Your brain, personal space & the science of everyday boundaries | with Jenny Day

Personal space shapes our daily lives more than we realise - from crowded commutes to open-plan offices and the subtle ways we signal when things feel “too close.” In this episode of Let’s Talk Health, host Natalie Cook speaks with Psychological Science Learning Facilitator Jenny Day to explore the science behind personal space, stress and why our brains react so strongly to proximity. 

Jenny breaks down how the brain interprets closeness, why our ancient threat systems activate in modern environments, and how anxiety, sensory overload and autonomy influence our comfort around others. Together, they discuss practical ways to recognise your own cues and approach these reactions with more understanding and self-kindness. 

• What “personal space” really means in psychological science 
• How the brain processes proximity, threat and safety 
• Why crowded trains, busy cities and open-plan offices feel overwhelming 
• How the amygdala influences our reactions to closeness 
• The link between anxiety, hypervigilance and larger personal space boundaries 
• Why sensory overload is more common in modern environments 
• How autonomy and control shape comfort levels in social spaces 
• Everyday cues we use to signal “I need more space” 
• Why headphones have become a universal social boundary marker 
• Practical ways to understand your reactions and support your well-being 

Curious and want to learn more about the way our brain works? Our Bachelor of Psychological Science teaches you the skills you need to enter the world of psychology. 

Connect with us and follow our news and stories:
→ Blog and Newsroom: https://www.torrens.edu.au/stories
→ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@torrensuni
→ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/school/torrens-university-australia/
→ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TorrensUni/
→ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/torrensuni

Transcript

Natalie Cook: 0:15

Welcome to Let's Talk Health or I'm your host, Natalie Cook, Director of Innovation, Industry and Employability in Health and Education at Torrens University Australia. On this podcast, you'll hear from experts who'll share their knowledge to help you make more informed choices about your health. This week we're talking about something so integral to our daily life, but we don't always think about. It's personal space. Why can a crowded train ruin your morning? Or why does one friend tense up when someone greets them? Physical proximity feels comfortable for some and really overwhelming for others. But most of us don't know why or where that comes from. So to help answer all this and more, I'm joined today by Jenny Day, learning facilitator in psychology at Torrens University, Australia. Welcome and thanks for joining me this morning, Jenny. Hi, thanks for having me. Pleasure. So many questions, not enough time. Yes. Firstly, I think a lot of people use the phrase personal space.

