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Limerence (Ep.23)
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What’s the difference between being open to love… and getting swept up in something that isn’t grounded in reality?
This week, we unpack a listener letter about a friend who falls hard and fast—every time. She calls herself a hopeless romantic, but her pattern raises a deeper question: when does optimism cross into limerence, and how is that connected to anxious attachment?
In this episode, Kenzie & Carli explore why intense early feelings can feel so real, how the brain fills in emotional gaps, and how “seeing the best in people” can sometimes mask a deeper need for reassurance.
We also get into the tricky part: what do you do when you see this pattern in someone you care about? How do you bring it up without sounding judgmental—or pushing them away?
Tune in for a nuanced conversation about love, attachment, and the fine line between hope and overwhelm.
Have a question? Email us at info@askatherapistpod.com, use the link below, or DM us on IG or TikTok at @askatherapist_pod
Find Kenzie at therapy-with-kenzie.com or @therapywithkenzie
Find Carli at Psychology Today Profile or @carlikinglmft
Hello and welcome. I'm Kenzie. And I'm Carly. And this is Ask a Therapist.
SPEAKER_01Each week we explore life's most relatable questions, from relationships and boundaries to burnout and self-worth, all through a therapist lens.
SPEAKER_00We're licensed therapists, but this isn't therapy. It's a place for insight, reflection, and a little humor along the way. Your questions, our insights, ask a therapist.
SPEAKER_01This podcast is intended for entertainment and educational purposes only. The content shared should not be considered a substitute for professional mental health care, diagnosis, or treatment. We strongly encourage listeners to seek help from a licensed mental health professional for any personal or psychological concerns.
SPEAKER_00Any advice or commentary offered is based solely on the information provided. As such, we cannot guarantee any specific outcomes, and the feedback given should not be interpreted as professional mental health advice. If you are experiencing a mental health crisis, please call 911-988 or 211.
SPEAKER_01Hi, everybody. Welcome back to Ask a Therapist. This is episode 23. This week we will be reviewing a letter from a listener who is noticing patterns of limerence in her friend. We dissect what limerence is, how you can navigate this by yourself, or in helping someone else. We want to share a quick reminder that while our questions are specific to listener submissions, the insights and responses we share are meant to be supportive and applicable to anyone who may be listening. We're excited to explore this with you all, so let's get started. Okay, just first checking in, catching up. Um one, Carly, how are you? Two, I feel like we should check in and catch up this week. You have such beautiful artwork behind you. And I know the story about this artwork, but I think that it would be so fun for um our listeners to hear a little bit about this too. Um and for anybody who's listening and can't actually see, Carly has these canvases up behind her. There's like pink and blue and like the prettiest colors and all of these things. And so, Carly, you obviously can share a little bit more, but would love to thank you for asking.
SPEAKER_00I am well today, and my artwork in the background, it's kind of become a bit of a staple. So you will notice that I change it out every so often, you know, not every week or anything. But my daughter is quite the artist. She loves to paint. She's actually had two of her own art shows where she has like sold her artwork. And I mean, honestly, I'm very impressed because I did not have the courage at her age to really create anything and put it out there to be sold. But she, you know, enjoys doing art. Um, it has become somewhat of a passion or something she likes to do for fun. She's done a little bit of training in it, but I think she really just likes like to be free with it and kind of come up with whatever comes to mind. And so these are two pieces that she's come up with. I mean, if you notice any artwork in the background that I've had in the past, it most likely is her artwork as well. And the majority of them, I believe, are for sale. Some of them are mine, and I will not be selling them, but I do believe these two are for sale. So if someone's interested, please let me know. And thank you for asking.
SPEAKER_01No, I love it. I've got two original art pieces myself. I think that it's just like the sweetest, like coolest idea. Can you tell people a little bit about the art shows too? Because like it there, it's just so cool that she does this and that you guys also support her in this. Like, I just think it's such a cool idea for other parents too. So can you share a little bit more?
