How to Deal With Emotionally Immature People Without Losing Yourself

Do you have someone in your life who shuts down, gets defensive, or continually blows up at you? When you try to have real conversations, do they fail to take accountability, become the victim, or turn it around on you?

Being around emotionally immature people can leave you feeling drained, unseen, and deeply frustrated. It can feel like you’re carrying the emotional weight of the relationship, while repair is always left up to you.

And this does more than just feel exhausting. It disturbs your nervous system, steals your peace, and can slowly lead to losing yourself. You may start questioning your feelings, doubting your worth, and taking on more emotional labor than anyone should have to carry.

In this episode, we explore the impact of emotional immaturity and what it looks like in real life. We also talk about ways to navigate these relationships while staying grounded and protecting your energy. If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed by someone else’s inability to take responsibility or handle their emotions, this episode is for you.

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KB 🦋

Transcript

Opening thoughts

Kristen 0:00

Welcome to Empower Hour with KP, where we talk about all things personal development, self-healing, relationship health, and manifesting. My name is Kristen Brown, and I'm the author of the International Number One Bestseller, The Recovering People Pleaser, a spiritual guide to reclaim your true worth and attract the love you deserve. I'm an energy intuitive life coach and mentor and motivational speaker. Today we have a wonderful topic and one that I'm certain that we've all dealt with or are currently dealing with. Do you have someone in your life who shuts down, gets defensive, reactive, or turns the conversation around the moment it becomes real? Or do you have someone who avoids accountability, minimizes your feelings, or makes you feel like you're asking for too much just by expressing a need or a feeling? Do you have someone who says they want connection but resists the very vulnerability and responsibility that connection requires? If you've answered yes to any one of these questions, it is highly likely that you're dealing with an emotionally immature person. Emotional immaturity is a lack of developed emotional skills that are needed to handle emotions, feelings, conflict, and responsibility in a grounded and self-aware way. An emotionally immature person struggles to regulate their emotions, to tolerate discomfort, to take responsibility, and to respond with empathy. Instead of reflecting, going within, getting curious, they often react. Instead of repairing, they deflect or they become the victim. Instead of owning the impact of their behaviors or their words, they might blame, minimize, or avoid completely. It's important to know that emotional immaturity is not about age, and that means in adulthood, because I'm talking about adults now. This is about an undeveloped emotional capacity. And it often forms when someone did not learn healthy emotional modeling in childhood, or when their nervous system became wired for protection without intentional growth, those early coping patterns are carried into adulthood and will shape how they show up in their adult relationships. We've often heard and seen via social media this being called narcissism. And although there is a true thing, a true disorder about narcissists, what's it called? Narcissist personality disorder, something to that effect. Often what we're really dealing with is emotional immaturity. The blanket term has become narcissist, and yes, there are narcissists out there, but we're really dealing with emotional immaturity. So I'm going to first talk about the key signs of emotional immaturity in adults. And I see claps going up on the stage already. I know that many of you understand that this is what you're dealing with. And I really hope that when I get to the part about how to handle this, that you whip out a pad of paper and a pen and start taking notes because this can be one of the most frustrating things that we deal with, especially if we're someone who is emotionally immature, or for the most part emotionally immature, but we tend to get sucked into their spiral. I know I have a million times. I got sucked in, I can't tell you how many times. I tried all the old strategies to try to get them to understand, and it just never went anywhere. It was like we were in this vicious circular pattern that was draining the life force out of me. And so understanding that I'm can't change the other person. We don't have the power to change anybody. I started to look at the way I was responding and reacting myself to this behavior. And I started to shift those things. So stay tuned because we're going to be jumping into those as well. Key signs of emotional immaturity in adults. Number one, difficulty taking responsibility. They blame others easily, they struggle to apologize sincerely, and they deflect or justify instead of owning the impact of their behavior. They cannot take responsibility, they cannot take accountability. You might see it sometimes, and again, there's a continuum of this in individuals. The individual that you're dealing with may not have all of these signs, but they could have some. And they could be enough to be driving you crazy. It's really crazy making behavior. And I want you to understand that if you're dealing with this right now, I completely understand. And if you have found yourself acting way far out of who you naturally are, it's understandable because we can get moved so far out of ourselves, we can completely lose ourselves in these relationships because they just don't make sense. They're ultra confusing. You have other people in your life who don't act like this, and yet you love this person. So it can be a very, very hard place to be. And I want you to understand that you do have there are some things that you can do. Number two, low frustration tolerance. This means that they might overact to small conveniences. They get frustrated easily, they have emotional outbursts when things don't go their way. Um, I remember an individual in my life many, many decades back, that had this low frustration tolerance. And it was hard to be around that person because it seemed as though they were just frustrated all the time. And for me, someone who wasn't easily frustrated, I didn't really understand what was going on with them. It was strange to me that everything was making them upset. And this, of course, is before I learned about emotional immaturity. Number three, avoidance of hard conversations. This is a biggie. When it gets real, when something is brought up, when the truth is in the room, this person might shut down, they might withdraw, they might ghost, or they change the subject. And I'm smiling and laughing here because I'm thinking of an individual that I know. And when the conversation gets real, it is fascinating how that person will just bring in anything other than that topic. They just flip the script as fast as they can. Initially, when I was dealing with that, I thought, oh, they just don't understand. They think I'm saying something else. So they're responding in a way that wasn't on par for what was being discussed. And as time went on, I began to learn, wow, this is just a coping strategy for them. This is just a defense mechanism. It's a knee-jerk response of how to avoid. And watching that individual in their life, there was other people around them that who did the same thing, but also back down when they did that. They just dropped it. And I feel like this is something that once they see works with some people, they will just continue to do their whole life. It becomes a pattern. It's part of their wiring. Number four is black and white thinking. They tend to see all people as all good or all people as bad. They can see things as one way or the exact opposite. They lack