Episode 10: A Taste of Jerk Chicken with Jonathan Bateman, Founder/CEO Real Recognizes Real AI

"I'm a huge fruit snacks person. I don't really do much candy anymore, but I love fruit snacks." Jonathan Bateman, secure-software developer and founder of deepfake detection platform Real Recognizes Real AI, on the one childhood food obsession he never outgrew.

In this episode of Founders Fridge, host Heidi Knoblauch talks with Jonathan about building technology that verifies real humans using something AI can't fake: shared memories. They discuss how a Star Trek storyline about changelings inspired his approach to stopping fraud, why the CEO of Ferrari avoided a deepfake scam by asking about a book recommendation, and what it's like to build a startup while finishing dual degrees at RIT.

Jonathan grew up in Colorado as a soccer player with a naturally thin frame, which meant his mom was strict about calories. Three thousand a day. Oatmeal, protein shakes, eggs, and bacon for breakfast. Packed lunches with peanut butter and honey sandwiches made with local Colorado honey because he never liked jelly. Chips in the lunch pail. His dad had a serious sweet tooth and would sneak to Walmart every Friday for Twizzlers and Mike and Ikes, a secret candy run his no-sugar mom didn't approve of. Now he's on a jerk chicken kick, experimenting with Caribbean seasoning in his stepmom's air fryer, which he describes as "sorcery." His mornings start with Chobani yogurt, chia seeds, and fresh berries. He eats to live, not the other way around, but he still has the foodie essence in him.

When things go well at Real Recognizes Real AI, he celebrates with Chick-fil-A. When things aren't going well? Rice and beans. For multiple meals straight.

Listen for:

• The Friday candy ritual his dad kept secret from his mom
• Why peanut butter and honey beats peanut butter and jelly
• The air fryer and pressure cooker combo that gets dinner done in minutes
• How his mom is now building her own startup and they eat dinner together at the office

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Transcript

Heidi: Jonathan, it is so awesome to have you on Founders Fridge.

Jonathan: Hi, thanks so much for having me.

Heidi: Can you tell me a little bit about what you're building?

Jonathan: Yes. So I'm the founder and CEO of Real Recognizes Real AI, or Real X Real for short. And we essentially do deepfake detection for everyone from grandmas to CEOs, powered by what AI can't fake—our shared memories.

Heidi: Awesome. Wait, can you say a little bit more about that? That is so cool.

Jonathan: Yeah. So for example, like right now we're on a video conferencing call. And there's no solution currently on the market that allows just the average person to verify that the person that they're speaking with over phone, video, FaceTime, whether or not they're actually a deepfake and whether they're the real person that you know in real life.

Heidi: Wow. So how do you do that? So like, how do you—like, what's the method? You said by our shared memories?

Jonathan: Exactly. So I grew up and I still am like a huge sci-fi fan. And I've wondered since I've been trying to solve this issue, how did, you know, twenty, thirty years ago, how did the great sci-fi writers solve the issue of deepfakes and doppelgangers and clones in their stories without, you know, padding their protagonists with plot armor? The primary way they solve these issues, like, for example, my mom's a huge Trekkie. There's a whole storyline about the changelings. And you know, one of the crew members asked another crew member, you know, what do we do together when we were in cadet school? And of course, the shapeshifter can't answer that question, because it wasn't actually there, even though it sounds and looks like the person that you know and love.

Heidi: That is so cool. So who uses it? Who uses this platform?

Jonathan: Yeah, so the idea basically is to make RealXReal an open source, free to use, secure contacts app. So it doesn't matter if you use Android or iOS, but essentially your default contacts app will be replaced by RealXReal. So instead of just having name, phone number, email, maybe address, you'd have name, phone number, email, and a shared memory with that person. And that way, if something is ever kind of, as the kids say, sus, you can just send them a live challenge request to verify and authenticate that they are who they say they are.

Heidi: So they're not like a—what did you say, a cyborg?

