To Our Core with Katie Murray

Episode 38: Guest Episode - Transforming Pain into Purpose

• Katie Murray • Season 1 • Episode 38

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In this conversation, Mark shares a powerful story of transformation, from experiencing childhood isolation, risky behaviors, and a life-altering motor vehicle accident, to discovering the importance of connection, self-awareness, and purpose. Discover how he navigated deep shame, addiction, incarceration and ultimately found a path to growth, resilience and helping others. 

Main Topics:

  • Early childhood experiences in rural New Zealand and the impact of isolation
  • The influence of peer pressure and the desire for acceptance during adolescence
  • The pivotal motor vehicle accident at age 20 and its aftermath
  • The emotional and psychological toll of guilt, shame and societal judgment
  • The journey through incarceration, vulnerability and connecting with others
  • The power of self-awareness, NLP and daily practices for healing
  • Mark's current mission: Running to raise awareness and foster connection among men
  • Lessons on the nonlinear process of healing and the importance of choice

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Remember, change begins with a single step — whether that's reaching out, running a mile, or simply deciding to share your own story. You're not alone, and your story is worth hearing.

SPEAKER_04

Welcome. This is to our core with Katie Murray, and this is the place where we peel back our layers to uncover who we really are at our centre, at our core. And think of it as a chat with your bestie, the one who can make you laugh until your belly hurts, who is ridiculously unfiltered and will lovingly call you forward to help you cut through the noise and get real with yourself. Around here, nothing is off limits. And we are mixing this up with equal parts, humour and heart, so let's dive right in. Just a note before listening to this episode, this guest interview includes discussions around suicidal ideation, serious drug and alcohol misuse, motor vehicle accidents, and incarceration. Please take care of yourself. And if this doesn't feel like an episode that is going to be supportive for you to listen to right now, please feel free to come back at a time when it does. Hey, hey, hey, and welcome back to To Our Core with Katie Murray. I'm super excited to have this conversation with you today because I have an incredible guest named Mark. Or I affectionately call him Marky Mark for some weird reason. And he has got a story worth listening to. Mark and I met in a training room, and when I heard his story, it deeply resonated with me due to my experience with a family member and also now seeing what he's doing with his turning pain into a purpose. And I'm so excited to have you here today, Mark. We have encountered some technical challenges this morning. And so this is not our first take. No. And also we are showing up, aren't we, Mark? Mark, that we're going to do this again.

SPEAKER_00

We've got this sorted. It's just like life, right? Is get working it out.

SPEAKER_04

That's right. And also, you know, isn't repetition like the recipe for mastery or something?

SPEAKER_00

So Masters we shall.

SPEAKER_04

I just believe that what we're going to deliver right now is going to be better than any other previous uh take that we've tried to get this morning. And I can see your face and it's beautiful and it's great. So, Mark, let's go right back to the start in looking at your childhood. You grew up in country New Zealand. Um, you're a Kiwi from across the bridge. Uh, and I'm just really curious to hear how your childhood started to create a foundation for some of the decisions that you made later on in your life. Can you tell us a bit about your childhood?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so like growing up in in New Zealand in a small community, um, 100, 150 people total, only really um in like a squash cord and a school and a church, no shops or anything. So it was like you um you relied on the people around you, and farms are quite distant from each other. So for me, I had my mum, dad, and my three-year-old three-year older than me brother, um, that I sort of tried to spend most of my time with. Um, so it was, yeah, it was I like it for the most part, it was a pretty cool upbringing on a farm in New Zealand with motorbikes and a lot of freedom. However, it came with its emotional challenges during that time of like the with the isolation and loneliness kind of thing. So dad was always milking cows. That's all my memories of dad was he was always up milking cows before we got up, and when we got home from school and stuff, he was milking cows until you know we pretty much had dinner and um bed sort of thing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. So tell me how that experience, whilst wholesome in some ways and then challenging in regards to isolation and loneliness, started to shape your early years in terms of like 10 upwards and some of the like defining moments that you'd look back on now and say, I can see what was happening now that I've got hindsight in my back pocket.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and the and the big one that um that stands out for me is at that on my 11th birthday, um, drinking a whole bottle of wine and and um as a result of probably not fitting in and not knowing how to how to be comfortable within my own skin at such a young age. Um it's probably sort of the first time, first memory I have of actually acting out a bit um so extravagantly, I suppose, um and so much risk around it. Before then, before those before that event it was more like, you know, little things that you do, misbehaviours and things that weren't you didn't seem as see as being so serious. Um but yeah, that's like from that sort of that incident really started to change the way my life was going.