nuance, they struggle with complexity in relationships. They can only stay in the very, very, very simple lane. So it's either good or it's bad. It's either right or it's wrong. And they can tend, in my way of viewing this, if they're emotionally immature, they can tend to see us through this lens as well. So they can see our behavior as all good or all bad. They don't see the nuance. They don't see the ways that you, especially if you're someone who is calling them out, even if it's in a constructive and gentle way, they'll see you as bad and they'll label you as bad because they don't like the way that they are feeling around you because you're bringing realness and authenticity to the equation, and they don't like it. So they can often turn this around on you and turn try to turn you into a bad person. And I want you to understand that that's one of the hardest things to deal with because I've known so many of just beautiful souls, beautiful spirits, and they have someone in their life that is doing this to them. And I can, I just watch them shrink and deflate and like all the air and fluid out of their body is decreasing. It's like they're just kind of sucking into themselves because they've got somebody who repeatedly has made their healthy ways of communicating or trying to get through disagreements and arguments as a bad thing. And once we hear something over and over and over again, a lot of us will start to believe that. And that's when we back down, that's when we walk on eggshells, that's when we don't bring up real topics because we don't want to feel the way we're going to feel when they start fighting back to us. Stephen said, uh, yep. Number five is their need to be right. This is a biggie. They prioritize winning in a conversation or a conflict over understanding. They just want to win. And they argue to dominate rather than to connect, to understand, or to make repair. This is a tough one, too, because you might be somebody who wants to have a greater understanding of what's happening. You're you're all in, you're all ears, you're all eyes, you're all heart, and you're listening to this thing. But no matter how you're showing up in this healthy way, they still are coming at you in a way that is just, they just want to be right. And interestingly enough, they may tell you that you always need to be right. Because they will start to project that onto you. Again, they're trying to make you bad, they're trying to make you wrong. And sometimes we'll pick up on that. And this is, I'm jumping a little ahead of myself here, but this is one of the things that we really have to get strong with. We typically the people who are dealing with these people, we are for the most part emotionally mature. We are open-hearted, we are empathetic, and we really just want connection and closeness, and we want to work through issues. But when we're dealing with someone that needs to be right, and then they're projecting that onto us, we can start to question ourselves. We can start to question whether what we're doing is right. If there's something wrong with us, maybe we're the ones that's the problem, right? So that's one of the ways that we need to stay grounded during this is understanding to trust your instincts, to trust your heart, to trust uh universal truth and capital T truth that is coming through you. I've had people argue some concepts that were they're so let's let me give you an example. Um let me come up with something here real quick. It is unhealthy and hurts a relationship to raise your voice to your person, regardless who that person is, your loved one. And I would have this person say, Well, in your opinion, uh no, that's a universal truth. That's a capital T truth that is known. So someone coming at me saying something like that, I'm like, okay, what's misfiring in their head that they don't see this? Well, the truth is they might see it, but they need to be right. So they're gonna find a way to switch this, swing this, move this, shift this to make you wrong because they want to be right. Because in order for them to be right, well, let me see, let me word this better, to keep up the facade of them being right, they're gonna have to make you wrong. And they're gonna find a way to do that. Number six, poor emotional regulation. This is mood swings, it's impulsive reactions, it's saying hurtful things in the heat of the moment, it is knee-jerk responding to everything that touches something inside of them, something that makes them either look at themselves or what have you. They don't tend to handle emotional things very well. Number seven, external validation dependence. I've seen this a lot too, and this could be one of the reasons why people think this is narcissism, because they really do make it about themselves. Their self-worth is dependent on your attention, your praise, and your approval. Who can relate to that? Have someone in your life that as long as you're happy and gay and attentive and praising and approval giving to them, they're in. Everything's great. You're the you're the best person on the planet. You're so amazing. I'm so glad I have you in my life. But when stuff gets real and you have to bring up a tough conversation, now all of a sudden, their self-worth falls. They slip into the shame, which has already been there, by the way. The shame is what controls a lot of this. That hidden shame that's there, you touch that shame, and all of a sudden you're the worst person on the planet. I remember being in a relationship with someone like this, which is many, many years ago. And I noticed this happening. This was my first introduction to this. I did not know what it was called. I didn't know it had a label. I didn't know. But I remember thinking, wow, as long as I'm praising them and telling them they're great and approving of things they're doing and giving them lots of attention, they feel good. But the minute things get real, that's when they turn tail and left. They left emotionally at first, even though we were in a relationship, we were actually in a marriage, they would do it physically as well in ways. It was very interesting. And I was like, what's going on here? Because I've always been about realness, I've always been about addressing issues, I've always been about respect and kindness and love and understanding each other and working together as a team. But this person didn't do that. They were doing something that I had never seen before, or at least in such a way that was very outward. It was very loud and very glaring. And so that was my first introduction into this. Now, learning what I've learned and experiencing what I've experienced and growing through many things, I was like, hmm, I see what was happening back then. It was exactly what I thought it was. Number eight is they have difficulty with empathy. They struggle to consider other people's feelings unless it directly affects them. They don't really care. They don't really care what's going on with you, with your heart, with your thoughts, with your feelings, and things like that. And they tend to just, oh, yeah, yeah. They might even develop a way of feigning empathy, where they kind of come in and they're like, oh, that really sucks. I'm so sorry. But they're kind of moved on from it. They don't sit with it with you. They don't, they don't roll around in it with you. They don't say, gosh, that really sucks. Tell me more. Oh, that would hurt my feelings. And then add to it, like, you know, one time this happened to me and I felt the exact same way you're feeling. There's just really no empathy. And that's a sad state of affairs because empathy is really one of the highest ways that we connect with connect with other people. But then if it affects them, all of a sudden they're going to try to come up with some type of strategy or manipulation to feign empathy. And they can be quite good at this, by the way. I've seen, I've seen it. Gosh darn it, I've seen it. I'm laughing again with that person I was referring to. My