EPP: Meet Erin Herle (Confidence on the mats, building your mental game)

This week I sat down with Erin Herle (www.erinherle.com). She is not only a Certified Mental Performance Consultant, but also a competitor, bjj blackbelt, cat enthusiast, and hardcore punk fan. She is so wise, ever-changing, funny, and open to share all she knows. Erin touched on the mental game of being a fighter and being authentic with who we are both on and off the mats. This is an episode is one I am going to listen to again and again. I am thrilled to share this with all of you!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hi everyone and welcome to Emily's Pajama Party. I'm your host, Emily, and I'm so glad you're here. If this is your first time, I'm so glad you decided to check out the podcast. Each week I talk to some fantastic individuals. I get to hear their story, how they got into the sport, as well as what they bring to the mats. And sometimes life beyond that is interesting how everything kind of collides and expands in the most fantastic way. So sit back and enjoy the story with me. Those that are regular listeners to the podcast know that I always add a segment on ways that I can be a better grappler. And when I re-listen to them, I love to hear the reasonings yet again and hoping it sticks in my brain yet again. So this week, focusing on slow is strategic. I am just what a surprise. I'm a spazzy bluebelt. I never graduated out of my spazzy white beltness, and here I am. But I have to remember that speed works until it does it. Sometimes I rely on my endurance to really push through and outpace the other person. But like that's not sustainable and it's not gonna work forever. And it frankly doesn't really work that well now. So what I need to remember that for the long term and getting better, good grips, good positioning, good timing, making people tired, but that's because they're like carrying your weight or they're struggling, not the fact that you're like racing circles around them. I think about the really cool, amazing women I look up to, and they're just so calm. A lot of successful women will develop a game that is just that calm, methodical, technical. And I love the phrase annoyingly patient. So this is my reminder that I need to slow down, take those breaths, and be just annoyingly patient. I feel like that's a good goal for me. One of my favorite things about this podcast is the chance to sit down and listen to some amazing stories from amazing people. If you guys ever keep track of how many times I say amazing, one, I'm gonna be totally embarrassed, but also yes, because I use it a lot. But uh there I just can't help it. These women that I talk with are just so cool. And I wish they could all be like my gym partners and real life friends. And when I sit down to talk to them, truly it feels like we're making connections and hearing their stories and resilience and grit just makes my eyes sparkle in the best way. And I got a chance because of this little podcast to sit down with Erin Hurley and talk and pick her brain and chat about all things under the sun. But I really wanted to focus on the mindset of the mindset that we need in combat sports. The mental aspect of the sport scene can be often overlooked. While physical training is crucial, your mind can significantly influence your performance. So looking online, Clay gave me the referral. He's like, You totally need to check out Erin. She's doing remarkable things. Erin highlights mental resilience is just as important as the technical skills, and often athletes face pressure during competitions. And how are they able to manage the pressure that can dictate their success? She is a powerhouse, she's confident, she knows what she's talking about, she's so bright and flexible and ever-changing. And this episode went like a good clip longer than my typical ones because I just could make it a part three and part nine and part twelve. I basically I could do it just a season talking with Erin about all these things. So here's part one. Hopefully, I'll get her back on the show one day as she talks about mindset for our combat sports. Erin, thank you so much for being on the show. I'm so glad you're here. Me too. I'm so told.

unknown 4:09

Yay!

SPEAKER_01 4:11

The background is we've been talking for like 20 minutes, but it's totally cool. Yeah, we're like friends already. This is perfect. Yeah, we built some rapport, and now we're just gonna dive right in. Yes. So, for people meeting you for the first time, how would you describe yourself? What who are you? What do you do?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

So I'm Erin Hurley, pronounced Hurley, like the skate brand. I'm a jujitsu black belt. I've been training since 2009. I did not play sports growing up, so I found jujitsu from being in hardcore music and being in moshfits and stuff, and just being in like male-dominated rooms and sweaty rooms, and I was like, this is adjacent, this sounds great. And I and I was able to like learn about it through someone else, and and I saw competitions and I found a gym, and finally, after like a year of knowing about jujitsu, it was like a year where I was like finally got the gumption to like go in and sign up, and like I had the money because I was going to school and I was working, and this was down the street from my job, and my best friend was too broke to start jujitsu. So she went with me to talk, like, hey, what do I do? You know, do I jump in? Do I do this? And so she came with me for the first day to give me the confidence, and I signed up, and they're like, Cool, your first class is like tomorrow. Like, here's this like karate giggy, basically. And when I started it, it was about three months in, and I was like hooked on jujitsu enough to sign up for my first competition, and it was like everybody was going, it was like okay, I want to be part of the club, and I went and I and I did okay. Like, I got like third, and I won my first match ever, which was awesome by submission, and so I was I was really hooked, and I found that it's so that I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD yet, but I kind of like knew, but it's all-encompassing, it's like immersive, there's a lot of engagement that it requires physical, mental, emotionally, you know, handling everything that happens in a role and sucking at something, but wanting to be good, and it just it's there's so much there. So it was like my first sport, my only sport, besides if you count like MMA and some striking, but combat sports is my only. So I moved on from high-level competition after getting my black belt. I went into MMA for a little bit, and then during the pandemic, I decided to go back to school and I got my master's in sport and performance psychology, and then I started my own practice called Train Your Mind, and then I got my certification. So I'm a certified mental performance consultant, it's a mouthful. I'm a CMPC, and so I am the highest certification for what I do that is non-clinical because that's I'm certified, I'm not licensed. So while I do cater to a lot of like therapeutic or counseling, a lot of my masters was based on those, it's not a licensure to be a therapist, counselor, psychologist, psychiatrist. And so the world that I live in now is performance-based. Mental well-being is the foundation, but allowing the clinical aspect to be referred out, and then I help with the more applied strategies for how do you bring your authentic self to a place like combat sports. And I've gone through other sports through a third-party company called Kumba. So I work with some college D3 athletes and swimming and track and golf and I have a hockey goalie. Um, but for combat sports, especially, it's just pressure. And for the most part, especially in jujitsu, and I was doing 10-minute rounds at adult black belt, you have 10 minutes straight of just constant saga, of like trying to win, trying to maintain, trying to read your opponent, trying to anticipate, trying to do all of these things and measure all of this stuff and be completely immersed in a million different ways to win or lose. So now I'm a mental performance consultant who also still trains jujitsu, still kind of competes. I was a journalist for Gracie Mack back in the day. I've had many, many chapters. I lived in Canada for a bit, I just moved back. I lived in Jersey for a bit, I've trained in multiple places, but kind of culminating of like this is where I'm at right now.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

That's a lot. That's a lot. Did you ever see your life? Well, because I could imagine, hey, I really like mosh pits. This is really fun, and we're beating this knot out of each other. Maybe I should get into a sport where we can do this, and then all of a sudden one, two, skip a few 99. Now here your life is consumed, and you're able to work with athletes and to help them in this metal. That did you ever see yourself really going in that direction before jiu-jitsu? What do you think you would have ended up doing?

