Can Our Democracy Still Work? The Future of American Leadership Beyond Politics

Welcome back to the ACT OUT podcast! In this episode, host Adam Tomlin sits down with Colonel Bree Fram, former congressional candidate for the Commonwealth of Virginia, active-duty military officer, engineer, and advocate, for a thoughtful conversation about public service, democracy, leadership, constitutional reform, and creating a more inclusive future.

Bree shares her journey from military service to running for Congress, explaining what motivated her to step into the political arena and why she believes public service extends far beyond holding elected office. She reflects on the importance of leading with integrity, embracing authenticity, and remaining committed to serving others even in today's increasingly polarized political climate.

Adam and Bree dive into the foundations of American democracy, discussing the U.S. Constitution, the balance of power between the branches of government, voting rights, and the challenges facing democratic institutions today. Together, they explore why civic engagement matters, how constitutional guardrails protect democracy, and what reforms could help strengthen the nation's future while preserving its core principles.

The conversation also explores representation, equality, and the importance of ensuring government works for all Americans. Bree shares her perspective on constitutional amendments, civil rights, and why expanding opportunities for participation creates stronger communities and more resilient democratic institutions. Throughout the discussion, she emphasizes the value of respectful dialogue, critical thinking, and finding common ground despite political differences.

Whether discussing military leadership, running for Congress, or the responsibilities that come with citizenship, Adam and Bree encourage listeners to stay informed, remain engaged, and recognize that meaningful change begins with everyday people who are willing to step forward and serve their communities.

If you've ever wondered what motivates someone to run for Congress, how constitutional reform could shape America's future, or why civic engagement remains one of the most powerful tools for protecting democracy, this episode offers an honest and thought-provoking conversation about leadership, public service, and creating lasting change.

Learn more about Colonel Bree Fram:
IG @‌bree.fram
Website breefram.com
Substack

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Credits:
Mural: Tara E. @‌taradiiiise and @‌tarayakisauce

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Act Out Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Tomlin. Today's guest is former congressional candidate from the state of Virginia, excuse me, the Commonwealth of Virginia, Colonel Bree Fram. Let's roll the tape.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Hey Bree, how are you? I'm doing well, Adam. Nice to see you. Thanks for having me on your show.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

It is a pleasure. I uh as soon as I like saw you on uh on social media, I was like, I've got to figure out a way to be able to have a conversation with her.

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Well, uh, I'm looking forward to what we dive into. It's always interesting to see what direction people choose to take a story and hopefully uncover some interesting insights.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Well, uh, first we're gonna go up uh up north uh to the great great white north. Uh wait, no, that's Canada. Uh, but you're from Minnesota, correct?

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Hey, southern Canada, close enough.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

So while I said that, uh, our like some of our best friends are from Hopkins, Minnesota. And so, like, whenever I was uh, you know, I'd looked you up, of course, and was like saw that saw that you were from Minnesota, oh well, I was like just right around there not that long ago.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Yeah, uh Hopkins is not far at all from where I grew up in Mendota Heights, which is just uh across the river from St. Paul. Uh beautiful place to be from. And I really like talking about the values that I learned there and how Minnesota really showed that to the nation and the world just over the past couple months, that sense of being there for one another, uh, standing up for what's right and taking action.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

You know, I think Governor Walls is probably one of the best like figureheads for that kind of uh, you know, for that kind of movement of, you know, like moving the uh the nation forward. I found him a just a breath of fresh air all during the 2024 campaign.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Yeah, just that smiling dad figure that he is, uh, that he and his family will be coming over to your house with hot dish and making sure that everyone is well taken care of. I mean, that's the Minnesota. Uh that is the neighbors uh showing up for neighbors kind of attitude.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

What I really notice about him, and also with you too, there's uh there's kind of a through line there, and that's kind of like this uh authenticity. Like you you you know who you are and and you're you know, and you're and you're not afraid of it. I think that that is something that is very contagious. And what once people see that, they become empowered to be themselves as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Oh, absolutely. And and there's so much of what we put into the world that is reflected back to us. And when you are hiding something, when you are not your authentic self, uh, you're really unlikely to be putting that level of joy into the world. And when you put that level of love and joy out there, it's so much more gets back to you in different ways. And it is this multiplicative effect. So I hope there are a whole lot of people that have that opportunity to be their best selves, put that into the world and feel the love coming back to them.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

