Find Your Fuel

Episode 22: Late Stage Pregnancy Loss and Navigating Grief with Amy Cantwell

• Erin Martin • Episode 22

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In this episode, we’re joined by Amy Cantwell, who shares her deeply moving story of losing her first daughter, Anne, at 28 weeks. Amy walks us through the raw reality of that experience—from the intuitive feeling that something was wrong to the physical and emotional toll of the days that followed. 

She talks about working through the profound loss by grounding herself in truth and finding unique rituals to manage her grief. Our conversation also follows her subsequent path through self-advocacy and an IVF journey that eventually led to the birth of her daughter, Callie. Join us as we explore the complexities of motherhood, the importance of listening to your intuition, and the strength it takes to thrive after the unthinkable.


Resources from this episode can be found at: https://www.fuelwitherin.com/podcast/v/episode-22-trusting-your-intuition-and-navigating-grief-with-amy-cantwell


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Disclaimer: The information provided in this podcast and its show notes is for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended as medical advice or as a substitute for the advice of a physician or other healthcare professional. Using this information does not create a doctor-patient relationship.

Do not use this information to diagnose or treat any health problem or to prescribe any medication or treatment. Always consult with a qualified healthcare professional before making changes to your diet, exercise routine, or medications, or before starting any herbal or nutritional supplements. Statements regarding dietary supplements have not been evaluated by the FDA and are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. The use of any information provided is solely at your own risk. This disclaimer also applies to any of the guests on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00

It's so interesting because in my life before I lost my daughter, I know knew two other people who had late stage, one back when I was 20, and you just don't make the connection. And then one a few years before me, who was a friend of ours. But you never think it's going to happen to you. And then since then, it's just like this world opened and all these people came out of the woodwork of like, oh yeah, I've been through that. And you're like, why didn't I know?

SPEAKER_02

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Find Your Fuel. I'm your host, Aaron Martin. And today we're joined by Amy Cantwell, who shares her story of losing her first daughter, Anne, at 28 weeks. And so she walks us through the raw reality of that experience and how she worked through the profound loss and then navigated an IVF journey that eventually led to the birth of their daughter, Callie. I've personally known Amy from our shared world of marketing, but this is the first time we've had a deeply vulnerable conversation about resilience, self-advocacy, and the complex journey of motherhood.

SPEAKER_00

In June 2021, I lost my daughter at 28 weeks. She was my first kiddo. I was, I'll give my age, I was 38. Uh, it took me a while, obviously, to get pregnant. I late stage marriage, all of that fun stuff. Um, and then we're expecting a baby and uh super easy pregnancy. Um, I was expecting morning sickness and everything that like most people get, no problem. Um, active, joyful, uh, super stoked, planning a baby shower, um, planning obviously having her um had gifts already showing up at our door. And it was Memorial Day weekend 2021. And I woke up in the middle of the night, and she was more nightly active than um what I was expecting. And I had a weird feeling. She gave me like three big kicks, and I was like, well, that's funky. Um and I felt very intuitive with her. And in the back of my mind, I'm like, something's up, right? But first time mom, you just don't realize it. Um, so I internalized it for 24 hours. Um, and then that Monday night, I was like, something's definitely wrong. And I tried drinking orange juice. I tried everything. I remember in the middle of the night sobbing under a bed, going, I think something's wrong. Because you couldn't feel her. I couldn't feel her anymore. Um, she the way she had actually like settled into my stomach was really weird. Um, and I was like, this just doesn't feel right. But you don't think about it.

SPEAKER_02

Um never been pregnant before, you don't know everything is new and weird. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And you're like reading books and you're on TikTok and you're like, oh, this is normal. And like they take days off. And you know, it's you just don't, but like the intuition, I just I think it's a lesson I'm constantly learning, which is to pay attention to my intuition a little bit faster than I have been. Um, so the next morning we go to the hospital. Uh I will probably cry on this one. Um, I'm walking in with my husband, and the lady's like, oh, you're here from eternity, because clearly I'm showing. Um and I'm like, Yep, here from eternity. And she's like, Oh my gosh, you're gonna have a great labor. Like, good luck. And I was like, in my face, I was like, Oh, you don't know. Right. And that was my first instinct of like how much we don't know about somebody. Anyhow, uh, I'm in triage and uh they're looking for a heartbeat. And as they're looking for the heartbeat, this woman in active later labor walks by with her older kid. And, you know, she's moaning and groaning and, you know, doing that thing. And uh the doctor says, I can't find a heartbeat, and I knew it, right? And I remember as that woman's walking by, I call my mom and I'm screaming, I lost the baby. And my mom's like, I'll be right there, right? My husband and I don't know what to do. And it was just such an interesting juxtaposition of here's this woman about to give birth, and here's this woman who just lost her kid and is going to have to give birth. Um, so it was hard. It was terrifying. Um I gave birth. They had to induce me. I'd laid there for two days, um, not knowing.