SPEAKER_00 9:05

It's interesting because I actually started in college, my undergraduate was in psych. But I didn't see myself going through that whole thing because I was like, a master's degree. Like, you want me to be in school for four years after, you know, like you want me to voluntarily go to school for four more years and then start a master's program, and then be able to get licensed. And I was like, no way. And then I realized later uh when I was like 22, like, yep, you have ADHD, and that's why you've been in your undergrad program for like five years already, and you're still far from graduating. So I ended up using that diagnosis as a way to get better registration dates because I went to a public university. I went to Cal State Northridge, and so in LA. And so in my head, I was like, I'm not like it's not a disease, it's not a disorder, I'm not mentally ill, okay? I'm just wired differently, and I don't need anything because I was a gifted kid. So I go in and I hand in the paperwork, and I'm like, hey, I just need a registration date. And they're like, Oh, well, do you need to be taking tests here? Do you need other you know, like resources? It was the disabilities office, and I'm like, no, I'm not disabled, you know, like and then um yeah, so they kind of denied that diagnosis for a long time, and then it wasn't until I did my master's in an online program where I'm spending $50,000 in student loans going, I need to figure this out, how I best learn. And I ended up getting a 4.0 throughout that. And obviously there's a lot of time between 2014 when I graduated and 2021 when I started my master's, but like I had no idea that I would go that route because I found jujitsu and I was like, cool, I'm living the athlete lifestyle. I never thought I was gonna be an athlete, and then I started being an athlete, and then after that, I was like, okay, cool, I'm a journalist now because I was a creative writer and I just liked writing. And I was like, cool, I'll be, I'll be a journalist, you know, I want to be the best writer ever, and I'm gonna write narrative nonfiction. And then I also did seminars like, cool, I'm gonna be a coach, I'm gonna open my own gym. Then I was like, nah, I don't want to open my own gym, that's too many egos to manage. And so my life has been chapters in the sense of, is this it? Is this it? And so then I just keep developing myself, but it layers, right? It's being able to layer the uh skills that I learn in different areas of my life that I fully committed to, that I fully thought that I was gonna be really seeing through to fruition, basically. And so now I see, but it's like I forget who's I don't know if it's like a Tony Morrison quote, but like you can't really understand life until you see it backwards.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

That's powerful. Because what a what a journey you went on to get there.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah, and it's not over. Just like it's like life just keeps going. So, like, I'm actually in a point of change in life. So I moved back from Canada going through a divorce. I thought that I was gonna be living my days out as a Canadian. I had permanent residency, and now I'm back in California with my mom. So it's just been this focus of like, what next? Is it a PhD program? Is it, you know, just doing this and training in LA again? Or I don't really know, and I'm kind of like open to it, and I think it's that mindset that allows me to see, okay, like I want to self-actualize. So if I have the capacity or capability to do something, then I should probably see it through. And if family life and Canada life was not in the stars, and that's what it is, it's like, well, at least I know. At least I know because I opened that door, I walked through that door, I tried to stay, and then and they're like, bruh, life was like, you gotta go. There's nothing for you here. There's nothing for you here. It's somewhere else. I don't know what it is, I don't know where it is, but it's not here. So that's kind of the way that I've lived my life of going and moving on into something else.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Well and how freeing and how scary. Like we can look at something. I had a mentor talk to me once about the phrase like sour. If we don't like something, it's sour. If we do like it, it's tart. We can look at the same situation just as a situation, but we decide if it's a good one or a bad one, and we can run with it. And we can say, gosh, I was knocked down from this, gosh, I was knocked down this for this, and now here I am. Or I had a situation and I grew and had another one and I grew. Did you know I can grow again? I might grow 50 more clock. I'm not.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Can I stop growing, please? Like, you know, like I only hit five, four. And you know, we're not gonna be taller than that. But as far as grit and life experience and competence, it's like that's ever growing. And even if I wanted to stop, it's like life doesn't, it doesn't let me. It keeps popping up with these opportunities that are like, no, like you gotta take this opportunity and you've you gotta chase that dream, that thing, that itch. You gotta go scratch it. If it's in another country, if it's in another person, if it's in another career, if it's in another whatever, right? Like, I'm so open to it because I think that, you know, this is like just basic Maslow's hierarchy of needs that like leads to like what does my talent and my my biology and my DNA allot me? And then what can I do that in terms of nurture? What can I do in terms of building and growing and making something that wasn't there before? And I think that's the biggest thing. So now in my role as a coach, as a consultant, I'm helping people bring that out because a lot of the times we're so internalizing of our influences, of our coaches, of our parents, of status quo, and I've always felt like I needed to go against the status quo. I mean, like you have tattoos on your hand. I'm gonna say that you probably are the same. That's like, you know, I really want to do this thing, and society says, no, you're this, you can't do that, you're not supposed to do this, right? So it's like I've always felt the need to go against that and follow my authentic self, whatever that means. And so it's like you're constantly defining this thing called authenticity. And what does that mean to actually show up as yourself if you don't know yourself? Or if yourself is made up of the emo song that you listened to when you were 15, mixed with the rom-com that like just sticks with you. Sweet Home Alabama is mine. I mean, there's a bunch, but like you know, and like this pre-internet millennial generation as well of being on the internet, and then before that, having to just remember movie quotes, and now my brain still remembers movie quotes, like it's cool, and they just keep coming out, and so that's how I make analogies. And I work with a lot of like 20-year-olds, and I'm like, you know that movie, and they're like, No, no, I've never heard of it, and I'm like, You've never seen mean girls, what do you mean? You know, so yeah, it's a lot about growth and and being able to yeah, continue and and not listen to status quo and and all those things.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

I relate so much to that, and I feel like there's so many parallels with jujitsu with the life piece. Like, I did everything I thought first I looked the right way. I dated for intention, I found someone young, I come here, you get the house, you get the thing, you get the thing. It's supposed to, if I did everything by the book, it should have worked out for me. Then you're like, it did not. And so now when you're like on round two or round four or 17, you're like, it doesn't necessarily go A, B, C, D. How is it gonna look? And if I make a jujitsu parallel, I pulled the arm, I tucked the leg, I moved my hip, I flipped over. Why didn't this 300 pound pound person roll over? I did it right. Yes, and that's not always you can do everything right and still not succeed.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Stop! That's what I say all the time to people because I talk about competence, right? And the self-actualization, and there's two kind of things that we can arrive at, and I I've arrived at both very strongly. It's like I did everything I could, I did everything that I was told, I went to the best gyms, I had the best coaches in my corner, I cut the weight, I did this, I did this, this, and it still wasn't good enough. And it's I did all that. Am I reaching this like limit where it's like no matter what I do, it could just be taken from me. No matter what I do, it could just be gone. And it's like life is like yes, and I very much feel like like uh in a the Lion King, and it's like remember who you are. Like, that's kind of where I've gone with losing my identity and all of these like medals and accomplishments and who I train under, and trying to like prove that I'm worth anything through my ability to be good at jujitsu. Because I think that also this is like a little bit of a side quest, but the culture is like, well, as long as you're good at jujitsu, you can get away with anything. If you're good at jujitsu, you can have whatever you want, you can get on all the podcasts, you can get whatever student you want, you do whatever, you know, you can say whatever you want, and you will not be penalized or have to face accountability for your actions because you're good at jujitsu. And so I don't know if that was the poll to be like, well, no one's gonna be on my case about anything if I just win stuff, you know? There no one's gonna question my process if I'm winning, you know, and it's like that meme of like the dad that comes in, it's like the drawing, it's like, are you winning, son? And like that is what's going on, that was going on in my head at all times. It was like, hey, I had a really good cut. Okay, but like, did you win? Oh, but like I had oh man, I finally pulled off that one move that I've been working so hard on. But did you win? Oh, I was locked in this triangle and I got out of that triangle. You know how hard that is? Like, man, triangle, it was locked up and I got through it. Yeah, but did you win? And so a lot of the outcome orientation is huge, especially with like getting the next belt, getting some stripes, getting recognition. And so it's so it becomes so external. And then my internal, like I already talked about, was like, we gotta do it this way, you know, and then everyone's like, don't do it that way. Don't don't do it that way. And I was like, but I I want to do it this way, and they're like, but that's not the right way. That's not how you do it. You're not doing it right, you're not doing it enough, you're not doing enough, and it was like constant chasing, so that when I lost, I'm like, but I did everything that they told me to do, and I and I and I did the A B C D and I didn't move forward until I had the underhook, and I and it still just like didn't work out. I did not make the right decisions, I didn't have the energy, I did whatever it was that I could blame it on. And so when you think about you can do everything and still not win, and you can win and still not do everything. So like I won a O-Gi world title at Brown, and the main girls weren't there. I had two matches. The girl that I submitted, and I submitted them both, but the girl that I submitted in the final with a wrist lock had already hurt her arm because she was armbarred in the previous match. There were only like four or five of us in the division. It was brown belt and it was no gi. Right? So, like the the elitist in me was like, uh-huh. Yeah, so it's like nothing. It's like, okay, cool, yeah, you did it, but like definitely don't brag about it. Definitely don't talk about it like you're an actual world champion because it wasn't in the ghee and it wasn't black belt, right? And so when we minimize, we minimize, and we minimize, it's like, how can I constantly think like I did enough or that I'm competent enough or that I am enough as a human being, or that I have value and that I have worth when all of my worth comes from medals and you know, being on like seminar posters and like all of the outward stuff. So, like, that's why the authenticity thread is so strong because. Authenticity is not like I merged to the beat of my own drum. I don't care. I gotta do it my own way. I have purple hair. It's not. Some people do have purple hair, but it's it's an expression and it's being able to read your own body. And what's something that people that are like bringing it to science is interoception. Do you know interoception? We know proprioception, right? Like your body in space. Do you know of interoception? Have you heard that word before?

