Beyond the "Nice Guy": How To Build Authentic Confidence That Attracts (w/Jason L.)

If you’ve ever wondered why “being a good guy” still isn’t leading to the relationship you want, this conversation puts language to the problem and a roadmap to the solution. I sit down with Jason Lange, a men’s embodiment coach and certified No More Mr. Nice Guy coach, to talk about the quiet ways men lose themselves in dating: people-pleasing, hiding desire, avoiding tension, and trying to earn love by staying “easy” instead of being real.

We break down Nice Guy Syndrome, the “man box” pressure to be invulnerable, and why so many men live from the neck up, then feel confused when partners ask for emotional presence. You’ll hear the difference between domination and relational leadership, plus a surprisingly useful tango metaphor for what attunement actually looks like.

We also get practical about modern dating dynamics: how clear planning builds trust, why emotional leadership matters (especially around defining the relationship), and how men’s groups create the brotherhood, accountability, and nervous system resilience that makes intimacy easier at home. 

If you want a healthier form of masculinity that includes both strength and heart, this one is for you. It is also a great episode for women to understand the challenges men face in dating!

Find Jason here

Transcript

Welcome And Why Men's Work Matters

Host Tea 0:01

Hey you. Welcome to The Dating Chit, a space designed to help you move beyond assumptions and guesswork so you can date and love with clarity and confidence. I'm your host, Tea. Today, my guest is Jason Lange. Jason is a man's embodiment coach and a certified no more Mr. Nice Guy coach. He helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their life's purpose and relationships. He believes every man should be in a man's group for the growth and support opportunities they provide. Jason joins me today to share his personal evolution within the world of man's work, exploring the vital roles that emotional connection, leadership, and vulnerability play in modern relationships. He's here to give us the toolbox men need to develop true confidence, authenticity, and a healthy sense of masculinity. In this conversation, we're diving deep into the path of transformation, the manbox, the power couple, relational leadership, and the brotherhood. A quick note this episode isn't just for the guys. To the woman listening, this is a window into the unique challenges that the men in your life are facing. Understanding these hurdles might just be the key to supporting and caring for them in a whole new way. Let's dive in. Hi Jason, how are you?

Speaker 2 1:34

I'm doing great. Excited to be here with you.

Host Tea 1:37

I like to dive right in. As I understand, you have been men's coach and leading individual in the couple therapy for over eight years, right?

Speaker 2 1:46

Yeah, I've been doing men's work, so to speak, since about a little over eight years, actually, since uh about 2017-2018.

Host Tea 1:54

I would love for you to share. How did you get into it? I know you must have a personal story

Jason's Story Of Disconnection

Host Tea 1:59

behind it.

Speaker 2 1:59

My journey into men's work and becoming , you know, a facilitator of men's work really started with my own personal journey of growth and transformation that really goes back to the beginning. In a sense, I was raised in the Midwest of the US, kind of lower middle class, white guy, had a lot of privilege, all my basic security needs met. But as I entered adolescence, I started to be confronted with the fact that uh I was raised a little differently in my family than a lot of people were. And where this first started to show up was around women. And I was going through puberty, and I was really uncomfortable around them. I would get really anxious in my body, sweaty, didn't know how to talk to them, didn't know how to approach them, and simultaneously started building some male relationships in my life and realized, wow, these guys, they relate to each other differently than I do. They they horseplay, they actually kind of wrestle each other. There, there's like affection. And long and short of it, this started to uncover for me that in the family I was raised in, you know, they were doing the best they could, but there was no physical or emotional connection in my household growing up. So we didn't physically embrace or provide each other with comfort, and we never really talked really about anything, about what was going on inside of us.

Host Tea 3:23

I can really resonate with that because I grew up in China and uh in our Chinese culture, and that's how it goes. We're not expressing love verbally and we don't really hug, and that's not part of our culture. Yeah. So I know what you're saying.