What I uh I was speaking with uh someone uh a couple of uh a couple of weeks ago, and in like 1970, I think or the early 70s, he had had um just like a freak accident playing uh playing football. And he uh became a quadriplegic guy, couldn't feel anything from the shoulders down. And uh like, you know, in the 70s prior to the uh ADA uh Americans with Disability Act being passed, and there weren't uh that like you wouldn't have uh like you wouldn't be able to see people that had disabilities out and out in the public because there was there was no access for people to get in. And so uh he was saying that like whenever he had first gotten injured, he was like pretty at a very, very low point in his life. Uh it was like, what in the world is next? Because he had all these plans of like what he wanted to do. And um, and he I I remember him saying that he had gotten like a list of like all the possible things that he could do, and there was just like one thing on there, and that was uh working from home and uh being basically being a telemarketer from home. Um and he said even then, I was like, I don't I don't even know if I can do that or not because you know uh quadriplegic. Uh and so it what really like kind of struck me with that was the power that visibility can have to like that the ripple effects, I guess, that that visibility can have to so many people. And I think that that's kind of like one of the most important things that we can do, especially like having a podcast and trying to grow a platform. Like that's that you know, that's kind of the goal with that.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Yeah, and it extends more than just you and your identity. It can be collective visibility too. One of the examples that I love talking about recently from my campaign is getting to know uh the Democrats in the Shenandoah Valley, very rural part of Virginia, uh, particularly in the town of Woodstock. They have, for now about 65, 70 weeks in a row been holding a protest over the interstate where they just show up every day with flags and signs, excuse me, every Saturday, flags and signs, and they are happy and they spend time one another. And it doesn't matter how many people drive by, giving them the finger or cursing at them. There's so many others that honk and wave, and they see that courage that it takes to stand up in the face of something wrong, and it is contagious. And more and more people show up every week and they want to be there. And you just being there with your neighbors can give them that kind of courage to show up, whether it's your political identity or who you are as an individual. And I had that same experience speaking at a different rural town in Virginia, where after I spoke, someone came up to me and I could tell they were struggling to get a question out. And I asked it for them because I said, Are you asking if I'm trans? And they're like, uh-huh. And they they shook their head. And I said, Well, yes, uh, I am. Uh and we made a little small talk after that, and I could tell there was something more. Uh, and eventually they came out with, Well, I think I am too. And being there for them at that point, offering to give them a hug, and at first, where it was tentative from them, and then they just held on for dear life, but had that feeling that it might be okay. It might be okay to be me and to show up even in places like this rural town. Uh, so that is super important. So we can do it collectively or individually to show up and be authentic.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

There's a couple of different directions I want to go here. Man, you making too many good points at one time. That's not fair now. Uh no, with uh, so I am uh Georgia Public Education. So I didn't quite get the like the Virginia uh geography and stuff. What uh what congressional district were you running? Uh were you originally running in?

SPEAKER_00 7:38

So I ran in Virginia's 11th, uh, but it was in the middle of a redistricting challenge. And it was those maps themselves for the new version of the 11th getting invalidated and the Supreme Court of Virginia overturning the will of our voters that actually caused me to withdraw from the race. Uh, but while I was running, the 11th stretched from the DC suburbs all the way out to the West Virginia border at the Valley.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

So that definitely an area that I am very unfamiliar with. So is that mainly a rural area?

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Yeah, well, it has uh a part of the DC suburbs, which is very suburban and a little bit urban. It is a very rural area out in the western portion of that district.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

So whenever you were out in that like very rural area, what what were you hearing from the uh from the folks there? Like what were their big concerns?

SPEAKER_00 8:34

Well, they had a lot of concerns that were similar across the district, no matter where you lived, and that was uh about healthcare, uh, about ice, about infrastructure, about data centers here in Virginia, and their use of water and electricity and where they were sited in in neighborhoods. Uh, all of these things were incredibly important everywhere across the district. Uh, one of the ones I heard about even more in the rural portions of the district was healthcare access. Uh, in one of the towns, they had just built a new hospital, but it lacked a maternity ward. And so I heard stories of babies being born on the road to the next closest hospital that was 45 minutes away. And so we started to hear stories over and over like that. Um, and extending the health care. There was one farmer that I talked to who, you know, he worked all the time, but he had to drive the county school bus in the morning just so he could get health insurance. And that extra burden, uh, in addition to the madness of the regulations that he had to deal with, where when I showed up to talk to him, he had three people there from the State Department of Agriculture helping him fill out federal grant paperwork was crazy. And this guy was brilliant. He had a master's degree in public policy, yet it took three people from the state to figure out how to best engage with the federal government uh for the agriculture subsidies that were important to his industry. So all sorts of issues uh that affected everyone, and a few that were specific depending on where you lived in the district.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

To tie your health care to a job is one of the like biggest lies, I believe, that capitalism has ever like tried to throw on the people. Uh it's absolutely absurd. Especially like in a situation like that, uh, where you've got folks that are working harder and harder just to be able to like barely afford health insurance.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Yeah, that was it. Uh and why I made universal healthcare such a big piece of the message I wanted to get out there, and how we as a party need to embrace that and go for it. Yeah, I can see pragmatic steps on the way there where at a minimum there is a public option that is open to everyone, regardless of employment, before you move towards a true single payer system, which, given our American healthcare system, is gonna naturally have opt-outs for people that have far more and can afford their own, but we need a baseline of care so that no one ever worries, is this medical bill going to bankrupt me? When we have 500,000 Americans a year in medical debt and bankruptcy where they are one surprise bill away from disaster, we shouldn't be doing that. We should be only thinking about when we get sick, how do I get better? What do I need to do to be there for my family and continue to be the best version of myself?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

In 2021, uh, I uh due to uh like just like with trying to withhold all of my emotions, like just like holding them aside, I uh needed to have uh surgery on my back. I can't believe there's negative consequences of that. You know, somebody should have warned me. But uh after the surgery, uh the uh I get a bill and the insurance company had denied the uh denied the claim. And I believe originally the bill was like over a hundred some thousand dollars. Uh and then whenever they uh, you know, like I think it's somehow like, oh, okay, never mind, if insurance signal do will be like sixty-four thousand dollars uh like paid over time. Eventually what happened? We were able to kind of like talk with them where I had to pay like I think around like $20,000 right then, or I would have to pay like that $64,000, $70, whatever it was, $1,000 over time. Now I am privileged enough to be able to have like gotten it from a retirement account. You know, I I didn't want to do that, obviously, but I had that option. Most folks don't. Right. And so then in that situation, they now would owe what, like $40,000 more just because they have less money. It's a it's a tax on on uh like on low socioeconomic means it's it's absurd.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

