You Can't Pour from an Empty Cup, But No One Slows Down

We say it all the time...you can't pour from an empty cup. So why does everyone in veterinary medicine keep pouring anyway?!

In this episode, we get honest about burnout: what the early warning signs actually look like (cynicism, apathy, dehumanizing clients — and they're different for everyone), and why psychological safety through regular one-on-ones is your first line of defense.

We also dig into the systems that actually support team wellbeing — staffing, charting support, structured space to process hard things — and why CSRs, technicians, and DVMs often need different solutions. People over profits, always.

And then the harder question: are you taking care of yourself the way you take care of your patients? When did you last get your own bloodwork done?

Host = Brenda Tassava Medina, CVPM, CVJ, MVLCE

Panelists:

• Dr. Evan Ware, Practice Owner at Laveen Veterinary Center
• Julie Squires, CCFP, CMLC, Rekindle Solutions
• Carol Hurst, LVT, CVPM, CVJ, CCFP, Consultant at Encore Veterinary Consulting

Resources mentioned:

• Compassion Satisfaction Accredited Workplace (CSAW) Program

Thanks for listening!

Website: https://encorevet.com/

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Instagram: @encorevetconsulting

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/encore-veterinary-consulting

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Welcome aboard. You're listening to Flight Plan Quick Consults, your go-to podcast for veterinary insights that are fast, focused, and designed to elevate your practice. I'm your host, Brenda Tasma Medina from Encore Veterinary Consulting. Whether you are between appointments or heading into a strategy session, we've got takeoff ready tips, tools, and takeaways to keep your team soaring. So buckle up and set a course for you can't pour from an empty cup, but no one slows down. Today's panel includes Carol Hurst, Julie Squires, and Dr. Evan Ware. Dr. Ware, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

Oh, thank you, Brenda. So I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, and uh started my first practice in 2014 and my second in 2015 in Phoenix, Arizona. Um I am uh husband to a beautiful wife and father to an awesome boy that is my best friend.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

Awesome. Next up is Julie Squires.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Hello, Brenda. It's good to be here and good to see you again. Uh, I'm Julie Squires. I'm coming to you from upstate New York. I am a uh three-decade veterinary industry person. Uh currently I serve the veterinary field as a certified compassion fatigue specialist, certified master life coach, and I just look for all the ways to bring the joy and fulfillment back into such a challenging field, such as VetMed. So delighted to be here with you all today.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

Happy to have you here today, Julie. And the director of our compassion satisfaction accredited workplace program, Carol Hurst.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Hi, Brenda. Um, I am Carol Hurst. Uh I have my roots as a credentialed technician, went into vetmed straight out of high school. Uh, I was put into a leadership position really early on, just a couple of years after getting my credentialing. So, for better or for worse, you know, I've been in this leadership field um for a while. And I did my practice management, got my C VPM in 2017, um, taught for Patterson University a little bit, um, dabbled in my own consulting before joining your wonderful company um as a full-time consultant. And that's that's me.

SPEAKER_03 2:37

Glad to have you by my side at all times. All right, so this is just a great topic, and I think it's on a lot of people's minds. Um, I'm gonna start with what are the earliest warning signs that a veterinarian or team member is heading toward burnout and how do we intervene before it's too late? Carol, you want to kick us off?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Sure. So the thing that I look for um in my team is the behavioral signs that are abnormal for them, right? And you know, I approach it as my team wants to do well and does do well when they can. And so when I'm seeing some of these enhanced behavioral signs, so think of the team member that is late when they're usually on time, um, or the one that starts to become a little more hypercritical when they're not so vocal in that manner. Um, just some of these enhanced behavioral signs that kind of clue me in as a leader that I may need to check in. And so my intervention would be um pulling them into maybe a one-on-one. And um I I like to organize my questions to be a little bit more um than just how are we doing, right? Because oftentimes that kind of stunts the answer that you'll get. And so I like to organize my questions maybe um, you know, where are you feeling slowed down or backed up? What's taking more effort than it should? Um, or even if I could remove one thing from your plate today, what would actually help? So that we can start a dialogue around how they're feeling, how they're doing, you know, what's going on in their world?