Speaker 2 3:37

Yeah, totally. And so that really showed up, particularly for me. I had um, I had a little bit more connection with my dad growing up, but with my mom as kind of non-existent. And I realized, wow, I I couldn't even remember the last time she had physically held me by the time I was a teenager. Like I could I didn't have any memories, right? Doesn't mean she didn't carry me when she was a little baby, but it just wasn't part of our programming. And so what this culminated in is, you know, as I became a teenager and grew into an adult man, I really struggled with relationships. I could not successfully date and didn't have my first kiss until college, didn't lose my virginity until my mid-20s, which then carried a lot of shame with it itself of oh, you know, a man is supposed to be a little X, Y, and Z. And it got so painful because I saw the people around me starting to have relationships and have a type of connection and affection that I was longing for.

Host Tea 4:33

You crave for that, huh? Right.

Speaker 2 4:36

Yeah, exactly. And that really was what kicked off for me a journey of growth and transformation of okay, there's gotta be a better way to be. I don't feel I was often depressed and anxious and numb and coped with porn and food and all kinds of stuff that um didn't really help ultimately. But eventually I got on the path and you know, did so many different things therapy, medicines, all kinds of stuff. And it was really two things. Something worked. You're happily married. Yeah, no, yeah, things things changed exactly. But it was men's work, men's groups, and somatic therapy that really ended up changing the ball for me. And then in learning how to connect successfully and create the types of relationships I wanted, and eventually now my family with a beautiful wife. Turns out a lot of other guys struggled in the same way. And so it was um became clear to me I could help because it was a journey I knew, right? I'm not the guy who from a young age dated tons of women, had lots of success, which some guys do, but there's a lot of guys who like, I don't even know where to start, right? I try really hard and uh I can't get a second date, or I can't even get a date to begin with. So my journey started supporting those guys. Um, a lot of times, often late bloomers or nice guys like me who haven't had a lot of experience, but really have incredible hearts and really want to create an amazing relationship, just sometimes don't have the training for how to kind of get through the hump of those first couple of dates to really create connection and intimacy.

Nice Guy Syndrome Explained

Host Tea 6:07

Well, thank you for sharing that personal story. So, Jason, you're a certified so-called no more Mr. Nice Guy coach. Tell us more about that.

Speaker 2 6:18

Yeah, so the author of that book, Dr. Robert Glover, is a friend and mentor of mine. I've actually been in a men's group with him for a number of years. And nice guy syndrome, as he so-called called it, is a pretty big thing with uh a lot of guys I work with now. And, you know, kind of how it's shaken out is for a lot of men I work with, the nice guy is a um response to a lot of men have been raised, and particularly in the last 10, 15 years, with me too, and all the obvious examples and culture we have of how unintegrated men in the masculine can cause a lot of damage in relationships with kids, with partners, etc. And so there's a lot of men who were raised either by a man or seeing men who kind of were the old school macho jerk. I just take what I want, I go for what I need, screw everyone else along the way. And there's a huge subset of men who see that and say, I don't want to be that. I don't want to be an abuser or a womanizer or make people feel uncomfortable. I'm gonna be nice, right? And what this tends to create in a lot of ways is the so-called nice guy, which is a guy who, in an attempt to make other people feel safe and good, abandons himself, his own desires, his own needs, boundaries in a sense, and tries to just be nice to everyone, right? And for a lot of guys, this shows up in dating, right? Of the guy who gets the feedback sometimes. You're a really nice guy, but I'm just not feeling it, right? I don't feel an erotic connection with you. Nice guys, while they're trying to be nice, often end up not really getting what they want and making people uncomfortable long term.

Host Tea 8:10

And being unhappy.

Speaker 2 8:12

Being unhappy, right? And not getting the types of relationships they want. So Dr. Glover wrote about this is nice guy syndrome is really just a kind of codependency that a lot of men um fall prey to. That if you're not okay, I'm not okay. So I'm gonna do whatever it takes to make you feel okay and not uncomfortable.

Host Tea 8:33

So it sounds like um it's an issue of being balanced, right? Yes. A nice guy is great, but you know, also knowing what you want, what do you need, and then you can nurture a healthier relationship together.

