The Leadership Trap: Managing Everyone the Same Way

Why does one leadership style never work for every employee? Brenda sits down with Debbie Hill, Brandon Hess, and Amy Tipton to make the case that "treat people the way THEY want to be treated" beats the golden rule when it comes to leadership — and that management should stay consistent while leadership has to flex person-by-person.

From there, the panelists dig into what adapting actually looks like — creativity, vulnerability, boundaries, tools like the Predictive Index — and why balancing awareness of your team with self-awareness is what separates good leaders from great ones.

Books mentioned throughout the episode:

• First Break All the Rules from Gallup
• Please Understand Me: Character and Temperament Types by David Keirsey & Marilyn Bates
• Emotional Intelligence 2.0 by Dr. Travis Bradberry & Dr. Jean Greaves
• Trust & Inspire by Stephen Covey

Host = Brenda Tassava Medina, CVPM, CVJ, President of Encore Veterinary Consulting

Panelists:

• Debbie Hill, CVPM, SPHR, SHRM-SCP, Consultant at Encore Veternary Consulting
• Brandon Hess, CVPM, CCFP, Partner at Grants Lick Veterinary Hospital
• Amy Tipton, COO at Encore Vet Group

Thank you to Joan Marshall of PIMidlantic for sponsoring this episode! Want to take the Predictive Index Assessment? Click here!

Thanks for listening!

Website: https://encorevet.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/encoreveterinaryconsulting

Instagram: @encorevetconsulting

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/encore-veterinary-consulting

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Flight Plan Quick Consult is sponsored by PI Midlantic and Joan Marshall. Predictive Index helps veterinary leaders better understand what drives their people so they can hire more thoughtfully, improve communication, build stronger teams, and lead each employee more effectively. Joan is a former human resources executive who used PI within several companies before becoming a PI Midlantic consultant nearly 25 years ago. To learn how Joan can support your practice, contact her directly at jmarshall at Pimidlantic.com. Welcome aboard. You're listening to Flight Plan Quick Consult, your go-to podcast for veterinary insights that are fast, focused, and designed to elevate your practice. I'm your host, Brenda Tasma Medina from Encore Veterinary Consulting. Whether you're between appointments or heading into a strategy session, we've got takeoff ready tips, tools, and takeaways to keep your team soaring. Today's flight plan takes us to the leadership trap, managing everyone the same way. With our guest panelists, Amy Tipton, Brandon Hess, and Debbie Hill. Amy, tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Hi, Brandon. Thanks for having me. I am the COO of On Corvette Group, been with them a little over two years, spent the first um many years in my career in human health care. I'm a speech pathologist by background, but I am an animal lover, have been forever, and I was inevitably going to find myself on this vet journey, and I'm so glad to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Yes, and we're so glad to have you here today. Next up is Brandon.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you for having me. It's been a little while. So glad to be back. My name is Brandon Hess. I'm a certified veterinary practice manager, certified compassion fatigue uh professional and a HR professional through Sherm. Uh been in the industry for oh gosh, almost 20 years now. Been consulting and speaking for about 10 years. And uh I also own three uh practices independent in northern Kentucky. So I'm excited to talk about this topic today. It's it's very pertinent.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Yes, it is. And the one and only Debbie Hill.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

I'm feeling quite the veteran now. Um I'm uh newly retired from active hospital administration uh for veterinary and with multiple locations. And like Brandon, for 13 years, I also taught for Patterson Veterinary University and spoke around the country to managers who I knew were having the same problems I was. And it brought back a wealth of information for my practices. As one of the things that I've learned from that 37 years of working with hundreds of employees and dozens of doctors is that there's no one right way to talk to people, even though I know we think ours is the right way, they don't agree. So I'm really excited about today's topic. And retirement's given me time to do some consult work with Encore. And I wrote a couple of good HR courses. Feel free to find those and take them wherever you can because learning is my that's my jam. I feel like I was given an awful lot of opportunities, and I have a responsibility to hand that back to managers that just think they're by themselves when we're all feeling with the same problems. Excited for today's topic because lots of people.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

I feel like if I'm in a veterinary practice management conference, Debbie Hill will be there.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Now that it's on my own dime, I'm working at it a little bit harder. It's a lot easier to put a man paying for it.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