goodness, the way that they acted out in the world and how they had this mask and this persona and this identity, if you will, that they were sharing with other people. So many people thought they were the best thing on the planet. Oh, what a great person. Oh, they're so wonderful. I love them so much. And when it hit the fan and everything went sideways, those same people had such a difficult time believing they were who they were. Because they had pulled the wool over their eyes, they had snowed them, they had charmed them into believing they were the most amazing person. And I even had someone come to me one time and say, Are you sure you didn't do something? Are you sure that this, that, and the other thing? And I remember I was at a pretty good stage of emotional maturity at this point. And I remember going, I understand that your brain wants to tell you that it's me. I get it. But here are the facts. And this person didn't just say it to me once. They said it to me probably six or seven times over a span of time. And each time I just, I just honestly, I didn't take it personally. I mean, a little bit, a little bit, I was like, dang, don't you know me? But I really understood how good these people are at disguising who they really are. And they don't let that out. They don't really show their true self unless it's behind closed doors where nobody else is watching. Number nine is passive aggressiveness. Yuck. They use uh sarcasm, the silent treatment, they make these little digs at you, they disguise them at jokes. It's all this indirect communication instead of expressing their thoughts and their feelings and their emotions directly. They do all these little kind of backdoor pokes. Oh, have you dealt with passive aggressive enough? Send up, send up your claps if you have. I have, and I've dealt with it with people that were not, yo yeah. Boy, that screen lit up. Um, I've dealt with it with people too that are actually were really good humans. In that respect, that's where they were emotionally immature. I didn't know how to use their voice. So they would do it this way, and we know what passive passive aggression feels like. On the surface, it seems like it wasn't that big of a deal, but we feel the poke of the blade. We feel it. We feel it in our side, we feel it in our heart, we feel it in our head, we just feel this little eh. And then they're over there still smiling and acting like everything's fine, and you know, doing their little cupped hand wave, their little queen or king wave to whoever else is around. So everybody else thinks it's fine, but we felt it. We know what that feels like. And number 10 is they cannot and won't take accountability in relationships, they have a fear of it. They avoid things, they avoid repair, they avoid commitment, they avoid depth, they avoid things that are real. They don't want to look at themselves. And the truth is, because I talk about this a lot, shame and unworthiness are epidemics on this planet. Everybody, until they're not, until they heal it, are carrying around shame and unworthiness. It's in epidemic, pandemic proportions. It's everywhere in everybody. It's part of the human design, it's part of this whole life path design, I guess, or the spiritual journey, if you will. And these people have not ever looked at it, dealt with it, because they don't have emotional capacity. They're not going to look that way. It is the the only word that's coming to my head is the Antichrist. They're like, nope, I will not look at that. I'm not seeing that. That is not a thing. I'm not doing anything wrong. And the truth is, because they don't want to feel the shame that's associated with it, because they already have this huge ball of contained and oppressed shame inside of them, suppressed shame, that when they feel that for one second, boom, it's like an explosion inside of them, and they can't handle it. And this is what I think is one of the number one causes of these types of blow ups, or even in narcissism, why they act the way they act, because they cannot take accountability. They can't look at themselves because it's absolutely too shameful and too painful. That's where the avoiding comes in. They're avoiding depth, they're avoiding truth, they're avoiding honesty, they're avoiding accountability, they're avoiding looking within, because to them, and this is quite sad, to be honest with you, this it makes me sad because it's just too painful. It's it's really a bummer because these people, for the most part, they have these most amazing traits to them. They're creative in their own way, they're skilled and talented in certain ways, but they can't look within because they're just. And I've had people in my life who I have helped work through that shame and it's amazing and brilliant and beautiful and miraculous to watch them blossom. If there's one thing that I could share with the world, it would be heal your shame. Heal your shame. Your life will change in the most uh just mind-blowing ways. You become, you're still the same you, you're still the same genetics and likes and dislikes and tastes and sense of humor and morals and values, but you become this cleaner, clearer version of you. You stop taking things personally, you're not so self-doubting, you're not as afraid, you develop more courage, you're willing to step into places and rooms and be seen and be heard. Okay, what to do if you're dealing with an emotionally immature person. First, uh pause and tell yourself the truth. That's why we're given this talk. That's why I outlined in the beginning of this talk the signs of this. Because we need to be honest with ourselves that this is what we're dealing with. If you're constantly feeling confused or dismissed, or like the only one who's doing the emotional work in a relationship, it's just information. Stop attaching judgment to things. The patterns matter more than the promises. What a statement, right? Patterns matter more than promises. There's patterns that repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat. But we might say things like, Well, they promised the change, and I know they're working on it, and they're this and they're that. But really, are they? Because you keep seeing the same thing over and over and over again. Stop trying to explain or reason away what you are seeing. There's so much power in knowledge and information, just knowing. When I flip the script in my head, oh my gosh, this is what I'm dealing with, everything made sense to me. Because before I was just in confusion, I didn't know what was happening. It was just weird and mind-blowing and crazy baking. And please stop saying, well, they had a really rough childhood. Yes, we can understand where it came from, but it's not an excuse. We are grown adults and we are powerful. And once we move out of the situations of our past where we were governed by some type of authority figure because we were small in stature, in age, in brain development, once we move out of that, we move into adulthood, we have the power. So, yes, they might have had a tough childhood. A lot of people have. But it's imperative to call a thing a thing so that you know exactly what you are dealing with. Super important to know what you're dealing with. Many times this type of person is going to drive you nuts and may end up helping the demise of the relationship, but sometimes it doesn't have to happen. I've seen it, I've coached people through it, and it's fascinating to watch this happen because there are ways that we can change ourselves. So please understand that it's really important that you tell yourself the truth, you pay attention to the patterns more than the promises, you stop trying to explain or reason it away, stop being overly empathetic about their rough childhood. Yes, it was rough. We get it, we know. Call it what it is. Super important on this journey. All right, we're gonna bring up our first guest. Thank you, Michelle, for joining me today, joining us. How are you? I'm great, thank you.

