Love & Life, Sorted
A Cambridge PhD sociologist's intimate, no-BS talk about love, family and everything in between.
Join Dr. Sandy To, marriage and family sociologist and author of the acclaimed book, China’s Leftover Women: Late Marriage among Professional Women and its Consequences (Routledge), featured in TIME, CNN, BBC, and more, for no-BS conversations about the stuff that really matters: dating as a high-powered career woman, finding a marriage partner over 30, who's doing the work in the marriage, what's the catch on motherhood and fertility etc.
Whether you're single and skeptical, married and mystified, or parenting through chaos...Let's sort life, one chat at a time! ✨
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Love & Life, Sorted
Know Your Personality, Find Your Perfect Match: MBTI Guide to Love, Relationships & Compatibility
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Are you ready to truly understand yourself—and finally find someone who just gets you? In this insightful and heartfelt episode of Love & Life Sorted, Dr. Sandy To sits down with her friend Dr. Kevin Tsang (bus culture expert by day, passionate MBTI amateur expert by night) for a deep, relatable dive into the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI).
Together they explore how the four key spectrums—Introversion/Extraversion, Intuitive/Sensing, Thinking/Feeling, and Judging/Perceiving—shape not just who you are, but who you naturally connect with in love, friendship, and daily life. From the energizing (and sometimes draining) realities of social batteries and introvert hangovers, to why Intuitive couples often form such profound bonds through abstract conversations and future dreaming, this episode reveals why some relationships flow effortlessly while others hit the same recurring clashes.
Sandy and Kevin share personal stories, including their own relationships, the unique joys and friction points between different types (like the classic F/T emotional vs. logical dynamic), and practical wisdom on appreciating differences rather than trying to change them. They also discuss rare personality types, gender patterns, and how MBTI can become a powerful, fun tool for self-discovery and flirting with potential matches.
Whether you’re single and seeking compatibility, in a relationship wanting deeper understanding, or simply curious about why certain people click (or clash), this conversation will leave you inspired to explore your type and those around you. You’ll walk away with fresh insights, empathy, and maybe even a new way to spark meaningful connections.
Discover who you are, who you’re meant to be with, and how to build more harmonious relationships—one personality letter at a time.
#MBTI #MyersBriggs #PersonalityTypes #RelationshipCompatibility #LoveAdvice #IntrovertLife #IntuitiveVsSensing #SelfDiscovery #DatingTips #PersonalityTest #CoupleGoals #RelationshipExpertInsights #SociologyOfLove #MarriageTalk #LifeFulfillmentMethods #MarriedLifeConversations
🔑 Key Topics
- Introduction to the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) and its four core spectrums
- Introversion (I) vs. Extroversion (E): Social energy, recharging, and introvert hangovers
- Intuitive (N) vs. Sensing (S): Why this dimension is crucial for deep compatibility and communication
- Thinking (T) vs. Feeling (F): Emotional expression, conflict styles, and practical relationship tips
- Judging (J) vs. Perceiving (P): Planning vs. spontaneity and finding balance as a couple
- MBTI in real relationships, friendships, and dating
- Gender differences and rare personality types
- Using MBTI as a tool for self-understanding and finding your ideal match
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Hi everyone, welcome back to Love and Life Sorted. I'm Dr. Sandy Toe, and today we have a really interesting topic. It's the MBTI, which is really a trend right now. The Myers Briggs personality test to learn more about who you are, what's your personality trait, and who's the best match for you in terms of partner. And today we have a special guest with us. It's Dr. Kevin Zhang, my friend from the UK. Hi, Kevin! Hello, Sandy. Great to be on. Yeah, Kevin. Okay, so yeah, Kevin got his PhD from the University of London, Goldsmiths College, and he is a bus expert. He studies the history and culture of buses in the UK and Hong Kong under the supervision of the legendary Mike Featherstone, the king of postmodernism. But Kevin has another. He's not gonna be talking to us about buses, maybe another time, right? But today he is gonna share his expertise on the Myers-Briggs personality test, like the MBTI. He is like an expert on that. All his friends go to him for advice. Yeah, so uh don't be too modest here because you are an amateur expert. Right. Yeah, yeah. Yay. Okay, so Kevin, um what is this uh MBTI uh about? Like this is a a huge deal now, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean I didn't really expect that to be a huge such a huge deal because when I first got in touch with this test, I got introduced to this test by a Canadian friend during my exchange actually in Copenhagen, you know, a decade ago. And uh instantly it, you know, just hopped me on because it's so powerful in explaining yourself and other people. So I think, well, a lot of people would see MBTI as sort of not scientific enough or whatever. So I think like because Sandy and I both of us have an academic background, so although we do sociology, but I mean in psychology, you know, MBTI is sort of marginalized, or they even sort of dismiss it because they think it's not scientific enough. Is it comes from you know Kao Yong, which is also you know Freudian, which they don't do anymore in academia, unfortunately. But then, well, because we're both you know sort of outcasts of academia, and we don't we don't care about this, and I we just think you know, MBTI, I I think MBTI is so intellectually inspiring. So I think it was is a really great fit for Sandy's podcast, especially it's about you know sort of relationships and all that, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Compatibility between couples, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, or even friendships. So I think MBTI is so useful explaining yourself, like who you be friends with, who you become, you know, partner with, um also how how you you know sort of behave or you know the people you dislike or like on in everyday life or in your workplace. So I think it's a very powerful tour. So today I think probably we we have a brief introduction to this and with real in relations to you know relationships. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I'm so looking forward to like getting to know these types more. Yeah. So first of all, let's talk a little about our types first. Yeah so uh I don't know if like the the uh everyone knows, but like, well, first of all, the the most important thing is either you're an introvert or extrovert. Yeah. Like the first uh what are those called? The four categories?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so like yeah, I mean I probably I mean I would think a you know spectrum is quite a good word for it because I think like if you do your test, like um they will always give you um and a good test will give you the percentage on on those spectrums. So so there are four spectrums, right? The first one is introversion, extraversion, which is actually when I was doing my preparation for this podcast, is also the first you know category that Kao Jung has established. But this test is not entirely from Cao Jung because somebody else, which is you know, my bricks, they is it's a mother and daughter, and they sort of pick this up later and developed it into the MBTI. So, so the other spectrums are then you know developed also based on Jung's sort of uh cognitive functions. But I mean, without going you know too deep into that, I think let's talk about the four the first the four spectrum first, right? So the first one is introversion, extroversion. The second one is either you're on the side of in being intuitive or you're on the side of sensing, right? So we explain more about that later. And then the third one, it's thinking or feeling, right? And then the fourth one, which is the last one, it's um judging or perceiving.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Okay, so first of all, we're both in like I people, like we we call them eye people.
SPEAKER_00High energy eye people, I would say. If you our audience can tell we are so hyper in things, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's so funny. Although we're like introverts, you know, quote unquote, we're like I, like we're introverts, but we have like a high energy and like uh we are not like typical what you think, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And like we have a very vivid inner world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Imaginative.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. So what's the contrast between someone who is like like an introvert, I, and an extrovert E?
SPEAKER_00Right, that's what that's a very great question because I think nowadays, because I think we are experiencing quite a hype in MBTI recently in society, you know, you know, both Western World and Asian. And a lot of people will just say, oh, I know MBTI well read about MBTI, but they will say, Oh, you know, I'm an I person, I'm an E person. But well, that is just one component of it as we as we have as we talked about. And I think this is first, and then the second is I think there's quite a misconception about, you know, extroverts, I mean introverts necessarily being sort of socially withdrawn and sort of you know not willing or able to connect with people around them at all, which is sort of completely wrong. So this one we we we we really need to talk about it because I think the gist that we all need to understand is about the energy management, right? So it's about how you manage your social energy. So so for extroverts, I mean, they gain energy from being with people, right? For introverts, you know, contrarily, we sort of gain energy from spending time alone. So that's the the most significant um difference between an introvert and extrovert. And and subsequently, it doesn't mean that introverts are unable or unwilling to connect with people, they just need a break afterwards, they need to recharge the social battery. And then there's like also a term called introvert hangover. For instance, like maybe say, for instance, I would go to academic conferences, and a lot of time you'll be required to meet lots and lots of people that you don't know. You will need to socialize, you will need to go to conference dinners, and then a lot of time you will it's just straining for me. So, and that's the biggest sign that you are an interest. Although I really connect with those academics quite well, I would say, but afterwards I will probably need a whole week to recharge.
SPEAKER_02So that's the thing. Oh my god, that's so accurate. You know, same here as me. Like, I I don't mind like going to like a huge party or something. Like, I do have my fun and I do talk to so many people. I socialize with so many people and I'm like take so many pictures and I'm okay. Like people think that oh, I'm so outgoing and everything, but it'll probably take me the whole weekend to like spend alone to reach charge. And then at night I I can hardly sleep. Because like I'm always like replaying it in my head and trying to like get over it. So for some people, maybe they're like, oh, I'm gonna drop dead, go home, drop dead after like a hangover. For me, I'm like, oh my god, I can barely sleep because my mind is still buzzing from all that like uh socialing socializing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right, yeah, yeah. I I've known that I I you know for for me, like I I'm really not into these things for like very often. I can't do this very often, or else I'm just gonna go mentally crazy. Like sensory overload. Right.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right. But for the con like the converse case is the opposite case is the the extroverts, like they thrive in this environment. Yes, they can do this every day.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, so they will feel draining for spending time alone, and they will actually go out to gain energy to be around with people. So I'll say for instance, I have a friend who, you know, she she lives in the US now, and then when she comes back to Hong Kong, and well, she would just go to bars and meet strangers and get so energized by this. So that's the kind of difference, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. People are just wired differently.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I, you know, I just cannot imagine that case for me. Like, that's totally opposite of me.
