Divorcing with Kids (Ep. 16)

Today, we answer a dad asking how to talk to his kids about divorce without scaring them or oversharing. Differing ages and a child from a previous relationship only further complicate matters. 

Kenzie & Carli break down strategies for keeping the conversation age-appropriate, handling tough questions, and helping kids feel safe and heard during a big family change.

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Find Kenzie at therapy-with-kenzie.com or @therapywithkenzie

Find Carli at Psychology Today Profile or @carlikinglmft

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello and welcome. I'm Kenzie. And I'm Carly, and this is Ask a Therapist.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Each week we explore life's most relatable questions, from relationships and boundaries to burnout and self-worth, all through a therapist lens.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

We're licensed therapists, but this isn't therapy. It's a place for insight, reflection, and a little humor along the way.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Your questions, our insights, ask a therapist. This podcast is intended for entertainment and educational purposes only. The content shared should not be considered a substitute for professional mental health care, diagnosis, or treatment. We strongly encourage listeners to seek help from a licensed mental health professional for any personal or psychological concerns.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

Any advice or commentary offered is based solely on the information provided. As such, we cannot guarantee any specific outcomes, and the feedback given should not be interpreted as professional mental health advice. If you are experiencing a mental health crisis, please call 911-988 or 211.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Ask a Therapist. This is episode 16, and this week we are focusing on how to communicate with your kids around your divorce. We want to share a quick reminder that while our questions are specific to listener submissions, the insight and responses we share are meant to be supportive and applicable to anyone who may be listening. If you are needing some insight into communicating around divorce or just curious about your own, about our therapist's perspective on this, this episode is for you. We are excited to explore this with you all. So we're gonna get started. And Carly, today we've got an icebreaker. This is like kind of a cute one and and um is a little bit tied to our question for today. But our icebreaker for this week is if kids could write the rule book for adults during hard moments, what do you think the number one rule would be?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Oh, the number one? I'm thinking of a few. Um I say rule.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Yeah, I think maybe one multiple rules that would be wrapped up. I think kids just want to know like, am I safe? Like, are things gonna be okay? Right? Like at the core of um all of their questions, I think that's what they want to know. So I think the rule would be reassure me that it's gonna be okay. Like the bare basic um at the core of it, I think.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

I love that. I I mean I don't I think that that absolutely is the number one um rule that kids would would give to adults is just that, like, yeah, am I safe or am I loved? Like give me that reassurance. So um I love that. I actually interpreted this question differently. So I'm going to give a completely different answer. As soon as you said it, I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense. For whatever reason, I read it or interpreted it as like if kids could write the book for adults when they're going through hard moments, like what would it be? And so I thought about a kid like giving adult advice and what they would say. Um, and for whatever reason, I just picture like kids being like essentially like being the calming, like, it's gonna be okay, mom, or it's gonna be okay, dad. Like, take a deep breath, like settle down a little, like, you know, essentially just kind of like let me help you calm down in the way that you help me calm down. And so my kind of first reaction was just kind of like like that reassurance of it's it's gonna be okay, and kind of how we talk about like parenting ourselves. Um and I also thought about um, this is like completely different, but this also came to mind. Um, I guess when I was when we were growing up, um my parents were in an argument. I was like pretty young, and they they were in an argument in the car, and like my dad turned on a radio, like a song on the radio or something, and my mom like turned it off, like she was like just so mad, like so angry. And um really being mad to do that, cut that um from the backseat. I was like, mom, if you were a little nicer to dad, I think he would be a little nicer to you. And she talks about that all the time. And she's like, it's true, like I like just that that rule. So that was the other thing that came up of kind of like what you give to people, you know, is important in what you get back. And um, so kindness, kindness matters and goes far. And so I thought of that as a little little kid advice too.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

That is so cute. Um I'm laughing at the response because my daughter has given me similar advice before. And when she likes to give it when I'm in the midst of being angry and trying to regulate, I it it brings out another side of me. I'm like, yeah, okay, don't don't tell me. Like I feel like my daughter's advice to me would be like, mom, keep it together. Like, what are you, you know, kind of like, let's go, you know, get it together, girl. You know, so yours sounded so nice and sweet. Mine is a little more harsh, but I think that could have been glorified 30 years later.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

