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Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams is cohosted by Dr. Jim Shalley and Dr. Selden Dee Kelley III, a therapist and a coach who love talking about how inner work can help you live with more awareness, purpose and freedom.
Therapy, Coaching & Dreams
STIR Crazy: An Introduction
This opening episode of the first season of Therapy, Coaching & Dreams (TCD), provides an introduction to therapy and life coaching. The cohosts provide a model for understanding personality, that is based on Jungian principles.
There are two different expressions of personality; masculine and feminine. These are not gender specific designations, but rather expressions that are in everyone. (Some people refer to yin and yang. The terms may be different, but the distinction is the same: Yin, the passive feminine, and Yang, the aggressive masculine.)
There are also two different types of energy; dynamic (forward movement) and static (organizational stability).
This results in four personality styles (STIR):
1. The Stabilizer (Masculine/Static) who brings order, systems and rules to contain chaos.
2. The Transformer (Feminine/Dynamic) who is visionary, creative and spontaneous.
3. The Initiator (Masculine/Dynamic) who is leading, forward moving and problem solving.
4. The Responder (Feminine/Static) who is nurturing, affirming, organized and relational.
Most people will find one style as dominant in their life, but everyone has access to all four energies.
This model of personality styles forms the basis for this season of Therapy, Coaching & Dreams.
You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:
AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / www.InYourDreams.Coach (Dr. Kelley)
Welcome everybody to Therapy Coaching in Dreams. I am one of your co-hosts, Dee Kelly, and I'm here with Jim Shaley. And we are a coach and a therapist who loves talking about the inner journey and how it might transform our lives in ways that help us to relate better to one another, relate better to ourselves in the first place, and relate better to the circumstances that we find ourselves in all the time. This is an introduction to a model that is really based on some jungian background, and it gives us an opportunity to introduce you to something that we have found very effective in our respective practices and in our conversations with each other and with one another. So, Jim, tell us about how this has played itself out in your practice and in your journey.
SPEAKER_00:Great question. For me, when I explain to couples, the interplay of the masculine and feminine, and basically it's not very clearly it's not male-female. It's uh expressions of ourselves, both masculine, which basically uh errs on the side of tasks, getting things done, accomplishing things, initiating those kind of things, and the m and the feminine, which is basically relationally driven. So anything that has to do with relationships is a feminine energy. The way I conceptualize it, I think the way Jungian talks about it, is this it that energy is in all of us. And sometimes we've relegated it to the male plays out the masculine and the female plays out the feminine. And I I've realized that with couples, it's a lot of combinations of that. And sometimes you'll come in with a man who has more feminine energy, and the wife will have more masculine energy, but she'll be frustrated that he doesn't have as much masculine energy. So that was kind of the impetus of trying to, okay, that seems to really help couples relax a little bit and realize, okay, we're not we're not role-defined in that sense. We can access each of those energies in ourselves. We just have to know more about what that looks like. So then I came up with a very common dynamic, which is the four quadrants of behavior. So I came up with the acronym STIR, which basically stands for the stabilizer, the transformer, the initiator, and the responder. The stabilizer and the initiator would be the masculine expressions. The stabilizer brings order to things. It's kind of like the police department or the fire department, anything that provides structure to a culture or to society. And in a marriage, there's someone who typically does that naturally. The initiator is someone who achieves, accomplishes, sets goals, is driven in that sense. That's that's the masculine energy. So that's the S, the stabilizer and the initiator. The T and the R are more of the feminine expressions. The transformer basically is spontaneous, impulsive, fun, kind of carefree, creative, highly high, usually pretty high energy. And the responder is more of a caregiver. So they take care of things, they anticipate needs, they're really engaged in the care of others. That's feminine energy. Again, simply relationally defined. In fact, the feminine has more puts more emphasis on how things affect their relationships, whereas the masculine has more emphasis on getting things done or accomplishing things. Both are really essential. Both uh all of all four of them, in my conceptualization, and I think I'm not, it's not unique to me, but from my understanding, it's it's in all of us. So the goal really is at any given moment, with whatever decision I have, where do I need to be? Do I need to bring some order to things? Do I need to be more creative and think outside the box about the possibilities? Do I need to just initiate some things or do I just need to take care of some things and nurture things? So, with that said, that's kind of how I frame individuals and couples counseling. For me, in the beginning, it seemed to work more effectively with couples because they were struggling with those roles. And for example, I'd have someone, again, back to what I alluded to earlier, whereas the the uh the wife in this relationship typically struggling because they want the man to the man to be more masculine or take charge or to lead more. And that's not a natural energy for them. So I would explain the dynamic and say, this is kind of where you're at. And so it would diffuse the idea that it was kind of some kind of a personal attack to each each of the others as far as how they lived their lives, but it was just a natural expression of energy for uh for that individual. And that really seemed to reduce the anxiety that we have a bad marriage or or uh we're a mess. So that explanation just really helped a lot in people taking a deep breath and realizing, okay, there's some hope here that we can we can see this relationship differently.