Jonathan: I mean, in the sci-fi sense, yes. But in today's world, it's essentially just a deepfake. It only takes about three seconds of audio to create a realistic deepfake. And we're seeing issues and situations where people like, you know, family members are being targeted, you know, mothers and sons. There's been multiple cases of a, "Hey, Mom, I just got into a car accident. I need five hundred bucks for bail," or, you know, "I got to pay insurance," whatever—all the way up to the CEO of Ferrari was deepfaked on a call. And what's really interesting is in that situation with Ferrari, one of the executives actually asked the CEO a question. He was like, "What was the book that you recommended to me last week?" And the deepfake couldn't answer it. So it's actually worked in practice in the real world.

Heidi: Wow, that's awesome. All right, so we're going to get to food in a second, but I just want to talk about entrepreneurship and just your entrepreneurial journey. So is this the first thing that you've started?

Jonathan: Not quite. So I actually got my first kind of stint in the startup world when I was fifteen. It's actually the first cold email I ever sent. It was to a startup in San Francisco called Maracana.ai. And they were essentially doing soccer challenges for MLS, Major League Soccer fan bases to try and help engage the audience because soccer isn't as popular in the US as the NBA or as the NFL. So they were like, well, how can we help engage audiences of these football clubs to help them, you know, get more tickets sold and things like that. So I essentially did a remote internship with the CEO and the CTO, kind of just like shadowing them, testing the product. I grew up as a soccer player. I still watch the Premier League every weekend. So I kind of brought this experience, if you will, at fifteen years old of a soccer fan, a soccer player, someone who knew the game, could juggle a bunch because they had like a little AI model where you could do little juggling tricks and get points for it and like kind of compete against other fans.

Heidi: Cool. So as a soccer player, I mean, this kind of leads right into food, right? So, you know, so I guess, like when you were playing soccer, when you were a kid, you know, what were your kind of family traditions around food and, you know, just what was your relationship with food when you were growing up?

Jonathan: Yeah, so I can't not talk about my dad's sweet tooth. I mean, every Friday he would always get my sister and I candy. So that was like a big highlight of the week. My mom was like no candy whatsoever. But my dad would always like sneak to Walmart or something. Always have like Twizzlers or—he was a big fan of Mike and Ikes. So like that Friday, you know, pizza and candy was like a big thing. But I would say throughout the week, I was always like—being an athlete, a student athlete growing up, it was really about how do I get high calorie, high protein meals three times a day. And my mom was like really, really strict about making sure I got enough calories in because I have a naturally kind of thin body. So I had to make sure I kind of got closer to three thousand calories. So it was like oatmeal and then a protein shake and then eggs and then bacon, you know, for breakfast. And then lunch—I always grew up actually having my mom pack my lunch, right?

Heidi: Oh, that's cool. Like, so what was—like, what did it look like? Like, what was in the lunch?

Jonathan: Yeah, so typically it was—I don't know if anyone else like has eaten this—but it was peanut butter and honey.

Heidi: All right.

Jonathan: Because I didn't really like jelly growing up. So I was like, I don't really like jelly, but peanut butter and honey was actually really good. And especially like living in Colorado, like we have like natural honey that you can get at the store from local farmers and things like that. So that was a very fond memory. And then chips in my lunch pail. And I'm a huge fruit snacks person. I don't really do much candy anymore, but I love fruit snacks.

Heidi: Do you know what? I feel like when I was a kid and there were fruit snacks that had those like opaque ones, they almost like—you know what I mean? They're not like that see-through, they're like that gummy.

Jonathan: Yeah. That's wild.

Heidi: Yeah, wild. Oh, okay. So this whole thing with your dad sneaking you candy on Fridays—was your mom like a health nut?

Jonathan: Yes. Very much so. And I think it was really stemming from the fact that I had to eat a lot to keep my weight up for sports. So she wanted those calories to be nutritious calories. She didn't want me just eating junk all the time. So she was like very particular about what I ate during the week, and then Friday was kind of dad's day to like let loose a little bit.

Heidi: So what about now? Like, do you have a sweet tooth now?

Jonathan: I would say not as much. I mean, I still love fruit snacks. That's kind of my go-to if I want something sweet. But I'm not really big on candy anymore. I think I kind of grew out of it.

