S1E5 Feminine and Masculine Expressions

Feminine, masculine and androgynous characteristics are in every person. This is not a description of male versus female. Rather it is an acknowledgement that human personality has a broad spectrum of expression, and we might benefit greatly from better understanding of those parts of ourselves that dominate our personality and those parts that have remained undeveloped.

Cohosts Dee Kelley and Jim Shalley provide some pathways for understanding and growth. Here are some of the issues they cover.

     1. Each person should use language that fits their journey. We provide some categories and labels for certain personality expressions, but feel free to use labels  that make the most sense to you. Personalize it.

     2. The masculine energy is about accomplishment, and the feminine energy is about relationships. The masculine side knows what needs to be said, the feminine side will tell you how to say it tactfully.

     3. The blind spot of the masculine is that regardless of what it does to people, they are going to do it. The blind spot of the feminine is to postpone a decision because it is going to hurt someone.

     4. The divisions in our individual lives are reflected in the divisions in our families. And the divisions in our families are reflected in the divisions of our culture. If we want the culture or world to heal, we must first do our own inner work.

     5. STIR: Stabilizer / Transformer / Initiator / Responder. These are the four personality styles. Stabilizer is both a static energy and masculine expression. Transformer is both a dynamic energy and feminine expression. Initiator is both a dynamic energy and masculine expression. The Responder is both a static energy and feminine expression.

     6. The Transformer and Stabilizer have a natural attraction. The Initiator and Responder have a natural attraction. The challenge is to realize that we are attracted to the undeveloped traits in ourselves. An important pathway of growth is to explore and nurture the undeveloped traits within.

     7. Stay curious.

You can connect with the cohosts through their respective websites:

AFCCounselors.com (Dr. Shalley) / https://www.inyourdreams.coach/contact (Dr. Kelley)

Chapters

• 0:00 Section A

Transcript

Section A

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Welcome to Therapy Coaching and Dreams. I'm Dee Kelly and I'm here with my co-host, Jim Shally. We're a coach and a therapist who love talking about how inner work can help you live with more awareness, purpose, and freedom. Welcome to the podcast. Welcome, Jim. I'm glad you're here with me. Last week we spent some time talking about where we find our energy, whether it's a dynamic energy with a lot of movement or whether it's more of a stabilizing energy, a little more static that organizes things and how that expresses itself in our personality.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Yeah, before you before you uh finish that, it is interesting that when I use the term dynamic or static, uh people react to the static term as though it's a negative. Almost always. And that's interesting because dynamic, when I use that phrase, they go, oh yeah, no, I'm I'm kind of that. But if I use and say you're kind of static, it's like, well, what does that mean? I said, well, do you like change? Well, no. Okay, well then that's kind of static. But it does have a uh so I like the I like the stabilizing part better or bring order to things. I think that probably makes it less uh uh offensive to some people that think that static means I just sit around and stare at myself. No, it it means that you don't like change much. And again, even that can be can feel negative. Uh and so I've I've noticed over the years that when I use that terminology, the static personality will always kind of scrunch their nose up a little bit and go, Well, that doesn't sound much fun. I go, well, no, it it's it's life-giving. If you didn't have that that, then not much will get done.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

So it's very smart of you not to affirm their statement and say, yeah, you're not very much fun. That's true. I I do like the term stabilizer because uh I think that very often that is the static posture's response to chaos or to an overly expressed dynamism that creates a wake that nobody knows what to do with. The stabilizer, the organizer, the nurturer comes in and responds to that in incredibly powerful ways and sometimes world-changing ways. Um you're right. I get the same thing. So I often tie stabilizer or nurturer to that static statement because it is an energy. It's not an absence of energy, it's a way by which energy gets expressed.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Aaron Ross Powell And it's a and it's good energy, again, used in good or not so good ways. I mean, it's useful or useless.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah. Great. So let's get into some of the distinctions within that dimension of how people express this with a masculine or feminine energy itself. So we often say this, but needs to be said it again, said again. This is not a reference to men versus women or male versus female. Everyone has masculine and feminine energy within them and can access those parts if they desire to. Doing so, I believe, can create a more balanced approach to life. So I'm going to ask you, Jim, provide some distinction between the masculine energy or approach to dealing with life and the feminine energy or approach. Not so much just yet whether it's dynamic or stabilizing, but just kind of the differences of the feminine within me or the masculine within me. What am I tapping into when I'm tapping into either one of those?