SPEAKER_00Me too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. So your your parents as well, you say like another good example. You're they're both academics, right? But they they they like socialize differently. Yeah, their circle is like like very different, how they choose their like social circle. Social activity. Yeah, yeah. Like your dad is extrovert. Yeah. Right. But you just said like he.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so for instance, so my my father, you know, he has a you know like research team of you know 40 odd people. And then what my dad really enjoys is to go and have uh team dinners. So he would, you know, sort of get a big place, get everybody together, not even you know the current staff, but those who have you know resigned and moved on, they would he would ask everybody to come back and take a look at the button, yeah, and then they would sing Kawa K. And that's how he he sort of you know energizes it. But for my mom, for instance, so she also has a you know has a group of maybe research assistants or you know, post-grad students. And my mom would actually prefer just meeting a few of them for you know a quiet cup of coffee, a cup of tea. And I think my mother is also, I think another thing is that maybe introverts would might prefer sort of one-on-one relationship, one-on-one friendship. So like introverts would speak more and be more involved when the group size is smaller, right? And then the extroverts will just well, extroverts can be involved in in small big group sizes, but I think for introverts, definitely, if the group size grows bigger, they will just shut up. Exactly, right? Yeah, so that's one of the key differences. And I think a lot of times if we talk about relationships, we we think about, you know, so whether you know that couple has would would have you know um quality time together. And some somehow I would also think, you know, extroverts and extroverts combo will make them, you know, sort of like their life would be surrounded by different groups of friends all the time. And then uh for you know, but for then for introverts, I think the introvert-introvert combo is quite interesting because like myself from my own experience, if you do introvert, introvert combo, I think one of you will sort of naturally be take the take sort of take the lead to be to to get on the role of maybe arranging some you know social gatherings for your partner. Because I think yeah, this element is what we think about, you know, uh extrovert and introverts get together, uh they form great relationships, whatever kind of combo, like extrovert and introvert, introvert, introvert, extrovert, extrovert. But I think if you are both introvert, then one of one of you will sort of take the lead and do the social stuff, and the other, like the other person will just remain more reserved as he likes.
SPEAKER_02Right. So that's the case for you and your partner.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You're the one who takes the lead.
SPEAKER_00I think so.
SPEAKER_02You're more sociable comparative to your partner.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, for me as well. Like, my husband's also introvert. Like me and my husband were we're the introvert-introvert uh combination. And thus, you know, we're we're very alike. Like we we like to, you know, um be more like alone, spend a lot of alone time, a lot of family time at home. And I think like, so so who's the one who actually initiates? I think it's our friends are the ones who initiate. That's the interesting part because we have extrovert friends. And it's funny how like um for us, we we rarely are the ones who are like, hey, let's get together with whoever. It's usually like they are the ones who take the lead. And like a lot of my really good friends in in college, uh in high school, they're all extroverts. They're the ones who always pull me out of my shell. So this like same thing for me and my husband. We have friends who are extrovert extroverts who will pull us out of our shells. Like, whereas us we're just you know waiting for them passively.
SPEAKER_00Well, okay.
SPEAKER_02Interesting. Yeah, so that's how social relationships go.
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's great to have both introverts because then I think you're really more focused on your own relationship. So you have to really have just had lots of quality couple time together, which is a great thing for a relationship, I would say.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, enjoy each other's company. Exactly. Okay, so um great. Let's move on to the next category. Like that's the key category that you were talking about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I'm the most interested in talking about this category of the intuitive or sensing category.
SPEAKER_02So that's like uh that's represented by it's either an N or an S.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, N or S. But it's so interesting because nowadays, as I just said before, people are so you know, you know, having a hype of saying to people, oh, I'm an I person, I'm an uh E person. But what what do don't you think we don't hear people saying, oh, I'm an a proud N person or S person. Never, never, because I think this is sort of the you know the deeper level of this whole MBTI thing. I think and this intuitive and sensing category, it's I I would say is quite a key determining factor of you know compatibility of relationships. I think I first discovered this by myself and my partner. So for instance, and even the the person who introduced this MPTI test for me, so so that Canadian girl, I mean, she's an INFJ. And I think one of the very interesting things about MBTI is that I actually, you know, just search, I research about, you know, how, like what kind of people are most interested in MPTI itself, per se. And I think what I've found is the IN types, which is the intuitive uh introverts being most interested in MBTI. I think it also explains it quite well because I think I think it's the IN people who are most uh curious about yourself, right? Why you you guys I think IN people is sort of reserved and a bit quirky, you know. I think we tend to be the the kind of people who are most interested in personality tests. And so I think it and then and then it will just sort of determine what kind of um conversation you have, for instance, like how you talk what you talk with your partner and even pushing it backwards, how you flirt your partner, things like that. So if you if you immediately get into the sort of deep, um abstract, you know, quirky, you know, imaginative conversation, it will just turn the I and people on. So I would I I think that's a great great point. And so so I I sort of develop this um this not argument, but this this this um the thing that I have in mind is is the um intuitive tend to get naturally get attracted to another intuitive. And I think this is also proven. So I think uh when MBTI is getting more of a hype and getting more prop popular among the public, so there are also some companies, for instance, like a lot of people might use dating apps for for relationships, but um, so I I have uh a uh company that I saw online that specifies they use MBTI as a key indicator to match up people. And when I was just looking at their website with the successful cases, all of them happen to be intuitive. So, so I mean, all of these cases, so I think it proves two points. It proves, first of all, is the intuitives, especially introverted intuitives, that are the ones who are very interested in MBTI first. The second point is that it's really just if you're an intuitive, you would naturally be attracted to another intuitive, and and therefore, as a result, the successful matching cases in you know relationships.
