart, is that uh lost survivors often get alienated from their communities right after the loss because people don't know how to engage or talk. And so a workplace that's willing to celebrate that will allow you to write a piece about your loss and put it within the like national email chain, whatever it looks like. Yeah, um, those are ways that you can create a safe working environment for lost survivors.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. That reminds me of something too. I remember when I was going through all that, I found out who my real friends were.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. I was in LA going to all these Hollywood parties, doing all the things, dating a really cool guy, you know. And um, all of a sudden, I wasn't going to these little red carpet parties or hanging out at Soho or Petit or Major or these social clubs.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And I noticed all of a sudden some of my friends weren't around. Yeah. And all of a sudden I became too much.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So I was like, wow, you were around when everything was great. But then when, you know, things got tough, you were gone. Yeah. And, you know, there's people that stepped up, like random people that you didn't think were really in your corner that stepped up, and you're just like, whoa, okay, thank you. Like somebody watched my dog for like three months because I could barely take care of myself. Like, thank God a Tammy. And um, little Romeo's still alive, he's kicking, he's 14. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Um, and um it's it really is a thing, you know. And I think sometimes it's because like people can't handle it, or it's triggering to them, or they just weren't that great of a friend, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

I think too, it's often people are uncomfortable. Yeah, they don't, they're so fearful. And I can I can speak on this from um experience because when I came to this position, I knew nothing about suicide. Yeah, I had researched AFSP and was just impressed with the the science and the research and that that that focus that impressed me. Um but I then went on for the first year to just learn everything I could because I was so fearful I'd say the wrong thing.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think oftentimes that's what communities, they're so fearful that they might say the wrong thing. I will say I do think there are some communities that because they can't wrap their mind around somebody making that decision, that becomes an avenue to alienate. And I would highly encourage communities that um to learn.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Just educate yourself about what suicide is, the complexities of it. Yes. And then by learning that, you will naturally learn to take care of lost survivors through that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And like you said, people get uncomfortable. I would also highly encourage anybody to like if you if you overstep, you can apologize. Oh, yeah, absolutely. If you say something that offends the lost survivor that you're talking to, you can quickly just say, I'm so sorry if that was an overstep of boundaries. Yeah. Like ask, ask questions, talk to obviously appropriate questions. Yeah, don't be afraid. Like, talk to people, like ask them about, you know, their loved one if you feel like it's appropriate. Just ask them how they're doing. You don't even have to ask about that subject, but you know, get their mind off of it, discuss something else.

SPEAKER_03:

Ask them to lunch. Yeah, they want to go for a walk. I mean, I had a couple of people like Jessica, just get out of the house. Like, come on, let me let me bring you a meal. And I was like, oh my God.

unknown:

I was like, fine.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Like, I'm so embarrassed. But you're so thankful for it now. I'm I'm very thankful for it, you know. But there's so much stigma that goes with it. Oh, that's the girl whose dad and brother died by suicide, or that's the this, or that's the that. And I was like, I'm not just that. Like, this is a thing that happened to me. And I think like sometimes people get so I want to make sure I say this the right way. Yeah. Like connected to this identity of this is who they are now. Oh yeah. And I that's not that's not me. You know what I mean? Like I feel like people still we want our own independence and we are in our like you said it earlier. Like my life just isn't about my dad and my brother who died. It's also about me. And I think in the beginning stages when we go through loss, we do make it a lot about them and we forget about ourselves. Correct. And I forgot to take care of myself. Yeah. And that was hard to climb back out of, you know. Right. So yeah. I think that's important to say. I absolutely agree.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Sure. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I think we see it a lot in the community.

SPEAKER_01:

And I'll I'll be direct and give to here's just what you should and shouldn't do. Yeah. You guys bounce off of this, but we're not asking about how they died. We're not talking about means. We're not talking about the details. Um, I don't know what it is with our human brains, but we tend to lean towards morbidity in that we're curious, right? We're curious as human beings. That's just who we are as humans. Don't be curious about that.

