Truth, Marriage, Identity & What We’ve Been Taught to Believe

This episode wasn’t planned.

After Nisha & Charni finished recording the previous episode, around expression writing and books, we kept talking - and left the camera on. What followed was a completely unfiltered, unstructured and unexpectedly powerful conversation. No agenda. Just honesty.. It's become its own episode, and rightly so!

We talk about the realities many women quietly navigate - marriage, identity and the slow loss of self. We question the narratives we’ve been handed, from societal expectations to what we consume online and why it's vital we question everything we read, see and hear on socials and the news. 

This is the kind of conversation that doesn’t usually get shared. The kind that happens behind closed doors, when there’s no pressure to perform or package things neatly.

And towards the end, something unexpected happens - a moment of reflection that turns the lens back onto me, my work and what it really means to hold space for others.

If you’ve ever questioned the roles you’ve been given, the beliefs you’ve absorbed, or the version of yourself you’ve had to become - this one will land and change your perspective. 

If you've already been through that, then you'll agree with a lot of what we say...

Keep in touch with Nisha

• Work With Me: Request Your Consultation Call

Keep in touch with Charni

• Instagram 
• Website + Purchase her collection of works here 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Yeah, so uh the idea as we get older, when we're younger, we relate to the heroes. Yeah. And then as we get older, we we relate to the villains because we understand their backstory.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

When we're younger, we're not supposed to, we're not supposed to have any emotional investment for the villains. Because all of our emotional investment is wanting the hero to win over the the evil thing until actually you realize when we get older, it's a lot more complicated than that. Um it wasn't good versus evil, it's actually the person that we've labelled evil has had a lot of horrible stuff done to them, yeah, and they have turned out as a result of that. So if we had not we didn't know that Maleficent had her wings taken off her, yeah and she was robbed of her freedom, and that was without her choice, and that was by someone that she trusted. Yeah, she was portrayed. How many portrayed by someone that she trusted? You could even go as far as saying as she loved, someone that she should consider quite close to her.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

So yeah, she is naturally when we see her in her maleficent form of her being um in a way that we would consider that it's like you know, she's quite harsh and she's quite cruel. It's like, yeah, because no one was soft with her, she never got compassion, so she doesn't spare anyone. Yeah, she wasn't given mercy, so she'd she'll inflict that rage, that revenge, or whatever on everyone else on the entire kingdom because she never had that, and that was probably what she needed.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Yeah, but now she's been labelled as this wicked, evil woman who seeks to rain terror on everybody, but she's again like we spoke about in the episode, she's acting from that wound because no one taught her what it meant to be kind and honest and and compassionate, and to have that and have the positive reinforcement that goes with it, yeah. She had no parental figures, she had no elders, she had nobody to to guide her in a way, and this is what Clarissa Picola Estlis talks a lot about. Um, is you in all of these fairy tales, and I think Marion Rudman and and Marie uh were in France as well, that a lot of these fairy tales, how many of the the the young women are either orphaned women or they have no mother, they have no father, they're all helpless, they start off in that way. Maleficent was no different, and she had no one to guide her. She and like you say, she was betrayed by somebody that she trusted deeply.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Somebody who um, yeah, who who physically violated her.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

And then we wonder, well, why is she like this? But and I I think this is why I love these reframes with the Disney stories and the fairy tales, is because we get to see that other side of them. Like even in Corella de Ville, um, 101 Dalmatians. I I hated Corella de Ville as a as a child, right? Like you say, we were supposed to have them, but she says something to Anita in that when she says that she's getting married, and she says, more young women have been lost to marriage than more, famine, and something else combined. And it's true, it's not to hate marriage as a concept, but it's the way in which society has perpetuated this. That when as a married woman, you lose your independence, you lose your fierceness, you have to become very submissive, you have to become very domesticated, you can't do this, you can't do that. Why can't we have marriage? And you don't lose your sense of self for who you are.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yeah. But the thing is, in the context, in the context of where all of those things has happened, she's basically saying that you're giving up your idea, you could be one of the best designers in the world.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

But because you've decided to get married and have children, those are going to be your bigger priorities. You could be you could become one of the biggest designers in the world, but you're giving up that part of your identity like you have to. And I think society, in a way, is sort of framed in this way of like, yeah, but you're married now, like you have children now, you have responsibilities now, those things take care of it. Sacrifice your dreams. Yeah, they don't really have to be. And that's the first thing to go. And we you can't constantly say to us when you're also reinforcing that you have to abandon that desire.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