SPEAKER_01 22:27

No, but it sounds terrifying. Right. I don't want to feel my feels because then I'm responsible for when I don't do them right. So I'm just gonna let everybody else tell me what to do, and I'm gonna miss my period, and it's gonna be fine, and I'm gonna overtrain and I'm gonna be exhausted. But I suffer from imposter syndrome, so I don't possibly know what could be best for me. I don't know if you could possibly be thinking like all the arrows point to me. Right?

SPEAKER_00 22:56

You get it. You're one of my people, obviously. But introsception is the ability to read what is happening in your body, and so the basic, just the basics are when you're hungry, when you're thirsty, and being potty trained, right? What's the and I know this because my my friend has a year and a half old, but she's like getting to the point where she's starting to think about, you know, potty training as she gets older. And it's like, well, what is the sign? It's the sign is when they can tell you that they have to go, right? That's like the first thing. If they say, like, hey, I have to poop or I have to whatever, and it's like, okay, cool, like, because that's the first sign of knowing when to go to the bathroom. And it sounds so minor, but yet as human beings, we have to we can't just poop everywhere, you know? Like there's like a socially constructed way that we have to get rid of our waste, right? I don't know why the conversation went so into this, but I'm headed, I'm headed there. So being able to condition yourself to meet those needs, you have to be able to read it and then act on it. And when we're in a state of performance, of heightened awareness, of arousal, of activation, it can be really hard to remember to meet our own needs. Right? Like it's so easy if you're in if you're in a meeting and you're like, no, no, no, like I'll I'm not gonna I don't want to interrupt, like I really have to pee, but like I'll I'll wait till after. Or man, I'm so parched. I wish I had some water, but like I'll get it later. Or, you know, we we put those things off um for the sake of other tasks or focus. And and so it's like, how do I be authentic if I'm not even able to read what I need, if I can't take inventory? Like John Danaher recently had a uh a clip come out that was like, he he said, like, I don't give a damn what my athletes feel. What I care about is whether they can pull the trigger, whether they can decide and act, right? And I'm like, my guy, like you're such an avoidant. You're such an avoidant. You think you think that someone cannot know or ignore or suppress, and yes, they can, but it doesn't serve their mental well-being, it doesn't serve their physical well-being. I can hold my pee in. I can. I can do it for a really long time, okay? Like sitting in traffic, like you learn that, right? But like it doesn't mean that it's good for me. And over time, I'm going to develop UTIs, you know, like there is a consequence, and so like I'm always thinking about authenticity as meeting your own needs, not just I have to have purple hair. So it's self-expression, but it's the ability to understand what you need and how to work from there. Because so many times we're like, I just have to get to my peak performance, my optimal, my optimal feeling or my optimal mindset. And it's like, well, how do you get there if things are not going your way? How do you get there if you wake up sick? How do you get there if you had to take a different way to the venue and now you're late, you don't know if you can do your warm-up? Like, there are so many things that can and will go wrong. So in a perfect world, yeah, peak, apex, all these like, you know, words that people use to describe their businesses, um, of like peak performance and all that, elite performance, it's like the highest, the upper echelon, the elite, right? And it's like, but it, but an apex or a pinnacle or all these words are at the top, and it requires one brief moment. And I'm like, I don't believe that. Because as someone in a sport who had no control over anything ever, you know, like at all, I can't control when I go, who my ref is, how they interpret the rules. They can't even control my opponent. So, how am I expected to like be able to make things happen when there's so many things that are in the way? So it's basically saying, where am I? What am I? What what what is happening in my body and how am I going to use it? So it's seeing that I can take what I have and I can work with it. And so true confidence is not I have a plan for absolutely everything. It's I'll figure it out. I don't know what I'll need. I don't know if I'm a plumber, if I'm, I don't know, uh a doctor, uh a surgeon. There was a time when I my ex had a meniscus issue and he was gonna have to get surgery, and they weren't really sure the extent of it. But when they said that if they remove it entirely, then it's only about like five months of recovery, versus if they repair it, it's like nine months. And so I remember being like, Can you just take it out? And he was so mad because it's like, okay, it's really what the client needs, right? Uh, the patient. And he was like, We'll see when we get in there. And how many times have you heard that? Like, we'll see when we get in. We don't know. I watched so many vet shows, they don't know what's in there. They could do the x-rays, they could do the ultrasounds, but they do not know. The same thing is when you go to the store and you're like, Man, I don't know if this is gonna look good on me. And it may look really ugly on the mannequin or the rack, or it may look really cute, and then you try it on and you're like, I look like a buff person in a tutu. Like, you know, there's certain things that you don't know until you try it on, and so true confidence ends up being I don't know what my opponent is gonna give me, but I have enough resources to figure it out in the moment. I don't know exactly. I cannot strategize to a T. I do not know where she's gonna grip me. Even if she's done it a million times before, I have to be ready for anything.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

I think there's so many connections and so many ahas and some things I I can't even necessarily relate to it because it sounds so different than what, like, as an over-planner, as an overthinker, as a people pleaser, if I can just make those around me, if I can put myself in a box or in a shape and moldable, chameleon my way into a situation that people will like me because I know how to read their body signs. And I'm like, ah, this is what I can do to fit in this time and not be my true self because that's scary, and who's gonna want to be around that? And the more I make myself mold into the space, the more I'm valued, the more I'll be kept around. And it's saying I understand what my body is capable of, I understand my body is flexible, both in thought, physicality, whatever, to survive a situation. And I think a huge part of my training, and I'm so such a beginner. I go to class and I'm like the larva that everybody's showing how to work, which is like the most beautiful thing is a teacher. But I'm not just moving moves, I'm learning concepts and like it's like a weight, like a shift thing. I'm not learning the specific move. It's the more idea, like what do I notice, and what do I do with that?