Jennifer Day: 1:14

What does it mean? So I think that the way most people use it actually isn't too far off how we talk about it in psychology. So from my perspective, I look at it from two different lenses. I look at interpersonal space and I look at peripersonal space. Now, interpersonal space is exactly what you probably think of when you think of personal space. It's how comfortable you feel with others, how close you let other people get to you. This has been known about for a really, really long time. You know, for decades we've kind of talked about this. And you know, we go based off of this idea of kind of like proximic zones around our body, right? So if you think about, you know, further away, that's kind of your public space. That's where we're comfortable letting, you know, strangers. Um, that's where we want to keep people as we pass them on the street. Then a little bit closer in, we have our zone where we kind of let, you know, our close coworkers, acquaintances in general, kind of our social space. Uh, you know, we're willing to talk with people, have people there as we have kind of casual conversations. Then a little bit closer in again, we have what we actually tend to think of as our personal space. And this is kind of reserved for those close friends and family, people we feel really safe with. Um, and then closer again, you know, we have our intimate space, and that's kind of for our, you know, our people who we're in close relationships with, for hugging, kissing, things like that. And, you know, we talk about these kind of in generalities, and sometimes people will put your exact numbers on it, but obviously every single person is going to be different uh in terms of, you know, how comfortable they are letting, you know, a stranger, a friend get to them, and that's entirely normal. Now, in terms of this other word I use peripersonal space, sounds a bit scary, but it's not. Basically, it's another way of looking at that kind of space around our body, except we're really thinking of it in terms of how we are able to process that space in relation to maybe threats in our environment, if we have to protect ourselves. It's the space that our body occupies. So that's the space we need to be on defense for our body. And also just in general, you know, reaching out, grabbing objects and interacting. So it's kind of more about action in that sense. But there's a big overlap between these two spaces in terms of how we understand them. And I think one of the things that's really interesting, particularly, is that our personal space is so tied up with our ability to respond to threat just in general. And, you know, we think about it as being kind of just a natural nor day part of our experience. You know, someone sits a bit too close to me on the bus and I feel a bit uncomfortable after that. But that's actually your threat response kind of going off and saying, like, hey, I could be a little bit unsafe right now. And that's actually a really difficult experience that we have to go through on an everyday basis. Um, you know, having us kind of getting amped up to have to protect ourselves. And so, you know, we have um this little, it's an almond-shaped structure called the amygdala, and we've got one in each of our two hemispheres, so on each side of our brains. And basically, that's very much responsible for a lot of our threat responses. Uh, in a sense, you know, if something scary happens, you know, you come across a lion in your every day or something, it's firing off to sort of scare you, uh to get you into action. And that's about your brain trying to protect you. I tell you something in your environment is important that you need to keep yourself safe from. Um, now some people do have damage to this area for whatever reason, for certain diseases. And what you find is that these people will stand nose to nose with a stranger, looking them straight in the eye and say, Yep, I'm totally comfortable right now. Wow. I cannot even even just the thought of it like makes my skin crawl, having to do that. But um, for these people, you know, they don't find scary movies scary. They might be curious or excited, but not scary. They also tend to struggle to read fearful or negative emotions in others. Okay. Because all these things are about the way we're responding to threat. And so I think it's important to remember, you know, it's kind of not a trivial thing that's going on every day, that we're having to manage how close we are to people, and especially if you're an anxious person, that's something that can really be an additional sort of strain on you throughout the day if you're sort of being in situations where you're forced to be closer to people than you might otherwise like.

Natalie Cook: 5:11

I've heard it explained before will people talk about your fight or flight sort of response and that it's skin, we're built to notice a saber-toothed tiger and know that we should, you know, that's a threat and so we should run around. But we're left with that same biology, the same neurochemistry, that I don't know, a stack of emails that you can't get to or a meeting that you're worried about doing evokes the same response. I mean, how much of us is just that we're hardwired the way we were tens of thousands of years ago?

Jennifer Day: 5:40

This is so, I mean, I try to hammer this into my students all the time. It's like you're dealing with really, really old systems, and these are the things you want working if you come across a Saber-toothed tiger, right? You know, your heart rate jumps up, you know, you're becoming aware of the distance around you between them, you know, your vision gets better, your blood's pumping to extremities because you've got to run or you've got to fight your way out of that situation. And that exact same situation is happening when you're sitting in front of your emails now. The amount of time that modern humans have existed is like a tiny little blick. And the amount of times we've existed with emails as well, even smaller. Our brains have not caught up. And so it's really, really difficult. And I think especially now that we a lot of us live in cities, there's no other time in history where you would be exposed to this volume of strangers. You know, we've been built around living in small family groups to exist where you know everybody. And so you you can manage proximity a lot more consistently if you're in situations where you know other people, you know their intentions towards you. Part of the reason why we keep strangers away from us is because something very, very deep down is saying, Well, I don't know that person. I don't know if they're gonna, you know, throw a punch at me. So I've got to keep away. That gives me time to respond to that. And you so now if you're you know heading to work and you're now going to, you know, you're getting on the train, you're heading into the city, going on Flinder Street, that's something that's constantly being, uh, you know, your amygdala firing off constantly because you've just got so many people uh around you who you're having to, you know, automatically without even kind of consciously thinking about your brain saying, is that person safe? Is that person safe? Is that person safe?

Natalie Cook: 7:14

I've got a picture in my mind almost of like the determinator, you know, as you have got this connection where you're looking at people having to identify if they're a threat or not. But I guess that's what you're saying we're doing on a daily basis. Absolutely, yeah. How near or far they are to you will impact someone far away that looks a bit random, don't care, but someone that's getting in your face is a is a could be is a is a real threat. What how did you get into this in the first place?