So they're there.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

I think though at the core, we're kind of saying the same thing is like kids want things to be okay to feel like they can predict what's gonna happen. They know that things are safe, they know that whatever their normal is is gonna be maintained like in a positive way. And so I think at the core, whether they're, you know, asking for that reassurance or trying to give it, that that's what they're looking for, you know.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Yeah. Oh, what a perfect segue into our question for today. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

So today's question, um, I'm just gonna kick it right off. I'm a dad going through a divorce and could use some guidance on how to talk to my kids about it. They're five, eight, and twelve. Our divorce is relatively amicable, but my ex and I are not on the same page about what or when to tell them. I worry the most about our oldest. She's 12 and my wife's daughter from a previous relationship, but I'm the only dad she's known. I don't want her to feel abandoned, even though I plan to stay in her life as much as she and her mom are comfortable with. My ex wants to tell the kids as soon as possible and answer all of their questions honestly. I don't think it's healthy to overwhelm them with information they don't need or can't fully understand. I'd rather wait until I actually move out and keep the explanation simple without getting into details. What's the right amount to share at these ages? A dad trying to do the right thing. What do you think, Kenzie?

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Uh um, okay, the a dad trying to do the right thing just like absolutely touched on my heartstrings, and I think that um that is so obvious. Like this listener is absolutely a dad trying to do the right thing. Um, there's so much care, there's so much love in this question. Um, you know, it sounds like there are some differences of opinion on on what that means, how to get there. Um, and I have, you know, a lot of thoughts and a lot of different things that I want to touch on in this question, but I'm I'm gonna pause with just kind of like my first initial emotional response and just saying like that love is so obviously there and there is so much like care and concern in this question. Um, and I'm curious, Harley, what your initial response was too.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Yeah, same. I was really glad to get a letter from like this from a dad, you know, like where that level of care and thought is being put into um how the kids process the information. Um, I love the awareness and sensitivity to how the oldest daughter might be impacted a little bit differently than the younger kids. Um, I really appreciate the question of like what's the right amount to share at these ages because they are at different ages and different developmental stages in terms of what they can process. Um and I my initial thoughts is you're both right and wrong a little bit. So I don't know if you have, you know, in terms of him and and the ex-wife, there are aspects of what they're both suggesting that I think is really important um in a positive way. And then some areas where I'm like, I think you could maybe rethink this.

SPEAKER_00 8:42

So yeah. Oh, I'm so glad that you mentioned that because I kind of had a similar um response as well. And I'll touch on that a little bit. But my first thing was I just wanted to kind of like point out initially that I think that the instinct to not overwhelm them with information is spot on. I think that there is absolutely like some things that your kids can't understand or aren't responsible for in this conversation. And so um I think that that, you know, like that instinct to protect them from that is a really good one. I would be curious, you know, the way that the question was phrased was um, my ex wants to tell the kids as soon as possible and answer all of their questions honestly. I don't think it's healthy to overwhelm them with the information that they don't need or can't fully understand. To me, I would be curious about having a conversation with his ex around like, what what does honesty mean to you? Like, what are you wanting to tell them? How are you wanting to answer their questions? Because I think that you can be honest with your kids with without like bringing them into a into the middle of it or flooding them with information that they don't need to hold as kids. And so having that mutual understanding of like what does it mean to be honest with our kids? Because it is important to be honest with your kids, it is important to provide them with emotional safety. And can you be on the same page of what that looks like? Um, because I do think that they're owed that. And I think that a part of this divorce and this experience is going to be having difficult conversations with them. Um, but making sure that at the center of that is we love you, we care for you, we're gonna be there for you. Like you are, you are safe in this. And you know, I know this is something that has probably come up a lot, but like ultimately I I love my kids, we love our kids more than we are maybe frustrated with each other, like keeping the kids at the center of these decisions and and looking out for their best interests and how they can process this emotionally. What do you think, Carly?