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Ross Powell That's great. Let me ask you to go a step further with the distinctions between those four personality styles you referred to four quadrants. But it's probably appropriate to describe them as four personality styles. But what I hear you saying, and and correct me if I'm wrong, that we tend to migrate to a particular style, yet we have access within us to all of those different energies. And as we move toward health, we learn how to access those different approaches when the situation calls for it. Does that make sense? Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. We usually have we usually have one natural bias that comes easy to us for whatever reason. And I think as you grow and understand, and even the tension of relationships will bring that out. Probably the old school adage would be that you you live out the feminine, I live out the masculine, very role-defined. Perhaps relationships back in the 50s and 60s were more prominent of that. And as we as we've grown in understanding ourselves, we've realized that no, we really can access all of those inside of ourselves if we're if we have an increased understanding of ourselves, if we really see that, okay, I'm I'm looking to this person to kind of make my life better or save my life, and we realize they can't, and then we have to access some different energies. For example, if you want your spouse to be more caring or more giving or whatever, and they just can't access that, well, then can I do that for myself? Can I take care of myself? But again, it's played out a little differently when I'm working with an individual or with a couple. Because the couple dynamic kind of affects what that looks like on some level, but ultimately it comes back to the individual expression of that. How do I do that inside myself?
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Powell Which will, in a later episode, take us down the direction of projection and how we impose that inner need or desire onto other people.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. And that's what inhibits the internalization of this formula in that sense. Because I keep thinking, well, if you do if you would just do do that, you know, we'd be okay. In couples therapy, a lot of the times, they point fingers at each other. If you were just this way, we'd be fine. And that's that's never true. And that's where the beginning process of trying to pull that up pull that back and think back to your point about that's the beginning of projection or identifying it's a projection. And what can I can I do that myself? And you still want to obviously you want to be interdependent. You don't want to just be islands living together because we're silos now and we don't need each other. It's just working, working through that with a better understanding and explanation of it.
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Ross Powell In describing that acronym, Stir, you took two in each category, one that is more of a masculine ex not not one, but two that are more masculine in their expression, that being the stabilizer and the initiator. Right. And then there are two that are more feminine in their expression, the responder and the transformer. So could you help us to understand the dimension that separates the two that are within each category? So start off with the stabilizer versus the initiator. Both of those tend to be masculine in the way they get expressed, but there is a difference between dynamic and static or yeah.
SPEAKER_00:That's a great way of looking at it. That's exactly what happens. The initiator is more dynamic, and the stabilizer is more static. And by that I mean basically a dynamic individual keeps moving forward. They keep looking at new opportunities. The static brings order to what is. So if there's a kind of a chaotic organization, they'll bring in someone that really has a good handle on bringing structure to things, which is kind of basically the what the stabilizer does. It stabilizes the system. They err on the side of being maybe too static, but the natural partner of that is the initiator in the masculine expression.
SPEAKER_01:So do the same thing for the feminine expressions, the transformer and the responder, both of those being feminine expressions, which one is the dynamic one and why? And which one is the more static energy?
SPEAKER_00:The dynamic one is a great one. It's the transformer, in the sense that they're always having fun, they're always thinking outside the box, they're very creative, they're great at a party, they just bring a different life to them. And they again, they don't necessarily think of how they're affecting others. They're just having a good time. The responder is more static. The responder in a different way anticipates needs but brings order to things as well. So that's why it they all interplay in some ways, but the responder, the classic look of the responder is basically anticipate needs. So they're oftentimes matched up naturally with the transformer because the I mean uh with the uh stabilizer. I misspoke there, but the stabilizer, because they're so spontaneous and fun that they need someone to kind of bring order to their lives. So that oftentimes you'll find that in a relationship, that that's a natural attraction, just like the initiator and the responder is a natural attraction in some ways.
