Episode 33: Diastasis Recti - What's Really Going On With Your Abs After Baby

Dr. Rebecca had two nine-pound babies 18 months apart, and was told by a pelvic floor PT a few years back that her diastasis recti was pretty much just going to be that way. Dr. Alex respectfully disagrees (yes, even though the “babies” are now 10 and 11).

In this episode, Dr. Alex and Dr. Rebecca dig into what diastasis recti is (and isn’t), why so much of the advice floating around online makes people afraid to move altogether, and what pelvic floor PT can do for the symptoms you've been managing on your own since your last kid was born…even if that was many years ago.

If you feel your core doesn't work or look the way it used to, or worry you missed the window to do anything about it, this one's for you.

What you'll learn:

• The link between diastasis recti, posture, and lower back pain (Dr. Rebecca originally came to PT for the latter)
• The size of your ab separation doesn’t tell the whole story
• Sucking in your stomach is not the same thing as activating your core
• Your core functions differently standing than lying down, and what that means for how you train it

Tune in if you've ever thought:

• "Every fitness influencer says something different and I don't know who to listen to."
• "My belly still looks like I'm pregnant and I don't understand why."
• "I was told not to do crunches or planks and now I'm afraid to do anything."
• "I can work out, but I don't feel “connected” to my core."
• "My kids are older now - is it even worth trying to fix things at this point?"

Helpful resources

• Find a pelvic floor PT near you: pelvicrehab.com or Pelvic Global Directory
• The Postpartum Essentials Virtual Course: Heal from Your Pelvic Floor to Your Core
• Parents in Love: A Guide to Great Sex After Kids by Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy

Connect with us:

Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy
 Website: rebeccaeudy.com
Instagram: @rebeccahowardeudy
Newsletter: Parents in Love Substack

Dr. Alexandra DiGrado
 Website: bostonpelvicpt.com
Instagram: @bostonpelvicpt
Newsletter: Under the Hood

Under the Hood Podcast
 Instagram: @underthehooddocs
Website: underthehoodpod.com

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Welcome to Under the Hood. I'm Dr. Alex DeGrotto, your pelvic floor physical therapist. And I'm Dr. Rebecca Howard Uti, your sex and relationship therapist. Good morning, Alex. Hi, how are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm doing great. So I love to request topics of you. I think like every time anybody asks me about this podcast, what I say, which I think sounds like a like, I don't know that people always know that it's as genuine as it is, but what I always say is I'm learning so much. I say the same thing. Do you?

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Yes. Yeah. I'm like, oh, Paul can thank Rebecca for improving our relationship every episode.

SPEAKER_03 0:45

Well, it's true. I learned so much. And so this topic that I want to talk about today is diastasis rectide. Which is something that I'm personally interested in. My kids are 10 and 11 now, but they're close together. You know, they were 18 months apart. They were big babies. Like they're both nine pounds. Wow. And I definitely struggled with this as I understand it, the the separation of your abs that doesn't it is natural, it has to happen. But then after postpartum having trouble knitting back together.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

So let's talk about it. So I saw a pelvic floor physical therapist for this at one point and was told, like, ah, it's just gonna be that way. And then I that was sort of the end of my got it pelvic floor PT journey. So I am very curious about what this actually is. Yep. I've heard different definitions. I've heard different I mean, I was told, yeah, it's been a couple years, you can't really do anything about it. It's just how it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

All right. Let's dive in. So so diastasis recti or diastasis recti, I've also heard people say diastasis recti. Who knows what the, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

Yeah, potato potato.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yeah, I was gonna say perennium, perineum, but yes. So it's much more cool. It's just on brand for our podcast. So tomato tomato. Yeah, the the so the so there's something called the linea alba, and the linea alba is the connective tissue that joins your rectus abdominis, which is your six-pack muscles, together in the middle.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

And so this line. That's the line. Yep. The well-defined line. Yes, exactly. This line or somewhat less one. Yes, gets sort of soft and stretchy and starts to expand as our baby grows. And we need this to happen because our baby needs space to grow inside of us. And so I think there's a lot of fear-mongering, especially with social media and people trying to sell programs where they're saying, oh my gosh, you're conning and doming and and tenting and all these words. And and it makes people terrified of something that is truly natural. Correct. Okay. And so, yes, it's true that you can absolutely be overdoing it and really not supporting the expansion and the growth. And also when people use it as a party trick and they're purposely making it happen over and over again, not great. And we do typically have people modify the way that they're kind of getting in and out of bed or whatever to minimize the pressure there.