SPEAKER_04

Did you feel like at the time that it was acting out, or did you have a different frame from which you viewed that experience?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think yeah, I I think for me it was more um trying to fit in and the acceptance and and like doing something that would give me an identity of being cool and being that person, being the older kid kind of kind of mentality and um wanting people to look up to me, up to me, I guess, like I'd looked up to all the older kids around me, um, idolized and that. So I do remember always being very much like that, um, looking up to the older kids and just thinking, fuck, I just want to be like you guys, like you guys are so cool, like you've got the coolest clothes, or you're you know, you like just so many of those things that you go through. Um, I remember that a lot.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And so what kind of you said that was like the starting point for some of the decisions that you then made. Walk us through, you know, not like day by day, but like how things continued to kind of map through in terms of that need to fit in, that sense of belonging, wanting to impress. How did that play out in your life as you became older?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so we left, um I left New Zealand when I was 12. So I mean, from from that incident, um, the wine drinking incident, I don't remember too like uh you know, trying cigarettes or little misbehaviours and stuff. But when I moved to Australia and come from such a small community and such a a big country with so many people living in Rockhampton was really I really felt then that I would needed to do whatever I could do to fit in. Um so then it just went from small misbehaviours to drug taking and like finding ways to drink alcohol and mis like not turn up to school and um finding comfort in girls and relationships and and um yeah, just really searching for that that that acceptance kind of feeling. Um was yeah, w when once my I sort of felt like I was a bit more mature when I come to Australia that I could really um I can really remember those sort of feelings.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. And then something happened to you when you were around 21 that really um was a huge kind of like landmark for you in terms of your experience with drugs and alcohol. Can you share a bit about that?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so um really for me looking back on it from the age from that young age of of eleven through to being twenty one was it's just like this this constant battle between drugs and alcohol and um and fitting in and it sort of really got to the that point when I was twenty where um it all come come unstuck, it sort of once it came to head and yeah, had a pretty serious um motor vehicle accident that um resulted in my best mate being um at the time being paralyzed waist down and and some facing some serious consequences for those actions.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And tell me how was that experience? Like you go through that, you you you were under the influence of the time of the accident. What's your recollection in terms of like waking up the next day and looking down the barrel of the decisions that have led up to th that moment?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think like a lot of there was a lot of reflection on on the actions in the lead up to it and a lot of um a lot of anger and a lot of guilt and a lot of shame. Um the more I thought about it, the more it just it made me sad. It made me really sad and then which in turn made me confide more in drugs and alcohol and and trying to suppress those feelings however I could do it um was sort of my mission each day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So when you used drugs and alcohol in the past that was in relation to wanting to connect with people, is this was this the turning point for you wanting to actually use it as a means to escape?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think yeah, like mm when I think back on it, um I think a part of me was always from that young age um doing the drugs and alcohol to suppress probably the pains that I'd felt in the younger years of my life of not being accepted. Probably didn't have the maturity to actually think about it actively. So as I got a bit older and um a few more things like changed in life, then it became more of a a suppressant sort of means. And I guess also the fitting in thing was still there to to try and find that comfort, you know. You can always we could always, as a I don't know, as a male, um, always find that comfort in drugs and alcohol around other people.

SPEAKER_04

And with connection being such a key theme to this conversation and the behaviours in wanting to seek it out, how was that impacted when you knew that you your behaviour and you getting into that vehicle and driving and being the responsible driver had impacted your best mate in the way that it had?

SPEAKER_00

Um Yeah, obviously it was it was devastating to think that like I was uh the the it had all sort of led to to that. Um but yeah, I mean a lot of yeah, a lot of like it was very, very immature in the mind then, so it um it didn't make a whole heap of sense until a lot of a long, long, long time after it. Um but yeah, it was not the best time.

SPEAKER_04

So when you after the accident, did you have an opportunity to speak with your best mate?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, it took um so it was probably uh just roundabout figures, I think it was like two or three months really before he could actually um articulate because of his brain injuries. I remember seeing him probably a month after the accident once he'd sort of got out of um ICU and was in the brain rehab place and it was like meeting a three-year-old. Um never forgetting him getting wheeled out in the wheelchair and and just the look on his face, and it was just like fuck. He's like, this is gonna be Toe for the rest of his life. And um playing Connect 4 with him and letting him win, like it was just like, what the fuck? What is this? Like I've I've I've done this and um it wasn't until yeah, like two or three I think I think two or three months later, I might be wrong, but um until we actually got to sort of talk on a on a normal level by the time he sort of recovered. Um and all he could say was like it's not your fault, like he can't remember anything about the accident, however, he remembers times before the accident. Um when we'd jump in the car after drinking all night, I'd jump in the car with him, he'd be driving and we'd just go for joy rides and do things that we kind of knew we shouldn't be doing. Yeah, it was just like oh it's it's not it's harmless, you know, like kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_03

So Yeah. Were you able to receive his perspective? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

No. I think I I I thought I could, but I had this I just had this mentality of thinking to myself that doesn't matter what anyone says to me, and I remember telling people this as well, like I'm I'm not giving I'm not gonna give myself um any sympathy for this. You've done this, you deserve to carry this for the rest of your days, uh like Tay's in the wheelchair for the rest of his life. So this is your punishment. You carry this as a sign. And I convinced myself for so long that that's that's the way it should work. That's fair. Eye for an eye kind of thing, and you know, you carry this with you, and it's just yeah, pretty I guess that's the way the mind wants you to think.

SPEAKER_04

Um it's also how society conditions us to like you know, you must take ownership and then you must wear it as like your um the bag to carry behind you, dragging along the ground to weigh you down for the rest of your life. And I can speak from some personal experience in regards to this, and I won't go into too many details because it's not my story to tell, but the reason why I think you and I connected quite deeply when we first met and I heard your story was because I've had an experience where a family member um pr basically was living your experience. They got into a car under the influence, significantly under the influence and crashed their vehicle. And when they crashed, they actually crashed into another vehicle completely unknown to them and killed one of the passengers in the vehicle. And that um the public shaming that came, like we also lived in a the small community and um, you know, just I just remember it being like literally the talk of the town for months. And, you know, there was so much like people want to see other people held to account. And they no one unless you're on the inside of that experience can understand how heavy the weight of that is, that you don't really need anyone else's external pressure on you. And in the same way, it would not have mattered what anyone said to that person, my family member, or probably to you, that could have made you put down the weight either and say, I'm cutting that rope from behind me, I'm not gonna drag it anymore. And so it's kind of like you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't, you hold people to account and they're like dying on the inside. Absolutely know that my family member would have swapped places in a heartbeat with the persons who he took their life. And yet also, if you don't, if you say you made a mistake, you're human. Yes, it was for my family member, it was one of the worst mistakes that they could have ever made. And also you can choose to beat yourself about up about this for the rest of your life, or you can choose to carry this, and then effectively there's two lives lost. It would not it does has not mattered, particularly to my family member, what anyone has said to try and lighten that or disconnect that weight behind them. Um it's a it's a weight very much that they still carry. And so that's why I asked you as to how able you were to receive that um from your friend in a gesture of I see you, and you know, it could have been me in terms of I could have been the driver and held that accountability and responsibility.

