Under the Hood

Episode 34: The Vulnerability Flinch - Why We Pull Away From the Good Stuff

• Season 1 • Episode 34

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0:00 | 17:19

You know that feeling when something is so good - your career, your relationship, a perfect spring afternoon - that almost immediately your brain starts bracing for when it ends?? In this episode, sex & relationship therapist Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy and pelvic floor physical therapist Dr. Alex DiGrado explore this concept (coined by research professor and author Brené Brown) and unpack why so many of us reflexively push away joy, connection, and positive emotion, often without even realizing it. You'll learn how staying with joy can lead to deeper connection, greater ease, and a life that feels fuller instead of scarier.

What you'll learn:

  • Why rehearsing grief doesn't make loss easier, and what one patient's early pregnancy experience reveals about embracing joy instead of preparing for heartbreak
  • How the vulnerability flinch plays out in couples and what it costs the relationship
  • The difference between oversharing and true vulnerability
  • How to distinguish healthy self-protection (like curating your media intake) from emotional disconnection

Tune in if you've ever thought:

  • "I literally cannot just enjoy something good without immediately thinking about how it's going to fall apart."
  • “I've been hurt before and I'm not sure I can let my guard down again.”
  • "I love my kids so much it scares me sometimes."

Helpful resources:

Connect with us:

Dr. Rebecca Howard Eudy
Website: rebeccaeudy.com
Instagram: @rebeccahowardeudy
Newsletter: Parents in Love Substack

Dr. Alexandra DiGrado
Website: bostonpelvicpt.com
Instagram: @bostonpelvicpt
Newsletter: Under the Hood

Under the Hood Podcast
Instagram: @underthehooddocs
Website: underthehoodpod.com

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SPEAKER_02

Welcome to Under the Hood. I'm Dr. Alex DeGrotto, your pelvic floor physical therapist. And I'm Dr. Rebecca Howard Uti, your sex and relationship therapist.

SPEAKER_01

Hi, Rebecca. Hi, Alex. Okay, so you told me a term, you gave me a term that I've never heard of before, and I actually have no idea what it means. So that's gonna be the topic for today because I can't be the only one in the world that doesn't know what this is, and that's the vulnerability flinch. And we're gonna try and interweave gratitude as well into this episode. So I believe you mentioned to me that this is a term coined by Brene Brown. Is that I believe so.

SPEAKER_02

I mean I I heard about it first from her.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. And can you explain to me kind of what this is?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, definitely. So, you know, as many people may know, Brene Brown is researcher and storyteller, and she's a social worker by training. And her main area of research is vulnerability. And one of the reasons why it's so important to my work and why I admire her work so much is because vulnerability is so key to so many areas of the human experience. So true. You have to be able to be vulnerable to be connected. That is the gateway into connection. Yeah. And, you know, vulnerability is the birthplace of creativity, intimacy, intimacy, entrepreneurship. So true. You know, there's so much. Anytime you initiate something, anytime you try something new, anytime you try to connect with somebody, share something, it's it's vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01

Because you risk the rejection in some ways. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, one of the most vulnerable things that I personally have done recently is put out this book, which came out in October. And, you know, I wrote the book in the you know, darkness of the early morning in my office, and then nobody read it. I mean, my editor was the first person who read it. Wow. And it was so it felt so vulnerable. To give it to the ed my editor was fine, you know, because she's a professional. But like even Lee didn't read it. Like I was like convinced that this was gonna be, you know, it's a steaming pile of research, you know.

SPEAKER_01

And I think that's so true because every time I've read aloud the prologue, the initial section of my book, I cry. Yeah. Because it's so hard to read it out loud to people. And I have to read it out loud because I can't even let them look at the words. It's like I still need to maintain that sort of like control over it.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, totally. Because it's a risk. It's a risk, monumental risk. Totally putting your hat in the ring in this really big way. Wow. And so anytime we do something that's important, yeah, it's vulnerable. Yes. And anytime we love, it's vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01

It's so vulnerable. I remember when a very, very dear, close person in our family passed away. I went with my sister to say goodbye to them. And I could not show my emotions because it just felt too scary and risky. And I felt like I needed to be the big sister and keep it all together. You know, and my sibling who was with me was just beautifully expressing their feelings, and it was so, it was just so beautiful, you know. And I felt them inside, but I couldn't let them out, you know, because that was just too scary for me at the time, you know.

SPEAKER_02

It's really hard. I mean, it's really hard. It is really vulnerable to be, you know, the way that we experience vulnerability and connection is to allow ourselves to be impacted. Yes. So I talk about this with couples all the time, which is that we misunderstand vulnerability when somebody tells us something. You know, if I were to tell you something about myself that was sort of vulnerable, a lot of times I think particularly women and I think particularly American women think that the way to respond to that is by sharing something back. Yeah, I just did that. I literally just did it.