SPEAKER_03 3:11

So the coning, doming, tenting, whatever is the thing that happens where it kind of like sounds a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Okay, yeah. And so so during pregnancy, even when I first started as a PT, we were really still quite up in arms about this and saying, you know, books out.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. That's okay. Sorry, I'm going back to this.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

No, it's I thought it was totally that is what people would use to describe it. Yeah. Okay. And so the new sort of information or the nuance there is that yes, your belly has to expand and grow. So this is gonna happen. And it's not a death sentence. You know, just because you're you're noticing some during pregnancy doesn't mean you're gonna have some massive separation afterwards. There's a lot of contributing factors. And as I'm not a major researcher myself, I, you know, the ones that come to mind are genetics and, you know, there's some others. But the big thing postpartum is that we used to just measure the finger widths, seeing how far apart, but that wasn't a super accurate measurement. And it also wasn't really indicative of or predictive of somebody's debility. So you could have kind of a large separation and still be functioning really well. And then other people, you know, maybe a fairly small one, but not functioning at all. And we used to attribute a lot of back pain to it. And now, you know, there's really just only moderate research that supports some of the stuff that we used to associate with diastasis recti. The big things that we do in pelvic floor physical therapy currently are we look at the person's pressure management, and I'm gonna explain what that is. We look at their deep core, which is the transverse abdominus, so it's not even the six-pack muscles, it's the deepest layer. And then we look at your thoracic mobility and your, you know, because a lot of times we're we're kind of like very afraid to move the wrong way during pregnancy. Like, you know, don't lay on your back, don't twist, don't do any exercises with twisting. I mean, that's not like a realistic way to live life. No, but we end up kind of stiff and we're holding our babies a lot. So we develop this posture. God forbid you should like stiff or something.

SPEAKER_03 5:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

And so we work a lot in pelvic floor PT on restoring mobility because if you think about your back being super, super stiff, you know, that's actually impacting the front. And the deep core, the transverse abdominus, wraps all the way around to your spine. And so we actually look at the multifidae, we look at that transverse abdominus, we look at your pelvic floor and your diaphragm. That's what creates that entire canister. So I think historically we used to be kind of obsessed with safe core exercises, like no crunches, no V-ups, no planks, God forbid. But then current literature isn't really supporting that anymore.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

What it's really supporting is learning how to breathe and connect with your deep core and doing exercises that actually strengthen you and provide mobility where you need it, you know, because we can get really stiff and tight, and that impacts our ability to heal as well.

SPEAKER_03 6:11

And then So you're saying I should be breathing during my core exercise.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Definitely, yes. And so it's hard to do.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

And it's probably learning.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Yes, you have a ways to go.

SPEAKER_03 6:21

Yeah, I think when I'm cued to do it, I'll do it. But it is not instinctive to want to breathe while you're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

I know, totally. Yes, so true.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

Feels more natural to hold your breath. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Yeah. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And then I think a lot of people also mistaken an umbilical hernia for diastasis recti, but a hernia is different from what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

So that will like in your belly button.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yeah, and it will kind of like pop out when you cough or laugh or strain, you know. And so there you can measure diastasis with ultrasound, you can measure it with calipers, you can do the finger width and depth. So we look at the depth and see kind of how deep is this going to kind of tell if that deeper core is able to engage. And sometimes we'll say, now we we try to do the transverse abdominus engagement that we taught you, and the, you know, you kind of like push my finger out and the whole thing closes, and you're like, okay, actually you can you can sort of restore, restore this, but we're not as focused on closing the gap, closing the gap, like, you know, 15 years ago. That was sort of the notion was we gotta close the gap. And that's really fallen out of favor with PTs at this point.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

It doesn't matter so much.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

As function and form and and quality of life and and and true strength, you know, because you actually can have great strength and mobility and still have a little bit there, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