Speaker 2 8:46

That's exactly it. And for a lot of guys, there's this kind of artificial binary of for many men, what they're modeled is either or. Either you're that kind of powerful, go get it guy who's often kind of a jerk, not very sensitive, or you're the very kind of safe, friendly, sensitive guy, but who doesn't have that kind of oomph, that power, that direction. And so the the work of so many men these days is learn to embrace both.

Host Tea 9:18

That will really benefit us women.

Speaker 2 9:21

Yeah, right. And and and women actually they desire it, right? They they really want a man who can stand in his power, but also isn't dominating. Yeah, he's not a jerk. He's relational. Yeah, he's not a jerk, he's attuned, he cares, and he can say what he wants, and he can lead her, you know, in some big um in important ways. And that's a skill set a lot of men just don't

Dominating Versus Relational Leadership

Speaker 2 9:43

have.

Host Tea 9:43

I do want to touch more on that point. Men feeling lost and don't know how to lead and being confused with dominating versus leading. Would you share more about that?

Speaker 2 9:55

Absolutely. So when I kind of talk about dominating, I'm often talking more about that kind of old school thing, which is just I go for what I want regardless of what you want, right? I'm gonna make you do this or I'm gonna do this. So it's often the kind of lower body, what you know we say in men's work is like it's a lot of balls, right? It's a lot of that power that I want this, but there's no heart, there's no attunement, there's no sensitivity. That tends to be dominating. It's this way, it's my way or the highway, right? And there's plenty of evidence about what that kind of masculinity does in the world. Leading in this new sense, what's so key about it is it requires both. It requires power, knowing what I want, being able to ask for it, name it, but it also requires attunement, an open and sensitive heart where what I'm doing is I'm sharing what I want and I'm listening to you and attuning to you to get a sense of what you want, and how can I lead us both closer to that? Right. And it's super clear, we often, you know, have internalized this. One of the biggest places we see kind of lead and follow culture isn't just in partner dance, right? Whether it's tango or salsa or uh swing. Yeah, I have a good example now on in tango. Yeah, right, someone has to lead.

Host Tea 11:21

Yeah, I was learning tango with my ex, and I guess he wasn't much of a dancer. He wasn't leading me, and so therefore, we could not really dance properly. He has to lead, he has to like and guide me to direction where he wants to go, so I know where to go. That's how tango works, right?

Speaker 2 11:40

Yeah, it's a beautiful example of um the leadership we're talking about here. And what's important about it is if he doesn't give you enough leadership, you get lost, right? Like are we moving this way? Are we moving and it's clumsy and you step on each other's feet and it's not fun? Exactly. Um, he needs to give you enough direction that you can kind of relax into that. And though, this is the important thing that's different than dominating, he has to be attuned to you. He has to feel your body. And okay, maybe I want to go this way right now, but her body's actually over here. If I go this way right now, it might knock her off balance or make her uncomfortable or actually hurt her. So I have to attune to, I want to go this way. She's not ready yet. So I have to slow down or guide, and now we can pivot this way. That's it's the beautiful example of what separates healthy leadership these days from domination is just that thing. It's attunement. It's being attuned to the other person and my impact on them and their desires and my desires and how they relate. And when we can bring both as men in this day and age, it's

Why Planning Dates Builds Trust

Speaker 2 12:47

amazing. Partners are like longing for it because one of the many challenges a lot of guys that I work with now come up against is the great news is in the last, you know, 50, 60 years, it's still changing around the world, but here, particularly in the West, women have been liberated from homemakers and the old, okay, you're a woman, so you got to be a mother. You're, you know, it wasn't even that long ago. You have a bank account as a woman, right? Like not that long or couldn't vote. And so this is all great, but what has happened, we tend to live here in the, you know, in the US at least, in a pretty hyper-masculine culture. It's about achievement, go, execute, job, make money, go, go, go, go. And so there's a lot of women who have actually got very good at being in their masculine. I have desires, I have wants, I set goals, I can move towards them, I hold structure, I'm organized. And sometimes they're better at being in the masculine than the men they're trying to date. So men are like, oh my gosh, she's more successful than me, she makes more money than me. Hot, what do I do? Right? Because back in the day, a lot of relationships were based on he provides and, you know, all that. I see. That doesn't apply anymore.