Jennifer Day: 7:50

What sparked your interest? I think part of it was a little bit of luck that I kind of saw that there was this research project going on, and it's like, hey, that is kind of interesting. But I think it more speaks to what I think is really, really cool about psychology in general, where we can take these really mundane, boring things that we all experience in everyday life, and then you kind of get the opportunity to look under the hood and say, okay, well, how is this actually happening? And it's usually way more complicated and way more interesting than you expect. And so as soon as I started delving into this, and you've got so many common experiences. I mean, from a starting point, if I look around in my environment, if anyone looks around, it's not like we have this, you know, floating big circle that says, all right, this is personal space, this is not. It's not clearly marked like lines exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But if I go and say to you, like, oh, someone was in my personal space bubble, you immediately know what I miss. Yes. And we all have this shared understanding. And part of it is because we're all dealing with these same systems that are registering the world in this very particular way, because our brain is wired to help us make sense of our environment. And it was a really cool experience saying, like, hey, you know, I feel a bit bad when I get off the bus in the morning and it's been a crammed carriage, and I've had, you know, three people bumping into me every time that we've uh made a turn or something. And then to go and read articles where people are talking about, hey, actually, after being forced to sit next to a stranger on the train, your cortisol levels are higher. Wow. You're performing worse on certain work tasks afterwards. And part of it is just validating that, like, oh wow, you know, I'm having this experience, and this is actually, you know, a part of the human experience more generally. But it's just a really interesting way to be able to understand something in every day. And I think to appreciate how cool our brains are, and that they have a really difficult job to do. The amount of information, actually, this is one thing when people talk about uh something like you know, chat GPT being similar to a human. It's like ChatGPT is probably not built on nearly as much data as the human brain is experiencing. The human brain is the most complex system in the known universe. There is nothing that even approaches it. And we all walk around with one in our heads. Wow. And it's really, really incredible when you think about the amount of you know visual information every single second. You know, if you're a normally sighted person, you're having a barrage of images that your brain is able to make sense of like that. That's huge, you know, auditory information. You're hearing sounds all the time, and you're able to interpret something as complicated as language from that. There's so much information going on, and I guess psychology gives us the opportunity to take that and say, okay, well, this one little piece of the puzzle, how does this work?

Natalie Cook: 10:24

It's I've got so many questions I want to ask just off what you've said there. One is around just you were saying about the volume of content that we're processing that we're seeing or hearing, and it made me think about when you try to meditate. Yes. And suddenly you're like, oh good, I'm just concentrating on my breath, and then suddenly you become aware of how much noise there is, or how many different things are in your side, or what's going on in your own brain as well. I mean, is that I mean, are there multiple things going on all at once in all of our brains, or are people do just because it's crazy making stuff sometimes for people, I think. Yes.

Jennifer Day: 11:00

No, absolutely. Like that's the thing as well. We have a very sort of small pool of resources that we can use to actually say, do a task, you know, to actually do something. And so our brain is taking in all of the sensory information constantly. It's sight, it's our sound, it's anything that is touching us at any point. You know, you haven't probably thought about the feeling of your clothes on your body since you put them on this morning, but that's all there. And you just don't think about it until I mention it, right? And I think that it does seem so overwhelming, but that's what our brains are so good at. It's filtering, it's selecting. And you know, if you're someone who struggles with that and has um, say, sensory processing issues, but you're not sort of filtering that out, that is a really overwhelming experience. And again, title back to modern life always, there's so much more information now than at any point in history. And so when you say, like, you know, about about meditating and that being a really important tool that can help you cope with stressful situations, we're also doing it under really difficult circumstances. And so you can suddenly feel all these different things, these different thought processes, different feelings in your body that you've been tuning out all this time. And that's because finally you kind of have the space to process that, which we don't get a lot nowadays.