Michele 25:37

I just wanted to share a couple things. You know, this is my favorite topic. It's a great one. Yeah, I have a person like this in my life, and when you were talking about the good and the black and white, he like didn't make me bad. It would be more he is bad. Like he would get in that shame spiral and he can't do anything right, and da da da. And that shuts you down. You know, I was like, I know that's not what I'm saying, you know. And you know, we've had this has been going on for years. And anytime I would try to talk to him, he felt attacked. So there's no way to talk to somebody that has armor on either, he would deflect and all the stuff you were talking about. And it's just you're right, you know, has shrunk and I got quiet, and then I found new vibe, and and you and learning how to how I can change my behavior to help the situation, to help me feel better and get stronger. And so that has helped. And I've also seen we started going to therapy, which he would never agree to before. Um, so with me changing my behavior, eventually he agreed to go to therapy. Wow, that's awesome! Yeah, but there was no, like you said, pay attention to the patterns. There was still those patterns there. And recently, at the last therapy session, I don't know what I said or what happened, but something hit him the right way, and he's getting it. He's like understanding. I know. He's saying things like, um, it's time for him to grow up and take responsibility. And I'm like, what? My God. And we started a um, I'm sure you're familiar with Jimmy on relationships. Um, I love Jimmy. And I was I would send him some of his the funny ones, you know, where he's wearing the wig and he does that. I was sending the funny ones because I don't want him getting, you know, upset and thinking, but he did at first. He would even, even if I sent him a joke like that, he would, you know, get defensive and think, oh, our marriage is you know over or whatever. I'm like, no, that's not what I'm saying. That's not what I want. He thought I wanted some big magical, I don't even know what he thought, but now he realizes I just want connection, connection. Yes, you know, talk about things. And we started a uh it's a thing on online, Jimmy and Matthias Baker. Yeah, from stuck to secure, we started that, and I'm just like, oh my gosh. He's crying, yes, crying, you know, because it's hitting him. He realizes these are deep wounds from your childhood, and you don't realize you're acting like this until you do. You know what I mean? Because I know I was like that when I was younger, you know, very, you know, nobody could talk to me. I was very, oh, the patience thing. I had no patience for anything. If something didn't work out the way I thought it should, oh my God, I was a basket case. So I can see all those things from when I was younger. And he was like that, or he is like that now, but he's getting better. So he's seeing the light. So I just wanted everybody to know, and this it has it has taken a long time, but if you love that person and you understand where it's coming from, it's up to you. But I hung in there because I see the good person. I love that person under there, you know, under all that pain. And that's what it is, just pain. Yeah. And once, you know, he gets that out and everything, yeah, we're talking, we're connecting. It's like it is, it's like unbelievable. I never thought, I really didn't. I thought I was just gonna be, you know, using my tools to help me feel better. I never thought that he would connect like he has been. It's just it is amazing. It really is.

Kristen 29:32

Yeah, I want to ask you a question, Michelle. Um, at what point did you decide that you're gonna start working on you differently?

Michele 29:41

Um, yeah, it was one of your talks. I can't remember which one it was, but you know, like how to handle, yeah, how we can handle those kind of people in our Michelle, can you come back if you have time just to finish that up?

Kristen 29:55

Okay, we're gonna bring Michelle back up. And I see you, Steven. I'll be right with you. This is really important because Michelle, the reason why I wanted to bring Michelle back to is because she is talking about what happens. This can this is real, you guys. It takes a minute and there's some unpacking here, but when you love somebody and you really want to stay there, it is doable.

Michele 30:15

Yes, yes. I had to change my perspective of the situation. And I know one tip was um, they don't get your time, you know. If he's acting a certain way, he doesn't get my time. You know, when he would get oh one, I remember the one thing that happened. He we were, I was trying to have a conversation, and he raised his voice and started getting defensive and interrupting me, and I just got up and walked out. I was done. I'm like, and I told him ahead of time too. Yeah, I did tell him ahead of time. I said, you know, when we have discussions, if you start yelling and getting defensive, raising your voice, I'm not gonna be there. I'm gonna walk away because that's not a discussion. That's not communicating, you know, because I then I just shut down, I get scared. You know, it triggers it. Yes, it triggers that scared little girl, you know. And I'm just like, then we can't communicate, you know, we can't get anywhere, you know. Like you said, it's just a vicious circle, you know, for years and years and years, same thing over and over. So when I learned from you that he doesn't get, he doesn't just because we're married, he doesn't get my time. He doesn't get the good part of me just because, you know what I'm saying? So I just yeah, I got up and I I walked out, and I think that shocked him. And that's that's actually when I started to see some changes.

Kristen 31:34

It's fascinating. And this is something I really want to put an exclamation exclamation point on for people is it is those small shifts when you're dealing with an emotionally immature person, a true blue narcissist, they don't care, they'll just go find somebody else. Okay. They don't care, they don't care. They're gone in a true that's a true blue. But an emotionally immature person, they do love you, they do want to be here, they don't understand what's happening with inside them either, but we do get into these vicious cycles, and it's through those small little shifts that are self-love based, by the way, yes, that we start to make. I don't know what it does, but it is miraculous. It it kind of, it kind of is like wiping the chalkboard clean or it clears some space, or it it allows them to come down faster so they're not all in the whirlwind. I'm not really sure what happens, but they do start to respond differently when we stop engaging.

Michele 32:27

Yes, yes. Yeah, because you I think, in my opinion, he was shocked. So he had to process that. He's like, Oh my gosh, we're not doing the same thing. This is going differently. What do I do?

Kristen 32:40

They start thinking things like, uh-oh, she walked away. And in their mind, they're like, What if she's leaving? What if she doesn't come back? What if you know, they'll start that whole thing too, because like I said, they want to be there too. Yes, yes, you know, and yeah, it's it's really miraculous. I'm having difficulty wording it, but I've been in the same position myself.

Michele 33:00

It is hard to, yeah, it's hard to word it, yes.

Kristen 33:03

But I'm so pleased, and just high five and kudos to you because when we're dealing with this type of thing, everyone, it's extremely difficult. It's extremely difficult. And the thing is, you're not wrong. What you're dealing with, you're not wrong. It it is that what you think it is. Yes. We can't control them.

Michele 33:24

Yes. And that's good to know too, because yeah, for years, I mean you wait till that's the that's the word.

Kristen 33:30

I'm sorry.

Michele 33:30

You can't change that. Yeah, that's okay. That that's that's what I thought. I thought I was, you know, something's wrong with me. I'm not seeing this clearly. I'm, you know, maybe I am too sensitive, maybe this, maybe that. For years until I found new vibe, and I'm like, oh no, other people feel this way too. This is what's going on. It was just eye-opening and life-saving, actually, because I feel more myself now that I learned all of you know the good stuff. Yes. How to take care of myself.