All the time.

unknown 4:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

And then you're like, well, women get into relationships and lose themselves. Yeah, because that's what they've seen. This is what they know. This is what they know. And whether that be on screen, in books, in real life, when you see people around you who've given up, oh yeah, no, I turned that down, or because whether they say it or not, that is ultimately what it is. Or they talk about they talk about their life, yeah, all of these things that they've done, and then we're like, Yeah, then I got married and then everything changed. And I'm not denying that that isn't true, but I'm saying and maybe it is too much of an ask to be like, obviously, there's certain things that can't continue. That's a shame. Isn't there a way that we can do both? Are we asking for too much? Yes, you can have everything, but not at the same time. Fine. Where's that narrative for men?

unknown 5:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

And as you were saying that, I was thinking about when a woman, particularly South Asian woman, gets married, she's expected to move uproot, leave her family that she's known. They're in her entire sense of self and identity is rooted in her family, and then she has to change her name, she has to, you know, um register at the doctors and do all these things, and and that can be an exciting part of the process, but there is no the there is no um equal for men, they don't have to do anything, they don't have to do anything that's difficult or change their sense of self and identity in this.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

But I think the sacrifice on both sides is different. Women are expected to give up more, we're expected to compromise more, we're expected to do more, and that's not to say you can have two people who live in completely different areas move somewhere so you can have some sense of equality that you'd go in through a lot of change in quite a short space of time together and find a lot of solidarity in that. But it's that change of all of that, I think majority affects women more. That's not to say it doesn't affect men, I think it just from an impact and identity level, it is completely different. Um, and a lot of that is because of assumed responsibility. You know, I think it just comes down to that. Like she's whether whether it be that you're like a wife marrying into especially in like South Asian traditional context setup of yeah, you're gonna move in with your with your in-laws, that's a whole different set of rules and responsibilities that no one tells you but you're expected to know. And it isn't until you sort of make those mistakes and you figure stuff out and you're held to a standard that you know when that equivalent happens where the same son-in-law goes to in-laws' house on the other side, they're treated like royalty, and that setup is completely different. Yeah, they learn a different set of rules, but it doesn't matter, there's a lot more leniency there that there isn't there. Um, and that sort of double standard. Um, but there's so many things like that.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

But there's so many things like that.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Oh, yeah. I think as well with with with brides, there is a need, it's it's very performative from the get-go.

unknown 7:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Yeah, they're constantly trying to prove themselves. Am I good enough? I need to do this, I need to do that, and it's it's really strange.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

And some men either either don't have that pressure or they just don't feel it to the same degree. Um, which is strange because it's like you're also navigating another family. You want to be liked and hoped and well respected and belonging in that part of the community as well. Um, but this the stress test on both sides is completely different.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Um I know a poet friend, a poet friend who's getting married, yeah, um, and she's developed a stress rash, and so she shared it on her story, and loads of other brides and whatever have commented in saying, Yeah, oh my god, are we the same? Like, and all of a sudden you see this outpour of all of these women sharing, yeah, like as much as it's supposed to be the happiest time of my life, this is the most stressed I've ever been. And despite all of the work I've put in before this, um, my skin is the worst it's ever been, even though I've looked after myself, all of that's gone out of the window. Like all of these maintenance things that I've done to keep things going just isn't working on the day of. Like I haven't slept, can't remember the last time I've eaten, I don't know what's going on, and you lose all sense of grounding for this spectacle. Yeah, and which we've paid thousands and thousands of pounds for. There's a more financial investment, emotional investment, sometimes like do these depending on how you're feeling. And you're like, what was this all for again?

SPEAKER_01 8:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

What are we doing here?