Host Tea 13:59

So you're saying because of that social change, therefore, men today suddenly don't know what to do, and therefore they're confused about being a leadership role.

Speaker 2 14:11

Yes. So point of it being exactly that they come into a relationship and it's like, well, for a lot of men, they've fallen prey to this belief. Well, my job is to provide. What happens if my partner's making more money than me and she's the provider? What do I how do I lead in the relationship, right? So all the old roles and scripts, they don't really apply anymore. And what's being asked of men is to grow and develop new capacities in that just a lot of women who are very successful in their careers, and all day long, they're making decisions, executing in their nonprofit or their coaching career, whatever it is. They're like in their so so-called masculine all day. So the last thing they want to do when they go out on a date with someone is have to plan it and drive it and make all the decisions. They're actually longing for a man to come in and say, Hey, I'm really excited to take you out Sunday night. Here's what I'm thinking. Why don't we go to this place and then afterwards we can go here? I'll pick you up at this time. It might be a little chilly out, so bring a sweater.

Host Tea 15:15

So you're saying no matter how much changes it has been for a woman from 50 years ago to today, now that a woman has equality and we earn more, still, your point of being still, men should not be afraid to be the leader in the relationship.

Speaker 2 15:33

Yes. For men, if they can't at least demonstrate the capacity to lead in relationship, a lot of women won't trust them and won't want to be with them. Oftentimes, most women want to know their partner can take the reins and plan an adventure or create intimacy or guide the relationship in that same way they might guide a partner dance.

Host Tea 15:55

Definitely. Yes. Yeah, totally agree. Yeah. We need more of that quality in man.

Breaking Out Of The Man Box

Host Tea 16:01

You mentioned about man box.

Speaker 2 16:04

Yeah.

Host Tea 16:04

I'd love to hear more about that. Is that also relate to man's work and the leadership of man?

Speaker 2 16:10

Definitely. What is challenging for so many men is there's this idea of literally they call it the man box, right? And inside of the box are all these qualities and attributes, these checkboxes, that if you don't check them, you're not considered a man. And the biggest one, almost cross-culturally, is that to be a man means to be invulnerable, means to be tough, to not be weak, to never share emotionally, to not need help, to be totally self-reliant, right? You can start to feel that sounds a little extreme. It is extreme, and it's a huge pressure a lot of men are under. That's not human. It's not human at all. And it's challenging in that there was this great research study that came out a couple of years ago that I think really kind of named this. They asked both men and women two questions. What marks the transition from a girl to becoming a woman and from a boy to becoming a man? And both men and women, for women, it's her physiological changes, her body change, she has a cycle, she's rear children, she's a woman now. For men, the answer was not the same for men or women. It wasn't based on how physically mature they were, it was based on their behavior and how they were showing up in their life and the ability. Yes. So how are the so you could have a fully mature man in a you know, uh, adult body, but oh, he's failed to launch. He's a boy, right? He's not a man yet. He doesn't take responsibility for his life. And that's a version of the man box in a sense, where it's about behavior. To be a man means certain types of behaviors. Where the man box becomes limiting is it teaches men this culture of going at it alone, trying to be tough, and disconnecting from their bodies and emotions from a very young age.

Host Tea 18:09

I see that disconnection a lot.

Speaker 2 18:12

Yeah, right. And it's one of the challenges, again, that men have then in dating because they get into a relationship and their partner's like, I don't feel you. What are you feeling?

unknown 18:21

Right.

Host Tea 18:22

I think a man have those kind of symptoms, and they also shows being avoidant.

Speaker 2 18:29

He gets very avoidant or addictive, in the sense of right, part of the challenge for so many of us guys is we're taught to be disembodied, to not be in our bodies. Emotions start as sensations in our bodies. So if we're not in our bodies, we're not gonna be connected to what we're feeling. And if we're not connected to what we're feeling and we can't share it, you're not gonna feel very connected to me, and I'm not gonna have the capacity to feel very connected to you. I'm gonna get uncomfortable, right? If you're feeling sad or mad at me or scared. For a lot of men, an emotional woman is like, oh my God, I gotta fix this, I gotta make her feel different.