SPEAKER_02Ah, okay, yeah. It's an interesting um hypothesis there. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So what about the other type, like the sensing type, right? The opposite sensing.
SPEAKER_00So Yes, exactly. So I think so, first of all, maybe I think maybe it makes sense to go back and talk about, you know, sort of what they actually stand for, right? That's what that's what we're talking about. So first of all, I think um in so this component is a key determining factor of compatibility because it affects how you talk about things, how you approach things. So you you whether you share the same or kind of a compatible lens of looking at at things in life, right? So I think um what what I I mean what I see is that many relationship experts also agree is that the optimal compatibility occurs when partners share either you know both sensing or both intuitive preference. And this means you naturally speak the same same language, and conversely, having sort of um complementary preferences for the other three letters, like introversion, extroversion, the I and E, you know, the judging, perceiving, J and P, you know, they are more you know providing the balance for the relationship and prevents mutual blind spots. So, but then for the N and S is really how you get attracted to each other, is how you approach things. So, for instance, um the S people might focus more on you know practical, specific, you know, present focus uh discussion, for instance. Or you you might like to talk about your household issues, things like that. I don't know because I mean we are intuitive people and from our own experience, so intuitive partners, couples will talk about abstract ideas, right? Talk about conceptual things, talk about possibilities in the in the future, uh, as well as you know, more of a full picture understanding of things.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. So you mean like the sensing people, the S people, they're more like factual, like yeah, they they like facts or present they think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're more drawn to facts, more of present and even past experience. So they would rely, you know, on previous experience to think about things. But for intuitives, we're more inclined to think about future possibilities, even the unproven things. Right. We like to sort of envision the future, and especially so and if it comes to relationships, then oh, you know, we like to envision our sweet, you know, future together. But that's not probably not what SP will do. S people will focus on the present or what we do now, let's fix the light bulbs and things like that. I'm not sure, but yeah, yeah, things like that.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right, right. So practical issues, or like, do we have did we pay the tuition fees yet? Exactly, this kind of thing. Yeah, well, maybe like the the intuitives were like, hey, let's think about our next holiday, something like that, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, just in general, talking about the future, you know, brainstorming different things and get sort of energized by talking about, you know, whatever that comes to mind and that are, you know, intellectually engaging. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay. Yeah, I see, I see how like intuitives like us, like we're not really drawn to people who always talk about like practical things. Because sometimes we tend to be more imaginative.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And somehow I think there's also a thing that I would come up with is sort of an intuitive pride. Because we we we just somehow, okay, maybe my partner would say, you know, if we if we ever meet some friends together, I I would tell my partner, oh, I've just met an an S person and what? Can you can you really communicate together? And I think this is really true because um it's really like if you if you if you an intuitive person comes in you know together with an sensing person, you will often find clashes, for instance, um a sensing person would just sort of question like why would you be talking about ungrounded stuff? Right or things like that. Intuitive people will also think, aren't you so boring to be always thinking about you know, you know, details and uh practical matters and well it's not like intuitives are not practical, but I think intuitives don't really focus on just the practical details. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02We're you know, we we also talk about um tuition and bills and yeah, we do, but we don't dwell on it. That's the thing. Like we we move on, you know. Okay, if that's settled, we that's that topic is over. We go On to more enlightening things. Exactly. About the future of all the people.
SPEAKER_00So I'm I I do apologize if we we have offended some of the sensing people because they might also be they might as well be interested in MBTI, but I mean as statistics would show, you know, it's really sensing people are also in I think also in my experience, sensing people are tend to be less interested in MBTI in general. Like for instance, I would mention MBTI to most of my friends and even people I I nearly met. But I think a lot of time I will encounter sensing people say, oh, why would we be doing such tests? Like we we don't need such a test to understand ourselves, it's not even useful.