SPEAKER_01:It seems to me that there can not only be a dominant personality style, but there can be a dominant way of expression so that I am far more able to access the static side of life. I like organization. I can do that in a nurturing fashion, or I can do that in a spreadsheet fashion. I can do it as a stabilizer, or I can do it as a responder. And it's the dynamic side of life that feels a little frightening or chaotic, and I resist it whether it's transformer or initiator. And the flip side of that is what I was just asking about a few moments ago, and that is I can be so dominated by this forward thinking, this movement constantly, that I have a natural tendency to be a transformer or an initiator, but I also appreciate anyone who's getting us to move forward and find myself attracted to that over and over again. And then I would say that I could also simply be dominated by a masculine expression, that I am I am avoidant of relational connectedness or concerns. And I always want to default to the logic side of things. And so it's this masculine side of doing things, solving problems, moving forward.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, yes. The masculine is basically as you described, it wants to get things done. They minimize the importance of the relationship. Naturally. And if they aren't balanced, if they don't balance the feminine side, you can see how that would affect a relationship. They would come across as not having empathy, not really caring about the family or whatever. And the feminine would speak up and say, What are you doing? Why are you working so much? Well, that's that's my role. So that's why we've, in the past, stereotypically looked at the masculine energy goes out and provides and protects. The feminine energy stays home and protects and provides differently. They create a nest. The classic traditional way of looking at the masculine and feminine, the feminine stays home and nests and makes the family comfortable and takes care of everything. The masculine goes out and kills the, you know, kills the animal, brings them home, and all that. Well, in my mind, that's that that served us well. But now I think we're moving into a different place where really each individual has those energies. And what does it look like to really express those within? Not not to discount the idea that obviously you still want to be cooperative and work in relationships, but to carry the load of the feminine at home sometimes, and uh for the feminine to carry the load of the masculine. That happened, you know, back in the 70s when women started to go back to work. I think it really shifted things. And now most places have double incomes. Well, we're trying to we're starting to appreciate each of the expressions. For example, when a when a I think a woman was feeling underappreciated at home, to use the stereotypical frame, they were feeling underappreciated, so they would go back to work, whether they needed to for financial reasons or because they the kids were gone and they didn't have a a a clear focus of things. Well, why do they do that? Well, they may have been feeling unappreciated by the masculine who was out working and minimizing the what the feminine was doing at home. So then the feminine jumped into the masculine mode to go to work to get appreciated. So then the masculine had to stay home and take h take care of the kids or help with the kids. And that that again gave them an appreciation of the feminine and what the feminine did. So I see that as the interplay of what's what's happened the last 30 or 40 years. Does that make sense? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. I'm gonna ask you to do something for me. I'm gonna use the STIR acronym, and it is these personality styles, we're gonna be referring to them throughout this season of conversation. Uh so I would like at the beginning of all of this, just to give a couple handles. You did it well, but I'm just gonna go one by one through the STIR acronym. And when you mentioned Transformer, you said, oh, that's it. It's a great one because you identified some of the positive characteristics. I was a little defensive because when you referenced the stabilizer, which probably is where I lean into, you named all of our negative characteristics.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm not sure what that prejudice is about. Well, I think I think you have a bias of interpreting as negative.
SPEAKER_01:But I would actually like you to do that for all four.
SPEAKER_00:So what I'm a transformer, so of course I'm gonna think me in a good light. I mean, of course. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. So I would like you to say when it's functioning well, this is where you see it come to life. And either in its absence or in its toxic form, what might it look like? Okay? Oh, okay. Yeah. Let's start with a stabilizer, and you can repeat the toxic stuff that you've already said. But start off with in its best form, what's the stabilizer doing?
SPEAKER_00:Oh man, it's it's the one that I probably over my lifetime have struggled with the most because it tries to contain, in my opinion, is contain the stabilizer or the dreamer. So the stabilizer is So let's start with the toxic stuff then.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks, Jim.