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Agreed, agreed about the honesty piece. Um, yes, honesty is important, but at an age appropriate level, right? Like they're the five-year-old does not need to know all of the specific really, n they none of the children need to know all of the details, but you know, you want to give the truth at an age, at a um level that they can process. So yeah, I'm not for like flat out lying to kids, but telling kids that, you know, that's something that we may talk about later, but um not right now, or that's an adult problem that we're gonna figure out. You don't have to worry about that. I think are like appropriate ways to handle some of those maybe more direct questions that you don't necessarily want to um answer fully. Um also definitely like the the research suggests that it's not the divorce itself that like predicts the kids' outcomes. It is things like how much conflict they're exposed to, how much their stability is disrupted. Um are they moving? Is a parent moving? Like, you know, these are things that um kind of disrupt their normalcy and also like concerns about loss of parental love. You know, if they are seeing one parent less than they used to, how are they interpreting that? Are they feeling like they're less wanted or you know, things of that nature? Um, and so those are the things that you want to focus on, even if the marriage is actually over. Um, I'm not one who thinks you should stay for the kids, but to the point that you're making, you're not the only two people who are impacted by this, which is very you're very aware of that in in the letter. Right, right. Um it's it's changing their lives, right? Like forever to a degree. And so you obviously want to handle that with care, which is um exactly what was expressed in the letter.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

So yeah, absolutely. And just to touch on, I'm so glad that you brought um that up about what impacts the kids and and that conflict piece of like, yeah, it's not um necessarily the divorce, but that conflict piece can be a big part of it and something that I think is important for people to know if they are going through a separation or divorce. Um, conflict doesn't just have to be between you and your ex-partner. It like obviously you don't want to have that conflict or like any major fights or blow ups in front of your kids, but you also don't want to speak negatively about your ex-partner, about their parent in front of them, or even just like around them making any like quick remarks. That has been shown to be really damaging to kids because it can be so internalized by kids, right? So you might have you might have so much love for your kid and feel so frustrated with their parent and you might make remarks around that. But what your kid is hearing is that that's my parent. That's a part of me, that's a reflection of me. That's somebody that I love and that I care for. And when a parent makes a comment about their child's uh other parent, it can, it can make them, they can internalize it and they can feel like, oh, there might be something wrong with me. And so I just kind of put that, you know, I know that this listener said that it's amicable, um, but just something to consider for future and for, you know, anybody who might be listening to consider as well.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

100% agree with that. It always comes to bite you in the end when you bad mouth the other parent. Um, even if the child takes their side, because I I'm thinking about like say the 12-year-old, it is quite possible that she feels pulled in like a loyalty bind, um uh where she can side with her mom because that's her mom and you are technically not her dad. Um, but even still, you you never want to badmouth the other parent. Um, the child is gonna have their own experience of their parent, and everything that you can do to help secure that and maintain that is only going to be good for your kid, even if it doesn't, yeah, even if you don't feel fully vindicated in that frame, you know, because divorces don't just happen, right? They can be incredibly hurtful. The the listener did not um say why they were getting divorced. We don't know if there's infidelity, some sort of um financial abuse or something. We don't know what could have happened. And sometimes in your hurt, it is very easy to um wanna like kind of stake your claim a little bit and like, you know, that want the child to know to a degree that you're the good one, for lack of a better word. And um don't do that at me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It only hurts the kid, it hurts the kid way more than it hurts the your ex-partner. Um that being said, one area where I do agree with the wife is I do think sooner is better than later. Um waiting until you move out can make it feel like a secret was kept. Um and it can bring up distrust as you know, like if you weren't being honest about what was happening. It's also kind of making me question like, what is the living arrangement? Are you still sleeping in the same room? Um, where they where this is gonna like totally blindside the kids. They have no idea. You have dinner together every night, you know, things you all appear to be fine, and then all of a sudden, dad is moving. That just feels like the rug being pulled out from under them. Um and so I do think, you know, sooner rather than later is probably the better move. What do you think, Kenzie?