SPEAKER_02But I think it's not scientifically provable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, things like that. Something that they would like to do.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, but intuitives would be sort of very interesting. Like I I I've had multiple experiences of you know introducing MBTI to my intuitive friends, and they were like, it changed the the the whole world.
SPEAKER_02Oh it's like me talking about astrology.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02Definitely, like the people who are interested in it are all intuitives.
SPEAKER_00Oh, we can do Enigram as well, right? Enigram is another personality test. Maybe we might do it in the future. Yeah. But I I was introduced to Enigram by my partner as well. So he so my partner is naturally interested in this kind of thing as well. Right.
SPEAKER_02The nine personality types.
SPEAKER_00Yes, that's the nine personality.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, of course I've done I've done all of the personality tests like out there.
SPEAKER_00Right, all right. Yeah. Because you're just curious about understanding yourself and others. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02And I think people who are like reading up on spirituality books, you know, learning about themselves, like that's like my core interest, really. Like the way that you you need to learn about yourself before you can actually learn about the world. Like that I think that's my perception.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, I'm global. My my husband is also an uh intuitive as well.
SPEAKER_00So you found a you're you found a right partner.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, or else he wouldn't be like talking about astrology with me. Yeah, and he wouldn't have immediately done the test that you sent him.
SPEAKER_00Right. Fantastic.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Cool. Okay, so yeah, okay, so this is like a key component, this category, uh, whether you're intuitive or sensing, that's the key category for relationship compatibility. Like, especially for partners, like whether they're like uh drawn to each other or something, whether they can communicate, right? Like know, like uh have like similar communication like in each other's worlds, like whether they can actually tap into each other's thoughts and worlds, like that's like the key component.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. 100%.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so uh what about like uh let's talk about the third one? What about feeling versus thinking?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so this is the third component, right? And I think this is more like um it first of all, it has a quite a clear gender difference, I would say. Statistics would show a clear gender difference, like with clearly. So so let's talk about what it stands for first, right? So the T, which is which stands for thinking, um, T people tend to be more focused on logic, logical consistency, for instance, and for feeling-driven people, they are more you know, focused on values, value-driven, more empathetic, and they sort of prioritize emotional acknowledgement before problem solving, whereas you know, on the opposite side, the thinking people will will tend to sort of solve problems directly. So I would say um this component is sort of um uh a source of friction for for couples, but it doesn't mean that you know a T person would tend to go better with this with also a T person. Because I think like for a T and T combo, what you end up is you you you might have you you like the good side of it is you have less of the drama, right? A lot of people get into the to a relationship for all the drama. And I think for two T persons being a couple, you have nothing of that. Unless you are in your immature version, maybe. But two, you know, it's sort of the the avoidance of sort of this emotional nonsense for T people, right? But then I think for for F people, like if you you're both F, you'll you know, probably have more of these dramas in your relationship. But but okay, so for I think if I if we talk about this as a key source of friction in relationships, it actually doesn't even only apply to like the like love relationships, it's also with friends. Like it also sort of directly affects how you think about like as sociologists, we we all we always talk about you know social issues and all that. But I think the TNF component actually directly affects how you view society, your views on politics and all that, which which funnily enough, I mean I think as adults we we learn to not talk about politics, not talk about religion in social gatherings. But for you in terms of your your partner, you you you you you have to have these you know talked about, right? Otherwise you don't even know whether the the person is compatible. But so I think the sort of source of conflict would be, for instance, the F people, right, they they they can feel attacked by you know thinkers, the T people, for being harsh, being selfish, being uncaring, and for for T people, they would they they can feel sort of intimidated if their F partner is sort of more emotionally driven and and having sort of less logic when when when they experience sort of emotional instability. So but I think after all we need to understand that it's just a different sort of as Sandy said, how we are wired, and it's also a different communication style and a different way of showing care. So I think I Sandy and I we we sort of had a discussion before this, is that I would use sort of words like, oh, this thing is useless. This thing is meaningless. But after after a second of thought, I would think, okay, this is a very T person kind of thing. Like for Sandy's, like for instance, if you want to say something, if you want to present something that is say, oh, this is this thing is meaningless. What you're doing is meaningless, what you're doing is useless. How would you frame what how would you frame it as an F person? Maybe you can talk about it.