Heidi: What's your fruit snack of choice?

Jonathan: Welch's. The Welch's gummies are like—

Heidi: Okay.

Jonathan: —chef's kiss. That is the move.

Heidi: I'm writing this down. Welch's gummies. Okay. So, all right, so now you're an adult, you're building this company. What does food look like for you now?

Jonathan: Yeah, so I would say I'm very much in like the functional eating phase of my life right now. Like I eat to fuel my body so I can work on the company. So mornings are usually Chobani yogurt with chia seeds and fresh berries—like blueberries or strawberries. And then throughout the day it's kind of whatever I can make quickly. My stepmom has an air fryer and a pressure cooker, so I can get meals done in like three to five minutes, which is kind of wild.

Heidi: Yeah.

Jonathan: And then dinner is usually—so my mom is actually working on her startup right now too, so we'll usually do dinner together at the office, which has been kind of fun to do.

Heidi: It's cool.

Jonathan: Or if I'm out late, then I'll usually come home and cook something for myself. I mean, I've been kind of on a chicken craze lately. It's just—

Heidi: What does that mean? What does that mean? Just like cooking a chicken breast or you're getting inventive with the chicken?

Jonathan: Yeah, just cooking a chicken breast. Like the recipe I sent you was actually for like this jerk chicken recipe thing that I've been doing and experimenting with. And I actually brought, just so you could see it, this little seasoning mix that is like savory.

Heidi: Oh, there we go.

Jonathan: Yeah. So it's basically just like a Caribbean jerk mix. Because my dad recently got remarried and his wife, she has kind of been doing like these different chicken meals that are seasoned differently. And she got—she bought an air fryer, they got an air fryer as a wedding gift or something. So I'm just like trying to mess around with that. And I don't know, it's just like sorcery, the air fryer.

Heidi: I know. I don't even understand it.

Jonathan: It is sorcery.

Heidi: Yes, it's totally sorcery. All right, so if something goes really well with the company, like you're celebrating, either you got an investment—are you raising money? Or have you—I guess, have you raised money?

Jonathan: Not formally, no. I've been thinking about it. I definitely think RealXReal is venture scale. I'm a big fan of the product-led growth model. And it's funny because growing up, I always thought that's what entrepreneurship was—you know, you grow as you sell more products. I do think it is venture scale, and I'm trying to navigate—and maybe that's one of my lessons learned so far—is really what does a VC want and finding investors who align with your values and the values of your company. I want Real Recognizes Real to be a public benefit corporation. And one of the primary missions is stopping fraud and deepfakes. And that really being the deciding factor as to how decisions are made within the company is what best serves people and best stops this issue, which may not always be something that is directly profit driven.

Heidi: Totally. So what is the best thing that's happened in the company recently?

Jonathan: I would say actually getting the demo done, getting the MVP done. I'm a security nerd, so sometimes I get obsessed with like backend security stuff because I'm like, it has to be secure. I don't want anything to go wrong, especially being a security company. Like, it'd be terrible PR. But it was like, okay, let me just get the demo out. So at least for my pitch decks, I can have a little demo ready. So like just having that done has been really cool. So people can see the proof of concept. And it's perfect because I'm headed to a conference in December for like a major anti-scam conference. And I can't wait to kind of show these different stakeholders in KYC—know your customer—and anti-fraud and money laundering, like kind of what the product can do and the vision for it. So that's been a big win.

Heidi: And so in that big win, what did you eat to celebrate?

Jonathan: I think I got Chick-fil-A.

Heidi: That's awesome. That's awesome. And when something's going not so well, so like what was the latest, you know, not failure you had—that's not what I would say—but the latest hardship you had with the company?

Jonathan: Definitely for my most recent deck, just trying to do the TAM, SAM, and SOM. I just, like, labored over for, like, three days. So it was just, like, it wasn't even white rice. It was brown rice. Like, that's how bad it was.

Heidi: Are you just, like, crushing Welch's gummies while you're doing that or eating pizza or, you know, consoling yourself in some way?