SPEAKER_00

It's such a yeah, it's it's it's just society, I think, is just like and I'm guilty of it for sure, and and and I'm I've been living proof of it. Yet you see something pop up on the news and someone's a 17-year-old kid's crashed and killed five people or something, like and and you straight away you just go to this, what a fuck, what the fuck were they doing? They deserve to be punished for like and then like it's just you just it's so wrong to think that way, like I just I think it's just a situation where people still want to believe in a right and a wrong and a black and a white and it just doesn't work like that.

SPEAKER_04

Like I remember being in the emergency ward with that family member and just the police delivering the news that the person had passed away and that family member was just screaming, throw the book at me, throw the book at me. Like I I don't want to live like the That's a human being. That's a human being that's also losing their life as to what they thought their life was gonna look like.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And so, yes, your best mate's life has changed, and also your life changed. And I'm wondering really how you responded in those earlier days. Like you said, I didn't have a very mature mind or approach back then. I'm wondering what that looks like for you because it could have been a turning point where you're like, never again, or it could have been Yeah, and that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00

But it's it, you know, it was like a moment of me was like, oh, this is okay, this is the turning point, this is my chance to to turn things around in my life, and then there's like no fuck that. I'm um I'm running, like I'm just gonna run from it and I'm gonna suppress it and I'm just gonna push it as far down inside of me as what I can and use as many drugs and alcohol to to not ex to not feel the the feelings that I've got inside of me and um and yeah, like I think it was uh it was a couple of weeks later, less than a couple of weeks later, just acting out and just drink driving again and just like it's just so lost and um just didn't have the resources to be able to to cope with the things that had happened in my life, let alone in that moment.

SPEAKER_04

So um And for some people that may not realise if they haven't gone through it or seen a family member go through it, is that the court process is not quick, is it?

SPEAKER_00

Not at all. That's uh I was um the accident was in September and I was still driving the motor vehicle licensed until until March. Yeah. So that's yeah, and then even from there it was like, okay, that's not that's March is okay. I mean I got released on bail because I'd never had any prior conviction, so um they set the court date for August. So September till August is a oddly long time to be waiting for an for a result that you don't know what is gonna be.

SPEAKER_04

Exactly right. And so you turn up to court what close 10, 11 months later. Where are you at mentally in terms of like what are you prepared for? What do you think is gonna happen in that moment?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think mentally my I just want to say straight away, mentally I was like, I was fucking exhausted from running and from trying to stay awake as long as I could stay awake and live as much as I l could live possibly live because the end was coming, is the way that I looked at it. So there was also there was that feeling and then the unknowing of what I'm walking into, and all I knew or all I'd been told is that the minimum was three years and the maximum was eleven years, and if we could get somewhere in between there, as close to three as we can, then um we'll be going well. Like uh the solicitor basically said plead guilty and um and if you do plead guilty you you open yourself up to a 20% or 25% discount off your minimum sentence or whatever sentence you get given. So we were aiming for that. That was the goal. Um, but yeah, like just remember being just completely exhausted and and broken and just ready to surrender at that time to give my mind a rest.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So the what were the do you remember the words that the magistrate or the judge said to you when they had determined that you were gonna be locked up?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so just Tao's um Tao's mum came and testified. It was late. Tao's your best mate. Tao's, yeah, yeah, the guy in the accident with me, and um he came and testified and it was it was late in the day on a Monday, and the my solicitor said to me, going into the courtroom, look, mate, it's it's late. I'm I'm really sure the the judge is just gonna say, Right, oh, let's turn back up tomorrow and we'll address this case first off. So, well he said to me, give your mum dad a bit of a Huddle like um but you should be right for tomorrow and then got into the courtroom and sat sat in front of the judge and it was like he just went and Tao's mum jumped up there, said her bit mark shouldn't go to jail, he doesn't deserve it. Um the judge sort of just processed it really quickly and before I knew it it was like just these words come out of his mouth remaining me in custody because I was going to be going to jail. Um and then two big shadows just appearing beside me and I was like, fuck. What is happening? It felt that quick, it literally felt that quick that I was like, holy shit, okay. Then it was just like bang, blipped up, handcuffed out the side of the room. And you know, like it's just I just remember being broken, completely shattered, tears, just not not knowing, not being able to run anymore. That was it. Um couldn't go anywhere, so straight out the side of the room, like it was like, okay, you just you're you're here now, you're in it.

SPEAKER_04

And what was that experience like for when you got to the other side, led out to the rooms?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so that that's as soon as they they led me out the back, strip searched me, made sure I wasn't a danger to myself, and um put me in the concrete, the concrete cells with no windows, no daylight, nothing, just um the light on 24 hours a day and a little hospital blanket, and I just remember just thinking to myself, then this is it, fucking give me give me a way out. Um for a moment I was like I just wanted to to commit suicide however I could, and then I just laid there and I just bore my eyes out and I just shut my eyes and I I prayed or I I just hoped. I spoke into my mind and I just said I just need something to help me, please give me some strength. And um and I was lucky at that time that a young bloke turned up, and I'm certainly I've never been a real religious sort of person, um, but just that moment my mind just went to asking for help. Um and yeah, a young bloke turned up who'd been in and out of the system and it just gave me so much hope because he was so so normal. He wasn't what you've seen on the on the movies and that at the time, because that's all I knew about jail was what I seen on TV. Um and yeah, him being so normal, I was like, holy shit, hang on a second. Like I can I can actually do this. If he can do this, then I might be alright here, I might be a chance. It's not just gonna be bloody blood and guts and knives and fights and everything everywhere, like that's not what it's gonna be. So yeah, it gave me s it gave me a lot of strength to get through it, and the more I talked to him, the more I could visualise what jail was gonna be like. So the it was taking the unknown away from her. Um so and every day it just got a little bit closer, a little bit better, like it was it certainly was it was the lowest of lows. Like I wouldn't have kept I remember saying a few times I wouldn't keep my dog in those cells, let alone a human being. Um but I got through it um until the Friday, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And so then you were given your sentence and what did that look like? How long were you sentenced for?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so the judge found um specific circumstances um due to my references and To's mum and no prior convictions. Um he gave me 10 months, and that was a real it's a key, key number, I think, in my in my sentence, because I knew that ten months was only everything once. Never had to do the same thing twice. And I remember thinking that, actively thinking that, like, okay, you've only got to do one birthday, one Christmas, one New Year's, one footy grand final, one this, one that I was like, yeah, okay, I can I can do that. Like, um yeah. So I was I smiled on that day. It was probably the first time I'd smiled and I f I felt a big weight off me. Like this was this I know what I've got to do now, so let's just turn up and and get it done.