It it is wild. And uh I went through some healthcare scares significantly, um, and all I had to worry about because I had government-provided healthcare, was getting better. Uh, and too many people are so far away from that, where the biggest scare is the money aspect of it. And the people who are telling us that we can't have a better system are the people who are profiting off the system that exists today. They are the billionaires that never have to worry about medical care. They have their own unique boutique care that is offered to them because they are pulling in so much money. And we are, in essence, just as you said, we are putting the burden of the cost on those least able to pay it.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

And then you have hypocrites in the uh in House and Senate uh Republican uh who will say no to socialized, it's socialized medicine, that's terrible. While what are they doing? Having socialized medicine. They get free health care from the government, and they're saying, oh, it's awful, it will just lead people to being lazy, which I mean, they actually make that argument themselves, so never mind. That could be true, but it's it's just it's absurd to me, the hypocrisy.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

If you truly want to bring overall health care costs down in this country, what we need to do is get more people into regular preventative care. And that's what people avoid when you're worried about healthcare bills. You don't go unless it's truly a disaster and you end up accessing the most cost-intensive forms of health care rather than taking care of yourself today so that you don't have to get into those intensive or acute care situations.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

And it also ties back to what you were saying earlier, where folks were saying, uh, I don't have a hospital that I can go to in this county. I have to travel, you know, like however far. Uh, do you kind of do you know why uh so many hospitals are like leaving rural areas or why rural areas have such tough access to care?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Well, we're seeing that accelerate right now with uh the passage of the one terrible, awful bill that defunded Medicaid to so many of these rural hospitals, and they just can't make ends meet in those areas. And so the payment structure that works today uh just is breaking down. And so these hospitals have to close because they can't afford to pay their staff or some other aspect of their operations, and we are losing access in rural areas. You also have the issue of medical professionals thinking about what their career looks like. And can they afford to bring their families to that area? Do they want to live in these places? How can we best incentivize them to also provide care in rural areas? And what we did so often in this country is that we brought medical professionals from other countries who wanted to be Americans. And as part of the deal, they ended up going to work in rural areas and opening practices. I had one of those providers uh when I lived in rural New York. And it was great. But as we turn off access to people around the world that want to come here, that exacerbates the shortage of healthcare providers in rural areas.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

That is that's absolutely true. And I'll I'll yes, and you um I think that we can start to um invest more in our rural communities. Let's let's try to get broadband access. Um, let's uh let's do more to expand education and uh like attract folks, you know, like high uh, you know, like the the high achieving uh the doctors and stuff. They they'll want to come if you know if if you build a better community.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Yeah, a hundred years ago, we invested mightily into electrification of all the rural areas. It should be the same in treating access to the internet as a public utility and making sure that is everywhere because your access to the modern world, to the modern economy depends on that kind of engagement. So, yes, we do need to invest in our rural areas in the transportation and data infrastructure that can allow people to thrive everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

I I can just tell that you and I are like really vibing on the uh on politics. I I I figured that we were uh pretty politically aligned, but I mean, this is this has been an absolute bless so far.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

Uh yeah, it is it is always good to be able to find the people that you're like, oh wow, you you get it, and we can work on this together because it's that same collective action piece that we talked about and how people get excited when they're around their friends. And I actually found this as I campaigned, and we mentioned the different areas of the district where in the big communities like Fairfax County, where I live, you know, 1.1 million people in the county. Um, and you have a committee meeting for Democrats, and it's very Roberts Rules of Order, it's procedural. But you go out west to these smaller counties where the entire county is 40,000 people or 8,000 people in one case, and they get together and it's storytelling and it's having a meal together, and it's just enjoying being there with people who are like-minded in some way, shape, or form. And you have fun with it and you have a great time.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

That is so interesting to me, like kind of that like that difference where you have Fairfax, where I think that is like the most democratic uh county in Virginia, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Yeah. Uh it is incredibly democratic and that we are regularly electing Democrats with 70 to 75 percent or more of the votes.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Aaron Powell So like-minded folks that you just you're like, what uh who I'd never even seen a Republican before, essentially. And so like that you don't you don't even really necessarily uh focus on the community aspect. You can kind of move one step further to the Roberts Rules of Orders of like, okay, well, how are we going to get this done? And then whenever you kind of juxtapose that to the rural areas that don't have that same thing. And a lot of times you're seeing uh a Confederate flag right next to an American flag, an identity crisis, if you ask me.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

But um Oh, yeah, the the park where I spoke and had that kid come up to me was two blocks down the street from a flea market, proudly flying the Confederate flag. And so that's the environment that they're seeing all around them. And as you said, when you flip that, when you're 30 to 40 percent Democrats in in a county, they're so joyous to get together uh and they're scrappy, and they're thinking of new and interesting ways to organize and to get things accomplished that they do not take for granted.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