SPEAKER_00I can. I mean, it was an intentional effort on our part. And I will be honest, I mean, we we only have one child. And so she does get a lot of attention and you know, a lot of focus. But, you know, it was something that she showed interest in. And it was actually the idea of one of my husband's aunts. She has a space, another plug, Hailey Madison Tea Company. She hosts events there, and so she had the idea to like host an event where my daughter could showcase her artwork. And so together we kind of like we worked together to plan for it and did the first one, and it was a big success. And so then the following year it was like, okay, are we doing this again? Um, and we try to teach her a little along the way. And so, like the first one we funded, the second one, she had to like pay to put a decent amount of the event on because we wanted her to learn, like, you know, profit margins and things like that. And so, like, every year we try to up the annie just a little bit, just so that she can, you know, learn a little bit more about the process. But the goal is to invest in her and show her that we care about the things that she's passionate about, but also just to give her the confidence that just like our last episode where we're talking about building up skill sets and different ways to build a career, really it's important to me that she not feel stuck or pigeonholed as if she can only do one thing or only holds value in one space. So as she finds things that she enjoys, like tennis or art or whatever it is, my goal is to, you know, teach her a way to be able to like develop that skill and then be able to use it so that she never has to feel stuck in any particular thing. So that's that's the intention behind it.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, I I love that. I feel like it's just such a cool idea. And something that I was so impressed by when you were when I first heard about this was like the pamphlet that was made and like all of the artwork, and it was kind of like, okay, here's what this is priced, and this is like everything was like categorized, like chronicled. Like it was just it, it's such a cool lesson in like actually putting something together and all the work that goes into it and and how you display it and things like that. So very cool idea and beautiful artwork. And so um, you know, I think that that is just such a cool, such a cool thing. So kudos to your daughter. Very fun.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, um, we have another great episode this week. I'm excited to get into it. Um I will kind of jump into the question. If you're a parent of an athlete, you already know this recruiting process can feel overwhelming. The pressure to make the right decisions, the uncertainty around recruiting, and NIL, and the future, and the fear of getting it wrong. Because today, youth and college sports aren't just about playing anymore. It's a business. And most families are navigating it without a real plan. That's where LIG Sports Groups comes in. We serve as a sports asset and career office for athletes and families, bringing clarity, structure, and experience guidance to every decision. From development and recruiting to NIL and long-term positioning, we help you move with intention, not emotion. So your athlete isn't just chasing opportunities, they're building real leverage and long-term value in an unforgiving sports business. Visit L-I-G Sports. That's L-I-G Sports S-P-O-R-T-S.com to learn more. Okay, Carly. Our question today comes from a listener that says, Hey ladies, writing in for friend. She's a quote-unquote hopeless romantic who falls hard and fast. Every time she meets someone new, she ignores the red flags and jumps all in. This never ends well. While stuck in a TikTok rabbit hole, I came across the concept of limerence, basically being infatuated with someone. And I couldn't help but to think of my friend. I hesitated but decided to share a few posts with her to see if she had a similar reaction and radio silence. The next day, she texted me asking if I think she becomes obsessed when dating. I wasn't sure how to respond, but I ended up telling her that I get worried that she gets her hopes up too quickly and sometimes misses the signs that the relationship might not be the healthiest. She responded that she appreciates my concern, but doesn't see her optimism as a problem. She said she's not naive or in denial. She just chooses to see the best in people and not run away the first time they do or say something she dislikes. She says she refuses to let a few bad dates make her cynical about love. It was awkward for a bit, but we managed to move on. Fast forward a few months and the cycle continues. My friend recently met a guy on vacation and she's already romanticizing the idea of a future with him despite thousands of miles of distance between them. I can't tell if he's equally into her, but she's preoccupied with checking her phone, sacrifices her sleep to talk to him when he's available, and has even toyed with the idea of moving so they can be closer. Now I feel like I'm in the twilight zone. I don't want to upset her by bringing it up again, but everything in me is screaming, limerence. My question is, how do you distinguish between limerence and optimism? And what's the best way to bring this to someone's attention without them feeling judged or getting defensive? Thanks, love the show. Okay, wait, before I kick it to you, Carly, can I just say that at the end they said thanks, love the show. And that was such like a pinch me moment of like, like, that's so sweet. I'm so happy you love the show. Like, we have listeners and people who are tuning in. So thank you. That's so fun to hear. Love that you love it. And we love having you as a listener.