SPEAKER_00 16:56

I said the same thing. I, you know, I'm assessing a little bit of where this listener might be coming from of like, okay, I, you know, maybe like I want to have something concrete, or maybe I'm not sure. Like maybe there's a little bit of, well, this isn't official and I don't want to upset the kids until this actually happens. Um, and so there might be a little bit of like, well, I'm trying to protect them because I just want to, I want to have all the answers for them before we talk to them. Um, but I think you nailed it. That's a lot to process in the moment for a kid. And so giving them some time to process, to grieve, to have their emotional experience, to ask questions, like they don't want to be caught off guard in that way and then have this huge change happen. And and for you to not be there to be able to like help them process through or come come to you with what they might be feeling or what they might be experiencing. So I I also agreed with that of kind of, you know, it sounds like you maybe don't want to upset them with all without all the answers. But again, a part of this is going to be like having those difficult conversations, not having all the answers, but meeting their emotional need, like being able to say, I know that this is scary, I know that this is hard. I love you, your mom loves you, we are here for you, we're gonna support you, and I'm gonna I'm gonna be steady, I'm gonna be a safe place for you, even in this scary moment.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Yeah, you brought up something that I do think is important to touch on. Um, and that is if for any reason the decision is not completely final. Like if if you're unsure about whether or not this divorce is actually happening, then it maybe it is okay to take a little bit more time. You don't want to upend their lives and like, you know, if you all are not certain. And so you do want to come to a decision together. Um, I get that divorces, you don't always agree 100% that it's what you want per se, but it you do need to decide that this is what's happening. Um if not, and and where you are is just at like a separation, that needs to be decided, you know. But whatever is happening needs to be decided. Now, all the details about how, where, when, I think there can be some flexibility with that, right? Like saying like Dad will be moving, um, but he's in he's done the process of looking for a space. And so we're not sure how uh long that can take. You know, like at least they know that it's coming, they know that it will be happening. There, you know, like so. I think you you do want to be able to answer their immediate questions of like, what does this mean for me today? Like, am I waking up tomorrow and you won't be here, right? Like you want to be able to answer those because if everything is just still, if you just decided last night, like you don't want to come be like, well, I don't know, maybe tomorrow, maybe next year, maybe it's like kids are like, oh my God, what is gonna happen? Right. So the decision should be final. All of the steps and the details at least be able to answer the immediate, and then you can let them know there are still maybe some details that will be worked out.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, and I think that that, you know, kind of leads into this idea of like what what does it look like to have this conversation with your kids? What does it look like at the different ages? Um, so I think that the the same message kind of stays consistent for all of the kids in terms of we love you. This is not your fault. I think that's important, especially for like the five-year-old to know, right? Like just this idea of this is this is not you, this is not your fault. We love you. Um and you know, you both still love them and be a united front on that part of it. Um and for the five-year-old, right, saying, like, here's here's how our daily life is gonna continue. They don't need to know the why. That's a little bit too young to know like the why. Same with I mean, same with the eight-year-old and the 12-year-old. You don't need to give them all the details. Um, but the eight-year-old and 12-year-old might have a little bit more questions about like logistics. They might have some questions around like, well, what does this mean for our family? What does this mean for my soccer practice? What does this mean for um, you know, the this trip that we're supposed to go on? Like they they might think through some of those things a little bit more. Um, and so to answer those questions honestly, again, without dragging your partner, without saying, well, like, well, you're gonna have to ask your mother about that. She's the one that wanted this. Like, you need to be respectful of the kids and asking yourself, like, is this beneficial for them, or is this somehow meeting one of my processing needs? And if it's meeting one of your processing needs, that's not what you need to share. If it's benefiting them, that's what you can share. And I love what you said earlier, Carly. About, like, you know what, that's something that that your mom and I are dealing with together. This is this is something for adults to kind of figure out. And I I love you, I understand, I appreciate why you why you asked this. I know that you're worried, I know that you're scared. Your mom and I are working on that and we're figuring that out, but we love you. Um, and then the last thing that I was just gonna say was for the 12-year-old, I think that a good idea here would be for this listener to like pull the 12-year-old aside and have a conversation with her and just kind of say, like, hey, acknowledge some of these things. Like, I know that this, like, I know that this is gonna be hard. I want to be here for you and show up for you in the same way that I have been, and like acknowledge their relationship and the fact that he's not the biological father and what that means, but but his intention of still wanting to be there and show up um as her dad and um allowing for continued conversation or continued questions moving forward, kind of opening the door for that for all of the kids.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

Yeah, I I think I'm backing up just a little bit in all of the framing that you shared, it was a lot of like we uh in terms of the parents taking that united front. I think that's so important. If you're able to have the conversation together with the kids.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

Like as opposed to one of you going or your wife going alone because she thinks the conversation needs to happen. And so like I'm just gonna sit them down and talk to them. Um if you're able to talk together, that would be ideal. But then to the point that you're making, Kenzie, it they may have questions, like individual questions that they um, and so letting them know that they can also have individual time with you to like ask specific questions, um, I think is very important as well. And that will allow you to like address the questions at an age appropriate level. You mentioned the five-year-old and reinforcing that it's not their fault. Developmentally, they're still at a stage where it's hard for them to grasp the idea that things happen outside of them. Like they are still learning how they do something, and then there's like this cause and effect. You know, I cry, mom comes. I do this, and I get in trouble. I and so for something this big to happen, it is very hard for them to understand that it had nothing to do with them, right? Just developmentally, that's some, they're still understanding how the world works. So that's gonna be a key part of explaining to the five-year-old and keeping things like pretty concrete. You're still gonna see me and dad or me and mom, um, you know, like answering those basic questions.