SPEAKER_04

And interesting, like you talked about connection being such a huge part of the behaviours that started showing up from a very early age in your life and desiring that connection, and connection was in itself in those holding cells, one of the things that kept you going as well with that other young man who was in there. And it just seems to be a continual theme, and we can talk more about what you're doing now in terms of still bringing connection to the very forefront of conversations. And just touching briefly on, like you said, that it was the lowest of lows when you were in prison and some like dark moments. How did you survive them? Like moving out of the holding cells, knowing what your time was, you know, yes, coming to terms with the fact that you'd only have to do things once, one Christmas, one birthday, all of that kind of stuff. And also I can imagine that those ten months you you encountered some pretty challenging things as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Um I guess I've always been I've always been lucky enough that for why one way or another, I've always been able to connect with people and always I think because I've never known who I am inside, I've always had to make like adapt to different scenarios, so this was no different, and and I was lucky enough that I could sort of make alliances and friends and and confide in people who've seen a lot of energy and light in a young person like myself and that helped me a lot um in the early days and then um yeah, there was certainly some dark times going like I went through in jail, there were definitely some times that um were extremely hard to get through. Um but yeah, just like my main my main coping mechanism was having a good connec get a good connection with people because people I guess concept conceptualise that jail is just full of thugs and murderers and you know and all these all these people that should be in jail is what people sort of looks at look at it like, but that's so far from the the truth. Like here I was as just an example of a one g a kid that's never been arrested for anything, never convicted of anything in jail, and there were a lot more people like that. Yes, there was probably a a percentage of people in there who have been thugs all their life, one way or another, that were in there and um yeah, the some of the people were really genuine people that just had made mistakes in their lives, so um I managed to connect with a lot of people that gave me strength to get through it, taught me a lot about life.

SPEAKER_04

One thing that prison does for people is it strips back all the layers and the titles and the whatever facades we often create in the outside slash real world, and you get an opportunity to see people all as just human beings. And in that environment, you've probably got it all out on display in terms of vulnerability and decisions and choices that have led you to that place, and also that allows you to have a space of being able to see people without judgment because you're in there sitting alongside them regardless on the severity of the crime. You can actually just allow yourself to sit with another human being and see them for who they perhaps are beyond their behaviours. And one of the things that I always talk about in my interactions with people, you know, whether that's like literally how I respond to my children or working with coaching clients or just anyone that I engage in, particularly when their behaviors might be difficult to understand or make sense of, is to really understand that people are not their behaviours. Often their behaviours are, particularly the ones that might be deemed by society or the world as, you know, the problematic behaviours or the shameful behaviours are the ones that are coming from a deep sense of hurt and lack of connection. And how would it be different if we responded to them in a different way?

SPEAKER_00

That's uh yeah, that's so true. Yeah, it's so true. And it's I mean, I'm a result of that. Like I'm a perfect case of of that. And um and later on making sense of that is just like it's almost it's like a a light bulb moment, and you're just like, holy fuck, it's that simple. Yet we still just forget that all of these people have been through certain things in their lives that they just haven't been able to cope with and they haven't had the resources to deal with it, and they've they've just it's ultimately taken them down this path that's got them to where they've gotten to, but we're just so quick to just say, Oh, well, he's a thug, and that's that's that's that.