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so not to go down a tangent, but I do listen to a lot of podcasts, and there are some that like have listener letters of some sort, and they will sometimes skip like the more positive things, like, hey, love the show, love you guys, whatever. I'm not there yet. So if you say you love us, we're reading it, just letting you know. Maybe if it becomes excessive, then we'll like, you know, back off. But no, I'm with you. It's kind of like, yes, someone, someone likes it. Yes. Thank you. But that being said, this was one that hit me in a way because I feel like as a therapist, this is something that I see a lot. Like just the concept of being able to see a pattern that maybe someone else doesn't see and trying to figure out, okay, how do I approach this topic and not come off judgmental, but like help reflect what I'm seeing. And so to me, the first thought was, well, yeah, it's always easier to see a pattern from the outside looking in than it is when you're the one like sitting in the seat. And it also was very interesting to me. Like, we don't always get a letter about someone else where we get to hear the interaction between the person writing it and the person that it's about. So, you know, we might have made a lot of assumptions about how this friend views it without her perspective being included. But the fact that we got to hear kind of her counter to this frame being offered to her, I think is actually helpful because it gives us a little bit more to work with. So those were my initial thoughts.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I'm I am really excited to kind of like get into this, dig into it a little bit more. Before we start, I do just kind of want to give a little bit of a definition of what is limerence. And so limerence is an intense involuntary emotional state where you become preoccupied with another person based on fantasy more than reality. So that can look like intrusive obsessive thoughts, emotional highs and lows, idealizing them, fantasy-driven interactions or future planning. So that is, you know, just a brief summary of it, but definitely, you know, I've seen it going around on TikTok and things like that. And so um I think it's something that people are starting, are having a conversation around.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I appreciate the definition. I was not familiar with this term until a client actually brought it to my attention, which made me then go like look into it a little bit more. Because, you know, when and and I think the listener even says this, like basically being infatuated. I think that's what I would have referred to it as is like the infatuation stage when you meet someone new and you're just like so smitten by them and so excited about the future, and they can almost do no wrong, see a little something that you don't like. It's like that's not a big deal. We can work through it. But you know, you're just really maybe green about the idea of the relationship and what it could be. But I mean, to the point of the definition, it's not necessarily based in the reality of what is, it's more of the what if and the fantasy of how it could play out. And it does sometimes make the person a little blind to the reality of what is happening.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So there's like this preoccupation, almost like obsession with the relationship. Sometimes there's like reading into things more than, you know, than is displayed in like the words, like you might read a message and it's like, oh, can't you see? They're like so into me. And that's like they just said good morning. Yeah. But they were thinking of me when they first woke up. You know, it's like start to kind of build your own narrative around what this means, which isn't always based in reality.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, something that I'm struggling I struggled with a little bit in this letter is like there's clearly two different perspectives or like realities of what of what is happening going on here, where the friend is kind of like, I don't think it's a bad thing to be optimistic. Like, I'm just I'm excited about these relationships. And the friend is kind of like, well, I'm not just seeing optimism, I'm seeing like full like getting ahead of yourself, like kind of sacrificing sleep and being like, I'm gonna move there after just starting talking to somebody. So it there's two different perspectives of reality of what's happening here. And I, you know, they touched on like what is the difference between limerence and optimism. Optimism is like you're excited, but you know, you can still sleep or focus or maintain certain areas of your life without intrusive or obsessive thoughts about the person. You know, you can notice positives and also like potential questions about a person, like you can have room for both, and your feelings kind of grow along with experiences that happen. And limerence is a little bit more of intrusive or uncontrollable thoughts, um, prioritizing that person over your sleep, over routines, over your well-being, over other relationships that you have, kind of creating a relationship in your mind that doesn't exactly match what is actually happening in reality. Yeah, there's some more that kind of goes along with that. But what were your thoughts around the difference between optimism and limerence?