SPEAKER_02 8:56

I I think as well on an unconscious level, I think a lot of women, even if they don't consciously realize it, they know there is that change, they're in they know that something has to become different, and it is a a threshold that they cross from um um that kind of maiden threshold into something else.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Yeah, but I think the the bit that you want to change from an outward narrative to is like, oh, I'm married now. And the bit that changes with that is the way the respect level and the way that you're treated changes. It's the same way after you become a mum. After you become a parent, um people look at you differently, people respect you differently. Um while you're single, you don't have the quote unquote traditional setup, you're viewed in a very different way. I'm basically told in a roundabout way that I'm not gonna be respected, regardless of what you achieve and what you do with your life. Until you don't have those things, you're just you're simply just not, you can't be par for par compared compared or equally respected. It just doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Yeah. And that's a very it's very realistic, but it's also, I think, a very passive way of of giving it a narrative. Well, it is what it is, so you might as well just get married now. What's the point of waiting? You just if you want that respect, because we put so much emphasis on being married as a tick box exercise. Once you're married, oh then you must be this kind of person. Think, oh great, you've made it welcome to the group, you're one of us now, isn't this wonderful?

unknown 10:25

Right?

SPEAKER_02 10:26

There is that silent, like welcome to the club kind of feel.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Social acceptance, basically, what it's for is social acceptance for the emotional validation of being part of this click that everyone's supposed to be, everyone's supposed to be aspire to be a part of. Yeah, and when you're on the other side of it, sometimes you're looking at all of those things and like it doesn't sound like it works cracked up to be. Yeah, yeah, and it just be really real with you. You literally like that, ain't it?

SPEAKER_02 10:56

No, no. And I think with young Asian women as young girls, there is this whole narrative, oh yeah, when you get married, it'll be amazing and you get to wear your red linger and all these wonderful things. And I'm thinking now, like, I wonder what you're pitching.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Essentially, what you're pitching to them is freedom. Yeah. Because after you get married, you're gonna have access and privileges to do all of those things that you didn't get to do because if you grew up in a stricter household, you wouldn't be elaborated to allow to things, and now you can do those things, but you have the benefit of doing that with your husband.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

Right, but in certain environments, you're yeah, you're moved from one gilded cage to another.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

And we need it it's not about why can't we give women respect from the get-go? Why do they have to be married to then get this? Why do they have to again it's performative? Why do you have to get married to have the respect? Why do you have to become a lot of people? It's positive reinforcement.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Yeah, but it should be. It's positive reinforcement. And we shouldn't be changing that narrative. I think Yeah, it's it's just that whole thing about celebrations. If if if you're not married and you don't have children, when do you when else do you celebrate like that? When do you get a date yourself?

unknown 12:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

And it has to be socially acknowledged as the same way because if it's not there, then it's just oh yeah, it's just another thing that you've done. You know? Yeah, so we it we agreed, it's strange. Um but it's all with the idea of like one day all of this will be s reciprocated, and you know, yeah, it's just like a big massive business plan. It is, it's a complete agenda, and it's much like you know, just leaping back around to the fairy tales, how many fairy tale princesses have to go through proving themselves in order to also while we're on the topic of that, how many of those fairy tales, which is the unsaid narrative, yeah, how many of those fairy tale princesses have actually saved the man? Yeah, but they framed it in such a way that he saved her. Sorry. Because if you weren't in that predicament, how would all of that happen?

SPEAKER_01 13:00

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:01

It's a bit like Shrek being like, Oh yeah, I'm gonna go and save Fiona. Yeah, physically, yeah, you went to go and save Fiona, but you actually socially accepted yourself and you got your swamp back, which is the whole reason why you went there in the first time. Your identity, yeah. Right? Yeah, and all of those people that you're like, Oh, I hate the hate the fairy tales, I hate all of these other characters, and then now you're socially accepted. Yeah. Which wouldn't have happened if all of that hadn't happened. Yeah, but it's frame of like, no, he saved her. Yeah, of course. Yeah, Snow White, Cinderella.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

All of these, yeah. So many other ones. If you look at, I guess it's her Cinderella and she goes to the ball, he's only interested in her, right? He could be the bachelor, but he's the one that thinks, oh, you know what, I know she's my wife. Yeah, right. Maybe she does him a favor, maybe she pulls him out of something, but we're not told that side of the story. It's over.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

I guess he's being badgered in a way, he's being badgered in a way that I think an Indian woman traditionally would. So she's she's looking for a light off, and he's like, I found an answer to all of my questions, and magically, all of that does happen. It's like you just need to find the right person to unlock that that good thing of being able to be able to do all of those things, and that is basically through just another person. Um whereas it's the same in Frozen, right? Like, um, Christoph's character is like, yeah, I'm saving you from marrying Hans, yeah, but she also saved you from a life of social isolation because that that doesn't look like it was going anywhere. Yeah, and not only not it sounds really harsh, but like what else was his social setup apart from his brothers?