Natalie Cook: 12:22

I was gonna say people love them or hate them. I don't know that there's many lovers of an open plan office. But how do you that's the world, right? Yeah. So how do we work with things like that where people do need to commute, or we've got workplaces that do expect people to work in open plan offices? Are there ways either us as individuals, I guess there's different perspectives, the individual that feels that. The consideration is look, I don't feel that, but I know some people might, yeah, or the obligation of an employer. So from those different lenses, what can we do about that?

Jennifer Day: 12:54

So I think this is a really interesting topic. And as a you know, avid complainer of some of the stresses of open plan offices, I guess, I mean, the idea around them is that they promote collaboration, they promote a lot more interaction, and there are benefits to that. You know, we want to feel socially connected in workplaces. Those benefits tend to be more felt by people who are a bit more extroverted, more comfortable in social situations. Uh, and that's something as well that does impact your personal space. People who are extroverted seem to be a little bit happier to have people kind of closer to them and up in their space. For those who are more introverted, they can be a little bit of a nightmare because you've got this constant social pressure, especially like if you're working, you know, sometimes you just want to have your space that you can sit there. Um I think even, you know, even in like a hot desking situation, we usually have our desk and that's our space, and it's not very pleasant when somebody seems to take our desk. From I guess that kind of you know management perspective, how we build these spaces. I've always been really interested in this concept. It's called socio architecture, which basically means how we build spaces are based on the kinds of social interactions we expect in them. And you have two types of spaces. You have sociopedal spaces, and these ones are where you're expecting people to interact. So think like conference table, you have a big round table, you have everyone sitting around it, they're facing each other, they're talking. Exactly. And that's what we want in those situations because we want people to feel comfortable talking to each other and all an equal part of that conversation. Then you have sociofugal spaces, which are where we don't want interactions, where you kind of give people places to hide. So that might be chairs facing away from each other, it might mean structural things like pillars in the environment to kind of break up your um eye space. And what that provides for somebody who is um, you know, maybe just needs that extra additional feeling of safety, is maybe not as interested in kind of having these constant social interactions, it gives them those places to hide where they can find their little niche to um recover, to sort of break up that part of the day and take away some of that stress. And I think if we're gonna say that maybe there are benefits to having open planner offices, at least it would be nice to kind of also incorporate some of these ideas so that for people who do need that additional space, they have those opportunities to go and find that comfort. Now, in terms of kind of, you know, well, as say a coworker, how can I help my coworkers who are feeling uncomfortable? People are actually really, really good at this just automatically in some ways. And one of the behaviors I think is really funny that you see people do a lot is uh they'll start building their own barriers. So, you know, you might notice somebody's, oh, they're putting their um their coat on the table in between you. They're putting their bag on the table in between you. And it's basically a way of trying to create a buffer zone because if we have an object in our environment, that gives us a feeling of safety. Like there's physical separation now between me and other people's. So I guess noticing those cues, also just the lean when someone's, you know, just trying to kind of uh make that space for themselves, even if they're stuck sitting next to each other. I think as well, don't take it personally, you know, everyone's different. So it's not about saying that, you know, this person doesn't like you. Oftentimes I think for people who are doing these things and seeking that space, it can feel kind of uncomfortable because you don't want to be rude. You know, you you might really like this person, but you just don't have the energy today. Or you're really, really stressed and you just need that additional space just for today at least. And so it's about just being responsive to that and saying, okay, can I make a little bit more space for this person? And I think another modern illustration we have that both for physical space but also social space, we have this kind of almost universal cue of the headphones. Yes. Um I actually think that that's great. It's you know, this very implicit symbol of right now I need to be in my own space, in my own head, and I'm not open for social contact. And I think we should kind of embrace that in a really positive way. It's a good thing that we have um that way of marking that space and respecting that and saying, okay, that person is, you know, they're doing their work, they're having their them time. It's not a time for me to kind of interrupt that.