It seems from now, this is anecdotally, and you know, of course, the plural of anecdote is data and also uh, but it seems to me like there is a progressive movement that is starting to build in these uh in these rural communities. And uh and and folks are kind of uh whenever I I I grew up in a rural community, uh and it was just we thought that democra voting Democrat would be anathema to freedom. If you you know, if you wanted freedom, you were gonna have to be have to be a Republican. I see that now shifting to where a lot of folks are are saying that Republicans are anathema to freedom. And if you want it, you know, if you want to be free, you need to vote Democrat. And I like to see that kind of flip is really crazy for you know this nearly 40-year-old guy from rural Georgia.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Yeah, it is pretty wild how our our views of politics are shifting and and some of what we attributed to one party or another uh is moving. And we've seen that throughout the history of the country. I mean, we had the major reorganization in the 1960s, clearly in the 1840s and 50s, with the rise of what the Republican Party stood for then and how it flipped in modern times into something very different. And we're seeing that again. I even hesitate to think of the Republican Party as the Republican Party because it is truly just the MAGA cult right now that is in power. And what we are attributing to the party is really just the cult of personality around one man and his narcissistic corrupt instincts. So when we think about that, I have to believe there is another shift coming as soon as Donald Trump is off the stage because these values are so tied to his perspectives only and what he's doing to line his own pockets, that of his family, and his closest friends.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

It is going to be very interesting to see what happens to the Republican Party after Trump. Uh, because uh J.D. Vance is not dead. I you're right, though. Like the fact that Trump was able to take over the party in the first place says a heck of a lot about the state of the Republican Party in and of itself. You know, whenever he did uh I think like, I mean, and and what did he do? He he got there by um talking about uh Obama and birtherism. And so it's it's it's incredible to me that he just kind of uh swooped in.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

But where do you think Republicans will kind of oh my crystal ball is cloudy on on that one because it will be a a heck of a fight for what is the identity of a Trump list party? Uh what do they actually stand for rather than what do they stand against? And because that's the only message they put out into the world is who are our enemies? How can we uh own the libs? How can we tell you that trans people are so so awful, so demonic that they belong erased from public existence, and all your problems are because of immigrants and trans people. And it is not the fact that we are fleecing your pockets and we are actively making your lives worse economically through every policy that we implement to take care of ourselves, the billionaire Epstein class. But no, focus on hating and an external enemy that we can present for you. So what are they actually for? Just the kleptocracy, the oligarchy, uh, the people that want to continue to gain more and more power. Uh, and that is not the party that I want to be part of. That is not what I think the vast majority of Republicans actually want to be part of. Uh, but they need to be shown that there's a better alternative, that there is something out there that will make their lives better rather than giving them someone to hate and look down on and feel better only in proxy because they think that other person has it worse off.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Yep. Trump's superpower is scapegoating. He can scapegoat all day long. He will not find a solution to save his life, though. He's not, he's not interested in them. And you hit the nail right on the head at the very end, though, but who he's selling it to aren't looking for a solution. They want a scapegoat.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah, they just want to feel that it's okay because I'm better off than someone else. But instead, if we can make everyone better off, and you actually don't have to worry about things like we talked about earlier in medical bankruptcy or a surprise bill, or that your small business or your farm is gonna fail because we've destroyed markets overseas and raised input prices uh through tariffs or starting wars that drive up prices. You don't have to worry about someone else. You can focus on you and your family and living your best life. So it is it is wild that we have made it into this situation where the conditions were such that we ended up with a Trump.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Yeah. Uh Trump was the reason why I started this podcast. Um in 2021, uh January 6th, I was I I wrote his like 100th political obituary. Like there is absolutely no way he is coming back from that. But I then again, I didn't think that he was going to come back from uh, you know, the uh Access Hollywood tape either. So, like, you know, it's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

That alone, I thought, how how is this possible? How do we have this sexual predator in in the White House? How did it get to be that you can just pull the wool over so many people's eyes of who this person really is and what does he stand for?

SPEAKER_01 27:01

There was this fascinating conversation that I heard uh right before the 2024 election. And uh it was two guys uh that were discussing who they were gonna vote for. And one of the uh one of the guys was like, I'm I'm gonna vote for Trump. And the uh the other guy was like, Really? Are you aren't you worried that he's gonna try to be a um a dictator? And the other guy said, uh yeah, but he won't be able to do it. And I like kind of like, you know, like kind of, well, thank you, thankfully, not the you know, majority of the country feels that way. Unfortunately, a plurality did, though. Uh but I think that there was a little bit of a malaise in a certain uh, you know, like to a certain extent where people people saw that there were guardrails in that first term that kind of stopped a lot of his like worse predilections. Whereas they didn't realize that what he was doing was dismantling those guardrails all during the first term, and then now there isn't a whole lot to to keep him in check.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Yeah, when you install a government full of nothing but sycophants who are completely unqualified to do anything other than say yes to the boss, uh, you are going to get both wild swings in policy and you are going to get dysfunction, but you are going to get no checks on the power of the presidency. And when Congress became complicit completely in enabling that, there's only the hope, and it's not a good one, that the courts will stand as kind of this last backdrop. But in many cases, when the federal government is the one who's need to enforce the court's order, you get back to the famous quote about the Pope, and but how many divisions does he have? Referring to the troops to enforce this moral authority. And if the courts say you can't, and the president says, ah, but I can, please stop me. Who will? Uh, because it is the responsibility of the executive uh to carry out and faithfully execute the laws of the land and the judgments ruled by the courts. So we are in a really tough spot where our guardrails, our norms have really shown that they are not in a place where they can stand up when so much of the government is focused on destroying itself and caving and catering to the will of the president. And it's why one of the things I think we need to go after is not just what does, you know, this version of, say, a project 2029 look like of what are we going to do to fix the laws and do more and also help people out once we have taken back the White House? But to me, what is the big thing we need to get after? This is what does a project 2037 look like? What does it mean to look at for the 250th anniversary of the Constitution to fix its founding flaws, to put in place something that will give us another 250 years with the wisdom that we have accumulated rather than continually relying on a set of judges to reinterpret what we think might have been the intent so far ago. That document is living, it belongs to us, and it is something we can change because it is our contract between those of us, the we, the people, and the government that we have put in place to represent us, and it can be changed and it should be.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

If you can channel your inner Alexander Hamilton for a moment, if you were going to uh to to uh send forth a uh a proposal uh to the to the constitutional committee. Yes, yes, if you were in the room where it happened, if you would like to hatch a plot blacker than the kettle calling the pot, you know. Um what what were some things that you would want to uh that you would want to see changed?