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it's a great question because the same behaviors can be labeled as both, but I think it's like we have to kind of break down a little bit of what's happening. First, in terms of why your attempt didn't land, it sounds like the friend took it as like your way of being in relationships or your way of loving and being open to love is a problem. And I, you know, to the distinctions that you're making between optimism and limerence, I don't think optimism is the problem. Being open-minded to the possibility that things can work out well, being hopeful about that is not a problem. But it sounds like part of what's happening is that optimism is being used almost as a coping strategy to deal with the anxiety of the uncertainty of the relationship. And that is where it kind of like starts to turn a little bit. Now, from like a therapeutic standpoint, like I didn't learn anything about limerence in school, but it does remind me a lot of anxious attachment. Um, and I know that we have an episode from like probably way back season one that was about avoidant attachment. And we kind of broke down like the different attachment styles and how they're developed. So I would strongly encourage you, go back and listen to that one if you can. Um, because I'm not gonna go into too much depth. But one of the things about anxious attachment is this fear and anxiety that comes up whenever there's distance or whenever there's uncertainty or whenever it feels like maybe there's gonna be a disruption and connection. And people with an anxious attachment style have a reaction to that. And the reaction is typically to pull closer, to, you know, like kind of lean in and try to prevent that break or that disruption. And so when I look at it through my therapy lens, that is what I see is that the excitement about the future and all of that is almost being used as a way to fill in the gaps. And when you meet someone new, there are gaps. You don't know them yet, right? So, like that uncertainty is inevitable. It comes with meeting new people and being open to the idea of being partnered with someone new. But when you try to calm that anxiety by filling in blanks that don't exist or that aren't based in reality, now we've gone beyond optimism and it's more of a coping strategy and probably leaning toward limerence.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And I I love to add on to that too, just because the idea of a need being met. So some sometimes what we see in people with limerence is they create a really vivid internal relationship or like intense emotional connection. And that can look like imagining daily life with somebody, like feeling comforted by them. And in that moment, it can feel really soothing, but but it is meeting a relational need. When you start like when limerence comes up for somebody, it can feel really nice. It can feel really like, oh, like this daydreaming or this idea of this person feels like it's offering me some companionship, some control, even a way to experience love without the risk of rejection, but it also like it often creates a pattern of hurt and disappointment. Some people who experience limerence, it's not even with like somebody that they might be talking to or somebody that they might be dating. It might be with some like an idea of a person, like, oh, I really feel like this person could be this like wonderful companion for me. And they start to build it up in their mind. And and the thing about our brains is we have a really hard time distinguishing between like this imagined reality, this thing. Like we have a strong emotional connection to our thoughts and our feelings, even if that actual reality hasn't happened. So the envisioning of what a life could look like with somebody, or spending a Sunday afternoon like on the couch with them, like that that comes with a strong emotional connection that the reality of it actually isn't there and you have to come face to face with it. It feels like an intense hurt because the emotion connected to that idea was so strong. And so that's where kind of the like highs and lows of the experience of limerence comes in. When something doesn't work out, you're grieving all of that anticipation, all of those things that you felt like could have been in a really real way. And so, you know, that that is just something to keep in mind too. Like if you if you're unsure, like, am I just optimistic or is this limerence? Like, if you feel the weight of the disappointment, it's gonna feel really strong. It's gonna feel really heavy. And you're gonna start to question like, why do I keep getting into these patterns of feeling like on cloud nine and then like absolutely devastated when maybe we were just in these talking phases or maybe I didn't even really know this person? But that's a little bit of a dis distinction as well.
