Deconstructing Religion: Kate Powell’s Journey Out of Evangelical Christianity

Welcome back to the ACT OUT podcast! In this special Part 1 of a two-part conversation, host Adam Tomlin sits down with Kate Powell, political content creator, former youth pastor, and advocate for thoughtful civic engagement. Kate shares her journey growing up in evangelical Christianity and how her experiences with faith, politics, and community shaped the person she is today. What begins as a conversation about her upbringing quickly unfolds into a thoughtful discussion about identity, curiosity, and questioning long-held beliefs.

Adam and Kate explore what it was like growing up in the Bible Belt, serving in youth ministry, and navigating the expectations placed on young people within religious communities. They discuss how faith and politics often become intertwined, the challenges of deconstructing beliefs you've held your entire life, and why asking difficult questions can lead to deeper understanding instead of division. Along the way, they touch on purity culture, gender roles, empathy, and the importance of giving yourself permission to grow.

As this first half of the conversation comes to a close, Kate reflects on how her experiences continue to shape the way she approaches political conversations today. It's an honest discussion about changing perspectives, embracing nuance, and recognizing that personal growth often begins when we're willing to listen, learn, and challenge our own assumptions. And this is only the beginning—Part 2 dives even deeper into the conversation.

If you've ever wondered how faith influences political identity, what it really means to deconstruct your beliefs, or how life experiences can reshape the way you see the world, this episode offers an honest, thoughtful conversation that will leave you eager for Part 2.

Learn more about Kate Powell: @‌kate_forthepeople on IG or https://substack.com/@kateforthepeople

Tune in every Thursday for episodes that inspire, challenge, and entertain. Whether you’re here for laughs, lived wisdom, or action steps, the ACT OUT podcast is your space to rethink growth, embrace self-awareness, and act out your passions.

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Mural: Tara E. @‌taradiiiise and @‌tarayakisauce

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Welcome to the Act Out Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Tomlin. And we have a special treat today. We have someone not just of the people, not just by the people. She's for the people. Kate.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Allegedly.

SPEAKER_04 0:17

Kate Powell. Kate, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:19

I'm very tired, but also very excited for this conversation.

SPEAKER_04 0:23

So I uh I I reached out to you and I was like, well, there is about a.0001% chance that she will uh respond to me. And then when it then, whenever you did, I was like.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Oh gosh. That was so nice. I do try to be responsive as much as possible.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

I uh so you and I we've only met one other time. And that was just very briefly at uh uh Mark Warner's uh kickoff campaign. And um and I was like, man, she is even cooler in person than she is uh than she is on her video. So uh yeah, no, just thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Oh, I appreciate it. Um I I really appreciate people like out in the real world talking um to me because I usually feel like I'm just screaming into the void, and um I think you guys are the cool ones for actually like hanging out with me.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

Anytime I get compared to a cool kid, I'm gonna accept that compliment all day long.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Take it. Bless it.

SPEAKER_04 1:25

So uh, you know, I figured since uh we have such a special guest, it's only fair that we break every like uh societal rule that you're supposed to have. And let's just get really deep on religion and politics.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Aaron Powell Perfect. Let's do it. Let's go super personal right away.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

Well, you you know, I told you that you were one of my like favorite content creators because you talk a lot about politics, which I talk a lot. Well, um to be fair, I think that's uh probably a good quality to have in a content creator. But you talk uh you talk a lot about politics, and then I didn't realize that you also kind of had the religion angle as well. Yes. And so you are Pastor Kate as well?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

A long time ago.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Uh I used to moonlight as a youth pastor, youth ministry director, whatever you want to call it, um, back in the in the before times, while I was still a bit of a conservative leaning person, so which is a whole story that I believe we will get into.

SPEAKER_04 2:25

So uh yeah, you and I kind of spoke um just a little very briefly off uh off camera, and that you said that you were born in Illinois, is that correct?

SPEAKER_02 2:34

Correct. I was born right outside of Chicago. So I'm technically like a born city girl, but I was in the suburbs, so I mean, you know, take that for what it's worth. And but my family fairly early on in my childhood moved us to Arkansas, and then we were also in central Illinois for a little while, um, back to Arkansas. My mom worked for Walmart, in case you're wondering. There's no military. Oh, okay. The Arkansas. That's the Arkansas thing. Um, and then we kicked over to Virginia when I was in high school. So I've been in the South, I've been in the Midwest, um, but in the in the belt buckle of the Bible belt, and also just, you know, generally in the South, I think it's fairly religious, you know, sectarian, that type of thing. Um, so I um, you know, have an evangelical upbringing for those of you who are looking for the word. Evangelical Christianity was was the thing, was at a Pentecostal church for a little while. I've been at other like other more like, you know, Southern Baptists, or, you know, when they started calling themselves community churches, that's is the same same thing. If you saw see a community church, it used to be a Baptist church usually. So that's my general religious upbringing.

SPEAKER_04 3:47

And then um Was your family religious?

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:50

My parents So you you like you were born into it.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

I was I was yeah, I was basically born into it. And my parents are both like previously Catholic, and then they moved over to Protestantism, evangelical Christianity. And I, you know, pretty early on in childhood would say that I was I was very bought in, very, very much believed. Uh, it was not one of those, like, oh, my parents believe it, so I guess I believe it too. I mean, I can remember as early as like six or seven being pretty, like I agree with this, I believe this. Um, the whole relationship with God aspect was really important to me. Um, still is in some ways. We I won't go down that rabbit hole right now, but um, I really truly had like a person a personal faith. Uh these are all sorry everybody for trigger warnings probably for some. Like, ooh. Um, but no, I I mean, but it was real. And as far as me genuinely believing it.

SPEAKER_04 4:51

When I went to What was the doctrine? Like, uh, so like whenever you were first like growing up into it, like what was your conception of Christianity?