SPEAKER_03 4:24

Awesome. Thank you. Julie, what are your thoughts on this this particular question?

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Well, I like that I get to go after Carol because she had some really good things that uh, you know, I I think, first of all, it is different for everyone. And I get particularly concerned when people are becoming cynical, are starting to dehumanize. And like they are saying things like, oh, this is just a thankless career, or no one's happy and vet med, or you know, they start to dehumanize clients. Well, they shouldn't have waited so long. It's their fault, stuff like that. And I want us to get to a place where we we're not trying to chase after burnout, where we're actually being proactive because everyone is susceptible. Here we are, like I said before, it's a stressful field, it's highly emotional, it asks a lot of people. And the other thing to keep in mind is it's not all about work, right? It's like, you know, our I talk a lot about our window of tolerance, our nervous system state that enables us to handle um the ups and downs every single day. And sometimes that is affected by things that have nothing to do with work. And that's also something to keep in mind of what is going on for somebody outside of work. Like Carol, I think it's important to do regular one-on-one check-ins with people so you start to build that psychological safety. So when they hopefully finally feel as though you are someone that they can come to for support.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

Awesome. Dr. Ware, what's been your experience with this and early warning signs with either yourself or your team?

SPEAKER_00 6:01

It's first of all, it's hard to uh to come in after three, sorry, two very educated professionals in this area in particular. So I'm not sure that I can provide too much uh additional benefit beyond that. But what I will say is I think for me, it actually starts well before someone's capacity and drive start to deteriorate. I I think for me it's really important that I develop a relationship with all of my employees from the from the get out so that develops a uh a feeling of trust where we can communicate to each other, where we can express our feelings kind of openly without consequences, so that you really know the person. Once you know the person and that trust has developed, I think it's easier to see those signs and those changes start to become more prominent and you recognize that. You know, if you don't have those personal relationships with people, people are really good at hiding things. Um, and yes, you you certainly can notice if someone is irritable or or terse in their responses, but I think it's really important to notice the subtle signs very, very early. So you can really stay ahead of it. And that I think you you have to develop that trust on the front end with all of your employees. Now, there's like a balancing act, right? Um, of of that relationship. And so that's kind of walking the fine line of especially me being the employer and the relationship that I have, but I think it's important to develop some some degree of relationship with everybody, especially the ones that you are uh managing directly. From the early warning signs, I mean, I have vacillated many times throughout my career of being ultra focused, ultra motivated, and ambitious. And for my experiences, I can feel, I guess the best word would be more of an apathy. Of you know, you you start to care less, and you're you feel tired. And I I think a lot of times it's you don't even recognize that it's actual burnout. And you you have to have this body awareness and mental awareness with yourself um to to realize those things.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

Great advice. Great advice. Um what systems, and and when I say systems, I I don't want to talk about perks because we do hear a lot about that, but what systems actually can improve well-being inside a busy practice? Julie, what's been your experience here?

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Well, I'm gonna get on my pedestal for just a second. And and I and and I'm gonna say that we have to like the the the mantra has to be people over profits. Now, I get it, you know, I get it. Veterinary practices are businesses, but we can't let profit be driving everything. Like the people, without the people, there is no profits. And if we have unhealthy people, we have burned out people, we have compassion-fatigued people, then the profits aren't where they're supposed to be anyways. So I think we need to look at the things that no one wants to look at, right? Is like what are the length of our appointments? How much downtime is there between, you know, morning appointments, afternoon surgery, or afternoon appointments? Do we have a system in place to help veterinarians, especially with charting? You know, I have so many of my one-on-one clients that are spending three hours charting after an eight-hour shift. Um, do we have enough staff? Are we insisting back up on my pedestal? Are we insisting that everyone gets a break? Like this can't just be, it's still when I mention breaks, everybody laughs in the room. It's like I I just I I pine for the day when we talk about a lunch break where everyone's like, mm-hmm, absolutely. It's like I brush my, just like I brush my teeth every day, I get a lunch break every day. Um and then I think what we need is someone to make sure that we have someone to cover their breaks because that's why people don't want to go on a break. There's no one to cover them and there's too much work or there's still work. So I think those are some things, fair compensation, of course. Do I feel like I'm being valued here, right? Are there benefits? Are there signals from my employer that I am valued as an individual? And I get it, we're all replaceable, but nobody wants to feel like that. I want to feel like, you know what, like somebody sees something special in me. Uh and I think the last thing I'll say is I think we have to look at each department within a veterinary practice individually. In other words, you know, we're looking at the um CSRs and like what is it that they need that will foster their well-being? What do the technicians need? What do the doctors need? What does the um administration need and leadership?