SPEAKER_00100%. That concept of being of almost like falling in love with the idea of what could be is just one of the key signs of limerence. And it's of course you want to envision things going well. Like I can imagine someone saying, like, well, how else do you like manifest something positive if you can't see anything positive happening? Right. But there's it's like there's these extremes. Like if you can imagine something positive happening, okay, great, maybe that's optimism. But then if you start seeing signs that maybe this person is not who you've idealized them to be, are you willing to massage that truth into your vision of the future, or is there almost like a rejection of that because it doesn't align with what you see or how you want to view them? And so you almost ignore the things that might tell you maybe this isn't that, or maybe this isn't that yet, right? Because like sometimes it could potentially get there. But if you're already at the step of imagining you all raising children together and living together and all these things, and it's like week two or three, you've skipped a few steps in the process. And the hard part or the unfortunate part about that is relationships, because none none of them are perfect, they can grow into something beautiful. And sometimes you have to go through some challenging like stages in order to get there. And so you might actually miss an opportunity for it to be something that would be worthwhile because you're like putting so much weight on it in the beginning. And then when it's not that, it's like this huge drop-off. And I'm just thinking about everything that gets missed in the middle there, right? And when I hear the listener talking about their friend, that's part of what I heard is like, well, I'm just being optimistic and I'm not, I'm not in denial, I'm not naive, I'm just not cynical. And like there's so much in between being in denial and being cynical, right? And so it like it almost sounds like the friend is equating any sort of challenge to her vision for the future as like negativity and cynicism and pessimism. And those extremes are not exactly fair or accurate. There's a whole lot in the middle to be explored. So you don't have to just be positive and hopeful and optimistic, or you're cynical, you're pessimistic, and you never believe in anything positive. There's some middle ground that we're missing there. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I think that what's really challenging for people who experience limerence is it is one, it's meeting a relational need. It feels really great in the moment, right? It feels really exciting, it feels really hopeful. So this listener's friend kind of being like, I'm just being optimistic. Like this is just, you know, I get excited and I don't want to, like, it, it is really hard to let go of something that feels very exciting, that feels very hopeful, especially when you have this perspective of kind of like, well, this is a good thing that I feel this way. Um, it's not hurting anybody a lot of times. It's often just kind of like in your mind. It's something that you're daydreaming about and going through. Um, and so it is something difficult to let go of. But I think that again, like it, it's a difficult pattern where there's, you know, you feel the intensity of the loss. You also might start to feel to your point, Carly, like you might might start to feel very anxious where you're like, oh, I want to bring this person up all the time, or I want to talk about this person all the time. Like it might start to feel like it's a little bit more outside of your control. And so you have to be really honest with yourself about it. Some things that I wrote down for for somebody that is experiencing limerence, like there are some steps that you can take to be able to acknowledge it and to be able to have a different experience of it. One, like noticing it. When does it happen? How do you usually feel? Like what are you usually drawn to in this fantasy? Like just noticing. So when you start to notice that you're fantasizing about somebody, thinking about somebody, like when is it happening? Name what it's giving you. It's giving you um a feeling of happiness. It's giving you a feeling of companionship, it's giving you a feeling of um not feeling so alone in that moment. Um, three, trying to gradually interrupt, like, don't try to eliminate it right away. That probably won't work. But like, can you bring yourself back to reality a little bit sooner? Can you interrupt that fantasy a little bit quicker? And then the fourth is probably the most important. Like it's replacing it's in some ways, it's a band-aid for what is missing. And so it's replacing actual potential relationship and connection. So, are there ways that you can strengthen your regulation and connection in real life with friends or with family or with people in your life so that there's less of a almost like desire to like, oh, let me just go to this safe place in my thoughts or in this fantasy. And I think that those are some ways that you can kind of like start to work towards having a different experience where it doesn't feel like limerence is like controlling you as much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that I mean, to you, what I'm hearing in that, or a little bit of what I'm hearing, is like you, it's hard to judge just based on your intention. Like if she's only if the friend is only looking at what her intention is, which is to be optimistic and positive, you might miss the fact that there's a problematic piece here. But when you start to look at some of the behaviors and and start to really assess like how does this make me feel, like, well, yeah, I am kind of preoccupied and I am sacrificing my sleep. Like some of the behaviors are often going to point toward a distinction. Yeah. I want us to take a moment though and and respond also to the question about like how do you bring this up without someone becoming defensive? Because I think that really is, you know, it's a hard thing when you when you