SPEAKER_02

So to do pitocin and you had to go through the whole labor.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. I immediately went into um an epidural because they're like, you don't want to feel this. Um, it'll just be too much emotionally. So, and I kind of I think thinking back, I probably should have waited a little longer, but you don't know at that point in time. But they gave me the potosium. I was in labor for two days. Um, and I took it so seriously because I'm like, I'm gonna give birth one day, I'm gonna have another kid, like I've gotta like this is my practice run, which is the only way that you could like cope at that point in time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um and I gave birth to a beautiful little girl that looked just like me. Um, she was incredible. We got to hang on to her for uh for about 24 hours. Um but because I didn't know, and because the hospital wants to be careful, right? Um, you know, they put the purple sticker on your door to let people know that you're what the process you're going through and you're grieving. Um because I didn't move, I actually damaged the nerves in my butt and my heels. Um if you remember labor beds, they're like basically a wood board.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so I wasn't rotating. And so I lost skin, I lost nerve. So on top of losing a kid, I actually like physically hurt myself. Um, and that was an interesting journey uh in and of itself.

SPEAKER_02

Um and permanent damage. Like it never never came back. Holy cow.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. So I I I remember when I I have a daughter now. Um, when I was in labor, I was like, I have to move, I have to rotate, I have to do everything. Um, because that that definitely stuck with me. But yeah, we um she was beautiful, she was just over two pounds. Uh, I think she was 14 inches. Um, we gave her my middle name because we hadn't had picked out any and we actually didn't even know that she was a she. Um, I had an intuition that she was a she, but we didn't we didn't know. Um, but she looked fantastic. She had little blonde hair, um, eyelashes. Um she was she was incredible.

SPEAKER_02

And they had no idea of what happened, no answers, nothing.

