The Nourished Woman with Keri Marino

The Truth About Trauma, Yoga and What Actually Heals with Liz Albanis

• Keri Marino • Episode 45

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What does trauma-informed yoga actually mean — and does all yoga heal, or can some of it hurt?

In this episode somatic yoga therapist Keri Marino sits down with Liz Albanis, Australian yoga therapist and host of the Yoga for Trauma: The Inner Fire of Yoga Podcast, for one of the most honest conversations this show has had about trauma, the body and what healing with yoga actually looks like.

They cover what trauma really is beyond the dramatic version, why not all yoga is created equal for trauma recovery, the red flags to watch for in yoga spaces, what a genuinely supportive practice actually feels like from the inside — and where these two experienced practitioners see things differently.

If you're looking for an honest, expert take on how to heal through a yogic based approach. This one is for you. 

- - - 

Ready to put this into practice? Here are some next steps. 

Come Home to Your Body - free somatic yoga practice for women

->https://kerimarino.eo.page/comehome

Daily Devotion - 21 day structured therapeutic home yoga practice 

-> https://www.kerimarino.com/daily-devotion-21-day-program.html

The Nourished Woman Sanctuary - on-demand and live somatic yoga for women ready to feel wildly whole & free

-> https://www.kerimarino.com/the-nourished-woman-sanctuary.html

If this episode resonated, share it with a woman who needs it and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. 

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Want to find out more about Keri and Liz?

Connect with Keri at https://www.kerimarino.com/ and @the_nourished_woman

Connect with Liz at https://www.lizalbaniswellness.com.au/ and @lizalbaniswellnessau

SPEAKER_02

Welcome back, ladies. Today I am sitting across from Liz Albanis, and she is a senior yoga teacher and a yoga therapist from Australia. She is the host of the Yoga for Trauma, the Inner Fire of Yoga podcast. And I connected with Liz in a unique way. I get several people that reach out to me and want to be on my podcast. And I have to be really thoughtful about who I bring on because I'm really wanting to curate a certain kind of energy, a certain stream of consciousness here. And as soon as I read the pitch for Liz, I was like, oh my gosh, instant yes, let's absolutely get you on. I think you and I will have a great conversation. And so I'm excited to see where our talk together goes today and what our listeners are going to get from our time together. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00

Hi, Carrie. Thanks for having me. I'm really looking forward to this. And thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's going to be fun. So, Liz, to start our conversation, I want to know what is something that is just so nourishing in your life right now. And it could be something physical or mental or emotional or spiritual or relational or just like any area of your life that just really feels so good for you.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, that's a hard question. There's so many things. My yoga practice is my anchor, my ground, and it fills my cup rather than emptying my cup, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And that doesn't have to involve rolling out a mat or going to a class, even. So that can be pranayama, it can be meditation, it can be self-study, and the normal sort of stereotypical yoga that we think of.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

In the West, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Are there any particular parts of your yoga practice that you find yourself feeling really fulfilled by or just kind of craving right now?

SPEAKER_00

I've love yoga nidra at night, and there's also a coherent uh meditation with coherent breathing to slow down my respiration rate. And I love bee breath if I'm feeling a bit frazzled, or my daughter is with my six-year-old. You know, um, chanting can be nice with or without poses as well. Yeah. Yeah, that's what comes to mind with my yoga practice. It's evolved a lot over the last 15 years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Isn't that amazing to kind of reflect on how your yoga practice changes with you? But also, I find, and I'm curious if you've found this as well, that like early on in my years of yoga, I needed a lot of very physical yoga to help my body get over chronic pain, to find like balance and alignment and for things to kind of shift in terms of like the structure of my body. And then over time, the physical practice is still very much there and a part of my daily life. But so much of my yoga now encompasses other arenas because my physical body is in a really good spot. I has that been like um at all part of your journey, or has it been totally different?

SPEAKER_00

It's been different, yeah, but it has changed in that when I started practicing yoga, I relied on going to classes and I was I was in the bikram bubble and also the hot power vinyasa. So it was very intense.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And yeah, it my yeah, my body needed it in the way of my hips. I got a lot of hip pain, which I I think is trauma-related with the psoas being tight. Um, and I noticed that certain times of the month I had hip pain, and also when I was riding my horses, which I used to have. And so the yoga did help with hip pain and back pain initially, but then as I've gotten older and after surviving my second fire, because of the way the body holds trauma, I've I've still relying on that physicality with um yin yoga, hot yoga still at home, and myofascia release with yin yoga, myo yin, or just myofascia release somatically.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But it's not the intense, especially not the vinyasa I used to do because my body is different, especially with arthritis and my foot.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So it's changed in that regard. Yeah, so it's a bit different to you.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and I I want to make sure that I'm painting the right picture for our listeners that I still very much use physical practice as therapeutic tools to help my body stay strong and useful, right? But um that reliance on it so much has kind of like the need to spend so much of the time on the physical practice has shifted, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's that's true for me too, because you know, I used to go to a class and it was 90 minutes long, or 60 or 75, and I don't think my physical practice would last that long anymore because I know how to meet my body where it is and what know what it needs. And that's the beauty of having a self-practice and the knowledge, because you don't have to do what everyone in the class is doing, you do what your body needs, and each day can be different depending on our mood, hormones, whatever. Yeah, so it changes a lot. The weather can change things, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I absolutely love the the sense of self-agency that comes from that, because I tell my students and clients all the time the sign of an advanced yoga practice is not like handstand or birds of paradise. It's can you honor your body and can you meet it where it is today? And can you let your practice be modified or adjusted so that it's therapeutically aligned for what your needs are, rather than this like aesthetic idea of what an advanced pose, because you know, I will tell you that I have not devoted my life to achieving the most like photographic yoga poses at all. Right. Um, there are many yoga poses that I will never achieve, frankly, because I don't give a shit about achieving them. But that's just that's not right here from the start. I want our listeners to know that that I and that you and women like us are giving ourselves permission to just let go of that and to find a way of practicing that meets our unique needs. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but that's the stereotypical thing we think of. We we equate yoga in the West to gymnastics or dance routine. A lot of vinyasa flow glasses are so complicated. The teacher spends a lot of time trying to memorize the dance vinyasa sequence, and we lose the mindfulness and the ahimsa of permission to practice nonviolent self-care to ourselves. And I do like to remind students that the most advanced yogi in the room isn't necessarily the one standing on the head, it's the one who's the mind, the most mindful and present, and who listens to their body and gives themselves permission to not worry about what someone next door is doing. Doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's your practice.