can see it happening and you want the best for your friend, but you like they're not they're not necessarily open to it or buying your frame. And so I do think shifting the focus from like labeling, sending the the posts that talk about limerence might have felt a little bit like a judgment or a label. And so if you can focus a little bit more about the impact that it's having on your friend, then they might be a little more open to that. You know, things like, well, it as opposed to referring to them as obsessed or infatuated or being in a state of limerence, saying things like, you know, I noticed that these situations really seem to cause you, you know, some some anxiety, or I noticed that this is taking up a lot of your time. Just observing some of those things can sometimes like open the door to maybe the person thinking differently about what they're doing and how it's actually serving them. So, how do you actually feel after you talk to him? Or things that um kind of expand their perspective of how they might view what they're doing. I also think um questions that like help to lead toward self-awareness. And so, like, do you feel like you're getting to know him or or just the idea of him? Just being curious with the person so that they can reflect on, well, actually, like he doesn't really talk a lot about himself, but that's okay. I just fill in the blanks and I talk about myself. Like, well, it may be hard to notice that if if no one's asking the question. So I think like being gentle in your approach, this is a huge thing in therapy. Like sometimes we can see stuff right away. I don't know if you've experienced this, Kenzie, but some patterns I notice within the first few sessions. But if you don't take the time to like understand the other person's perspective on it, then they just feel judged. They feel like you're you're writing them off and you're kind of reading them without knowing the whole story. And so there can be some pushback, even if what you're saying is accurate. And I know this from the other side too. I'm sure my therapist clocked some things about me session one or two, but like I needed time to get there. So I don't, you know, you're not unique in that. Like I think that's a common thing. But like kind of slowing down a little bit, expressing your care and concern for the friend, noticing the impact and asking questions that help to, you know, bring out a little more self-awareness, I think are better ways to approach it.
SPEAKER_01Yes, I think that you are spot on with that. Like you said earlier in the episode, it's so much easier for us to notice patterns in other people. And so instead of saying, like, hey, you're doing this or like sending, you know, I think that the sending of the TikToks came from a good place and it probably was like, well, I don't really know how to like bring this up to this person. Let me just send it and like see how they respond to it. But I can see how they would have felt embarrassed or there would have been some sense of defensiveness around it. And so to your point, instead of trying to label, just trying to reflect back to them what you're seeing in a gentle and kind way of like, like, I love how excited you are. Um, you know, like, do you feel like this is adding to your piece? Do you feel like it's taking away from it? Or hey, I'm noticing that you are like not hanging out with us so that you can FaceTime this person, or you're like not getting a lot of sleep because you're so excited to talk to this person. You know, does this feel like do you feel comfortable with this? So I I liked your questions and how you framed them of reflecting the behaviors and not like telling the person what they're doing, but essentially helping them see their patterns and how it might not be just optimism or excitement. It might be something a little bit more that doesn't match the level of where the relationship is at at this point.
SPEAKER_00Yep. You can always invite someone to be aware, but ultimately people do have to recognize patterns for themselves in order to really have change happen. And so, you know, the goal is not necessarily to convince the friend to adopt your frame. The goal is to get the friend to at least look at their own frame and be willing to challenge it a little bit. And maybe they land somewhere close to how you're seeing it, maybe they don't, but like that's the goal is the self-reflection and the ability to like encourage them to look at this pattern differently. And truly that can expand your friend's definition of optimism. Because maybe optimism is being hopeful that regardless of how things go, you're gonna be okay, you're always gonna have love in your life, you're gonna be positive. Like that's a form of optimism as well. And so even if you can just get the friend to expand their definition of what optimism could look like, that's a step in that direction, right? So you don't have to fix it for them. And it's not your responsibility to make them change, but you can in a gentle way encourage them to self-reflect and maybe open their awareness just a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I love it. I, you know, I hope that this was helpful. I think it's a really good topic and would love to hear other people's thoughts on this as well.
SPEAKER_00Yes, for sure. If you'd like to hear our thoughts on a topic that matters to you, email your question to info at ask a therapistpod.com. We'd also like to hear your thoughts on today's topic. What resonated, what didn't, and what did we miss? If you have advice for our listener, please share it. You may just hear your feedback on a future episode. Follow us on Instagram and TikTok at ask a therapist underscore pod. Emails and DMs are always welcome. Also, if you'd like to connect with me or Kinsey and learn more about the services we offer in our private practices, check the show notes for ways to reach us directly. With that, we're signing off. Thanks for listening. And remember, don't wing it, just ask a therapist.
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