unknown 14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

And you know, he got the grand old task of saving the princess and our albeit the queen from the kingdom. There's just so many examples like that. There's actually more examples of women saving the princes than the other way around. But because when we were younger, it was framed in such a way of being like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

And this is what I love about um the maleficent reframe is that traditionally, I mean the Prince Philip, he he just swans around, doesn't do much, he's in the forest, sings her a song, and then off he, you know, he scares her. He's it and it's that whole like, oh, if you were a woman, would you rather be in a bear with it in the forest with a bear or a man, right? He scares her, she runs off because she's like, I don't know who you are, you're just some some weirdo. So her female instincts are absolutely on the nose with it. Um, but in the retelling, it's Maleficent who has to kiss Aurora, and I love that it's that that sense of female connection, yeah, right? That that relationship that it doesn't have to be romantic anymore.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

No, and I think frozen it never was, and part of the reason why, again, one of the things that isn't talked about until Frozen was written. Frozen frozen only happened because it was written by women, yes, because no no group of men are gonna sit there and write a story about sisterhood, not gonna happen, no, and so they've gone in with a sister-led story of it being like, No, it's not about the man, it's about the love between sisters, yes, and that was one of the biggest grow grossing Disney films because yeah, you're you're not getting a group of men to try and think of an idea that brotherhood is not like sisterhood. Do you know what I mean? Like it's just so I would and I'm not saying that you can't expect that from men, but I'm saying one of the reasons it landed the way that it did is because you had more women working on that project.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Yeah. Otherwise, it would be more product projects where men take over, and there is that sense of brotherly community, because I think that it's absolutely there, it just looks different. This is what I love working with male clients as well as female clients, is because the way that men's their minds work is is so different, it's so dynamic, right? Where women we connect in a different way, and it's honouring what that looks like. It's so so important to have that.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Yeah, and I think the difference with connection is like for men it's standing shoulder to shoulder, and for women it's standing opposite, as in like you're in the trenches with me, we're going through this together. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Um, it's just that I think it's so exciting for women because there was never that narrative to begin with. So it gives people something, it gives women something to believe in, something to pin their hopes on. That I'm not alone in this. There is connection, there is something there that's deeper than just women being pitted against each other and being constantly throwing this competition against one another, right? Even in and I think it's it's it's high time that these stories start coming out where there is more of that sense of connecting with other people, with other women, not romantically, whether it's familiar or platonic, whatever it might be, because the Grimm's fairy tales, the brothers' Grimms, the originals from Germany way back when it was dark, they are very dark, paedophilia, necromancers. Yeah, yeah. Um, what's the other mutilation in the original? Cinderella is it one of the sisters cuts off her feet, like part of her foot, her toes, to fit into the colour.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

But it is very violent, it is very crucial. So without the disnification treatment, there's no way that that would be palatable to children.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Yeah, yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

And even having a villain as evil as they are in it, is to have that good versus evil story. Otherwise, just enough isn't, you know, like Hansel and Gretel. It's disgusting, it's really disgusting. It's basically kidnapping. Yeah, do you know what I mean? It's basically kidnapping, yeah. Um, and all these other things are like they're just drip-feeding ways of like trying to try and reel someone in, and then they get them and you're like, Yeah, that's what it is. And I know they were told as cautionary tales, yeah. But there isn't they told us cautionary tales because the women in those stories will ultimately follow their instincts, and you're telling them that what they're what they're doing is wrong.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Yes, it was a cautionary tale about how not to do it. It never ends well for the woman unless she abandons part of herself or she follows her.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

So Red Riding Hood, yeah, like I studied this at United Red Riding Hood, like her taking the path to go to her grandma's house, is her exploring her idea of independence and her sense of rooting, and she's figuring stuff out and whatever. Um, but then it's like the cool show tale. This is what happens when you listen, when you listen to that, you follow that. Yes. I was like, no, like you shouldn't you shouldn't be there in the first place, is what they're saying to you. Not that the wolf should eat in you.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Like it's very similar to the the story of Asselisa as well, who's a young girl and her mother um passes away. So she left, she's left with this like very useless father figure, uh, or father. Um, he remarries, the evil stepmother comes along and casts her out of the forest, and it's only by the grace of her, like her mother gives her this doll.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

In which to like, if you need anything, you hold the doll. So this young girl goes out of the forest, she comes across Baba Yaga, who is this awful, like very um disfigured, crone-looking woman who's only out to terrify people and you know, essentially is a witch or just you know, it's a very um negative, evil woman. Um, but why was this girl not given the wisdom properly? Why was it in the story that her mother had to pass away in order for her to find herself?