SPEAKER_02

So I'm thinking of the woman who might be taking a big exhale right now because maybe she's been feeling, maybe you've been feeling insecure. This woman, if you're like, oh my gosh, they're talking to me, uh, we're talking to you. If you've ever felt insecure in a yoga practice and felt like maybe somebody else's balance pose was more statuesque or graceful, for example, and you were like the octopus on roller skates, like all over the place, that that comparison just is so silly if we really boil it all down, because the the true strength of a yogi or yogini is actually that capacity to be present and to keep returning to ourselves and to honor ourselves as we practice.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I would also like to say to that listener that if you feel that way, that's normal. Most people feel that way when they start a yoga practice because of the way yoga's portrayed. And it's to me, the word, as you know, being a yoga therapist, that we know that word comes from to yoga, it's the word union. And I like to remind my students that yoga isn't something you do, it's a state of being we try to get into with our practice.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it doesn't uh the ancient yogis didn't do handstands, they're a modern yoga pose, they didn't do sun salutations. It's good for people to know that. And but if you feel that way in the beginning, most of us did, I think, unless we were one of those gymnasts at the start that never can did that, you know, were the most flexible in the class to start off with.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, which just addresses that like common thing that people feel like you might feel insecure about your flexibility level or your balance capacity, or like I've even had women feel insecure about whether they might have like a queef or a fart, or they might have like a coughing fit, or and you know, like women, if you're postpartum, like those things are you might have a queef in the middle of a yoga practice. Like it's totally normal and natural for their for your body to be a body in a yoga practice. And so just know that as spaceholders for that, that is if you're not a yoga teacher, then you probably don't know that the yoga teacher is expecting people to just be human beings together and for it to be messy in that wonderful way that it is when human beings come together and take different shapes and do different breath work and experience different things. And so a lot of that insecurity, I think that people who are newer to yoga or who don't um have the kind of relationship with a teacher or a yoga therapist where they understand those things, that maybe those listeners can hear us saying that you just get to come as you are and that you don't have to look a certain way or be a certain size or have a certain whatever. We're designer active wear. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you don't need $80 yoga pants to come into class.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So I know that during our conversation today, we're gonna get into some trauma-informed yoga topics and some trauma-related topics and some yoga therapy topics. And I'd love to start off by just kind of defining some of those words so that our listeners have a little bit of a frame of reference and we're bringing them into our hive mind here so that they can understand it along with us without any guesswork. So, first off, Liz, how how do you think of trauma and how would you define trauma as a lived experience for people?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's yeah, that's a great question. For me, it's I think Peter Levine described it as uh unstored stresses in the body, but it's it's often seen as someone who's survived a war, like this big event. But it it's there's various types of trauma like vicarious trauma, of knowing someone who survived something, and there's alternative childhood experiences, which is a bunch of things, which was the case for me, that they exceed our own resilience and store stresses in the body that then affect the brain. They can change the brain quite a bit. But it's I think all of us have trauma, but not all of us get a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder or complex PTSD. But even if we don't get a diagnosis, it doesn't mean it hasn't affected us, but because there's such a strict criteria with PTSD. I don't know the criteria off by hand, but it's pretty strict and it takes six months to diagnose. It's a it's a yeah, it's so I think we've all got it, but it's just how much it affects us as well. And I think some of us don't know how it's affected us. And if if someone gets triggered, pardon me, I may have a sip of water in a sec, but if someone gets triggered, and and if anyone in the audience is hearing this, and you didn't know something would trigger you, like have a nervous system reaction, as my understanding of a trigger, know that that's normal too. I've been I've had stuff trigger me that I thought I never thought that would. And what triggers one person might not trigger another as well.

SPEAKER_02

Even within like the same family, like siblings could be triggered by different things, or one experience might be really traumatic, traumatic for one sibling and not for another. So I really love the working definition of trauma that it's really anything that's too much or too big or too fast, or we lack the development and support to actually digest and work through and process in the moment. And so, really anything could be traumatic. And I also really want our listeners to hear that there's big T trauma and there's little T trauma.

SPEAKER_00

Yes, that's true.

SPEAKER_02

So big T trauma could be things like a war or a fire or like a miscarriage or like some childhood sexual abuse, childhood sexual abuse, like any number, even like a parent's divorce, like um any anything can be any of those things can be big T trauma. And a lot of times people know with big T trauma that something major happened that they that they then have reactions to that come up. And then little T trauma is so much more innocuous in a way. Like a lot of times people don't really understand that these smaller things that happen were actually they made this sort of trauma imprint because they were for whatever reason too much, too big, too fast, or you didn't have the development and the support to actually like digest and work through at the time. And so little tea trauma can be smaller things like people pleasing. People pleasing, yes. Some other ways that you might see little tea trauma.