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Uh very general generally, I would say that the masculine is about accomplishment and the feminine is about relationships. Obviously, accomplishment has relationship dynamics to it, and the feminine has accomplishment to it. They're not mutually exclusive, uh, but they they really do complement each other in that sense. So every masculine decision they would say has a relational dynamic to it, and every feminine would say every decision they make has uh has accomplishment to it. It's just the nuances of it, the basic bias is the masculine wants to achieve things, the feminine wants to uh understand how it affects relationships. It's almost like this the the masculine knows somebody needs to be confronted. The feminine will help you understand how to say it tactfully because it affects the relationship. I would say people are using AI almost in that form. They will put in symptoms or they'll put in ideas, and AI will give a really pretty balanced expression of what that's giving value to all aspects. And I'm not sure this is a different discussion if AI really is on the edge of trying to merge the masculine and feminine energies. Anyway, that's a side, a sidebar. I don't want to take up on a tangent of like, you know, we are AI a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Yeah. Let me refer you to our other podcast, which is done completely by AI and is far more popular than ours.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

And uh quite insightful, I might say.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Yeah. Um so I'd like to step into this a little bit further by maybe identifying blind spots. What's the blind spot of somebody who is more dominated by a masculine expression? And what are the blind spots of somebody who's more dominated by a feminine expression?

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Aaron Ross Powell The blind spot of the masculine is regardless of how it affects people, I'm going to do it. An example of that would be someone who buys a company and fires everybody. They don't they don't tend to how it affects everybody. Uh they would say they don't have a heart, but that's that's the extreme example of the masculine where they just basically do it, don't care how it affects anybody. The feminine, on the other hand, almost become immobilized because no matter what decision they make, it's going to affect somebody negatively, so then they don't make a decision. Again, that's the extreme. Or uh because it affects feelings, we need to give everybody uh a break where we don't hold people accountable. We understand there's a deeper motivation, there's a lot of pain there. That's the extreme feminine. Obviously, you can see the separation. So the masculine comes in to try to make up for the feminine, which is too relationally driven by becoming, uh, we can't do that anymore. Let's just let's get rid of those people. Uh whereas the feminine fights for, wait a minute, it's gonna it's gonna hurt the whole family. It doesn't matter. They've gotten away with it forever. That's that's kind of the the extremes of of those two energies.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Yeah. Now I I I would suggest, or maybe I'm asking for your reaction, that the strong, dynamic feminine voice seems to me to be a strong voice for social justice, a prophetic voice, um an artistic uh slant to it, but an artistic expression that might challenge power, that might uh give an alternative view. And sometimes that can have a negative effect on relationships, but it is a, I think, a very strong, strong dynamic approach.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

Well, you know, is that not true? No, at the risk of uh becoming a little political, it's happening right now with the immigration system. I mean, sanctuary cities uh have its place because they're a reaction to the what some would say the cold-hearted approach of going in and ripping families apart and sending them back to their home countries. Whereas sanctuary cities were developed to kind of give them a safe space, regardless of what's happening in their lives, they can stay in this city. So, yeah, we're at extremes with that. And that's what's so frustrating is what's the balance of that as it plays out? Well, that's a great question. But you're right. There is a lot of the good that gets done when the when the masculine that just wants to get stuff accomplished and done goes too far, and then somebody always rises up to say, wait a minute, how's it how is this affecting so many people? Uh I mean, the the again, the extreme example was uh uh whether it was open or not, I don't know, the border, all the crossings at the border. It was relationally driven. They they want to come to a better place and have a better life. Well, along with that, there are people that are coming in with nefarious uh uh thoughts about what they would like to do once they get here. So, what do you how do you sort that all out? Well, one side errs on the side of everybody coming in and we'll figure it out later. The other side says, no, we need to figure it out right now and we're not letting anybody in. And in my mind, that's where the culture's at largely. It's frustrating from my perspective to see it play out so dramatically and be at such odds that we can't sit down and have a conversation that makes some sense for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:27