Host Tea 19:11

Yeah, we have to be able to uh let each other understand how we feel, what we need, right?

Speaker 2 19:18

Exactly.

Host Tea 19:19

Otherwise, we can't get through that.

Speaker 2 19:21

Totally. And so the manbox is part of what limits men and their capacity to do that, to actually be in their bodies.

Host Tea 19:29

Part of your work is to unbox the manbox. Is that what you're trying to do?

Speaker 2 19:36

Yeah, to say that, you know, just like women were allowed to come out of the home and be in the world and have goals and individuality and agency, part of the journey for men has been well, we're allowed to go inside and have feelings and emotions and get scared and be vulnerable. And totally reasonable. And I don't see that weak or you know, being exactly right. That's that's this that's the truth of it. So we're we're having to push back against that culture and show actually, yeah, and become more trustable.

Host Tea 20:11

I want my partner to be able to show his vulnerability in front of me. Exactly, right? That shows that I'm providing a safe space for him, right? And that's what partner does.

Speaker 2 20:23

Yes, exactly.

Host Tea 20:24

That's what a good relationship is.

Speaker 2 20:26

This is what a great relationship does, and that's where a lot of men get into relationships, but they haven't built the skills for how to do that. So you create a safe space and you ask me, like, hey, how are you doing? And he's like, I'm fine. And you're like, I don't think you're fine. And he's like, Oh no, I am, and then you know, that causes disconnection.

Host Tea 20:44

Do you consider that is one of the most common challenges that a man faced today?

Speaker 2 20:50

Yeah, for a lot of guys from a young age, they are taught to live from the neck up, like literally to be in their heads, not connected to their bodies, not connected to their feelings. So the process of bringing the body and the heart online is one of the most central challenges for guys to just learn to learn to live from head to toe, so to speak. And it's a thing often women intuitively feel, right? Wow, that guy, I can feel he's stuck up in his head versus wow, this is a guy I can feel head to toe, right? You can feel when a man is fully embodying himself. And if he's not embodying himself, it's often hard to trust him or feel connected to him, or frankly, feel turned on by him. Because if he's just stuck up in his head, it's usually not very attractive if a man's just sitting there thinking and ruminating, right? It's not really where desire comes from. So for men to learn to get into their bodies is a huge shift and has massive payoffs, not just in intimacy, but in their health and well being. And often even in their careers.

Host Tea 22:02

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, definitely affects every aspect of one's life. When we were talking about leadership, it's also an aspect of being masculine. Am I correct?

Speaker 2 22:14

Yeah, I think, I mean, I think there's versions of feminine leadership and masculine leadership. You know, one of the gifts of the masculine or men, whatever you would want to say on that, is providing direction in life, right? It's it's just that. It's providing direction.

Speaker 22:29

Yeah, I totally appreciate that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 22:31

Right. Because it takes energy to make a plan and execute it and stuff like that. So one of the great areas, yeah, it's very sexy. One of the areas where men can really differentiate themselves now is by bringing back the skill of taking the lead.

Emotional Leadership And Tough Conversations

Speaker 2 22:47

And what's really important is also including inside of that being able to lead the relationship emotionally as well. Meaning for a lot of women that is the biggest part.

Host Tea 22:59

I think that's a cent centerpiece of the whole relationship, right?

Speaker 2 23:03

Yeah. And the emotional connection. For a long time, emotional connection.

Speaker 23:07

A lot of the yeah.

Speaker 2 23:09

Yeah. Emotional labor has defaulted to women in the relationship. Oh my God, is he ever going to bring this up? Are we going to talk about? Are we dating? Are we single? Like, are we exclusive? You know, that often defaults to the woman. And so for men to be able to take that lead and create the space to have the conversations that matter if there's tension in our intimacy or there's something vulnerable we need to share or talk about or there's conflict is completely game-changing. Where instead of him waiting for her to bring it forward, he creates the space of, hey, we've been dating now for two or three months. How's it going for you? I'm really enjoying this. I think I would like us to become exclusive. But what's it like for you? What do you think? Right? Literally just initiating the conversation, having that emotional leadership can completely be a gift to the feminine because often they're used to being the ones to have to do that.