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Yeah.

unknown 20:46

Right?

SPEAKER_00 20:47

And it's because it's this narrative that we run that orphans become superheroes, yes, and that is built on hyper-self-reliance and independence. Batman and Harry Potter are probably the most famous examples of it.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Yeah, and I read an article about this, and it said uh the way in which this has been constructed by filmmakers is very insidious because it's filmmakers, but it's almost from a government or society point of view.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yes, what are we saying as a society? What are we saying as a society if we're taking the most vulnerable people and putting them in those circumstances that technically they shouldn't be in, and then we turn them into heroes and we make them hyper real and we we make them do all of these things that like and it's not to say that it's not realistic, but it's like they're the only people that it can happen to.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Yes, but it also encourages be be in being orphan, but be in isolation, be hyper independent, don't need anybody and you Get to become the hero. And that unconsciously filters into children's minds that actually I shouldn't really need family, I shouldn't need community.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

I need to be by myself. I need to be isolated from everything in order to make something of myself.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

It's the opposite, right? Which, which I think, with the way some success narratives work, they do operate on that on that. Yeah. Of like, yeah, if you've got a dream and you're going to chase it, you've got to we've got to work hard and you need to double down, you need to hustle, and you need to grind. And it's like some of the success, success stories of all of these people, it's like, yeah, that's spending a lot of time in isolation. Um, even if you're in the context of a big, broader, wider company, yeah, that's saying that's running the narrow, like, yeah, you need to work 70, 80 hours a week if you want to make your dream happen.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

And you know, you need to do all of these things as a as a context of that. And like, yeah, in the height of Microsoft being born and Apple being born, that's what they were doing as founders, yeah. Until they reached a point where they're slowly, slowly, slowly stepping away, and they don't need to run like that anymore because you've already made it now. Now you just need to maintain it. Yes. And then you can come back and do whatever you sort of are. Um, whereas this narrative seems to keep reappearing, and they're like, no, like once we decide that you're done, you can't do anything, um, which is both healthy and unhealthy at the same time.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Um it's really important to know acknowledge here to think for yourselves. Yeah to do your research, to don't just go take things like social media and the news um for face value. You know, there are there are outlets that uh we have to be very careful with what we trust and what we listen to. We cannot just oh because it's on the TV, we trust it. Please think think for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Yeah, and I think the critical thinking it's so important. Critical thinking is maybe a little bit harder or different for the next generation because when we grow up, you sort of could. Um it was completely the either way, like there were certain places or people that you can turn to where you feel like, yeah, that that sounds true, it sounds real reason, whatever. And now it feels like you can't trust anything. Um, and so we're fight we've got more information than we've ever had before, and we still feel the least informed about everything.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yeah. So trust yourselves. You can't trust anything else out there than news or trust yourself to trust your discernment about this.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah, yeah. That is what's gonna see you. But it's also having the ability to discern that, yeah, to be able to ask the hard questions, to challenge not authority or the status quo for the sake of it, but actually, like, what are we getting to here? What was the point of all of that?

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Um don't just just digest it because it's there or readily available, be very conscious. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

I think that's the thing that social media's done, right? Is taken hard things and made it into short, like limited, quick content that is easily digestible. And you can sit there and be like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've watched, I've watched everything on Yep Steam Pass, I know everything about it. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean with that.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

People spin a narrative, it's so especially with things like Reels completely pull it out of context, right? There are so many from this conversation, so many parts that somebody could edit out and say, Oh, yeah, no, they were talking about this, like, can you believe they're like this? And yeah, but be uh be discerning about what you're seeing, what you're reading out there. It's so important to have that.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