SPEAKER_00:The stabilizer is absolutely essential of life. It it brings order. It it is such a valuable energy. It really is. And I I know I'm smiling because uh, as I'm saying it, it it feels restrictive, but it really isn't. And that's why a transformer, a natural transformer that begins to appreciate the stabilizer, it's such a journey because they they just resist it naturally so much of the time because they feel like it's restrictive. When really it is such an important dynamic. I mean, you think about it naturally, it's the first four or five years of life for a child that a mother's energy usually brings that stabilizing energy because it has to. They have to organize that child. And it's so important. Without that structure, that beginning four or five years of structure, of course, the child is is a much different dynamic in that sense to bring order to things. So yeah, it's it's absolutely essential. It's life-giving, it's also misunderstood most of the time. And then from that point.
SPEAKER_01:And it's when it is not in balance, it does as you've already described, it becomes very judgmental, it's very restrictive, and it sets boundaries that it's always corrective.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the classic thing is always corrective, you set it wrong. And again, the transformer personality is so is so impulsive and spontaneous, you can see where the natural attraction is. But at the same time, it's like the transformer brings fun to the stabilizer, stabilizer brings order to the transformer. It's a really nice match, but you have to respect the differences. And that's that's sometimes the challenge.
SPEAKER_01:Since T Transformer is the second one in the acronym, you've mentioned some real positive characteristics of the Transformer. When the Transformer is acting in a dysfunctional way, what are some of the things that take place?
SPEAKER_00:Aaron Powell Becomes way too excessive. They push the limits, they push boundaries, they're risk takers, and the negative, real negative side of that is oftentimes they be they become embroiled with addictions. Uh because they're they're so they're so full of energy and spontaneous kind of dynamics that that they uh the pushing the limits, whether it's gambling or drugs or alcohol, uh they can really get caught up in that.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you. Let's move to the initiator, which is a dynamic masculine energy. When it's functioning well, how does it show up? What where do you see it in your own life or in someone else?
SPEAKER_00:They're uh oftentimes they're just natural leaders. They they see what needs to happen and they they're in a crisis situation, they're the ones that will jump in and they'll just organize things, just how they think. That's a natural, natural uh again, a natural energy expression. They initiate to put it to I mean, how do you expand on that? If they see a problem, they jump in right away to how can we fix this? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And when it is out of balance, what does it look like?
SPEAKER_00:They're dictatorial, but in a different sense than the stabilizer, because the stabilizer becomes dictatorial and judgmental. But the initiator becomes I mean, the extreme expression would be more like a cult leader, that they really dominate personality types and they don't they don't listen to anybody, they don't pay attention, they just keep moving forward with their plan and th uh they can get people to follow them, but usually it's it's more cultish in that sense. I mean, that's really the extreme. The the negative side of that typically is they don't listen to feedback at all. They would just they would just make a plan, implement it, not listen to much m many negatives about it, they would just keep doing it. And didn't they wouldn't really care how it affects the the organization or the family. It's kind of like the initiator would say, we're going for the family would be like, we're going on this vacation. And it wouldn't there wouldn't be any discussion about it, there wouldn't be any feed f feedback. We would just simply go do that. That's the vacation we're doing because they wanted to do it.
SPEAKER_01:Gotcha. And then the responder, you've already mentioned some of the wonderful characteristics. They are attentive to the needs of others and know how to do that well. When that particular expression is not healthy, how does it show up?
SPEAKER_00:Aaron Ross Powell They're enablers. They they don't have good boundaries, they overfunction, they become smothering in some ways that they anticipate so many needs that it's restrictive of of individuals. But it's all it's all well-intended from their perspective, but they become so caught up in meeting everybody's needs that it can feel like it's it's it's oppressive or smothering.
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Ross Powell I know this is probably a tangent for another episode, but when a responder who is so attentive to other people's needs eventually finds that less than fulfilling and they become resentful, is resentful a consequence of a movement toward balance because they see it's not working, or is it a natural consequence of being a nurturer that eventually you don't get back what you've been given away?