What happens on a large cultural scale is what happens in individual family systems, which is not handled that very well, which I think is why the the larger expression is be is taken over. We've not done our we've not done our own work.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

Well, yeah. And I was I was gonna say it's not happening in our own family system, often because we're not doing the internal work ourselves. Yeah. So ultimately, if we're really wanting to change the world, we do so by doing our own personal inward work first. Aaron Powell Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

That's what we need to say every podcast, and then everybody will go, hmm, yeah, it's a lot of work. Okay. Let's not do that. Let's just keep doing the crazy stuff we're doing. It is absolutely true. That's the unintegrated self is projected onto the larger culture, and it we we underst we don't understand why all these things are happening because the individual hasn't taken responsibility for their own lives. Okay. Enough little sermonizing, but that's yeah, that's my bias as a therapist. It's like, whoa.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Yeah, I I agree with you. I think it's worth saying every episode.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah, and I'm sure in dreams that tries to come out in dreams. That's why I think your commitment to the dream work is so fascinating because that's exactly if we don't deal with it consciously, the dreams try to help us integrate that as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

And we have a cultural bias that dreams are just the white noise of life. Absolutely. They're an evolutionary artifact. We don't need to pay attention to the anxiety and you know frustrations. Yeah. And the invitation is there every night because we dream every night. Very few people remember them because they don't think they're important. And I agree, and I appreciate you mentioning it, that it's a great way to start if you're wanting to do that internal work, is to become curious about your dreams and work with somebody who has enough insight to guide you as to how to do your own work. It's not universal, it's not the same for everyone. Dreams are, in my opinion, such a perfect pathway because they are subjective and they are tailored exactly to the person who dreams them because they are that person's dreams and guiding us to greater balance if we can. So let me I'm gonna take you into the four quadrants that we sometimes reference. And I just want you to give us kind of a quick synopsis or quick characteristics, what this personality might look like, knowing that people fall all across the board with some combination of these different traits. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

You might be able to help me out more with those, because I think you have the list in front of you. I don't I leave mine at home. So if I miss some, fill in the blanks for me.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

You bet. We've been talking about static and dynamic, masculine and feminine expressions. So let's just start with one of those combinations. Let's start, and we talked about this actually uh two episodes ago, but let's just do a brief synopsis of the masculine static. The masculine static, sometimes referred to as stabilizer. Right. Give us some traits of that individual.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

The uh real quickly, the the four quadrants to to remind the audience, I call them stir. Basically, when you try, when you start balancing them out, it stirs up a lot of stuff inside. So there's a stabilizer, there's the transformer, there's the initiator, and the responder. Well, you the one you're talking about is the stabilizer. Again, we mentioned it, I think, last podcast, that they bring order and structure to things. Uh a police department, fire department, they have accountability as their route in some ways. They hold people accountable to what they said they were going to do. That's the stabilizer. Uh it's a it's an absolutely essential force in the world. Uh it gets misunderstood because they feel like it's like it's uh restricting people's choices when really it isn't. It's basically bringing order to things. If I had to sum it up, they stabilize the world. They the the world is on its axis, it's it's rotating the right way, all of that stuff. That's what the stabilizer does. There are some specific traits that that that expand that, but I if I had to say that that's what really what it uh screw.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

So since we're talking about the contrast between the masculine expression of energy and the feminine expression, let's stay with that masculine side and move toward what I think you refer to as the initiator, which is the masculine dynamic expression, right? Right. Give us some characteristics of that approach to life.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