SPEAKER_00 30:07

It's funny that you use certain words that I use a lot in my practice, which is notice, right? And and like notice, notice this, notice that. And it's like, okay, cool, but what do you want me to do with that information? And it's like nothing. I know it's hard. Do nothing with that information when that thought comes into your head, oh no, what if I'm not good enough? You don't go down that rabbit hole. You listen to me, Linda. Listen, do not, do not go down that rabbit hole. It's a it's a slippery slope, man. So noticing is great. But for people who are high achieving and have high sensitivities, like yourself and myself, and the people pleasing, and the self-presentation and the impression management and all these other things, how do we be authentic when all of these things are in the way? Like, how? How does that make sense? How do I notice something and let it go? Well, that's mindfulness, and that's why there are so many therapeutic modalities that are like mindfulness-based. And mindfulness is one of the practices that came together for Stephen Hayes, who created acceptance and commitment therapy, which is an offshooter, they think they call it like a third generation of uh of um CBT. Because CBT was like, we have this thought, it's not working for us, let's replace it with something else. And then you realize that it feels inauthentic. Just because I tell myself, you got this, doesn't mean I'm going to believe it. And so being able to be authentic and also change your thoughts and how they work, Stephen was like, okay, but what if we take this Buddhist idea of like let it be? It is what it is, it is what it is, my guy. And I can't stand when people say that because I'm like, I gotta make things happen. What do you mean good things happen to those who wait? No, good things happen to those who go out and grab it, you know? Like, you have to chase what you want, you have to, you know. So sitting back and not chasing everything that moves, squirrel, squirrel, squirrel, is hard for ADHD. It's hard for people who are chronically type A overthinkers, planners, anxiety-ridden people who are like, but really, what is the parking situation before I go there? I need to know because I'm gonna ditch my car in the middle of the street and it's not gonna be good for anybody, right? Like, I think when you talk about authenticity and self-presentation, those are such tied in things. So noticing is being able to watch a thought go down the river on a leaf, or watching it blow away like a cloud, or like the plume of smoke outside my window yesterday. The wildfires. Like being able to not go down that path. So, this is what I give people, I prescribe them, is a Winnie the Pooh game, and it's a clip from Christopher Robin's movie, and he's on this train and he has to occupy himself, and so he looks out the train window and he's like, you know, dog, person, house, and he's like, What are you doing? He's like, I'm doing the say what you see game, and be it's obviously easier when you're on a train because things are whizzing by that fast, but the ability to look at something and not have a metacognition or meta-emotion about it, to not get triggered by it, to not follow it, to notice it. So I tell people when they get to a venue, if they're a swimmer, if they're track, if they are jujitsu, they're MMA, to go to that venue where you will be and actually walk around and name things. Name them without too much specificity, name them without adding any commentary or letting your brain be associative. And so that's what that way you get acclimated to the space, like okay, there's the bullpen, there's the bathroom, there's this, there's that. But also you're in a more open, fluid space. Because the only way that you can be good at something as transactional and complex and dynamic as combat sports is to be fully present. To be present is to be able to notice things without attaching yourself to them. So that's the deeper work that happens when someone works with me, which is what I mean by it goes into the therapy because I'm using therapy modalities and techniques, right? So acceptance and commitment is like, look, I'm gonna choose my values, and those are gonna be the concepts with which that I choose my life. My moral principles, my moral compass, those are the things that help me decide to decision the decisions that I need to make. But in jujitsu, I think jujitsu is more like driving in New Jersey. I don't know if you've ever driven in New Jersey, in LA and California on the freeways, which you're aware of. You go down the freeway and they're like, hey, this exit's coming up. And you're like, cool, cool, cool, cool. And they're like, hey, it's coming up. Hey, it's like right there. Okay, you really need to get over because this is the lane to be in. Okay, here's your exit, right? And then New Jersey is like, oh, you missed your exit. Oh, here's a fork, here's another fork, and another fork, and another fork. And you're like, you have to make all these decisions because the pressure of having someone behind you possibly rear-end you or honk at you to be like, you know, where are you going? Figure it out. So that's your opponent in jujitsu, or you know, even in your own mind, can be your own opponent, live the war within. But being able to make decisions in the present moment is being able to take that information in your head. Oh, that's a triangle. Okay, cool. I'm gonna step back. Okay, I'm gonna do Toyondo. Okay, Toronto's not working because she got this, this, and it's problem solving. But if we have these meta emotions and meta cognitions attached to what we are thinking and seeing, oh no, I lost, I lost the last match that way. Oh no, triangles, oh my god, she's so good at triangles. Oh no, she's getting me. When I thought be a uh Mosquita who's really good at clothes guard, you get her clothes guard, and all I could think about was, well man, this has been really, really hard so far. This is like my breather. She's fixing her hair, she's doing whatever, and I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, I am in her wheelhouse. This is like she's already you know, outshone me in every other position that we've been in. And now she's also got me in her in casa, like at home, you know. And so if I have that in front of me, like I'm not gonna be able to figure out. I didn't figure out by the way, I never figured out what it was. I definitely lost that match. But if you let your fears and your past and the future get in the way of trying to problem solve in the moment and figure it out, like true confidence, being authentic, meeting your needs, being like, damn, I really don't like that armor on my neck. Probably gonna have to deal with it, you know? So do you see like yeah, how that goes? I'm like putting it through the case.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