Yeah. So that's one of the things that actually brought me to a PT to see about trying to fix this, what you mentioned with I was having more back pain, like lower back pain. Yep. And so that's sort of what brought me in.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah. And a lot of times, if you think about the phase of life that people are in when this is happening, is that they're sitting for hours on end trying to like contort themselves to feed their baby and in this like hunched posture. Then groom growing up. Yeah, and they're recovering from this massive physical change, hip height, hip height, yeah, exactly. So yeah, and then sometimes people have pregnancies close together. So they're, you know, during the period that you may be pumping or breastfeeding, your estrogen levels are decreased. And so you're not really getting that tissue healing and that elasticity that you have when your estrogen levels are back up. And so then we maybe finish nursing or pumping and then jump right into another pregnancy. So it's it's just one of those times in life where our core gets a lot of kind of a beating and doesn't necessarily get a ton of rehab. And I do feel that when I look at social media, I sometimes feel frustrated by the conversation around diastasis recti because I feel like, you know, it makes people afraid to move and it makes people really afraid to resume exercise.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

And so the idea is that if they do it wrong, it might be or the wrong exercise.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

And I don't think there really is a wrong exercise. It may be more so about you knowing how to modify an exercise and also knowing when to progress. So, of course, tissue change muscles grow when the challenge is enough for them to grow. And then they get injured when the challenge is more than what they can handle. Right. So it's a little bit nuanced. It's like, you know, somebody might be listening hoping, oh, Alex will just tell me to do marches and bent knee fallouts and heel slides. But that's not really how it works. You have to look at a person's individual body and see what they are capable of now, what are their breathing mechanics like, what is their rotation and flexibility look like, and how is their pelvic floor supporting them? Is their diaphragm still stuck up under their rib cage, which it oftentimes gets that way after you're pregnant, you know, because your baby sort of takes up all that space and then your breathing muscle, which is your diaphragm, sort of gets pushed out of the way. So a lot of what we do is actually get under there and help it mobilize and bring it back down, and then suddenly you can like actually get to the end of your exhale again. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

This is so interesting because, you know, even though I had the PT who, you know, said, Oh, I don't think there's anything we can do about this. And maybe there wasn't. I mean, maybe it was mild enough. Maybe what she was saying is, Your core looks great already. Your core looks great already. She didn't say that, but that may be what was going on. But I had this really wonderful bar instructor. And I went to her class, it was like a baby bar class. Yeah. I started going then. Jessica Diaz, she's a local in our community, is amazing. And one of the things that she was so particular about, well, form, first of all. She was constantly coming around correcting form, which I loved, you know. Yeah, so you know you're doing it right here. You know you're doing it right. Really about breath. Yeah, breathing. And then the other thing was is that she did not, she wanted you to do the form right. And so she had me, when I started coming back to this, I was doing a lot of trying to do the core at the highest level. Yes, no, no, no. Right at the highest progression. And she had me in a lot of, you know, in bar and Pilates, you do a lot of the like hollow holes and stuff like that. But you know I don't like. I know you don't like, but she had me hold on. Yeah, yeah, good. For years. It felt like years because I couldn't actually feel my abs at all. Yeah. I don't think I think I was. You weren't connecting with your deep. I wasn't, yeah. No, and it wasn't until I started reconnecting with the deep core that I actually was like, oh, this feels like it's doing something.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yeah, right. You know? Totally. And sometimes I think we do scale it way back just to get the mechanics right, you know. So people will say, wow, this like, you know, this looked so easy, but when I did it, it wasn't easy at all. And it's like, yeah, because we actually scaled it to the point where you are connecting with that transverse abdominus, we're getting those obliques, understanding what each muscle's role is in the process, doing some of the deep multifidae in the back and all that. And then what we really want to look at is how it all works together, you know, because if we're, for example, I would say somebody that maybe isn't in a class or with a therapist is just crunching, crunching, crunching at home, that one motion is is one of many that the core actually does, you know. And then unfortunately, when they're saying, you know, don't twist, don't do any, I feel like we actually do a disservice to people. Yeah, that we do such a disservice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we really want to regain their postural muscles too. And so I I do feel that in a quote unquote, I was gonna say good, but I think I'll just say thorough instead. We we look at the whole canister as a unit and how is it all working together? And so sometimes people are shocked when we have them get off the table and do a standing pelvic floor assessment because it's kind of as awkward as it sounds. We're literally having them stand there with our, you know, internally assessing and um with consent, of course. But yeah, and so you're like squatting down next to them. Yeah, literally. And and but it can be completely different when you get off the table, you know? And so, yeah, so so so if you're only doing core laying on your back, that's not really where your core functions. So we do a lot of standing core exercises, you know. We'll we'll have the bands, we'll have all that. So I do feel that certainly diastasis recti is a very controversial topic in physical therapy. Part of that is because the research is is mixed and some of it is in good quality. And I think also we're trying to be excellent. We're trying to be at the forefront of rehab in general, and we kind of need to bust the myths, you know, but without good qualitative research and quantitative research, it's hard to say.