I think all of that is, you know, I I guess sometimes it feels like the real world has lost its nuance. Um, when you have this sort of one-frame way of like this is how it is, and you've put it in such a way, it makes it seem like that's how it is. When actually it's from a bigger, broader, wider context of all these other things that have happened before and after that that aren't really acknowledged because you see it for what it is, and you want rage bait and you want outrage and you want response and feedback and all of that, and it just creates its own loop.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, and it's I'm I'm the conspiracy theorist in my family. Like that's my label. Yeah, and I think someone's gotta be, listen.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Only because it's true, the conspiracy theorist, that means you're the person who's most gullible when you believe everything around you. So, yeah, I'd rather be the conspiracy theorist. I'll come up with my own narratives, why not?

SPEAKER_02 26:34

The stuff I see, it's you know, I I was telling my cousin a few weeks ago about the the truth behind um the Titanic and why it actually sounds, and she couldn't believe it. And then, like, she was sending me messages afterwards, like, oh Didi, look, I saw this and is this true? And is that I'm uh but I want you to think for yourself. Like her now that you've known more about the backstory of the world, make your own informed decision about it, right? Don't stop like just digesting what's in front of us and ask, Do I want to digest this? Not from uh I can't face the truth, because I know that's the first step in all actually things are very different. Like, oh, I don't know, this is gonna challenge my whole perception of the world. But once you get past that stage, is what do I choose to believe in? Because there is a difference between choosing something and having to just take it on. And I think when we just take things on like that, it can bring up a very helpless, hopeless energy of what it is, what it is, and what's the point of trying. But when we choose to want to believe in better, to be the change we want to see, it's gonna, it has such a more far-reaching, a profound impact as well. And it encourages us as a community of people to want to take um more steps to be better and and um improve ourselves and our growth as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Definitely. Well, I think that's you know, as we found out, like a lot of those beliefs or things that you grow up with is inherited. Yes, because you know, you inherit other people's faith, you are other people's beliefs, opinions, whatever, until you have you're old enough or self-aware enough to be able to discern something different. Yeah. Um, and then when you start questioning all of those things, that's essentially that's what Pray Tell was is grow like questioning all of the stuff that I've already believed for a long time, and just randomly loads of people talking to me about all sorts of things, and being like, Yeah, oh clearly there's something here. Um, and yeah, what things do I actually believe in because I believe in them, or what things have I just sort of I just took as a given because everyone else around me sort of did. Like it's just you know, like, yeah, I just accepted that as the thing because everyone else accepted that as a premise. Yeah, and if I was to challenge or to question it, I haven't got the answer to that. Does anybody like do you know what I mean? And it appears no one else does either, so and that's okay, find your way through it.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Doesn't mean that we don't we don't we it doesn't mean we have to have answers for everything.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

No, all right, but just it would be helpful or turning to chat and you know, and not turning to chat GPT as an answer to everything because yeah, there's that as well.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Yeah, I think there's a wisdom though, a beautiful part of life is finding the answers for yourself, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

All right, in my experience, nine out of ten times they're almost always within you. Yes, and it's just to find a way of unlocking it and however, whatever way of doing that, it's all in you, and we just have to find it.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that unlocking it is is really critical because it's something that I struggled with for a long time. I'd hear like, oh, it's all inside of you, you know, the answers.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

And I was like, I don't know how to get these out, I don't know how to articulate them, I don't know how to Yeah, but because you're running under the assumption that you're gonna be the one to do it. But the whole point of being in an environment or being around people is the same way that you would, right? As a therapist, you're gonna go in and ask a question, yeah, the same way a family, a friend, or whoever anyone in your environment would do the same. Yeah, they are they ask you a question that you wouldn't necessarily ask yourself because you've reached the end of that thought process narrative that you were running, yeah, and someone's posed something to you in a slightly different way that you wouldn't necessarily have done yourself, and that's unlocked the thing in you. Or someone said something to you, or you read something, or you watched something, or like you've taken in a big piece of art, or like whatever, and that's unlocked something in you. That got you that's got you thinking about all of these sorts of things.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Yeah, yeah. And that's why I can't take therapy as one approach as a one size fits all, because I see some clients need a bit more of this. They mean it might need a bit of something else, and it's so important to honor that because it honors who they are in their own journey.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Yeah. But is it honors your discernment as a professional being understanding of other people's wants and needs, of being like, yeah, no, this isn't a one-size-fits-all, because everyone's experiences aren't the same. So, how can you have a one size fits all? Yeah. Um, when the whole point is supposed to be tailored to who's who's in front of you and what what they need and what you feel like this would help them with. Um, some things work for certain people, some things don't. Like the same way going back to journaling, writing about really traumatic things might really traumatize people. Whereas talking about it might be a bit easier because you're not running that same narrative in your head because someone's guiding you through those questions and deliberately taking the conversation in a different way that you wouldn't necessarily be the thought of or to even write on.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Yeah, absolutely. Depends on the trauma. It does. And and patterns and conditions and all of these other things that we have to to sit with to understand more about ourselves. But once we it's a it's a muscle to be stretched and and to um practice, yeah, like any other thing. Yeah, and I love it.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