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Yeah, got it. Okay, so I definitely understood it a couple different ways. So C.S. Lewis is one of my favorite lay theologians. He would be mad if I called him an a theologian because he didn't technically have formal training. So lay theologians. Um I understood the uh substitutionary atonement, which is the whole like Jesus died for our sins thing. I understood it. It wasn't the primary thing for me, though. And and quite frankly, as I got older, I became less interested in the Jesus died for our sins. And I I never really had that much interest in hell. Okay. Oh. So the whole idea, the the eschatological thing is the fancy word, but the whole like, where do we go after we die? I didn't really care that much. Interestingly. Right. And and then I I just I guys, my my mind is weird. I spend a lot of time thinking about life, the universe, and everything. And so same thesis. Um, but these are things that are very close to the Baptist church. And so it was certainly part of my whole like zeitgeist, if you will. What I was most interested in, though, was the relational aspect. Um, the whole fatherhood aspect of God was really, really interesting to me and very personal. But also the values of the like caring for the least of these. I really felt like, okay, if this is real, like if I believe this, then I need to orient my life to taking care of people who can't take care of themselves, who don't have a voice. Um, the parable, the the triplet parable of the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son. It's like my favorite part of scripture. And so those are though, like as far as like my conceptual understanding of like what is faith, it was God is father, and we're supposed to take care of people full stop. The whole, again, the whole like I want to be safe from hell thing, it really was like I knew it was there, and I would say, Yeah, I I believe that's a thing. It just was not a priority for me, really at all.

SPEAKER_04 7:00

So that is so unlike me at all. You were in the like uh it was so I I grew up in the south, uh in a in a very rural area. Uh, and around the time I I was three years old the first time uh I watched a uh passion play.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

Ah yes.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

Where they will like go through uh like it starts at the beginning of Jesus' ministry, goes to the execution, and man, they really go hard on that uh on that crucifixion.

SPEAKER_06 7:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

And I think around that time, my parents thought that I was too mature for like children's church.

SPEAKER_06 7:39

Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:39

So they had me go to the adult service. And every single Sunday.

SPEAKER_06 7:46

Fire and brimstone.

SPEAKER_04 7:47

Right. Uh well, Fire and Brimstone was like best case scenario because there's also the rapture that could happen.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Correct the rapture.

SPEAKER_04 7:55

Right now, like as we are talking. Like Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Did you read the Left Behind books?

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_04 7:59

Nikolai Carpathia.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Yeah, he's he's coming for us, guys. They're actually like really great page turners, everyone. Like if you read them as if you read them as fantasy, as fiction, they're fun. Okay. But like unfortunately, many people did not read them as fiction.

SPEAKER_04 8:13

They read them as like I was reading them as profits.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Right, right, yes. Yeah, I very much. And a lot of us were. And um, that I will say that like I enjoyed that whole thing as far as like a what if, but I really, again, I really struggled with the whole like um, oh, what's it called? The the remnant idea and the tribulation idea. I really struggled with that. Like I really was like, this is this just seems very counter to what we say, who we say God is and what we say God is.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

How did you understand the rapture to occur?

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Again, because I didn't care. I was a bit like, I don't know. I mean, I was like, sure, maybe it's the clothes are all in a pile and we all disappear in the twinkling of an eye and all this kind of thing. Again, trigger warning, guys. We're probably gonna, we're probably gonna really like it.

SPEAKER_05 9:03

I I definitely need to put trigger warnings in the right.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

Yeah, if it's not in the show notes, you're gonna get sued. Um but I I didn't like again, it was it was one of those things where I was like, sure, maybe this is it. And then I just didn't, it really just wasn't something that I cared a whole lot about moving forward. I um I will say that the one thing there was an overarching theme, and this will become clear later. Um, the whole purity culture thing, being a woman raised in this. Um, that's so dumb. Yeah. Another, another trigger warning. That did resonate with me a lot. And but I was less concerned about it in like again, the eschatological afterlife, what happens when we die thing, like, will I go to heaven? And just more like, again, if I really believe this, I should be pure of heart, I should be pure of mind and body and like all this kind of stuff. And so when I was thinking about like what is the rapture, I was more like concerned is like, am I gonna be good enough for God? This person that I love, right? Like, because again, the relational aspect thing. So it was very much like I want to please a parent. Um so that that was like kind of of all of the doctrines that that really um got its way into me, that was probably the more insidious one. Like I might have, I might have like slipped the net of like the I I'm a you know, Jesus died for my sins and I'm gonna go to heaven thing, but the purity culture thing really got its its claws in me.

SPEAKER_04 10:35

So I I am going to yes and you there because purity culture also hit me and it started a bit of um of of sexism. Right. Because purity culture made it seem like it was your responsibility to guard yeah, to to guard like my like lustful desires. Right, right. And to put the onness on you and not me, it was in hindsight the beginning of like, you know, a lot of things that I've had to understand.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Purity culture is so toxic to men and women and you know, however you identify, non-binary. Like it is incredibly like it's incredibly dangerous for everybody because, like you said, it for men, first of all, it treats you like right, like you're superior somehow, and then also somehow very inferior, that you have zero control over anything that you do. You need a woman to ensure that you remain normal, acting right, that kind of thing. What was she wearing? You know, all that kind of thing. And so it's really like for men, you're in this weird paradox in purity culture where you're like, I'm the worst. I am a horrible monster. And good thing these women are around to wear clothes that cover up so that I don't sin. And then also, but also the women are fallen creatures, eve ate the apple, yada yada yada, and I am endowed with God's power to lead forever and always, amen, no matter what.

SPEAKER_04 12:06

That actually just touched on another big thing that uh has taken me so long to unpack and the uh idea of original sin and that humans are inherently bad. Right. Uh that mindset was deeply ingrained to me to the point where uh, you know, now I I consider myself an agnostic atheist. I am still unpacking like that, even though I no longer believe in the church. And what's uh really unique there is that what it did is like for you, I would think that you were inherently good and that you were fine, you know, like now. But me, there was a sense of like deep shame and feeling like I was wrong and unworthy. Right. And so I I'm kind of curious, did you, did you kind of notice that? Like, did you have that belief first? The original sin thing in original sin.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

I I had the belief in original sin. I definitely applied it to myself more than other people. Um it sounds like we had a similar sort of approach to that. Again, because I did understand the whole loving others and serving others and whatnot really well. I think it was I needed somewhere for that to go. And so I ended up being the place where it went as far as like how I related to myself. I am a type A perfectionistic, apparently Enneagram one. I just learned that recently because some people made me figure it out.