SPEAKER_03 13:58

You know, yeah. It's hard to say this is the thing that really works well. Yeah, exactly. Have that good research to back it up. Other than that, it's just sort of opinion.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Yeah. And I think the the bottom line is that conservative management with an exercise program that focuses on mobility, breathing, the whole canister, looking at the different muscles, especially the deep core, is reasonable to say that that is helpful and works. And then I think we also have to recognize that we don't work in silos, we have a team. So having people, you know, go and and see meet with a hernia specialist and see kind of, you know, is this relevant? Do I need to do anything about it or not? And so we belong to several different groups. Pelvic Global is one of them, and they'll have a hernia surgeon come in and talk to us, you know. So I think our field is trying to become less siloed and trying to work within the medical community and having maybe somebody that does abdominal plasty come in and discuss what that looks like and you know, what can you actually do in terms of core rehab after that surgery takes place and all that. So I feel that we are trying to do a good job to realize that we're not the end-all be-all and also be as comprehensive as we can be. But this is one of those topics that gets people pretty heated.

SPEAKER_03 15:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. That feels like real, like nerdy. Nerdy, yeah, because there's there's nuance to it. It's nuance. But I don't know that the general public would be at all in tune with that nuance.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

No, and then unfortunately, they just listen to the TikTok influencer that's like, don't do any Russian twists. And it's like, you know what, you're not wrong. If you're six weeks postpartum postpartum, you probably have no business doing planks and Russian twists. But how can we get you there? You know, it's not like never do them for as long as you live. It's let's start where you are. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

So I'm imagining someone who maybe is six weeks postpartum and their baby's napping. Yep. And they want to do something. They want to do something, maybe they don't have, you know, they're they're feeling okay. They don't feel like they need to come to a PT. Yeah. They wanna, they don't, they don't want to do anything wrong. They want to do something.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Yeah, I'll tell you what I did. And I think and I think I started it before six weeks, so for what it's worth. But I would put my fingers right in the hip crease, deep in that hip crease. Like so if your belly buttons in the middle, your fingertips are kind of and then go ahead and just dig them in there and turn on that muscle under your hips. I'm gonna find it for you. Like right there. Oh, yeah. You feel that? Yeah, I feel like that's it. So do like if you're if you're listening, do a little cough or a huff and you feel coughing. No, no, not in the into the mic. And you there you go. Did you feel how you just laughed and you felt it? I did. Okay. When you laugh and you that's your transverse abdominus, it pushes out, it becomes firm. Yeah. The mistake that a lot of people make is sucking in. When you suck in, nothing happens. Yes. When you're sucking in, there's no core activation. Okay, so you can. You're just sucking in. And the worst part about it is a lot of people breathe in and then suck in. Yeah. What the hell is that? That is nothing. That is ridiculous. You know, that and then that's why and that's why the cues of like, oh, suck in, like you're putting on tight jeans. No. Because feel this is actually this is broadening. This is this is thickening. Yes. So you're activating puffs out. Yes. Yes. Okay. So it's kind of like the opposite, you know? And so what I would do is I would do a big deep breath in, and then I would exhale and activate that muscle. I'm trying not to do like a long exhale on the mic, but so and you would and then you would hold it for the full exhale and then you would let it go. And your pelvic floor naturally engages with that as well. So you're sort of healing your pelvic floor with this whole process because the transverse abdominis works with the pelvic floor. Okay. And then once I was comfortable with that, I would add a little movement of my legs, you know, I would add a long lever.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

So what that means is you standing, no, laying down.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

And so once you sort of get that sensation that yes, you are activating. We're talking really early postpartum now. So that's why I'm not doing some of the more complex. But it's like, can I lift and lower one leg without my pelvis bobbling from side to side? Can I engage that core and lift the other side? Can I bring one knee out to the side and bring it back in without the opposite pelvis lifting? Can I slowly slide a heel down and back up without my back arching? And meanwhile, we have a natural lumbar lordosis, which is like a curve in our back. It's supposed to be there. So I'm not asking people to press their back flat against the floor as hard as they can.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

How many times have I heard that?