Kristen 33:58

And to keep going, because this is not one and done, everyone. It's not like, oh, we have this little no, no, what you're gonna start to see is a little bit of blue sky through the clouds, but it's the full sunlight's not out yet. And it's about continuing, continuing over and over again, protecting and honoring you, yes, and having these boundaries and other things. Yes. And and then slowly over time, you'll see this kind of melting away or peeling away. And it's fascinating to see. And when you do see that, you know that you're on the right track because you're not in the vicious cycle anymore. Right. Yes.

Michele 34:35

Yeah, everything is things are different, the whole dynamic is different. I'm so happy for you, Michelle.

Self-management tips

Guest Two: Jeanette

Kristen 34:41

Thank you so much for coming up and sharing that with us. You're welcome. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. Love you, girl. Love you too. Oh, this is one of those moments live where I'm just speechless and I'm just I have tears in my eyes, so I'm gonna cry. It's so freaking awesome. And I do want to give a shout out to Jimmy on Relationships and Matthias Baker. I'll leave it at that. But they are two amazing men who were emotionally mature and were beating their marriage into the rocks, and they both saw the light at some point, and they now have become teachers in the world. Jimmy, I think, started out on TikTok and just blew up. And like Michelle said, he puts on little, like this big red wig and he acts like the woman's side of it sometimes. And by the way, you guys, this isn't gender specific. In this particular case, Jimmy was the emotionally immature one and his wife was not. But he put on the both sides of the relationship. It's really funny. He's funny. And then he went over to YouTube, blew up there, and then he blew up on Instagram. I didn't learn of Matthias Baker until after, way after Jimmy. But they're working together now. And let me tell you, I've sat through some of their webinars and things like that. The way they approach this, handle this, speak about it, the maturity, the professionalism, Michelle, right? The lightheartedness, the kindness, oh my gosh, they provide such a beautiful space for healing. It's helpful for you too, if you're the person who's on the receiving end of this, because you will get validation. But what's wrapped up in all of their media, and I don't get paid for this, I just love these gentlemen. What's wrapped up in it all is solution. There is a way. There is a way. There is a way. So you're gonna get validated, but you're gonna see that there's a way. So excellent, Michelle. Oh my gosh. Thank you for my my emotional tears today. I'm so happy. All right, so now we're gonna talk about self-management tips when dealing with an emotionally immature adult. Really important. Michelle touched on the first one, one of the major ones, is that we don't engage. We stop engaging when they start pulling the shenanigans. And in the beginning, this might involve a lot of silent spaces between you two. It might involve having to do it many times in one week. It could require a lot. And but again, we can only change us. And that's what I had to do in my situation, too. Was the minute that person did what they did, I was like, nope, I'm pulling myself out of this. And there was, like Michelle, there was a setup, depending how close you are with the person. I had set that person up ahead of time in a calm moment and said, Hey, when this happens, this is what I need to do for me, because I need to protect my personal well-being and my nervous system. So here's what I'm going to do. And they're not gonna like it. And they could respond harshly to it, they could respond silent to it, they may start silent treatment treatmenting you. We don't really know what they're gonna do, but that doesn't matter. What matters is that you protect yourself from the tirade, the gaslighting, the manipulation, the raised voice, whatever it might be that they're doing. Putting it just under one umbrella, okay, they're triggered, they're in that space. That's all I need to know. Like I got to a place where I just shut, boop, the minute that showed up, I was out. And I practiced and practiced and practiced and removed and removed and removed and removed and removed. And at first I got a lot of pushback for it. Eventually, the person was just quiet. And eventually they started to humble and catch themselves quicker. But it took some time. But the most important thing for me was that I was gonna have some solid boundaries with how people were allowed to treat me. I know me, I'm loving, I'm giving, I'm a listener, I'm curious, I want to understand, I take accountability, and I don't deserve that. The end, period, period, the end. I don't deserve that. So I started to change this from trying to get myself to be understood and to make a point and make them understand and try to move us forward and have them take accountability and all these things. I stopped doing it all. I just started removing myself. Because that's how I decided that my peace was most important, my nervous system was most important, and so that's what I did. Number one, and these aren't necessarily in order, by the way, is to pull your attention back and set some boundaries. This doesn't mean you turn into a jerk, you don't start yelling at them, you don't be snarky to them. I would pull my attention away, and if I had something I had to say to them, I would say it and move on. But what it is is my time and attention is going to go to people who love, honor, respect, and care about me, not to people that are losing their ish, flying off the handle, acting atrocious. Okay, we've got someone who's joined the queue, so I'm gonna go ahead and bring up Jeanette, and then we will continue on with the self-management tips when dealing with emotionally immature adults. Hey Jeanette.

Jeanette 40:03

Hey, hi. I just wanted to put out there that sometimes I'm the emotionally immature person. It's me. But um I also wanted to say that uh what I struggle with is giving chances for a different experience. So like you you've set the boundaries and you've I, you know, I want to just like wall off and protect myself from being hurt, but that doesn't allow that they could do something different, yes. And it's very hard for me to open myself up to that possibility, but I want to because if they have changed, if they are gonna do something different, I want to see that. Yes, and it's possible. Yes, yeah. So I I especially think about this with my mom because I have, you know, all the way back being being hurt by by certain behaviors, and I got real um clear about what I was and wasn't gonna accept. But I do find that I'm I'm closed towards her, but I want a better relationship with her. So I try, and I mean it's very hard to know when to do it and when not to, but I try to at least, if I'm gonna be meeting with her, allow that she might be better.

Kristen 41:43

Okay, good. So what this is is keeping the heart open. That's all it is. Yeah. It's keeping the heart open and boundaries in your pocket. I'm gonna keep my heart open and see what could be. And if something, you know, the old familiar pattern comes back in, I got a boundary right here in my pocket.

Jeanette 42:02

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way to think about it. I think I I could be a little less um emotionally wrapped up in it.