SPEAKER_04 13:34

What's the Enneagram one mean? I'm not familiar with it.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

It's a personality test. Some people are like, ah, yes, right now as they're listening, but um, it's a personality test. It just means like the the domineering type A, super organized, uh super leader one, um, which works really well in a patriarchal situation like the evangelical Christian church. Um spoiler does not. Um but yeah, so as far, but like sorry, to get back on track, the original um sin doctrine, again, I was aware of it. I didn't because again, because I was like the whole Jesus died for our sins, I'm going to heaven or whatever. That that part is so instrumental to it. I really did not spend a whole lot of time dwelling on it. But if I spent time going, like, you know, who's a filthy sinner? Me. Yeah. This girl.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

Um probably over like the most mundane thing in the world as well.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

And I still have that. I've literally was like as I was coming here today, I had I remember this incident from like 17 years ago, easily. Easily, might have been more than that. Of just like a time where I'd made a mistake and like said something to somebody about like I thought they had made the mistake, but I had made the mistake or whatever. And I was hadn't handled it really well because I was like really upset about it. And I'm I'm like, why am I thinking about that? Just 17 years. Um but yeah, like I still, still absolutely am like, you know, still struggle with that. And, you know, my my long-suffering therapist helps me a lot work through that.

SPEAKER_04 15:10

Whenever you were kind of growing up, was there a how did religion play like into the community that you were involved in? Like was it a very big part or was it kind of distinguished?

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Um, it was a huge part because I would say growing up and then eventually as an adult too, which I'm sure we'll get into, um, religion and religious like organizations were the entirety of the social structure almost. Um by the time I was in high school, like living here in Virginia, my parents had kind of stopped attending church, but I continued to go. Oh, interesting. Right. Yeah. I I took myself again, I really believed it. And the relational aspect again being so important to me, but also the relational aspect with my fellow Christians was huge to me. And really it became the church was my community. So as far as like how it played into, you know, me having like a social life and a purpose, a place to be every week, that that was it. That was the main, the main deal.

SPEAKER_04 16:12

That is pretty much exactly like my story. Um so we're so like even after my parents like stopped going consistently, uh, we would go just enough to where like I would kind of like backslide and uh would like be like, I'm I'm pretty sure like this this doesn't seem like legit, you know? Right. And then we'd go to church and I, you know, there would be like that emotional hook. Yeah and I'd be like the altar call. Oh, I am the worst person. Recommitting my life in the world. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 16:42

Did you think uh Wow, that was a did you think? Um did you think uh like a once saved, always saved, or is it something that was a continuous, you know, you had to do checking?

SPEAKER_02 16:54

So what I did was the whole, there's a difference between salvation and sanctification. So I did believe once saved, always saved. I also believe that faith without works is dead, as Paul writes in the New Testament. And so, um, and and by the way, I would say that like now, today, that latter belief is more important to me of like, if we're going to have this set of values, we need to live this set of values. So again, though, I think because I was so unpreoccupied with the afterlife, because the whole salvation thing is all about where do you go when you die? And I was just like, I don't know, I don't even know what that looks like. I really don't want to sit here and speculate about heaven and hell all day long. I don't even know like what that means. And so I just it it was it was kind of one of those things where I was like, I'm just gonna choose not to really deal with it because I feel like we can't know a whole lot. Part of being the type of person that I am is that I am, I ha I have kind of a dual personality going on. I have actually tested for this. So I'm very creative, very open. I'm able to think about like religious and spiritual things all day long. And I'm also very evidence driven, very much like show me the proof and whatnot. So when it came to those like more speculative things, I just I was like, well, I I really can't figure this out, and so I can't really spend that much time caring. I do know what's in front of me, and what's in front of me are people that are hurting. There's poverty everywhere, there's social injustice. I need to deal with that. So like I really latch on to the sanctification part, yeah. Which uh interlays with purity culture pretty well, honestly, as far as like that kind of militant sanctification.

SPEAKER_04 18:33

It's so interesting to me that like how you focused on the relational aspect, and it was very much about following Jesus' teachings. Right. Uh whereas for me it was all about heaven or hell. Okay. And what that did though was lead to me kind of like trying to like rank myself among people. And so as you were talking about helping out the least of these, I actually desperately needed the least of these to remain the least of these so that I felt like I had higher standing.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

Yeah. I will say that I earlier on in my faith journey and my life in general, there was I'll use the word temptation again. Sorry, guys. It's all this terminology. But there was a temptation to be very much like, look how much good I'm doing. So I wasn't immune to that, that whole dynamic. I was aware of it though. I do recall being very aware of like being sanctimonious, you know, and being like, oh, look how good I'm doing. So that whole the teachings of Jesus that are like, don't let your left hand know what the right hand is doing when you're doing good works. I really did try to do that. But I did feel it, like that, that kind of like pull to be very like, look how great I am, and I'm helping people, you know. Um and so I guess in some ways the whole, the whole like you're a filthy sinner humbled me a little bit. I think, I think that's the attempts. Um, I'm not justifying the doctrine, by the way, but like I think that's the attempts of the doctrine to try to deal with like being human. It's natural in hum inhuman to rank to figure out where you fit in in the social schema. Like that is very normal. I would say it's even more human to realize that that's happening and then to surrender your power, humble yourself. Like these are all good things to do so that you can like actually have a loving relationship.

SPEAKER_04 20:36

But now that you mentioned that, I remember trying to figure out how to brag about humility and being like, I am having such a like, how is God gonna figure out I'm so humble here? Like, this is man, it'd be a lot easier if I could just tell him.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

It's a losing game. It'd be so much easier if we just developed some real self-love, but that is not really a path, I would argue, in evangelical Christianity as it stands right now.