SPEAKER_00

Maybe having a slightly narcissistic parent getting slightly, yeah. Yeah, or a little bit of bullying. Um, yeah, that's a good question. People pleasing is the first thing that comes up, but I'd like to hear your opinion on that too, with little tea trauma.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so I know, you know, speaking as a woman who's grown up in the United States, that like body shaming is a really common thing that most women experience in their life. And it could be from like I I have a little tea trauma from third grade of being body shamed for my weight. And and it was one of those things that just like oof, it like really stung and it formed it formed a body and uh nervous system and a mind connection for me. But I know some women experience that in romantic partnership. They might like body shaming, I think, is a big area of little yeah, that's happened to me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. But I think it can also be like like if you came from a lower income family and maybe you didn't have the right shoes. What like I'm doing air quotes for our audio people, stuff like that, or seeing that your family didn't have the same financial means, or that had a lot of means and other people didn't. Like these are all different things that can make these little indentations in us, or being broken up with by somebody like right out of the blue. You didn't expect it. All these different things that are just so relatable and real, and we've all been through so many of them. These can be the little tea traumas that make it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. To be honest, the little tea trauma term was only something I'd heard about last year. Um yeah, so I had someone say it on my podcast, and I started thinking, and then I heard about someone having repercussions from people pleasing as a child show up in middle age. So yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02

They form these imprints on the psyche and on the nervous system that then we kind of carry as these adaptive responses. And then I also want to discern for people what complex trauma is, because complex trauma is a little bit different than other kinds of trauma. So do you have a working idea of that that you want to speak to? We can chat about it together, of course.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, I I will chat about it a bit. I know um there's therapists and people who don't believe it's different, um, because it's not in the DSM V, the diagnostic methodology. But to me, it's is it is what it is what it is. It's more complex than PTSD. It might be someone like me who's had multiple big T trauma experiences, like two fires, sexual abuse, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But also I've heard that ADHD, people like me, who's I've got ADHD, are more prone to developing complex PTSD. So that's my way of describing it, and I'm sure you'd have some more wisdom.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and it could be like our medical systems may look at it differently because I'm in the United States medical system and you're in the Australian one. So in the States, PTSD is more of a degree of severity of trauma and like a clinical diagnosis of, you know, a person is qualifying with these particular things and it's PTSD. And then complex trauma is more about naming the repetition of experience. So did something happen repeatedly, or was something more of like a singular event that didn't happen again? And so it has to do with like the idea of complex trauma has more to do with like frequency and repetition. And PTSD is more of like a medical condition of qualifying symptomology and experience. But I want people to just kind of know that there's this range of what traumatic experiences could be. You did such a beautiful job of naming that it can be different for different people, and that our logical mind really doesn't get to be the boss of whether we experience something as traumatic or not. It's just outside of the logical mind. It's in the it's in the emotional brain and it's in the nervous system. And I think that's an important distinction for people that might overintellectualize things or blame themselves, say, oh, there's something wrong with me.

SPEAKER_00

Like, and people don't get that people who survive the same event, like for instance, my husband and daughter survived the second fire, and that I reacted more to it than they did. And it's like they think just because you've been through the same event that you're all gonna have the same triggers, the same symptoms afterwards, but we've all got different histories, we've got different biology, and even I mean, one of the psychiatrists in the field, Bessel Vanderkock, said that he's interviewed people who survived the same major event, and their recollection and memory of it was completely different.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And because our minds can never be completely objective to. We know that from yogic psychology. And we're slightly warped with our own perception of things. But yeah, we can't always control, often can't control how the effect of things is going to be afterwards. And often I think people blame themselves and say, I should be over this by now. So and so is. Yeah. And I think it's great there's more so much more research now with trauma being held in the body and that talk therapy and medication is often not enough.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. And particularly that word held. And I know you may not mean that in a literal sense, but I just want to for clarify for people that it's not held in like your shoulder or your hip. It's really like in the fascia and in the nervous system. And it's like, you know, sometimes I think there was this trend in the trauma recovery space and the somatic space of like, oh, you just need to release it from this part of your body. And that's just like your hips, your psoas. Right. But like it's more of a tending to these parts that happens rather than like a like like we're not gonna like clear a chakra and all the trauma will be gone. That's a myth as well. We're more learning to tend and return and be with these parts of us and help them get their needs met over and over that soften.

SPEAKER_00

And not just release the psoas and think that's all you need to do. Yeah, because that's what I initially thought that it was mainly the psoas. And the psoas is an important muscle because of the location with it starting in the spine and then wrapping around into the groin, pretty much, and blocking our primary respiratory muscle of the diaphragm. So it is definitely involved. And but back in the day, I did trauma release exercises, TRE, with the David Bacelli ones. They fatigue the PSOA and then they release it. But after the fire, it was very interesting with the tremors I experienced that proved that it was all over my body with the ex with what happened after with the somatic. The way my body was holding it was quite incredible.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And but unfortunately, we're talking that tremors and shaking is a weakness. Hold it together, like an armor. Yeah. But it's good for people to know it can be a good thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I I tell people a lot, and I want to get a little more into your story in just a second, but that a lot of the ways that our body actually will naturally reduce the imprint of a traumatic experience is through tremoring or uncontrollable crying or very like animalistic body movement, or um, even just being really, really still. And so these different ways that we heal from trauma, even in a yoga environment, don't always look like warrior two. They can look so much more fluid and so much more body-led. And that can be quite uncomfortable for people to even let themselves tremor because you're working through those like thick layers of being told that, like, oh, that means I'm weak, or I might draw attention to myself, or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so it can be hard to start the tremoring because you've been trained all those years to brace, especially. I'm gonna be a bit sexist here, but especially for men you who, you know, the being the man of the house. I mean, even my uncle was told when his father died and he was 11, you can't grieve, you've got to hold it together, you're the man of the house. Stop crying. Um, so we naturally try to avoid the release. But luckily, because of my knowledge and experience with yoga and other therapy, I knew that it was a good thing, but I just didn't realize how much I would react, and I can explain that um as well if you would like.

SPEAKER_02

So let's let's do that. Let's get into what brought you to yoga.