I have like I'm like keeping like a I'll say roll the decks in my head because of all the ideas, and I'm old. Like so many connections. Like one I love, Esther Perel had a talk, she did a podcast with um Huberman, and the line that caught me at the very beginning, I must have listened to the interview three, four times. It's um curiosity is active engagement in the unknown. And that's like I my eyes go shiny when I hear people talk about things that are really passionate about. I don't care what it is, it could be about like clownfish, it could be about origami, whatever it is, if someone's really excited and like just watching that come out, and I might not know anything about it, but I'm like, pull me in. So I love that like that piece to it. And that was one piece. There's another book, there's a book called Um The Tao like Tao, like Eastern Religion. I don't know if you've heard it before, but there's a I read it in high school, and it the line goes, The more it snows tiddly palm, the more it goes, tiddly palm, the more it snows on snowing. Like it's the idea that it just is, and so it reminds me, I'm like, hey, just like that. I think so. Time we're so removed from society, whether here or like here, or do we I just did two things that neither my podcast people can hear, like on my phone or have headphones or watching TV or whatever, that we are looking for deeply understanding something and picking apart just the nuances of my microphone because I need to observe more and be more present. And so the idea of noticing, but without the hyper focus is very different than what society's pushing now because we have been so removed in this teensy little thing that's taking all of our attention. They're like, turn it to something else to get your attention, but in now in such a different way, because that led me to my next idea, which is do you struggle? No, struggle. Is it more challenging to work with a headcase at any level, or is it harder to work with like a white belt, blue belt versus an upper belt? Because I think there are threads of me that will continue on as I grow and learn. So sometimes to chill people that are not the headcase that I am at what white and blue belt might be easier to work with. But right now, my headcase at blue and white belts is like my biggest hindrance because I'm like, ah, everything's on fire. I can't pick the one because everything's competing for me at once. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Yeah. I would say like I don't look at it as easy because the easy client is the one who's engaged with the work, who's bought in, right? Who's willing to try new things. So a higher belt may be so ingrained into what they already do and their rituals and maybe even superstitions that it can be hard to divorce from that. Now, when you think about like someone who's new and they're like a sponge, right? The white belt mentality, this is something that people are like, Well, yeah, I'm hungry to learn. There's so much to learn. So I would say that the level is like, it doesn't really matter. Obviously, it's easier for the applied route, because if I say, okay, how are we going to practice this? You know, the people who have been on the mats for so many times for so many years, or have been in a lot of high-level situations, they just have more wisdom and experiences to go off of. They have more self-efficacy because they can say, I've been here before. So when I say, How do you do in this situation? How do you do in that situation? Like the more that you could say, Oh yeah, I I I acted this way, or I thought this, or I felt I felt this way, versus the people that haven't. But there's always life experience that can be adjacent. So that's what I'll pull from. Like they're an executive, or if they're like a therapist, or if they're, you know, like I try to bring in and meet them where they're at. So the I meet someone where they're at, so that doesn't really it's just if they're in if they're engaged in and doing the work and trying the interventions. But I would say that the hardest is the people who intellectualize. And what I mean by that is they get it, they get everything I'm saying, they understand, they're with me, but like nothing's actually changing. Nothing's changing, and it's they're living in their head, and so what happens is uh more somatic work needs to happen because and I'm actually working on this with a judo 18-year-old and a oh as well as a teen wrestler, and we talk about judging versus sensing and feeling. So if like like hand-eye coordination, not good for me, not great. Um, I picked up video games, which once once you've like become one with your controller, it's like it's easier. But as you're like circuiting that stuff, so I've only been playing that for like two years, maybe. But uh like baseball, basketball, just whatever I do, it never f golf, it never does the thing I want it to. So I am very much like, let me get my hands on it and just sort of like wrestle it and just you know, I'm more of a feeler and a sensor than I am someone who can be boop beep boop bee boop my way through things. I will still try to be boo-bee boop my way through things. I mean, I'm also with intellect, but like when it comes down to it, I'm not even creating words for what I'm feeling. If I push, it's not in my head, I'm going, I will now push, and they will push back, and then I, you know, it's like not, it's not like a robotic thing. It's like, cool, I'm gonna push, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna feel it. If I feel that, we're gonna continue going that way. If I feel you have tension, I might try to go against that tension and then release that tension to see what happens. And that's that curiosity piece that really is a thread in a lot of different people's theoretical orientations. But having that curiosity of like, no, I don't know what's gonna happen. I'm not gonna assume this isn't going to work. So the intellectualizing is like, well, that one day I did this thing and it worked. And so we should try it here. And it's like while you're thinking of That the person's already ankle locked you. Like you didn't even get to start your game. And so sometimes you can say, Okay, have an opening sequence, have an idea of what you want to accomplish, where you want to get. Do you want to pull guard? Do you want to have them pull guard? Do you want to stay standing? You want to go for judo? What are we gonna do? Having that opening, but the rest is like you figure it out, you're gonna figure it out, and you cannot overthink your way through it. So, like when I first started, it was okay, yeah, if then, mind mapping, okay, when I'm in this territory, or even schema theory of like I picture a Spongebob episode where he's like trying to remember someone's name and he's like going into the file folders, like the file cabinets of his brain, and he's trying to find it. And it's like we don't have time to go like, okay, where's my half-guard folder? No, no, no, not in the bottom half, top half, top half, okay, top half. Take that out. Okay, what do I know from here? You know, it just we cannot. It just doesn't work that way. There's so much information that we are taking in, and so it's more about sensing and feeling. The same way with competence, competence is a basic psychological need. If I tell you, if you come to my seminar and we're doing Spider Guard and your uh hips are really high and you're able to switch from side to side, I'm gonna come over there and I'm gonna be like, this looks great. Now, when when I walk away, you could turn to your partner and be like, she's just saying that. She's just saying that because I I paid for her seminar and she's like, you know, being paid to like say that. Or, you know, oh, she was just being nice, or she didn't see that like I can't actually do it in a role. She's just it's fine, I can only do it in like the minimizing, right? If I don't take that and put it in my damn pocket, then what all what other proof do do I need? Like, I'm someone who is really good at Spider Guard. I know that I've used it at the highest level, it's worked at the highest level, and now I'm passing it on to you, and now I'm telling you that you have what it takes, and you're like, nah, nah nah. And yet, this is competent just like laying around that we're just not putting in our pocket, and I think that's ridiculous. I think it's ridiculous. So obviously, we need to censor and filter the type of feedback that we're getting. But if there's an authority figure, someone who's really good at something, or someone who's invested in you, and you still don't believe them and you cannot internalize it, like that's that's where it gets hard. That's where it's hard to work with someone. And I have, I've broken through a lot with a lot of people who are very smart, a lot of engineers. A lot of engineers live in their head. Uh shocking, I know. And so they always find me and they're like, I just can't, like, I could do it, I know it, I have the all the knowledge. But when it comes down to that role or that specific situation, or I'm actually on the mat, it's like I just can't do it. It's like you're getting in your own way. And sometimes the the noise, the internal noise that's happening is not actually whether you can do it or overthinking of what you should do. It's sometimes like I don't want to look dumb. So, like, we don't we hold our breath when we do things because we don't want to show that we're like actually, you know, huffing and puffing, right? That doesn't serve us, that doesn't meet my needs. I need, I need oxygen, I need to get the carbon monoxide or dioxide out of my out of my system, like to be able to keep doing this hard physical thing, and yet I'm worried about what this person is gonna think about me as they try to choke me. So oftentimes the people that live in their head are the ones that are just preoccupied. So you could be preoccupied with many, many things. It could also be an inability, like interoception, to read the signs from your body. I'm hypermobile. I get in an arm bar and I'm like, feels like a stretch. And then my arm breaks, and I'm like, darn, yeah, probably should have tapped sooner. But like, I don't have the feel for it, you know. So the internal noise is like, are you capable of noticing it? Are you capable of not going down that rabbit hole? Are you capable of changing the direction and knowing what works for you? Maybe it's music, maybe it's a certain song and dance, and maybe it's a per a person, maybe it's a video that you watch, maybe it's a book that you read, maybe it's a quote that you remember, something that anchors you and latches you onto that, so that no matter what tournament you're at, whatever situation you're in, who you're going against, what time zone you're in, whatever, what support system is around you, you have something that is generally reliable and flexible to help you in that moment. Because really, when you say I've got this, if you can't list the things that you've got, I've got strong grips, I've got focus, I've got my coach, I've got, you know, all of these things. I I've got belonging. I know people that actually care about me and they don't care whether I win or lose. That's not that's not what's on the table here right now. That's not on trial. So being able to clear out the noise is one of the easiest things, but the hardest things for people who live in their head.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

I think it would be interesting. I've heard it time and time again. Like the woman that goes into labor that's typically like super chill, she's not gonna be the one that starts like cussing everybody out on the um labor and delivery table, like out of nowhere. Like we follow trends in our behavior. The way, even though I might try on different skins different places, like I think who I am is a teacher, there's similarities who I am as a friend, as I am on the jujitsu mat. I'm curious how many of your clients that you work with, it's like this isn't anything personal. Are we talking about jujitsu anymore? Because I can feel so much of that. Like that could just be even like a breakdown. Or are these thoughts my own? What are they telling me? Why am I feeling like this? What do I notice around me that might be causing me to feel like this? What are those safe things I can lean on when I can't really trust my head to be telling me the nice things? Yeah. And just building that. I can imagine people going in with one intention. They're like, I really need help with my competition. And they're like, holy smokes, this is actually my whole life that we're talking about here.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

Yeah. And that's that's that competence line and the ethical line that I walk. So, like most people that I work with have either worked with the therapist in the past and they have coping mechanisms and they kind of had that inner work done of like, I know why I tick, kind of thing. So if they've done the work, that makes it a lot easier. Now, if sometimes it's like they're working with their therapist while they're working with me. And an interdisciplinary approach would be where I have a therapist that I work alongside, and we share, you know, obviously with the the consent and under you know, confidentiality and whatnot. And like being able to talk within that. So being embedded, I'm I'm in a judo approach, uh judo program. It's Masters of Social Good, and they're developing some judo Olympians, we hope. So I'm signing on for this, you know, two-year program, and we're gonna do we're doing research on what it's like. And so I talk to the coach, I talk to the nutritionists, I talk to the strength and conditioning coaches, I know what's going on, I talk to the parents of the people, right? Like I'm actually aware of the of the different layers. But for most of my clients, especially who are adults, they have their life and I only see them for this little part, and so I don't know what they talk about with their therapists, and I don't need to know, but sometimes they do share and say, yes, this does align with something that my therapist is working on with me, or something that I learned in therapy. Now, my job, besides being a mandated reporter of you know, child abuse and and whatnot, which you are too, being a teacher, I am required to refer someone out to say, this is deeper, and it's ethically, I'm not going to abandon you and be like, you know what, I can't help you, because that would be worse, right? And do no harm to to the client or the patient. So it would be beneficial for that person to also seek out the therapy. And what's really interesting is it's almost like a Cartesian approach, the dual dual approach of like mind versus body in the Western, you know, research and stuff that it's like, no, it's like the mind and the body are different, and then in the the eastern Buddhist, all that, like, yes, no, that's it's the vagus nerve, it's all connected, right? It's one. So it's like people kind of separate that sometimes, and they should. There's people in the camp that say, I'm I'm a clinical therapist and I'm a mental performance consultant. So I can work with the person who has depression and also is striving to win a tournament. Whereas the my master's program was on this camp of saying, no, those are dual relationships and it's not ethically sound to be both, to be both the therapist and the person in the performance domain. So I didn't go clinical for that reason. I thought, well, if I can keep it in performance, I I dabble, I care if my 16-year-old just broke up with his girlfriend. He didn't tell me, and I was like, hello, like that matters, that's going to affect you, you know. Like, I don't cry. I I but because like I say, like I walk that line. So sometimes, yeah, we go into, hey, I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was a kid, da-da-da-da. And I'm like, okay, cool. They're like, I'm on this meds, and I'm like, cool, I don't need to really know that, but that's fine. Like, because I don't work with diagnoses, I don't work with medications, right? Now, if I do want to go the counseling route and be able to kind of go the clinical route, then I will and I'll go get this ID that I've been kind of thinking about. But I wouldn't be able to necessarily work with that person in two different capacities. Does that answer your question a little bit? Because it definitely opens up a lot of doors, even though I might be asking you, like, hey, how did you deal with that loss? And you're like, Well, actually, yeah, the first loss that I dealt with was my dad. You know? And it's like, that's very possible that those are very linked, and the way that you're gonna react to that grief is the same.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