SPEAKER_04 21:02

So as you know, I I look back now, I realize that like I was in a Christian nationalist movement. You know, um, and the main themes that like I like really kind of think about is like as patriarchy. Like I mean, there were I'm trying like it, you know, we kind of touched on it before with like with purity culture and how that kind of puts the puts the on us on the woman, but there were there was like doctrine. It would be very selective, you know, like you know, very uh I think it's uh Second Timothy that is uh coming to mind.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Which was not written by Paul.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

No, he only wrote like seven.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Perhaps, right. Like and I know people are gonna fledger comments here. Um yes, there's a lot of cherry picking of scripture. exactly one verse that says anything about whether or not a woman should like talk. It's like you know the whole be silent woman verse in 2 Timothy. And the I do not permit a woman to teach is the exact words. First of all, it's pseudopographical, which is a fancy word for almost no expert. And I mean expert, not a theologian, but like scholarly historical expertise does not believe Second Timothy was written by the historical Paul. Nobody thinks that um or 1 Timothy or Titus, any of the pastoral epistles, which is where you find actually most of the patriarchal schema for Christianity. They're like Paul didn't write that. It was someone else pretending to be Paul. And you I mean you got people who will turn around and be like well who cares if it was actually Paul like we should just and I'm like okay um well at that point we've kind of just like lost the plot. But regardless it is it is definitely a a cherry pick. It is very frustrating to listen to as a woman. It frustrated me even when I was deep in it. And I I honestly I bucked it entirely. That was definitely a part that I was like nope don't care. We'll continue to do me. That's probably also some someone who knows the Enneagram will probably be like that's a one um and but in in like all seriousness I just I the there were there were definitely certain parts that I negotiated away and by negotiated away I mean I just got right rejected even from an early age of just being like that's that's not real.

SPEAKER_04 23:37

So to me Paul seems like what he is obsessed with is getting as many people ready for the coming or for the second coming of Jesus as possible.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Absolutely I don't think he's wasting his time about who's going to preach and who's not that's the biggest when you and again there are much smarter people Dan McClellan's one of my favorites actually but there are much smarter people who can talk about at the highest level. But a very quick recap one of the reasons that the pastoral epistles first 2 Timothy and Titus are viewed as pseudopographical is because it's clearly talking about a church organism that's advanced, very well organized like they're they're thinking like second or third century, right? Paul was dead by then well long, long dead. And like you said all of his other writings point to he was very unlike me he was very eschatological. He was very concerned with the afterlife and the return of Jesus and all this kind of thing. And so he was like get ready no one knows the day he didn't write that part but like that was his mindset and we gotta just like you know don't get married don't have children don't worry about any of that because it's coming any minute now.

SPEAKER_04 24:45

Don't get circumcised.

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Right. Yeah don't yeah don't don't do any of that like don't worry like all that's frivolous and such. And so to then go from that to suddenly like you know these are the official qualifications of a pastor and this is what an elder can do. And an elder needs to make sure their wife is doing blah blah blah and like whatever that's just so it's anti-Paul. Like it doesn't it literally doesn't make any sense with the rest of his writing. So that is one a really good point that um I'm sure your comment section will be filled with people who are disagreeing. That's fine. Disagree. It's like it's not like any of us were there to to give firsthand witnesses about who wrote what but it it seems very unlikely.

SPEAKER_04 25:24

I like I went through after after I deconstructed I went through and just read um like especially the New Testament from like more of like a like a historical lens and trying to be like what was going on and was so confused why he kept writing about like circumcision. And then I realized like okay imagine you're Paul and I am a Gentile that you have just converted right and now you're gonna be like oh just one more thing that is going to stop so many converts.

SPEAKER_06 25:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:57

But that actually brings me to something I'm super fascinated in and did not think that I would ask you this. All right so uh Paul in his writings talks about going to see uh I think uh James the brother of uh Jesus uh maybe uh Peter I can't remember if it's Peter there's a couple of them and he it's basically like uh hung out with them for a couple of weeks and they told me nothing that I didn't already know. That uh so some uh a lot of apologists will say that that means that Paul and Peter and James had the same um like same sense of what Christianity was.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

Right. Do you buy that um they clearly had some differences. Um I think they probably had more in common than differences but Paul after that encounter goes off for several years to do church elsewhere away from Jerusalem away from the rest of the apostles he's clearly under the impression that he needs to be doing his own thing for a while. I think it's like three years. Don't quote me on that I might have that wrong but it's three I was thinking three years. Yeah it's a minute like he's gone for a minute doing a different ministry and it's clear that he wants to cooperate with them but he also calls Peter a hypocrite to his face in other places. So um because they were you know he was previously a Pharisee and he does kind of do this whole like about face of like I'm turning away from all of that and um you know this that's part of his conversion experience his Damascene conversion and Peter and James and and their that whole cohort, they they clearly are still very much like but we're still like Jewish and we need to make this Jewish um and there's there's clearly a difference between them. I'm not saying one is right or not. It doesn't like to me that part doesn't matter but to say that they like you can't say that they like were completely on the same page I don't think that that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_04 28:04

I 100% agree that's kind of how I rate it and Paul kind of and this is just I have a bias towards but I don't really care for Paul very often.

SPEAKER_05 28:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:14

I I I bet there is a like a writing somewhere um you know in like Greece about like the most annoying tint maker in all the land coming. But Paul to me he seems kind of like synctimonious and he's like they didn't tell me nothing.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Like I I already know I honestly think Paul and I are probably the same person. Which is probably why I don't like him very much. It's like actually I know everything and you do not there we go. But yeah no it I it's clear that he had trouble fitting in with like everyone else he was clearly different. He's a different duck and um so yeah I think again to say that it I'm gonna quote Dan McClellan again Dan if you're hearing this I'm a huge fan um but he um talks a lot about the univocality of the Bible as in there isn't a un like the Bible is not univocal because people always try to say it's like it's God's word and everybody's like everything agrees with everything else. It's like no it really doesn't and um this relationship between Paul and the rest of the apostles I think is a great example. They do not agree. He clearly has very different ideas for what should and should not be happening versus the rest of the Jewish cohort and it's it's not um I think it's probably the clearest example of like we can have some ideological disagreements but what seems to have held it together are some of the things I talked about earlier, which is what are we on this earth to do? Like what is our ministry and you know and that relational aspect with God a God you know the I full disclosure I'm still theist like I and a deist at theist like I still believe that there is such a being my relationship with said being is complicated to say the least but um your your Facebook official status or uh relationship status is complicated. Absolutely um complicated with Yahweh. Right. It's complicated with Yahweh it will probably remain so till the day I die. So and then I don't know what happens after that to bring it full circle.