SPEAKER_01 18:29

I know.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

You know what? This is changing though, where people maybe it's just like keep your natural curve, yeah. But they're like, your back is supposed to have a natural curve. It's okay. That press your back again.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

It used to be everywhere. It used to be everywhere. And sometimes still is. And so that's okay for your back to have a little curve. That just a small curve. Correct. And then, but if you feel like it's getting more as you're doing the exercise, take your leg a little less far, you know? And so meanwhile, your heel is still on the ground. You're sliding your heel along the ground. And so then as we progress, and of course, we get into a more gravity-dependent position, like on hands and knees. Can you pull and engage properly with gravity kind of pulling you down? And then we get into an upright position. Absolutely. So this is But it's all about this transverse abdominals.

SPEAKER_03 19:18

And a really good way to find that is to feel it's it's right underneath your hip, sort of like in the side of your pelvis of the hip crease, and you can cough or laugh. I mean, I felt it immediately.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

Yeah, and I've had patients who need to kind of hoff at the beginning of every exercise just to get it to turn on because your brain, because these muscles stretch out so much, your brain and your muscles disconnect. They kind of they lose that. Sometimes I'd say it's more like we're just getting these muscles back online. Yeah. You think about the pelvic floor, it stretches 250 times its normal length in vaginal delivery. It's amazing. And so you really have to just get it back online. You know, it's so stretched out. We're trying to, we're trying to engage. And then, of course, you know, there's nuance in everything. There's plenty of people who the muscles are like, what just happened to me? And they spasm and get really tight, too. So if it's super grippy, we might do manual therapy to release and we might just do the breathing to expand it. So I think it's hard to oversimplify these topics, but I would be safe and comfortable to say that what I just expressed is a reasonable thing to do early postpartum. Yeah. And then thread the needle. Sorry to interrupt you, but like just okay. I would never be doing core stuff without also focusing on my restoring my mobility. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

That's important too.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

So like on hands and knees, you open up to the side, get your pecs, and then you thread under, and then you kind of take a couple breaths into your back. Because breathing into your back is a really nice way to get it to, you know, it also moves really good. It feels really good and get it to move again. Yeah. I'm sorry, what were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_03 20:52

I was just gonna say that for folks who are listening as opposed to watching this, one of the things that you may have missed the little nuance was that as you were talking about the exercise, you were really modeling the breathing. Yes, really slow that you're actually breathing the whole time. So actually, this is just as important to tend to your nervous system as you're tending to your abs. Like we want to be like, let's do some abs, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

And there's just that flat belly, which I know you hate. I do, yeah. And there, like, there's this kind of like bucket handle thing sometimes, like to try and take a deep breath.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Our at our rib cage when it flares up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

And really, I want to think about 360-degree breathing. So thinking about breathing into your lateral ribs, like out on the side and breathing into your back, and not just kind of like, you know, expanding that way.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

So we we hold the sides and we in a way that that is gonna feel one of the things I think that people often think of when they're doing this kind of lateral breathing, is it very it's similar to belly breathing. Yes, and breathing into your belly, you're also expanding. Expanding your ribs.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yes, exactly. Because I think when people are just breathing into their belly, they sort of end up.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Yeah, moving their chests a little bit more. So you're really thinking not just the front of your belly.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

It's like 360 degrees, yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:12

Yeah. And it flares out your bottom ribs.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Right. And so and then also then you knit them back together, you know, which a lot of us with that postpartum rib flare, we kind of round our shoulders to try and whatever. But I will say that I'm sure there will be a listener out there. There's a lot of upper ab grippers. So if you're noticing that you're gripping your upper abs and pooching out the lower belly, that is a time where I would actually really encourage you to get in between your ribs and massage and relax that area and and and maybe focus all the more on the lateral and the back expansion. Because I do find that people will be like, oh, it just still looks like I'm pregnant. And what they're doing is they're gripping their upper abs and pooching out the bottom. You know? So that can that can be a troublesome pro problem as well.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Yeah, because those lower abs are hard.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

And that's the transverse abdominis. Yeah. And so if you're like thinking about that nice long posture and you're engaging the in the lower area, that's probably a way to get out of that upper ab gripping.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