Host Tea 24:08

I noticed that men reluctant of opening that conversation anymore today. And we're being women left not sure what's going on. And, you know, we're not designed to be taking that lead to ask questions like that. Hey, are we supposed to be in a relationship now? Can I be your girlfriend now? Right? We don't ask questions like that. But we're often felt being put in the corner of having to clarify that. It's super awkward.

Speaker 2 24:40

Yeah, yeah. And it puts, right? In in the work, we call that it it reverses polarity because it puts you in the position of having to take the lead, which again, it doesn't mean a woman can't ever do that. My wife and I switch that all the time. But if that's only what's happening, what will likely happen in your case, like say a woman's case where she's having to take the lead all the time, is she's gonna lose attraction for him. Like, oh my God, it's so much work to be in a relationship with him. I gotta bring this up again. I wish he would just talk, you know.

Host Tea 25:15

Yeah, a man who is afraid to talk at the most critical moments, like for example, defining a relationship. If you can't talk, it's just not attractive. It's not reflecting your ability, being a man, in my understanding.

Speaker 2 25:33

Exactly. And it it doesn't necessarily make you want to be close to him, right? To relax.

Host Tea 25:38

Yeah, it does not nurture the closeness. Yeah.

Speaker 2 25:41

Exactly. So again, it's a skill and it's a capacity, men more and more are being asked to step into, I think, to provide these check-ins, guidance, leadership. And in a lot of ways, something I hear from a lot of women, and you know, frankly, I'm still in process and I have to practice it all the time. Be willing to move towards emotional tension. So instead of, oh my God, I get a sense my partner's maybe a little sad or angry today, and I'm just gonna avoid that because I don't want to go there. It's like, no, hey, I noticed something feels a little different in our connection today. Like, are you upset with me, or is there something going on? Because I just want to know. Leading in that way, right? See, look what it's doing to you, just even imagining it. You're like, oh right, so we want that. Yeah.

Host Tea 26:30

We want men, more men be doing that.

Speaker 2 26:33

Yeah, right. This is the impact it has, and why I say men can differentiate themselves by learning some of these skills to um yeah, lead in the traditional sense of making plans and driving things forward, but also lead in the emotional sense of being able to create space for intimacy and conversations and connection and vulnerability.

Host Tea 26:55

Wow. Sounds like there are a lot of work that can be done.

Speaker 2 27:00

Yeah, totally. It's all very trainable, is the the good news, right? So it's not that men can't do this, it's just a lot of times we've never been taught what it means to be relational, to be connected to our emotions, to not be scared of your emotions, how to talk about things in relationship. These are just tools that a lot of men are not given the toolkit for, right? We're kind of sold the fantasy in Hollywood of, oh, you meet and then you fall in love and then you're happily ever after. And what those stories never cover is no, love is something you gotta like work at, right? It's a process with a partner of rupture and repair and leadership and vulnerability.

Host Tea 27:41

And you have to be strong enough to want to stay in those moments of difficulties, right?

Speaker 2 27:47

Absolutely, yes.

Staying Present When Things Get Hard

Speaker 2 27:49

Yeah, another piece of that work I do with men is building resiliency in their nervous system, stay present when things get hard emotionally, or if they're scared, or if they're overwhelmed, to say, hey, I'm still here.

Host Tea 28:02

Wow, I can tell you're really mad at relationship, right? Whoever you choose to be with, there are gonna be moments like that. And it's so important to have that real resilience and to stay there, to not leave and to get through that with your partner, then you can actually have a successful relationship. If you leave every time you have a problem, then no matter who you meet, you know, it's never gonna last.

Speaker 2 28:28

Exactly. you're just gonna keep hitting the same problems over and over and over again, which is very confronting to men. And often when men will come to me where they're like, Yeah, you know, I've been in three or four relationships over 20 years or married four times, and I'm starting to realize maybe the common denominator is me. And there's something I'm bringing to the table. Yeah, that I need to do some work on of how, yeah, I'm in avoidant in relationship, or I'm overly anxious, or I don't share my feelings, or I don't take the lead, or you know, different things that play out that men can then uh learn the skills so they can show up differently and create more connection and intimacy in a successful relationship.