SPEAKER_03 11:15

I love that you said that because I can remember a time when my technician team came to me and said, look, we would really love to do um 12-hour days. And and their justification was the fact that most of them drove almost one hour one way to work. And it was really difficult to work multiple days and all that driving. And so we came up with a plan for that, and it worked really, really well for that particular team because they had coverage. Um, the CSRs quickly said, Hey, what about us? We'd love to do those 12-hour shifts. And I looked at that and I'm like, I can't see anybody being on with clients the way I need you to be on on the phones and in person in a 12-hour block of time. It's just a very different beast. And so, you know, once they realize that, you know, they they were very accepting of that. But you're right, we do have to think about the nature of the work that different departments are doing.

SPEAKER_00 12:17

It sounds good on paper. Those those long shifts sound good on paper.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Once you live through them, not so much. I I struggle with that with my veterinarians a lot. You know, we work four-day work, four-day um per week, and all of them want four days and then a three-day weekend. And my counterpoint is well, is your motivation and productivity the same on that fourth day as it is on your first day? And I think they all have to go through it and live it and realize, man, breaking up the week is far superior for me mentally than working four consecutive days, seeing appointments, you know, seeing you know 20, 20 appointments a day for four days straight or whatever. It's incredibly exhausting.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

I like that approach or that thought process because to me, what struck me when you said that was it's about like living your best, like whether you're at work or at home, versus, you know, I want to cram all my work into four days so that I can have these three days off, you know, and and really recognizing that that fourth day, we're not living our best. We're really under a lot of stress that's built up. I really like that. Carol, what about you? What systems have you seen that actually improve well-being?

SPEAKER_01 13:43

So I really love this question. Um, and Julie, the people over profits thing, I think is is just such a great target. Um, and you know, I've got to have a little shameless self-promotion because our compassion satisfaction accredited workplace program is about the systems you can put into place to give structure to team satisfaction wellness. And so um, you know, I think being intentional about it means that you're gonna be able to drive that change in a positive manner. And when I look at the pillars of our program, the one that stands out, I mean, you know, all of them have a place, but the one that really stands out for me is workplace harmony and how we can structure our communication cascade and our communication among the team and the leadership to really support the team. Um, you know, one of the things that we don't do enough is acknowledge the emotional burden and toll that our field takes on, takes on us. Um, and a lot of it is inherent to the profession. A lot of it we can't change. But what we can do is create that safe space. And, you know, through MM rounds, you know, through our our team meetings, through our leadership meetings, give our our teams and our leadership some space to really talk through and process some of the hard things that we go through. Um and, you know, I think being structured about that can really, really help overall.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

Thanks for that, Carol. Dr. Ware, what have you found in terms of systems that actually improve well-being in your practice?

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Uh I'm gonna deviate slightly. And what I will say is a little bit um going back to what Julie spoke about, I believe that our profession can be a little bit of a scapegoat, and and we we tend to blame a lot of our problems on the work. And the bigger problem is a is a more systemic issue with with our lives directly. And you know, so I've been through a lot of ups and downs, as I had said, and you know, a lot of the blame went went to work because work is stressful. But, you know, as a veterinarian and practice owner, kind of zooming out a little bit, I I realized that my disconnection and my ability to recharge my battery was was really the biggest problem. And I couldn't handle as much in the work setting because I hadn't optimized the other aspects of my life. And you know, I I I kind of took this approach after some really heavy inflection and looking in the mirror and kind of you know became very analytical with my uh with my dissection and kind of separated my life into my my mental health, my physical health, my spiritual health, and and what am I doing in in all three of those departments so that I can be the best, the best father, the best husband, the best practice owner, the best veterinarian. I wanted to kind of optimize myself. And um sometimes it's hard to look in the mirror. And I think a lot of people kind of taking another tangent, you know, they get out of work and they're exhausted, they're they're tired, and they're thinking about work and they're they're trying to numb themselves, whether that be with sitting on the couch on social media, whether that be with alcohol, whether that be, you know, I don't know what it is. Everything Netflix, but but that's not really recharging the battery. And and it takes a lot of introspection to figure out, man, what are the things that really recharge my battery and make me the best person that I can be? And then all the other things become less stressful. You know, work's not as stressful as if you're feeling the best that you can be. We could go in, I we could have a five-hour discussion about this. So I won't get into it too too too much, but you know, I I think outside of work is equally as important, more important maybe for me, as inside of the work setting.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