So this topic is very near and dear to my heart as well, because um, back when I was a hospital administrator in my younger years, as as in that role, I had somebody come and visit our practice from Canada. It was a group of practice owners. And as we got to chatting, uh, one of the things that he recommended that I read, or he asked if I'd ever read it before, was first break all the rules. And um, I love this book, and I I believe it's made a huge impact on me as a leader. Um, because when I read it, it it's a study based off of what's the difference? The Gallup organization conducted this study. But it they wanted to look at what's the difference between really good managers and the ones that are really, really great. And that's what this book talks about, but it's also what we're going to be diving into. So, my first burning question for our panel is why does one leadership style never work for every employee? And uh, Debbie, you already got rolling, so let's start with you.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

Um well, I think that we tend to lead with a personality style that feels comfortable to us. I mean, I feel like people want that personal praise and touch. And uh when I thought about this topic, I was amazed at how many different tools and resources uh have come up over the, I don't know, last 15, 20 years to our uh attention on personality and communication styles. And I like I know the people on this podcast, we've all done all those. And yet we come out with the same system, right? So I think that we come into it with our team wanting to understand more about each other, and really they just come out happy with whoever they are. And it made me think that we are kind of the same thing. Like I'm gonna, you know, spend a little bit of money, get everybody tested for something cool, like canine colors. Look, there's dogs. This will be fun. Personality, who doesn't love it? This is fun. Thanks for that little plug. And at no point did I think, oh, I need to treat Liz a little bit differently than I have been because Liz doesn't think that way. So I think that we go into it inwardly and we would be better served by looking to what those individuals are telling us. Like we've spent some money on it, we should be listening.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Amy, what's your take on this?

SPEAKER_02 5:59

So, speaking of books that really broaden your view on things, I read a book early in my career called Please Understand Me. And it was a personality profile type book, and we all learn different um what categories, you know, what type of people we were, what were our drives and needs. And truly, before reading that, I I always thought that the rule of thumb was treat others the way you want to be treated. That's that's what we were taught as kids. That's the golden rule. But that really isn't the golden rule. The golden rule is to treat people the way they want to be treated. And I'm an extrovert. I'm, you know, I I love to do things like this. And so the things that I want would be very, very different from some of my colleagues who don't even want to be called on in a Teams meeting. Like, you know, and so I learned that early on. Um, that was a real pivotal thing for me because I, as I was developing as a leader, thought, you know, I was doing the right thing if I was treating them the way that I wanted, managing them the way I wanted.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Yeah, yeah. Brandon, where did you stumble along learning more about this?

SPEAKER_00 7:16

So this is very fresh as a as a practice owner. I I personally have been struggling with my own leadership style and adapting that to all the post-COVID challenges that there have been with uh employment and stuff. I think I agree with uh everything that's been said so far. You know, treat others the way that they want to be treated, not the way that you want to be treated. I think from a psychological standpoint, we tend to speak to others the way that we like to be spoken to rather than speaking to others the way that they like to be spoken to. One thing that kind of resonated with me is uh differentiating between management and leadership. You know, I think management needs to be consistent, leadership needs to be different, and you need to adapt to be people's, you know, um confidence versus their competence. You know, there's people that are really confident, but they're not very competent, and vice versa. So, you know, I differ people have different levels of emotional intelligence, and I I think that I have been kind of adapting my leadership style from less of a bottom-up management style, more of a, you know, you guys control everything in the practice versus a, you know, I I would love your input. Um, but ultimately I'm gonna make the decisions as the practice owners. I think, you know, as a consultant, when we go into practices, it's surprising to hear that team want team members want accountability, they want consistent accountability, they want a consistent management. And I think uh it's natural to kind of shy away from that because that's challenging as a as a manager, but management needs to be consistent, leadership needs to be adaptable to the individual that you're talking to and and leading.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

I think that's a real I think that's a really good point. And um, I find that when I'm in practices working with team leaders, you know, oftentimes I will run across um a leader or maybe even a department where everybody is so similar, it's pretty obvious that the leader has been hiring to attract people like them, right? And, you know, that's kind of like a default reaction. Um I and it's not the healthiest thing for any organization because we need some diversity in the makeup of our teams in order to truly innovate and think differently. And so I think that that's something that leaders might want to reflect on within their own practices and think about. And I know it's stretching yourself to say, oh, now I'm gonna, you know, I have to really look at, you know, people a different way, and now I've got to adapt. And it's like, yes, but you are the leader. And so the effort truly is worth it if if you put the time into it. Debbie, should great leaders adapt or should we expect employees to adapt?