SPEAKER_04

Like we'll often it comes from a place of wanting to make ourselves feel safe by we're not them. Like, let's shun them, let's shame them, let's like push them into the oh, they're the misfits of society or they're the bad people, because if I can put them over there, then I don't have to look at my own shit, which may not be on the same scale in terms of behaviours as them, but you know, I'll just sit in my safety of while I continue to point my fingers externally, I don't have to point any back at me. And so with connection being such a key theme for you, how was that being separated from like really important relationships for you in your life with them being on the outside and you being on the inside?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I had um I had a partner, I was with a partner when I was in jail. So that was that was hard, like being away from from her. But I think like it's hard to sort of like that was it was always hard for them to come and go. Um but it's just hard to put into like perspective now looking back at it, because those connections are obviously so such a distant memory for me. So I think also what I will say is like the lead up to to going to jail, I'd pushed everyone so far away from me as well. I'd literally I had um actively tried to push everyone as far away from me as I could, so I couldn't be nurtured or made to feel I don't know, comfortable with what had happened. Like I was just so adamant that I deserve to feel this way, you've got to feel this way, this is what needs to happen, and um so yeah, I guess the connections while looking back on it at the time I was like, yeah, I I definitely miss the connections that I've got. It was like I still had connections inside jail with some people that I were really cl was really close with, and um one way or another, the connection is the thing that got me through there through the through the time, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And so you got through it, you're looking down the barrel of walking out the door. What was that moment like when you were released from prison and did the weight of the shame and the guilt just magically lift because you'd have to be like it's gone.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, hurrah, you've done your time. It's all staying behind. Uh absolutely not. Um I just had I guess because I'd been away from alcohol for 10 months, we managed to we managed to sneak a little bottle in through a visit, which was like it was like right at the end of the um of my time and contraband in jail was just like rife. So we'd been and I like we I it was quite funny that when we did it, like, because it was right at the end of the sentence, we just had like this little tiny, you know, those little hotel bar ones, yeah, just like of Jack Daniels or something. We were just like little kids just sitting in the cell drinking this thing, and the guys that I was drinking with had one of them had been in there since he was 18, and I think it was like seven years into his stint, and so it was just like this little it was like a little funny sort of moment. But um, so yeah, I guess I managed to s we I managed to smoke a lot of weed in jail. Yeah. It was actually a way of coping through a lot of it at night time. Me and my cellmate just well I won't go into detail too much, but we just managed to have a lot of it. So we were just constantly so this the suppressing the feelings never really left, left, left. Um, so coming out of jail, I knew I wasn't gonna keep smoking marijuana, it was not my thing. Um, however, drinking was gonna definitely come back into my life. Um I felt like I threw away my my through my teens, I threw away my the potential of playing like a really high level of rugby league. I had a lot of opportunity and I just I guess I didn't want to commit to doing it. I just I just thought it'd come easy. Um so coming out of jail, I had this mindset of okay, um, I'm gonna have a real good crack at playing rugby league. And so I shifted into that identity of being like, right, are you gonna train hard, you're gonna work hard, you've come out of jail, you've got this story, like everyone, the local community, local media wanted a piece of the story to to talk about, to teach people, oh, you know, Mark and Taylor, they're gone and um gonna go around to schools and do all these talks, and it was like, oh, sweet, this is my identity, like this is cool. And then every talk that I did, it was at some point in time the question had come up about carrying the accident with me and how I felt about it. And I'd always I was still so set on no, I'm carrying it with me. It's mine. Like I've I'm I'm stoic, you know, I can carry this thing with me. I'm I can deal with it every day. I'm still t standing here telling my story, and you guys all love me. So I almost shifted into that that was my identity for the next short period of time, and and it was just so unhealthy. Like it was just like just again, straight back into while I'd be playing footy and I'd be training hard, the binge drinking was still there, the the the um drug abuse was still there, it just went hand in hand because I was still trying to suppress those feelings of not being good enough and not fitting in from such a young age. I'd just never known how to dealt with it. So I was like, okay, we'll just go back to that for a while. And so that's what I did. And never really addressed the problem fully. Because I never knew really, I could never I was never mature enough to understand it.

SPEAKER_04

Hmm. So So what happened then? You built a life outside of an experience of prison, and meanwhile you're determined to keep carrying this guilt and this shame and the weight of your decision making when you were 20 years of age. What do you think people were seeing like on paper in regards to what your life looked like? Were they seeing the success story that came out of prison that turned his life around? And did that also match up to your actual experience?

SPEAKER_00

No, well d on paper, yeah, absolutely. One thing I've I I'm lucky and blessed that my my dad especially has always been a very hardworking person and and I've taken that into my life. So I've always worked and I've always always wanted to have financial security. And so I had on paper, yeah, absolutely. I was working my butt off and I was getting some um getting some having some good things happen. Um bought a house, built a house, like that sort of thing, like had a lot of good things going on. However, it was like a 50-50 split, right? The good was good, but the bad was fucking so bad and I was hiding it so much through my behaviours. Um which I mean it was for so from so near I guess 10 years of twenty um 2009 really and through till um 2019 is when I really my rock bottom happened for me was was really in 2019.

SPEAKER_03

What did that look like?

SPEAKER_00

Um so the uh you sort of gotta paint the picture a little bit. In 2019 it was like a lot of drug abuse, a lot. And I went from being like like a Friday night bit of cocaine or whatever, just have some fun to Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And then every week it was happening like that, every week, every week for a long period of time, like six months. And then towards the end of 2019, I had um we'd come back from Europe, we went on a holiday, come back from Europe, um, and I was just exhausted. Like I I remember feeling like I was I was still working, I was still functioning. I'd have I'd cook dinner in a weeknight, have a glass of red, have another glass red, have another glass red, and there'd be a bottle, bottle and a half, two bottles of red, like on a Monday night, and then Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, same thing, back onto the the coke and the other other drugs, and then yeah, I remember the last the last night I just I was just exhausted and I just crashed like I got to a point. I made a um I made a a mistake by not telling my wife the truth about something so trivial. Um looking back on it, it really was so trivial, but I was so rattled that I didn't want to tell her, and it it just like this one the night, the final night, is like the person who I'd said I was with FaceTimed me and my wife when we were all drinking with and her family, and and my wife quickly asked this person, Oh, how was your time with Mark? And the bloke on FaceTime's like, What do you fucking mean? I wasn't with Mark, and just looked at me and I was just like, just that moment I was like, You're fucked up here, and my that my heart sunk, everything just shut down and I just lost it. Like I just I just went into this for like the week after uncontrollably crying, just wanting to die for like a week, just on the couch. My wife would just sit there just patting my head, and I was just like, I just want to fucking die. I don't want to be here. Like I've had enough. Like I can't keep doing this, I can't keep turning up and um yeah, that was that was like a that was that was it for me. Like I just thought, fuck. Like, how did I get here? Like what the fuck? Um ten years ago I was meant to have paid my dues and and now I'm I'm here. Like what the fuck? What is this?