SPEAKER_00

No. Um we did an autopsy, a full autopsy. Um, I like went into like mom mode right away of like, I need to know everything. Uh so that journey, the next steps which led leads into grief is really interesting as well because I haven't had to experience that before. Um we leave town. My parents get me out of town just to try and distract me. That was terrifying. Um, I would wake up at night, my you know, fists clenched. I was in a different town. I, you probably know this, and most moms know this. When you have a baby, you're like all of a sudden like attached, right? Whether it's metaphysically or emotionally or whatever. And I would wake up going, I don't know where my kid is. I don't know where she is, I don't know if she's still at the hospital. I don't know if she's at the autopsy, I don't know if she's at the crematorium. And like that, that was just gut-wrenching. Um, because there was no way to be like, hey, where are you? Let me check in on you. Um, but we did a full autopsy. They couldn't come up with any conclusion. We looked at my placenta. Um, we did ultrasounds of um all my parts, and there's no leading indicator. But that actually comes back to my IVF journey later, um, which I think I figured out might have been the the issue. Um but it was just really disorienting because you're wanting like your body saying you're a mom, um, but you don't have the physical child um to say you are a mom. And so I got back into town, a friend of mine who had lost her little boy um a couple of years beforehand. She's like, here's a therapist, go talk to her. Um, she's she lost two of her own kids when they were, I think, eight and ten. Um let her help you. And it was game changing, um, completely game changing. I could cry on her couch, I could yell at her couch, I can do whatever I needed to do. And she was so great about sticking to truth. Um, I think a lot of people going through grief think about the shoulda, woulda, and cuddas. Um, and I still do, but she was so great in grounding me in a talk about the truth. The truth is she died. Right. No matter what you say isn't gonna change that. So you have to address that head on. Um, you can be sad, you can be mad, you can cry, you can hate the world, but the fact that she died. And that was really interesting and gave me a lot of permission to kind of hold two truths at the same time, which is facts versus feelings. And um, I think that was, I don't think I would be who I am today if I didn't have that grave counselor.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and that event for sure changes you as a person and you see things in a whole different way. I'm sure you as a mom is so much different now for the better because of a hard situation like that. And it's funny to hear you say that two true, you know, holding those two things at once can be true because I also went through, I went through early stage miscarriages. So two of them. And I do remember the deep grief, but also the gratitude in life at the same time. And I think I've shared this in an earlier podcast, but I think specifically it's so hard because early stage, late stage, you know, you don't want to compare. But I remember in the moment, we did a service for both of our miscarriages. And the first one, we went to the graveyard and we went to the section that was for children. And we like I had to walk over plots where there was three-year-olds and five-year-olds and two-year-olds, and there was just this overwhelming feeling of like, wow, like that's different level shit. Like, not to compare, but it also put it in perspective of like, there is so many women who've gone through hard things, like I can do this too. And so I think there was just this almost this moment of beauty and gratitude and feeling not alone. And so many other women have done this paired with that deep grief that it's such a weird juxtaposition as you're going through the grief process.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, it's um, and I uh I think it's okay to compare or not compare at the same time because it's still a loss of future and hope and expectations. And no matter at what stage, it's just a matter of how many memories did you get to collect before that happened at that point in time. So that's it's um, I ended up going through other two early miscarriages before I went into IVF. So I understand that and it's the same. It it's the same grief. Um, right. And it's just different. And uh it's one of the things also with my therapy, and I I'm noticing it now. I um I treated it a lot like anxiety, um, which was when I was deep in it, I would remind myself, hey, what's in the room? Right. I would look around and be able to count the things that I can see. I would um verbally tell myself what I can feel, what I can hear, and just try and ground myself back into like the truth and the reality. And one of the things I took away was I noticed I was always clenching my fists. And so at night I would remind myself, open your hands. And I would slide them under my pillow and just leave them open all night. And I still do that today. And it's actually been a um indicator to me when I'm overstressed or I'm starting to feel that grief again. I noticed my hands clench and it's it's been a really good reminder of like just open your hands. And then it it allows me to process at that point in time. So it's like it you find the tools that help get you through it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I love that. And that you just, I mean, therapy and counseling for everybody is so amazing. I'm curious if there's any other things that you take with you today, too, that you learn through that period in sessions.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, I I think the biggest takeaway is grounding in truth and facts. Um, so we are we're human beings, we are all emotional, we are driven on emotions. Um, but I take it also, I was actually having a conversation with one of my director ports today of we were feeling big emotions and let's root ourselves in the facts. The facts are X, the facts are Y, the facts are Z. It's okay to have the feelings, but here's the truth and the facts. And then that helps us navigate how to move forward without saying you can't have those feelings or without suppressing those feelings. Um, it just gets us out of that, you know, churn for a moment and allows us to move forward and then we can go address those feelings.

SPEAKER_02

I like that one. I can definitely see all scenarios where I'd use that every day in work, mommy, and other life.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, my two-year-old right now is uh exploring possibly hitting, um, you know, because she's got big emotions and not a big vocabulary. And at first I'm like, I'm a horrible mother. And then I'm like, facts are it's her emotions, it's not you.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, yeah. I know I had a moment the other day um with my son too, where he was just so frustrated. And usually I can identify it and I don't have an issue stepping like separating the two. But this one, I was just so tired. I didn't feel good. I was kind of sick, and he was he was frustrated with whatever. And he was like, Mom, I wish you were never born and you're the worst mom in the world. And I just like lost it. Like I was like, I know you're so frustrated, but I was like, that was very mean to say. I think I immediately started crying, which I was like, that was very mean to say. I'm gonna walk out of the room. Um worse later on he was like, I'm sorry, I love you. It's like I knew you were just having a very big emotion and you were trying to find the meanest thing to say, and you kind of nailed it. So, you know, good work on the creativity. But just yes, grounding in the truth. Like, I love that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think I think that's just been and then finding that ritual that just helps remind you to ground in the truth or that you're okay. Um, for me, like I said, was the hands. Um, and I think that really just helped because I was actually really afraid. Well, she passed away two weeks before I was gonna have my baby shower. And so my my parents were great. They they helped cancel that, obviously. Um I still can't go to a baby shower. And I want to. I'll send the best gift, but I can't, I can't go.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I was really afraid because I couldn't go to baby showers, that I couldn't be around kids or that it would be overwhelming to walk down the baby aisle or, you know, go into the children's place. Luckily that I've been okay with that. Um, it's just the and I think I've just given myself permission to be like baby showers are just not your thing. And but everything else can be.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, and that's been really helpful. I didn't have a baby shower for uh my daughter Callie. Uh, we ended up having a sip and seat later because I was like, I still want to celebrate her, but I didn't want to grieve again in that sense. Um, so it's been lucky. I've been able to be around kids before Callie was born. Um, I know some can't. Uh, and that's okay, right? We all have to find like our boundaries and and what is comfortable for us versus I think we force ourselves too much to do unpleasant things be for the sake of being a good human. Um, and I think we need to be a little kinder to ourselves.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, love that. And I'm curious, after you were in the hospital, after the day that you got with her, what was the process like after that then? You don't, that's one thing you definitely don't hear about too much. Like, what did you guys do a service? Where did she go? Like, what was it like after that?