Natalie Cook: 16:50

That's super interesting because I do think that if I see people, particularly now that the evolution's gone from you know tiny earphones to actually quite over over the ear type ones, and they are like a bit of a sign. It's like don't talk to me. I'm I'm clearly doing something else, and whether you're not you are or not, but just having that as a sign. Is there uh you mentioned that the feelings, I guess, of I don't know if I'm putting words in your mouth or not, but or of anxiety that someone coming into your personal space can cause. Chicken and egg kind of question. What comes first? Might someone have an issue with uh a history of anxiety or that's a challenge to them, and so therefore that makes personal space a challenge, or is it the other way around? Does the personal space uh recognition come first?

Jennifer Day: 17:34

It's absolutely both. So one thing we find is that people who are very anxious just by nature, they will have these larger regions. But the other thing is that these spaces are also responsive to threat. So if you're in a really dangerous situation, you can be the most neurotypical person, you know, not at all anxious, pretty chill person, but you know, you see you see a mountain lion in your path, then your space pushes outwards. And that's because, you know, our threat systems are alerting us, and that's a part of the way that we deal with these. We want to make space. And so what that means is that it's kind of this constant interaction. Uh, because I guess at the end of the day, what anxiety is, it's hypervigilance for threats. So you have this much lower threshold for saying there's something dangerous in my environment. And so something that's ambiguous, you might be more likely to say is dangerous, or you're just kind of constantly on guard, looking around to check. And so what that means is that at baseline, you're existing in this more threatened state. And so you're going to have this expanded region as well.

Natalie Cook: 18:40

Are there any other cues we should look for in people? I think the headphones is a good example of someone's giving us a cue, they're leaning away, you know, you're in my space, sort of a thing, or just taking a step. Any other sorts of more subtle cues?

Jennifer Day: 18:56

I think a lot of it is coming down to kind of body posture communication in terms of what people show. I think sometimes people are pretty bad at making more overt indications. So a lot of it is that kind of turning away, especially if you're in a situation where you can't necessarily leave. But I think as well, so some of the area that I was really interested in researching is the role of control in all of this. Sometimes the only thing you can control in a situation is where your body is situated while it's happening. And so, how does that impact how threatening a situation is, how difficult a situation is? And so I think as well, if you're concerned about somebody else maybe needing more space, is maybe trying to let them kind of set that zone for you a little bit. So if what I found is that if a person was, you know, given more control over their distance from someone else, it seemed to actually uh draw their comfort distance closer. So just by virtue of having more control in that situation, they were able to feel more comfortable in it. Even though this the actual, you know, people, the emotions of those people, those were all the same. But they were basically finding, I basically what I was finding is that they were um letting them closer in. So I think that that's a part of it is trying to find ways that you can make sure that people have some degree of control, especially if there's someone who's particularly anxious or seems to have the a need for a further distance than you do.

Natalie Cook: 20:20

That notion of control or agency, is that if that's the right, yeah. So it seems to come up in a lot of things. I don't know, I was reading a paper about uh satisfaction in jobs, actually, and saying one of the something that correlates highly to people being satisfied in their job is if they feel they've got a sense of autonomy or control in how they work. Are there other areas where sense of having a sense of control impacts how you experience it?

Jennifer Day: 20:48

Absolutely, and it is talked about a lot in terms of job satisfaction because that kind of autonomy or agency, it's seen as a really fundamental human motivator. And it vastly changes our perspective on a situation, just how much control we actually have over being there. And so I guess I was really interested in looking at it from that perspective, you know, how does that relate to our overall anxiety? But um certainly in terms of how likely we are to persist with something, keep doing a job, if we feel that we have some sense of control, that's going to mean a lot to us. You know, and they've even done studies, I remember, looking at uh old age care and how many health benefits you can have by just feeling like you have some kind of control over your environment. So it's one of those really subtle ways that we can get a sense of meaning from our lives, I think as well. And it's really important to make sure that we're in environments where our ability to meaningfully make changes are something that are being fostered and encouraged. You know, I want to have a sense that when I do something, that whatever outcome comes is because I did that thing. And if I don't have that, that can be, you know, what's the point of doing anything, right? If you don't feel like your actions are making a meaningful difference.