SPEAKER_04

And you also were never gonna allow yourself to get off paying your dues and doing the 10 months, like you said, like I I identified as the person that needed to carry this with me. And it's it, you know, the trivial thing is like the ultimate example, isn't it, of the straw that broke the camel's back. Like that moment with your wife where you were like, you know, it once again comes down to your connection with people and that it might be threatened is the the thing that actually allows you to break down and without sounding too corny, then have your breakthrough.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I think often people think that sometimes with the breakthrough that like it's quick and often breakthroughs are quite a journey in themselves. And I know the word journey is somewhat overused as well, and it is like it's a process that it's not linear, you don't necessarily have this big epiphany, this moment, and go, you know, I'm healed. Um, we're all good now. It's about a process. So, what was that process like for you? You spent a week on the couch, you're crying, your wife was there supporting you, and also was it a moment of just like snapping out of it, or was it a process of crawling out?

SPEAKER_00

I think I want to say I got to the end of that week and I and for one reason or another, I just thought to myself, the fuck are you doing here? Like, okay, you're not you're not gonna commit suicide, we've got through that bit. Turn the fuck up, let's find let's find out what is going on inside your brain. And the at the time, the the I had a good monkey on one shoulder and a bad monkey on the other, and and we need to figure out this bad monkey to to really sort him out and get rid of him. So I was like, I'm going to a doctor and the doctor's gonna fix me. So to the doctor we go and then all of a sudden you start introducing the antidepressants and um and the drugs to help you sleep. So then for me, I'm like, oh great, okay. I can now take drugs that a doctor's giving me to suppress the true feelings inside. How great's this? Like, let's go.

SPEAKER_03

I've got a medical football.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so it was like, okay, the doctor said take one of these, I'd take two, and then okay, that was like then you go back to the doctor and these aren't working. Why aren't they working? Like you've told me that this is gonna fix me. It's not fucking fixing me because I still feel this way d inside, you're not fixing me. Okay, we'll try this drug. And then so It felt like this this journey of okay, let's try another drug, let's try another drug, and all the while I've I I have put blame on two doctors and psychologists and psychiatrists. However, I don't think that's real fair to do that because they're only doing what they can do with what the person in front of them is giving them in a way. And I wasn't giving them the full me, because I didn't understand the full me to explain what was going on. So um it just felt like that was the journey from for a couple of years anyway. Um I was no I was sober, like no illicit drug, no alcohol. Um I was certainly riding the ups and the downs, and it felt like I was like really really good for anywhere from one month through to three months, probably max. And then I'd get something would happen, whether it'd just been an argument with my wife or um I don't know, it could be anything, and then bang, spiral out of control back into this depressed state. And that could last two, three, four weeks. But you're just like, you're just a shell. You're just literally walking around and you're not something's the one of the funniest things you've ever seen. You're just like, hmm. Like I said, you're just a shell of a human.

SPEAKER_03

Feel nothing.

SPEAKER_00

Mm. So in that time I'd I had um like I said, I've always been real competitive with sport and most things that I take on. So I was lucky enough that I had really pick picked up playing golf, and I was like, again, the universe giving me these things where I'm like, you cannot commit to playing golf, and you're where you want to get to with it. If you've got um these thoughts in your mind, you need positive thoughts too, because it's such a mental thing to be able to play golf properly. And um, so that was like it's just the universe throwing up these little things for me to say, okay, you wanna you want to be competitive, you want to get good at this, then you gotta figure this shit out. So keep working towards it. And it was just like just following that the threads, and then we fell pregnant in 2021 with our first first daughter. Um so that was again the universe giving me a little bit of strength, throwing it up to me like, okay, this is good. Um and I think yeah, the the when I had we actually I actually held my daughter at such a a powerful time that it was like all these different feelings of um not being not being judged, fully being accepted by someone. She's got no idea who you are. She just doesn't care. She just cares that she's safe and you love her and you show up for her. Like so that was a big a big moment. However, it was not like it wasn't the cure, that was in 2022. So I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and without talking about a cure, because mental health and people's journeys continue to evolve as we do as humans, has there been something that has happened in your life that has allowed you to fully let go of the weight that you've been dragging behind you for a really long time?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, absolutely. Um I I think and without sounding too corny, the journey led me to digging really deep inside of myself through other avenues, training how we met through that whole process, um to really un making sense of why you're feeling the way that you're feeling. Right? So like it's not like this magic fix that people are sort of seeing and they think it is. It's not. It's about under st making sense of certain things in your life and then using those resources every day, sometimes every fucking hour, sometimes every half an hour, sometimes it's go down to a minute to make sense of things that are happening in your life and why you're feeling that way.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And what Mark's referring to is the NLP work, the neurolinguistic programming work that I do with clients. And there's some really powerful statements or questions that I learned through that training that has been so important for me as a human in how I navigate experiences and how I perceive things, and also when clients are feeling really stuck. And that is yes, we're here to make sense of what's happened and and why things have like particularly emotional charges to certain experiences, and also the two statements or questions that really stay and resonate with me, and I ask like multiple times a day to myself, to my children, to clients, to friends, is for what purpose? So, like when you're looking at like holding on to this emotion or the shame or the guilt, for what purpose are you doing that? Because in that, you can then ask the question of, is there a secondary gain here? And when people are like, what does she mean by secondary gain? What I mean is that there was a whole identity that you had to let go of, Mark, if you couldn't be the martyr anymore and hold the shame as like this weight that you're so strong and you get to carry. Like, look at me, I'm just gonna keep whipping myself for the rest of my life. That there is a secondary gain in the comfort of the familiarity of that identity. You know that version of you for a good 10 or 15 years. Like you're like, I am so attached, I don't have to wonder how I'm gonna respond or how I'm gonna react or or you know, how I have to feel about myself. I know I just fucking hate myself for what happened. And so if I hold on tightly to that, then it'll make every day that I live from that moment, you know, almost honorable that I'm carrying that weight.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