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Um, I was just thinking about this yesterday. I was somewhere out in town and you know, somebody's crabby about service working somehow, and you know, these kids now. And it was, it just really was the perfect timing. So I thought the kicker is we have to adapt. And we can't sit around saying, oh, it's this generation or COVID's just messed up the whole pot. Um, used to be you could motivate people with it with money. Like, I'm I'm a boomer. Like, you want to give me some more money, I will do whatever you need to. That's not the way anymore. And so then we said, oh, they're just lazy and want a lot of time off. So we threw that out. Well, that kind of worked, but now everybody wants the time off and everybody still wants the money. And as leaders, we're still trying to figure out how to make all of these people, I won't say happy, but content in their workplace while we're working it. Because the 50 cents doesn't matter. If you want responsibility and to be seen as the smartest kid in the pot, then I need to be able to give you an opportunity to look like your knowledge is validated. Uh, and kind of to Amy's point, sometimes we're like, oh, we're gonna call on Liz. She's so good at this, it'll be great. And Liz is mortified. She never wants to speak in public. She's happy to be in charge of reminders forever, but don't point her out. Um, I think we have to adapt and I think we have to quit whining about generations. Like it's not going to change. People have these huge lives that oddly they think are more important than our career, which I don't understand that process, but whatever. And we have to get that. Like if their kids' kickball starts at six, they will be gone by 5:30. And firing them to hire a new person that has to be out for something else is not it. So I think we have to adapt. And I think it's going to challenge us because uh we're also kind of falling into our really comfortable habits. Um, but you know, I'll take money, but not everybody wants money and time off. Brenda knows me. I don't need time off. I need at every veterinary conference. I could slip under my belt and think this is my idea of a good time. But it's not everybody's idea of a good time. Well, you just jumped right onto my vein this week, didn't you?

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Amy, how do we adapt as leaders? Well, I have to say I really do understand what Debbie's saying. Deal with those same challenges. Um, and so I think first of all, we've got to recognize that we have to adapt. Like you can hold firm and hold the line and suck it up buttercup, and you know, this is the method we're gonna use. And I love the suck it up buttercup method, although I'm not advocating for it here. I it's it's my generation, right? And um I think understanding that I yes, that employee needs to leave at 5 30. They're they're prioritizing their kids' soccer. Understood that. Is there a way to adapt? Can we make it a win-win? Can, you know, I think, you know, I had an employee once and he everyone loved him. He was honestly one of the best practice managers I've worked with, but he was really, really struggled with details. He really struggled with like getting the reports done on time and things like that. And so there was conversation about should we just terminate him? And it's like, I can't even imagine us not having him on this team. He's so valuable. And then we said, well, okay, what are our alternatives? And um, we ended up getting an administrative support in his practice and um made all the difference in the world. So then he was able to be the best leader he could be, and the details and things were able to still be accomplished um and supportive. And you can't always do that, but I think it's really important to try to find a win-win uh when you have really good people and you know that their um intentions are good and they're they really just are trying to balance life and work.

SPEAKER_03 13:48

Yeah, it's I I love that story. It made me think of my own work relationship with my daughter, and you know, you all know her, and I joke sometimes that I birth I birthed her with management in mind in terms of creating the ultimate employee. But but it's it's that she balances me out so well, she picks up all the things that she knows that I struggle with. I'm I'm not a high detail person and I'm like the big idea person, but I can lay out those big ideas and she's so connected to me, she gets what I'm saying, and she can she can carry it out very quickly and efficiently. And it's amazing to watch her do that. Um, Brandon, you're working on it. How how are you adapting?