unknown 24:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

The eight-year-old, and and we don't know the gender of the younger kids either. I do think that the kids may have a few more questions for their um same-sex parent. Uh, so depending, you know, if these are young boys, you may want to be prepared to answer a few more questions like one-on-one. If they're young girls, it's possible that they want to ask mom. Um, but the eight-year-old, like, they may want to know a little bit more about like, well, am I gonna have my own room there at your place? Or like, you know, they may have a few more questions. Um, what's gonna happen for the holidays? Are we still going to grandma and grandpa's? Are they coming here? Whose house will they come to? You know, they they kind of want to know a little bit more because they're they're able to think through, like, oh, so, you know, are you both gonna come to my performance? Or is one person, you know, come into soccer now? Or what, you know, those types of things. Um the 12-year-old, I agree, is probably there's the most nuance there, right? Because they're she's gonna be impacted a little bit differently. And so I think, you know, having that conversation with your ex first to even understand her comfortability with like continuing that relationship. I think as the only father that she's known, that's critical, biological or not. Um, that's a significant relationship. But I would prepare you, it is possible that she initially rejects that. Um depending on like I said, that loyalty bond. Um, or even what her mother may tell her, you know, that you may not be able to fully control that. The your ex-wife may be a little more willing to compromise with the younger ones. Um, but if she were to maybe share more details or things like that, it is possible that there's a rejection there. I would so strongly encourage you to not be intimidated by that. Um, to like, you know, work to maintain that relationship. She may test you to kind of see, like, okay, you said you're still going to be there, but what about if I do this? What if I reject you? You know, whether that's happening at a conscious level or not. So I would just kind of prepare for that possibility.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yeah. Oh, I love that you brought up the idea of being tested. Um, and I think that that probably goes for all of the kids as well. Um, you know, probably especially the 12-year-old, but for all of the kids, um, something that one of my first supervisors always said was parents should be bigger and bigger, kinder, and wiser. And so when kids are acting as kids or they're testing or they're hurt and they don't know how to say that or express that. And so they push you away or they yell or things like that. You're the parent, you be bigger, kinder, wiser, you see what's underneath some of those actions or underneath some of those words. Um, and to us to expect it, especially in a situation like this, right? Like kids are going to process things a little bit differently and on a different timeline. And and as this experience evolves, right? Maybe they start switching homes or things. Like there are going to be changes throughout. For them, it's not going to be as easy as like, okay, we decided this, we've all, we're all kind of ingredients, we've had this one conversation, and now, all right, we know we've settled like this is something that you and your ex have probably thought about and processed a lot longer than the kids have, and they need a little bit of time to to catch up and to go through their own emotional experience of it.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Yeah, I think that is more than fair and expect other forms of regression as well. You know, it's possible that the five-year-old now wants to sleep in your bed again. Or, you know, like you might have these moments or um where one starts just acting out a little bit, starts having some issues at school. Like these are very common things because their world is changing and they don't necessarily have control over it. And so they may start exercising their control in areas where they can, right? And I mean, in fairness, isn't that what most of us do? Um, so you know, they're they're just little people still trying to figure out the world around them. Um, and so you might I I would anticipate that those things can come up. There can be a delayed process with that. So it may be that everything seems to be fine. They like take it well or two take it well, and one has a reaction. And then there's like this delayed effect after you actually move or when the first birthday comes up, first holiday, you know, whatever. And that and those things kind of get unearthed, and they start realizing just how different things are. Um kids honestly, they can feel betrayed by divorce. You know, they may feel like, no, you're not allowed to do this. And if you can do this, can you divorce me? You know, okay. There's a lot of of that internalizing. And so just being, I love the way you describe it, like being steady for them and letting them know I love you just the same, no different. Um, you know, these are adult issues that you don't have to worry about, but you know, we're still gonna be here for you, you're still gonna be safe. Those things are so important because it's possible that they feel a little bit of their trust has been broken.