SPEAKER_00

Um we so still in the hospital, they they we could have as much time as we wanted with her, obviously within reason. Um everybody has to make their own choice. I I think what I would have done, I was so afraid to let her go um that I didn't let her go for 24 hours and then they went and did photos. Um, I will tell you, I was expecting beautiful photos. Um, they were not, obviously, um, because she had passed away. I think if I had let her go right away, we could have gotten those beautiful baby photos that you see. So, but I'm glad I have them. Um, so it that's a choice that I think women in in our situation will have to make. Um, and any choice is right. Um they kept her in the hospital. They moved her to wherever they did the autopsy, which I think was downtown Phoenix, and then they moved her. We had to choose a choose a mortuary. Uh, we ended up cremating her because again, I I couldn't put her, I didn't feel right burying her. I didn't want a place to go. I wanted her with me. Um, my sister went through the same thing and actually buried her daughter. Um, and so did my friend. And I I it just that choice didn't sit well with me. So she's actually um in a box, big box of the duddy bear. Um, but she's always with me. And and my hopes is when I pass or something, I'll find the right place for her, she can stay with me. And then uh picking up her ashes was weird. Uh, they give you a paper, and they're like, anytime you travel with this box of ashes, you have to have this paper, at least in Arizona, to say, like, yes, these are human remains. It's okay that I have them. And I was like, why did this happen? Right. So you just find like funny things to think about. Um, I didn't have a service for. Um, I think I have a service for, I do have a service for her every year. Um, her her birth date was June 2nd. Um, I take that off. I go sit in a spa. Um, I turn phones off, I turn computers off. Um, and I just go be with her in a spiritual sense and then help take care of my body at the same time. And that's kind of my little memorial for her.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And so looking back on that journey now, we're about five years out from it. What's what's something that you wish you would have known or told yourself then, now that you have a little bit of hindsight and you work through it, that just that that earlier version of yourself you wish would have known?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know, to be honest. I I I don't I think if anything, if I could go back to 2021 and tell myself, I would just tell myself, I'm really proud of you. Um, and I and I think you don't realize that until you have that distance. Um, you went through the toughest, probably one of the toughest things you'll ever go through in your life, and you survived. Um, and you didn't just survive, you actually thrived. Um, you took on self-advocacy, you went through medical records, you had more confidence in yourself, you gained more empathy um for other human beings. And frankly, like I would be a completely different mom had Anne lived um than I am today. And I am, in a way, thankful in that essence, because now I'm an incredible mom, more so to Callie, um, because of that experience. And I am already impressing upon her how much self-advocacy is important. Um, and instead of letting miscarriages drag on and following the standard IVF process, um, I actually used what happened with me to say, no, I need a different path. Here's what I need, and you're gonna make it happen. Um, and that I think is I don't think I would do anything different because I don't think there's anything I could do different to be who I am today.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. But you did the next best thing, which is work through the grief and then apply all the learnings to your next hard situation, which was then what at what point did you guys feel comfortable going for IDF?

SPEAKER_00

Um I wanted to get pregnant right away. And actually, I lost again in June. We were pregnant in August, um, and I lost that at 10 weeks. And then I think so that put us in October. I was pregnant again and I lost it at six weeks. Um, and by that January, I was going to IVF doctors. Um, we were actually, we did a train male transfer. Um, we did all the treatments, we grabbed the eggs in March of 23.

unknown

Uh so

SPEAKER_00

Um, that was a painful process.