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Painfully. No, it's it's it's it's hard to look inward. You know, I think it's natural to look at everybody else and say, oh, everybody else needs a change. I mean, how many times have we heard you know practice leaders say, I wish I could just fire everybody and hire new staff? Well, you know, that's uh we all say culture is top down and those behaviors are top down. And I feel like if the leadership members don't change or adapt, uh, then you're gonna run into the same issues. So for me, it's it's been about understanding that I'm not trying to change who I am. I'm just trying to find a different path to the results that I want to find. The results at the end game is the same. Um, I just need to be more decisive, right? You know, so I'm not changing my personality, I'm just changing how I get to certain results. Uh, and and and making sure that when I'm dealing with people, that I am not accommodating too much. Uh, I'm a I'm adapting myself, I'm not accommodating or working around that individual to a point where I wouldn't be able to do that for other people also. Um, so you know, vulnerability is something that I'm working on. That's a huge adaptability for me. I typically typically am not a very vulnerable person, um especially in my professional life, uh, but I know my staff need that from me, and I've seen good results from being vulnerable. Um, I've seen good results from uh being more decisive. Uh, you know, I think it I've I've kind of felt the last couple of years that I've been damned if I do or damned if I don't in decisions. And the thing is, is if if I'm damned if I do or damned if I don't, then what's the harm in being more decisive? Uh regardless, you know, someone's not gonna like those decisions. So, you know, I think I think leaders should absolutely adapt. And I think you should also expect your employees to adapt, but your employees will adapt as you adapt. Um, I've seen changes in some of my staff members with being more decisive. Um, you know, some who who usually bark the loudest have been barking a little bit quieter recently uh because uh I've been more assertive and and more less of like, hey, what do you guys think? And more of this is what we're gonna do. You guys help me find the path to get there.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

So you reminded me of something I read last week. Um, it was a magazine article, and it was about, you know, I'm really into the generations because I want to truly understand the different generations. And this was talking about um the current generation of children and how they've been raised by millennials who've kind of taken the approach of uh, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna uh empower them, we're gonna, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna recognize their feelings and we're gonna talk about their feelings. And they've they've these children are growing up and then not being resilient. They just have total meltdowns because they haven't been taught that other side of the coin. And so the the researchers around this were talking about, you know, there's there's still time if they're like eight, nine, 10 years old, to just start doing some simple things to help them understand boundaries. And I know I'm talking about children, but I think in general, you know, in any situation that we're in, whether it's work or school or, you know, whatever, family even, setting boundaries and expectations are what our team needs and wants. And what they found in this study with the kids with all the feelings was as soon as the parent changed a little bit, adapted, and started saying, No, I get it, I recognize your feelings, but no, I'm not going to give in to that. It was like, oh, okay. And they bounced back from it. And the parents didn't expect that because they were taking this approach and not really recognizing that children, people need structure. And they do, and those boundaries are super, super helpful. So um, yeah, what do you think, Debbie?

SPEAKER_01 18:29

I know that you cringed at the Well, and the kickers, I get it, it's all about the feelings. Um, but I think when we go back to adapting, I would say 10, 15 years ago, it's like feelings. Well, tell them to go do their job. And it's like Amy's saying, suck it up. Nobody really cares about your sad life. And then it went through a phase where, oh, we have to be all about their sad life. And I'm sorry that the other 15 of you have to suffer because this person has an issue. Um, and I think it's going to be adaptability. Uh, when you talk about kids, um, I've got these three daughters, totally different people. I've always admired parents who could like just give a disappointed look and the kid jumped right in line. That was none of my kids. Like they don't care if I'm upset. And the feelings, like I didn't care about their feelings and they didn't care if I was upset. And so when I come into a practice situation and thinking, you know, why is this person resisting my direction? It goes back to what Brandon said. Well, I was just either too loosey-goosey with the fact that this is my expectation, um, or I I like them so well I thought they would just do whatever I said. And the kicker is I didn't look at their motivator. Like, are they motivated by my um appreciation of them? A couple of them are. The others don't really care. Um, so I think we have to look. Are they looking for, you know, respect or money or validation? And that digs a little deeper. I was kind of thinking this is my perfect thing to blow in. One year I had this beautiful light bulb moment and I we'd done some kind of cool resource and I created a spreadsheet. I put everybody's name on it and whether they came out, if they were, you know, Labradors or Goldens or Blue or whatever they were. And then I put kind of some what I had garnered in my opinions of what mattered to them, just kind of like Amy said, if they cringe in a meeting or if they take over the meeting, and I think, okay, how am I gonna manage these people without giving them the reins to the whole firm? Um, some people just want to be seen as knowledgeable, they don't need a whole lot of hoopla, and some people just need you to pat them on the shoulder. Um, and I think that that adaptability is not what we have been taught in conferences for the last ever how long? Like I've never been to a conference where people said you should go validate your people with a lot of warm fuzzy, unless they're saying that there's no accountability. And so somewhere that balance uh is where I believe we're gonna find our happy spot.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Yes, yes. Amy, have you discovered any tools to help you flush out how you need to adapt to different employees on your team?