SPEAKER_04 30:25

You saying the univocality uh uh kind of reminded me of uh like so growing up I I had this kind of like dual image of God where he was this and it was a certainly he father god was uh like the super loving uh forgiving God and then there was this like yes smite me almighty smiter god yes um and I think that that was actually kind of easy for me to get because growing up I felt like my dad kind of had that same kind of thing.

SPEAKER_06 31:07

Right.

SPEAKER_04 31:08

But you're saying the univocality made me realize that like actually in the Old Testament they are it it kind of smashes together uh the God El and the God Yahweh and so that's why you kind of get this like juxtaposition of the of the of the strong warrior God and the forgiving God.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Yeah and I'm gonna ski speak way out of my scope if I try to unpack like the Old Testament um version of God because there's a lot there's a lot there and it is by no means unified in how it portrays God um or God's which is a thing.

SPEAKER_05 31:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Again I don't want to go down the rabbit hole because it's not my scope of practice and um and or my area of expertise but it's certainly um there's again from the scholarly historical record there's clearly a lot of different interpretations and a lot of different conceptions of who and what God is. That's just fact.

SPEAKER_04 32:07

You said that you would uh you know that you would very much focused on that like relational aspect with God. Did you kind of have a dual image of the like loving God and the kind of like the judging one or is it more of the loving? Because you seem to have gotten a lot of the positive aspects of like Jesus's teachings and stuff and they were really like imbued in you growing up.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Yeah I sorry I think God as father as loving father was probably the majority of how I understood um so again it was male you know centric and all this kind of thing. Again now it's complicated but um but as far as like a loving parent very much that so even I didn't I didn't really see much of like the smiter except in those moments where I was like filled with self-hatred really worried about my purity like all this kind of thing. But again that was more I I felt it less from God and more like I'm ashamed to go before this loving parent like this. Like it was very self-directed and I was pretty clear that it was self-directed. So yeah I really it was it was more like don't look at me like well until I fix this. But yeah I so I I didn't the the smiting thing I didn't really see I couldn't imagine like the whole Sodom and Gomorrah thing. I was always like I don't I don't you know I don't understand this this doesn't seem right um the again the tribulation thing like I really struggle with it. I love the books again I'll I'll read them all day long as fiction but like the idea that that was real I was like that's this is like cruel and unusual and like why um that confusion would bring so much shame to me though like because I'd be like there's clearly something that's right right I'm confused right yeah um and that's usually how the church responds to you too is like God's ways are unknowable his ways are higher you know that's how you deal with anything that's like inconsistent which is frustrating. But I yeah no I I again to answer your question I I definitely focused more on God as a loving parent and I I think it probably gave me I and I and as God is a loving parent as regards to the church I viewed it as like this is a super loving place, it's a super safe place. It's where I'm safe and my lean you know I I want to be careful here to not like inflict self-blame where there isn't any my leanings towards that I think gave me a lot of rose colored glasses about the institution. And the unlearning of that was very painful very difficult because you know I it was kind of one of those like I benefit of the doubt benefit of the doubt don't see what I don't you know what don't see it don't see it don't see it until it was like blowing up in my face.

SPEAKER_04 35:13

Yeah and that is the it's the worst feeling whenever like your brain has tried so hard for uh to to get you not to see something and then it just like floods in all at once and then you can like no matter what you just cannot unsee it. You know it's uh yeah once you see it over. That has been like my like with patriarchy like once you see like just the slightest little bit it just ended. Yes. It's like oh God it's the it's the worst. Um but what I think is so interesting is that kind of like how we went at it from different paths but ended up pretty much kind of like in a in similar situations. So I was I assumed that uh you know either I was going to like trip and fall down the steps and die after our conversation or Jesus is going to come back right now. And I did not believe in the like once saved, always saved thing. I to me you like you had to be like in it to win it. Right. And so what that did is it caused me to constantly survey for signs that I was in God's favor. Right the easiest way that I could do that was by uh like knowing that I was smart. You know I was like my God favors me because I am intelligent. And so there are things that I can do and you're like wow like that is so wow that's amazing. But then on the reverse end there are plenty of other things I can't do at all. But what like what happened instead of uh like being like oh I'm really good at this thing I bet if I just like try a little harder I can maybe make a mistake but like I'll get better at this I couldn't afford to make a mistake because making a mistake meant that I wasn't saved anymore. Yeah and so even now like to this day I uh the like the things that I like struggle with like technology I am a self-identified boomer to this day the Luddite and it's because I would just I I was so afraid to get out of my comfort zone.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Right. You do have to be willing to break it right like it was a matter of like life or death like heaven and hell. Right. Yeah that um that unwillingness to um again that's like it's the salvation issue it's the purity culture issue it's the it's all of those things is very much like if you break it it's done right it's done forever you there's no recovering there's no going back from that and you can only if like at best case you can hope that God like forgives you in his infinite mercy or whatever but it's never really the same and you know it's yeah when when that's the doctrine it's very hard to like it's it's what you're this is very normal to believe this. Like it's um when I was um a youth pastor one of the things that I found myself doing constantly was focusing on like very much away from the purity culture thing away from the all mistakes or whatever and focusing more on the learning and the service and whatnot. I wouldn't have been able to tell you at the time why I was doing that, but it was in reaction to what you were just describing, which was like I did not want to put um this burden on these young people of like you better figure it out and get it together. There's nothing for you. There's no grace for you. And um that doesn't mean that like in the because I'm still who I am I like in the in the actual execution ministry I could be very exacting very like hard on myself hard on other people or whatnot. But as far as like the doctrine that I was trying to convey again I wanted like learning and questions and like let's talk about the hard stuff and then also let's get out into the community and do service and raise money for things and all that kind of thing. So that's what I found myself focusing on which I'm I'm glad of now looking back um because it you know I'm so glad that we did not engage whatsoever in like let's talk about your purity or or whatever that really wasn't part of the discussion at all.