SPEAKER_03:

You don't need to know that it's not helpful. First thing that people want to ask, well, how did they do it? So do not ask I everybody else in person agree. Yeah, don't ask that. Do not ask how somebody died by suicide. Yeah. It doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. Yes. And it can trigger other people. Yeah. And it will cause more harm than it will good.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And yeah, you just don't need to know. There's no reason. And the other thing I would say too is um, you know, you you pointed this out, but ask questions and then I think be willing to sit in the hard. Yes. Like it may just be quiet. Silence is so yeah. Be if you can just sit with a friend and say, listen, this is hard, this is heavy, this is all the things, but let me sit in the hard with you. And one of the things I saw today in the guidebook that I was like, this is beautiful, is consider writing um either a postcard or a note or something and uh a memory or a happy story that you have of their person that died and sharing that with them. Because like what you're hearing from Jenna and Jessica is that they, you know, they talk about those things. They're still talking about their people and those happy memories too. And so being able to share that, I think can be helpful as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Kind of to piggyback off that, um, you know, I said my relationship with my dad toward the end was very strained whenever he was kind of in the thick of his addiction. Yeah. My again, my family, they did such a great job. And my best friends that knew him and loved him did such a great job of just letting telling me stories that I didn't even know. Yeah. Um, telling me stories about my dad when he was a little kid, telling me stories. My mom would tell me stories about whenever they fell in love. And it was just, it healed me so much because at that time, like, yes, I was shielded from a lot of it, but I knew something wasn't right. I knew that he was struggling. And um, there were a few times that I did have to bear witness to it. Yeah. And I just could not get those memories out of my head. And I was so thankful. So that thing about writing a postcard or just like telling somebody a good memory about their loved one, it is so pivotal in their healing journey to just remember that their loved one is so much more than whatever they were struggling with before it took their life.

SPEAKER_01:

And I could be misspeaking, but and y'all tell them correct me. But I feel like it also helps to say, like, I remember him for this person that he was, not just this decision he made in this moment. Yeah. And I think that helps your brain to be like, I not everyone who knows him just sees him as this one thing. Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Because part of you is thinking, like, oh, what does everybody else think? Like, like you said, you don't want anyone to look at you and think, like, well, that's the girl who's, you know, lost her dad and brother. And I don't want anyone to look at me and be like, oh, that's the girl who lost her dad. Like it is so helpful to remember that like their memory is not tainted by that. Right. They, their memory is still very much alive. And that is such a helpful thing to be reminded of when you are in the thick of grieving. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, for sure. You know, when we went through the loss of our volunteer, one of the things that I said to the community members when I met with in postscript was um you have a neat unique opportunity in this moment to um take her memory, her legacy, and who she was as a person. And when people ask, or when people bring it up, or when people, you know, will talk about it. One of the things that we know from research with contagion, which is when we see multiple suicides happen um in one community, is that the suicide is being talked about via rumor mail, but not in an educated way. And so communities have a unique and beautiful opportunity to talk about it in an educated way and approach it in a way that is going to be helpful and not hurtful moving forward. And and I often think of the way you talk about somebody who's lost a loved one to suicide, if their family was in the room, would they be mad? Would they be hurt by the way that you're talking about it within the community?

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely. And I think what came up earlier when we talked about grieving, um, we wouldn't grieve so hard if there wasn't something so amazing or special or unique about this person. You know, they were just like completely just like the most awful person ever, right? Right, right. Like, don't get me wrong, my dad made a lot of mistakes, but like I loved him dearly. And there were so many beautiful parts that so many other people loved about him as well. And, you know, it's unfortunate that he's not here today. Yeah. So if we didn't love so deeply, yeah, we wouldn't grieve so hard.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. That's a really good point. That is a great point.

SPEAKER_03:

In a way, it's a beautiful thing because it's like life, it just shows everyone that life is worth living. Absolutely. And that um, you know, if anyone is out there and they're thinking about it, just don't. Just don't, because the the pain that you leave people in, and just not also not knowing like how much you're loved as well. Not because I don't want to say that in a way like to guilt somebody into staying in this world, but in a way, like I don't think that the people that take their lives realize how loved they are. And if they did, and if me being here today and you being here today, us being here today can touch somebody's heart and they can feel that, then maybe we've saved one person. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think you matter, right? Yes. And I don't know, this might be you. So if I'm stealing your words, you tell me. I I feel like I read something, heard something today that was like, um, you know, my uh person died by suicide because they were convinced that they were a burden. That was me. Okay, I was like, yes, that was, but that's that wasn't I heard this. Yeah. That's the illness speaking, not reality. Yeah, yeah. You say it so much better. So please.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, so um my my uncle Ed is um the founding pastor of the church that I grew up in. And um obviously, whenever my dad passed, obviously everyone was like, get her to Uncle Ed because he has he is one of the biggest wells of knowledge in the world. Um, and he told me, he said, before your dad, which is his nephew, died, I thought that suicide was very selfish, which is still a very common misconception. Yeah. And he said, I think, and this is not correct. This feel like the way my dad felt was not true. Yeah. But he said, I think that your dad did this because he felt as though your life, me, would be better off without him because of the poor choices he was making. And I cannot tell you one that it was almost comforting to me just to remember like my dad's life wasn't bad. He just he thought he was doing the right thing for his kid, but it wasn't the right thing. And I would give anything for him to be here. Yeah, yeah. But we have to get, I feel like there's a big stigma that like people who take their life are weak, right? Or people who die by suicide are just like they can't handle life. Right. Yeah. But it's like, no, there are so many, you cannot pinpoint one reason that somebody dies by suicide. Yeah, it's so complicated.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in in my head, it's like it's a very hard thing to do. You know what I mean? Will you do my favorite? Will you grab that shirt right there and read the back of it to me? So you just you just said something that made me think, well, this is why we put this on the back of the shirt. Okay, I'll I'll read it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. To the person behind me, never give up. Life is better with you in it.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I love it. So exactly what you just said. I also felt like my dad thought, you know, everyone's life is gonna be better without me. Yeah, I'm out, kind of deal. And that's why we put that on the back of the shirt. I love it. So um, one of my friends was in Walgreens wearing it the other day, and um, he was he told me he's like, somebody tapped on my shoulder and he said, Man, your shirt just changed my life. And I was like, I love that. So it's just like you just never know. Yeah, never know. You just never know. Can I ask you one more question? Yes. Okay. Um, if you could say one thing to your father right now, what would it be?

SPEAKER_02:

It would be that this is where I'm gonna cry. Um, I just I miss him so much. Um, I miss his humor. I miss his, he was so goofy. Like he was witty and funny, but he was also just a goofball. He was kind of stupid, like like silly stupid, that's how it was. But like he was so smart too. He like, oh my goodness, what I would give to have learned how to drive with him, to start adulting with him. And um, there are so many wonderful things happening in life right now, and I would have loved to be able to share these things with him.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So if by some miracle my dad walks through my front door, I would just tell him how much I miss him and how much I love him. Um, and I would just tell him everything that's going on in life because I just there's so many times that I wish I could tell him things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And I think that's that's hard. You know, the other day I realized I was like, gosh, you know, my kid is not gonna meet my dad or my brother. Right. And like those are things that will come up and you just deal with them.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep. You've got to just feel your feelings and move on. My dad or my mom um gave me a really good, I have two, I have two ending quotes to share. My mom's quote when I was younger, because obviously I had to go back to school and um that was difficult to, you know, face a bunch of people and probably a bunch of ignorant teenagers. Yeah. Um, she was like, your feelings are valid. When you start feeling upset and it's something that you can control, she was like, put that feeling in a box and put that box on a shelf. And when you get home, we will immediately pull it down and we will and we will talk about it. I think that that taught me healthy, like coping. Yeah. You as a productive member of society, it is important to be able to, you know, if you can, hold it. Part aside. Put it aside, put it aside, do what you need to do, finish whatever you want. Unpack it in a safe place. And unpack it in a safe place. Exactly. And then my second quote is um my nana, I say this every time I share my story about my dad. My nana said something, and I don't think that she realized how profound it was when she said it, but it will stick with me for the rest of my life, and I hope that it sticks with everybody else. You can either grow through it or you can grow with it. It's like I look at grief as a thorny bush, and you can either just let it hold you back and grow around you, or you can just like rip out of it and just walk alongside it. Yeah. Because you I like that. You cannot allow, you cannot allow your loss to define you. Yeah. Or consume you. There's so much life to live. There are so many things to do.

SPEAKER_03:

Such a beautiful life to live. I think that's great. I I loved what you just said. You can't let your loss define you.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And I think for a long time I let it consume me. And finally in a place now where, you know, I feel a lot stronger. But um, I just want to thank both of you for being here. Jenna, thank you so much for coming on the show. You are so strong and brilliant and courageous and somebody to look up to. Um, thank you for having. Your strength, like I can just feel it in your energy, you know, and it's just it's so beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here, you guys. Yeah, thanks for having us. If you're struggling, remember how you think is how you feel. If your feelings feel heavy, start by shifting the thought. You're not stuck, your brain can change, so can your story. I'm Jessica G. This is the Justin Time podcast, and I'll see you next time. Until then, keep going. Never give up. And remember, the world is better with you in it, whether you believe it or not. To help reach others, please share this with your friends, family, and don't forget to like, subscribe, and donate.