They see life as accomplishment. I want to get stuff done. So whatever I have to do to make that happen, that's what I'm gonna do. Um so basically it's it's accomplishing, it's it's producing.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Great. Okay. Shifting to the other side of this chart, if you have a visual of what it might look like, we're gonna move to the more feminine expressions, the feminine energy of uh these two things. So let's talk about the the nurture or the responder is what I think you referred to it as the feminine static energy. Give us some characteristics.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Uh the term responder sums it up. They basically respond to the world and sees what needs to have happened so that life can be more comfortable. Like an that they bring an ease to life. In other words, what kind of food needs to be here? What kind of uh environment do we need to have? What kind of aesthetics, what's on the walls, all that stuff is a nurturing quality that basically sees how can I make my life better because of the surroundings that I have. Now, internally, it basically means you give people space and grace, and you always err on the side of grace, so that whatever problem they bring to you, you engage with that, with the possibility of acceptance. So if I had to say one word, it would be acceptance.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

And I often think of uh any type of caregiver, somebody who is naturally drawn to caregiving fits that category. And again, it can be a man or a woman, but it is that energy that moves us toward responding, nurturing, accepting, caregiving.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Aaron Powell Yeah, I would say that the term that you use, caregiver, probably sums it up a little better than the one that I use, because I think that's that that makes it uh more universal. It's like caregiving. So I care for these people. So when they show up to my house, I'm gonna have their favorite drink or whatever, whatever the small little thing is that lets them know that you're very you're very observant about how to make their life better.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

And I might add, if you're on the receiving end of that caregiving, that can just be a wonderful feeling.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Oh, jeez, you kidding me? If you show up and the very thing that you thought of that you wanted there and you didn't think it was going to be there is there, you go, oh, wow, okay. I think I'm in love.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

This is the feminine energy also has a very dynamic side. Um, it is the transformer in your stir. Yes, it is. It's a beautiful, it's a beautiful energy. Talk about uh what that looks like, how that gets expressed.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Uh it's incredibly creative. Uh it just sees the possibilities that can happen. It doesn't pay any attention to the rules and regulations at times. Um it's again the dynamic expression of that, like the dynamic expression of the masculine, it gets stuff, it, it like the masculine, it gets stuff done. The the dynamic feminine in the transformer basically just has a great time. It just embraces life. It it knows no limits. Uh, and that's why they're typically married to a strong stabilizer that tries to help contain their energies. And it's it's the classic thing of the phrase that I came up with years ago is uh grow up what every woman wants a man to do, and shut up what every man wants a woman to do. So I mean it's it's kind of a uh yeah, a little too casual approach to uh to therapy, but it it often describes exactly what we're talking about. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

Should that be the title of this episode, Grow Up and Shut Up?

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Well, I've often told the idea that would be a controversial yet, I think, pretty interesting book to write.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

I mean, from my perspective, pretty true. Let me stay just for a moment longer with that transformer um expression. I have found in my work that true transformers sometimes have very difficult lives because the culture, particularly Western culture, the culture that I've grown up in doesn't know what to do with a transformer. That transforming voice that somehow doesn't see the the laws of nature or the rules that everybody else seems to see, and say things that sometimes feel mystical or um off the wall. And if that's the case growing up and they're not in a nurturing environment, they can come out of adolescence um not feeling like they fit or having been beaten up enough times that they're reluctant to really give in fully to that energy. Have you found that true?