SPEAKER_00

I might have veered off there too early. Sorry about that, Gary. No, it's good. It's cool with it. It just made me think. Um after the fire, obviously my nervous system was really wired. Um this is the first fire or the second fire? The second fire was worse, yeah. Um, because I was what Dr. Dan Siegel describes as really hyper-vigilant, anxious, on the verge of a panic attack, that sort of thing at night time because the fire happened at night. And then I was sort of more hope vigilant, the opposite um during the day. But what was really interesting was even for those people who think, especially for those people even who just think it's in the psoas, as we were saying, I I would be in doing a yin pose of the yin version of Cobra, Sphinx.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And my head, and for those of you watching on YouTube, my head was oh, I've just knocked the mic, but that's good. My head was going up and down, or I was swaying side to side, and I just went with it. I knew, and I just thought, well, that's interesting. That's never happened in Sphinx before. And my husband saw me because once it was in bed, I I often stretch. I'll often do that at night to help me sleep. But he was like, what the hell is wrong with you? And I'm like, this is just this is normal. And even my diaphragm would spasm because my I noticed after this second fire, there was a lot more tension through my diaphragm, solar plexus, even my pectorals, upper trap. So it was all over, but this diaphragm would spasm. I've never had that before. And I do a lot of my fascia release because of the training I've done here in Australia and also in the United States. Oh, actually, no, I didn't. What am I saying? They've based in the United States, and I did it online. That I'm getting my training mixed up, doesn't matter though. I do a lot of my fascia release.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And when I would go to release my temporalis in the side of my head, my maceters, the chewing muscles, down the back of my neck, the side of the neck, to put it in layman's term, I would tremor. And it was affecting the vagus nerve too. But and it would help me go to sleep. But I thought that's never happened before. And I had more pain as well because of the way my body had tightened up, there was more tension, had a sim more of a sympathetic nervous posture. So it just proves it's not just the PSOAS, it's all over.

SPEAKER_02

And so, how did that lead you to becoming a yoga therapist or or really exploring trauma-informed yoga?

SPEAKER_00

I'd started exploring trauma-informed yoga and yoga for mental health back in 2013 was my introduction. So I was I'd done my 500 hours because I did the first 22012, and then I happened to do a remedial yoga course, which was initially called yoga therapy, but in Australia, they're quite strict on that word, and they were told, no, you can't call it that. Anyway, and in this course, I learned about yoga specifically for mental health from a yoga therapist and psychologist who came in, and she told me about Amy Weintrubb, who's in the United States, and she wrote one of the first articles in the yoga journal about yoga for depression. And that too, yeah, and then yoga skills for therapists and yoga for your moot deck and all that. But she also wrote the first article about equating yoga to Prozac. Anyway, I learned about that style of yoga, and then she actually happened, and then so that got me down the route of looking into more specifics, but I wasn't a yoga therapist.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, in Australia, you've pretty much got to be teaching for 10 years to become one. Um it's yeah, anyway. Um, and then I she came to the Australia, which was amazing. So of course I took that opportunity because it's yeah, and then I became certified level one, and I did some other training because we are lucky also to have Dr. Timothy McCall, famous yoga therapist, author of Yoga is Medicine, come. And then before the fire, I did another, I did yo a another course on it, it was a yoga therapy module of the whole yoga therapy on mental health. And then before the fire, I decided to sign up and do the whole yoga therapy qualification, which is here in Australia, it's 650 hours minimum, and it has to be done over a two-year period. Yeah. And my husband after the fire is like, why did you sign up for this? I said, I did it before the fire, and I think it was meant to be, and I learned more about there were trauma-specific subjects as well. And and Amy does touch on it with her training and the different approaches. But because of my own experience of having complex PTSD, it's I think it's also because if you suffer from it yourself, you get more of a passion for it. That's my that's how I feel too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So it sounds like you obviously you experienced some childhood trauma. You, and then at some point you experienced a fire, and then you were working as a yoga professional during that time. You were really processing different levels of like different styles that you were working on earlier, and then uncoupling from some of that and learning some different areas, and then you experienced a second fire, and that that was a huge traumatic event for you that had massive ramifications, and then that kind of pushed you even further into an interest in this arena, but also I think you're I think it's a cool story to name. And I feel like I have this perspective too of having experienced trauma prior to yoga being in your life. Maybe, maybe I'm not picking up on that. Maybe you've done yoga your whole life. Um, and then I definitely did. So, like trauma happened before yoga happened, and then yoga was there, and then traumatic events happened during yoga practice, and then just kind of just seeing that evolution. So, I'm curious for you what yoga has given you in that trauma recovery journey, like yoga in particular, because obviously yoga is not the only tool in the tool belt here. Mental health support is immensely important, and working with a really great licensed clinician who is a mental health provider, I'm sure was a massive part of your journey too. But what about specifically yoga?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, that's a good question. Because in the old days it was just talk therapy or play therapy with kids because I was diagnosed at age 11 because of sexual abuse and ongoing abuse at an international school I went to. And it never got rid of the nightmares that I had. And it was still in my body a lot. So when I discovered yoga, it was another way of working from what we call as a bottom-up approach, because they now know after a lot of research that because trauma's stored in the body, we need both a top-down working at the brain first into the body, like talk therapy, and we need a bottom-up approach of working in the body first. So EMDR I've had as well, which is both. But um, yoga was a way of me getting helping to get it out of the body to the surface and release things, and also not rely on a therapist all the time, reduce medication. But it was it was mainly a way of a bottom-up approach. But not all yoga is a bottom-up approach. A lot of it's uh is just just very depends. And I think it's important for listeners to know that yoga can be a top-down approach, especially the way it's taught in classes these days. But it was a way to get it out of the body, but it's also a way of the helping the nervous system regulate because not more so from the poses, except the poses can release the diaphragm, but more so with pranayama, with breath work. That's another thing that yoga can do if you know what breath work's going to help you, because it's also important for listeners to know that some breath work can actually be more harmful than helpful when you're dealing with any contraindication, yeah, really, like high blood pressure or whatever, asthma, but also with trauma, because it could be too stimulating for the central nervous system and not be a good thing. But it can also be a very useful thing for the nervous system and a quick way to hack it, but to improve it over a period of time so it's more regulated and it operates more like a well-serviced sports car to a broken down car that doesn't have good breaks and stuff like that. So it's helped in that way, but it's and it's also helped with what a a lot of people don't realize is the self-study that yoga involves. It's really mind training, it's a mind tool, and you get to become more aware of the thoughts that are coming up and the emotions and notice what's coming up so you can start to learn which things are serving you and which isn't. And also the other thing yoga gave me was help with addiction. So having PTSD and ADHD, double whammy, it makes me more of an addictive, more susceptible to addiction. And I took up smoking when I was a little 14 or 15. And I tried, I was trying to quit on and off for years. And I being someone who was sexually abused, I was also very conscious of my weight and was anorexic from the age of, well, borderline from the 11th, 13th. So smoking was great because I was like, yes, it's curbing my appetite. And it was cool and it stopped being bullied at school. But then it was it's incredibly addictive, as we all know. And I struggled to quit and did everything. And I even did hypnosis, and then um I got to the age of I I discovered yoga, and within three months I quit the smoking, even though I was still in a miserable job, because I had another stress coping mechanism rather than smoking and drinking alcohol. So that's what it's done for me.