The line that popped into my head as you're talking, one, it's about your own path, but also with all this, it's like the infomercial, but wait, there's more.

unknown 54:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

Yes, there's everything is a layer to a layer, and I feel like one, that's like your own journey, but wait, there's more. We're just gonna keep popping in every six months to find out where Erin is, where in the world is Erin.

SPEAKER_00 54:59

It's honestly what has happened because it was like, you know, oh, she's here now. Oh, she's in LA and she's training at Cobrina. No, first it was like trained at Hamilos, and then I was like, oh no, she's training with Cobrina now. Oh no, she met a guy in New Jersey and moved out there, and now she's training with Marcella Garcia. Okay, cool, that's sick. Now she's working for Gracie Mag and she's doing journalism. Okay, cool. She's a journalist now. Oh, wait, no, no, now she's rising up at the competitions and she's really, really focused on that. Oh, wait, now she's doing seminars and she's coaching. I wonder if she's gonna open up her gym. Oh my god, she followed another guy to another place? Wow, now she's in Canada? That's crazy. She totally disappeared. What? She got a master's degree? I didn't know she was smart. It goes on, man. Like, I'm just like, like, I feel like at this point I am waiting for something, like I look for omens of like, does it, you know, do I follow this path? Do I follow that path? Like, I am not someone who is satisfied with where I'm at. Like, I've learned gratitude, I've learned it the hard way because things can be taken from you overnight. But being able to say, like, I like where I'm at, and and that's that improv that you were talking about before, before we started recording, which was, you know, the yes and approach. And that's something that I've actually worked with in terms of even humor and lightheartedness. So that's why I make a lot of jokes with which with you know, which I it it helps me cope, you know. But also it's like, man, we need to be able to share and have belonging. And what is laughing, if not that shared bond, you know, and like being able to laugh at yourself, being able to laugh at things. So the yes and approach is yeah, yeah, I'm noticing I'm noticing I'm nervous. And I'm gonna beat the shit out of that chick. I'm noticing that I have not won a tournament in three years. And I'm gonna try my new guillotine. You know, like it's it's in the match, but it's also outside of it. It's saying yes, and I keep moving. Yeah, that happened. That is happening, that is the state of the world right now, and like I make the joke all the time, like, in this economy, you know, and and it's like it just works for absolutely everything because we're we're all screwed. But the like being able to say, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do it scared, and I'm gonna do it ferociously, and I'm gonna do it like a feral cat. And you know, and I used to think the word butt was great, and my mentor who I did my CMPC hours under, she was like, Yeah, but like if you say I love you, but doesn't it take away from it? And I'm like, you right, you right. I still wasn't fully bought in, and so I was like, no, I like it because if you have an unproductive thought, you can notice it, and then you can wipe it away like it never existed and replace it with something else, you know? And I tried to do that with one of my clients. I sat there with a worksheet and I said we're in person, and I said, Okay, so you had this thought, that's no good. No, we do something else, you know. And I'm like, who am I to tell you that a thought is not good for you? Who am I to dictate? Who am I to play God and be like, you know what? You can't think that. You shouldn't think that way.

SPEAKER_01 58:33

I always say, and I'll go to my children and I can like sit and I'm like, I love you, and if you do this thing again, I'm going to chuck it out the door. Like, I can I can hold both. I can love you and I can be frustrated at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Yes, yes. I yes, exactly. And I've I've proven that to myself time and time again. I can want to ship my pants in the bullpen and still win. I can have depression and still do things, I can have anxiety and I can carry on regardless. I actually have a tattoo on my arm, it's a poppy, and it I have it with one of my best friends uh from Toronto and just carry on regardless. And old me would have been like, that sounds so insensitive. That's like saying work harder, no one cares. And I'm like, no, not at all. Because the world keeps moving, earth keeps going, it keeps rotating, things keep happening, and you can be sad about it, and you can be happy about it, and you can be angry about it, surprise, and you still have to do the thing. So going back to what Danaher was saying, that he doesn't care whether it's at what they're feeling. It's like, no, you should know what you're feeling and do it anyways. That is brave, right? It's easy to do.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

One of my favorite lines. It's like what I think I've heard it a couple different times, but I've seen it like in my little people. I say, um, Brad, um, being brave isn't the absence of fear or a scare, it's being scared but doing it anyway. Like that's true bravery. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:10

Absolutely. You think that like nobody felt these things before and didn't accomplish anything? Be you know, like I think it also has to do with the four-minute mile, right? No one thought that anyone could do it because it hadn't been done before, and then all of a sudden one guy does it, and then like four more other people do it, and he's like, What? Like it was hard, and it really is that like limiting belief aspect, and and so we, you know, there's some people that think that checking your emotions is the enemy. I think checking my bank account is the enemy. I think that's awful. I don't like checking my bank account. I like spending, I like going to Starbucks and paying $8 for a latte, knowing how horrendous that is. I understand. But I like I like to do that. And in order for me to be able to do that, I need to know what I'm working with. So it's okay to check in with yourself. It's it's mandatory. What are the resources I have? Don't gaslight me. I don't want to gaslight myself, saying you've got this, you know. No, I'm gonna say this is gonna be really hard. That guy's really good. You're gonna have to have a lot of energy in there, you're gonna have to make decisions fast, you're gonna have to posture, you're gonna have to keep yourself in the game. And it's like, cool. I can do that while I feel whatever I feel, while I have my tummy ache, while I have whatever is in my stomach, whatever sleep I had that night before. I can't change those things. I can't. But it's not like I have to see, I have to go full on, like, well, if I can't change anything, then I don't want to know. Because that's what that sounds like to me. That's what that sounds like. Well, if I can't do anything about it, then I can't, then I don't want to know.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:08

I um there's a book called Stephen Magnus wrote Do Hard Things. And so it talks a lot about uh ultra running just lends itself. I that was like my first real push passion. I've done that for many, many years. And it doesn't get easier, it's never gonna be like mile 80. Wow, I feel refreshed so much better than 20. Like it's not gonna happen, but it's like that I what I noticed and it's not probably won't get worse, but I can't just be like, it's fine. My left leg, it's fine. It doesn't matter it's gonna fall off, it's fine. Like, I it's well, what can I what can I do moving forward? And maybe even my skill of what I have. Like, this is me, this is the best prep I've done. Yes, I'm scared. What do I notice? How worn does that other person's belt look?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:57

And how many stripes stripes are on her belt? When I my first tournament, my first match I ever I ever did, and I won it. The girl had three stripes on her belt, and she was a mom, and she came over to me and said, My makeup's gonna get on your ghee, but it washes out. Yeah. And I was like, Okay, I was so scared. What did you what did you get her with? Armbar. Yeah, like I passed in a mount, and then I remember doing an Americana wrong because like I'd been training for three months. I was just like, that's something around around there. And then I ended up getting uh an armbar from Mount where I was like, you know, trying to like finagle it and like really find the tension and get it. Yeah, that was fun. That was fun. And then I and then the next one I went for a takedown, and she got on my back and choked me right away that her forearm was in my mouth, like it was in there. It was like oh, you know, and I was just like, oh my god, that is awful. Get me out of here. I'm never doing this again, and then and then I made it my life. And I was like, wow, that was weird. Let's do it again, you know, after I got to like process it a little more.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:08