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Uh would it be a completely different thing or you know, I I am willing to envision what does a constitutional convention and and a full rewrite of the document look like based on what we have, but clearly understanding all the things we need to change. I mean, but if you want to talk piecemeal, if we wanted to say, you know, amendment by amendment, what could we change? Equal rights amendment absolutely needs to be there. We need to take the work that we have done for voting rights and civil rights and make sure that is clear in the Constitution. And that is not just the work that was done in the 60s, but the work that is still to be done, like the John Lewis Voting Rights Act. And I'm reading his one of his biographies right now. And, you know, if you want to talk about a role model, that is a man uh to follow along with. Um, but uh there is also uh all the things that we need to fix on the limits of presidential powers. We need to have a modern and strengthened version of the emoluments clause. We need to make it clear that no one is above the law, even in the engagement of their official duties. Uh, we need to look at all the things that say this is how the executive needs to govern, and it truly needs to be in a way that puts the interests of the nation first, not their own. Uh, and there are a number of other things that we need to do to the Constitution that can strengthen it. But at a top level, it is equal rights, voting rights, civil rights, uh, and strengthening uh the guardrails that do exist and making sure that they are in the constitution.

SPEAKER_01 32:58

It is so bizarre to me that you would have such a like seemingly slam dunk kind of case come before the Supreme Court. Now, essentially the the question was in Trump v. Uh U.S., like, is the president a king? Um and Johnny Reb of the Funky Bunch was like, well, certainly the president isn't a god, but more than a king. Uh it's it is antithetical to everything in U.S. history. I that that pr like that that court decision. Uh it'll go down with every other decision um of this court. Is like this, it seems like uh Roger Taney is uh John Roberts' uh ideological soulmate.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Well, and there are so many other decisions that this court has made that has worked the intent of the Constitution. We can talk about Citizens United. I was literally about to say Citizens United.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

As as people, uh it it is Did you Delaware is allowing I only saw the headline, so you know you'll have to fact check me on this, but Delaware is now allowing corporations to vote under certain circumstances, apparently.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

Oh, uh I am not tracking that one. More so what I have been watching is uh what's going on in Montana in regards to their uh attempts to, because they are state chartered, remove the charter of what corporations can do from the state. And so if that gets implemented across the nation, there's a way to get after what corporations are allowed to do. Uh, but clearly there are the vast majority, or not maybe not the vast majority, but so many of them in Delaware and in other organizations. It it's hard to imagine without us implementing something at the national level that we would get there. But it is good work that we need to understand. Um, and there's another issue that I think we really need to talk about from a constitutional perspective is the right to privacy and what does that mean in the digital era? So that would be something I would also expect if we were going to revigor, reinvigorate the constitution, make it clear about privacy rights extending to the digital realm. Because again, there's no way you can have a case that comes to the Supreme Court and their original is thinking, well, yeah, the in the 18th century they were thinking about digital privacy. You know, we actually have to do the work to put that stuff in as the technology changes.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

They were thinking about bloodletting in the uh at that same time. Like I, you know, they they they had some good ideas, but they also had some batshit ones too. So, you know, like let's let's let's give some nuance here, you know? Yeah. Absolutely. What uh I'm pretty sure I know, but what is your opinion on this uh idea in the Citizens United case that money is money equals speech?

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Uh it is so problematic for our politics. And if we want to go back and you want to talk about that original intent of the Constitution and what it would mean to be a politician and to be a public servant in this country, that you would leave your farm or your occupation for a couple of years, you know, sit as a member of Congress or in your state legislature, and then you would go right back to that, and that anyone could do it. But the amount of money it takes to run right now, uh, particularly on the national level, is ridiculous. And so for me to have run, uh, and I felt like I was the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder that could even consider it. And that was because I had government-provided health care as part of my retirement, that I had served and saved enough to the point where I could afford to take the time off to campaign and to reach out to people and try and raise the money. And that was incredibly difficult, um, where millions of dollars are out there, have easy access from corporations where most people who want to run for office can't even conceive of raising $100,000, let alone a million or $10 million that it's gonna take to win a seat. And those uh original members of Congress had to run to represent 30,000 people. Now we have districts that are 800,000 people. It takes a lot of money. If you want, you cannot shake enough hands and show up enough places to convince 800,000 people to vote for you. So you have to reach them via digital media or mail. And when we think about sending someone a piece of mail that's just going to introduce you to them, well, that's probably a dollar a person at minimum to print that, to mail it in the cost that we have right now. And so you're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars every time you want to reach the people of your district. That's out of reach for the vast majority of people. But to a corporation that can come in with millions of dollars in outside expenditures, it's nothing. We need to return that power to the people.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