SPEAKER_02

Ah, I just want to pause and just sit with that for a moment because what an incredible gift, Liz. I mean, it gave you many different benefits across many different areas of you. I know it also gave you spiritual benefits that you didn't name, but I want to name for our listeners there were clearly spiritual benefits that came from this too. And it just it just radically improved your life on so many different levels.

SPEAKER_00

And like Ishvari Pranadhana, actually.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's one of the things that also comes to mind.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Realizing that things can happen for a reason, and the divine can often have a plan for us.

SPEAKER_02

Right. And to not, I feel like one of the things that I really work with a lot of my clients around is capacity to trust because trauma will really shake you. Well, even, you know, trust self, trust God or goddess or universe or source, whatever you want to call it, trust other people, trust uh money, trust health, you know, whatever it is. Um, but I think Ishwara Pranidana really invites us to practice that, that that trust alone. So I one of the things that we haven't gotten into yet, but I think is really important to name, particularly because in my area there's a lot of power yoga. Power yoga here in the States is still quite trendy. And yeah, I don't know if it's really popular where you are too.

SPEAKER_00

Uh it's not as trendy as it was, but that's more post-COVID. Like we had where I'm in a small city of half a million people. We used to have three power yoga studios here. Was the first Vinyasa studio, and it's there's none now, but that's also closing down. Um yeah, COVID. Because they closed down so much. Yeah. And the whole I think it's also, yeah, the heat is not as an as exciting and trendy.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. I do feel like we're seeing power yoga become less trendy, but it is still such a major movement. And I know for some women, power yoga is an important doorway into yoga because it is stimulating enough. It's you're not being still in a way that might trigger you. There's a lot of like moving that happens in power yoga and it's strong. And for some people who've experienced trauma, that is a really important step, stepping stone into a yoga practice. And also true, it is not necessarily the most beneficial style of yoga to support long-term trauma recovery, to support the nervous system resiliency, to support the deeper aspects of a yoga practice, like the mind and the body and the spirit and the integration of life and the philosophical aspects. Like we kind of miss out on those. But then also styles like Bikram, where there's been a whole lot of cult dynamics and abuse exist in that style. And if you don't know um Beakram yoga, it's a it's the signature 26 poses done in rooms that are heated to around 110 degrees Fahrenheit, and it's very, very structured. And so I know that very top-down. Very top-down.

SPEAKER_00

Dogmatic.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, there your agency in the class, like agency in your capacity to choose for yourself and honor your body is very low. Like you're following in a prescribed structured set of alignment. And I feel like, you know, 20 years ago in the yoga industry, those styles of yoga that offered people very little choice were really appealing to a lot of people. Like Iyengar yoga, I've studied with uh heavily in the Ayengar arena.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yes. Strict too.