That's the secondary gain. As much as consciously, you'd be like, it makes sense to let go of it when we can understand where the emotion comes from. And it may not be like as vivid as what Mark's talking about in terms of an incident. It may be something that happened to you when you're four years of age that you actually don't have a great sense of recollection. And when we do NLP work and we look at clearing emotional charges, we're not actually asking you to remember something as in a memory. It's about a sense of that feeling in your body of when you had it. When you clear that emotional charge, it's not that you're never gonna feel anger, sadness, shame, guilt, hurt ever again. It's about the fact that it's not gonna come with 35 years of charge behind it. Or for me, I'm a little bit older. It's going to be relevant to the moment. And then you get to ask those questions, for what purpose am I actually continuing this longer than it needs to be? I.e., what story am I attaching this about myself? Because physiologically in the body, a chemical release for an emotion is 90 seconds. So the reason why we last in emotion longer than that, happy emotions, sad emotions, is because we keep it alive with a story.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. It's a story to put around it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04

Exactly. And so for what purpose are we doing that? And is there a secondary gain that keeps us stuck in that emotion?

SPEAKER_00

And the majority of that is to protect, I feel like it's to protect yourself and your image that you've convinced yourself that that's what you're living.

SPEAKER_04

Like it's Yeah. Like identity change can sound exciting and it also can be fucking terrifying to your unconscious mind. That's like, you know what? That's unknown and that's unpredictable. And I don't know whether we're going to be successful at that. What I know is I'm gonna be successful at carrying that really heavy burden and beating myself up.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I'll keep doing that.

SPEAKER_04

We'll just stick with that because we know that I can succeed there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And you've talked about how fatherhood has shaped you and you know, that it hasn't motivated you to to allow yourself to be seen in a way where there's no judgment. Mental health is such a fluctuating thing for a lot of people. You know, it's not that you are just like you've worked through your stuff, Mark, and you've released a lot of the emotional charge around that, and you're never ever gonna have that pop up for you. And this is why it sounds like a bit like guru and cult-like.

SPEAKER_00

And that's yeah, that's that's like it's literally every day. Like people will say or think what they're thinking, however, the maintenance that I'm running is the key to the success, like daily to to make sense of things, like you said, and for what purpose? Like it's not it's never gonna like for me, it's never gonna go away, but what what is happening every day that I'm running these foreign programs, they're becoming less foreign. Yeah, and they're making I'm I'm finding so much more comfort in these foreign feelings that you feel every day by dipping your toe and and feeling them, and it's it's so exciting, like it is literally so exciting. However, yesterday for me was like a day where I was like, okay, what the fuck is this? Why are you doing this to me, universe? Yeah. But you make sense of it, and then you get to the end of it, and you go, that was that's the best. Thank you so much for that. Because tomorrow or the next time that this this pops up, I can I can deal with it a lot better. Like it's it's not just this magic pill from things to a lot of things.

SPEAKER_04

I mean, it's not, it's not, and also it's life-changing when you are given more resources to be able to equip you and the realization that actually everything is a choice. Like it is actually a choice as to whether or not you're gonna continue to carry this because guilt and shame they are different things. Guilt says I did something bad, and shame says, I am bad. Like I am bad. And so you get to choose in that moment, you know what? That is not actually fucking serving me. That is not actually serving me. That the realization that I did something bad is one thing, and I can, you know, you released a lot of guilt around that. And then also the shame, that's something that like we don't talk about because actually, you know, if you see me, then you might think to the core of me that I might be actually a bad person. And, you know, when you look at your value of connection with others, then who's gonna want to connect with me then I'm bad?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And so I'm really interested for you to share your story in regards to how you were changing the path for other men now. And it's so interesting your language throughout this time that we've been talking today. The amount of times you reference running, I'm running from it. I'm trying to suppress it. I'm running, I'm running, I'm running. And now talking about what you're currently doing, which is just a vehicle, yeah, for your mission.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Tell us that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So gone is like gone of the days of feeling uh trying to put this into words the right way, but feeling like I'm doing this for a secondary game, right? I'm d I'm at the moment I've set myself up with a challenge to engage as many people as as I can through running 2,529 kilometres, and um it came to me on just a run that I was doing, just for an exercise run, and and I'm I'm on a mission to try to help people through my story and give them resources to deal with things that um are foreign to them. So it came up with the number of that was the amount of men that committed suicide in in 2024. So the the idea is to to run an extra K every day um for every man that lost his life and until we get to 2,529 K's. And the at the start I thought to myself, I'm gonna do this all by myself, and it's gonna be a great story.

SPEAKER_04

And then there we go, carrying that weight behind us all the way.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I can do this by myself. And then I thought to myself, you know what, you don't have to, and I I changed the the the challenge, and every second day I'm running, and in the middle I've got the community behind me pushing me through their connection and their want to support by running. And we've we ticked over I think we're up to after today we'll be close to a thousand and one thousand one hundred Ks into the into it. It's been today's day eighteen, I think. Wow. So it's um it's amazing. Like it's it's absolutely amazing and and it's it's turning up and and really showing people that if you can if you do keep turning up and you do keep trying to make sense of things, eventually it'll get easier. So and that's the running thing is like for me it's just really trying to engage people, the community, and it is like it's the amount of people that are jumping in, and I've never met a lot of people from other countries are jumping in and doing runs, and it's so satisfying to see these people. Not because it's like it's not like uh me a valid validating me, it's because it's like it's it's the whole concept of having other people involved with people to to bring everyone up, right? Like through each other's stories, and that's a powerful thing with men.

SPEAKER_04

And allowing people a space to talk about it visibly.

SPEAKER_00

And that was the yeah, that was the big thing for me. I wanted to I wanted if you're gonna do a run f as a part of this, you need to give me send me a message and tell me that you've done this run and attach a feeling to it. Right? And then like it's it just creates this positive energy around and um people are seeing me in town and around the streets and and where I live, and I've just got I can just I just walk around and I'm just like I I'm buzzing with energy within myself and I'm just like trying to radiate that shit onto everyone. Just like let's go. Like we can do this together.