Yeah. Okay, so one last question for you. Sure. Which is that, you know, a lot of the people that I work with, I hear pretty often, you know, I do work with people who are directly postpartum, but I a lot of times people come for their relationship. Yeah. Because their kids are a little bit older. Older. Yeah, when they have time to breathe and think about each other again. Yeah. Exactly. And so one of the things that I hear a lot is now that my kids are a little bit older, I wanna, you know, I've got some, I've got some stuff that I need to take care of. Yeah. Take care of. Yeah, exactly. And and I think that some of that is just general phys physical fitness. But some of it is PT related. Yes. Pelvic floor PT, ab stuff that sort of, you know, people don't have the time immediately postpartum. A lot of people don't have the time.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Especially because there's no routine, really. You know, people try and make a routine and some babies do, but not a lot.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

It's hard. It's really hard. And then life gets busy. Yep. And so if you're not someone who has sought out these services, you know, so sometimes if people have a traumatic birth or they're experiencing a lot of pain, they will come to I think a lot of people would really benefit. I mean, wouldn't it be nice if this was just part of it?

SPEAKER_01 24:21

As it is in other countries. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

But be that as it may, imagine somebody whose kids are, you know, three years old, five years old, 10 years old. Is it too late? I mean, that the advice that I was given, oh, it's it's I summarily disagree with the advice that you received.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Summarily.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Tell me why.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Because muscles can change at every age and stage. You know, I have had patients that are 85, 80, 100 years old. I mean, my oldest patient was a hundred years old. And I I I write about a theoretical patient in my book, but the person that I think of when I write about that story, I mean, this woman was having more sex than me in her 80s. I mean, coming in the kitten heels and yeah, she was living life on Rivera Beach, you know? Yeah. And I just feel like we pigeonhole and and think that it's too late. It's never too late. Of course. Think about any other muscle in your body.

SPEAKER_03 25:17

Agreed. Yeah, 100%. I mean, it felt I was kind of like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

If we're talking about cosmetic stuff, I mean, maybe like, yeah, is it the skin? Is the yeah, you're just gonna have loose skin. Yeah, yeah. Like sure.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

But that's not that's yeah, and also some babies and yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

You know, my sure my skin and my, you know, isn't it's it's looser than it was before kids, and I'm not gonna change that. And I and I'm not worried about that in the slightest. But the core underneath it is malleable because it's a muscle, and muscles respond to the load that it that's put on it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

Okay, so it's not too late. Certainly not. Not too late. And I I think that the thing one of the things that I like to say to myself, yeah, and sometimes other people, I don't know if they appreciate it as much, but it's like, well, age was gonna make the skin droopy anyway.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Oh, yeah. One way, it's like the boobs, the skin.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

It was gonna go one way. Totally. Gravity's taking a toll. I know. And so I got, you know, the babies out of it. Yeah, absolutely. But it is hard to, you know, I think the the cosmetic piece of it is often what people are thinking about. There's this bounce back culture, which we've done a whole episode on, you know, it it is problematic in some ways, but I do think that it's one of the things that sometimes gets people in the door to work on their Yeah, they come for more of an aesthetic reason and then they realize the functionality is far and away beyond what you know, because you know how I feel about the and I think so much of it is external influences.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Like I want people to really come come home to their true essence of who they are and you know, who they even were as kids before they the world told them who they should be and how they should look. And this is one of those areas that just absolutely drives me crazy because the flat that it's not even physiologically natural, you know, like that isn't actually how we're supposed to look. So I don't know why we're striving for it. Well, I do because it makes money. It's people make money off of it. Yeah, you know, because it's an unattainable look.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Unless you, you know, get liposuction and abdominal plasty and live in the gym. And people do, yeah, absolutely. And so the big thing here is that I think you can always change your muscles and that that the functional strength that you gain from that. And one thing I really admire about my mom, which I've shared, is that you know, she's in the gym every day to crawl around with the grandkids, you know. So she wants to be able to hike Crowpatrick in Ireland and they're in Italy right now, and they're walking thousands and thousands and thousands of those old cobblestone steps and the medieval villages. And she wants to be able to do that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

And that's what I think is very the functionality. Totally. Yeah. Well, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Thanks, Alex. Thank you for listening to Under the Hood. If you liked this episode, please take a minute and leave us a review. And we'd love to hear from you. If you have any ideas for future episodes, please let us know.