SPEAKER_02Like we're much more tactful. Because like we're really good at thinking like about other people's feelings. Right. So would I be sort of offended if I heard that? Yes. If someone called me meaningless and useless, you know, what I was like. So I would I would phrase it like, okay, so I think most people won't do that because, and then I would, you know, explain a little bit so that people don't get like uh their their feelings hurt or something. So it's a I'm I'm good at that, you know. Uh whenever I, you know, reply to comments or something, I always think about the other people's feelings and uh put myself in others' shoes. That that's what I would do. So uh if I hear like those really blunt sort of things, then I I would get offended. Like I would sort of invest some emotion into that. I would take it personally. Yeah. So what you said was so accurate about like the clash, the only clash between like this the couple that is like an F and a T. That's exactly me and my husband. He is a T. Like he is much more blunt, like very sort of like you. He would just say it, you know, like so uh yeah, don't do that. That's like useless. And then I was just all offended and you know, emotional and stuff. And like, yeah, don't say that, you know, call that meaningless, you know, useless, you know. Uh and then I I'm like uh like an F person. So that that is like the only component, the only category that we have, like that is different. Like I and I I am an INFP, and he is an IN T P. So the F and the T is our sole source of clash.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. So that's the sort of source of quarreling. And I think this aspect is really the most obvious when couples quarrel, even friends when they quarrel. This the T and F is really the sort of key source of it. And I think a tip that I can give to our audience when, especially for the T people, when you just don't know what to say. You you you must have said something of offensive to your partner. But if your partner is is offended, then the next time, I think what what you do is say, for instance, we all encounter difficulties in our lives. And I think T people, like if if our partner comes back to us and says, Oh, I have such a problem, I think a T people, a T person would naturally just go into problem solving. They you they would advise the partner what you should do. But sometimes your partner, even another T partner, you might just need some emotional value, or you might need just need some emotional support. And I think a tip that I can give to our audience is is uh physical touch. So, like I think some of us we talk about love language. I think when when thinkers we don't know what to say when our partner comes to us with sort of some some emotional drama that we might not expect. I think just a hug, some cuddle would definitely help ease the whole thing out, even if we don't know what to say and we might have said something offensive.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. Very good advice, totally like a hug says it all. Yeah, okay, okay, yeah, okay. I should tell my husband that. So he doesn't get all, you know. So we don't go into that whole like argument again about him being insensitive. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Right. So the next category moving on is the last one, right? Like the fourth one is either if you're a perceiver or a yeah, judging person. Right, right, right, right. Okay, so it's uh you're either a P or a J person. Yeah. Okay, so what does that have to do with Right?
SPEAKER_00So I think um I actually quite easy to tell for this one, it's that J people, the judging people, will want to make decisions, you know, quickly make decisions. It's more decisive and like to plan, right? So they like to make advanced plans and they would feel insecure if you know plans are not in place, and with a sudden change of plans, they will also feel sort of offended or or um insecure, right? And for the P the perceiving people on the opposite, they would want to keep options opened and sort of respond to situations as they develop. So I think this is a very interesting thing when you say, okay, when you're with your partner, if you're both perceiving, then I think it can get a bit chaotic in things like if you if you both don't don't plan for things, then some like if you say, for instance, the first thing you get married, you're going to get married. So if you have both perceiving partners, you can never get your wedding planned because wedding is about is a is about planning, right?
SPEAKER_02Okay, but that was that's me and my husband, though.
SPEAKER_00We're both oh yeah, yeah. Do you encounter problems in wedding planning?
SPEAKER_02No, we hired a planner.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that's just that's the solution.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we can't be bothered to deal with those things.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but yeah, so I mean, yeah, so I think this two components is quite um you you can immediately tell as well, because like a person who is always open to options will definitely be a P. And I think it's it's it's more it's this thing, I think it can be a source of crowd as well, but obviously it can also be sort of complementary. So I would say uh having a T uh sorry, having a judging per and a perceiving person as a combo would actually be quite a healthy one. That's you, yeah, yeah, and if you yeah, so and but then if you have both J, then you might also have clashes with different kinds of planning towards things and things like that. So so yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so for instance, like you and your partner, you are a P and uh your partner is a J, right? So obviously your partner is a planner.