SPEAKER_04

So finally running becomes the vehicle that actually points you in the direction that you want to go in instead of running away.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely, and that's so powerful. And while you can talk about it surface level and you can pretend until you like when you actually feel it and you feel like what has happened in the past is all just a story, and it's it's it's given me the resources to to follow my timeline and my goals and my purpose in my life. And my purpose is to share my story and help others.

SPEAKER_04

And it just goes to show that at any point in time we can rewrite our story. Like we just get to literally decide today fuck that story. I don't like that one. I just like literally, and that's something that I like I had a coaching client yesterday and they finished up and they were like, I literally have realized that since working with you that you actually just get to decide differently. Like like it's just that simple. And I go like, my work here is done. Honestly, that was their reflection that they had just emphasized so much choice and power in what they focus on, what they act on, the decisions they make in their life, that they felt so empowered by that, that they could literally know that they could go into their future knowing that whatever comes their way, they have the capacity to pivot. And I think that that's something that I've talked a lot about on this podcast is you don't have to make the right decision. You have to make the decision right. So if you get to a destination and the decision that you made, you know, a step back hasn't led you to the destination you thought you wanted to arrive at. Guess what? You're not a tree, you're not rooted to the ground. You can get up and move.

SPEAKER_00

Like just go a little bit that way and go again.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, exactly. Take a side step. Like you can do a line dance if you have to. Go around in circles, whatever you need to do, move because the only one keeping you stuck and rooted is yourself.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. Yeah, and it's your your negative mindset that wants to keep you rooted, right? Like you just and and it's so powerful when you can you can compete with it. For me, I I can I it's like a it's like a competition in a way, like when I'm when I am running and things are getting hard, like it's it's so comical now that I just literally like I was 20, 18ks or something to the run that I did yesterday, and I had 22 to do and and my all of a sudden these little this little monkey started to get his voice started to pop up and tell me how fucking hard this was. And I was like, I was literally running.

SPEAKER_04

Shut the fuck up, mate.

SPEAKER_00

I was laughing, like I was laughing at it, and I was just like, you fuck off. And I just ran faster. And I'm just like, and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, it's gone now.

SPEAKER_04

Like it's that's because he's eaten dirt back to the rabble.

SPEAKER_00

It's just it's so three K's back. It's so simple and um it just makes life so much more exciting.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I know that you've got such great goals for the future about bringing your story louder and brighter and bigger to all the people that need to hear it. And I hope that this podcast has given you a further audience to be able to connect with other people. I will absolutely link your Instagram to the show notes so that you can connect with Mark. Maybe you can run a K or two for him as well. And in closing, Mark, there's so many people, male or female, that are masking and walking around trying to pretend like everything is okay. And the word trying is quite deliberate there in the respect that, you know, for what purpose is trying to be okay working for you when it doesn't feel true on the inside, when you feel like you're drowning, in whatever weight that it might be that you're carrying, what is one thing that you would call out to that person for them to hear right now?

SPEAKER_00

That's a bloody, it is a million-dollar question. Um as someone who's followed his journey and and persevered through a countless amount of times of not wanting to be here, keep showing up and keep listening and learning and and not getting bogged down, I guess, and just and and persevering. Like I can't say there is a magic pill that you can take or you can do these things, but I I think being aware of things in your life and and and actively seeking answers is probably the thing that I would say the most. And and be nice to yourself. Be kind to yourself. Like don't think that just because you've done something really bad in your life when you were ten years old or fifteen or twenty or something.

SPEAKER_03

Or yesterday.

SPEAKER_00

Or yesterday, yeah. That's right. Like it's that's right. It's not like it's a part of your story. Like, don't be too hard on yourself.

SPEAKER_04

And you get to define what meaning you put a attack. You can like literally make it the most the best thing that's ever happened to you, no matter how hard it was. And I know that Tao is still in your corner, still cheering you on. And also I'm sure that Mark would be more than happy for you to reach out and send him a DM on Instagram. I am here, my DMs are here for anyone that's going through a tough time right now or feeling like they're carrying a weight that feels too heavy right now. Perhaps it's not your local community or your local doctor that you want to go to. Maybe a stranger on Instagram or a voice down a podcast right here, right now, is someone that might feel safer for you to talk to right now. My message to anyone listening to this who feels like they are struggling is that when you decide to put the weight down or at least pass it over to someone else to help you carry it, that's when you'll be able to start moving forward with greater ease. And so please reach out to Mark or myself if you need support and if it's beyond the scope of the work that we do, then we will do our best to direct you to someone that may be able to support you. Mark, I thank you for your time. I thank you for sharing your story. It is such an important one for the world to hear, and I hope that your message goes far, far and wide. And I'm so grateful for being able to connect with you and I'm sure we'll be mates for life.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on. And I love you to bits. And yeah, it's certainly a special bond that will take through life forever. And I know no matter what happens in my life, how far we drift apart or our journeys take us in different directions, I could always uh DM you or contact you and just say, hey, Katie, look, how you doing, or something. And that's I think that's such power and in that alone. So I thank you for coming into my life and I'm so excited about the future.

SPEAKER_04

Me too, Mark. Me too. And that's it for us on To Our Core. Thank you for listening today. And once again, I will leave all Mark's details in the show notes and I will be chatting to you next week. Thanks for spending time with me today on To Our Core. If something landed in your heart or gave you a much needed giggle, consider sharing it with a friend who also may need this as a timely reminder. And go on. You know you want to. Give me a five-star review so that this podcast can land in the ears of many, many more people. Because remember that life is too short to stay on the surface. Keep living, loving, and laughing all the way to your core. Go make life great. And if you want support around this, go to the show notes to find out more. Until next time, I'll meet you back here with more truth, laughter, and a whole lot of heart.