SPEAKER_02

It's very strict as well. And you're kind of told a dogma. Yeah, you're told like this is the right way to do something. And even if it doesn't feel good in your body, like I there has been time in a Yengar class with a lovely woman, but she just I would she would put me in a shape, like her version of a down dog, for example. And then I would adjust my body in a way that felt better. And then she would come back over and do it again. And then I would adjust and she would just over and over. And then she one time was kind of stern with me in like this. Um, yeah. And so I kind of want to name because our listeners are all over the map in terms of our where did they start with yoga? Where are they now? What are they exploring in their yoga practice now? And I feel like you were in the Bikram world, you were in the power yoga world. And Mike can speak to that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I would like to speak. Yeah, sorry, I would like to speak to that. Um, the main thing is this lack of choice. With um, yeah, so bikram was very strict. We weren't allowed to leave the room, you're only allowed to drink at certain times. You were allowed to, you know, go into shivasana if you, you know, lie on your back if you needed a break. But as I know now with arthritis, lying on your back without props for me doesn't feel good either. There's a lot of ignorance and there's a lot of top-down cues. Your feet need to be hip width apart. It's not about what you're feeling in the body, it's about physical alignment, which is very common. With power yoga, though, what I did like about it versus ashtanga. So ashtanga is like bikram in that it's a set sequence. There's all three sequences, though, and you've got to get approval to move up. With Ashtanga, I found it very like bikram in that they just said warrior two, blah, blah, blah. You know, there was no spirituality to it, and there was not much choice as well. And it's very um overwhelming because there's some really strong poses in Ashtanga. There are, yeah. Uh, yeah. But with power yoga, the way it's taught here in Australia, it's it's um we have Duncan Peake here, and I actually study with him. I did a second 200-hour training in with Power Living. What I do like about power yoga that it has over Bikram and Ayenga and Ashtangiar is they're not as strict on the alignment for one. It's not your foot has to be 90 degrees, it's got to be 30 cents. It's you in Warrior One, you've got to be one foot distance. It's like the it's like they're almost going to get a measuring tape on you. Uh, but anyway, with power yoga, they're not as strict with the alignment. But here the way it's taught here, which really uh I loved, was they bring a lot of philosophy with the way they theme classes towards a himser or presence, and there's more self-inquiry in that they'll give you a story about their experience and then ask you questions that make you think contemplate, so you get it, it's a bit of psycho yogic psychology in the class, and I think that can be beneficial. And also, we were allowed to leave the studio and go to the bathroom or whatever. But if you need to, yeah, so it did have the yogic psychology with the queuing, so there was a but it still was top-down cueing, but still they explained the spirituality, they emphasized the fact that the most experienced yogi in the room is doesn't necessarily do handstand, and so they gave you know they uh they sort of educated students to to know the real yoga and that you don't have to do that. Whereas I actually went to a an advanced bikrim class in um Queensland a a while ago, and they literally taught it like a gymnastics class in that they cheered people on, they glorified flexibility like I've never seen a lot, and they would compare students.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, they're in Bikram.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, exactly. But they actually cheered for people like it was a competition. Yeah, but that is very true of Bikram because they used to have a competition in the US. And they do glorify flexibility a lot, and even when they warm students warm up, they they face away from the wall, they put their hands above their head and they try to walk down the wall, which can be extremely dangerous, and they push students too much. I literally had my head yanked back with like grabbed the my ponytail, didn't know where he was, gave me the fright of my life. Yeah, I got pushed in a forward fold and ended up with sciatica and limping out of the room. So they also push students and don't let them to practice ahimsa. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So I want to kind of frame this up for our listeners because I think there are several different points that you touched on that could be red flags for people. Yeah. That are things that you would want to try to avoid in a yoga practice. And I want to also acknowledge that a lot of modern yoga practitioners are doing a lot of their practice online. And so there's not that context or nuance of unless a teacher is skillful at communicating the context and the nuance within the structure of an online class, what a teacher is saying is not like um the only way to approach a pose or the only way to think about a pose, or it's not like the Bible. You don't have to like follow it like a textbook all the way through. And so obviously, you want to be in a class environment where you're going to be listened to, you're, you can take care of your body in a very basic human way. You can drink water, you can go to the bathroom, but also you're having the power to choose. I know that you've shared that you view yoga like penicillin and that it's helpful to some and toxic to others. So, do you want to speak to that a little bit here? Because I think it's just so important in the trauma-informed yoga space that we actually know when we're in an environment that is supportive and when we're in an environment that might be inflammatory.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah. So my teacher, Joe Fee, used to say yoga poses are like penicillin. One may mean medicine to you and may be poison to your neighbor. But I like to take it further that it's not just yoga poses, it's yoga practices in like breath work and meditation, especially people with trauma. There's forms of meditation that can be quite contraindicative, like silent silent retreats for one, um visualization of going back to your inner child. There was a a yoga teacher who sued for that actually, successfully. So that's what I mean by that. But and that's why it's good for a teacher to give options and also giving a student an opt-out. If this is triggering you, stop. If this doesn't feel good on your body, maybe if child's pose with your legs together, your knees together doesn't feel good, do you want to um, would you like to bring them apart? If your hands out in front of you hurts your shoulders, do you want to bring them by your side? But also for a yoga teacher to even understand that child's pose doesn't suit everyone. And in the trauma lens, there have been earthquake victims. Because you know how they often say in a yoga class, oh, go to child's pose. It's nurturing, blah, blah, blah. In there's been earthquake victims who have gotten triggered from child's pose because it reminded them of having go having to go low to the ground to brace and protect themselves.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I think it's important to give students an evening. It's nice if a yoga teacher can give you another pose. Um, but also the other things that can be nice is uh knowing for a lot of us knowing where the emergency exits are. I don't think that's much to ask. So you can get a great gauge of a studio by when you go in to see how they welcome you. Do they do they say, oh, by the way, here's emergency exits, here's the bathroom. So you're familiar with the studio, they they have a nice warm face, they you know, they're approachable, they smile, they don't just say, you're late, put your shoes over there and treat you like a school kid. That can be important too. Um, yeah, but yeah, um, and sometimes it can be nice to bring a friend too, if you can support person, if you if you can, or even have a friend or your therapist call the yoga studio to get a bit of a gauge, because even people who've brought their therapists here in Australia, um, they're going that the uh a therapist is, and this is not like a yoga therapist, this is just this is a trauma therapist, have taken their clients into a yoga class and they said to the teacher, look, this person's got sexual abuse, don't, they don't want to happy baby is gonna be an issue, don't touch them, blah, blah, blah. And given them, and the teachers rolled their eyes and thought, oh, well, all yoga's trauma informed, it's all therapeutic, it's all good for, it's good for everyone. And they that's ignorance, that's dogma.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so they're the things that can be red flags with with things like no choice, not being, you know, and and just teachers being approachable. Like, I mean, after being surviving a second fire, I'm funny with smoke alarms now. So, for instance, I went to the gym and I said to them, You don't have many smoke alarms here. And that one, I can't see the light. Have you tested it recently? And I told them why, and they just laughed at me and went, Oh, come on, it's not gonna happen again to you. I'm like, Well, I've smoked two fires. Yeah, so you wouldn't want to go to a studio where they weren't compassionate.

SPEAKER_02

Right. They don't listen. Yeah. So I hear a lot of really noticing how something makes you feel and then looking for spaces that are very relational, like they're helping you to feel comfortable from start to finish. I also want to say that I think that there's a lot of people who kind of hang a shingle and say that they're trauma informed, but they they haven't actually taken appropriate training. And so just using a sense of discernment about whether how someone makes you feel or how specific poses make you feel. Because for some women who have experienced sexual abuse, happy baby is not an issue. And then for other women, it is an issue. And I think a lot of it is environment specific and it's individual, like we were talking about earlier. And so I think that the reality is that you don't know, like you said earlier, you don't know what's going to trigger you. And so, can you practice in an environment at home or online that actually allows you to meet your needs if you do become triggered? And maybe that's adapting or moving, maybe that's leaving the room, maybe that's you know, doing something completely different than the class is doing. I think if you're allowed to. Yes, don't be in an environment where you're not allowed to, would be my, I would just recommend that across the board for anybody that's in a trauma recovery journey journey to only engage in spaces where you can be supported and having choice. But also for somebody that's practicing online, just you know, look into somebody's credentials before you go into like a deep meditation with them. I I want you all to be scientists of kind of if you do a practice and you're told like, oh, it should have these benefits or should feel this certain way, if it makes you feel awful, take note and don't assume it's something wrong with you that you feel wrong with it.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Right? Or it could be something like that teacher. Yeah. Or it could be something with that practice or that pose. Um, so just really trusting that inner sense. Another thing that I wanted to name here is the lack of rest in a lot of yoga environments that I think is really a disservice to somebody that wants to recover from trauma and heal their nervous system and use an approach that isn't just all top-down. I think restorative yoga, I think restful time, like a lengthy shivasana, are all such important pieces as well. That ability to downregulate the nervous system is essential.