So uh I am uh I don't know if I told you on or off camera. I'm in Norfolk. Um, and so we're I'm in the third district. The uh second congressional district, yeah, the second congressional district is uh currently held by Jen Kiggins. And um I was like kind of talking to a few people uh in that um, you know, like in those campaigns, and that being a swing district going back and forth, I think that they were like gonna need upwards of like around $50 million to be able to like to run their race. And that is just one congressional district. I what that means is that you essentially are gonna have to be locked in your office right there, calling people all day long, saying, hey, you know, hey, this is Bree. Uh things are going really well here, and they'll be going even better once you give me that $500. And but you either do that or you take money from a bunch of corporations, and then what do you what what what are you getting in, or you know, like what are they getting in return for those donations? It's yeah, it's such a tricky thing.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Well, I loved every part of the campaign where I wasn't sitting in this chair. Uh but the fact that you have to do that and just try and raise the money to be competitive is is terrible. And how do you ever learn about policy? How are you ever listening to people's concerns and then having the time to think about what that and how can I actually make a difference? And that's awful. And because we are in a continuous state of campaigning, particularly for members of the House, uh, that they never have the time to really get after some of these issues, uh, or even to take a breath in some cases, because we are expecting politicians to always be on. And yet in any sort of leadership discussion or we talk about how do we take care of ourselves, just that message that you get when you get on an airplane, put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others. When is the moment to take a breath? Uh, when is the moment to, you know, think about big picture items when you're just forced by the nature of the system to spend time again and again and again raising money? So, what do we do to get as much money as possible out of politics? How can we implement some sort of public financing system uh without having it completely corrupted by the influence of corporations? Because if we go to public financing, but outside expenditures are still allowed, there is a massive amount of money that we'll find a workaround. So it's a huge problem. And we need people with the time and the space to think about it. How do we get after it in a really effective way?

SPEAKER_01 41:27

This has been the like first time I've had the opportunity to get to like get to know a few uh candidates that are running for office. And it's been like it's been a lot of fun. I can't wait to keep doing it. But uh one of the big things that I've noticed, um the best people, the ones that you want to, that the ones that you want in those uh seats in Congress are the ones that feel the most uncomfortable asking for money. It's it's an unfortunate conundrum that uh don't know if there is gonna be a solution to or not.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

My team, you can you can talk to anyone that worked for me on the campaign. They were pushing me and we were having fights all the time, like, you need to call this person back. I'm like, it's been two weeks on not calling them again and asking them for money. Uh and I'm like, but they're like, this is how it works. I uh it was so frustrating and so difficult to figure out the way that I could do it and and how it felt like I was just being so intrusive in other people's lives. And it felt awful. Uh, so there's a very different skill set that makes you a potentially a good campaigner than what makes you a good legislator. But if you're not good at the campaigning piece, or at least good enough, or you just happen to be uh a billionaire, or maybe, maybe a hundred million, maybe you could do it with that and you can self-fund your own campaign, those skills are very different than what you know you want to see in your legislator. And it is the rare person that has both. Um, and it's a difficult funnel to get through.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

I would imagine one of the first things we need to do is stop making political office profitable. So banned uh ban stock trading, ban, you know, like pre quo quid pro quos, like the essentially what what you want to do is make politics boring enough to where you have your where Lauren Boebert is not gonna be like, well, I can go viral here uh and you know, guy show off and do this, and Nancy Mace being performative with bathrooms. Um you know, you don't you get rid of folks like that whenever the attention seeking and the money go out the uh go out the door.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Yeah, uh I I'm of two minds on that because you don't want to make it so Boring and so unengaging that no one wants to be part of it because it is still public service. And there has to be a feeling that you are doing good. And what I want to get back to is that virtuous cycle. We can go back to Kennedy talking his famous, you know, ask not what uh your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. But that's indicative of you knowing that your country is doing good. So I want to be part of that. I want to be a public servant who is maybe not going to be rich, but is always going to be comfortable. My country takes care of me because I am doing good for my country and for the world. We are putting the right kind of energy and engagement into the world that does that classic rising tide. But it is that virtuous cycle that I know my country's doing good, so I want to serve my country. That's what we need to get to more than just, I think, well, let's make it so boring that no one wants to be part of it. You still have to have that, I'm going to be okay if I go into politics, uh, but it is public service.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Fair enough. I was I was trying to sound kitschy with the sound bite. It was it was uh yeah, no, I I I do agree with your with your point. What essentially what what I meant by boring was I I really don't like the performative aspect where uh you're just, you know, like the the Nancy Mace Lauren, but that was kind of the focus of the stuff.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

You don't want politics to be a five or a 10-second clip all the time. You want it to be substantive debate and rational thought about how do we engage from different perspectives and make policy that actually improves people's lives.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Where do you see the Democrats going in 2026 to have a uh to have a winning message with folks?

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Uh I wish I knew. I think it it has to be centered on the the long-term, the healthcare. Uh, but in in 2026, every Democrat's message is going to be about affordability and accountability for the Trump administration. And that is the existential crisis that our nation is facing right now. So holding back the worst excesses of this administration is the number one thing we have to get after. But I hope as part of that, there is the concerted effort in the next Congress to debate the ideas, to pass the bills, send them to the president, whether he's going to veto them or not, that look at what does it mean to advance the interests of all Americans and sharpen those ideas, debate them, make them better so that by the time we get to 2029 and we have a Democratic president in office, we are ready to go with all of those. They have gone through the committee process in Congress. They have engaged so many people that they are going to have just this overwhelming swell, and it is going to be passing bill, bill, bill, bill right off the bat that actually makes people's lives better. So stop this administration's worst, but do the work over the next two years to put an agenda in place and to message it collectively, collectively about how we're going to improve people's lives.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Absolutely uh love that and will concur 100%. Um I think that what I what I really like though is that the the priorities. So the first thing is the most existential threat, and that is stopping Trump. Once once we once we get that, that's that's done with uh with majorities in Congress. And then what we can do from there, though, is start getting the uh start getting the debates ready and start trying out those ideas and seeing what is going to pass. So then that way, whenever 2028 comes around, we are ready to go full steam ahead.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