SPEAKER_04 39:44

You saying that uh brings up my uh my favorite like favorite parable of the Bible and um I can't remember um what book it's in but um one of the uh one of the disciples asked Jesus like uh how do we uh you know like I how are we gonna have like everlasting life you know um Jesus says uh some I am going to say get away from me you don't know me for when I was hungry you didn't feed me yeah when I was poor you didn't like clothe me truly whatever you do unto the least of these you do unto me. This was Matthew Matthew the lambs and the goats yep I was going to say the goats and the sheep so uh I'm glad I didn't no goats and sheep it's the same yeah like like lambs or sheep yeah I definitely definitely knew that you got it right but yeah that is my it's my that's my favorite verse because it goes against everything I'd said before about the hierarchical like trying to what are you like where where are you in the the top 15 of all Christians you know are you are you William Lane Craig or you know like where where are you in this mix but it flips that completely on its head and the measure of greatness is what are you doing for others. Right. Yeah I think that is that's the kind of like message and the kind of Christianity that I could still get behind today.

SPEAKER_02 41:16

Yeah. That is the aspect that remains with me. Um it's one of the only things that remains with me at this point. But the idea of like what are we here for? And that um the re one of the reasons that I rejected the eschatological stuff a lot was because it was always talking about like when we get to heaven and the earth will pass away and whatever. And it very naturally to me and I think to a lot of other people and I think it's pretty obvious looking back and it's obvious even now when you look at like Christian nationalism at this moment is it's viewing this earth as a disposable whatever.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Like dirty rags. Correct.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

And um that is a horrific way to relate to the like the literal earth itself but also the people on it. And I simply cannot get behind that thing. So I'm like look if you believing in heaven leads to that then there's something wrong with this whole heaven thing. Like I don't you know um I'm all down for you know you believe believing in an afterlife what that looks like none of us know because none of us have been there. But but if you being so preoccupied with that has caused you to be blind to what's in front of you I I really can't I really can't get down with that.

SPEAKER_04 42:32

That is one of my biggest objections to to religion um so let's say uh let's say you and I are like best friends and I and we're gonna be I I'm I'm putting us on a friendship arc but let let's say we're we're best friends and um I still um like I steal a pack of gum from you. Well I or I don't know I'll push you um if um I'm gonna be more inclined to uh ask for forgiveness and like show that I am like you know like there's more of an instance of me wanting to do that so long as I like try to seek you out. But if I'm if I'm a Christian all I need to do is ask the big guys right yeah and I'm good with God.

SPEAKER_03 43:16

Exactly do I really need Kate to forgive me like if the the She's not in charge of it.

SPEAKER_04 43:22

Yeah exactly I I know the dude who wrote the rules I I don't like that and then spiritual bypassing is a fancy word for this yeah and and the like you kind of hit the nail on the head earlier with the spiritual bypassing of like the issues here. You know there are so many things right uh that we could be doing right now. Yeah but like why do we need to focus on that because it's going away in just a couple now. Yeah in just a couple years we have eternity though.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

Right, yes exactly.

SPEAKER_04 43:51

Which this is actually super fascinating to me that the show The Good Place uh actually made me think of this. But The idea of eternal pleasure or you know of whatever, like for heaven, is sort of oxymoronic. Yeah. And it kind of goes against the human experience.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:16

So to speak.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

It's a bit cloying. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:19

Like uh have you ever seen The Good Plays?

SPEAKER_02 44:21

I haven't. I've I've seen scenes from it and whatnot, but I've never actually sat down and watched it. Not because I think it's about I'm not a very big TV person, so it's just it's mostly just a uh you like you're a foster parent.

SPEAKER_04 44:32

I think you're also like raising kids of your own as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

Uh foster parent, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:37

So yeah, I you've got plenty of things going on, I'm sure. But it was um like Lu Lisa Coudre was like uh was in heaven for this step episode, and everybody was just so bored. Right. She was like, we've been doing this for like 927,000 years. Like you can't you you can't just constantly have that. Um but to reverse that, it's incredible to me that it was so easy to think of like a finite crime would have an infinite punishment. Like, you know, like burning in hell forever would like totally made sense.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

Right. Yeah, right. It's like totally, I mean, you I I try not to get too into my comment sections because on social media, because why? But I I did see something yesterday because I was posting about the latest um ice murder in Houston. And someone said, well, you know, if he was here illegally or whatever. And I was like, why? Where is this execution is an acceptable response to something that is the equivalent of a parking ticket, which by the way, immigration infractions are civil infraction. They are the same as you getting a speeding ticket or a parking ticket or not taking your trash to the curb on time or whatever, whatever, like those things that you can, you know, it's it's not a it's not a violent crime. It's not it's not actually criminal. The whole they're criminals thing is so strange to me.

SPEAKER_04 46:16

And there's a net positive that comes out of it as well.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