Jonathan: No. I mean, it was probably, like, just rice, beans.

Heidi: Okay.

Jonathan: You know, for multiple meals straight.

Heidi: There you go. There you go. Yeah. It's interesting. There are some founders who, you know, when things are not going so well, they either stop eating—or they, which makes sense, or they eat like really greasy food. But then there are other founders who tell me like, oh no, in those times I gotta eat spinach. Like, I gotta eat rice. So that's interesting. You're like that in between where you're like, I have to have fast, nutritious food.

Jonathan: Yes, exactly. Because I need the pressure.

Heidi: Okay, the pressure. My stepmom has an air fryer and a pressure cooker so I can get—

Jonathan: Oh yeah, like three minutes. It's weird. Like three or five.

Heidi: Pressure cooker—we have a pressure cooker. I have to tell you, it is like a game changer.

Jonathan: A game changer for sure. As just busy people cooking. Other than rice though, I guess. That's what I don't know.

Heidi: Yeah. So my wife cooks. I have to tell you. So listeners of this podcast will know that I am an extremely spoiled individual. So I used to own a restaurant. And when I had the restaurant, you know, food became kind of very connected to work. A chef would quit and I would have to be in the kitchen for a couple of weeks or whatever. And so food for me, I'm not really into the cooking anymore. It's not meditative to me. Part of this podcast is actually to try to get myself to be more excited about cooking. But my wife is so excited about cooking. It's insane. Like last night she made me these Vietnamese-inspired chicken wings, like some rice—and I'm not even doing it justice—and then like this amazing kind of like creamy sauce that I could dip these wings in. I'm gonna text you a photo of this. It was like absolutely insane. So she cooks a lot of things in the rice cooker and I have no idea what they are.

Jonathan: That's fair. That's fair. I think, you know, it's lentils a lot of times or whatever, but I'm not cooking anything in this pressure cooker, which is embarrassing.

Heidi: Yeah. She'll tell me. Go ahead.

Jonathan: I was going to say, one thing I will say, though, is hearing you describe the meals, I can tell that you still have that foodie essence about you.

Heidi: Ooh, there you go.

Jonathan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just want to say you haven't lost it. You haven't lost it.

Heidi: Yeah, okay, that's good. I just need to tap into it. All right, so what are you going to have for dinner tonight?

Jonathan: Tonight will probably be barbecue chicken that's in the fridge already cooked in Tupperware. And I have to cook some rice with it because there's no rice made.

Heidi: There you go. But it's going to be that four-minute rice or whatever, that nine-minute rice.

Jonathan: Yeah, whatever the pressure cooker says. That's right.

Heidi: And then if we looked in your fridge—I ask everybody—if I looked in your fridge right now, like, what would we see?

Jonathan: So definitely Chobani yogurt.

Heidi: For your chia seeds in the morning.

Jonathan: Yes, yes. Chobani and then chia seeds are in the pantry. Fresh blueberries, fresh strawberries, some orange juice, almond milk. There's oat milk in there. I think my dad bought that. There's oat milk in there. There is always like some sort of vegetable like zucchini. Like my stepmom cooks with like a lot of zucchini and things like that or squash. There's avocado oil butter. My dad's trying to be more healthy. Actually, it's not bad. It's not bad. And then bread and a couple other things in there.

Heidi: Yeah. That's awesome. So for our final question, do you eat to live or do you live to eat?

Jonathan: I definitely think I eat to live.

Heidi: I eat to live. Me too. Yeah.

Jonathan: I'm hoping to change it. I'm hoping to change it one day. Maybe after the post-startup, you know, because I actually do love—I do love cooking in the sense that I love cooking shows. Like some of my favorite documentaries are cooking related. So I like seeing other people live to eat.

Heidi: Yeah, that's right. That's right. All right. Well, Jonathan, it was awesome to have you on. Thank you so much for being on Founders Fridge.

Jonathan: Thank you so much for having me.

Heidi: And don't forget that you still have it. You still got it. You still got that foodie essence.

Jonathan: The foodie essence. Okay, good. Cool.

[End of Episode]