It's resilience, right? Like if you if you're pouring from an empty cup, you're not going to be able to pour for others. And I think that I think that sums it up perfectly what you said.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

It's like putting your own oxygen mask on before you you go to help others, you know, you've really got to take care of self.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Well, and that's part of the problem, right? Because infused in veterinary medicine, infused to be a veterinarian, to be a veterinary nurse, et cetera, et cetera, is this idea of selflessness, which it's not gonna work. Selflessness, you know, it it sounds so noble, it sounds so wonderful to be selfless, but less of self is is never gonna get you to the finish line. It's gonna create more problems. So we actually, and this is the hardest thing to do, is to get to get us all to be thinking about ourselves first. Like, how do I feel myself? So I go to work every day and I get to be, you know, who I want to be, the best version of me, the version of me that that uh I I enjoy being around myself.

SPEAKER_00 19:33

Love that.

SPEAKER_03 19:34

I think an important thought also is that work can't do this for you. This is something that you have to, as Dr. Ware said, it's a lot of self-reflection, it's a lot of introspection, and you are the only one who can take care of you in a manner that brings you to work at your best.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

I cannot reiterate that more. I actually made notes about this podcast, and that was what I highlighted the most that no one's coming to save you. You know, you you do people can help you, but you have to have the capacity to recognize it and uh put the systems in place to to heal yourself to be to be the best person you can be. It doesn't have to be, it seems overwhelming, but I think, and it doesn't have to happen all at once. Like that can be overwhelming in and of itself. Like the way that I kind of broke it down into kind of those three categories. Like I decided to focus on the the physical aspect, and we're all really analytical people. And you know, we recommend as veterinarians, we're recommending, you know, all this wellness preventative care for our patients, but are we are we doing that for ourselves? You know, are are we making sure that you know, our are we doing the just the physical testing? We go into the doctor and having our blood tests and hormones and electrolytes and you know, omega is are we are we testing that on ourselves on a regular basis? Are we developing a plan to to optimize our own physiology? So I think that's kind of one easy first step because it's so objective and you can see results relatively quickly, and then then we kind of after that is set up, now we go on to nutrition. All right, well, are we are we fueling our bodies with the right amount of right type of food? You know, are are we eating fast food all the time? Why are we eating false food all the time? Is this because we don't have the time to do it? It's because it's easy. Like I I think we have to just separate these things into sections and attack them one at a time and Go through it so it's not super overwhelming.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Julie and I could go on for days about nutrition. I know that because we are fellow vegans. Um, and I think one of the other things that you and I have talked about, Dr. Ware, is sleep and how important sleep is. And not only just sleep, it's the quality of your sleep. So I think that all plays together.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

You nailed it. You know, after I kind of did all this research and reflection, that is the single most important um part of getting the process started is kind of optimizing your sleep and and really making that your top priority because I mean we've all been sleep deprived and we know kind of the effects that it has. And there's there's many different things, and I won't get into it, but there's many different things that you can do to try to optimize your your sleep cycle. It it truly is how your brain recharges and stays healthy. And if if if you're not prioritizing that, it's a it's a very slippery slope.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

Well, thank you all for being with us today. And thank you for flying with us on Flight Plan Quick Consults. If today's insights helped you climb to new heights, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with your crew. Until next time, keep your mission clear, your team aligned, and your practice soaring.