Brotherhood And Men's Groups

Host Tea 29:11

I know you suggest every man should join a man's group.

Speaker 2 29:15

Big part of my mission is getting men connected to other men, in that there's something magic that happens when men sit in community with each other. It's how we grow, it's how we get feedback, and it's how we actually learn the skills we can then bring back to our intimate partnership. And this is, you know, we talked about vulnerability earlier on. This is a big one I often see where it can be challenging for both partners because a lot of men don't take the time to build healthy male relationships around them. And so it puts a lot of pressure on their intimate relationship because let's say I'm a man, I've never felt comfortable sharing my emotions with another man. Sometimes the only person I feel comfortable with is sharing it with my partner. But if you're the only one I'm sharing my struggles and challenges with, it actually can change the relationship because then suddenly it's like, well, you're you're having to be my mother and my therapist, and you can tell I don't feel okay. So you feel responsible for me. And that can also start to change the chemistry of a relationship. So what's great about a men's group is it just gives us somewhere else to bring our process so we can get support and accountability and then bring that back to our relationship. So I've seen this in, you know, my own marriage where it's very different, you know, particularly when I first got married, my I was a little more avoidant. So if I would get stressed, I would kind of get quiet, pull back, withdraw a little bit. Even if it had nothing to do with my wife, I would withdraw from the relationship. She would interpret that as, oh my God, he doesn't love me anymore, or he's gonna leave me, or something's wrong, right? So she would get nervous about it. And luckily, I was in, you know, men's groups at the time. And there was one time it was really clear, like, I need to do this differently. And she was like, you know, what is going on with you? And thankfully, I just sat in my men's group like the night before. And turns out I was under a lot of financial stress. I had just started being as a coach. This was like a decade ago, was not making any money, was going into debt, felt really scared about how I was gonna, you know, eventually start a family with her and all that.

Host Tea 31:29

Yeah, that's tough.

Speaker 2 31:30

And my men had helped me process that that, hey, you need to plan. How are you gonna all that stuff? And so, point of it being is I was able to come back to her and just look her in the eye and say, Yeah, I'm just in a place right now where I just feel like I'm losing everywhere and I want to be winning. And that's really hard for me. And just sharing that to her and and saying, and my men are helping me make a plan for how to turn things around. That's awesome. The whole nervous story. The whole nervous system just relaxed, right? Like, oh, that's where you're at.

Host Tea 32:03

You don't need me to fix it, but I feel closer to you knowing what you're struggling with, and knowing you're working on yourself, knowing you're looking for solutions.

Speaker 2 32:12

And that I had support around me holding me accountable versus if I didn't have a group and I was like, I'm just I'm terrified. I'm so scared. I don't know how I'm gonna pay rent next month. I don't know how we're gonna start a family, I don't know what to do, honey. Right? Like if I was coming at you with that energy, then she's like, whoa, oh my God, that's like scary because I don't I don't know how to handle that. So it what I say is it's just when men are also holding us in our vulnerability, it comes across very differently when we share it with our feminine partners in particular.

Host Tea 32:44

After you're telling me that, I do see the value of being in a man's group for man.

Speaker 2 32:48

Yeah, and it's where they get connection, support, where they can get accountability and feedback. You know, I can't tell you how many times I've gone to a men's group and been all charged up about something going on in my relationship or my marriage, and like make the case, oh my God, my wife's so blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm, you know, it's her fault, it's not my fault. And, you know, the guys listen to me for five, 10 minutes. They know me, they know our story, and they're like, dude.

Speaker 33:12

Calling you out.

Speaker 2 33:13

Do you see how you're contributing to this dysfunction and that maybe you have something to do with it? And it's like, oh crap, you're right.

Speaker 33:21

Oh, that's total therapy. That's like effective therapy.

Speaker 2 33:24

And they help me see something, which then instead of going home and having a fight with my partner, I get to come into a relationship and say, hey, I know this thing isn't working between us, and I can now see my part in it. And I'm committed to changing that. And man, what a proactive way to come at relationship. Your partner's like, oh my God, well, I want to change that too. And instead of it being a fight, it's like a collaboration. So, I mean, there's so many benefits to being in a group around connection and learning to express emotionally and vulnerably and be held accountable.