Yeah, that's exactly it. Have have the plan in place so we can hit the ground running uh as soon as we have um the Congress again. And don't be afraid to take the win. Um, one of the issues I've seen with with Democrats over time is often this well, we want it to be bipartisan. And so things get watered down uh or delayed to try and get one or two Republicans uh on board. And it just isn't worth it when you have the majority to pass the issue. Take the win, show people that the policies you've put in place are actually making their lives better and give it the time to work. Because if you delay long enough, by the time you pass the item and it starts doing its work, it's too late. People have already seen no change. And so they vote for the Republicans again and bring them back in and let them continue their destruction of the government. And then they get to point at the government and say, look, government is the problem. So now we get to destroy it even more so. Um the very opposite of the virtuous cycle. They are in the downward spiral again to destroy the government so that they can put more pocket more money into the pockets of private corporations and their billionaire buddies.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

It almost feels like an in like an insidious plot, you know, like uh that Trump has it would appear as if Trump has been planning this and preparing this for like for ages, with how it's like kind of being stripped down and sold off like a, you know, like your government stripped down and sold off like a venture capital. But a lot of this seems like they're just bumbling fools at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 50:05

How can for the for the Trump Trump is almost the inheritor of this? That's what this piece of it, in terms of pointing at the government, defunding the government, claiming it's the problem, and directing that money elsewhere, that we can really trace back somewhat to Nixon and the loss of confidence in the government, but absolutely to Reagan. Uh and government is the problem. And that then accelerated and became the through line of Republican politics for the past 45 years. Uh, and Trump inherited that and accelerated that and put it on steroids. Uh, so I I wouldn't give him credit for this, yeah. Uh, but the rest of the stuff that he is bumbling through, uh, yeah, no strategy, uh, no plan, uh, and just the magic wand of just wait, it'll be better tomorrow, tomorrow that you know, 80 times the deal is tomorrow. Right. It is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

And they still fall for it every single time. It is it's incredible to me. I I don't quite understand it. So, but I kind of want to go back to something that you that we had just uh talked about where Trump has given us a pretty big opportunity essentially by making the Republican Party just be the MAGA party. So there is a whole lot of disaffected folks that are conservative, but are you know can uh considered Democrat. Like I think of uh Jeff Duncan down in uh down in Georgia. He was a Republican lieutenant governor and ran for uh governor in this election cycle as a Democrat. You have him, and then you also have Zoran Mamdani uh in New York City, who uh, you know, like Democratic Socialist uh practically. Um that is a very wide uh gulf in uh you know in values and beliefs. So how can Democrats really have a progressive platform and be able to pass things through whenever like we've got such a big tent?

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Well, I I think you do have to invite in all those people who are disaffected Republicans, uh, whether it's for social justice issues, uh, whether it's for uh classic democracy issues, how we're acting on the international stage, they need to be part of the solution. And honestly, everyone needs to be part of the solution, whether they want to be part of it or not in crafting it. It has to be about creating policies that lift up the people that are so mad and that are so angry right now. And and I experienced this just yesterday. I was having lunch uh with my member of Congress, uh, the person that I ran against in my primary, and someone walked over to him as we were leaving. Uh, they they shook his hand and said, I'm a lifelong Republican, uh, but I appreciate what you're doing. This administration is an outrage. And like, great, more of that, please. Uh so we have to take that into account as we think about how do we make sure that we are putting policies in place that do affect all of us. And I did love like the Fox News scare on Mom Donnie, where they listed, you know, four different policies that he was proposing. It's like, is this the America you want to live on? It was like free busing, affordable housing. And we're like, yeah, uh, that sounds awesome. How are you taking this as a scare tactic? Uh and we can do this. Let's do it. And let's make sure that people are able to live where they want to live and thrive in those areas. So let's keep putting out those policies. Let's have the discussion and let's have a little fun and a little laugh when they try and scare you with something that's like, but that's good. Don't you want that? Um, so uh I think there is room uh to make the case for what we want.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Another thing that cracks me up about that, like I'd seen uh an interview with Jeff Bezos recently where he was talking, he's like, raising my taxes, that's that's not gonna do that. Not gonna do that much. You know, don't do that. Uh and then kind of similar, similarly, we uh heard in New Uh in New York, well, if you look at Mom Donnie, the millionaires and the billionaires are there, they're they are gonna take flight. You know, they're they're gonna leave that socialist hellhole. And uh, you know, he's he's come into office and he has been able to get a lot of his agenda passed. How many uh those millionaires and billionaires have taken, you know, taken flight and left New York City for zero?