SPEAKER_00:That's a really good question. Uh it's a little bit of both. I think for the most part, when a responder, for me, for in my work, a lady a lady might come in in her late 40s, early 50s, and they're exhausted, depressed, and can't figure out why. And I ask a few questions, and it it only takes a little little time to discover that they've overfunctioned, they've given everything they can, the their husband typically works all the time, the kids are taking advantage of her, nobody's respecting, nobody's helping out at home. And I'll simply say, so it sounds like you overfunctioned at home. And almost immediately they'll identify, although I may ask the question, what does that mean? And I'll describe it, that you took care of everybody. You anticipated everybody's needs, and you didn't get any of your needs met. And they almost always resist initially and say, Well, that's not what I did it. And I go, I understand that on the surface, but you're you're getting really bitter and angry about it. So obviously there must have been something you were expecting back. And it takes them a while for them to acknowledge that, because that seems selfish. But once they do, they realize, okay, I gave too much. And so then unconsciously, in a whole different dynamic, sometimes they'll they'll feel that first and they'll go to their husbands and say, I really want to go back to work. And the husbands will be really supportive of that until they actually do it. Because then the husband it shakes them up because now that they're not home taking care of everything. But that's usually the unconscious way to try to address the fact that I'm not getting some needs met, so I want to go back to school or I want to do something, I want to go back to work. But if they if they come to me and they're just depressed, typically you go through the process saying you you've overfunctioned and you've you've given away your best. And now can you even see the possibility of giving to yourself, which is the internalization of what we're talking about? How do I use the responder to take care of me when I've used it to take care of everybody else? It's great.
SPEAKER_01:And let me make a bridge as kind of a last summary piece here. You gave some great examples, and so often the best examples, because we can see them lived out, are in relationship. So when a style comes into conflict, so the very thing that was attractive in our relationship at the beginning becomes problematic years into the relationship. The very thing that attracts you drives you nuts. Absolutely. And that's in part because we've externalized everything. And part of this season that we're doing is to move that conversation inward and say, how do I examine my own journey so that I might be in a healthier place? So kind of wetting our appetite for where we're going in the future here, if if I'm a let me see you use the example of the nurturer, and often attracted to an initiator. So if I'm a responder, a nurturer, and you're telling me that I need to pay attention to the initiator side of my life. I need to I need to take charge of some things that uh feels like an absolutely foreign language. And where do I begin that first step of trying to see myself as having within me the access to that kind of energy?
SPEAKER_00:Well, with the responder, it's pretty easy because you basically point out how they initiated every possible thing for their children. And they go, Oh yeah, I mean, didn't you keep track of their homework? Didn't you keep track of all and they almost go, Oh, well, yeah, I did. That's the initiator. So you gave away your initiating energy to others as opposed to yourself. And that's that makes sense. But again, to your point, it's still that's a nice concept. But to actually try to do it, it feels selfish. So you have to get through their bias as to as far as how they see that. And so if they see it being selfish, I have to reframe it and say, well, it was it was it was pretty selfish to initiate for others. Because that's where your well-being was tied up in. So you have to kind of do that kind of flip as far as the purpose it was serving them even then. Because again, that's w we're using our natural expression typically in a selfish way because it's how we function. But we think we're giving it away, especially the responder. But yeah, that's that's a great example. It's easy to it's pretty easy at some point to get them to identify the different expressions in their lives. But again, it may be expressed in a moment when they have to, so it doesn't feel like they can naturally do it. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, to make to make a a conscious choice.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Absolutely. They have to wait till it gets so stressful that they do it, as opposed to realizing, oh man, see, so I could really I could really do that right now and wouldn't have to wait till it gets really very upsetting before I do it or trauma-traumatic. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think one of the ways by which we begin to think inwardly is to do what we are trying to do in this series. We're going to start looking back in order to move forward, looking at our family of origin, what it was like when we were a kid, how our families handled emotion. And when we examine those things, we see a little bit of maybe why we developed the way we developed it and that it was part of our survival. It worked for us.
SPEAKER_00:Aaron Powell Yes. Yep. And again, we we develop those typically you develop those uh ways to cope really early on. So we don't even know we're doing them. So by five or six or seven, you figured out how to function. That can serve you well until obviously the classic thing, which is until it doesn't. So that's usually midlife.
SPEAKER_01:So that's usually when people seek out coaching or therapy. Yep. That's so true. Or or dreams break through into consciousness and startle you away.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely true. That's absolutely true. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that series with you as well.
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Powell Wonderful. Uh we hope all of you will join us in this journey and we are looking forward to where this takes us. Thanks, Jim. Good to be with you. Great, good to be with you. Well, that's it for this episode of Therapy Coaching and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. And if you are interested in working with either of the co hosts, you can do so at their respective websites, Dr. Shally at AFCcounselors.com or Dr. Kelly at inyourdreams.coach. Thanks for being here. And until next time, keep growing. Stay curious and take good care of yourself.