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Right. Right, right. And just to, you know, like divorce is going to impact your kids, but the steadiness, the love, the way that you show up for them in this is going to help their emotional still. Like it's going to help them and their resilience. And so it is, it is a process. It is a continuous showing up, it is a continuous being steady, being loving, being supportive. And that love that you show to your kids is going to positively impact them. So, you know, it this is something that that is happening that is going to impact the family, but it doesn't have to be like as scary. You know, I I think that a lot of people feel like, oh, I'm I'm messing up my kids or I'm doing this to them. And they're, you know, I they feel so much like guilt and shame around it, even if they know that divorce is the best option for them. And so just taking away some of that guilt and shame and like if you can still show up as their parent, if you can still understand what their behaviors or their um, you know, what they might be saying really mean and help them process through it, you will be stronger as as a family because of it. And that love and that resilience will be there.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Yeah, I I like that you acknowledge that even the um, you know, I fear that I'm messing up my kids. And of course we don't want to traumatize our children. Um, but I think we all mess our kids up a little bit, like thinking that kids are gonna make it through life unscathed or that it's not gonna to some degree be your fault. No. Um, I think that you to Kenzie's point, they're going to be impacted. Your job is to minimize the negative impact on them, to kind of like absorb as much of the shock as you can, to be prepared and and like grounded and steady enough that they can have a moment of like losing it, but mom and dad are still steady. You know, they still um show that they love you. And just a few little tips that I want to give on like the do's and don'ts when it comes to um what to share. The details of infidelity, um, betrayal, abuse, things of that nature um are not necessary to share. It it the details of who wants the divorce, especially if one person, you know, it fought really hard or is not totally on board with it, um, you don't need to share that. Ideally, you know, what you want to convey to the children is this is this is a decision that was not an easy one for us to make. But as the adults, we have to sometimes make those hard decisions in terms of what's gonna be best for us, for you all, for our family unit. Um, that we're always gonna try to prioritize that. You know, again, you're safe, you're loved. Here's what is gonna change, here's what's not gonna change, right? Like, so even bringing their attention to the things that will be the same brings a certain sense of like comfort and normalcy and predictability. That's really, really important. Um, so kind of jumping back to my earlier take, I think you're both right. Um, you both have what what you're saying is important. Um, but I think taking a little bit of your wife's side with the urgency of doing it sooner versus later, but a little bit of your side of like managing what they're able to process, you're gonna find kind of like that happy medium of what's most appropriate for each kid.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Yeah, yeah. I like that too, because it's just such a symbol of like working together, right? It you you will always be working together. You share, you share children together. Um, just because you are getting divorced, you know, there are going to be so many moments that are going to come up in life where you are going to have to learn to communicate and to work together, even though you're no longer in a relationship with each other. So this is a great, great start. Um, the only thing that I will add on, because I really like what you um were saying about, you know, what to share with the kids. I think, again, just to um add on to that a little bit of even hinting at any of those red flag, do not say type things, even hinting at like, um, well, I'll tell you when you're older, or like um, you know, this is like anything that kind of um insinuates that you might hold some information that would turn them against the other parent or anything like that is not appropriate. Additionally, I would say that framing and asking yourself the question of like, am I trying to get my child on my team? Like, am I trying to get them to see my point of view here? Because if that if that answer is ever yes, that's not appropriate to be sharing. Like you have family, you have friends, you can get a therapist or a mentor, some something where you can talk to people about how you're feeling and your emotional experience of this, that is not your kids' job. So if the intent is ever to be like, oh, I want them to see my side, that's not appropriate. It should be my kids are not in service of me. My kids are not in service of meeting my emotional needs in this. I am in service of them. I am team family, I am team emotional safety, and I'm gonna make my choices based on that. And if my choice is ever kind of steered towards the direction of meeting of trying to serve my emotional needs, I need to step back. I need to own that. I need to find my own outlets that aren't my children to meet that need.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

Well said, and I think a great, you know, note to end on because yeah, you you never win by cutting down the other parent, even if in the moment you win. Um, long term, you you can't cut down the other parent without cutting down the child in some way, which you know, I think we talked about. So I do hope this was helpful. Divorce is never easy. Um, please continue to take that say this level of care and intention that you brought to the letter into every conversation um with the kids. And, you know, you all can weather this storm and find yourselves on the other side, still a family unit, but just a different type of family unit, you know. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

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SPEAKER_01 37:31

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SPEAKER_00 37:43

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SPEAKER_02 37:49

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