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Uh uh again, to use kind of a current events, the uh discussion the last week or so of the uh the disc jockey Howard Stern, where uh I think serious radio is not going to read uh they're gonna offer him some money, but they don't think he'll take it because he's had a really expensive contract the last 20 years. Well, if you were to do anything about Howard Stern is that you know in the beginning he was transformer extreme. Like there was nothing he would not try, he had nothing he would not say, he would push all the boundaries. Well, now the the observation that's been made about him is he's gone the other extreme to where now he's very much a stabilizer in his life. So in my mind, that's that's what can happen from my perspective, perhaps unconsciously, if one expression is too extreme, almost always life will come along and you'll begin to express the other side of it. I think we almost always do that as we grow up. Some would say he he grew up and embraced uh a value system that makes sense to him. Well, that's back to shut up grow up. It's like, yeah, the transformer needs to grow up to the but they have a lot of fun and they push boundaries and they make things happen differently than what the masculine dynamic would do. They would bring order and it would look like they build buildings, whereas the transformer would probably uh Uh build the building differently, put the wall over here or the roof over here. It would be different. And that's why, again, back to our bias, which is how do you integrate all those energies? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Yeah. You described a little bit the um attractions that we sometimes have, the things that we might be lacking, we are attracted to. I think the more obvious ones, though I think it happens with all of these personality approaches, but the stabilizing masculine energy often attracted to the transforming feminine energy, embodying all of those things that the stabilizing masculine is intrigued by but doesn't really have. It comes across as mysterious. And how do you see the world that way? And there's this attraction to it. And that attraction is externalized. The challenge then is do the internal work of finding the voice in you that you're attracted to that can bring more balance to your life. And conversely, that the transformative feminine voice in somebody attracted toward an organizer that can take care of all of those details that that person doesn't have time for.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Right. And then to our larger point that we keep making over and over, which is if I don't do that, then I will become if I'm this the uh stabilizer with the transformer, I'll become exhausted because they will wear me out. And then I'll get so frustrated that they'll try to drag them into therapy, basically have the therapist help them see how important it is to not at 45 still want to do crazy stuff or still want to get high all the time or whatever, whatever that whatever it is. But again, the natural attraction for the other two is the initiator and the responder. Right. Because the initiator will go out and build a kingdom, and the responder will absolutely enable that and make excuses and say you need to go to work. That's great. And they stay home and take care of the family, again, to be a little stereotypical. But again, that has an end point where typically the responder is exhausted because they haven't gotten back from the masculine dynamic that they wanted, which was tended to and cared for. Remember, we give away what we want, and again, that's the extreme. So when a woman comes in, typically it's a woman who's depressed at 45 or 50. I will tell you it's because she's given and given and given, and she hasn't gotten back what she wanted, and that's really hard for her to acknowledge because she thinks she's doing it genuinely and that she didn't expect anything back from it. And they it they would rather get depressed or anxious than acknowledge that, which is fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yeah. Wow, that's a great example. And I will add, I know you've already referenced this, but I have worked with couples where that strong um initiating energy is the female in the relationship. Yes. And the nurture is the masculine, and the dynamic's the same. It's just being expressed through different individuals within the relationship. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

And I think that's happening more and more, like the stay-at-home husband who takes care of the family and takes care of the kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

And in in same-sex relationships, the dynamic exists.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

Absolutely true. There's no real difference. And I do think it's it that's good to re-emphasize the fact that these are all a part of all of us. Right. You know, I have a bias where I talk in specifics as far as male-female, but it really is inside of every individual. How do we access it? How do we know where to go at any given moment? And also realizing that we're a little older. So if I'm, you know, 30, 35, uh trying to sort all this stuff out. I have a couple right now that are in their late 20s. They have grasp a hold of this, and it makes so much sense to them that they're just so excited about how it plays out every day. And they have a pretty good balance now, but they can see how it can get so much better when they understand it more specifically.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Well, that's it for this episode of Therapy, Coaching, and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to follow, rate, or share it with somebody who might appreciate it as well. Thanks for being here, and until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself.

SPEAKER_01 26:36

That was good. I like that last part. Say curi stay curious. Um can you teach curiosity? Uh wow, that's a great question. I don't know. That's just it it's almost a built-in trait.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Yeah. Wow, I I guess I'd never asked myself that question. I I do think maybe if you give maybe uh in contrast, so it it sets it up in context, meaning that instead of being critical or afraid of it, what if you were curious about it? So in a dream, you've got um an image that's frightening. Um instead of focusing on the fear, what if you were just curious about why it showed up, what it's trying to communicate? So you give you curiosity in contrast to what it's keeping you from doing it.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Right. It'd be a way of almost uh identifying curiosity for people that doesn't they don't naturally identify it.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Well, that's it for this episode of Therapy Coaching and Dreams. If you're enjoying the podcast, we'd love for you to share it with someone who might appreciate it as well. And if you are interested in working with either of the co hosts, you can do so at their respective websites, Dr. Shalley at AFCcounselors.com, or Dr. Kelly at inyourdreams.coach. Thanks for being here. And until next time, keep growing, stay curious, and take good care of yourself. Yeah, no, it's good stuff.