SPEAKER_02

It's not easy. I'm like, this is so intense.

SPEAKER_00

It's insane. Um, so because we didn't know what was wrong, I had multiple invasive exploratory procedures that were basically scraping my cervix and my ovaries and everything in between just to try and get data points. Um, also to figure out how to time ovulation um for implantation. And it is painful. Um, it is some of the most painful physical experiences I've ever had. Um and then when you are, I forget the actual terms, but going through to like grow your um your the eggs, think of like having a watermelon in your stomach, not like a baby watermelon, but like sitting on your ovaries, like the sides next to your, you know, your hips, and walking around with like that watermelon balloon for four weeks.

SPEAKER_02

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00

Four to six weeks. Yeah. And then they have to put you out to grab the eggs. Um and it's just uncomfortable, like you the worst period times a hundred.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um and then I actually got an infection. So we were supposed to transfer in April of 23 and I had an infection.

SPEAKER_01

And I had probing.

SPEAKER_00

We don't know why I got an infection, but probably. I mean, that's that's a lot of that was four months of invasive procedures and drugs.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and so we were supposed to transfer in April, ended up not transferring until the end of September because I was fighting an infection. I actually never went away. And by September, I was like, just do it. Just do it. And they're like, okay, well, like, you know, obviously it's a more limited chance. And I was like, I I can't, I can't wait anymore. I don't want to wait anymore. Um, by then I was 40. And um it it worked. The first one worked, which was which was really great. And that whole pregnancy was, again, really great. Um, but living the experience of losing Anne, um I was in the uh not in the hospital, I went to the ER three times in our first trimester because I thought I was bleeding too much. I couldn't feel her. I was, you know, mentally or emotionally like she's not here. Um, I thought I lost her once. Um one thing that you don't know about with IVF is that uh gosh, I can I forget what it's called. I could have told you this going through it. Um, but it's where there's a pocket of blood between the um the egg and the and the lining. And so you'll bleed like a period. Um normal pregnancies get it, but more so prevalent in IVF. And so I would I had a period for my first two uh two trimesters. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And they're like, nope, she's great. Like this is just what's gonna happen. Um, you know, you're okay. And then Home Girl, once she started moving, every Monday took Monday off. And so she wouldn't move. And so every Monday I was in the OBs going, put an ultrasound on her, put a heart rate monitor on her. Um, because I just I wanted to make sure that we were we were good.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I mean, the probably the most stressful nine months if you go through all the losses that you did ahead of time. I mean, that is just like you're thinking, you know, it can't even be possible almost at this point with like everything.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And most a lot of IVF doesn't take in the first time. Um, you know, so you're already prepared of like, I have to go through this to get to the next one. But then you get closer and closer and you're like, oh my gosh, is this actually gonna work? And um, I can't imagine. I have a friend who's been trying for five years. I think she's done IVF transfers nine times. Um, and I I just it's it's so hard. It going through I IVF is way better looking back than actually trying to try naturally because at least from my perspective, because I had checkpoints. And I'm such a type A person of like, okay, this checkpoint clear, this checkpoint clear, this checkpoint clear. Whereas when we were trying between Anna and Callie, I was like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And so with that IVF process too, what I'm not familiar with, what do you need to do when you're after you do the transfer? Are you still on drugs? Are you still taking things? Like, what is that rest process like?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it all depends on your body and and the data that they have, but you will be on drugs. Um, so one of the things that I found, um, I became very obsessed with my past medical records and Anne's autopsy because they couldn't find anything. And it was like 2 a.m. one morning. Um, I think this is before after they pulled the eggs before the transfer. So when I had the infection, um, I was like, what is protein S? Like, what is this thing that they're indicating in my records and in her records? And I start Googling, which is the worst thing to do. TikTok's the second worst thing to do in pregnancy. Um, and it's a it's a blood clotting issue. And I'm like, I don't ever remember having this. I've never had to be on blood thinners. I've never, I don't bleed profusively or anything of that sort. And I brought it to my IVF doctor, and he's like, Oh, well, you need to be on blood thinners and you need to take baby aspirin double dose. You need to only eat these things, you need to possibly be on diabetic uh medicine. Like all of a sudden, this entire other world came out and all the way through my pregnancy. So once we did the transfer, I was on massive blood thinners um twice a day. Um, I was on probably six other drugs. Uh, four of them were shots, um, all the way up until uh two weeks before I gave birth when they had to pull me off blood thinners. Um, so that way I didn't hemorrhage. And it was a lot of injections. I still have knots in my hips from the injection sites. Um, I don't ever want to see a needle again. Right.