Host Tea 33:59

You must made a lot of friends, in Men's group.

Speaker 2 34:02

Yeah, I mean, all my closest male relationships are now men I sit in circle with. And in a lot of ways, um, once I experience the depth of that kind of connection, I'm a lot less interested in kind of surface level, just going out and drinking beers with guys, kind of things, because it just doesn't nourish me in the same way.

Host Tea 34:21

Well, that's that's great. I love everything you have told me so far, Jason. We talk so much about leadership, man, men's fear, and man's confusion and importance of uh joining a man's group. Is there anything else that you'd like to share with our male audience today?

Speaker 2 34:41

Get support, right? It's much harder to grow and change alone. And if you know I've learned anything in this work, it's a friend of mine gave me this phrase, you know, he's like, community is immunity. It's what helps us thrive in life and navigate the challenges. And one tip for men, and you know, you can you can tell me your experience as a woman uh about this, but it was certainly something my wife shared with me. And now I've heard from many women that uh one of the first things that really kind of ooh, my wife when we met was when she met the men in my life. So she met the men I was surrounded by. And when she experienced, wow, these are really deep, high quality, trustable men.

Host Tea 35:29

It speaks so much of what kind of person you are. It does, it matters.

Speaker 2 35:34

Yes. So women, whether they're conscious of it or not, when they meet a man, they are looking at who does he have around him? Because his support system, assuming you build a relationship with him, becomes part of your support system. So if he's not well supported, he's not going to be able to support you well, right? My best man, I remember uh at my wedding, he literally had a two-sentence speech when we got married. He's like, While you hold Violet, I hold you. And that was that's the whole thing, right? So you get to hold and support your wife and family, and me and the men in your life. We hold you while you're holding them. And when you imagine a whole circle of that of men doing that for each other, that's love, each other's partners and families, it's extraordinarily powerful. So, as men, the investing in other men is you investing in your intimate relationship. That's maybe that's the takeaway I'm trying to point out there.

Host Tea 36:38

Thank you so much, Jason, for sharing everything you've learned and you practiced.

Speaker 2 36:42

Yeah,

Where To Find Jason

Speaker 2 36:43

my pleasure.

Host Tea 36:43

If anybody will be interested in talking to you about the men's group or anything, where can they find you?

Speaker 2 36:50

Yeah, best place to keep up with me if you like what I'm talking about here is at my website, which is evolutionary.men. So it's not.com, but it's.men. And on there, you'll see the programs I run, things I write. I have the podcast of my own that's really all about men's groups. You can reach out and say, hey, I don't know where to get started. there's all kinds of resources there that can help you build the kind of community and make the changes and learn, you know, what it means to lead in this way we've talked about, which is not the old kind of caveman way and also not the pushover way, but it's that that integrated way that is so comforting and trustable to be around now, of a man who has both strength and heart.

Speaker 37:30

Well, guys, reach out.

Three Takeaways And Farewell

Host Tea 37:34

Thank you for staying with us till the end. Today, we really pulled back the curtain on the hidden barriers men face from the confines of the man box to the transformative power of vulnerability and community. I hope you're walking away with the same realization that I am that true leadership is about balancing strengths with a sensitivity and ultimately leading with heart. As you reflect on today's conversation, here are three things to take with you. First, embrace vulnerability. It's a strength, not a weakness. Second, don't do it alone. Build or find a supportive community to help you grow. And third, lead your relationships with attunement and clear boundaries. That is where deep connection lives. If this episode brought you value, please hit a subscribe, leave us a rating or review, and share this with a friend who needs to hear it. Word of mouth is how we grow this mission. If you want to connect with Jason or dive deeper into his work, all of his links and information are waiting for you in the show notes. Thank you again for tuning in to this episode of the dating chat. I'm your host, Tongalag Liu, aka Tea. Until next time. Keep showing up. Stay kind, stay curious, and never settle for less than the love you truly deserve. See you in the next episode.