SPEAKER_00

I agree, although I would like to add that restorative yoga isn't always relaxing. So uh Amy emphasizes this with meeting the mood. So I mean, someone with trauma, like they're hyper-vigilant, their nervous systems, you know, wire, they're in that sympathetic state. They might need to get rid of some energy first before going to a restorative class because it's they hold poses for so long that there is a some for some people it they need to get rid of some energy first. Yeah. Or maybe only do it on a certain day where they feel they can go in stillness, and also know that and have hopefully have a teacher that knows that straps don't always go down well, especially if the straps are tied up. Um even not even for not even for someone just with a sexual abuse um history, like someone like me who's had to escape their house quickly, evacuate, might be going, Oh my god, I'm stuck in this pose. She's tied me up with like in the restorative bridge. She's got two belts around me. I can't get out of the pose myself. What if there's a fire? She's got 30 students to get out of this or whatever.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That could create panic. But yeah, I do believe stillness is important too. Yeah, definitely. But I just wanted to add that in that if anyone's felt like it's too much stillness or they've gone to restorative class and couldn't relax.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. No, I so I've been teaching restorative yoga for 17 years, and I've seen that so many times, where somebody will be like in the most blissful state and they're asleep, and another person is very anxious. And I've been telling people like, you need to go on a run today if you want to come to restorative yoga. Like, you got to get that energy out if your nervous system does not transition well, or like a lot of times we'll move first and then we'll do it. So it's there, you know, there are ways to. I think that sometimes people will become avoidant of rest and stillness because it makes you uncomfortable. Yes. But rest and stillness is an essential way that we actually access inner knowing and that we experience passive muscle relaxation that we can't get in any other form of yoga. So it's I don't want to name restorative yoga as like bad or triggering, but it's more just different. What are the needs in order to be able to get there in a way that works for you? Because I think it's just I think it's just so important.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it is important, especially because people with trauma often have a sympathetic nervous system posture in that they've got a lot of muscle tension. But I thought I was doing well after the fire because I was busy. I was salvaging contents because we didn't lose everything. We were lucky, and I was really busy doing stuff, and then my therapist pointed out to me, you know, that's a trauma response because you you're not ready to sit with the feelings and practice that self-study, it's too uncomfortable for you. Um, so that's interesting too. And uh just anyone who's listening know that that's quite normal as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It is, and it's normal to like to get to that at your own pace and your own time, and there's no right time for somebody else. It's the right time for you.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and sometimes stillness practices in yoga can give us a way of sitting in stillness, but not sitting in the trauma, if that makes sense. Like we learn how to be still with ourselves while doing a breath work that's soothing to the nervous system, not activated. And then that enables us to make friends with stillness, and then from that place of friendliness with stillness, we can then journal perhaps about experience. Like these are I want people to see in my own nerdy way, like how practical all this stuff is. Because I think sometimes people that don't understand think that yoga is just like this um this special thing that you do. But to me, this is like very basic practical work that we're doing on so many different levels. So I want to talk a little bit about women who are doing home practice more and how they can use trauma-informed yoga to support them, but in a way that helps a woman who's doing it at home and not a studio. What shows would you have for that woman?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I I mean, some people have gone to YouTube, which I'm kind of like you there's no way to get feedback. And if you going down that route, the the only thing I would say, if you have to go down that route, look for something labeled trauma sensitive, not just trauma-informed, trauma sensitive, because they're the trauma sensitive is the taking it to the next level of uh a street a style of yoga that's particularly designed for people with PTSD. But at home, I think it's great to work with someone one-on-one to help design a home practice that you know is supportive and know the options you are and you have. And there's some practices I think that especially in the acute phase need to be avoided, like these fast-paced, huffy, puffy breath works that you see on even Instagram, and that actually can do a lot of damage. Not to scare people, but I'd encourage people, invite them to avoid that. Yeah, and I would invite them really to work with someone one-on-one, or if you do it online, I would invite them to again research the teacher and look for something that's trauma-sensitive or trauma-informed, labeled that. Yeah, and the description as well. But it can be really good to work with someone one-on-one, I think. Yeah, because we're all so different, yeah. And if it's one-on-one, I think it's best to work with a yoga therapist. I know here in Australia they're pretty strict with that. And if it's therapeutic yoga, it should be a yoga therapist. And I mean, I've gotten brought up on it social media a few years back when I used the word therapeutic, because I wasn't a yoga therapist at the point, but yoga therapists are working with particular specific populations to to for a therapeutic yoga practice, which I think for trauma release, it it needs to be therapeutic in a way.

SPEAKER_02

Um, and well, I also just hate that term trauma release per. Personally, because we're not fair enough. We're not really trauma. We're we're tending to ourselves in a way that holistically allows us to return to ourselves. We're not, I mean, my my husband's therapist, we're big on mental health support in our house.

SPEAKER_00

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_02

Describes trauma as like a knot in a tree. And the knot I'm not in the tree. A knot in a tree. Yeah. Like an indentation and or not necessarily an indentation, but like a protrusion in a tree, like a unique part of a tree. And how the knot will always be there, but the knot doesn't always have to bother you. Like it's just gonna be like a beautiful part of the tree versus like something that really troubles you. And so I just want to speak to that home practitioner as well about having a guide, which you so clearly you know shared, like getting a good quality guide is really important, whether that's through a YouTube video or a membership like mine or working one-to-one with somebody like you or like me. But then also knowing that the real aim is this self-tending work. That's the yoga practices that are actually therapeutic are gonna feel a certain way. So, can we talk a little bit about what she'll actually feel if she's doing a kind of yoga that's going to really meet her needs?

SPEAKER_00

Well, the first thing I'd say would you you would feel, I would hope you would feel better at the end of the session than you would at the start, that the yoga would meet you where you are, meet your mood, whether it's anxious, uptight, needs to get rid of energy, or if you're feeling the opposite, meet you slowly, like with Yoga Nidra, and slowly elevate the mood back to a balanced state.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but meeting you where you are and focusing on what you feel rather than what it looks like, and being individualized because we're so unique as well.