I don't know how many like mat burns I get on my face, and I'm like, what was after every classic wall? Two on my hand right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

Literally, like it's insane what we what we do. But I mean, when I when I work with someone in another another sport, like it's still they have their own insane things that that they do, you know? And I think that like when you find your own way of doing insane things while staying relatively sane, but being able to explore that competitiveness and explore that area that like your performance or your job or your sport gives you, like you learn so much about yourself. When I put myself in this situation, wow, this is that that's what that was.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:59

You know, I have a what my phrase tattoo is Dean Carnassus, he's known as like the marathon man and whatever. It's I realize it can come from such a place of privilege, but magic in the misery because my life is very squishy, it's very soft, it's very comfortable. I am so grateful I have health insurance, my shoes always fit. It's only when I push myself to those extreme levels do I know what I'm made of, when I've been out on the trail for 30 hours, when I've I'm in a competition, it's four rolls deep, and I can't even close my hands. Like, what comes out then when I'm exhausted? And am I what what is this thing doing? Or I've I could say in a lot of personal trials and things when who was someone is in the hospital when I was faced with a death. What am I truly capable of? And what beauty can I find in those moments? Because it is that powerful part of life that we can see that when we're outside of all of our normal comfort.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

Absolutely. And that like David Goggins would definitely agree. And I don't I don't agree with the extent with which that he goes to his intensity. I don't think most people can can carry that intensity for too long. Carry that boat, I guess. I think that's his line, like who's gonna carry the boats, you know. But like, you know, like for people like me who have to be intellectually stimulated in order to be involved in something, I can't just chop wood, carry water. It has to have meaning, it has to have purpose, there has to be a why, there has to be what's the greater picture here? We need to zoom out, like what are we at? What are we doing here? You know? And then and you know, I don't always do that. There are mindless things that I do in my daily life, but on the general trajectory, where am I going next? Where what am I seeking? What am I trying to find? What am I trying to experience? Because if I let my life stay the same as it is every single day, then I am just existing. And I don't, I don't necessarily mean leaving a legacy, creating something that can be passed on. I I I like I do believe that for myself. I think that would be interesting. Like, I'm not probably gonna have kids, so like that's my legacy to leave is like research and other experiences and and the way that I you know work with clients and stuff. But being able to to have a life that is worth living is something where you are constantly engaged. Because I know what it's like to be depressed, I know what it's like to not have that will to do anything, I know what it's like to be defeated, I know what it's like to be with loss and have things taken from you. And so when when we get on the mats, uh, when we do our sport, when we do our, you know, our hard, we choose our hard. And I think that's kind of like pressure is a privilege, but but like not necessarily, because pressure is pressure and it's how you interpret it. I wouldn't necessarily say it is that. It is you're gonna experience hard things in your life, and it's what you do with it that matters. It's not if, it is when. And sometimes we like to have that happen to us. You're like, you know what? Today wasn't hard enough. I need a 300-man to sit on my chest. I need more. I this could get worse, and I need to find out just how much, you know. Like, this is where we go when when we need this, but it's to feel, it's to grow, it's to s to progress. It doesn't matter really what direction necessarily, because to each their own, and they're each one has their own compass and authentic means of living. But where are you going is really, I think, the biggest thing that you can you can ask. I mean, of course, there's also the other quote that's like wherever you are, there you are. So, like you can't run to escape yourself. Uh, you have to take yourself with you, unfortunately. But isn't that what endurance sports is? You bring it's just yourself. There's no one chasing you, there's no threat. It's just, do you wanna?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:12

Do you at least I want that shirt that says like, if you see me running, you should be too because I don't run. I want to run it directly in the marathon and look like horrified and get that picture taken because I think it would be really funny. Right. But it's like, but is it the the is it the jujitsu tattoo where it's like a shark and it's like stillness is death. You like really the I think of sedentary and mediocre, it sounds like the worst to me. I love, I love new hobbies and I love the thrill of learning and the novelty sits in and the why. And I like my mom always says, like, why do I choose the hard things to do? Like I thought I picked up the banjo after playing like zero instruments ever, and it's so hard and I'm really bad at it. But like the little incremental growth, I am scraping for any success that I have. And it's fun, it's because I'm frankly, I'm not gonna be a professional banjo player, I'm not gonna be um a professional fighter, but I can still find joy and growth and success, and you're right, wrapped in a whole lot of failure.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:17

Right, exactly. It's not if it's when, you know, when are you gonna deal with something hard? Like when is a wildfire gonna pop up at your house? You know, um, when is when are you gonna run into someone at the parking lot and you know, mess up your bumper and then tell on yourself to the insurance and then have your insurance premium go up? Yeah, there's lots of things that will happen that are from inconvenient to catastrophic, but it's like we can't predict, we don't know. All we could do is develop our tools for when shit hits the fan, and then we can deal with it and know. And the biggest thing, I think this is like kind of the the through line from for my work is and not abandon yourself in the process. Yeah, you can you can go heavy and hard and hard on the paint and go do these world and these higher higher epile echelon tournaments and devote your life to it, that there's no meaning, if you're just doing it to please others, if you know there's not really any like internal, then it's not worth it. And you will erode. And if you take on the messaging of others instead of figuring out what messaging you need to hear, you will betray yourself because it will be more about the outcome and the external that you will erode your insides to make other people like you and to be cool and to be happy and to be all of these other things that we're chasing, and then you realize, oh my god, it's an inside job. It's an inside job. I'm stuck with me. It better be a nice place to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:00

I feel like that needs to be like I I need to put that down. I'm stuck with me. It better be a nice place because it's true. At the end of the day, like I'm choosing this path that I'm living. Whether juju on again on the mats or in my lifetime, but these are the important parts. Exactly. That's a lot to think about. It's exciting, it's exciting to know we have such control. It reminds me of the like the nihilist. There's a meme where it's like two little creatures are on a bus and one is like life is meaningless, and then the other's like, life is meaningless, because I get to choose what I how do I take that? How do I interpret the challenges, the successes, my growth?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:44

My favorite line like that is no one cares to no one cares. It's like it can be so enlightening. Like I can go off and fail and do whatever, and like literally no one cares. I can go be an idiot and I can go do things, and like I don't, I don't have to care because people are too worried caring about something else. Like, nobody cares, no one cares, and that feels really good. And then other times you're like, no one cares, and then you're like, wait, my psychological, you know, my psyche is really suffering from not having any friends. Like, that's a whole nother story, but generally, like choosing to think that no one cares is a lot healthier, and choosing to say it with a smile or an exclamation point, or like you know, like a little star emoji that's like glittering, it's like no one cares. That yes, that like that is that is it to be able to say it is what it is, and I'm and I'll be alright. I'll be alright either way. Like it may not be what I wanted, it may not be how I wanted it, but uh I'm I'm going to be alright. And like I'm gonna say that through gritted teeth, I'm gonna say that with clenched fists, I'm gonna say that like life is so good, you know? And that's a choice to see, to see the goodness. It's hard, it's really hard sometimes. Um, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna shame anybody. And this is a great opportunity to say my favorite Brene Brown quote, which is what we don't need in the midst of struggle is shame for being human. And I think that when we do hard things, we don't need someone to judge us for how we did it or how we failed. And so we don't need to bring that on ourselves. We don't need to shame ourselves, we don't need to be embarrassed, we don't need to be, oh my god, I can't believe I did that. Like, unless it's for this the plot, you know, that's fine. But like we can't shame ourselves for the choices that we made when we did what we had, we did what we could with what we had, you know, and and being able to say, like, this is this is the mindset that I was in, and this is what I could do. But in that same token is being able to take inventory before you do something hard and say, these are all the resources I have, these are all the ways that I can win, these are all the things that I have at my disposal, and this is why I believe in myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:03