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I think um what I want to say is um MBTI is not about erasing yourself, it's about becoming a more mature version of your type. So I think I mean a lot of people would think um MBTI is uh is uh is something that you know as you grow and mature you will you will move to another type, which is not true, right? A lot of people because I think per perceivers will sort of be considered as less mature because they just don't prefer to plan things. But I think to plan things is something society actually looks for. Say, for instance, when we were young, since we were young, our schools, our parents would would tell us, well, you have we have to plan for our lives, we have to, you know, have sort of uh a goal or something. But then I think for perceiving people, we we just don't have it. We just we just don't necessarily think that is quite useful because our our our goals, you know, our our attitudes towards life, we would we will tend to change as as we grow and as we mature. Go with the flow. Yeah, so I think but then it's a lot of people would perceive perceive but would perceive perceivers as less mature, which is which is actually not true. I think as perceivers, as we mature, we we of course we tend to also respect people who plan. Say for instance, if our partner is is a j is a J person, then well we we tend to appreciate them for you know planning for us, like you know, doing the our travel plans, doing you know, the you know, plan for you know our financial finances and the family and all that. So we tend to appreciate that, but I think and uh uh judging people in turn, they would tend to appreciate that plans do change. And it's also a bit kind of fun to uh have uh keep more options open, especially say if we travel, then we will have different, you know, unxpected encounters all the time. And so if we are more open to options instead of sticking to all the plans, then life can get a bit easier and a bit more fun. So I think healthy couples with a you know J and P couple, then I think that's a good thing to to remind yourselves about.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right. Like, yeah, one important thing you said was appreciating each other's differences and what like they bring to the table. Yeah. Right. So like the the perceivers, like they're more spontaneous, yeah, embrace like the spontaneity of them. Uh like it's more fun, you know, they're not restricted in any way. Um, but um in turn, like they would also appreciate the the judgers, like the the J people for being like really good at planning so that their itinerary, you know, is is more in place and their their their their plane tickets are there and their passports are all there and their hotel bookings are secure. Absolutely. It's it's when I go traveling with my parents when I was young, like I just feel so secure because like especially my mom. My mom is like typical, typical Jay. Right. Like a very good planner. Like she has to make sure everything is fully booked, every single meal is booked. Wow at certain times, and like every day there's like we we have somewhere to go for dinner, you know, we're not starving to death, you know? Yeah, so she's like not spontaneous in that regard, you know. And then she she would get offended if suddenly like I wanted to like say change the plan. Like I said, oh, like let's cancel the reservation. I suddenly see this restaurant, like um, there's there's uh seats there. Like, why don't we try that instead? I rarely do that with her because she's like so like set, you know, like in her plans. Like she doesn't like to change. And she just feels insecure if that goes on. And then she would like maybe scold me for that. And she would make a big deal out of canceling reservations, which for me is just very normal. If I find something better or I suddenly feel like I want something else, then I would just change it all. Like, you know, uh just call and uh cancel the reservation and just go somewhere else. It's like very normal for me and my uh my husband as well, luckily. Yeah, you know, if he were like my mom, then I'd be in big trouble. You know, like uh so so it's good. Like some when we go traveling, we I think we make some bookings, we maybe like just 20%. We we we make some restaurant bookings, like just uh uh having like a secure, you know, some form of security there, but then uh the rest of it is just spontaneous. We'll just like eat whatever.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, I think also one of the key differences I think between a J and a P say for your weekends. So I as a per perceiver, as a P person, I just definitely hate my weekends being booked up. Like I was saying, okay, my weekend is my own time. I probably this is also one of the introvert things. The introvert perceiver, I was saying, okay, a good weekend is a is a weekend without any plans. So I can decide what I need I want to do depending on my mood, depending on what time I get up, depending on the weather and and many other things. And then I decide on what to do. And this is what makes me feel alive. But then I think for J people, for instance, on the on the contrary, they might prefer having plans, otherwise, they just don't feel secure and they just think my weekend would have been ruined if I didn't plan anything. So I I so sometimes I I also advise my friends not to you know ask me out on weekends because I reach I it's really more relaxing for me to have no plans at all.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I see, I see. Yeah, like maybe not plan something with you, like hey uh Kevin, uh let's have lunch at one o'clock at this restaurant, right? Something like that. But is it okay if they suddenly call you up and say, hey, do you want to join us? We're like having a pop up. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. So that's a different story.
SPEAKER_00And say, for instance, if we don't know what we want to do, so if we if I just say, Oh, my friend wants to meet me on Saturday, and then we I was like, okay, just let's let's just meet up somewhere, and then we just decide as it goes, so go with the flow. So whatever it is we want to do on the day, then we just spend the whole day together. And I think that that that works for me, but if we need to go to dinner at six o'clock at that place, then I would be like, Don't ruin my weekend. Yeah. Put off by that.
SPEAKER_02No, you know, like there are exceptions, unless uh, you know, sometimes um for public holidays or weekends, like you can't find places and you're you're just gonna be stuck like with nothing to eat. Like that's a different story. Like that then you start to appreciate the person who actually made a reservation.
SPEAKER_00That's true. So we yeah, so after all, we just tend to appreciate the opposite of ourselves, but we don't we don't want to just force ourselves to change and sort of become more mature by planning or whatever, but then we also appreciate what what others do do for us. I think that's the key thing, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Ah, I know it's like such a such a luxury to like sleep until whenever you want and not have to wake up at a certain time.
SPEAKER_00But I can guess, you know, like we are both pee persons, but I can guess, you know, J people can set an alarm clock for for weekends. I can guarantee you that.
SPEAKER_02Ah, yeah, yeah. But sometimes, you know, if you have like kids, you're sort of forced to plan because they have activities. Like for my son, his activities are all on Saturday. We we made it all on Saturday, so that Sunday is like free. We don't have to worry about that anymore. So we're forced to like wake up at a certain time on Saturday to bring him to this and there, you know, and then but our Sundays are freed up, you know.