The more you do it, the better you get right.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Yeah, I love hearing my clients say, Oh, yeah, like I I was feeling this way, so I sat with it. And they just go on talking. And I'm like, hold on, just pause there, let's just recognize that you sat with this yourself. This is incredible.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

And they're like, Yeah, oh yeah, what would Nietzsche say to me? What would you ask me? Live awful self-stuff.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

And I'm just like fast track that process, and they're like, Oh yeah, I didn't even realize that, you know, and it's it's yeah, because they've autopiloted it at that point, it's just become their default, and they don't realize it. Yeah, and I say this to my clients I I love working with you, but there will be a point where you don't need me, and the whole aim of my work is that you don't need me, that I'm here as your your stabilizers as your scaffolding until you're ready to Yeah, you're not creating a culture of dependency.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

No, the whole point is you're supposed to be able to self-regulate. I'm just trying to help you do all of that, yeah. So you can be independent, give you the toolkit, give you the knowledge, the experience, and be like, you've done it enough yourself now that you don't need me. Um, unfortunately, there's a lot of people that aren't like you that will see that as a their eyes will light up like the amount of list of problems or issues that people are dealing with, and they will see that like that's my cash cow that's walked in, that's my mortgage paid. Um that's my holidays, that's my car payment, like whatever, and they use it in that way.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Yeah, um and just I develop this this framework in this way where I'm you know, with the greatest respects, I'm saying after four to six months, like you shouldn't need me anymore, right? We're doing the work.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

If you do, then I haven't done my bit right, clearly. Like, yeah, no, like the thing is I get it as a teacher. Sometimes you you have to honor, like, if you don't get it, it's not because you don't get it, it's because I'm I'm not explaining myself properly, and that's why it's not landing with you, clearly. Yes, yeah. So as much as it is on them, sometimes it is on us. Absolutely, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

Yeah, and it's part of my work to understand where is it not landing, what needs to do we slow things down even more? Maybe there's a different aspect. There is there's so much involved because we are so different, yet so similar as well. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

The universal things will always be common, but then the things that are different are completely unique to that individual. Yeah, so yeah, even four to six months is come on, you're doing well, you're doing well to change someone's life around in four to six months. Some people will promise you six to eight sessions, and you're like, bro, but I still feel the same. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:11

You know what I mean? It's just context, isn't it? It just depends on what someone's dealing with.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Yeah, but I don't do these quick fix thingies because it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_00 34:20

And I think there's a a level Well it lot it works temporarily, it doesn't have long lasting long-term impact on either the the individual or how they frame their life.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

So we go in a little bit deeper, but we make it more transformative, like 100% things are I always say to my clients that you'll come out as like you won't just be niche, you'll be niche 2.0. Like you would have done a whole, you know, a whole platform upgrade upgrade, absolutely. Because you can do the work, let's do it properly, let's just like you know, knock it on the head once and for all, detailed. And then I want to see you like fly and absolutely have like the the best life afterwards, and that you came in, you you did your time, we had our journey, and off you go, like just go and enjoy it now, because that's what it's about.

SPEAKER_00 35:06

Yeah, yeah. Do doing it doing your time is definitely, I think, the best way of describing it. Not that it's a prison sentence, yeah. Not that it's a prison sentence, but you have to appreciate that certain things take time, they do, and if you invest it appropriately, then you'll see the results, the rewards for that in real time later on in your life, perhaps, even. Um yeah, amazing.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Yeah, yeah.