It's hard to turn that little voice inside off, but it's nice to have that, like in the moments of strength, be able to say that in the moments like reminding yourself it's one of those muscles that has to be flexed all the time, and knowing that whatever happened in front of me, the stubbing off my toe, the garage door opening, the sun shining, it those are just events. I I designate whether I am excited about it or upset about it or mad about it or whatever, but I have opportunities. I could look outside and see the sun shining, be like, yay, I can go to the beach, or I could see the sun shining and be like, oh, I was supposed to go snowboarding and now all the snow is gonna melt. It really is my perspective. And I don't have to sun, I don't have to rose-colored glass everything I go through. And you're right, like that's where that know this scene part. I could that makes sense in my brain. It just is because I don't even have to assign things all the time. That's another layer to add to that story.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:59

Yeah, Shakespeare said nothing is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so. We all make choices, we don't make good choices or bad choices, we make choices. The universe doesn't change based on the choices that you make. You just make a choice and then you deal with the consequences. There and consequences is has a negative connotation, but consequence is just you know, cause and effect. I do this, this happens. And I'm not going to add a layer of meaning that doesn't need to be there. So I think that's where people also get confused. Like, it needs to have meaning, it needs to have purpose, and it needs to be linked with something greater than you. But there are meaningless things. There are things that say, this is not, this is not actually important in the grand scheme of things, but the ability to have a grand scheme is how you're able to know that it fits or it doesn't fit. And you can say, nope, this is who I am, these are my values, and this is where this goes. And if you meet someone that you don't have shared values, or you meet a coach that just does not speak your language, then you leave and you go somewhere else. Or if you're working at a place that does not fulfill you, you leave if you can and you go somewhere else. And so obviously, what you were saying is like being privileged, having the privilege and having access to resources and all those things is is you know one thing, but like being able to notice what you can choose, you like that's Victor Frankel, right? Like being able to say, I'm I'm in the most extreme situation ever, and I'm still going to choose how I feel about it. So giving us that space to make that choice, I think is the the greatest thing we can give to ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:43

We have a list of like seven books long that we have referenced, and it's just like I read Van Search for Meeting. I know what she's talking about. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:52

Yes. It's it's it just you know, it all it's all gonna go to life. So like that's your your question was like, how do you maintain like performance-based when it goes into life? And it's like what I found interesting, there was a there was a study research that that supports that just because you teach a kid something in a specific context does not mean they will apply that to other generalized concept concepts and contexts. So, like, if like I can't if it if it's not explicitly stated, hey, you see where this is a pattern? Do you see where this correlates? Do you see how you know being nice to our training partners and making sure that we don't hurt them means they could come back, which also is how we keep friends in life, which is also how we, you know, have a circle of belonging and meaning when we are nice to people and we share, you know, like it's being able to take the minor, minute lesson and then apply it to a general, but you need to do that and make that connection for most people because they won't make that connection themselves. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:05

And you like I was trying to think of analogy. I walk, I teach um children grow up in houses with chairs, and so they sit in chairs, and then they might see a couch. It looks similar to a chair, so they sit in them, they come to school and see a desk, and so they're gonna sit in the chair, and so there is the opportunity to carry those lessons. You go to one place and you see someone stand on a chair for the first time and use it as a stool, and they're like, What are you doing? That is for bottoms, that is not for feet, and then then we learn a lesson and then we move forward and realize ah, sometimes it's different. Most of the time it's gonna be one way, but we can have flexible thinking, exactly, psychological flexibility. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we we have covered so much, and I'm so excited, and we're like an hour and 20 in, and we can just keep going and going. Oh, no, who's your favorite hardcore band?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:56

I like Down to Nothing and Have Heart, more of like that 2000s, early 2000s era, I would say, is yeah, those those types of bands. Um, terror is a local, as a local LA person, I love terror. Kind of grew up seeing them. But yeah, generally, like I have a minor threat tattoo. So like the punk really, not the like the metal-oriented hardcore, but the punk-oriented hardcore is usually and with the ones with like meaningful lyrics. I mean, I I you know, I can listen to some hate breed, you know, I can get real caveman, real simple, but I really like you know the poetic Pat Flynn English teacher, have heart and fiddlehead and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:44

So we have we're gonna see one at the next weekend. Yes, I have to think what it is. It's casualties and adolescents are gonna be claimed. Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:56

So if you feel like the need to come down to Southern California a bit farther down, we could go hang out and well, I actually have a poster of Chain Reaction hanging up in my office um going there. So I saw Fallout Boy in 2005. Um yeah, at Chain Reaction. I love Chain Reaction, it's like this teensy little place. I know they closed down, they did, yeah. They closed it, they couldn't keep it open.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:23

So you know, I saw a couple couple shows there. If you really go on a trip, look up Cuckoo Kangaroo. It's complete opposite. It's like Minnesota version of the Beastie Boys, and they are like the cutest little things. They sing about like leftovers and roller coasters, but and they bring in a parachute during the show. Oh my god, that's amazing. And they have a song about a cat party. You might like that because you have your four.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:47

Oh, I was not invited to a cat party party. I would be I would be so upset. I've been to so many. I actually got my my most recent cat. I got him from the Niagara Falls Cat Cafe. I've been to many cat cafes. Indianapolis, Tokyo, Santa Barbara, you know. I find cats wherever I go. Yet I have not gone to Greece or Turkey or like the Baltics, and I've heard there's just like a lot of stray cats. Singapore had a lot of stray cats, and I pet most of them. Yeah, they they were we became friends. They were like on my like top eight, MySpace, immediately after meeting. Yeah, we became best friends. I got it, I got it tattooed on me actually. I really loved the kaya toast in Singapore, and I also loved the cats, so I put a cat on a piece of toast, and it's an inbred cat, which most of them are inbred, and that's why they have the cross eye. Because there's just yeah, we don't know what they're doing out there. We don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:53

I love it. I love we kept it super buttoned up until I like until zip unzip the zipper so we then we can be like, okay, we got the talking out of the way. Now let's talk about hardcore.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:03

Yeah, but I I have to go so I could train, but it was amazing talking with you. And hopefully we can train in the future because we're not too far.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:12

No, that would be so much fun. And you know, do you know the guys at the gym? You know, you're a kobo. I think we talked a little bit about it. You nick Nick Bully and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's awesome. I appreciate that he understands like the way, like, I I was referred to him by do you know Evelyn? She goes by Banana Peel. Or like on on Instagram, she has a lot of pictures. She told me that if she were to start over as a white belt, she would see him because of his technicality and because of like body structure, he understands efficiency of movement and he explains it so well. So it's like great advice, good start. Amazing. Yeah, I'll have to come visit. I'll come train. Yeah, that'd be so funny. Okay, Erin, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you. Thank you. We'll talk soon. Okay, that was an amazing talk with my friend Erin. And because I was too excited as we were finishing up and talking about cats and hardcore and all the other little things, I forgot for her to give a plug about how amazing she is in working with her. So if you are interested in Erin Hurley, there's a lot of great things that she does. She helps with reducing performance anxiety, improving concentration, setting both short-term and long-term goals, increasing and maintaining motivation, building self-confidence, improving communication, recovering from injury, starting and maintaining an exercise program. I love that she shows up as authentically as she does. She has been through so many life circumstances on and off the mat, and to work with her would just be such a gift. So please reach out to her. I'm sure she works with in-person and online. Just so many avenues. She talked about our seminars, she talked about coaching. There are just so many opportunities and onwards and upwards for that gal. She does so many things. My quick shout-out for this episode is if that you've made it to the very end. This has been my longest episode to date, which is super exciting. It's number 35. Woo-hoo! So thank you for being here. Thank you for listening to all this. Normally now I would do a wrap-up, but I just kind of did. So as we finish up our time together, I say thank you for listening to Emily's Pajama Party. Hope you tune in for another episode. Until then, stay cozy. And remember, do one thing for yourself today that scares you a little bit. That's where the magic happens.