Kristen 42:12

Well, let's validate the fact that this has gone on for decades and that you have basically stealed yourself for this behavior. You've had to. You've had to. Okay, that was part of protecting you, that's normal. But I I hear this part of you that's like, I'm I'm willing to be open. Like, there's this blossoming that's happening for you right now. This is what I feel. It's like this openness, but there is that old protection thing. So, how about having a conversation with yourself and saying, it is safe to open my heart because I know how to boundary and I know how to armor when I need to. But it is safe to open my heart and look at this through a cleaner lens, and I can refer back to if I need to, to my other protections. Right.

Jeanette 43:01

No, that makes sense. I could probably make, yeah, I should make something that's in my words to say to myself.

Stop over-functioning

Say things clearly once

Watch actions not words

Adjust expectations

Strengthen your own regulation

Consider the bigger question

Kristen 43:10

Yes, yes, in your words. Absolutely. Yeah, always in the love you. Oh my gosh, that's so good. Such a I saw a lot of um emojis going up on stage as she was speaking. So there's a lot of relation going on here, and I appreciate that and validation as well. So that's uh excellent because this is what I'm talking about. There's these little weird nuances with this stuff that we don't really know how to navigate on our own. We're like, uh, but uh, I'm kind of wanting this. There also comes a time sometimes, and I'm not saying this is true for Jeanette or anybody else on here. I'm just coming up to my head, it's coming to my head right now. There comes a time where we're kind of tired of the drama, or we're tired of dealing with this, and we just want peace, or we want something different. That's where this kind of coincides with the open heart thing. It's like, you know what, I'm tired of carrying this armor around. I'm tired of carrying this wall around. I just want, I'm going to try something else here, but I don't really know what that looks like. And being grown adults, like I said, we have the ability, you know what? I want to be more open-hearted. I want to be more forgiving. I want to be more loving. I'm going to be more open to that. There's a possibility that change has already happened. Because if we're super walled off, change may have already happened and we don't see it. Because we are that arm is out. That arm is out, that palm is up. That is stay away from me. I will only see you through one filter. You are awful in the way you have done things. But yet, hmm, what if what if things are changing? What if they have learned? What if they have grown? Have I been walling off to the possibility of that? And I wonder, Jeanette, not saying this is true, but I'm wondering if you have sort of seen something. And this is why you're kind of willing to open that door, if you will, or that window, if you will, just to see. I wonder if you're starting to see something, or if you've gotten to a level of healing yourself where this old armor does not feel comfortable to you anymore. You've outgrown it. It's too heavy. It doesn't feel right anymore. So work with that, Jeanette, and figure out how that works for you and what's a level of protection, not armor, because you know I distinguish between protection and armor, a level of protection that you can still keep without being so armored. That was excellent. Oh, so good. The next thing we can do when dealing with emotionally immature adults, and the first one was pulling your attention back and having boundaries and being very clear with what you're going to accept and not accept, is to stop overfunctioning. And this means when it hits the fan, you know, now what are we doing? We are walking on eggshells, we're initiating every repair. We are apologizing for everything. We're taking responsibility just to keep the peace. We are softening every message, we are delivering every message with whipped cream and I and a hot fudge Sunday with whipped cream and a cherry on top. We're really doing all this emotional labor. How about just letting the natural consequences happen? So the natural consequence of somebody blowing up at me for no reason, deflecting, gaslighting, doing whatever they're doing, one of the natural consequences is for me to remove myself, not to go rush in and try to get this fixed and try to get this handled and try to make this person understand. I just started to, instead of putting all the focus on them, I started to put the focus on me. Where am I spending too much time and energy? What am I doing here? And I started to turn that around to me. And when I did that and just took care of me, it sucked for me because I wanted to be around this person and I wanted to do things with this person and what have you. But I had to love me so much that I was not going to allow that anymore and let the natural consequences happen. I believe in my case, and it sounds like in Michelle's case as well, but I'm not going to, oh, what's the word, speculate because I'm not in their position. But it sounds like that by taking care of Michelle too, that's exactly what happened in that relationship as well. The natural consequences spoke for themselves. So keep that in mind too. But a lot of times we can be, oh, maybe we're afraid of being alone. Maybe we have abandonment wounds. Maybe we're afraid that if we do that, that person will leave. Well, I don't know about you guys, but I would rather a person leave who's going to leave faster than dragging me through the mud. That's something to think about. Now the next thing is to say things clearly once. Oh my goodness gracious, how many times that I overexplained, tried to explain it a different way, tried whispering, tried yelling, tried every possible thing, and I started to think that the person was dumb or stupid or whatever is the right word there. I really did. I was like, they must be dumb. Then I thought, stop treating them as dumb. They are a full-grown adult that's smart and has all their faculties. They know exactly what's happening here. They're just gonna spar with you as long as you're sparring with them because they like the attention. Believe it or not, you guys, some people take negative attention, okay, over no attention. Any attention is attention. Put it that way: positive or negative, it's still attention. And they still liked my attention. So I was like, you know what? I'm gonna say things once. I tried this out. My mama say things once. Here it is, boom. Here's what I'm gonna say. And if they didn't get it, or they asked another question, or they went a roundabout way, I would say things like, I've already stated that. Now, this is again is after I've you over-explained ad nauseum. I'd say, I've already explained that. Or what did I just say about that? I would ask questions. Do you remember what I said about five minutes ago about that? And then if they tried to deflect and get off topic, I would repeat and repeat and repeat. I wouldn't let them get away from it. I was like, nope, not sparring, not bringing in the kitchen sink, not going way out into the ethers. I won't do it. I'm gonna stay right here. Okay? Be very, very clear. They're not dumb. I made the mistake twice thinking they were dumb. Mm-mm. They're not dumb. They're not. Um, the next thing is to watch their actions, not their words. This is important. People can be wordsmiths and they can really word you up and they can tell you all the things that you want to hear, but then there's no actions to follow it up. Words, actions speak louder than words. What are they doing? Look at their behavior. Gross shows up as ownership. It shows up as I was thinking about what you were saying, and I can see this. It shows up as changed behaviors. If apologies never lead to change, that's data. That's information. At one point in one of these relationships, I remember saying, I don't need an apology, I don't want an apology, I want to see changed behavior. That was thrown at me several times. Oh, you just replay what was said to me because I block it out. I'm like, there's this again. But I was like, Yeah, I'm sorry's fine, but what are you gonna do now? Because when I make a mistake, I seek to make repairs, make amends, apologize, and change it. And don't do it again. Because that's what love does. So that's what you want to look for is change behaviors, okay? We're looking for ownership, we're looking for responsibility, we're looking for change behavior. Here's a good one: adjust your expectations. Now, expectations can send people reeling in 50 directions and throwing tomatoes at me. Please just bear with