So it's it's like immigration is complicated, like any wicked problem is, but it's it's yeah. But to look at an individual and act like that's a net negative on the country is very strange. It's a very strange thing. And this whole, like, well, you know, they were they might have been doing this thing wrong, so therefore we execute them. It's the same thing with like the the couple who was running out of the Walmart. We execute children now because their parents were running out of a Walmart, didn't realize that death was the penalty. But if you look at the roots of what we're talking about, it's actually not weird to these people. They're uh, because by the way, the the Venn diagram is maybe not a complete circle, but very, very tight Venn diagram of the Christian nationalist with the the hardline conservative. And, you know, it it makes sense in that worldview of like, well, you know, it's good enough for God. You screw up, straight to the bad place, right? Um forever, always. Um again, I'm a big C.S. Lewis fan, and uh his work, The Great Divorce, was the closest I ever got to caring about what happened in an afterlife because he very much painted, and I'm not, and I'm not saying it's completely correct. Again, no one's been there and can't come back that I'm aware of, so it's not like we know. But I love the way he portrayed it of people who want to be miserable and lonely and cut off from people, that's hell. And they will remain there because that's where they want to be. And you can't actually convince them to do anything else. And it's less about a time, you know, an arbitrary time that no one but the father knows and like that kind of thing. Um, and more about a like a choice by the human. Um, there have been I have been places here and overseas um where I'm like, this is hell. Uh when Alex Pready was shot in Minneapolis, I was like, this is hell. That's hell. Like watching that on video, I think was so visceral for us because we were like, that's hell. Like this cold-blooded murder out of nowhere. And the more you learned about it, the more you were like, This, we are in hell. And um and again, that's the closest I've ever gotten to being like caring about what the quote unquote afterlife looks like. But I'm like, we I think we experience true, like great pleasure, great joy, and everything, and also things that are like this this can't be, you know. And I think what what I will say for spirituality is that there is clearly something in our humanity that rejects one and and pursues the other, right? Like it's uh unless there's like a significant psychological illness going on, you're not chasing those hellish things, right, right, and rejecting joy. Um, and even then it's like that chasing is like somehow gotten tied into joy and it's you know it's a disorder. Like we talk about it that for in those terms for that reason. But like most of humanity has a clear preference. Um, and so I I think that spirituality is a great way to understand that, right? And to understand our preference and understand what we're like leaning towards and whatnot. Um I don't think it's great for predicting the future. Like it's I think it that I think that's the part that where it gets off the rails, and that's where you end up with people who think, oh, well, if he was not with legal status and he was perhaps running away, even though it doesn't look like there's even evidence of that as far as this Houston case is concerned, that that like literal death is is justified. Oh, okay. I guess, you know, like examine what you're saying, please. But I don't have much hope that people who are talking like that are examining too much of anything.

SPEAKER_04 50:18

It is so fascinating to me how you described hell as cold.

SPEAKER_06 50:23

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 50:24

And because that goes obviously very much against the like fire and stuff, but as you were describing. Yes. I mean that that is I I have chills like talking about like that that like that really blew my mind, but you're absolutely correct. Uh to I I'm I'm not like a like a hard materialist or anything. Like I'm I'm not like rejecting spirituality. It is at the like I have just I've seen what spirituality can do whenever it's been like bastardized and really taken advantage of. So now it's led me to the point where like I really have to see evidence before um, you know, like before I kind of like go over to that. And me trying to explain that made me completely lose my train of thought on where I was going there.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

It's totally, but you know, I mean like that um the horrors that we've seen from how religion and can co-opt spirituality, because they're not the same thing, spirituality and religion are not the same thing. Um, but religion can co-opt it, it can also organize it into a really destructive thing. Um, it can also be used for good. Yeah. It to me is a tool for understanding our world. And you can use it in a positive way or you can use it in a negative way. It's like the internet. As someone who was on the internet way too much.

SPEAKER_04 51:47

Um I have literally made that analogy the other day. That's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

Yeah. It's it's um it it's truly like we we are meaning-making creatures. That's what we do as humans. So it's perfectly natural to try to figure out like, why are we here? Why did that happen? Yada yada. And so between science and spirituality and um and everything else, I think we can continue to like be in community with each other and solve problems and like all this kind of thing. But yeah, it's when you you take that thing and you start weaponizing it that it's like, now we have a problem. We need to, we need to address that.

SPEAKER_04 52:24

I I don't know what just made me think of this, but like uh as I was like growing up and do a lot of like the the men's events and stuff, and it was there was a very specific thing that a man was supposed to be, like in the uh growing up in the church. Uh it was the the head of the house, uh the the spiritual leader. Um and there would be this like imagery of like lions. Like there would always be the the the lion. That was like the the thing. Yeah. And now like looking back on it, it actually makes perfect sense that the lion would be the symbol of a Christian nationalist man. Like, think about a lion pride.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:11

Who does all the work?

SPEAKER_02 53:13

The lionesses.

SPEAKER_03 53:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 53:15

They hunt, they take care of the cubs, and they keep the lion the the the guy in line.

SPEAKER_04 53:22

What does the guy do? He sleeps and then gets super defensive at the slightest sign of a threat.

SPEAKER_02 53:28

Mm-hmm. And makes babies. Yes. Right. But that's that's what he does. Right. And it's it's very um, it is, it is because they they're using like the lion of Judah and like all that other kind of imagery. Um, but yeah, when you do know how lion prides actually work, it's like interesting that you that you view this as like this is the ultimate whatever, where I would say like a male lion is usually one of the most useless animals out on the savannah. Um and the like you said, the lionesses are are doing most of the work. But like I definitely I I think the whole the to very briefly go off on a gender tangent. Um, because I actually wanted to go there. Oh great, let's go there. Um so when it comes to like gender and spirituality, especially when we're talking about like evangelicalism, it's like we've done such a disservice to the entire thing. There's like this beautiful spectrum of how men, women, non-binary show up in the world and we get the best of all of it. And if you if you pin an evangelical Christian to the wall and say, Is God a man or a woman? If you pin them to the wall about it, they will begrudgingly, reluctantly, like while choking, admit that God is non-binary. They will. They will say, they won't say non-binary because they're afraid of that word, but they'll say he's neither man nor woman. They'll say he. You know, like like, but like literally, he's neither man nor woman. God is neither man nor woman. So they understand. Sort of. They there's at least a part of them that realizes that they cannot say that God is just male, because that's not true. And when we say we're made in his image, his um, that we have to admit that like there were two like two parts of creation according to the creation poem in Genesis. And you know, that's like but again, the way that those two poles, I guess if you want to think of it that way, show up and the spectrum that's between, I think is like actually very divine, very beautiful, very indicative of like a creator, a a master artist who was like, look at all these different things I can do. It's like so like a master painter, right? They have, you know, red, blue, and yellow, but then from that, they're able to create infinite whatever. Um, or a master audio engineer that used to be an audio engineer a million years ago. And, you know, someone who can take any number of instruments, songwriters, musicians, whatever, shove them into a room, and a one-of-a-kind thing comes out. The it's so interesting to me listening to people who ostensibly say, I believe in a creator, a creative process that created all of this. Fine, I'm down with that. Um, what in the world makes you think that such a being would be like, Yes, I'm actually only satisfied with a man who um wears baseball caps, no offense, um, and goes goes to sports ball games and lifts weights and right no offense thing. Right, yeah, right, exactly. And um wears only pants and like all this kind of thing. And a woman who only wears a skirt, only cooks at home, blah, blah, blah. Why do we think that an infinitely loving, interesting creator being is only able to do those two things? That's very strange to me. So that that to me is like one of those like if you try to to marry those doctrines together, they don't make any sense at all. And it's also just like we have a bazillion, billions of human beings walking around that show us that that's not how it works. It's very like it's it's you talk about evidence. It's just very self-evident. Like you have to really just turn off your brain and your eyes and your ears and everything else uh to remain there.