SPEAKER_00

You talked about your book and I talked about it. Well, you talked, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But I mean that but but that's how I experienced what you just did. But we sometimes miss the marks there. I get it. I've experienced that. Yeah, exactly. And then it leaves you feeling actually disconnected. Yeah, exactly. But the way that we are respond to vulnerability with connection is to allow ourselves to be impacted and allow that to show. Wow. So in that room with that person who you're saying goodbye to, yes, that is a deeply impactful to to allow your that vulnerability of death. Yes. Of impending of saying goodbye.

SPEAKER_01

Saying goodbye.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Of of really life. Yes. That this person's life to allow yourself to be impacted by that, you would show emotions. And that is scary and it's hard. Totally. And so that the the vulnerability flinch is this thing where you are experiencing something so raw. And a lot of times it's love.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You know, a lot of times it it can show up love for our children, love for our partner, appreciation for our life. It's like, it's so good. And so an example of the vulnerability flinch is the knock on wood. Yes. Or the it's like the waiting for the other shoe to drop. Yeah. Like, oh, oh, I just said that something was good. Yes. It's gonna go. Oh, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01

So that's the flinch. I see. You you see? I am misunderstood. I thought the flinch was just not wanting to not wanting to be vulnerable. But what you're saying is it's actually just feeling that vulnerable feeling and then what? Trying to lose. Well, you push it away. Push it away. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

So that's the flinch. And and a lot of times the flinch looks like, oh, I love, you know, my family's so wonderful, or my, you know, this this life is so beautiful, or you feel this joy and this positive feeling, which is deeply vulnerable. Yeah. Because it then we immediately think about it going away. So it's sort of like, and then we start picturing the phone call. Oh wow, that's right. We start picturing car accidents and all of the ways in which it could go away. And then instead of leaning into and feeling the vulnerability of this beautiful moment or this fleeting, you know, thing in our lives that is so joyful, we start to rehearse so that we're prepared.

SPEAKER_01

I had a dear, dear friend who is just wise beyond her years, who said exactly this. And I had a similar conversation with a patient this week where in early pregnancy, many of us are afraid to be excited and afraid to feel that joy and afraid to think about the future because we don't know whether this particular pregnancy will come to fruition and will, and so people fear that joy. It sounds like this is exactly that. But what she said was she was so happy that she experienced that joy and that excitement and that love for the period of time that she experienced it because it wasn't gonna change the outcome. You know, the the miscarriage was gonna happen whether or not she felt joy. And so squashing that doesn't prevent, doesn't keep you safe. It doesn't prevent what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02

It doesn't, but something our nervous system thinks that it will. Yeah, right. If we don't get too excited, then we'll feel less sad, but it's not true. It's not true, it's not true. Exactly. And there's no way that you can rehearse enough for that phone call, whatever that phone call is. Totally. You know, you know what it's gonna be and you don't, you know, and so that I think that's a beautiful example of the vulnerability flinch. And there's a lot of actual we we feel it vicariously. Yes, you know. So if somebody is in Emily pregnancy and they're like, I'm so excited, this is so amazing, and this baby, and they're, you know, yeah, planning and buying clothes and all that, and you sort of do feel like, oh you feel nervous for them. And it's like, I mean, I would never say that, but I think people that I know have experienced that when they are excited, they actually get feedback from people. Well, just just be patient, you know, yeah, totally, as opposed to letting them feel that wonderful joy. And how often do we say that to our kids or to our partners? Or, you know, how often do we feel a vicarious flinch when we see somebody really celebrating or really, you know, being impacted by something? We want to protect them. We want to protect them from the sadness or the disappointment that might be coming down the road, and we want to prepare them for it. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Can you think of any other examples? Because that is the the miscarriage one is the one I can really think of. But are there other examples in life that that would resonate?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I mean, the thing that's coming to mind right now when we record this, it's the early spring. Yeah. And I I'm a gardener. I love flowers. I mean, I love flowers. It's like one of the places that I regularly feel the most just connection, unbridled joy. Yes. You know, like I see a lilac, the lilac the lilacs are blooming right now, and I see the lilacs and I smell the lilacs, and it's like I just life is so beautiful.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It is. They're so beautiful. And it makes my heart just overflow. You know, it's a moment of just like, oh, yes. So much love there. And so then I start thinking about it this is sort of dark, but I start thinking about, okay, you know, maybe we've got two weeks with them. Oh, yeah. And then we have to wait until next year. And where am I gonna be next year? Oh, yeah, totally. Like, what's what how is my life gonna be different next year? And then I start feeling sad. And then I start feeling maybe a little bit anxious, and then I start worrying about what it's gonna be. And so then I bring my I have to bring myself back into the moment. No, no, like so it feels all I think that when we really feel our feelings, they can be overwhelming. Yeah. And that's really what that vulnerability flinch is. So the reason why it's so important to notice when that happens to us is because it's an opportunity to tolerate vulnerability. Yes. Positive emotions. It's not just sadness or, you know, anger, or, you know, we think of vulnerability as being negative, but actually, so often vulnerability is positive. It's anything that impacts us. And so many of us flinch away from any kind of vulnerability. And by doing that, we limit our capacity to really deeply connect and be impacted by other people. And then we have loneliness, even within, and I see this with the couples that I work with all the time, as we start to do this work of getting to know each other better and understanding each other's emotions, there it does start to be really deeply vulnerable because our partners and our loves are so we have such capacity to hurt each other. Yes. And it's easy to get defensive and it's easy to pull away. And put your guard up. And put your guard up. And even with the positive stuff, it can feel like it's hard to be really impacted by people who really matter.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. And then people sometimes say, oh, she wears her heart on her sleeve, or he wears his heart on his sleeve, and and that sort of element of people who are truly sensitive to the world and have those deep emotions and are still expressing freely their feelings. I do think sometimes we almost look down on it a little bit because they are almost constantly vulnerable, right? They're just, they have their heart open to the world and you're just like, ooh, you're gonna get hurt.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. I think there's that. And then in all fairness, there are people who do overshare. Yeah. And that's actually not vulnerable either. No. You know, that's like it, you know, being able to be vulnerable and to sh choose what to share and to choose when to be impacted. It it's really special. You know, it's really special to let somebody in. Yeah. And and choosing carefully who you do that with. Yes. Yeah. And choosing carefully when you allow yourself to be impacted is a beautiful skill. Yeah. Because if And it is a skill, absolutely. It is a skill. And so, you know, there's some people who really struggle. You know, emotions are contagious. Yeah. Right. So they really struggle because they're walking through the world, sort of this open and and, you know, this sort of like more empath. Empath, yeah. Yeah. And so that can be really challenging. Those folks, you know, they may really need to figure out how to guard themselves a little bit more, how to be a little less impacted.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. That's interesting because I will not watch any movies or shows that have violence, sexual violence, especially abuse. I don't find that to be entertaining in any way, shape, or form. When people were into Game of Thrones, I was disgusted and horrified. I just refused. And then also I really, really watch what I absorb in terms of news and stuff like that because I do get so deeply impacted. So I think you're right. It's sort of culling what you even expose yourself to if you know that you have those tendencies.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I agree. I'm the same way. Being, I think, a little bit more sensitive to the environment. I'm very sort of careful about what I absorb.