me here. We cannot expect somebody to change overnight. Period at the end. We are wired over time to become a certain way. We've been conditioned and programmed that way. It takes the same to go the opposite direction. And this is that point where if we're seeing somebody work towards it and we're seeing these little bits of blue sky, we're headed some direction. Something's happening here that's different than what was happening. So this is good news. Adjust your expectations of how fast this is going to happen. They are not you. They did not have the same experience as you did. They are not your friend, they are not this other person over here, that all these people being emotionally mature. No, they're them. And this is how they are right now. This is how their brain is right now. It's also about shifting from I'm gonna get it, I'm going to expect them to fully understand me too. They may not ever understand me. And that's okay. You need to understand you. That's what's most important. You need to understand you, you need to validate you, you need to know that this behavior, this treatment is not okay, that it's unhealthy, and that it's harmful. So adjust your expectations. I'm wording this in real time, so I'm I'm staring into space, trying to think of the right words here. Adjust your expectations from how this how the healing should look. Because it may look in a really subtle way, like they catch themselves faster, but they don't apologize. They just approach you differently. I see that as change. I don't need the apology if it means nothing. I want to see the change. That's what I want to see. So when I see that, I was like, okay, that was different. And then I meet them at that. I don't come back with, well, you acted like this, now you're trying to talk to me. Mm-mm. I see that this was a change in the right direction. You guys, it takes a powerful person. It takes a very grounded person to be able to do these things. I understand that. And this is going to require some growth and some evolution on your behalf. Because trust me, I want to be the person with, you know, that would say something like that. Now, this doesn't mean they get to come at me all nice, not on topic. Like all of a sudden they've caught themselves and they're all nice and they're they're like, oh, do you want me to go do this for you or do that for you? And they're just trying to ignore what happened. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about they lowered their voice, they caught themselves. They were the first person to approach this time. They sent a text where they normally would have ghosted me or abandoned. You see what I'm saying? Noticing the small change. Adjust your expectations to what this is supposed to look like. Next one is to strengthen your own regulation. Man, what do I talk about? What do I preach on here? Nervous system regulation. When my I had allowed myself to get sucked so low into these types of behaviors that my nervous system was a wreck. And it would hardly take anything from them. And I was triggered and I was back in it. Even though I knew where it was going, my nervous system was a wreck. Man, I decided that my regulation is number one the most important. Again, returning back to me, returning back to me, returning back to me. Self-love, self-love, self-love, self-love. What do I need? What does Kristen need? I need to call my nervous system. So I did that like it was my job. And guess what? That took also attention away from that person. I went on walks by myself. I did things by myself. And that was taking time away. And then if it was said, I was like, well, I need to regulate my nervous system right now. That requires me to be alone. Oh. That kind of sent up little flags in their head going, oh, they have to spend more time alone when I act the way I act. I don't get to be with them. Hmm. See what I'm saying, you guys? Yeah. They know our magic button. They know it because they've done it before. They know how to get our goat. They know how to make it mad. And the key is to not let somebody else's reactivity pull you in. They've used that button over and over again. Disable and disarm that button. Click those wires. Click. I don't have a button anymore. I'm not going to engage with you. Ground yourself. Pause before responding and refuse to match their chaos with chaos. This is about walking the straight line. Imagine doing just taking a pen and just scribbling all over a piece of paper. Don't lift your pen up, just keep scribbling and scribbling all over that paper. That's what they look like. When you join that, you're doing the same thing. You're scribbling all over that paper. You can't tell who's right, who's wrong, what's up, what's down. And there's no way to unravel it. But when they're doing the scribble and you just draw one straight line down that paper, it's very clear to see who's uh bringing the dysregulation into the situation. Super important. This holds up a mirror to them. They see what they're doing because you're holding up a mirror by refusing to engage. Super important. Emotional maturity is not proven by how well you argue. You can be a lawyer. You can have the best words in the world. Doesn't matter how well you argue. It doesn't matter if you have exhibit A, B, C, D, and E. Emotional maturity is proven by what you allow or refuse to participate in. I love me so much, I'm not going to participate in that behavior anymore. Someone recently was being stark, snasty and snarky to me, and it had been going on for a couple of weeks. I knew this person was nervous about something. And I, you know, I let it go a little bit, but then I finally said, you know what? These weren't the exact words, but I I worded it well and with a good um tone. I said, you know what? Not doing this. I said, it's been you've been really snarky and snappy with me for a couple of weeks. I don't know why. I don't know what you know what I've done to deserve that, but this is not okay with me. So can you please use better language and tone? And this person tried to defend themselves. Well, you did this and you did that, and none of it mattered. I said, I said, none of that warrants that. And they kept going with the defense. I just, I just put my hand up, I said, okay, and I walked away. Within five minutes, a person came back to me and said, I'm sorry for behaving that way. I have put up with way too much for way too long, you all. And I came to a decision in my life where that was no longer gonna happen. I'm loving, I'm kind, I'm gentle, I show up in a healthy way to people, and doggone it, I expect the same in return. And if it's not, I'm gonna call it and I'm gonna remove myself. So please consider that. The next one is, and this is this is where it just doesn't really seem to be getting better. You might want to ask yourself, is this person? I don't know if capable is the word, because I feel like we're all capable. But does this person even have any desire whatsoever to grow? Do I see it anywhere in their life? Or are they just stuck? And here I am, I am what I am, this is what I'm gonna stay. And if not, is this dynamic aligned with my own becoming and the life that I am creating? We don't need to villainize someone to acknowledge the lack of alignment or the disconnection. Again, they're human beings, they're doing the best that they can with the traumas and dramas and experience that they've had, with their conditioning and their programming. The mature move is saying, But is this working for me? Is this working for me? And sometimes the most mature move is not to try to teach someone how to grow and how to hang in there until you're a fragment of the person that you once were, or you're so bombarded with their negativity and attack and all the other things that you just feel like you can't move. Growth is a choice that everybody gets to make in their own time, and some don't make it. No matter what you do, no matter how healthy you show up, no matter how many boundaries you put into place and all these other things. So this is about deciding whether you want to keep yourself in a space that won't hold you and won't support you. Because yes, we talked about a lot of things here today. We talked about a lot. And it's all information for you to do with what you will. And I do recommend if you got something out of this episode today, that you re-listen to it. Re-listen to it. You'll pick up something different every time, and you just might find the strength or the knowledge or the perception shift that you didn't have before. If it resonated, consider that. All right, we're bringing up our very own Miss Jennifer. Welcome, Jennifer. Thank you so much for joining. Hi there. Hi.