SPEAKER_04 57:39

It's uh as you were saying that, it made me realize I did kind of exactly what you uh like what you were talking about, where um uh the patriarchal church will put in two, you know, there's man, there's woman, and you just said there are a bazillion examples of things that don't fit.

SPEAKER_06 58:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 58:01

I took that as they were wrong. That bazillion examples, the uh you're wrong. You need to be in one of those two two areas.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

Well, and that's part of the whole, like, well, it's a fallen world and we're all sinning, and like, because we're all outside of God's intended purposes. And if we just got back to those intended purposes right there. And, you know, again, if it's like if there was evidence that being outside of those boxes led to hell, right, led to the hellishness that I was just describing earlier, I could get with you. There is no evidence of that. There is evidence that you imposing that causes the hellish circumstances. There is no evidence that being gay, being bisexual, um, being, you know, non-monogonous, like all those kinds of things leads to hellishness, the the hellishness as I was describing, the isolation and the loneliness and and whatever. Um, that then that those things of themselves. We have been studying this for a while now, and there are more people studying it more often, and every single time they come back with like, it's not really that confusing. The societal expectations are what cause the trauma and the difficulty, not the thing in and of itself. When the thing is just left alone to do the thing, like whatever that is, when the life is just left alone to live its life, it's fine. You know, it it really it's it's about you know square holes and round peg, round pegs and square holes, however, however it goes.

SPEAKER_04 59:33

And what's incredible to me is like we it it's completely backwards. Uh, you know, like as you're saying it, where if we embrace our differences, right? If we just live and let live, like um very libertarian uh you know thing, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 59:49

Like if but you know, for some reason they don't know a lot of Christian nationalists claim to be libertarian, and yet you're very interested in controlling everybody else.

SPEAKER_04 59:56

So well, because libertarian means freedom for me, for me. That's kind of the biggest.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

Sorry, libertarians. I know some of you are really mad right now, but that is that is something that happens.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:06

So I what I think kind of frustrates me the most with that like binary uh thinking is how much I missed out on. Right. Um, and actually this is a very, very good example um of that because before I'll say like pre-therapy, like therapy is kind of like my like religious conversion.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

Yeah. Oh no. Same. My psychologist has had to uh have and continues to have several conversations with me about spirituality religion. But anyway, go on.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:43

So pre-therapy, I would have not been able to even like reach out to you in the first place because um there was a it was a more overt thinking uh for me because of the way that it was doctrined, but like women were not supposed to be better than men. And um, you know, like you um I forgot to look at your follower account. You have a lot more followers, maybe probably like 25 or maybe 30 times more followers than I do.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

I have no idea, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:17

Yeah, I I mean I'm just making up numbers. Um, which is like actually a testament to where I am, because usually I would have been able to tell you before. Uh but what really like impressed me about you was uh watching a long form uh conversation that you had with uh with Elizabeth Dempsey Beggs. It was oh god, it was it was so good. Um and after that was after that was over, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna give it a try. But or uh, you know, give her a try. I want to uh try to message her. But uh before then, I would have seen that interview and it would not have like it wouldn't have been like a oh my god, like that was so good. And be like, nah, she's it's not she's not that good. She said um there. Can you believe she used a killer?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:11

I get that in my comments all the time. Stop saying um, and I'm like, um. I'm gonna say it more now. Anyway.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:19

I would have assumed that if I had the like hundred thousand uh followers and I had the like conversation with the like with the big candidate, that that would have like made me whole. You know, that that would have like validated me. And seeing you do like seeing you do the things that I want to do would have shown like how like strong and secure you were. And all that would have done was just reflect back every single insecurity and weakness I had.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:56

And like looking back now, I can actually have like a little bit of a sense of pity for myself in that situation. Because in that moment, like when confronted with your strength and my weakness, me getting stronger was so far out of the question. You were gonna have to get weaker in order to correct this imbalance. Right. And what that did, or what that would have done, is made me completely lose out on a very cool conversation, but also a lot of learning opportunities. So now, and this is so long-winded, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:36

No, it's totally fine. I'm I do this all the time. I wind up questions for my people sometimes and they're like, oh my gosh, we'll get to the point. But I'm not feeling that way at all.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:44

No, let me preface this with I went to Oglethorpe University, a D3 school, and we were terrible at sports. If you were to ask us who our like rival was, we would say Emory. If you were to ask Emery who their rival was, they'd be like, who the fuck is Oglethorpe? So keep that in mind as I say this.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:05

I'll keep that in mind.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:06

I see kind of you and I as sort of like in the in a league of like long-form conversations. Okay, let's just say that that's a thing. I look at us now though as being in a like zero or in a non-zero sum competition.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:23

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:23

So I can watch that interview and be like, oh dang, that was really good.

unknown 1:04:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:31

I bet if I asked a question like that, or if I like did a segment like that, I bet like I could get better. So then like all of a sudden you having a great conversation, which is you know a win in your book gets me to like get better.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:48

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:48

And if I can get better, yeah, I consider that a win.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:52

So then all of a sudden your win becomes my win too.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

Exactly.