SPEAKER_02 20:58

I have, and you recently had a podcast on one of the one of my favorite tools, which is the predictive index, similar to the book I started with, please understand me, but you know, Myers Briggs, things of that nature, I think they're invaluable because it helps you to understand what motivates them, what drives them, um, what doesn't motivate them, and which is equally uh important. And I think the other part that I really love about those types of tools and the predictive index in particular, because it's a it's a work focus, like um how you are in the work setting, which is one of the things I love about it. But it's such a a way to have an aha moment and understand your colleagues in a way you maybe didn't before. And so I I like to talk things through. I I love to brainstorm, let's get on the phone and talk it out. And Brenda's daughter, Jesse, is a thinker. she's much more reserved and uh first time I saw her in person I was so excited to be seeing Jesse I almost jumped out of my skin I was like Jesse and I hugged her and I'm not kidding the fear on her face was like talking about you know do you want to be hugged? Oh my Lord I scared the girl to death and I was just I just wanted to hug her up um and I was like this is not a good leadership approach with Jesse I I've just alienated terrified her so um those tools really help I think just cut to the chase of of what are the primary drivers people have and making sure as a team how we work together understanding those differences it doesn't mean Jesse's not engaged or doesn't want to work with me and excited she's gonna show that differently than I am and I think it's important to to recognize it.

SPEAKER_03 22:58

Okay okay Brandon I'm gonna throw one last question at you different from the burning questions but just want to wrap up with how do you balance awareness of your team and their motivators and all that that with self-awareness as a leader. Yeah that's a thinker how do you balance the awareness of your team with self-awareness like for leaders who are focused on this I think you know we haven't really talked about self-awareness that much we've talked about adapting to your team and being aware of their motivators but I think there's a part of it that is like self-awareness has to come into play.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

Well since everybody's thrown out a book I'll throw out a book I'm not a big reader I wish I was a big reader but emotional intelligence 2.0 when I think of awareness I think of emotional intelligence and I you know I I try really hard to encourage the people that I trust in my personal professional life to help increase my self-awareness. If there's something that I'm working on I share that I say hey if I if I do this let me know because I I you know sometimes you just need people to support you and point it out when you're trying to do that. So for instance uh when I was developing as a manager uh one of my um medical directors pointed out that she could tell when I was having parallel conversations in my head because I would break eye contact and I would kind of look over to the right and I would say I'd said well I really don't want to do that. What I need help with is if you ever see that in the middle of a conversation, please stop, point that out to me, increase my awareness so that I can help change those things. So I think the first step is being able to be open to the idea that there are things that you need to improve on and using sources like emotional intelligence 2.0 which is a self-assessment which is kind of flawed in itself because if you think you have great emotional intelligence you might answer that differently but let somebody else answer that for you right to give that to your wife give that to your best friend let them answer it as they perceive you so you have a good idea of how you're perceived versus how you perceive yourself.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

I like it I like it all right well we're getting you lots of books to think about I'd like to invite all of our listeners to read first break all the rules um what was yours uh Amy please understand me under I'll get you the author so you can include it in the notes okay Brandon's Emotional Intelligence 2.0 you're not reading okay trust and inspire I will say that my favorite is trust and inspire all right so we gave you we gave you quite a few books to to reach out to learn to to apply some of these principles but thank you all for flying with us thank you to our guest panelists on flight plan quick consults and thank you to our generous sponsor Joan Marshall at PI Midlantic if today's insights helped you climb to new heights be sure to subscribe leave a review and share this episode with your crew