SPEAKER_02

That's wild. You found that. So literally the IVF facility that you went to had this information but didn't see it. Or was this in some other lab result in a different chart that you were digging in?

SPEAKER_00

Other lab results that I've had throughout the years. Um, you know, I had a um, oh, how I where I actually found it is um I had a um, oh my gosh. They had to take out my um, not your gallbladder because your appendix. Appendix, yeah. 17 weeks pregnant with the end, they had to take out my appendix.

SPEAKER_01

Oh.

SPEAKER_00

And it was in that data um medical charts that I found that I had protein S because I was going back through everything. And then in her autopsy, they're like, oh, she has a protein S deficiency. And I put two and two together.

SPEAKER_02

And so what is protein S?

SPEAKER_00

It is a type of protein that makes you clot um faster than what you're supposed to. And and there's different levels or variations, if I remember correctly, and and it can be a bad thing. It doesn't have to be, but I've probably always had it, but it wasn't a thing. Um, and so just from a precaution standpoint, given that we were spending so much money, they're like, okay, let's try a blood thinning protocol and um get you through it.

SPEAKER_02

And it worked. I mean, who knows if that's actually, you know, what could have facilitated it or not? Who knows? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I don't know if that's what happened to Anne. Like I don't, they don't, they can't, there wasn't any like there was no like clot in our lungs or clot in our heart or anything of the sort, but who knows, maybe.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, digging into digging into your history, knowing your body, it's very overwhelming and complex, but can be so powerful because you are your number one advocate. Like, no doctor is gonna care as much as you care. So I think there was a previous guest I had on, and she said, help your doctor help you. Yes. Like you need to be as invested in your health and be up for researching some of these things. And yeah, it's really complicated. And like I've never heard of protein S. And so like researching some of these things, it's it can be overwhelming. And yes, you need to use the experts and not just, you know, use Chat GPT in your own self to figure anything out, but you have to dig a little bit and be your own advocate to push things forward.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Well, and I think as women too, we're so used to being conditioned of we don't know everything and we are not to ask, or it's not comfortable to ask or to advocate and never again. And Callie's gonna know how to advocate for herself for everything. Um, you know, and keeping records and actually looking at them and asking the questions and going to Google or AI to like at least get some sort of education. So then you can have an educated conversation with your doctor.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yep. I've experienced something similar. I may not know what the right answer is, but it's given me enough information to bring up different things and ask different questions instead of just taking whatever the response is as like, okay, I'll go that path. It's like, no, there's probably like five more questions you can ask that would really get at different angles.

SPEAKER_00

So exactly. It's like taking multiple medications and how they have cause and effect, right? And it's just, okay, well, there's a medication piece, but what about your diet? What about your exercise? What about your feelings, right? All of those things play in. It's not so linear.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So yeah, going through the process of IVF and being your own advocate, do you have any advice for anyone who's starting off on the IVF journey of different areas that they can maybe push more or ask more questions or should be their own advocate?