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Probably not many. And in fact, there's a there's a group that I I engage with called uh Patriotic Millionaires. Their whole reason for existence is to say, tax us. Because when you do, we don't even notice. It is a line on an account somewhere that someone who works for us notices, and but we don't see it. Um, you know, and they talk about what does a wealth tax look like? But what does it mean really to have too much? Is there such a thing as too much? And we have sold a dream that says, no, there is no such thing as too much, and you might get it someday. And so whenever we talk about raising the tax on the ultra wealthy, the reason it never gets through or that a lot of people turn against it is because they believe, well, someday that might be me. I might win that $1.6 billion Powerball jackpot, and then I might get taxed on some of this stuff. But no, that is crazy to think about that we need to tax that the 1% of the 1% that hold such a huge share of the power and the wealth in our economy, and they won't even notice. People often say, well, the 50s were so amazing. That's the America that we want to get back to. But what was the top tax rate on income there? It was 90%. And we invested in things like the interstate highway system. We still had big government projects because we actually got some of the wealth back into the system. That was super important. And to treat the wealthy's money differently than we treat those that earn wages for a living, when we say their capital gains tax is always lower than what it is for earned income, that's that's nuts too. Uh, so we need to be looking at rage, raising those top tax rates, particularly on the capital gains side of the equation.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

And I think that there's also this like glorification of the wealthy, where um if they take advantage of tax loopholes and they take advantage of like government um like loans and stuff, they're just good businessmen. But if a like person is on Snap or uh Medicaid or you know is trying to like just skate by, oh, they're they're they're welfare queens. And uh if you look at like what's being taken, the welfare queen is Elon Musk. It's not the personal Medicaid.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

Yeah. Uh the the story that is sold uh is so often, as you mentioned earlier, it's it's just a distraction. Uh it is giving someone an enemy, someone to feel like they're the problem and they don't pay attention to what's actually going to keep driving the growing wealth inequality uh in this country.

SPEAKER_01 58:10

What how do we, and I don't even know, I know the answer to this, but how do we talk to folks that aren't looking for a solution but want that like are looking for the scapegoat?

SPEAKER_00 58:24

I think we have to talk about the kitchen table type issues that are affecting their lives on any daily basis, whether that's going back to to the healthcare access or cost issue, whether that's the cost of gas, uh, whether that is the fact that tariffs are raising prices to the extent where every American family is paying, what is it, like $1,700 more a year on the goods that we all need to consume. Those are the things you have to talk about again and again that the economic policies of this administration are making your life more difficult. But if we do A, B, and C, we can either get rid of that, we can change the relationship that you have with the healthcare system, or we can invest in the programs and the projects that give you the roads that you need to drive on to get to work, that allow you to live where you want to live, or as we talked about earlier, that give you that broadband access, you know, in the mountainous region of uh Appalachia or somewhere else that you can still stay there and still be part of this world in a way that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 59:39

Yeah, I was very disappointed uh whenever the uh Virginia Supreme Court uh struck down the uh the redistricting referendum. Uh I thought I had like kind of gotten over it, but all this conversation has done today is make me even more upset with them. I we need people like you in Congress, and it is I I am very upset that uh we're not gonna have uh Congressperson Fram in uh in uh in in the halls of Congress in 27.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:11

Well, despite that, I will stay engaged. I I want to figure out what is the best way to make sure that we are electing a bunch of good people across the Commonwealth of Virginia, uh, that we have those policies that are gonna drive people's lives to a better state and work on those big picture items. Yeah, what does it look like to fix the founding flaws in the Constitution and improve it going forward? Um, and that's not something you do over the course of a year or two or even right after this administration is gone. That's the work of decades. And fixing what this administration has destroyed in so many ways, particularly our relationship to the world. Um, this is the work of generations to rebuild what is trust in America, both from people outside it and from those inside it. Uh, it is about restoring our faith in America as an ideal, uh as an idea, as something that drives us forward where we can be better tomorrow than we are today, be that more perfect union. Uh and so that is what I am going to stay engaged in. What does that work look like? How can I be part of it? And I can't wait to see where that'll take us.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

You know, I uh I told you I'd done uh some research on you before uh before our conversation. I didn't want to come in looking like a complete fool. Uh mixed results.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:36

Uh it's it's easy to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

But there was this one particular story that uh that that I read um about you. Uh I can't remember in which paper it was, but it talked about in that story you shared about whenever you um you came out to uh to your colleagues originally uh as as being a uh as being a trans woman. And I think that that you had like uh you had gone like to work out or something on the elliptical, like I can't believe I did that, uh which, oh my god, like I I've been in like not uh necessarily similar moments of vulnerability, but I certainly know what it's like to say something like, oh my gosh, how is this gonna how is this gonna pan out? But I love what happened whenever you come whenever you came back. Um I think that uh so whenever you came back, people came up to you one by one and showed uh trust in your leadership and acceptance for who you were. And that is the to me the definition of ready and fitness to serve. Uh and then that second part, I don't want to uh relish on it, but whenever, you know, uh Hegsith um and his hypocrisy came out with his order, that the moment where you were with uh with your equals um and you know you uh you're saying, well, according to this uh uh administration, I'm not fit to serve. I love what uh your uh what your comrades did for you. Uh and that was basically say that, or not, not with words, but with actions. Hexeth and Trump, you were full of shit. And they accepted you and and and uh trusted in your leadership even then. Uh I think that says a hell of a lot about you, and it says a hell of a lot about this shitty ass administration. Uh so I I just I wanted to kind of wanted to say that uh I I see your leadership and I can't wait to see where it goes.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

Oh, well, thank you. It serving in uniform was the honor of a lifetime. Um uh this country gave me so much, so many opportunities to do incredible things, to meet amazing people, and be part of something that I truly felt was putting good into the world. That how could I do anything else at this point except continue that fight for that more perfect union, for a better world, for everyone's opportunity to thrive?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:26

I'm just gonna put this out there now. Madam President Fram, thank you for acting out with me.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:33

It was a pleasure to join you, Adam. Thanks for having me on.