Jennifer 1:00:50

Oh my gosh. This, I'm going to re-listen because I've only been able to listen to the last probably 30 minutes. Where you are right now in the talk is where we are with my mom. It's exactly where we are. And I talked to my dad about this this morning, and he was very distressed. He was distressed because he said he wanted to make sure I was okay. My mom does not look at my life and what I do as having the same value as I feel it has. And as my dad and my son and Sam and the rest of us, if I were doing this nice little volunteer work, it would be, oh, look at my daughter. She's generous, she's kind, she's wonderful. If I if it was on the side and I had a corporate job. But because this is my job and I don't get paid and get reimbursed small amounts, to her, it it doesn't count. It's honestly how she feels. It's it's what's important to her. And and it is how she sees me. And it's not entirely positive. And I know she loves me and I know she's proud, but I also know that she is who she is, and she isn't going to change. And I have put in boundaries when she is super negative, which happens because it's who she is right now. She's 83 and and not aging nicely. And there are things that would be hurtful to many people that she says and does. And it's but I told my dad, I'm okay because I know that what she's saying is about her. And yeah, I'm I'm on the receiving end, but but I know it's it's about her and how she feels about success and how she feels about herself aging and how horrible it is for her, and is horrible for her. Right or wrong, she's not accepting it. Right or wrong, she is not going to change. It doesn't matter what my dad says, and it doesn't matter what I say or what Ben says. I have come to be okay with that. Now, when she is in one of her moods or being particularly uncomfortable, there are times I've actually stopped the car because I'm her driver everywhere. And Jim said, Listen. And she hates that sometimes she hates that I have to drive her. She hates it because she wants to do it herself.

Kristen 1:03:09

Right.

Jennifer 1:03:09

She can't. And I will stop and say, Listen, this isn't part of the deal. Most of the time she actually will stop because I'm that I do have boundaries with it. Good for you. But I also know how she feels, and and I feel for Jeanette because there are past. This is not a new feeling she has about success and about me and how I represent her in the world. And I don't. But I used to feel I should, right? I grew up with those expectations and all the shoulds. They were there, and I failed to meet them for so long. Well, guess what, KB? I'm still failing to meet hers. But that's okay. It's okay because I'm I'm okay. I meet my expectations. And I've learned what they are. But man, it's very hard to deal with that. Especially when, as you were just talking about, someone simply isn't going to change. And I was telling and Ben's very frustrated, and I said, you know what? At the end of the day, we have to make a decision. She is who she is. And we either leave or we accept it. And accept it doesn't mean no boundaries. That's right. But it also means a lot of things that work with other people in normal conversations aren't going to happen. And it's going to be frustrating and it's going to be hard. So the decision still remains do we accept it or do we leave? And we're choosing to accept it because that's what we're doing. Yes. And it's what we're doing. And I and I hiked the pyramid trail and I hiked to the top of the front side of South Mountain, and I saw everything and I loved it.

Kristen 1:04:55

Oh, that's right. Yay! Oh my gosh, Jennifer. Oh, I know. Gosh, I wish we could have gotten together. That would have been amazing. What a beautiful share. What a beautiful share. And um, this is how we do, you guys. This is how we do. She had to understand that her mother's values are always going to be different than hers. And this isn't a sign of her worth because she knows her own worth. Yeah, that's a that's really excellent. Thank you so much for that. I did get a couple back channel messages. And um, let me see here. Camille said, I needed this talk today. Everything you're saying speaks to my soul. I'm saving this recording so I can re-listen when needed for my inner strength. Thank you with a big red heart. You are so welcome. I'm so glad that you guys joined me for this conversation today. This is something that we could have over and over and over again. And I do. There's lots of conversations I have on this app regarding this and on my podcast, etc. So I hope that if you got something from this and you Love what you are hearing that you're willing to give a follow or a subscribe or to leave a five-star rating and review in the app store from whatever app you're listening to, whether it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or even if you're listening on Nune Vibe, you can pop over to one of those app stores and help me out, help my podcast get more views because um that's the only way. Okay. So this is a fairly new one that I have over there, a Power Hour with KB. I think it's with Kristen Brown, by the way. It's written out Kristen Brown for the title. And I would super appreciate that. Also, I want you all to know that I have many, many free resources. I have quizzes, I have book, I have workbooks, I have checklists, and all of those can be found here on Nune Vi by clicking my profile picture and clicking where it says my link tree. And if you're listening on a podcasting platform, then you can click the description box and I have that there. Please go check that out. I would love for you to download some free resources. They're very simple, easy, to the point, or help to build you incrementally. They are not long, they're not involved, they're not 50 pages. So go check those out. And it's really fun to take the quizzes too. I want to say thank you to everybody who joined me today because I know that this is a very problematic and difficult situation to be in. It really, really is, but there's ways through it, and there's things we can do, and it's all about reclaiming our personal power and true worth. Jennifer said, I went through a lot of personal pain to get where I am today. It's worth it. Absolutely. I know you did, Jennifer. I know you did. Much love to each and every one of you, and I will be back again tomorrow for another episode of Empower Hour with KB. See you guys then. Bye.