SPEAKER_01

Or even expose yourself to. Yeah. But I that is a skill that I learned over time. When I was younger, I used to watch scary movies with my friends and stuff, and I would hate it. Yeah. They would seem like they liked it. They would be so entertained by it. And I would be so deeply in, I would think about it for weeks. Yeah. You know? And so then it as an adult, I've realized, oh, that's not for me. Yeah. That doesn't entertain me. I don't like that. I'm not going to do that. So that's an interesting. I wasn't, I didn't realize that that this would meander in that direction, but it's very relatable.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I think the thing, especially with relationships that can happen is that we it when we allow somebody else to see that they can impact us, it gives them power over us. And when you've been in a relationship and you've been hurt in a relationship, it can feel really scary to open yourself up and allow, you know, even your, you know, spouse to know that they can impact you that much. Because there is a protective piece of wanting to, you know, wanting to protect yourselves, not wanting to be hurt. But but again, that's the tolerance of vulnerability. Which to be honest, like I as a therapist, I'm very comfortable with other people's vulnerability. And I'm very, you know, I I am, I feel deeply impacted by my clients. I'm often very touched by their emotions. And in my personal life, I do struggle with vulnerability. And so when I say to my clients, like, it's the fucking worst. Like, I am with you. You do not like being vulnerable. Neither do I. In my own life, you know, when I go to therapy, I'm like, oh, I've got therapy today.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I just I just skip it and research for the podcast. You know, I just do my therapy session researching for the podcast.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I mean, I when you said that, you know, our last episode when you were talking about that, I was like, that is very, very relatable, you know. I do my the therapy that I do is IFS, internal family systems. Okay. I've been doing that, and I I it's very interesting. You know, I I like to do the therapy that I'm interested in getting trained in. And so when I was getting trained in emotionally focused therapy, I was like, hey, Lee, can we do a little research? You know, and also maybe it won't hurt our relationship. And so, but the same thing, when we were going to couples therapy, we've since graduated. Amazing. Oh, when we were going to couples therapy regularly, I was like, oh, oh no, we've got therapy today. It's the worst. And you know, he had a very different experience of it. I think he really looked forward to it. But for people who tend to be a little bit more, a little bit better at compartmentalizing, who don't struggle so much with regulating their emotions because they're really good at compartmentalizing, which is not me. They may find that watching those movies that evoke emotion or you know, they may be scathartic, exactly. But for those of us who walk through the world, you know, really focusing on kind of keeping a steady stream, we may want to avoid that. And and, you know, that's not a bad thing. That's not that is not the vulnerability flinch. That's knowing yourself. Yeah. But the vulnerability flinch is that moment that I mean, I think that the miscarriage is a really beautiful example, or the I love my kids so much, I hope nothing goes wrong.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Wow. And and experiencing that unbridled joy without feeling that you that you have to suppress it. Yeah. Exactly. Cool. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Under the Hood. If you liked this episode, please take a minute and leave us a review. And we'd love to hear from you. If you have any ideas for future episodes, please let us know.