SPEAKER_00

Uh well, I mean, that's just number one. Just ask all the questions, be your own advocate. If you don't like the timeline, question it. Um, if you don't like the procedures, question it. Um, you know, but also at the same time, I think I was naive going, this will be a three-month process and then I'll be pregnant. Um, and it turned out to be almost a year. Um, so give yourself some patience and grace, but also know that it's sort of comforting in a sense, because like I said, you have these checkpoints, right? So all you have to worry about is next week or the next two weeks or this next whatever it is. Be present in that sense. Don't worry about getting to the end of like, oh, I don't have my baby yet. Just go through the process in each process to learn more about yourself so you can advocate even more for yourself. Um, I remember I had a conversation with my IVF doctor. I was like, let's transfer two. Right. Because this was it. I wasn't going to do this again. And he talked me down and said, here's why you're actually probably not going to have a successful pregnancy, at least for me, for two. I know some women that can do multiples. Um, but if I didn't educate myself enough, I kind of had that good conversation with my and let them know what you want to do, right? Let them know that you want a boy or a girl if you do. Let them know, you know what, September's not a good month. Let's aim for November, right? You don't, you can build a timeline around you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's good. And I know I never got to the IVF process, but similarly had a hard time getting pregnant and went through different uh fertility clinics. And I would definitely say find the fertility clinic that matches your approach and your jam. Like there's some that are just like I think the first one I went to was not me. I mean, they were just, yeah, like didn't listen as much, weren't as into some natural approaches first, just not on the same wavelength that I was. And after that experience, it was clear like, okay, let's try something else. And going to a different fertility clinic for me opened my eyes to, whoa, it is wildly different how these two with the same goal clinics can operate so differently. And so you might have to go to different places to find the fit that's best for you, too.

SPEAKER_00

Two things for that, too. Um, I was, I had my grief counselor therapist at the same time. And she was actually the one that they I think they wanted to put me on a Clomed um and to try naturally. And she's like, no, no, that's not what you want to do. Go to your doctor and tell him that you want IVF and get started tomorrow. And like, so build a therapist around you to help be help you advocate for yourself. Um, and also what I would say, and I didn't realize this, and and thankfully, choose an IVF and an OB at the same time that work together, that also have the right hospital. Um, I I was very lucky to have fallen into that. Um, but looking back from when I had Ann to when I had Callie, I would never go back to the hospital that I had Ann at, and not because it's trauma, but because that was more that I learned about. Um, and how when I chose a new OB and my IVS, how connected they were, they were talking all the time about me. Um, and then that transferred to the hospital. So when I walked into the hospital, they had everything that they needed. Um, and they work directly with my doctor on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's good. It is interesting to understand how hospitals actually work in the different relationships too, because you could also have a doctor that doesn't end up being the one delivering for you. You know, you're so pissed because you're like, no, I've seen you for nine months and like it's finally go time. And of course, you're not, you know, on call and your colleague who I've never met before is, but yeah, we we scheduled her induction for a variety of safety reasons.

SPEAKER_00

So I made sure that my doctor was there. But even meeting up to it, I at least met with two of his other colleagues. Um, and not just in case, because it would have been somebody in that office. So at least I would have that comfort.

SPEAKER_02

That's awesome. Nice. And so then what was the birth with Callie like? I'd assume, I mean, it's also crazy emotions because you're back in the hospital, you're giving birth, she's now a beautiful two-year-old. So, what was what was that experience like?

SPEAKER_00

That was insane. Um, it was completely insane. Uh we decided to induce, and I remember sitting down and we picked the date, and I was like, Well, I just want her here. Um, I imagine we're gonna do a c-section. And he's like, no. He's like, We're gonna go natural. Um, that's always our first choice. And I'm like, okay, right. And so I went into labor 36 hours. Oh, wow. I pushed for two hours. Um, her shoulder got stuck, and he looked at me and goes, You're right. And they rushed me right in for an emergency c-section. Um, that was that was uh in the hospital was great. Um, they were fantastic. Um, I'm glad I got to experience the labor that I truly did have wanted with Anne. Um, I waited on the epidural until I felt comfortable. I got to sit and bounce on the ball. Like it was like I was actually joyous through this. Um, I had luckily I knew the the head of anesthesiology because I kept ripping through my epidural. Um, I was like, I'm feeling everything, guys, and I'm moving. You, you know, give me some more, which was not so great for the emergency C-section. Um, but it was great. Um Callie did uh end up in the ICU for four days just because she was delivered early through C-section. She had fluid in her lungs, so they had to get that out. That brought up some trauma because I was afraid I'd have to leave the hospital without her. But other than that, I had a really great experience. I was afraid that I would compare Ann to Callie in the experience, and it didn't. For me, it didn't. Um, I think I, because I'd worked through a lot and I had prepped myself, I got to have the experience I truly wanted. Um, and it didn't, the grief didn't hold me back.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I love that. And I love a good birth story. I know. I love it. They were so great.

SPEAKER_00

They were so great. I loved eating everything. Um, the doctors were fantastic. Um, there was a the my anesthesiology friend, he walked in, he's like, You know your OB's out there doing punching bag air jabs, right? And he's like, Yep, he's getting ready to pull his baby out.