Natalie Cook: 21:59

And I wonder, as you say that, whether well-being at work is very topical and some of the interventions are around, you know, mindfulness or well-being type tools. But I wonder when you say that whether some of the solutions are in some of the things we've exactly spoken about, giving people, you know, how do people have more of a sense of perceived or real autonomy in their role? How do we give people spaces they feel safe to work in? Yes, yeah.

Jennifer Day: 22:23

And I I think as well, like one thing at Torrance University, like there's a lot of flexibility in the way that you can work. And I think that's really beneficial as well, especially when we're talking about things like you know, having open plan offices or hot desking some of the stresses of just existing in the world, coming to work every day, and what that can mean for you. I think it's really, really great that we're now sort of encouraging a lot more flexibility in terms of how people can work because it allows them to foster the environments that they're gonna feel most comfortable in. So even just saying you're a few days a week, you can work from home and giving people the space to control that, that's something that can be really impactful for people. If you're someone who's feeling overwhelmed getting off the train in the morning and you know that you're having a really rough time at the moment, you know, you're very, very stressed, being able to say, hey, actually, I'm gonna work from home today. I'm going to take that one stressor out of my life at least as I do my job. I think that can be really, really powerful for people.

Natalie Cook: 23:21

Right from the outset, I think you you agree that there's a pop culture almost, it's understanding of, you know, you're in my personal space or that person's a close talker. You know, it's in sitcoms, people make jokes about it, it's it's everywhere. So it's really something that we all know about, whether we think we know about it or not, and we all experience it. Was there anything in as you obviously delved into this in intimate detail, anything that surprised you that you didn't know intuitively, that you went, huh?

Jennifer Day: 23:52

I think uh sort of the thing, and it's probably why I mention it so much, is the how tied up it is as a source of threat in our life, how it's all about us finding ways to feel safe, really. And I think that's something that really resonates with me because I think oftentimes people can be really, really harsh on themselves and on their brains by, you know, saying, like, why am I feeling like this? Like, oh, it's ridiculous to act like I feel bad going into work because I had somebody nudge me on the train or something. But I think that we could be a little bit more compassionate to our brains in general. We're dealing with a situation that it's absolutely not sort of made for. And there are so many things that we're trying to cope with every day, and our brain's main job a lot of the time is just trying to keep us safe, to do its best to make sense of our environment and keep us safe. And so it can be really frustrating if all of a sudden we're feeling very stressed out or overwhelmed in situations that logically shouldn't evoke that. But to our brain, this is all logical. The system is trying to keep you safe from the mountain line, and it's just unfortunate that it's also making you want to cry over an email or making you want to stay at home because the train's just too overwhelming. But yeah, I think a little bit of compassion can go a long way.

Natalie Cook: 25:06

I love that. I think that the notion that just this conversation has made me think about is that it's these are normal things. Like I said, our brains are just trying to protect us. And if we come at it with that lens and be a bit kinder to ourselves about why we might react in ways that we don't think we should or someone else doesn't, then I think just that kindness to self, I think, is what I'm hearing. And I think that's a really that's a beautiful approach to have. I think it's something practical that at least if you can stop and just have a moment to be kind to yourself, then it sounds like that can shut down some of moderate some of the responses at least a bit.

Jennifer Day: 25:41

And yeah, I think as well that kindness can go a long way to letting you access some of the tools. If you normally go into work on a particular day, but this day you don't feel like you can do it, and you just need that day at home to sort of recharge and recover and just work from your safety of your home. Doing that every now and then, don't be harsh on yourself about that. Give yourself the kindness to say, I'm feeling stressed and overwhelmed, and so I need to have my little bit of rest. And that's normal. It's not something that is unreasonable. So yeah, I think it's kindness to yourself to be compassionate when you don't feel like you're maybe performing in the ways that you would like, but also kindness to access the tools that might actually help you get there.

Natalie Cook: 26:21

I love it. I've found this so interesting. Thank you so much for your time today. No, thank you so much for having me, Matt. My pleasure. And a disclaimer the information discussed in this podcast is for general information purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. The content should not be relied on as a substitute for professional health care. And if you have any concerns about your health or please do consult a qualified healthcare professional