SPEAKER_02

So that's better than when you started the practice.

SPEAKER_00

And and that if you got triggered, no the and I'd hope the and the yoga therapist or yoga teacher, if it's a trauma-informed class, would know how to ground you. Because and know because getting triggered is is common enough, we cannot guarantee we're not gonna trigger someone. Yeah, but we don't want to re-traumatize someone. We want to be able to offer a sacred space that know that people feel comfortable to be themselves. Like if they cry, that's okay, it's a release. But have someone there to ground them if they do get triggered and need that and can't regulate themselves.

SPEAKER_02

Because not a woman is going to feel physically and mentally better from the practice, she's going to feel supported, even if she gets emotional or has a triggered response. Because the reality is like, we're not, I tell my clients that I will trigger them because it's inevitable that I won't trigger them. It would be impossible for me not to trigger someone because we just I can't know everything, you can't know everything. So we're not trying to avoid triggers, but we are trying to, you do want to feel supported if you do become triggered and not judged or shamed if that comes up or not made to feel like there's something wrong. You want to feel like it's okay. It's normal.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's normal. Absolutely. Yeah, because some teachers will freak out who don't have that trauma form. Like uh, if someone cries in the class, crying is really normal in yoga, it's a release. In Ayurveda, we use um they use onions to encourage crying to as a release, you know. But it is normal, and just because a student cries doesn't mean you need to rescue them. It just depends. They might just be crying lightly because they've had a gentle release, they're grieving. I know a yoga teacher here who'd lost her father. She spent the majority of class in child's post crying quietly. And the teacher knew she's okay, that's what she needs today. There's, you know, she doesn't didn't. Whereas I've heard of yoga teachers freaking out and you're disturbing the class. Can you just stop crying? And can you get some therapy before you come back to another class? You know.

SPEAKER_02

I think those are a lot less common for our listeners that might be avoiding taking a class.

SPEAKER_00

No, no, look, no, that's that's pretty she was a new teacher. I'm not trying to scare people, but I'm just saying this is what a supportive space would be that would look like. Yeah, you would expect to trigger someone because you know that what triggers one person may not necessarily another. Like sirens might trigger someone like me, but not someone like you. I don't know. But we would be prepared for it to support and offer that sacred container. And yeah, this was a new teacher who also had some trauma herself.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, um, not everybody can hold our depths with us and finding people that are, as Brene Brown calls it, like um, not that you would share deeply this stuff, but like people that are safe for you to explore deep things around the vault, Brene Brown calls it.

SPEAKER_00

Um not so familiar with her, but yes, I she's someone who's on my list to look more into. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, incredible work there. And if anybody listening is not familiar with her, she's she's based here in the States and she is a researcher on humans and the human psyche. She's a shame expert, and she's just got so much to say about imperfection and shame and the courage to be you in the world, vulnerability, authenticity. She's amazing, highly recommend.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, I watched one speech on YouTube and it was interesting, it was powerful and inspiring. Yeah, that's about all I've seen.

SPEAKER_02

Her books are really great as well. So, Liz, we have covered so much ground together. We've talked about all kinds of things. As a closing question, I'd love to ask, and we've we've just like danced all over this so many times, but if there's anything else that you have to share about how yoga has been or is currently a part of your growth and healing journey, how is yoga supporting you in your own growth and healing?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, through greater self-inquiry at the moment, like through yogic psychology, but I I just want to emphasize to listeners that it doesn't have to involve rolling out a yoga match. And I think what's been great for me with having my own practice and knowing that is I can break it up throughout the day as little pieces of yoga snacks and self-care. Yeah, that sort of thing. Like if I'm feeling frazzled, I can stop and do my bee breath. I can do my meditation and journal and see what's come out of that self-inquiry. I can break it up.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and I never used to have that. So that can be great. How about having a home practice? Yeah, it can be more portable, time efficient, and tailored to yourself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. It sounds like you found a way to really have it work for your life and for you to have these beautiful tools in the tool belt that you can grab and use that that on so many different levels has been healing for you and empowering for you, for you to just continue to be nourished by. I feel like motherhood really changed that for me to the point that my the nourished woman sanctuary, my membership is all 15 to 30 minute practices. Because truly, like if we look at the science, 18 minutes is like the point of massive difference for a lot of people's nervous systems. And so just know that, like, like you're saying, little little doses of yoga medicine, if you will, therapeutic yoga can make a world of difference in how you feel and how your nervous system is responding and how your brain is responding to what's presenting itself in your life.

SPEAKER_00

Especially because of the neuroplasticity of the brain, Dr. Timothy McCall emphasized that that can be more effective because of it's so consistent and regular than going to a couple of yoga classes a week. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

For sure. So if people want to look into you, I know you've got a podcast that they can look into. Is it available in all the places or is it more like one pocket of where they go to find it?

SPEAKER_00

Uh no, it's available everywhere except on YouTube. There's not all of the episodes are out there for various reasons because not all of them recorded video, for instance, but it's available anywhere else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Great. And where would they find you on the internet?

SPEAKER_00

Uh Liz Albanus, which they'll see how to spell wellness.com.au, and Liz Albanis wellnessau on YouTube and Instagram, pretty much. And um I've got a wellness designed for you program, which I incorporate because I've got fitness qualifications and my affascia release Pilates, where I tailor a program to them that incorporates yoga therapy with my affacial release and fitness if that's appropriate, online. And that's one of the main things I do anyway. And before I actually offer it face to face here in Canberra, um, at the moment, it's just online.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. Well, I will put all the information down in the show notes. So if you want to look more into Liz, you can see more about who she is and what she does. Liz, it's been such a treat to get to meet you. And it's been fun to have. I've had a couple of international guests on. You're my second one. It's been fun to just hear about the yoga world where you live as well. So thanks for your time today.

SPEAKER_00

Well, thanks for having me, Carrie. It's been a really interesting conversation.

unknown

Yeah.