SPEAKER_00I think you just brought Sandy, you just brought up a very, you know, curious point for me as well. Because I was just talking to a friend of mine who is also an INTP, who is a m who is actually also a mum. And I think what she told me about the struggle of being an INTP mum is that she gets scolded by her husband for getting late to all her son's activities. So she's she wants to decide on things last minute, but then when you have kids, for instance, you have everything booked in, and and she she just hates doing that, and um her husband might find her wasting money to getting late to the classes and all that.
SPEAKER_02So I think her husband is obviously not like her, right?
SPEAKER_00Probably a J person. Right, right. Might be, but I think that's quite an interesting thing. I think I also read some some articles saying that what MBTI type is the less like less motherly figure, say for instance. And I think INTP is indeed the less motherly figure. So I think maybe you can invite my friend to become your guest one day to talk about the struggles of being an INTP mom. Yes, for sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But so what about INFP? That's me. Am I also not very motherly?
SPEAKER_00I think you're better because you're only not good to organize, you know, these act these you know, planning things for the kids' day offs or summer holidays and all that. But at least you're having, you know, you're you're uh an F person. So I think at least you're more sort of empathetic to kids' feelings. But I think like I and T like T people in general, they might just really not attune to the kids' feelings, like like animals as well. Like I'm not an animal person because I don't have that sort of empathy for you know little things and all that. So and I think I think that brings us also to some fun facts that I just search about, you know, the gender differences or whatever in in MBTI. So the first fact is that the NFJs are the rarest male personality types, which which consists of only 2.8 of the male population. So I think well, this is definitely probably something in the West in Western societies, but I think it still applies because I think FJ people tend to be. You know, sort of the carer, you know, they want to care for, you know, the family, the group. So they're the natural sort of caregivers. But then for men, you can is it's quite not a masculine temperament thing. So and and on the opposite side, I think the ENTJs are the rarest female type, which consists of only 1.5% of female population. And the INTJs are the second rarest, which means the NTJs are least represented in female. I think it's also quite you know telling because it's just you know the NTJs are just very strong kind of persons, you know, they are very logical, they tend to value, they they tend to be leaders, you know, like very strong masculine kind of personalities. So I think that if if that that they are women, then it's naturally sort of divine from the you know feminine temperaments. So these are the gender differences that we we can think about and yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Maybe like is this like very high-powered female leaders? They would be like ENTJs or INTJs.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we would do have that maybe like say maybe Margaret Thatcher, she might be an ENTJ, I don't know, but but that kind of people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Ah, interesting. Yeah, totally, like, totally tough, like uh embodying the very masculine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the Iron Lady.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right, right, right, right. Okay, so uh conversely, like the more emotionally attuned ones, NFJs, like they're more like embodying feminine qualities. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's definitely like a more gender-specific like scope to this for sure. Sure. Yeah, yeah. That's so interesting. Yeah, so can I ask you? Uh if we want to find like our perfect match, like the partner that's compatible with us, so how do how do we go along with this? Like, how do we know if they did the test or like do we just like give them the link, like WhatsApp in the link, and ask them to do the test?
SPEAKER_00I think it's also if you wanna if you wanna flirt somebody, I think that's actually quite a good start, say for, especially for intuitive. I I'm not sure about the sensing guys, like sensing people, the sensing folks. I I think like I I think it's quite like you can immediately begin some kind of conversations once you know the type. And I also think it's sort of fun to guess people's types because I think when you get familiar with with MBTI sort of as a thinking tour, so you can really try to guess people's um MBTI. And I think I have well I once have an INFJ friend who got into MBTI because of me, and she she told me she would make a list of people like around her, like the 16 types, she would just put each name into each category. And sometimes I think from Sandy's strategy, we always go back to the people we know to find a potential partner. I think that is also quite a good strategy. I've I I've been listening to Sandy's podcast, and I was saying, okay, actually it's a good thing if we if people want to find a partner, then they can list out the personality types and see which one which which which person around them that actually might be a match and who is single, and you can just talk MBTI with the person.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, chances are this being such a trend now, they would have like they would know about it, or they would have done the test, or you could just send them the link and do the test.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there I check quite a number of free links on online.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right, right, right. Okay, that's such a good idea. Like a really good conversation starter. It's really like astrology. Like, uh as I said, like to get to know the person's personality to see if it's uh a good match for you. Okay, so thank you so much, Kevin, for sharing your expertise. Like I learned so much about that too. My pleasure. Okay, so uh, well, you guys heard it. Uh, I hope uh everyone can learn from it and then go check out your type if you don't know it yet, and to well, get familiarized with the four categories and see what everyone around you is and try to like find a partner uh who's compatible with you through that. Absolutely. Right, right, okay. Thank you so much for being here. Remember to subscribe to Love and Life Sorted so you don't miss an episode. And hop onto our IG page and follow us on IG so you can see more fun stuff. And if you haven't subscribed to my free newsletter, I urge you to do so so we can continue our conversation outside of the podcast. Okay, so see you all next week. Bye.