SPEAKER_02

Oh man. And so Callie is two now. You do your ritual every June 2nd, where it's you and Ann. Is there other tactics or things that you find yourself are really beneficial? And just, I mean, grief is one of those things where it doesn't go away. You know, you're you're working through it every day. It's not, you're just not over it. So I'm curious today, yeah, what are your tools? What are your go-tos, and how do you kind of process it now?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I think um one of the things we didn't touch on, but just to touch on lightly, is that even though you give birth and you don't go home with a kid, your body still goes through all of that post-uh maternity. So your boobs are leaking, you're oh man, yeah, you're bleeding, all of that.

SPEAKER_02

Your pelvic or is Jack still.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I would say once you get through that, and one of the rituals that have helped me is you have so much drugs in your system and you have so much grief in your system that immediately take care of yourself. Um I made sure that I was walking, I made sure that I was eating right. Um, I made sure that if I needed uh Sertalin, I was on Sertalin or whatever support looks like for you, but get outside, meditate, continue with therapy. It's it's not a short term. The grief comes and goes. I I I don't grieve Anne anymore. Um, I I kind of celebrate her through Callie a little bit of like, what would you have been like as a two-year-old, or what would you have been like as a four-year-old? I'll never know the answer. Um, but it I've enjoyed fantasizing about it and being able to experience that through Cali. Um, but I I I think I've worked hard uh to not constantly carry it with me, but to accept it when it shows up.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I'm curious, do you have you ever thought about what you're gonna tell Callie in the future? Would will you tell her? Will you not? Like what are your thoughts on it?

SPEAKER_00

I've already told her. Um, I told her through her pregnancy, um, one of my nicknames for her is sister. Um, right. Like, and she I have Anne's footprints and handprints and like her birth card, and that's actually hanging up next to Callie's in Callie's room. Um, so it's it's something that I don't hide, um, but it's just be part of natural. And then when she gets curious to ask the questions once she realizes like I have a sister, but she's not here, um we'll get through that. Um again, sorry, these things are all popping up in my head. One thing to also touch on is my grief experience was way different than my husband.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yes. I was gonna ask that too, because there's two people experiencing the same thing, but in very different ways.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I um for him, I would say like he was just waiting for that Amazon box that never arrived. Um, so his his he grieved. I still believe he grieves. Um, but I considered my myself a mom right away. I still sell celebrated Mother's Day. I I have two daughters. Um, I'm not sure that he says it the same way. Um, but he does obviously recognize um Anne and and knows that we've had that loss. It's just it's very different. And we each have to process it ourselves. There's no single way to do it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. Everyone has to walk their own path and do the work for themselves.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You've done it sounds like so much hard work. And I'm just in awe of your strength and vulnerability to share this story. Um, you know, we've met originally through the marketing world and the professional side, but I remember hearing your initial story of um just what you have gone through. And it's like you originally said it, like you just don't know what other people are going through or their experience. And so being able to hear that, you know, your own personal journey and story is just so beautiful and inspiring for myself. So thank you for sharing.

SPEAKER_00

I appreciate that. Thanks for allowing me to share. I think the more that we can share and show the unique journeys, hopefully it lessens the aloneness that happens.

SPEAKER_02

And ways to celebrate our babies that are in heaven. You know, there's a lot of different ways that people can do it. And so to hear those different ways, I love because there's gonna be other women like us who end up in this situation and hopefully they can find strength from the women like us who've come before them.

SPEAKER_00

So agree. Totally agree.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, well, Amy, thank you for coming on again. Thanks, Erin. Thanks for listening to another episode of Find Your Fuel. If you enjoyed the show and want to support us, please leave a comment or review. And before we go, I have to give you the obligatory medical and legal disclaimer. This podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. The advice and recommendations. We discuss are not intended as medical advice and do not replace the treatment or care of a physician or any other primary health care provider. Using the information shared today does not create a doctor-patient relationship and it should not be used to diagnose or treat any health problem. Always consult with a qualified healthcare professional before making changes to your diet, exercise routine, or medications. The use of any information provided is solely at your own risk. So, in a nutshell, let's be smart and remember these stories and conversations are for educational purposes only. Help other women find the fuel to live their best lives. We'll see you in the next episode.